NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/world/europe/22germany.html?_r=1&&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

“People thought for the longest time that Germany would be safe because we didn’t send troops to Iraq,” said Johannes Schmalz, the president of the agency for the protection of the constitution — a rough equivalent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation — in the state of Baden-Wurttemberg.

“This presumption is wrong,” he said. “The enemy of violent Islamists is the Western world as a whole.”

and

FRANKFURT, Aug. 21 — The disclosure that a botched plot to bomb two German trains last month involved a 21-year-old Lebanese man has punctured the sense of immunity many Germans felt from the Islamic terrorist attacks that have haunted other European countries.

The bombing plot, which has led to the arrest of the Lebanese suspect in northern Germany and an intense manhunt for a second suspect, is also reshaping a politically charged debate in Berlin over how much latitude to give law enforcement authorities in fighting terrorism.

On Monday, Chancellor Angela Merkel reaffirmed her support for expanded use of closed-circuit cameras in train stations and other public places. A camera caught grainy images of two men with suitcases boarding trains in Cologne, and the police arrested one, identified as Youssef Mohammed E. H., on Saturday, a day after they broadcast the footage.

The suitcases, stuffed with propane bombs and left on the trains, failed to explode because of a “technical defect,” according to the German federal prosecutor. That close call has led Germans to rethink their historic reluctance to measures like video surveillance and extensive database searches.

“We haven’t had this serious a threat since 9/11,” said Rolf Tophoven, a prominent terrorism expert. “It’s clear we have people in Germany who are willing to carry out a huge and harmful attack.”

Lucky, lucky, lucky.

And there are those who still think that the only people that Islamic terrorists are pissed at are the US and UK. Or that I'm crazy to say that they want to destroy the West, not just the US.

Looks like professionals agree with me.

This news broke before I left Germany. Apparently the alleged killer of a child actress was more important to American media :rolleyes:

Lucky, lucky, lucky.

And there are those who still think that the only people that Islamic terrorists are pissed at are the US and UK. Or that I'm crazy to say that they want to destroy the West, not just the US.

Looks like professionals agree with me.


What? You're an idiot. Of course the militant extremist Muslims want to attack the West, including all of Europe. Al-Qaeda has never said "We hate America and Britain, but you guys in France and Germany are cool with us." We all remember the bombing of the train in Madrid. Why the hell do you put words in people's mouths?

What? You're an idiot. Of course the militant extremist Muslims want to attack the West, including all of Europe. Al-Qaeda has never said "We hate America and Britain, but you guys in France and Germany are cool with us." We all remember the bombing of the train in Madrid. Why the hell do you put words in people's mouths?

There are some people who reckon that if the US and the UK adopt the same foreign policy stances as France and Germany the risk of attack by Islamic extremists will evaporate.

I've watched the root of all evil though, so I know this is rubbish.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/world/europe/22germany.html?_r=1&&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin



and



Lucky, lucky, lucky.

And there are those who still think that the only people that Islamic terrorists are pissed at are the US and UK. Or that I'm crazy to say that they want to destroy the West, not just the US.

Looks like professionals agree with me.

Good. I am glad that Germany finally realized that the war on terror affects them too. It took them long enough.

What? You're an idiot. Of course the militant extremist Muslims want to attack the West, including all of Europe. Al-Qaeda has never said "We hate America and Britain, but you guys in France and Germany are cool with us." We all remember the bombing of the train in Madrid. Why the hell do you put words in people's mouths?

In whose mouths am I putting words. People say if only we did what the terrorists asked, they would leave us alone like they leave Spain alone.

Day by day, we're finding out how wrong they are.

In whose mouths am I putting words. People say if only we did what the terrorists asked, they would leave us alone like they leave Spain alone.

Day by day, we're finding out how wrong they are.

As Canada found out.

A nice palestianian Imam explained it in an unguarded moment: the west must be attacked until it mends its ways and stops allowing its women to behave the way they do.

Only then can there be peace.

In whose mouths am I putting words. People say if only we did what the terrorists asked, they would leave us alone like they leave Spain alone.

Day by day, we're finding out how wrong they are.

If people really have said this, then I disagree. "What the terrorists ask" is essentially for all of us to commit suicide. I think that people have instead said "maybe we should modify our Middle East policy somewhat in order to undermine the terrorists' support", but that you just hear what you want to hear.

