NationStates Jolt Archive

In your country, how many nuclear sites or labs do you know of that are completely underground?

Even in the US, places like Rocky Flats are aboveground.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20060821/D8JKU28G0.html

Can you think of a reason for Iran to put an entire nuclear research site "underground"?

I mean a reason that would apply to a country honestly pursuing peaceful uses of nuclear power.

VIENNA, Austria (AP) - Iran has turned away U.N. inspectors wanting to examine its underground nuclear site in an apparent violation of the Nonproliferation Treaty, diplomats and U.N. officials said Monday.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the confidentiality of the information, told The Associated Press that Iran's unprecedented refusal to allow access to the facility at Natanz could seriously hamper international efforts to ensure that Tehran is not trying to make nuclear weapons.

Why does it matter if it's peaceful or not? Iran's a soveriegn nation, with the right to pursue whatever weaponry it chooses, as long as it doesn't run afoul of whatever international agreements it's a part of.

And just so it's clear, no, I don't care if Iran has nukes or not.

Can you think of a reason for Iran to put an entire nuclear research site "underground"?

I mean a reason that would apply to a country honestly pursuing peaceful uses of nuclear power.
'Cause Israel will end up bombing it, whatever its purpose. (I'm under no delusion that it's peaceful, I'm just saying that even if it was peaceful it would still make sense to put it where the Israelis can't reach it.)

'Cause Israel will end up bombing it, whatever its purpose. (I'm under no delusion that it's peaceful, I'm just saying that even if it was peaceful it would still make sense to put it where the Israelis can't reach it.)

What he said. Of course Iran would build it underground, they know that shrub and the Israelis' all have itchy trigger finger and love bombing A-rabs.

Why does it matter if it's peaceful or not? Iran's a soveriegn nation, with the right to pursue whatever weaponry it chooses, as long as it doesn't run afoul of whatever international agreements it's a part of.

And just so it's clear, no, I don't care if Iran has nukes or not.

You mean the NPT that Iran is signatory to?

Because it's not peaceful. Let's face it, Iran is lying through their teeth with that whole "nuclear for peaceful purpose" crap.

Why does it matter if it's peaceful or not? Iran's a soveriegn nation, with the right to pursue whatever weaponry it chooses, as long as it doesn't run afoul of whatever international agreements it's a part of.

And just so it's clear, no, I don't care if Iran has nukes or not.

As long as they don't put one in a shipping container and send it to where you live, it's just fine...

Why does it matter if it's peaceful or not? Iran's a soveriegn nation, with the right to pursue whatever weaponry it chooses, as long as it doesn't run afoul of whatever international agreements it's a part of.

Under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, they are forbidden to go after Nuclear Weapons. If they are going after nuclear weapons then they are in violation of the NPT. Turning inspectors away is also a violation of the NPT.

"Can you think of a reason for Iran to put an entire nuclear research site "underground"?

I mean a reason that would apply to a country honestly pursuing peaceful uses of nuclear power."

To protect it from being bombed by a belligerent foreign power like the US or Israel.

Under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, they are forbidden to go after Nuclear Weapons. If they are going after nuclear weapons then they are in violation of the NPT. Turning inspectors away is also a violation of the NPT.

They can withdraw from the NPT at their leisure, just like North Korea did. Tada!

You mean the NPT that Iran is signatory to?
Yep--which they can pull out of anytime they want to.

To protect it from being bombed by a belligerent foreign power like the US or Israel.

Or hide it from prying eyes to make sure that they are not caught doing anything illegal?

I would build it underground if I was Iran out of a) spite and b) worry that the US or Israel would more or less covertly bomb it.

Yep--which they can pull out of anytime they want to.
As long as they don't mind sanctions.

They can withdraw from the NPT at their leisure, just like North Korea did. Tada!

But they haven't done so. Since they have not done so, it is illegal.

But they haven't done so. Since they have not done so, it is illegal.
Welcome to the world of "international law" where treaties have the value of wet toilet paper, and any semblance of morality and ethics goes right out the window.

Stop trying to hand out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

But they haven't done so. Since they have not done so, it is illegal.

So? Invading Iraq was illegal, and it happened. Iran should hurry up and get those nukes so that it too can enjoy the same privilege to disregard legality.

As long as they don't put one in a shipping container and send it to where you live, it's just fine...
I could get hit by a bus tomorrow--it's more likely that that will happen than that Iran will build a nuke and ship it to the US port nearest where I happen to live. I can't spend my time sweating stuff with a chance that small.

As long as they don't mind sanctions.
They've got oil. Nobody is really going to sanction them.

Or hide it from prying eyes to make sure that they are not caught doing anything illegal?

Yeah, and that's unheard of a practice in the West...

I could get hit by a bus tomorrow--it's more likely that that will happen than that Iran will build a nuke and ship it to the US port nearest where I happen to live. I can't spend my time sweating stuff with a chance that small.
Then call the Democratic Party and tell them to stop saying that we need to radically increase spending on making our ports and rails safer from terrorism.

They've got oil. Nobody is really going to sanction them.
You never know. Of course, the world has no balls today to do anything.

I bet Iran could nuke Israel, and get away with it. No sanctions, no invasion.

Then call the Democratic Party and tell them to stop saying that we need to radically increase spending on making our ports and rails safer from terrorism.
No. Just because I refuse to worry about it personally doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be worrying about it. God, you are such a child. The world really is black and white for you, isn't it? Have I been overestimating your intelligence all this time?

You never know. Of course, the world has no balls today to do anything.

I bet Iran could nuke Israel, and get away with it. No sanctions, no invasion.
They probably could. Iran is in the luxurious position of having the one thing that every nation wants and doesn't have enough of, and unless you're ready to take on the rest of the world over that thing, you don't fuck with the person sitting on top of it.

So? Invading Iraq was illegal, and it happened.

I will argue this at a different time.

Iran should hurry up and get those nukes so that it too can enjoy the same privilege to disregard legality.

