NationStates Jolt Archive

Please dont take this thread as an anti-israel rant.
I truly believe that Israel had the right to defend itself from Hezbollah.
Unfortunatly I also believe that Israel has been often wrong in its treatment of the palestinian people which I think has contributed to Irael being attacked.
Israel needed to do something but they went about it the wrong way...just look at these figures from the BBC(I know some people believe they are biased-the labanese think they are pro israel and israel think the bias goes in the other direction-so that means its probably not biased)
DEAD
Israel
116 soldiers
(Israeli Defence Force)
43 civilians
(Israeli police)
Lebanon
1,109
(Lebanese government)
28 Lebanese soldiers (not in conflict with Israelis)
(Agence France Presse, 6 August)

Hezbollah - there are no reliable figures
Israeli military estimate more than 530
Hezbollah and fellow Shia militant group Amal say 55 fighters have been killed
(Agence France Presse, 5 August)




INJURED
Israel
Serious - 32
Moderate - 44
Light - 614
Treated for shock - 1,985
(Israeli police) Lebanon
3,697
(Lebanese government)



DISPLACED
Israel
500,000 approx (50% of population in the north of Israel)
(Human Rights Watch) Lebanon
915,762 (approx 25% of Lebanese population)
(Lebanese government)



DAMAGE
Israel
More than 300 buildings, including houses and factories.
(Israeli police) Lebanon
6,900 houses/apartments
900 factories, markets, farms and other commercial buildings

29 airports, ports, water- and sewage-treatment plants, dams and electrical plants

23 fuel stations

145 bridges and over-passes

600km of roads
(Lebanese government)

Environment - It is estimated that the initial clean up of a huge oil spill caused by the Israeli bombing of a power plant will cost $64m (£34m)
(UN)




ORDNANCE
Israel
3,699 Hezbollah rockets have landed in Israel
(Israeli police) Lebanon
7,000 air strike targets hit
(Israeli military)



FINANCIAL IMPACT
Israel
70% of businesses closed in northern Israel
(Federation of Israeli Chambers of Commerce)
Tourism - expected to reach NIS 1bn ($230m)
(Governor, Bank of Israel)

Total cost of war (includes military spending and lost GDP) - up to NIS 23bn ($4.8bn)
(Israeli Ministry of Finance, Haaretz newspaper 13 August)

Direct and indirect damage - NIS 5 billion (US$1.1bn)
(Israeli Ministry of Finance, Haaretz newspaper 13 August)
Lebanon
Repairs to buildings and infrastructure and rebuilding expected to reach $4bn
(Lebanese government)
Tourism - Lebanon's tourist industry has been decimated. Tourist is estimated to earn Lebanon $2.5bn (£1.3bn)
(Lebanese governmet)


so,two questions really(dont want any flaming please)
1)do you think Israel went over the top?
2)what could Israel have done differently/better/at all?

I personaly beileve that air stikes resulted in the deaths of many civilians and have just made the situation work.Israel have one of the most effective secret services in the world(good at assasinations I am told)could they not have infiltrated Hezbollah and taken them down effectivly without becoming a recruting device for potential terrorists?I dont know-maybe?

prepare for a class 5 sh!t hurricane

Nope. Who kidnapped soldiers first? Who fired rockets over the border first?

-snip-
Yes, we know. Most of us are at least vaguely aware of what's going on.

http://limewoody.wordpress.com/files/2006/03/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again2.jpg

http://limewoody.wordpress.com/files/2006/03/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again2.jpg
one would think there were enough threads already...

I'm getting tired of repeating myself

Not at all. Israel didn't get a chance to finish the job.

We know that civilian casualties were inflated by Hezbollah. Israel didn't do anywhere near the ammount of damage to Hezbollah and it's supporters that it should have been allowed to do. Southern Lebanon should be a smoking ruin strewn with the bodies of Hezbollah fighters and anyone who chose to stay behind and support them as human shields. Then we could get a lasting peace as Hezbolla would be weakened, Iran would be chastened, and Israel would be secure.

