NationStates Jolt Archive

Interesting article here. My belief is that it is partially the result of genetics (note that all Ashkenazi Jews (minus the rare conversion) share a common ancestor in Jacob and his wives Leah and Rachel. The gene could come from there or from Levi, Judah, Benjamin, and their spouses.

I also believe that culture has played a huge role in this. Study is very important in most Jewish households. Any Jew like me can tell stories of a strict parent who required X number of hours spent studying a day.

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4032638

Natural genius?

Jun 2nd 2005
From The Economist print edition
The high intelligence of Ashkenazi Jews may be a result of their persecuted past


THE idea that some ethnic groups may, on average, be more intelligent than others is one of those hypotheses that dare not speak its name. But Gregory Cochran, a noted scientific iconoclast, is prepared to say it anyway. He is that rare bird, a scientist who works independently of any institution. He helped popularise the idea that some diseases not previously thought to have a bacterial cause were actually infections, which ruffled many scientific feathers when it was first suggested. And more controversially still, he has suggested that homosexuality is caused by an infection.

Even he, however, might tremble at the thought of what he is about to do. Together with Jason Hardy and Henry Harpending, of the University of Utah, he is publishing, in a forthcoming edition of the Journal of Biosocial Science, a paper which not only suggests that one group of humanity is more intelligent than the others, but explains the process that has brought this about. The group in question are Ashkenazi Jews. The process is natural selection.
History before science


Ashkenazim generally do well in IQ tests, scoring 12-15 points above the mean value of 100, and have contributed disproportionately to the intellectual and cultural life of the West, as the careers of Freud, Einstein and Mahler, pictured above, affirm. They also suffer more often than most people from a number of nasty genetic diseases, such as Tay-Sachs and breast cancer. These facts, however, have previously been thought unrelated. The former has been put down to social effects, such as a strong tradition of valuing education. The latter was seen as a consequence of genetic isolation. Even now, Ashkenazim tend to marry among themselves. In the past they did so almost exclusively.

Dr Cochran, however, suspects that the intelligence and the diseases are intimately linked. His argument is that the unusual history of the Ashkenazim has subjected them to unique evolutionary pressures that have resulted in this paradoxical state of affairs.

Ashkenazi history begins with the Jewish rebellion against Roman rule in the first century AD. When this was crushed, Jewish refugees fled in all directions. The descendants of those who fled to Europe became known as Ashkenazim.

In the Middle Ages, European Jews were subjected to legal discrimination, one effect of which was to drive them into money-related professions such as banking and tax farming which were often disdained by, or forbidden to, Christians. This, along with the low level of intermarriage with their gentile neighbours (which modern genetic analysis confirms was the case), is Dr Cochran's starting point.

He argues that the professions occupied by European Jews were all ones that put a premium on intelligence. Of course, it is hard to prove that this intelligence premium existed in the Middle Ages, but it is certainly true that it exists in the modern versions of those occupations. Several studies have shown that intelligence, as measured by IQ tests, is highly correlated with income in jobs such as banking.

What can, however, be shown from the historical records is that European Jews at the top of their professions in the Middle Ages raised more children to adulthood than those at the bottom. Of course, that was true of successful gentiles as well. But in the Middle Ages, success in Christian society tended to be violently aristocratic (warfare and land), rather than peacefully meritocratic (banking and trade).

Put these two things together—a correlation of intelligence and success, and a correlation of success and fecundity—and you have circumstances that favour the spread of genes that enhance intelligence. The questions are, do such genes exist, and what are they if they do? Dr Cochran thinks they do exist, and that they are exactly the genes that cause the inherited diseases which afflict Ashkenazi society.

That small, reproductively isolated groups of people are susceptible to genetic disease is well known. Constant mating with even distant relatives reduces genetic diversity, and some disease genes will thus, randomly, become more common. But the very randomness of this process means there should be no discernible pattern about which disease genes increase in frequency. In the case of Ashkenazim, Dr Cochran argues, this is not the case. Most of the dozen or so disease genes that are common in them belong to one of two types: they are involved either in the storage in nerve cells of special fats called sphingolipids, which form part of the insulating outer sheaths that allow nerve cells to transmit electrical signals, or in DNA repair. The former genes cause neurological diseases, such as Tay-Sachs, Gaucher's and Niemann-Pick. The latter cause cancer.

That does not look random. And what is even less random is that in several cases the genes for particular diseases come in different varieties, each the result of an independent original mutation. This really does suggest the mutated genes are being preserved by natural selection. But it does not answer the question of how evolution can favour genetic diseases. However, in certain circumstances, evolution can.

West Africans, and people of West African descent, are susceptible to a disease called sickle-cell anaemia that is virtually unknown elsewhere. The anaemia develops in those whose red blood cells contain a particular type of haemoglobin, the protein that carries oxygen. But the disease occurs only in those who have two copies of the gene for the disease-causing haemoglobin (one copy from each parent). Those who have only one copy have no symptoms. They are, however, protected against malaria, one of the biggest killers in that part of the world. Thus, the theory goes, the pressure to keep the sickle-cell gene in the population because of its malaria-protective effects balances the pressure to drive it out because of its anaemia-causing effects. It therefore persists without becoming ubiquitous.

Dr Cochran argues that something similar happened to the Ashkenazim. Genes that promote intelligence in an individual when present as a single copy create disease when present as a double copy. His thesis is not as strong as the sickle-cell/malaria theory, because he has not proved that any of his disease genes do actually affect intelligence. But the area of operation of some of them suggests that they might.

The sphingolipid-storage diseases, Tay-Sachs, Gaucher's and Niemann-Pick, all involve extra growth and branching of the protuberances that connect nerve cells together. Too much of this (as caused in those with double copies) is clearly pathological. But it may be that those with single copies experience a more limited, but still enhanced, protuberance growth. That would yield better linkage between brain cells, and might thus lead to increased intelligence. Indeed, in the case of Gaucher's disease, the only one of the three in which people routinely live to adulthood, there is evidence that those with full symptoms are more intelligent than the average. An Israeli clinic devoted to treating people with Gaucher's has vastly more engineers, scientists, accountants and lawyers on its books than would be expected by chance.