And watch as the middle east destabilizes because they have nukes? No one in the middle east wants Iran to have nukes.

And watch as the middle east destabilizes because they have nukes? No one in the middle east wants Iran to have nukes.
The Iranians do.

No. Just because I refuse to worry about it personally doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be worrying about it. God, you are such a child. The world really is black and white for you, isn't it? Have I been overestimating your intelligence all this time?
If you refuse to worry about it, and if in truth the odds are so low as to be inconsequential (for the vast majority of Americans), then get up and say, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

Instead of this, "we can fight terrorists better than you" stuff I'm always hearing from Democrats.

..to peacefully make nukes?

They've got oil. Nobody is really going to sanction them.

I would not be to sure about that.

Theres 2 kinds of countries with nuclear arms or WMD's. There are civilized governments, and there are uncivilized governments. Take Iran's for example, they are uncivilized martyrs still living in 1200 A.D. and still want the destruction of Israel, Hezbollah too. Peaceful negotiations with civilizations like these is almost a failure since they also decept you. Take Adolf Hitler and the peace treaty he had with the U.K.. Still though, as civilized nations we must take diplomatic actions, and come up with the most reasonable agreement possible. If not then as civilized and peaceful nations we have a right to blow their nuclear ambitions right the fuck up, and take out all the rest of their means of producing anymore high powered bombs in the future. War is a natural part of life, it always has been, it is almost mandatory at times, until we live in a civilized non-deceitful world. In order to achieve this, blood has to be spilled, or if you ignore it, even more blood will eventually be spilled.

And watch as the middle east destabilizes because they have nukes? No one in the middle east wants Iran to have nukes.

No-one in the middle east wants Israel to have nukes. Iran having them would probably level the playing field a bit.

Theres 2 kinds of countries with nuclear arms or WMD's. There are civilized governments, and there are uncivilized governments. Take Iran's for example, they are uncivilized martyrs still living in 1200 A.D. and still want the destruction of Israel, Hezbollah too. Peaceful negotiations with civilizations like these is almost a failure since they also decept you. Take Adolf Hitler and the peace treaty he had with the U.K.. Still though, as civilized nations we must take diplomatic actions, and come up with the most reasonable agreement possible. If not then as civilized and peaceful nations we have a right to blow their nuclear ambitions right the fuck up, and take out all the rest of their means of producing anymore high powered bombs in the future. War is a natural part of life, it always has been, it is almost mandatory at times, until we live in a civilized non-deceitful world. In order to achieve this, blood has to be spilled, or if you ignore it, even more blood will eventually be spilled.

Please name one country Iran (persia) as attacked in the last 100 years.

No-one in the middle east wants Israel to have nukes. Iran having them would probably level the playing field a bit.
Something tells me level won't matter. Iran is on a one-way course to wipe Israel off the map.

No-one in the middle east wants Israel to have nukes. Iran having them would probably level the playing field a bit.

Highly doubtful as Israel and Iran would enter into a Cold War that probably would end in Iran firing off a nuclear weapon at Israel and not the other way around.

Theres 2 kinds of countries with nuclear arms or WMD's. There are civilized governments, and there are uncivilized governments. Take Iran's for example, they are uncivilized martyrs still living in 1200 A.D. and still want the destruction of Israel, Hezbollah too. Peaceful negotiations with civilizations like these is almost a failure since they also decept you. Take Adolf Hitler and the peace treaty he had with the U.K.. Still though, as civilized nations we must take diplomatic actions, and come up with the most reasonable agreement possible. If not then as civilized and peaceful nations we have a right to blow their nuclear ambitions right the fuck up, and take out all the rest of their means of producing anymore high powered bombs in the future. War is a natural part of life, it always has been, it is almost mandatory at times, until we live in a civilized non-deceitful world. In order to achieve this, blood has to be spilled, or if you ignore it, even more blood will eventually be spilled.


GOOOOOODWIIIIINNNNN

Please name one country Iran (persia) as attacked in the last 100 years.

Do you want directly or indirectly?

Highly doubtful as Israel and Iran would enter into a Cold War that probably would end in Iran firing off a nuclear weapon at Israel and not the other way around.

Enlighten me: If israel did fired first, would that mess up The Rapture, or does Israel have to be a victim for jesus come back from tijuanaa..errr heaven.

Something tells me level won't matter. Iran is on a one-way course to wipe Israel off the map.

Or tries to at least. I think Ezekiel 38 and 39 will have something to say about that.

Or tries to at least. I think Ezekiel 38 and 39 will have something to say about that.

Dude, nukes don't respect Biblical quotes.

Or tries to at least. I think Ezekiel 38 and 39 will have something to say about that.
I don't think the Bible will tell us anything about current events.

I believe that the current President of Iran has been quite vocal about what he wants.

Do you want directly or indirectly?

Directly.. if you want indirectly, you will dig hizb allah for Iran, ill dig the South Lebanese Army for Israel, and we will argue until you get raptured and i get sent to hell.

Then someone will look to my location and say "you fucks supplied to africans with weapons!" and then ill go, "who me?".. nahh.

To the point.

Directly, how many nations has Iran attacked in the last 100 years?

Dude, nukes don't respect Biblical quotes.
QFT

Dude, nukes don't respect Biblical quotes.

hehe apparently you underestimate the power of God.

hehe apparently you underestimate the power of God.
Perhaps you overestimate it.

I don't think the Bible will tell us anything about current events.

I believe that the current President of Iran has been quite vocal about what he wants.

What he wants and what God has planned are two seperate things :D

What he wants and what God has planned are two seperate things :D
And what if you've got it wrong, and it's not the god of your tradition who's really in charge? What if it's, oh, Thor or something? You know--Odin got a little long in the tooth and turned the business over to Thor and he's the one running the show now.

hehe apparently you underestimate the power of God.

The Bible was written by man, not god.

What he wants and what God has planned are two seperate things :D
Sorry, Darby's ideas are 19th century, and not "God's plan".