I doubt it. You seem to need a few muslim bashing threads to get you through the day.
Every time I read one by Ocean, I make one.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself

I doubt it. You seem to need a few muslim bashing threads to get you through the day.

Every time I read one by Ocean, I make one.

O I think even if his acne was to clear up and his crap to cease you'd still be there...plugging away.....

There seem to be quite a few terrorists in the Middle East, including some calling themselves "Israel". The 'conflict' (remember- it's not a war, 'cause GWB says so!) is the most futile in humanity's history and can only end in trouble for the rest of us. I read a newspaper article about a forthcoming match of Liverpool away to Maccabi Haifa (based in Tel Aviv). The game has been moved to the Ukraine capital of Kiev and the Israeli media were questioning the manager if he was scared to travel to Israel. Honestly! The whole area is a mess! I feel that other nations should stay out of it if they know what's good for them or risk getting their fingers burned. And their hands, arms, bodies, families, houses, cities, etc. Of course, they don't know what's good for them and so the only thing that will happen is that Israel will buy weapons from the West to use against the 'terrorists' and the Jihadists will buy weapons from Islamic countries to use against the 'terrorists'. All-in-all, it's "The war on terror" 2, Humans 0.

Gone over the top? Yes.

Done better? Win the international PR-war by avoiding needless and careless collateral damage, allowing relief agancies to work safely in the area, better intelligence... That's just of the top of my head.

Not at all. Israel didn't get a chance to finish the job.

We know that civilian casualties were inflated by Hezbollah. Israel didn't do anywhere near the ammount of damage to Hezbollah and it's supporters that it should have been allowed to do. Southern Lebanon should be a smoking ruin strewn with the bodies of Hezbollah fighters and anyone who chose to stay behind and support them as human shields. Then we could get a lasting peace as Hezbolla would be weakened, Iran would be chastened, and Israel would be secure.

"and it's (sic) supporters" = every single Lebanese Shi'a man, woman and child living south of the Litani? They all deserve to die.

See what I mean....


Israel lost because they didnt destroy Hezbollah ...all praise GOD !


Israel went over the top...


MAKE UP YOUR FUCKIN MINDS ALREADY :p

Israel went way overboard. They turned all of Lebanon against them, killed 1,100 people and spilled oil into the sea.

Nope. Who kidnapped soldiers first? Who fired rockets over the border first?
There are limits to retaliation.

one would think there were enough threads already...

I'm getting tired of repeating myself
That [ragheads] are all evil? You do that in every thread anyway.

The Middle East would be much more peaceful if Israel ceased to be.

The Middle East would be much more peaceful if Israel ceased to be.

I don't think we should just destroy a country and displace over 5 million p people just to put a band-aid on the situation.

besides thats speculation its nt guarenteed, imagine if Jordan, Syria, and palestine all make a grab for the forfeit land

The Middle East would be much more peaceful if Israel ceased to be.

The middle east would be much more peacefull if the Arabs ceased to be .


I dont see Israel talking about " wiping " a country off the face of the earth..or invading its neighbors without being attacked first , or state sponsored terrorism...or walking on buses with a bomb vest ...or crashing airliners into buildings ...or gassing Kurds or killing shiites and putting them in mass graves ....etc. etc. etc.

After israel is destroyed WHO is next ?

The middle east would be much more peacefull if the Arabs ceased to be .


I dont see Israel talking about " wiping " a country off the face of the earth..or invading its neighbors without being attacked first , or state sponsored terrorism...or walking on buses with a bomb vest ...or crashing airliners into buildings ...or gassing Kurds or killing shiites and putting them in mass graves ....etc. etc. etc.

After israel is destroyed WHO is next ?


you know what would stop war in its tracks? if we just wiped humanity off the face of the planet

I dont see Israel talking about " wiping " a country off the face of the earth


Really? The extreme right-wing religious parties in Israel do want to expel all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. They say it straightforwardly.