That's what I get for checking back into NS at 5:30am. :rolleyes:

Good. I am glad that Germany finally realized that the war on terror affects them too. It took them long enough.
What the fuck are you even on about? Terror affects us? You don't say! The holy fucking "War on Terror"? You can keep your paranoid bullshit, thank you very much.

And as for "Germany Wakes Up"? No wonder this recent event is "reshaping a politically charged debate in Berlin over how much latitude to give law enforcement authorities in fighting terrorism", as the article says. Our new governing party has been keen on increasing video surveillance and wiretapping and whatnot for ages, of course the very first thing you hear from them on the topic is "Fuck yeah, finally we can get that surveillance we've always wanted!". Funnily enough, they only said that after the footage turned up and it was determined to be a Lebanese man. Guess they knew that surveillance thing hadn't been flying so well before, but hey - when we can tell people it's teh evil Islamic terrorists, they can't say no, can they?

:rolleyes:

This news broke before I left Germany. Apparently the alleged killer of a child actress was more important to American media :rolleyes:
I hate the fact that I'm even able to correct you on this, but it really goes to show how irrelevant and out of control the corporate media is in America. She wasn't a child actress, she was just a rich white girl and she died ten years ago. Yes yes personal tragedy and all that, but it's not news, neither is anything involving her killer that doesn't effect the larger world.

I hate the fact that I'm even able to correct you on this, but it really goes to show how irrelevant and out of control the corporate media is in America. She wasn't a child actress, she was just a rich white girl and she died ten years ago. Yes yes personal tragedy and all that, but it's not news, neither is anything involving her killer that doesn't effect the larger world.

The alleged killer was arrested in Thailand and was thinking about a sex change operation. :D

What? You're an idiot. Of course the militant extremist Muslims want to attack the West, including all of Europe. Al-Qaeda has never said "We hate America and Britain, but you guys in France and Germany are cool with us." We all remember the bombing of the train in Madrid. Why the hell do you put words in people's mouths?
Furthermore, at the time of the large attacks in Spain, the Spanish military was deployed in Iraq.

Furthermore, at the time of the large attacks in Spain, the Spanish military was deployed in Iraq.

And then fled after more threats of violence. Cowards.

The alleged killer was arrested in Thailand and was thinking about a sex change operation. :D

hmm.

Did you also know that he ate fried shrimp and drank champagne on his extradition flight? It was all over the news here. So interesting.

hmm.

Did you also know that he ate fried shrimp and drank champagne on his extradition flight? It was all over the news here. So interesting.

See the thing was, he was still technically a free man till he landed in California. I did not care what he ate, I am glad that the bastard is behind bars where that son of a bitch belongs.

See the thing was, he was still technically a free man till he landed in California. I did not care what he ate, I am glad that the bastard is behind bars where that son of a bitch belongs.

Yes. It's also pathetically non-event.

He flew business class. I imagine he did that because he was escorted. Whoever extradited him - the federal government I presume - most likely still has a policy of buying business class tickets for its employees.

And because he was in business class, he got teh business class food.

I haven't bothered to check any of this out, because I don't care. But I am satisfied that there is nothing to this. Unlike, apparently, 90% of the piles of clothes that surround me.

This news broke before I left Germany. Apparently the alleged killer of a child actress was more important to American media :rolleyes:

just as long as you understand the difference between american media and american people.

i hate the media. i hate many actions the media takes. but yet i need it to know what is happening in the world

It's a creature of the 24 hour news cycle, and the intense competition of American media sources.

Now I am getting very scared this is freaking me out, serious. Theres gonna be a genocide maybe as big as the holocaust, Im serious I can visualise it now armed gangs driving around in pickups, nabbing brown men and lynching them.

Yes. It's also pathetically non-event.

He flew business class. I imagine he did that because he was escorted. Whoever extradited him - the federal government I presume - most likely still has a policy of buying business class tickets for its employees.

And because he was in business class, he got teh business class food.

I haven't bothered to check any of this out, because I don't care. But I am satisfied that there is nothing to this. Unlike, apparently, 90% of the piles of clothes that surround me.

I heard one theory that if the alleged had mentioned anything to his captors about his crime while on the flight, the police could later claim that he wasn't under their custody because of his business-class treatment. Ingenious, if it's true, but the defense attorney would certainly challenge it.

That's the only interesting part of the story.