Please name one country Iran (persia) as attacked in the last 100 years.

Iraq and Israel they've attacked directly, and their support of Hezbollah's military wing was significant in the Lebanese civil war.

On the original topic: it's naive to think that any nuclear program is purely peaceful. And "sovereign rights" be damned-the fewer people who have nuclear weapons, the better. Especially when they're people like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Perhaps you overestimate it.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 are quite clear on the issue.

I don't think the Bible will tell us anything about current events.

I believe that the current President of Iran has been quite vocal about what he wants.

Dude:

Islam: Two branches:
- Sunni
- Xiite.

Sunni: Saudi Arabia and Prince Bin Laden, plus Palestinians!
Shias: Iran and Hizb Allah plus most of Iraq.

Now, after 9/11 Sunnis got all the street creed of being the True Islamic wack jobs (TM), something that Iran with all that mess of "liberalizing" under Rafsanjani and the other guy whose name im forgeting lost.

Now, Iran (Persia) always got this dream of being a regional power, but they need political and diplomatical clout. They need muscle, 'cause like some other muslim said "it aint braggin' if you can't back it up". Im forgeting the name of this muslim, he was black and played box.

Anyway, Iran won't stop until it gets nukes, but that doesn't mean they will fire them. Actually, most of what their current president is doing is rethoric to shore up is position not only internally, but next to his neighbours. He is playing though. But he aint stupid. Crazy, yea.. stupid.. no way.

Iraq and Israel they've attacked directly, and their support of Hezbollah's military wing was significant in the Lebanese civil war.

On the original topic: it's naive to think that any nuclear program is purely peaceful. And "sovereign rights" be damned-the fewer people who have nuclear weapons, the better. Especially when they're people like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Canada?

Iraq and Israel they've attacked directly, and their support of Hezbollah's military wing was significant in the Lebanese civil war.


I've said directly, as i said to corneliu, lots of countries supported (and support) factions in lebanon.

Iraq attacked Iran, not the other way around.

Explain to me, when did Iran fired first in a conflict against israel?

Dude:

Islam: Two branches:
- Sunni
- Xiite.

Sunni: Saudi Arabia and Prince Bin Laden, plus Palestinians!
Shias: Iran and Hizb Allah plus most of Iraq.

Now, after 9/11 Sunnis got all the street creed of being the True Islamic wack jobs (TM), something that Iran with all that mess of "liberalizing" under Rafsanjani and the other guy whose name im forgeting lost.

Now, Iran (Persia) always got this dream of being a regional power, but they need political and diplomatical clout. They need muscle, 'cause like some other muslim said "it aint braggin' if you can't back it up". Im forgeting the name of this muslim, he was black and played box.

Anyway, Iran won't stop until it gets nukes, but that doesn't mean they will fire them. Actually, most of what their current president is doing is rethoric to shore up is position not only internally, but next to his neighbours. He is playing though. But he aint stupid. Crazy, yea.. stupid.. no way.


Way, dude.

Once he has the firepower, he can whack the Jews, and even if they shoot back, he's got more than enough boyz to soak it all up. Then he'll really have the cred - Iran will be the shizzle...

Sorry, Darby's ideas are 19th century, and not "God's plan".

Actually, Darby resurrected (hehe) the early church's ideas about end time events.

Way, dude.

Once he has the firepower, he can whack the Jews, and even if they shoot back, he's got more than enough boyz to soak it all up. Then he'll really have the cred - Iran will be the shizzle...

Not a chance. Even must realise that a nuclear strike against Israel will result in retaliation by the western powers and if not him then on of his ministers will stop him. He crazy, not suicidal.

Iraq and Israel they've attacked directly, and their support of Hezbollah's military wing was significant in the Lebanese civil war.

Actually, Iraq attacked Iran and not the other way around.

Way, dude.

Once he has the firepower, he can whack the Jews, and even if they shoot back, he's got more than enough boyz to soak it all up. Then he'll really have the cred - Iran will be the shizzle...

Persia does play a promininent role in end times events. Maybe we are nearing said time?

Or tries to at least. I think Ezekiel 38 and 39 will have something to say about that.

I laughed at first. Oh, how I laughed. And laughed. And laughed some more. An actual Bible reference. It's... hilarious...

But, then my bleeding heart had to take pity. Then it remembered it was Corneliu. So I laughed some more.

Persia does play a promininent role in end times events. Maybe we are nearing said time?

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/happy051.gifhttp://www.freesmileys.org/emo/happy051.gifhttp://www.freesmileys.org/emo/happy051.gif

Please. Stop. You're killing me here!

I laughed at first. Oh, how I laughed. And laughed. And laughed some more. An actual Bible reference. It's... hilarious...

But, then my bleeding heart had to take pity. Then it remembered it was Corneliu. So I laughed some more.

Go ahead and laugh. No one is stopping you. Just remember that you laughed if what I just said happens in our lifetime. Then I bet you will not be laughing anymore.

Go ahead and laugh. No one is stopping you. Just remember that you laughed if what I just said happens in our lifetime. Then I bet you will not be laughing anymore.

Tell you what, I won't hold my breath. On the day God comes down and destroys us all with one mighty release from his jutting penis, or whatever the hell your rapture is, I'll hold up my hands and say fair play. Until then I'm going to mock you and all who hold beliefs similar to you to my hearts content.

Way, dude.

Once he has the firepower, he can whack the Jews, and even if they shoot back, he's got more than enough boyz to soak it all up. Then he'll really have the cred - Iran will be the shizzle...

He as got.. xiites! Their holy sites are all tombs, they celebrate their holidays cutting themselves.

Their ideal of a religious life is getting killed.

But that's not the point.. Iran is a mess. A complete mess. Soon its economy will crumble, already they are suffering the begining of an hyperflation, and Persians, despite my portrayal of the xiites, have actually always been a very modern people. And now they are stuck with a Theocracy that is led by incompetent fools, that wants to hold to power.

And its easier to blame the great satan america or israel for the problems than to blame their own incompetence.