Why a failure of the DNA-repair system should boost intelligence is unclear—and is, perhaps, the weakest part of the thesis, although evidence is emerging that one of the genes in question is involved in regulating the early growth of the brain. But the thesis also has a strong point: it makes a clear and testable prediction. This is that people with a single copy of the gene for Tay-Sachs, or that for Gaucher's, or that for Niemann-Pick should be more intelligent than average. Dr Cochran and his colleagues predict they will be so by about five IQ points. If that turns out to be the case, it will strengthen the idea that, albeit unwillingly, Ashkenazi Jews have been part of an accidental experiment in eugenics. It has brought them some advantages. But, like the deliberate eugenics experiments of the 20th century, it has also exacted a terrible price.

"Jacob and his wives Leah and Rachel."

As in the Biblical characters? Right...

are you on crack?

"Jacob and his wives Leah and Rachel."

As in the Biblical characters? Right...
Now, I can see why people might not buy the supernatural, but the Old Testament is in large part a history book. DNA testing has pretty much proven that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews do come from a common ancestor.

Now the fact that Sephardic Jews aren't showing the same IQ results as Ashkenazi Jews probably could make many believe that the Ashkenazi culture is largely responsible for this IQ test.

are you on crack?
Good use of ad hominem. You have nothing worthwhile to say so you use logical fallacies.

Real mature.:rolleyes:

"Jacob and his wives Leah and Rachel."

As in the Biblical characters? Right...

Why is it not possible for Jacob and his wives to exist?

....They were just normal people.


Anyway, yes..it is true, generally European Jewry does among the top of the charts in IQ tests..the same can be said of East Asians. I think in both cases the answer is culture...although I had heard that European Jewry devolped differently because of the jobs they took, which required more thinking and logic....as opposed to agricultural/industrial jobs.

...I'm pretty sure in most of Europe Jews werent allowed to hold the agricultural/industrial jobs.

Now, I can see why people might not buy the supernatural, but the Old Testament is in large part a history book. DNA testing has pretty much proven that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews do come from a common ancestor.

Now the fact that Sephardic Jews aren't showing the same IQ results as Ashkenazi Jews probably could make many believe that the Ashkenazi culture is largely responsible for this IQ test.

Right, Ashkenazi Jews come from better countries (culturally) than Sephardic Jews. So that may prove the "culture" arguement.

Why is it not possible for Jacob and his wives to exist?

....They were just normal people.


Anyway, yes..it is true, generally European Jewry does among the top of the charts in IQ tests..the same can be said of East Asians. I think in both cases the answer is culture...although I had heard that European Jewry devolped differently because of the jobs they took, which required more thinking and logic....as opposed to agricultural/industrial jobs.

...I'm pretty sure in most of Europe Jews werent allowed to hold the agricultural/industrial jobs.
That is quite true. I would say it is a mix of culture and genetics in the case of the Ashkenazis. The Jews were often the only literate group in Russia outside of the Nobility. During the Czar's time, none of the peasants in Russia outside of the Jews in the Pale were literate. Although, none of those Jews spoke Russian. They all spoke Yiddush in their daily lives and ancient Hebrew at prayer.

Now, I can see why people might not buy the supernatural, but the Old Testament is in large part a history book. DNA testing has pretty much proven that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews do come from a common ancestor.

It has done so for most people. Some have claimed that everyone in Europe is descended from just seven women. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/719376.stm) Now, what chances are there that those seven women are some seven women any mythology mentions? One of them being the Norse/Asatro Embla, for instance?

Please. :rolleyes:

Right, Ashkenazi Jews come from better countries (culturally) than Sephardic Jews. So that may prove the "culture" arguement.
It isn't just the countries. I'd say it was more the position they were in that influenced their development. The Sephardic Jews tended to be seperated in the Diaspora. The Ashkenazi Jews were forced to live in ghettos like the Pale of Settlement. This segregation not only had the effect of keeping the Jews Jewish, but it also led to them basically setting up their own communities where people were required to go study (something unheard of elsewhere in the world at the time.)

That is quite true. I would say it is a mix of culture and genetics in the case of the Ashkenazis. The Jews were often the only literate group in Russia outside of the Nobility. During the Czar's time, none of the peasants in Russia outside of the Jews in the Pale were literate. Although, none of those Jews spoke Russian. They all spoke Yiddush in their daily lives and ancient Hebrew at prayer.

Maybe not in Russia...but I know in countres in Central/Western Europe where Jews were way more integrated (Germany is the best example) Jews spoke German (or whatever thier countries language was), Yiddish, and sometimes even hebrew.

I know this was the case for my German/Austrian [Jewish] family..who came from Berlin and Vienna, very tolerant cities with integrated Jews.

So, could there be genetics involved, maybe...is it mostly culture...I think so.

It has done so for most people. Some have claimed that everyone in Europe is descended from just seven women. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/719376.stm) Now, what chances are there that those seven women are some seven women any mythology mentions? One of them being the Norse/Asatro Embla, for instance?

Please. :rolleyes:
Those 7 women have nothing to do with anything I'm saying. Please go back and read the freaking article.

The modern Jews have descended from 3 of Jacob's sons. DNA testing has shown that the Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities still hold this common link after millenia of being in seperate continents.

Good use of ad hominem. You have nothing worthwhile to say so you use logical fallacies.

no seriously?

are you saying the Jews are in fact some sort of money obsessed race as the article seems to indicate?

May I also remind you who conquered a quarter of the globe well if this little racial theory is correct we can completely ignore all the geographical advantages and random chance which leads to show how Brits are the master race.

Lets not also forget that some tribes people have bigger brains and are sometimes smarter than us (especially in nomads were big brains are under more pressure to exist) does that mean that they are racially superior? Of course not but the evidence from the article seems to point to it

So you got two options either nomads are superhuman with British coming close and Jews being somewhere below or that humans haven’t been around long enough to have these problems (especially since the mixing of distant races is more common through history in our ever shrinking world)

no seriously?

are you saying the Jews are in fact some sort of money obsessed race as the article seems to indicate?

May I also remind you who conquered a quarter of the globe well if this little racial theory is correct we can completely ignore all the geographical advantages and random chance which leads to show how Brits are the master race.