I don't think we should just destroy a country and displace over 5 million p people just to put a band-aid on the situation.

besides thats speculation its nt guarenteed, imagine if Jordan, Syria, and palestine all make a grab for the forfeit land

So? It's not like the Arab nations are going to go to war for a strip of land that doesn't have any oil on it.

So? It's not like the Arab nations are going to go to war for a strip of land that doesn't have any oil on it.
Are you kidding me? How many wars have they fought already to take Israel away from the Jews?

Are you kidding me? How many wars have they fought already to take Israel away from the Jews?

They were fighting against Israel, not for the land.

Are you kidding me? How many wars have they fought already to take Israel away from the Jews?

The other Arabs don't give a damn about the Palestinians. They fought wars with Israel when it suited their own interests. I'm sure that Syria, Egypt and Jordan just wanted to control a new Palestine themselves, and they thought they could achieve that.

At this point, though, they won't attack Israel. They've got too much to lose and hardly anything to gain from it.

The other Arabs don't give a damn about the Palestinians. They fought wars with Israel when it suited their own interests. I'm sure that Syria, Egypt and Jordan just wanted to control a new Palestine themselves, and they thought they could achieve that.

At this point, though, they won't attack Israel. They've got too much to lose and hardly anything to gain from it.

I thought Egypt just wanted the Sinai Peninsula back. *shrugs*

I thought Egypt just wanted the Sinai Peninsula back. *shrugs*

Okay, there was that. But the Sinai was a part of Egypt to begin with.

Okay, there was that. But the Sinai was a part of Egypt to begin with.

Before they invaded the first time.

Before they invaded the first time.

Before who invaded the first time?

I thought Egypt just wanted the Sinai Peninsula back. *shrugs*
It's funny how wars redefine territory. Usually the victors get to keep territory, but it seems that Israel should be denied this traditional spoil.

Nope..

Now if Israel stole some Lebanese citizens and strapped them to the front of their tanks, and also had groups of Lebanese civilians in a circle around their solders so Hezebollah would have to shoot them, if they borrowed Civilian aircraft, (With the people still on board) to bomb Lebanon, and if they just pointed in one direction and fired Artillery without bothering to aim...

They'd just end up on equal morals as Hezbollah! :D

It's funny how wars redefine territory. Usually the victors get to keep territory, but it seems that Israel should be denied this traditional spoil.

Is it your opinion that they should be allowed to keep Gaza and the West Bank, then, after they occupied them in the 1948 conflict? I'm not trying to start a thing, I'm sincerely curious about your ideas.

if they borrowed Civilian aircraft, (With the people still on board) to bomb Lebanon


I think you're confusing Hezbollah with al-Qaeda, chief. As far as I know the former has never done that. Not they they wouldn't if they got the chance.

It's funny how wars redefine territory. Usually the victors get to keep territory, but it seems that Israel should be denied this traditional spoil.

I seem to find that most people believe the USSR shouldn't have kept the territory it took throughout eastern europe during WW2 either. Keeping territory seized through battle is an out of date idea.

Before who invaded the first time?

Before Egypt invaded Israel.

You know, by sponsoring fedayeen guerillas and basing them in the Sinai? Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

"and it's (sic) supporters" = every single Lebanese Shi'a man, woman and child living south of the Litani? They all deserve to die.
If they're willing to act as human shields for Hezbollah, if they are willing to provide money and recruits to that terrorist organization, yes. If they're innocent shi'a who just happen to live in an unlucky place, no. Are you saying every Shi'a is a Hezbollah supporter?

They were fighting against Israel, not for the land.
Oh, they were only trying to kill Jews. That makes it all better.

Oh, they were only trying to kill Jews. That makes it all better.

Israel=/=judaism

If they're willing to act as human shields for Hezbollah, if they are willing to provide money and recruits to that terrorist organization, yes. If they're innocent shi'a who just happen to live in an unlucky place, no. Are you saying every Shi'a is a Hezbollah supporter?