My point is, the Iranian regime is screaming like a pig getting slaughtered, and as far as i am concerned, let them scream. There are several ways to skin a cat: Tomorrow the deadline for Iran to accept the UN conditions is up, and Iran will say "wesa very brave, wesa have right to nukes yadda derka derka" and shit. And I am very happy with that. I hope they put sanctions on top of them, not really though sanctions, we need their oil too. Just enough to keep their economy reeling from their own incompetence.

Because it's not peaceful. Let's face it, Iran is lying through their teeth with that whole "nuclear for peaceful purpose" crap.

That's your belief, and you are welcome to it... but issues on the world stage shouldn't be decided based on unsupported prejudice.

It is worth remembering - only one nation has actually used nuclear technology for NON-peaceful purposes... and it wasn't Iran.

Go ahead and laugh. No one is stopping you. Just remember that you laughed if what I just said happens in our lifetime. Then I bet you will not be laughing anymore.

Yeah, yeah, and when Fenrir devours the moon and Ragnarök is upon us, you'll be all "I guess I picked the wrong story. Save me Thor, save me!"

Persia does play a promininent role in end times events. Maybe we are nearing said time?
No.

*takes Corneliu over in the corner*

Listen.

You don't want to be living in the End Times, with your belief in Darby's ideas about the rapture, etc.

It might mean that you've already been left behind.

And that would be bad news for you, eh?

Which is why as a Pentecostal, I don't have to buy the End Times stuff.

A nice transition from underground nuclear facilities to biblical prophecies.

But they haven't done so. Since they have not done so, it is illegal.

The argument can be made that they are not bound by the NPT, as they are a nation ruled by a 'revolutionary' government.

On the other hand, the US has been happily proliferating for decades... yet I don't see your objections to it?

Why are you guys teasing corneliu? I WANT THE RAPTURE

I want to be sent straight to hell, were all the interesting people are!(i'm ripping off a quote of nietzsche here)

And please stop bringing the damn NPT to the table.

Only nations that dont want/cant develop nukes sign that, so that they can say to the rest of the world "look how peaceful we are, give us peanuts!"

Really nations wipe their ass to the NPT. And I ain't talking about the damn iranians.

Go ask the Indians not to build more nukes and figure out what they say!

I don't see how it is possible to justify Iran making nukes.

hehe apparently you underestimate the power of God.

Man, that guy couldn't even beat iron chariots... nukes would pwn his ass.

Yeah, yeah, and when Fenrir devours the moon and Ragnarök is upon us, you'll be all "I guess I picked the wrong story. Save me Thor, save me!"

I think I would happily spend an eternity in hell if I could just see the faces of all those fundies in the US if the world ended and Mohammed was standing there saying 'you dun fucked up boys'.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 are quite clear on the issue.

They are also just pages in a book... at least until they are proved otherwise.

That's the problem with prophecy... it ain't worth shit, till it can be verified.

Tell you what, I won't hold my breath. On the day God comes down and destroys us all with one mighty release from his jutting penis, or whatever the hell your rapture is, I'll hold up my hands and say fair play. Until then I'm going to mock you and all who hold beliefs similar to you to my hearts content.

That is your choice. Remember though that you will be responsible for the choices you make come judgment day.

That's your belief, and you are welcome to it... but issues on the world stage shouldn't be decided based on unsupported prejudice.

Agreed.

It is worth remembering - only one nation has actually used nuclear technology for NON-peaceful purposes... and it wasn't Iran.

Either that or use chemical weapons in an invasion of Japan that would have killed millions. *shrugs*

That is your choice. Remember though that you will be responsible for the choices you make come judgment day.

Or, maybe you won't... because maybe, you are waiting for an event that has all the reality potential of Helm's Deep.

Either way - it's way off topic.

You want to argue about who has the better Endtimes myth, start a thread on it, and stop hijacking this one.

I don't see how it is possible to justify Iran making nukes.

There is one: Their colective penises are small. Since they don't have hotmail accounts, and they don't get those "enlarge your penis" spams, the only way to prove their males and powerfull is to develop weapons.

Now this applies to everyone in the world. Small penises are around us everywere.

Now ill assume you have a large british cock (not that i want to know, of course), so you don't find any possible rationale in Iran, or for that matter anyone, to develop WMD, or any other weapons. Why cant people live and let live?

Frankly, the only answers i can give is that people are all mad. And very frustrated with their small penises. Ever wondered why missiles have such a phalic form?

They are also just pages in a book... at least until they are proved otherwise.

That's the problem with prophecy... it ain't worth shit, till it can be verified.

The problem I have with prophecy is that if it were really prophecy, we could all easily read and understand it, and we would know, "hey, on Aug 22, 2006, Iran is going to nuke Jerusalem". And there would be a lot of these things that would be verified as they happened, with us knowing BEFORE HAND that it was going to happen. Not some, "and the beast will have..." stuff that no one can make sense of.

The stuff in red - the stuff Jesus said - isn't like the later parts of the New Testament. He actually makes sense, whereas most of the stuff Christians get hammered over the head with comes from Paul and the others.

That's also why I don't believe in things like transubstantiation (which is an awesome word that means nothing). Corneliu, being Christian is a lot simpler than you think. A lot simpler than Paul thought.

Agreed.



Either that or use chemical weapons in an invasion of Japan that would have killed millions. *shrugs*

Or, not invade Japan with Weapons of Mass Destruction... or, at all.

Again - off topic.

I don't even know why anyone cares. Does anyone really believe that Iran could get a nuke off the ground before they are bombed off the face of the earth?

Especially knowing where this underground facility is - don't you think they are being very closely watched?

This is just another doom and gloom scenario brought to you by the fear based crowd.

Who will pwn who when it comes down to nuclear war... Israel or Iran?

No.

So we are not living in the end times?

Listen.

That's rich coming from you.

You don't want to be living in the End Times, with your belief in Darby's ideas about the rapture, etc.