Lets not also forget that some tribes people have bigger brains and are sometimes smarter than us (especially in nomads were big brains are under more pressure to exist) does that mean that they are racially superior? Of course not but the evidence from the article seems to point to it

So you got two options either nomads are superhuman with British coming close and Jews being somewhere below or that humans haven’t been around long enough to have these problems (especially since the mixing of distant races is more common through history in our ever shrinking world)

You're right and you're wrong.

Jews arnt a race, but Jews ARE money-obsessed. :p

It isn't just the countries. I'd say it was more the position they were in that influenced their development. The Sephardic Jews tended to be seperated in the Diaspora. The Ashkenazi Jews were forced to live in ghettos like the Pale of Settlement. This segregation not only had the effect of keeping the Jews Jewish, but it also led to them basically setting up their own communities where people were required to go study (something unheard of elsewhere in the world at the time.)
But I think it also has to do with the countrys those communities were in.

Compare Jews in Germany (or the German-States..pre-Germany)...to Jews in shitholes in North-Africa....the Middle-East or Spain.

I never said it was just the countries...but I think the countries the Ashkenazi were located in gave us a huge advantage over the "pieces" the sephardics were located in.

Now, I can see why people might not buy the supernatural, but the Old Testament is in large part a history book.
A history of the supernatural, maybe.

Those 7 women have nothing to do with anything I'm saying.Please go back and read the freaking article.

It has everything to do with what you're saying. You're claiming that the genetic evidence supports some mythology. It doesn't, just like in Europe's case it doesn't support any of the mythologies indigenous to it.

The modern Jews have descended from 3 of Jacob's sons. DNA testing has shown that the Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities still hold this common link after millenia of being in seperate continents.

And as I said, DNA testing has shown most people have a common ancestor if you go back far enough - not just Jews. That Jews happen to have a mythology of common ancestry - like most mythologies, you know, seeing as people were able to think along the lines of "from few, many" they saw in the practice of breeding their livestock and applied a similar concept on themselves, thinking they must have had some "few" people far, far back that they became "many" from just like the herd of, say, cows they got from a few individuals - doesn't make their mythology any more probable, just like it doesn't make Embla and Ask more probable, or any other of the common ancestors people's mythologies created and gave names to.

Let's all pat IDF on the back. He's a member of the true master race.

Then we laugh at him behind his back.

Let's all pat IDF on the back. He's a member of the true master race.

Then we laugh at him behind his back.

Hey...what about me...I'm Germanic and Jewish! Can I hold double membership.:p :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I doubt hes calling Jews a "master race"...unless stating facts of IQ results is synonimous with calling a group "master race".

By that concept I guess I am calling the East Asians a "master race" because they score higher than most of us dumbshit Americans...eh?

And more controversially still, he has suggested that homosexuality is caused by an infection.


...which pretty much proves that anything that comes out of this guy's mouth is utter tosh, and is founded on idle speculation rather than rigorous analysis. I didn't bother reading further because I felt that my IQ would decrease.

...which pretty much proves that anything that comes out of this guy's mouth is utter tosh

It took me quite a bit of restraint not to say that. Thank you, though, for saying it. Homosexuality an infection... :rolleyes:

(note that all Ashkenazi Jews (minus the rare conversion) share a common ancestor in Jacob and his wives Leah and Rachel. The gene could come from there or from Levi, Judah, Benjamin, and their spouses.


The cultural argument seems pretty reasonable. But this?

Actually, if IDF is right we can draw an interesting conclusion. Under his beliefs, all Arabs, I guess, would have to be direct descendents of Ishmael, Isaac's brother and therefore Jacob's uncle. So Jews and Arabs are cousins. The Arab-Israeli conflict is an in-family fight!

It took me quite a bit of restraint not to say that. Thank you, though, for saying it. Homosexuality an infection... :rolleyes:
Clearly, he was afraid of catching gaybies.

Clearly, he was afraid of catching gaybies.

Silly git. Everyone knows it's the gaydiation that gets you.

The cultural argument seems pretty reasonable. But this?

Actually, if IDF is right we can draw an interesting conclusion. Under his beliefs, all Arabs, I guess, would have to be direct descendents of Ishmael, Isaac's brother and therefore Jacob's uncle. So Jews and Arabs are cousins. The Arab-Israeli conflict is an in-family fight!

IDF fails to take into account Jews mixing with non-Jews in Europe. And while its true that it didnt happen on a large scale...there are only a tiny ammount of Jews so it wouldnt take that many mixes to make a difference.

In my opinion, its like 80% cultural, 20% genetic.

Let's all pat IDF on the back. He's a member of the true master race.

Then we laugh at him behind his back.
Way to be a moron once again.

I never claimed Jews are a master race. I am merely saying that a culture that has long valued education and similar genes is going to suceed. This IQ study and others like it have proven this fact.

IDF fails to take into account Jews mixing with non-Jews in Europe. And while its true that it didnt happen on a large scale...there are only a tiny ammount of Jews so it wouldnt take that many mixes to make a difference.

In my opinion, its like 80% cultural, 20% genetic.
Mixing was more common in places like France or Germany. In Russia, it would be nearly impossible due to the segregated status of Jews in the Pale.

The cultural argument seems pretty reasonable. But this?

Actually, if IDF is right we can draw an interesting conclusion. Under his beliefs, all Arabs, I guess, would have to be direct descendents of Ishmael, Isaac's brother and therefore Jacob's uncle. So Jews and Arabs are cousins. The Arab-Israeli conflict is an in-family fight!
Mohammed may have decended from Ishmael, but I doubt most Arabs have. Mohamed forcefully converted many different groups of Arabs.

Way to be a moron once again.

I never claimed Jews are a master race. I am merely saying that a culture that has long valued education and similar genes is going to suceed. This IQ study and others like it have proven this fact.

When IDF sez he ain't the Master Race
Then we smile! Smile!
Into IDFs' face...

Mixing was more common in places like France or Germany. In Russia, it would be nearly impossible due to the segregated status of Jews in the Pale.

Thats fine....but there are millions are Jews whos background comes from Western/Central Europe....and when your speaking millions in regard to the Jewish population, thats not a small amount.