No, I was under the impression that you were saying every Shi'a south of the Litani is a Hezbollah supporter, from your comment:


Southern Lebanon should be a smoking ruin strewn with the bodies of Hezbollah fighters and anyone who chose to stay behind and support them as human shields.


How can the non-Hezbollah Shi'a live in a smoking ruin? What about the Christians of the South? Rebuilding is a hard prospect, considering that the Shi'a are one of the poorest sects in Lebanon.

Israel=/=judaism
If they weren't trying to get the land back then they clearly were only trying to kill the Jews who lived there.

No, I was under the impression that you were saying every Shi'a south of the Litani is a Hezbollah supporter, from your comment:



How can the non-Hezbollah Shi'a live in a smoking ruin? What about the Christians of the South? Rebuilding is a hard prospect, considering that the Shi'a are one of the poorest sects in Lebanon.
War is a bitch. Rebuild or move.

Israel=/=judaism

When Hezbollah leaders claim they want all Jews to move to Isreal to make it easier to kill them, it does.

I think you're confusing Hezbollah with al-Qaeda, chief. As far as I know the former has never done that. Not they they wouldn't if they got the chance.
I wasn't talking about them crashing the planes. I meant strapping actual bombs to the bottom of the planes then dropping them.

War is a bitch. Rebuild or move.

Why didnt they say that to Kuwait instead of fighting the 1st Gulf war?

When Hezbollah leaders claim they want all Jews to move to Isreal to make it easier to kill them, it does.

hezbollah=/=egypt

Why didnt they say that to Kuwait instead of fighting the 1st Gulf war?
I wish they had. I liked Saddam. He was usefull.

Nope..

Now if Israel stole some Lebanese citizens and strapped them to the front of their tanks, and also had groups of Lebanese civilians in a circle around their solders so Hezebollah would have to shoot them, if they borrowed Civilian aircraft, (With the people still on board) to bomb Lebanon, and if they just pointed in one direction and fired Artillery without bothering to aim...

They'd just end up on equal morals as Hezbollah! :D

You mean a bit like this kind of thing here?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp

War is a bitch. Rebuild or move.

Great. Then they can move to the Chouf or Mt. Lebanon, which have practically no Shi'a and are essentially different countries? Or maybe they can move to Tripoli in the north of Lebanon. I'm sure an almost entirely Sunni city will be thrilled to have a massive influx of Shi'a refugees. Or they can move to...well, the Bekaa is the last place, but that's pretty crowded as it is.

The point is that Lebanon is like seventeen different countries - one for each sect. And the Shi'a have possibly the least mobility of any of them. You might do some research on Lebanese geography. It's really an interesting case.

Great. Then they can move to the Chouf or Mt. Lebanon, which have practically no Shi'a and are essentially different countries? Or maybe they can move to Tripoli in the north of Lebanon. I'm sure an almost entirely Sunni city will be thrilled to have a massive influx of Shi'a refugees. Or they can move to...well, the Bekaa is the last place, but that's pretty crowded as it is.

The point is that Lebanon is like seventeen different countries - one for each sect. And the Shi'a have possibly the least mobility of any of them. You might do some research on Lebanese geography. It's really an interesting case.
Not my problem. Not Israel's problem either. Israel suffered an unprovoked attack from across the border, where a militia bent on destroying them had massed men and rockets. Israel's job is to keep Israel safe and secure.

Not my problem. Not Israel's problem either. Israel suffered an unprovoked attack from across the border, where a militia bent on destroying them had massed men and rockets. Israel's job is to keep Israel safe and secure.

Well, that's all I wanted to know. Thanks.

Not my problem. Not Israel's problem either. Israel suffered an unprovoked attack from across the border, where a militia bent on destroying them had massed men and rockets. Israel's job is to keep Israel safe and secure.

As well as defoliate Bedouin crops and build colonies outside its borders.