You really are insane if you think this is Darby's idea.

It might mean that you've already been left behind.

Then you were too.

Why are you guys teasing corneliu? I WANT THE RAPTURE

I want to be sent straight to hell, were all the interesting people are!(i'm ripping off a quote of nietzsche here)

Hate to break it to you but you will not be sent straight to hell when the rapture occurs.

There is one: Their colective penises are small. Since they don't have hotmail accounts, and they don't get those "enlarge your penis" spams, the only way to prove their males and powerfull is to develop weapons.

Now this applies to everyone in the world. Small penises are around us everywere.

Now ill assume you have a large british cock (not that i want to know, of course), so you don't find any possible rationale in Iran, or for that matter anyone, to develop WMD, or any other weapons. Why cant people live and let live?

Frankly, the only answers i can give is that people are all mad. And very frustrated with their small penises. Ever wondered why missiles have such a phalic form?

I guess thats one way to describe it :D

The problem I have with prophecy is that if it were really prophecy, we could all easily read and understand it, and we would know, "hey, on Aug 22, 2006, Iran is going to nuke Jerusalem". And there would be a lot of these things that would be verified as they happened, with us knowing BEFORE HAND that it was going to happen. Not some, "and the beast will have..." stuff that no one can make sense of.

The stuff in red - the stuff Jesus said - isn't like the later parts of the New Testament. He actually makes sense, whereas most of the stuff Christians get hammered over the head with comes from Paul and the others.

That's also why I don't believe in things like transubstantiation (which is an awesome word that means nothing). Corneliu, being Christian is a lot simpler than you think. A lot simpler than Paul thought.

I agree that the 'rot' set in when Paul took over. It dismays me that so many follow him so much more avidly than the 'red text'.

Also - if one looks at the common uses of the symbolism of the time... 'Revelation' has already happened... about two thousand years ago, with the fall of Rome. Kind of depressing that most Christians are awaiting an 'end' that happened before their ancestors were gleams in their ancestor's eye.

I don't even know why anyone cares. Does anyone really believe that Iran could get a nuke off the ground before they are bombed off the face of the earth?

Especially knowing where this underground facility is - don't you think they are being very closely watched?

This is just another doom and gloom scenario brought to you by the fear based crowd.

Who will pwn who when it comes down to nuclear war... Israel or Iran?

Israel.. though no one wins in a nuke war, that is the A in mutually Assured destruction.

Anyway, for Iran to pose a serious nuclear threat to Israel, they would have to spend massive resources of their puny economy to field a credible force.. and like the old USSR, they will likely collapse before. Or starve like NK.

Poor Iranians :/

So we are not living in the end times?



That's rich coming from you.



You really are insane if you think this is Darby's idea.



Then you were too.


A lot of Pentecostals don't believe in End Times or the Rapture. Nor do we believe, "once saved, always saved".

The difference between Pentecostals, and the Baptists and Methodists.

Oh, and as for Darby... he invented the Rapture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

And please stop bringing the damn NPT to the table.

Only nations that dont want/cant develop nukes sign that, so that they can say to the rest of the world "look how peaceful we are, give us peanuts!"

North Korea signed it. They later pulled out of it. Iran signed it and are now in the process of violating it. We will continue to bring it to the table as it is the treaty that governs this. Hell, it even sat up the IAEA.

Go ask the Indians not to build more nukes and figure out what they say!

Is India a party to it?

Hate to break it to you but you will not be sent straight to hell when the rapture occurs.


...

Why not?

... shit, dont tell me they got limited seats there? What i gotta do to get one?

So we are not living in the end times?

That's rich coming from you.

You really are insane if you think this is Darby's idea.

Then you were too.

You might want to read around the subject... 'rapture' is not a doctrine with more than a couple of centuries of provenance.

Again, though... WAY off topic. Hijacking is a crime, you know.

Hate to break it to you but you will not be sent straight to hell when the rapture occurs.

Of course he won't. He first has to wait for the arrival of Fimbulwinter and the subsequent events before he can hope for Hel and Náströnd.

You want to argue about who has the better Endtimes myth, start a thread on it, and stop hijacking this one.

Since Iran plays a prominant role in prophecy (and not just Christian prophecy) it can fit into this discussion about Iran who has repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel.

Since Iran plays a prominant role in prophecy (and not just Christian prophecy) it can fit into this discussion about Iran who has repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel.

Except that the topic is about how 'suspicious' some people find it that Iran might want to build their nuclear facilities underground.

Show me the Bible verse that relates directly to []ithis[/i] topic, and I'll allow it. Otherwise, I'm calling 'off-topic'.

Or, not invade Japan with Weapons of Mass Destruction... or, at all.

Again - off topic.

You brought it up.

places like Rocky Flats are aboveground.

*chuckles*

No kidding. With a name like that, what gave that away?

Of course he won't. He first has to wait for the arrival of Fimbulwinter and the subsequent events before he can hope for Hel and Náströnd.How does Zeus fit in with all this? 'Cuz he's my guy. ;)

North Korea signed it. They later pulled out of it.

..And they will sign it again, depending on their rice production and on how much aid they would get. Or energy, i've heard China got NK by the balls, 'cause China supplies NK with most of its electricity, but the Chinese are getting all irritated with the comunist ideals of NK (go figure).. so NK launched a missile! It wasnt to catch the attention of the West. It was to catch the attention of China. Wonderful world.


Iran signed it and are now in the process of violating it. We will continue to bring it to the table as it is the treaty that governs this. Hell, it even sat up the IAEA.

Yea, treaties are very nice. I've heard that those that envolve money get obeyed, the others are used as toilet paper


Is India a party to it?

India does not sign the NPT stating that while the NPT limits the development of nuclear weapons to nations that dont have nukes, it does not give any sort of limitation to countries that already have nukes. And the Indians are right, actually..

Also - if one looks at the common uses of the symbolism of the time... 'Revelation' has already happened... about two thousand years ago, with the fall of Rome. Kind of depressing that most Christians are awaiting an 'end' that happened before their ancestors were gleams in their ancestor's eye.