And as I said, DNA testing has shown most people have a common ancestor if you go back far enough - not just Jews. That Jews happen to have a mythology of common ancestry - like most mythologies, you know, seeing as people were able to think along the lines of "from few, many" they saw in the practice of breeding their livestock and applied a similar concept on themselves, thinking they must have had some "few" people far, far back that they became "many" from just like the herd of, say, cows they got from a few individuals...

It isn't necessarily "from few, many" at all. It's just who gets lucky enough to have their mitochondrial DNA passed down long enough.

When IDF sez he ain't the Master Race
Then we smile! Smile!
Into IDFs' face...
:D

Wasnt that a Donald Duck, Disney thing.

When the Fuhrer says, We ist Der Master Race..

Then we Heil! Heil!

Right in the Fuhrer's face.

When IDF sez he ain't the Master Race
Then we smile! Smile!
Into IDFs' face...

Oooh, 4/6. Would have been more, had it been just a tad more iambic.

Mohammed may have decended from Ishmael, but I doubt most Arabs have. Mohamed forcefully converted many different groups of Arabs.

Well...technically, so did the Jews before the reformation when the 2nd temple was burnt down.

the Jews were raging warriors who conquered and converted many middle-eastern peoples...also, there is the mass conversion of the Khazars...a caucasion people, to Judaism.

It isn't necessarily "from few, many" at all. It's just who gets lucky enough to have their mitochondrial DNA passed down long enough.

And since mitochondrial DNA is only passed down on the mother's side you can see how many "original" mothers ended up having the offspring that ended up being all of us. Nevertheless, that was more an allusion to people way back way being able to think and reason about population growth, even if simplistically, because, hey, they were simple, and not about the actual verisimilitude of the numerical relationship.

Good article, horrible commentary in the OP.

Ruined what could have been an interesting discussion.

And since mitochondrial DNA is only passed down on the mother's side you can see how many "original" mothers ended up having the offspring that ended up being all of us.

No, you can't. You can only see the original mothers that can be traced through mitochondrial DNA.

There were never seven mothers somewhere who gave birth to Europe. There were probably thousands - and the female descendants of those seven mothers intermarried enough with the other mitochondrial lines that the other ones became completely or virtually nonexistant.

For an extremely simplified example of how this can work, take two couples that immigrate to Mars. One couple has two girls, the other two boys. Because of the lack of other mating partners, the children marry each other, and have their own children. Every child of the third generation will have mitochondrial DNA traceable to the mother of the two girls, because that mother would have passed hers onto her daughters, and her daughters would have passed them on to their children.

But there are two common female ancestors, not one. It is pure coincidence that one mother contributed the mitochondrial DNA and the other didn't. Not exactly the stuff of legend.

Nevertheless, that was more an allusion to people way back way being able to think and reason about population growth, even if simplistically, because, hey, they were simple, and not about the actual verisimilitude of the numerical relationship.

I know, but I was just trying to add to your point about the worthlessness of such things for validating legends.

I want to see Dobbs explain this fact:

Ashkenazi Jews have a noted history of achievement. Though only 0.25% of the world population, Jewish scientists make up 28% of Nobel prize winners in physics, chemistry, medicine, and economics, and have accounted for more than half of world chess champions.[20] In the United States, Ashkenazi Jews represent 2% of the population, but have won 40% of the US Nobel Prizes in science, and 25% of the ACM Turing Awards (the Nobel-equivalent in computer science). A significant decline in the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Europeans and a corresponding increase in the number of prizes awarded to US citizens occurred at the same time as Nazi persecutions of Jews during the 1930s and the Holocaust during the 1940s.[21]

Many studies show Ashkenazi Jews as having the highest average IQ of any tested ethnic group, as much as a standard deviation higher than the general mean for Western populations.[22] These studies also indicate that this advantage is primarily in verbal and mathematical, but not spatial, areas. This difference in IQ correlates well with, and helps to explain, the disproportionate achievements of Ashkenazi Jews as a group.

No, you can't. You can only see the original mothers that can be traced through mitochondrial DNA.

There were never seven mothers somewhere who gave birth to Europe. There were probably thousands - and the female descendants of those seven mothers intermarried enough with the other mitochondrial lines that the other ones became completely or virtually nonexistant.

For an extremely simplified example of how this can work, take two couples that immigrate to Mars. One couple has two girls, the other two boys. Because of the lack of other mating partners, the children marry each other, and have their own children. Every child of the third generation will have mitochondrial DNA traceable to the mother of the two girls, because that mother would have passed hers onto her daughters, and her daughters would have passed them on to their children.

But there are two common female ancestors, not one. It is pure coincidence that one mother contributed the mitochondrial DNA and the other didn't. Not exactly the stuff of legend.

But, in the end, most people aren't going to have just sons or just daughters - especially not back then as they were popping out children like crazy (many died, blah blah, but still). As those children breed, the mitochondrial DNA of the ancestors who are successful in having successful offspring will end up being present in the population - not of those who were not. Meaning, there will indeed be some "common ancestor" - emphasis on common - that they will all be "related" to. Hence the "mother" - if her mitochondrial DNA is present down the line, she is the common one.

I know, but I was just trying to add to your point about the worthlessness of such things for validating legends.

Everything is random within the constraints of natural selection (which is not so random at all, of course).

But, in the end, most people aren't going to have just sons or just daughters - especially not back then as they were popping out children like crazy (many died, blah blah, but still).

But it doesn't take place over a few generations, as in the example - it takes place over a long series of generations. Eventually, most lines die out. That's why you can get numbers as low as seven - not because you had seven Hero Women who braved the epic journey to Europe and churned out enough children to lay the foundations for modern Europeans.

As those children breed, the mitochondrial DNA of the ancestors who are successful in having successful offspring will end up being present in the population - not of those who were not. Meaning, there will indeed be some "common ancestor" - emphasis on common - that they will all be "related" to. Hence the "mother" - if her mitochondrial DNA is present down the line, she is the common one.

She is a common one if her mitochondrial DNA is present down the line, but she is not the common one. There are others who are not noticed in analyses of mitochondrial DNA, because their descendants were too male.

It took me quite a bit of restraint not to say that. Thank you, though, for saying it. Homosexuality an infection... :rolleyes:
How many have you infected thus far, Fass?

I'm betting it's well into the double figures now, possibly triple.