Now I am getting very scared this is freaking me out, serious. Theres gonna be a genocide maybe as big as the holocaust, Im serious I can visualise it now armed gangs driving around in pickups, nabbing brown men and lynching them.
Where the hell is this coming from?

Is it just me or does this just seem very ironic? After all, the last time Germany thought it would be safe by staying out of the way of horrible, nasty people, it created the third reich.

Now I am getting very scared this is freaking me out, serious. Theres gonna be a genocide maybe as big as the holocaust, Im serious I can visualise it now armed gangs driving around in pickups, nabbing brown men and lynching them.

http://paulmccain.worldmagblog.com/paulmccain/slippery.jpg

Watch out for that slope. It's rather slick.

I heard one theory that if the alleged had mentioned anything to his captors about his crime while on the flight, the police could later claim that he wasn't under their custody because of his business-class treatment. Ingenious, if it's true, but the defense attorney would certainly challenge it.

That's the only interesting part of the story.

Thing was, he was not arrested till he landed in California! He was also not extradited to the US. Thailand deported him.

I heard one theory that if the alleged had mentioned anything to his captors about his crime while on the flight, the police could later claim that he wasn't under their custody because of his business-class treatment. Ingenious, if it's true, but the defense attorney would certainly challenge it.

That's the only interesting part of the story.

That is interesting. But I doubt it's true tho'. I mean, I imagine it was pretty clear he was in custody, and I doubt they let him get up and walk around unescorted etc. Sounds more like idle media speculation. (Which is sort of what I am doing here, but I don't get paid for it, so pooh :p ).


(That's sort of the reason I don't watch much TV outside of Battlestar Galactica and Doctor Who).

Thing was, he was not arrested till he landed in California! He was also not extradited to the US. Thailand deported him.

Ah. So the Thai's paid for his ticket.

Well, mystery solved. Thx.

It took them long enough.
Considering that German troops are in Afghanistan as well as the Horn of Africa, that they are helping to train Iraqi security forces, that the BND has been working against AQ for just as long as the other security services, that the Verfassungschutz has expelled a number of Islamic clerics from the country for hate speech etc etc...

That's what I get for checking back into NS at 5:30am. :rolleyes:

What the fuck are you even on about? Terror affects us? You don't say! The holy fucking "War on Terror"? You can keep your paranoid bullshit, thank you very much.

And as for "Germany Wakes Up"? No wonder this recent event is "reshaping a politically charged debate in Berlin over how much latitude to give law enforcement authorities in fighting terrorism", as the article says. Our new governing party has been keen on increasing video surveillance and wiretapping and whatnot for ages, of course the very first thing you hear from them on the topic is "Fuck yeah, finally we can get that surveillance we've always wanted!". Funnily enough, they only said that after the footage turned up and it was determined to be a Lebanese man. Guess they knew that surveillance thing hadn't been flying so well before, but hey - when we can tell people it's teh evil Islamic terrorists, they can't say no, can they?

:rolleyes:

I concur, of course, both in your assessment of the situation and in telling Corneliu to keep his, as you so aptly call it, "paranoid bullshit."

Two relevant articles from Spiegel:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,432746,00.html - interesting facts about the suspect himself.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,432689,00.html - the reaction from some of the main newspapers in Germany...very much relevant to the OP.

And then fled after more threats of violence. Cowards.
Back to your word of choice huh? You should be grateful that they even helped you in the first place, in Bush's War of Errors.

You love that word "coward" but yet you will not risk your life:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10755096&postcount=260

Good. I am glad that Germany finally realized that the war on terror affects them too. It took them long enough.

Actually, Germany has understood this fact, and has been fighting the war on terror, since at least (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Summer_Olympics) 1972. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9) (In case Wikipedia articles describing well known historical events are, for whatever reason, insufficient, here's the official website: http://www.bundespolizei.de/cln_029/nn_483418/DE/BPOLP__West/GSG9/gsg9__node.html__nnn=true :D )

They, along with other European states, also realize that the war on terror does not require or necessitate bending over backwards for the United States or its foreign policy (including the current debacle in Iraq).

They, along with other European states, also realize that the war on terror does not require or necessitate bending over backwards for the United States or its foreign policy (including the current debacle in Iraq).

It is this that is problematic - the reluctance to display proper obesiance before the Imperial Caesar.

"Soft on terror" is a euphemism for "insufficiently servile."