So who was the anti-christ? Were their indications of 3 angels talking about Bablyon which would be destroyed by God? Did Jeruselum have an Earthquake during that time that killed 7,000 people? Was the city of Bablyon split into three sections following another Earthquake?

I don't even know why anyone cares. Does anyone really believe that Iran could get a nuke off the ground before they are bombed off the face of the earth?

Especially knowing where this underground facility is - don't you think they are being very closely watched?

This is just another doom and gloom scenario brought to you by the fear based crowd.

Who will pwn who when it comes down to nuclear war... Israel or Iran?


1. They could get a nuke off the ground. They already have the missiles.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/shahab-3.htm

2. All they need are the nukes.

3. Dr. Khan, of Pakistani fame, sold the Iranians the design for a boosted HEU warhead.

4. Iranians are currently making HEU.

Such a thing could be fired, and hit Israel. While Israel would retaliate, you might be able to catch their bombs on the ground in a surprise attack. They do not have the same kind of silos that the USSR and US had. No real hard sites.

A good surprise would be everyone thinking that they weren't close yet - North Korea could test their Shahab-3 (which is really a Taepodong) and watch the tests in North Korea (last one failed, but failures tell you something).

Then you launch all you have at Israel. Say, on Aug 22.

You brought it up.

No - I responded to the following comment:

"Iran is lying through their teeth with that whole "nuclear for peaceful purpose" crap."

By pointing out that only ONE nation HAS been 'non-peaceful' with nuclear technology... and it isn't Iran.

I'm not debating the relative merits of nuking the shit out of millions of civilians at the end of WW2 - I'm talking about the fact that Iran has a spotless record on nuclear arms usage... which is more than can be said for some.

Of course he won't. He first has to wait for the arrival of Fimbulwinter and the subsequent events before he can hope for Hel and Náströnd.
And you are Loki, I presume...

Of course he won't. He first has to wait for the arrival of Fimbulwinter and the subsequent events before he can hope for Hel and Náströnd.

If those are women, ill wait.. if they are guys.. they better bring beer o.o

Oh and lets not forget about the Mark of the Beast which is 666 or 616 depending on the manuscript.

So who was the anti-christ? Were their indications of 3 angels talking about Bablyon which would be destroyed by God? Did Jeruselum have an Earthquake during that time that killed 7,000 people? Was the city of Bablyon split into three sections following another Earthquake?

Babylon was commonly used as a metaphor for Rome... and there is no ONE 'anti-christ'. Similarly - Jerusalem is not a city, it is a symbol.

If you are going to read the whole scripture as literal, you have to allow that Job's bowels LITERALLY boiled in his body.

If you are going to allow symbolism in the 'poetic' texts... then I'd say it's fairly obvious that John's Acid Trip (sometimes called 'revelation) is less than 100% literal.

1. They could get a nuke off the ground. They already have the missiles.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/shahab-3.htm

2. All they need are the nukes.

3. Dr. Khan, of Pakistani fame, sold the Iranians the design for a boosted HEU warhead.

4. Iranians are currently making HEU.

Such a thing could be fired, and hit Israel. While Israel would retaliate, you might be able to catch their bombs on the ground in a surprise attack. They do not have the same kind of silos that the USSR and US had. No real hard sites.

A good surprise would be everyone thinking that they weren't close yet - North Korea could test their Shahab-3 (which is really a Taepodong) and watch the tests in North Korea (last one failed, but failures tell you something).

Then you launch all you have at Israel. Say, on Aug 22.

I'm betting you that the minute Iran loads nuclear material (there will be a lot of attention paid by several countries what material comes out of this underground facility - as well as any other questionable facility) into a missile, they will be feeling some devastating blows.

Except that the topic is about how 'suspicious' some people find it that Iran might want to build their nuclear facilities underground.

Show me the Bible verse that relates directly to []ithis[/i] topic, and I'll allow it. Otherwise, I'm calling 'off-topic'.

You do not have to allow it. If you think it is off topic, report it to moderation. Let them decide if it is off-topic or not.

I'm not debating the relative merits of nuking the shit out of millions of civilians at the end of WW2 - I'm talking about the fact that Iran has a spotless record on nuclear arms usage... which is more than can be said for some.

It's hundreds of thousands at the end of WWII, not millions.

But I digress...

Spotless records are made to be broken. Especially when a nation is duplicitous in a most egregious manner about breaking other treaties. It doesn't foster a sense of trust now, does it?

Not that the US program wasn't secret - but here we see a connection between prior secrecy and actual use.

And it's a poor sort of weapon that you spend billions on, and never use.

1. They could get a nuke off the ground. They already have the missiles.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/shahab-3.htm

2. All they need are the nukes.

3. Dr. Khan, of Pakistani fame, sold the Iranians the design for a boosted HEU warhead.

4. Iranians are currently making HEU.

Such a thing could be fired, and hit Israel. While Israel would retaliate, you might be able to catch their bombs on the ground in a surprise attack. They do not have the same kind of silos that the USSR and US had. No real hard sites.

A good surprise would be everyone thinking that they weren't close yet - North Korea could test their Shahab-3 (which is really a Taepodong) and watch the tests in North Korea (last one failed, but failures tell you something).

Then you launch all you have at Israel. Say, on Aug 22.

They still need to miniaturize the nuke to be able to deploy it in a missile though.. that's two-three more years of hard work.

Yea, treaties are very nice. I've heard that those that envolve money get obeyed, the others are used as toilet paper

When the USA gives back the 5 billions in illegal tarifs it owes Canada for their breaking of the NAFTA treaty, they can tell the world to respect a treaty. In the meantime... *shrug*

Oh and lets not forget about the Mark of the Beast which is 666 or 616 depending on the manuscript.

Another 'symbol'... the numerical code is for 'Nero'.... the text even SAYS the code is "the number of a man" (Revelation 13:18).