But it doesn't take place over a few generations, as in the example - it takes place over a long series of generations. Eventually, most lines die out. That's why you can get numbers as low as seven - not because you had seven Hero Women who braved the epic journey to Europe and churned out enough children to lay the foundations for modern Europeans.

Of course there weren't. It's as you said - those who survived, meaning us, are the only things that bear testament to their genetic legacy. If some line died out, well they would of course not be visible today.

She is a common one if her mitochondrial DNA is present down the line, but she is not the common one. There are others who are not noticed in analyses of mitochondrial DNA, because their descendants were too male.

But those will not be as common as the ones whose mitochondrial DNA prevails. These seven are the ones that most people have in common. That, according to whoever thought this up, if you're of European descent in Europe you are to belong to the lines that are traceable these seven. Call them "mothers" or not - it'll just devolve into semantics.

I never claimed Jews are a master race. I am merely saying that a culture that has long valued education and similar genes is going to suceed. This IQ study and others like it have proven this fact.
The point being?

Try and think long and hard about your answer.

How many have you infected thus far, Fass?

I'm betting it's well into the double figures now, possibly triple.

I have had difficulties perpetuating the infection in those not already infected, I have to say. My vectors seem broken, as their effect seems to take hold only for a brief period of time on those who have not been infected by some more potent strain and rendered permanently altered.

Of course there weren't. It's as you said - those who survived, meaning us, are the only things that bear testament to their genetic legacy. If some line died out, well they would of course not be visible today.

The matrilineal line - that is, the line of females with the mitochondrial DNA of the female ancestor - died out, but not necessarily all the descendants of the line. I, for instance, have recent ancestors of a wide variety of ethnic groups, but my mitochondrial DNA is far less diverse; it comes from whatever matrilineal line I am a part of. I am probably a descendant of one of those seven women (and of countless others), but I almost certainly do not have mitochondrial DNA traceable to any of them.

But those will not be as common as the ones whose mitochondrial DNA prevails.

They will be more common. Eventually, coincidence will have it that there will be too few females having children for the line to maintain itself, and there will be no more individuals with that mitochondrial DNA. All the descendants of the mother will not disappear; merely the ones with mitochondrial DNA descended from that of the mother. Some lines will be luckier than others, and will dominate, but these will be a very few, and will eventually become one.

From Wikipedia, describing this point in a similar context:

Wilson's naming Mitochondrial Eve after Eve of the Genesis creation story has led to some misunderstandings among the general public. A common misconception is that Mitochondrial Eve was the only living female of her time — she was not (indeed, had she been, humanity would have probably become extinct). Many women alive at the same time as Mitochondrial Eve have descendants alive today. However, only Mitochondrial Eve produced an unbroken line of female descendents carrying her mitochondrial DNA that persists today.

Imagine a family tree of all humans living today. Now imagine a line from each individual to their mother, and continue those lines from each of those mothers to their mothers, and so on. Going back through time their mitochondrial lineages will converge. The further back in time one goes, the fewer mitochondrial ancestors of living humans there will be until only one is left — this is the latest common matrilineal ancestor of all humans alive today, i.e. Mitochondrial Eve.

Now, going in the opposite direction of the family tree (from ancient times to today), imagine the same line, which now connects mothers to their daughters. Starting with the entire human population alive at some time in the past, lineages will become extinct as women die childless or only have male children. Eventually, only a single lineage remains, which is the same as before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

These seven are the ones that most people have in common.

No. That is not the claim of the research at all. The claim is that 99% of Europeans have mitochondrial DNA that is traceable to one of the seven females. Someone else who belongs to the same matrilineal line will share a female ancestor with you, but there is no way to know through analysis of mitochondrial DNA whether or not other Europeans whose mitochondrial DNA is traceable to a different one of the seven share a female ancestor with you. Most Europeans are probably descended from more than one (the seven "clans" undoubtedly intermarried), but there is no way to demonstrate that with mitochondrial DNA.

That, according to whoever thought this up, if you're of European descent in Europe you are to belong to the lines that are traceable these seven. Call them "mothers" or not - it'll just devolve into semantics.

You belong to a line of mitochondrial DNA traceable to one of those women, yes. But that doesn't tell us all that much in terms of how many women that migrated to Europe have surviving descendants. It's just a cool fact.

Mohammed may have decended from Ishmael, but I doubt most Arabs have. Mohamed forcefully converted many different groups of Arabs.

Oh please, you don't want your thread to turn into a heated theological debate. Plus, I don't understand why you would want to change the topic in your own thread.

On the other hand, you fail (by a quite large number) to consider the parts where the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) [[for respect]] didn't do such.


---

Anywho, I am unbias saying this, but I don't buy this either. Considering homosexuality an infection, and creating really far-fetched claims on controversal topics can't be a good source to follow.

I'm assuming that since you are Jewish, IDF, you would believe this. But you need to look at the reverse side and then think, "Hmm. . .is thiis believable or not?"

Really, I've looked at both sides, and like many others, I've come to the same conclusion -- Not true.

Interesting article here. My belief is that it is partially the result of genetics (note that all Ashkenazi Jews (minus the rare conversion) share a common ancestor in Jacob and his wives Leah and Rachel. The gene could come from there or from Levi, Judah, Benjamin, and their spouses.

I also believe that culture has played a huge role in this. Study is very important in most Jewish households. Any Jew like me can tell stories of a strict parent who required X number of hours spent studying a day.

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4032638I'm not aware of any evidence that links intelligence to genetics, (aside from the rare occurrence, such as Down Syndrome) however there is ample evidence linking it to upbringing.
Or, it could be that the cultural bias that exists in IQ tests heavily benefits Ashkenazi Jews.

Oh good, someone on NSG posting about how one 'race' is more intelligent than other 'races.' With NN, it was the "white race" against "non whites," now its the "descendents of Jacob." Blah.

Do we really need this kind of racist tripe, or is it okay because maintaining the idea that one race has higher IQ is NOT maintaining higher intelligence and is NOT therefore implying racial superiority? (The old, "I'm just pointing out facts, la la la" excuse?)

Oh good, someone on NSG posting about how one 'race' is more intelligent than other 'races.' With NN, it was the "white race" against "non whites," now its the "descendents of Jacob." Blah.