Every time Germany wakes up, he bashes his head against the low celing and goes back to sleep.

Actually, Germany has understood this fact, and has been fighting the war on terror, since at least (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Summer_Olympics) 1972. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9) (In case Wikipedia articles describing well known historical events are, for whatever reason, insufficient, here's the official website: http://www.bundespolizei.de/cln_029/nn_483418/DE/BPOLP__West/GSG9/gsg9__node.html__nnn=true :D )

They, along with other European states, also realize that the war on terror does not require or necessitate bending over backwards for the United States or its foreign policy (including the current debacle in Iraq).

The difference is that the 1972 attacks weren't directed at Germans; they just happened to be in Germany. If the Olympics had been in France, they'd still have happened.

Every time Germany wakes up, he bashes his head against the low celing and goes back to sleep.
That is either really silly, or really deep, depending how you look at it. :D

The difference is that the 1972 attacks weren't directed at Germans; they just happened to be in Germany. If the Olympics had been in France, they'd still have happened.
He probably should've used a different example, namely the Red Army Faction. Britain had the IRA, Spain ETA. Italy the Red Brigades, France the Algerians.

Fact of the matter is that terrorism has been a very real issue (not to say 'threat') in Europe for a long time. That it hasn't resulted in a global campaign of ideology and (pseudo-)religious Armageddon fantasies is probably due to a mix of less relative power and a different approach to these issues generally.

Germany wakes up = Deutschland erwache.

Now where did i hear that before?

Hm. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_songs#Deutschland_erwache)

Good. I am glad that Germany finally realized that the war on terror affects them too. It took them long enough.

Right. That's why they were right among the first to send troops to Afghanistan... cause they thought it didn't concern them at all. :rolleyes:

He probably should've used a different example, namely the Red Army Faction. Britain had the IRA, Spain ETA. Italy the Red Brigades, France the Algerians.


I was attempting to find a single event especially well known all around the world, comparable in that sense to 9/11 (particularly as concerns the development of new anti-terrorist agencies/forces/etc). But yes, invoking different examples was basically the purpose of the words "at least" in "...since at least 1972." :D

The difference is that the 1972 attacks weren't directed at Germans; they just happened to be in Germany. If the Olympics had been in France, they'd still have happened.

Whether the specific hostages taken were German is irrevelant. The kidnappers obviously violated the law and ultimately set into motion events which cost many people their lives, including police. Germany was directly attacked. One does not simply "happen" to engage in violent attacks with no regard to society, regardless of where it "happens" to take place.

At any rate, GSG 9, its international reach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9#Tasks) and cooperation with other counter-terrorist forces, and its reputation for being among the best counter-terrorism forces on the planet (the team representing GSG 9 swept all events in the 2005 World SWAT Series, also winning the 2006 competition (http://www.swatseries.com/html/History.php)), didn't all just go away when the Olympics ended.

And there are those who still think that the only people that Islamic terrorists are pissed at are the US and UK. Or that I'm crazy to say that they want to destroy the West, not just the US.

Can't you ever make a thread without the aid of a straw man?

Good. I am glad that Germany finally realized that the war on terror affects them too. It took them long enough.


That still doesnt mean they should have supported America's invasion of Iraq.

Good. I am glad that Germany finally realized that the war on terror affects them too. It took them long enough.
Don't they have troops in Afghanistan? That was five years ago.

A nice palestianian Imam explained it in an unguarded moment: the west must be attacked until it mends its ways and stops allowing its women to behave the way they do.
That's scary stuff. If it comes to it I'll give my life for feminism.

If people really have said this, then I disagree. "What the terrorists ask" is essentially for all of us to commit suicide. I think that people have instead said "maybe we should modify our Middle East policy somewhat in order to undermine the terrorists' support", but that you just hear what you want to hear.
True. Starting wars that you know will increase support for Islamism is stupid.

And then fled after more threats of violence. Cowards.
They left because their people didn't want them there. Democracy.

Now I am getting very scared this is freaking me out, serious. Theres gonna be a genocide maybe as big as the holocaust, Im serious I can visualise it now armed gangs driving around in pickups, nabbing brown men and lynching them.
That's not going to happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/world/europe/22germany.html?_r=1&&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

Lucky, lucky, lucky.

And there are those who still think that the only people that Islamic terrorists are pissed at are the US and UK. Or that I'm crazy to say that they want to destroy the West, not just the US.