They still need to miniaturize the nuke to be able to deploy it in a missile though.. that's two-three more years of hard work.
Oh, you mean the design that Dr. Khan of Pakistan sold them - a fusion boosted HEU warhead design.

When the USA gives back the 5 billions in illegal tarifs it owes Canada for their breaking of the NAFTA treaty, they can tell the world to respect a treaty. In the meantime... *shrug*

:| Damn, you got me!

Now i'm sad.

Besides, it seems i'm not going to hell, so i'm doubleplus sad :(

I'm going to watch soccer. Far better than the end of the world!

Oh, you mean the design that Dr. Khan of Pakistan sold them - a fusion boosted HEU warhead design.

not that i distrust you, but linky please

i need to educate myself :|

I'm not debating the relative merits of nuking the shit out of millions of civilians at the end of WW2 - I'm talking about the fact that Iran has a spotless record on nuclear arms usage... which is more than can be said for some.

Be grateful a nuke was used in world war ii. Otherwise, we probably would not be having this discussion because we might have had a nuclear war and none of us would be here.

You do not have to allow it. If you think it is off topic, report it to moderation. Let them decide if it is off-topic or not.

Erm... right, whatever.

I didn't mean I could 'ban' it from the topic... :rolleyes:

I simply mean, in our debate over it's relevence, I am not allowing it... I do not consider it a pertinent argument... and you cannot support it - so I feel justified.

In the meantime - you seem to be intent on continuing the threadjack.

This particular attempt to derail the debate is dead to me - I'll respond to it no further.

If those are women, ill wait.. if they are guys.. they better bring beer o.o

Hel is the Norse underworld and is a place thronged with the shivering and shadowy spectres of those who have died ingloriously of disease or in old age, and Náströnd can be seen as a part of Hel where the oath breakers, murderers and philanderers will wade through rivers of venom and will have their corpses sucked by Níðhǫggr. For, it is written in Völuspá 38-39:

"Sal sá hón standa
sólo fiarri,
Nástrǫndu á,
norðr horfa dyrr.
Fello eitrdropar
inn um lióra.
Sá er undinn salr
orma hryggiom.

Sá hón þar vaða
þunga strauma
menn meinsvara
ok morðvarga
ok þannz annars glepr
eyrarúno.
Þar saug Níðhǫggr
nái framgengna,
sleit vargr vera."

A hall she saw standing
remote from the sun
on Dead Body Shore.
Its door looks north.
There fell drops of venom
in through the roof vent.
That hall is woven
of serpents’ spines.

She saw there wading
onerous streams
men perjured
and wolfish murderers
and the one who seduces
another’s close-trusted wife.
There Malice Striker sucked
corpses of the dead,
the wolf tore men.

In your country, how many nuclear sites or labs do you know of that are completely underground?

Even in the US, places like Rocky Flats are aboveground.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20060821/D8JKU28G0.html

Can you think of a reason for Iran to put an entire nuclear research site "underground"?

I mean a reason that would apply to a country honestly pursuing peaceful uses of nuclear power.Yes, actually I can. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceutical_factory) Two, if you ponder it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osirak)

Iran has plenty reason to be paranoid about its facilities getting hit, even if they are peaceful.

Another 'symbol'... the numerical code is for 'Nero'.... the text even SAYS the code is "the number of a man" (Revelation 13:18).

Yes it does say of a man. The anti-christ is a man!

not that i distrust you, but linky please

i need to educate myself :|

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/pakistan/khan.htm

With the international inspections of Iran's nuclear operations and the October 2003 interception of a ship headed for Libya and carrying centrifuge parts, Pakistan began seriously investigating A.Q. Khan. The United Nation's International Atomic Energy Agency in November 2003 itself warned Pakistan of possible nuclear leaks. After two months of investigations, in late January 2004 Pakistani officials concluded that two of the country's most senior nuclear scientists had black market contacts that supplied sensitive technology to Iran and Libya. Pakistani intelligence officials said the scientists - A.Q. Khan and Mohammed Farooq - provided the help both directly and through a black market based in the Persian Gulf emirate of Dubai. Dr. Khan and Dr. Farooq were longtime colleagues at A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories. President Musharraf acknowledged that some scientists may have acted for their own personal gain, but he denied any government involvement and pledged harsh punishment for any person implicated in the scandal.

It's hundreds of thousands at the end of WWII, not millions.

But I digress...

Spotless records are made to be broken. Especially when a nation is duplicitous in a most egregious manner about breaking other treaties. It doesn't foster a sense of trust now, does it?

Not that the US program wasn't secret - but here we see a connection between prior secrecy and actual use.

And it's a poor sort of weapon that you spend billions on, and never use.

1) The sort of weapon you spend millions on and 'never use' is a defense. It is the rationale we have used for our nuclear stockpiles for decades.

2) Hundreds of thousands DIED... the weapons were USED on millions... nuclear technology not being reknowned for it's sensitivity to borders, etc.

3) Since we are talking about Iran being untrustworthy because they have broken treaties... how is ISrael any more trustworthy - when they are signatories to the Geneva Conventions and Protocols, and yet, have acted directly in contravention of those protocols and conventions?

Erm... right, whatever.

I didn't mean I could 'ban' it from the topic... :rolleyes:

I simply mean, in our debate over it's relevence, I am not allowing it... I do not consider it a pertinent argument... and you cannot support it - so I feel justified.

In the meantime - you seem to be intent on continuing the threadjack.

This particular attempt to derail the debate is dead to me - I'll respond to it no further.

Persia is clearly mentioned in verse 5 of Ezekiel 38.

Be grateful a nuke was used in world war ii. Otherwise, we probably would not be having this discussion because we might have had a nuclear war and none of us would be here.

How does THAT make sense? If no one had used nukes, we'd all be dead because of the nukes?

Japan had considered nuclear technology, and rejected it.

And - since your little fantasy world doesn't exist... I'm not sure what bearing it ahs on the topic... thrilling though it is to debate whether or not we'd be alive or dead, if the world was different to reality.