Do we really need this kind of racist tripe, or is it okay because maintaining the idea that one race has higher IQ is NOT maintaining higher intelligence and is NOT therefore implying racial superiority? (The old, "I'm just pointing out facts, la la la" excuse?)
I dont understand why people react like this.

If studies have shown that Jews and East Asians score the highest on IQ tests, generally....and someone repeats the statistics of IQ results...are they automatically a racist a proponent of some Ashkenazi Master Race?

Ashkenazi Jews have a noted history of achievement. Though only 0.25% of the world population, Jewish scientists make up 28% of Nobel prize winners in physics, chemistry, medicine, and economics, and have accounted for more than half of world chess champions.[20] In the United States, Ashkenazi Jews represent 2% of the population, but have won 40% of the US Nobel Prizes in science, and 25% of the ACM Turing Awards (the Nobel-equivalent in computer science). A significant decline in the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Europeans and a corresponding increase in the number of prizes awarded to US citizens occurred at the same time as Nazi persecutions of Jews during the 1930s and the Holocaust during the 1940s.[21]

I guess this means that unless we have an affirmative action program for Nobel Prizes and Turing Prizes, to allow more Arabs to win, we'll be accused of racism and bigotry.

Like I'm going to believe some crap from a 'scientist' who thinks Homosexuality is caused by a disease...

I guess this means that unless we have an affirmative action program for Nobel Prizes and Turing Prizes, to allow more Arabs to win, we'll be accused of racism and bigotry.
LOL...I had to laugh, sorry.:D

Like I'm going to believe some crap from a 'scientist' who thinks Homosexuality is caused by a disease...
This much is true, whether you believe his hypothesis on why.

Ashkenazi Jews have a noted history of achievement. Though only 0.25% of the world population, Jewish scientists make up 28% of Nobel prize winners in physics, chemistry, medicine, and economics, and have accounted for more than half of world chess champions.[20] In the United States, Ashkenazi Jews represent 2% of the population, but have won 40% of the US Nobel Prizes in science, and 25% of the ACM Turing Awards (the Nobel-equivalent in computer science). A significant decline in the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Europeans and a corresponding increase in the number of prizes awarded to US citizens occurred at the same time as Nazi persecutions of Jews during the 1930s and the Holocaust during the 1940s.[21]

Like I'm going to believe some crap from a 'scientist' who thinks Homosexuality is caused by a disease...
The gay thing is one thing...but there isnt opinion for the IQ results.....it is a fact that Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians score the highest, its not really a matter of opinion, so I dont think it really matters what his views on gays are...as this isnt really a view..but more citing the statistic results of IQ testing.

The modern Jews have descended from 3 of Jacob's sons. DNA testing has shown that the Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities still hold this common link after millenia of being in seperate continents.
Aren't Sephardic Jews, those who live in Spain and Portugal? Those countries are in the same continent as Germany.

I guess this means that unless we have an affirmative action program for Nobel Prizes and Turing Prizes, to allow more Arabs to win, we'll be accused of racism and bigotry.
You live to bait ppl on NS, don't you? ;)

Aren't Sephardic Jews, those who live in Spain and Portugal? Those countries are in the same continent as Germany.
To an extent...but it usually means Middle-Eastern Jewry. That is, Jews in North Africa and the Middle East. Jews there are racially, lingusticly and culturally different than European Jewry...or Ashkenazi Jews.

To an extent...but it usually means Middle-Eastern Jewry. That is, Jews in North Africa and the Middle East. Jews there are racially, lingusticly and culturally different than European Jewry...or Ashkenazi Jews.
Sounds like you're describing a race.....

Sounds like you're describing a race.....
Or, I'm saying that Jews arnt a race. Since Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews differ racially, culturally and linguisticly?;)

The smart ones all got out of europe in time :D :D :D

To an extent...but it usually means Middle-Eastern Jewry. That is, Jews in North Africa and the Middle East. Jews there are racially, lingusticly and culturally different than European Jewry...or Ashkenazi Jews.

Those are a sub-category, and it is disputable whether at least some of the Jews in that category should actually be classified as Sephardic.

Those are a sub-category, and it is disputable whether at least some of the Jews in that category should actually be classified as Sephardic.
I would disagree.

When comparing Sephardic Jews to Ashkenazi Jews you come up with this:

Ash: Speak the language of their home country plus Yiddish

Seph: Speak the language of their home country plus (forgot the name of their sephardic language)

Ash: Look more like the population in their host country

Seph: Look more like the population in THEIR host country

Ash: Have a European-Style culture

Seph: Have a North Africa- Middle Eastern style culture

I would disagree.

"Sephardic" refers to Jews ultimately from the Iberian Peninsula, many of whom ended up in North Africa and the Middle East (though others ended up elsewhere.)

There are other Jews in that region, however, who did not come from the Iberian Peninsula - Arabic Jews, Persian Jews, etc. If you want a binary classification, they go in the Sephardic category as opposed to the Ashkenazic one, but they do not fall into that category with perfect neatness.

And the Sephardic language is Ladino.

"Sephardic" refers to Jews ultimately from the Iberian Peninsula, many of whom ended up in North Africa and the Middle East (though others ended up elsewhere.)

There are other Jews in that region, however, who did not come from the Iberian Peninsula - Arabic Jews, Persian Jews, etc. If you want a binary classification, they go in the Sephardic category as opposed to the Ashkenazic one, but they do not fall into that category with perfect neatness.

And the Sephardic language is Ladino.

Well, perhaps they dont fall into categories "with perfect neatness"...but most people I know (Juden included) consider Iberian, North Africa, and Middle Eastern (from Persia to Lebanon) Sephardic...I'm going on that.

Edit: Ah, yes..Ladino..does anyone still speak it, I've never heard it...

Well, perhaps they dont fall into categories "with perfect neatness"...but most people I know (Juden included) consider Iberian, North Africa, and Middle Eastern (from Persia to Lebanon) Sephardic...I'm going on that.

Yes, most people do, and with some justice.

Edit: Ah, yes..Ladino..does anyone still speak it, I've never heard it...

Wiki states the following:

In the twentieth century, the number of speakers declined sharply: entire communities were eradicated in the Holocaust, while the remaining speakers, many of whom migrated to Israel, adopted Hebrew. The governments of the new nation-states encouraged instruction in the official languages. At the same time, it aroused the interest of philologists since it conserved language and literature which existed prior to the standardisation of Spanish.