Looks like professionals agree with me.

Reading this and other articles it seems to me that these terrorist had not a religious but a political motivation. According to the sources both were Lebanese and one of them had recently lost his brother in the Lebanon conflict… Presumably the attack was meant as a political statement, with relatively few casualties… Agreed, every casualty is one too many, but we must distinguish these “classical” terror attacks from attacks in New York, London, and Madrid that were intended to make as many victims as possible.

Consequently, classifying these terrorists as Islamic terrorists is not helpful to understand and prevent attacks of this kind…



On Islamist terror:

Dear misguided Deep Kimchi, Islamist groups like al-Qaida do not intend to destroy the west…
The west is far too useful for their goals…

Do you really think one can destroy the entire US by bombing the WTC or other terrorist attacks?
Of course you don’t…

Their goal is not to destroy the west, but to bring together the divided East. Attacks and counter attacks are necessary to rally follow Muslims behind their flag, in order to create a global Ummah and a United Islamic state in the Middle East, ranging from India to Morocco.

Sadly, the reaction of the US administration has so far been helpful to their
cause
:(

I hate the fact that I'm even able to correct you on this, but it really goes to show how irrelevant and out of control the corporate media is in America. She wasn't a child actress, she was just a rich white girl and she died ten years ago. Yes yes personal tragedy and all that, but it's not news, neither is anything involving her killer that doesn't effect the larger world.Indeed. I haven't been paying much attention to it since I'm busy navigating the bureaucracy at my university at the moment, but I managed to pick up a few things here and there.

The fact that the case is being debated in this thread is so ironic it stings...
just as long as you understand the difference between american media and american people.

i hate the media. i hate many actions the media takes. but yet i need it to know what is happening in the world
Yup. The media is a business that seeks to gain wealth by increasing its ratings. That's why they'll show what they think most people want to watch and show it in a way they think most people want to watch it. It's sad that this results in pitching news so low most educated people would trip over it...

I've discovered that newspapers are the more reliable sources here. Not necessarily because they won't spin things as much, but because they have the space to cover more than a short TV program.

Yup. The media is a business that seeks to gain wealth by increasing its ratings. That's why they'll show what they think most people want to watch and show it in a way they think most people want to watch it. It's sad that this results in pitching news so low most educated people would trip over it...

I've discovered that newspapers are the more reliable sources here. Not necessarily because they won't spin things as much, but because they have the space to cover more than a short TV program.

Right, read a decent newspaper for once people!!

No tabloids!!

:D

The fact that the case is being debated in this thread is so ironic it stings...
Truly. I've tried to get people to switch to a no-more tears formula for irony, but they don't listen.

Whether the specific hostages taken were German is irrevelant.

Actually, it is. If Germans aren't being targeted, they can delude themselves into feelings of security.

And then fled after more threats of violence. Cowards.Funny how the new Spanish government's policies stop terrorism without shooting anybody. Unless you want to pull some bullshit argument that ETA isn't a terrorist group. But hey, if cowardice gets terrorists to give up violence without having to make any real sacrifices to them then bring it on.

Actually, it is. If Germans aren't being targeted, they can delude themselves into feelings of security.Then again, the RAF* did target Germans.

*Rote Armee Fraktion, not Royal Airforce

Then again, the RAF* did target Germans.

*Rote Armee Fraktion, not Royal Airforce

both of them, actually targeted Germans:D

both of them, actually targeted Germans:DI'm not going to debate that though, because I have my reasons to believe that both campaigns were terrorist in nature, and I don't want to hijack this thread explaining it.

Funny how the new Spanish government's policies stop terrorism without shooting anybody. Unless you want to pull some bullshit argument that ETA isn't a terrorist group. But hey, if cowardice gets terrorists to give up violence without having to make any real sacrifices to them then bring it on.

If you wanna play that game, Bush has prevented attacks against the US since we went after Afghanistan and Iraq. *shrugs*

I'm not going to debate that though, because I have my reasons to believe that both campaigns were terrorist in nature, and I don't want to hijack this thread explaining it.

Yes, but only one of them was an example of asymetric warfare, which is really the issue at hand.

If you wanna play that game, Bush has prevented attacks against the US since we went after Afghanistan and Iraq. *shrugs*Yes and no.

Yes and no.

Could debate it but that would be thread jacking.