Ladino is in serious danger of extinction because many native speakers today are elderly olim, who have not transmitted the language to their children or grandchildren, however it is experiencing a minor revival among Sephardic communities, especially in music. In addition, Sephardic communities in several Latin American countries still use Ladino. The danger of extinction is also due to the risk of assimilation by modern Castilian Spanish.

Qol Yerushalayim and Radio Nacional de España hold regular radio broadcasts in Ladino. Law & Order showed an episode with references to Ladino language. Films partially or totally in Ladino include Novia que te vea and Every Time We Say Goodbye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino_language

Seems to be in a state similar to Yiddish. In another century, there's a significant chance that both will be gone.

Seems to be in a state similar to Yiddish. In another century, there's a significant chance that both will be gone.
Ah, I see...as Yiddish is Germanic (German mixed with a bit of hebrew), this is Romance (Spanish with a bit of Hebrew).

As to them dying out, meh...theres really no need for them anymore. Better to learn German or Spanish.

Time to indulge the Jewish Media Conspiracy Conspiracy. Isn't this thread quite strongly related to Kimchi's one on Ashkenazi Jews and the Nobel Prize?

Time to indulge the Jewish Media Conspiracy Conspiracy. Isn't this thread quite strongly related to Kimchi's one on Ashkenazi Jews and the Nobel Prize?
Ja. Si, Ken, Da.

Ah, I see...as Yiddish is Germanic (German mixed with a bit of hebrew), this is Romance (Spanish with a bit of Hebrew).

Yes, but both are based off older versions of the languages than the ones currently spoken.

As to them dying out, meh...theres really no need for them anymore.

It further assimilates Jews into the mainstream culture, destroying a centuries-old cultural heritage and weakening religious cohesion. I'll confess to not being particularly concerned, though.

Better to learn German or Spanish.

More useful to, definitely.

Aren't Sephardic Jews, those who live in Spain and Portugal? Those countries are in the same continent as Germany.
Many Sephardics actually lived across North Africa and the Middle East too. They weren't as centralized as the European populations.

The populations in Brittain, France and Germany of Ashkenazi Jews kept their religion, but they had largely assimiliated into society. Most Ashkenazis lived in the Pale of Settlement (which included what is today Poland, Russia, and many other European States). They were in small segregated villages. (see places like the fictional Anatevke)

Yes, but both are based off older versions of the languages than the ones currently spoken.
My grandma is of Austrian-Jewish background...but was born in America. Knowing yiddish from her community, she could understand the Austrians, years later, speaking German, when she went to Austria.

It further assimilates Jews into the mainstream culture, destroying a centuries-old cultural heritage and weakening religious cohesion. I'll confess to not being particularly concerned, though.
Good.


More useful to, definitely.
I'm glad we agree.


OMG, we agree! Anyway, speaking of German..I'm off to my first German class, wish me luck!:)

---

Anywho, I am unbias saying this, but I don't buy this either. Considering homosexuality an infection, and creating really far-fetched claims on controversal topics can't be a good source to follow.

I'm assuming that since you are Jewish, IDF, you would believe this. But you need to look at the reverse side and then think, "Hmm. . .is thiis believable or not?"

Really, I've looked at both sides, and like many others, I've come to the same conclusion -- Not true.
I don't buy this scientist's views on homosexuality, but the fact remains that there is some very good research that he is basing this conclusion on. Besides, it has been found that 1 in 4 Americans with an IQ over 140 is Jewish. Combining this with IQ tests, Nobel Prizes, and the number of Jews in important places, I think a similar conclusion can be reached.

Time to indulge the Jewish Media Conspiracy Conspiracy. Isn't this thread quite strongly related to Kimchi's one on Ashkenazi Jews and the Nobel Prize?
Yes, but this thread was posted first IIRC.

My grandma is of Austrian-Jewish background...but was born in America. Knowing yiddish from her community, she could understand the Austrians, years later, speaking German, when she went to Austria.

Well, Yiddish is not monolithic, either; it's possible that the dialect that was spoken by Austrian Jews was closer to modern German than others. And I didn't mean to imply that they were so different from the modern languages that mutual comprehension is impossible.

Anyway, speaking of German..I'm off to my first German class, wish me luck!:)

Good luck. Foreign languages are both annoying and fun; I've never learned German, so I can't speak on its relative proportions with regard to those characteristics.

Have you learned any others?

britain hasnt been top dog for awhile. it is currently americas bitch. with happpends to be a jew controled country.

so the problem that arises is, how do we stop smart people from being evil?

Anyway, speaking of German..I'm off to my first German class, wish me luck!:)


Look out for the articles! Those are killers.

I don't buy this scientist's views on homosexuality, but the fact remains that there is some very good research that he is basing this conclusion on. Besides, it has been found that 1 in 4 Americans with an IQ over 140 is Jewish. Combining this with IQ tests, Nobel Prizes, and the number of Jews in important places, I think a similar conclusion can be reached.
Oh noes it's Ashkenazi Jewpremacism!!!

Oh so when jews claim superiority, it's published in economist. What'd happen if it was claimed for whites? I guess everyone here can see the double standarts/hypocracy....

Well, Yiddish is not monolithic, either; it's possible that the dialect that was spoken by Austrian Jews was closer to modern German than others. And I didn't mean to imply that they were so different from the modern languages that mutual comprehension is impossible.
Thats true, you may be right. And I know you didnt mean to imply that...I didnt take it as such...sorry for that.


Good luck. Foreign languages are both annoying and fun; I've never learned German, so I can't speak on its relative proportions with regard to those characteristics.

Have you learned any others?
Thanks.
I just got back from German class and my teacher is amazing. She is American born, but grew up in Germany...then moved back to America, then back to Germany...and all that a few more times. She is really nice, pretty for her age...and anti-immigrant and conservative!;) Wow, is she rare! Look at it this way, shes German, she lives in South Florida, and shes a teacher! All those dont comply with conservative.

Anyway, I've learned Spanish. When I lived in California I was totally fluent in spanish, having learned it by my housekeeper while learning english from my parents. Now, though...I am not fluent, but I can still get by with my spanish, in conversation.

Which have you learned?

I just got back from German class and my teacher is amazing.

Good. That helps.

She is American born, but grew up in Germany...then moved back to America, then back to Germany...and all that a few more times. She is really nice, pretty for her age...and anti-immigrant and conservative!;)

Shame.

Wow, is she rare! Look at it this way, shes German, she lives in South Florida, and shes a teacher! All those dont comply with conservative.

There are undoubtedly plenty of right-wing Germans. The right-wing party did, after all, win in the last election, even if the left-wing parties hold a majority of the parliament.

Anyway, I've learned Spanish. When I lived in California I was totally fluent in spanish, having learned it by my housekeeper while learning english from my parents. Now, though...I am not fluent, but I can still get by with my spanish, in conversation.

Which have you learned?

Spanish and Hebrew. My Hebrew is decent, my Spanish... less so.

britain hasnt been top dog for awhile. it is currently americas bitch. with happpends to be a jew controled country.

so the problem that arises is, how do we stop smart people from being evil?
It wont be easy....we control the world form the shadows...

I.

Am.

The.

Elder.

Of.

Zion!

Oh so when jews claim superiority, it's published in economist. What'd happen if it was claimed for whites? I guess everyone here can see the double standarts/hypocracy....
Don't be stupid, if there were truly any scientific basis for white "superiority", it'd be published in many, many scientific journals. It just so happens that there isn't a superior race; Jews included.

I'm dumbfounded as to why you lot (as in, the thread at large) are giving any credit to the OP writer's ideas. He thinks that homosexuality is a virus! I mean, seriously! Anyone who can make a claim that ridiculous with a straight face only speaks in bullshit.

Oh noes it's Ashkenazi Jewpremacism!!!
Watch out for that Jew, Aaron.

Aaron...Aryan....

*shifts eyes*

Oh so when jews claim superiority, it's published in economist. What'd happen if it was claimed for whites? I guess everyone here can see the double standarts/hypocracy....
First of all....these Jews we are talking about, are not middle eastern/african Jews. They are the White Jews...hence, "Ashkenazi" (which actually means Germany in hebrew).

Second...It CANT be claimed for non-Jewish Whites...because they dont rank as high as Jews and East Asians...so it would be a false claim.

Shame.
Not at all. :)


There are undoubtedly plenty of right-wing Germans. The right-wing party did, after all, win in the last election, even if the left-wing parties hold a majority of the parliament.
Yes, I know..but it is so rare to actually meet them...even more so as teachers.

Spanish and Hebrew. My Hebrew is decent, my Spanish... less so.
Ah, I forgot about Hebrew. I learned it for my bar mitzah and such....and I can still read it, but I never got good enough to translate what I was reading, or speak or understand it.....All I can do is read it.

What do your parents speak?

So in other words the Germans are indeed the master race. But only the Aryan jews? The Aryan non-jews and Shephardic jews (middle eastern) are the subhumans, along with the rest of humanity.


*Bows to the allmighty Aryan Jews, the ashkenazis*

Disclaimer: I just find all the coincidential wordplays funny no insult meant or my true beliefs the above.

No one seemed to like my "ashkenazis score well on IQ tests because all the smart ones got out of Europe in time" joke, so we'll try again...

Coincidency or PROPHESY? "ash-can-nazi" !!!!

So in other words the Germans are indeed the master race. But only the Aryan jews? The Aryan non-jews and Shephardic jews (middle eastern) are the subhumans, along with the rest of humanity.


*Bows to the allmighty Aryan Jews, the ashkenazis*

Disclaimer: I just find all the coincidential wordplays funny no insult meant or my true beliefs the above.
************

'The' Elder of Ziom: "Elders, hes figured us out!"

No one seemed to like my "ashkenazis score well on IQ tests because all the smart ones got out of Europe in time" joke, so we'll try again...

Coincidency or PROPHESY? "ash-can-nazi" !!!!

*Mandark laugh*

Ah-haha...ah-haha-haha.

the "nazi" isnt pronounced like the German "nazis"....but rather....Na-zee

Hard to explain.

Yes, I know..but it is so rare to actually meet them...even more so as teachers.
That's bullshit! If you had gone to German schools like I did, you'd have met and been taught by German conservative teachers for years and years.

You are assuming way too much - one teacher who's left Germany on and off ain't really representative, now is it?

That's bullshit! If you had gone to German schools like I did, you'd have met and been taught by German conservative teachers for years and years.

You are assuming way too much - one teacher who's left Germany on and off ain't really representative, now is it?
I think your jumping on me a little too much.

South Florida (where I live) is a very liberal area. The teachers..even more so the teachers of South Florida, are very liberal.

now...put the fact that shes German, in which germans are generally more left than Americans, even if conservative by euro standars...SHE IS rare.

*Mandark laugh*

Ah-haha...ah-haha-haha.

the "nazi" isnt pronounced like the German "nazis"....but rather....Na-zee

Hard to explain.


Questio, if the ashcannazis are so smart, why can't they write in IPA?

Questio, if the ashcannazis are so smart, why can't they write in IPA?
...Its all to fake you guys out...so you let your guard down...

I think your jumping on me a little too much.

South Florida (where I live) is a very liberal area. The teachers..even more so the teachers of South Florida, are very liberal.

now...put the fact that shes German, in which germans are generally more left than Americans, even if conservative by euro standars...SHE IS rare.
Hmrpf. If I really did that you would notice 160 pounds pounding on you -

Other than that, you are the one making the assumptions on German society, not me. I just live in it. That is all for now.

Hmrpf. If I really did that you would notice 160 pounds pounding on you -

Other than that, you are the one making the assumptions on German society, not me. I just live in it. That is all for now.
I know you said that is all...but you are wrong.

I was mainly talking about South Florida's soceity.;)

I hope it isn't so, but if it is, it really isn't that bad. At least then my failure and low intelligence aren't my fault, just the result of being from an inferior race.

I hope it isn't so, but if it is, it really isn't that bad. At least then my failure and low intelligence aren't my fault, just the result of being from an inferior race.
Thats the spirit!

Yeah, why bother trying if I don't have the brains and why bother whining if it saves me a lot of trouble anyway. That is, after all, a significant advantage of inferiority. No chance of success means no need to strive. Why worry about what could have been instead of making the most of what is?