:| Damn, you got me!

Now i'm sad.

Besides, it seems i'm not going to hell, so i'm doubleplus sad :(

I'm going to watch soccer. Far better than the end of the world!
I wasn't attacking you. Don't be doubleplus sad...

I was responding to "those people that are on my ignore list" and adding emphasis on your point.

But soccer (or football) is good. I support football. Besides, I'll be watching along with you as I'm not going to hell right away too.

Yes it does say of a man. The anti-christ is a man!

There is no 'anti-christ'.... and there are untold millions. I feel you misunderstand the phrase.

1) The sort of weapon you spend millions on and 'never use' is a defense. It is the rationale we have used for our nuclear stockpiles for decades.

I can agree to that.

2) Hundreds of thousands DIED... the weapons were USED on millions... nuclear technology not being reknowned for it's sensitivity to borders, etc.

Couple hundred thousand died from the two cities. Hiroshima had 255,000 people and Nagaski had 240,000 people. Research GnI research.

There is no 'anti-christ'.... and there are untold millions. I feel you misunderstand the phrase.
GnI, a word of advice:
If you stop responding to his attempts a highjacking, maybe we can discuss the point of this thread instead of going in circles, again, as to what the scriptures really tell. Agreed?

There is no 'anti-christ'.... and there are untold millions. I feel you misunderstand the phrase.

I do not think so but then, I am done discussing this topic.

Persia is clearly mentioned in verse 5 of Ezekiel 38.

'Persia' (biblically) was an empire, not a nation... regardless of which, the 'nation' of 'Persia' ceased to exist in 1935.

Also - worth noting, Ezekiel is strangely devoid of ANY reference to THIS topic, since it never once mentions 'Persia' in the context of underground facilities, or weapons of mass destruction.

How does THAT make sense? If no one had used nukes, we'd all be dead because of the nukes?

Japan had considered nuclear technology, and rejected it.

And - since your little fantasy world doesn't exist... I'm not sure what bearing it ahs on the topic... thrilling though it is to debate whether or not we'd be alive or dead, if the world was different to reality.

I think he's saying that if a nuclear weapon hadn't already been used in anger, and the dreadfulness seen around the globe, it's much more likely that one of the Cold War contretemps would have gone nuclear. And so the bombs at the end of the Second World War acted as a deterrent factor for future governments.

Knowing the theoretical damage a thing'll do is no comparison to seeing the actual consequences.

Couple hundred thousand died from the two cities. Hiroshima had 255,000 people and Nagaski had 240,000 people. Research GnI research.

An attempt at being patronising, Corneliu?

Are you now going to explain to me how exactly the two weapons were designed in JUST such a way that ONLY the persons within the cities directly under the detonation would be harmed?

I do not think so but then, I am done discussing this topic.

Yes - you would be.

Persia is clearly mentioned in verse 5 of Ezekiel 38.

"The giantess old in Ironwood sat,
In the east, and bore the brood of Fenrir;
Among these one in monster's guise
Was soon to steal the sun from the sky.

There feeds he full on the flesh of the dead,
And the home of the gods he reddens with gore;
Dark grows the sun, and in summer soon
Come mighty storms: would you know yet more?"

An attempt at being patronising, Corneliu?

Are you now going to explain to me how exactly the two weapons were designed in JUST such a way that ONLY the persons within the cities directly under the detonation would be harmed?

Showing you that the two cities had a population of less than 1,000,000 and that 214,000 people died. Not hundreds of thousands as you attended to.

Yes - you would be.

Luckily, I have been studying bible prophecy. I think I will take those people over a heathen like you.

GnI, a word of advice:
If you stop responding to his attempts a highjacking, maybe we can discuss the point of this thread instead of going in circles, again, as to what the scriptures really tell. Agreed?

If Corneliu feels that scripture has direct bearing on the topic, I'm willing to debate it.

Thus far -he has failed to show a link, and seemingly failed to comprehend even the terminology with which the subject would be debated, if it COULD be linked.

"The giantess old in Ironwood sat,
In the east, and bore the brood of Fenrir;
Among these one in monster's guise
Was soon to steal the sun from the sky.

There feeds he full on the flesh of the dead,
And the home of the gods he reddens with gore;
Dark grows the sun, and in summer soon
Come mighty storms: would you know yet more?"
meh. I blame Loki. If it wasn't for that trickster, we wouldn't have to deal with Fenrir and good old Tyr wouldn't have lost a hand.

Not to mention that whole killing another god through trickery bit.

Showing you that the two cities had a population of less than 1,000,000 and that 214,000 people died. Not hundreds of thousands as you attended to.

Baby steps, Corneliu... assume I know nothing.

Explain to me the physical laws that are going to stop the radioactive material from affecting people outside of those cities, first. We'll go on from there once you have 'educated' me.

(Also, worth noting maybe... 214,000 is 'hundreds of thousands').

Luckily, I have been studying bible prophecy. I think I will take those people over a heathen like you.

Heathen? Oh, I shall enjoy Jörmungandr ravaging you. Well, it'll ravage us all, but still. It'll probably ravage you first.

(Also, worth noting maybe... 214,000 is 'hundreds of thousands').Liberal lies, GnI :D

meh. I blame Loki. If it wasn't for that trickster, we wouldn't have to deal with Fenrir and good old Tyr wouldn't have lost a hand.

Not to mention that whole killing another god through trickery bit.

Oh, hush. He makes the Æsir's lives a hoot and gives them something to look forward to.

Baby steps, Corneliu... assume I know nothing.

Explain to me the physical laws that are going to stop the radioactive material from affecting people outside of those cities, first. We'll go on from there once you have 'educated' me.

(Also, worth noting maybe... 214,000 is 'hundreds of thousands').

The war killed tens of millions. The atomic bombs killed a couple hundred thousand. To say that hundreds of thousands died is inaccurate as that implies more than two hundred thousand people. Its all in the words Gni

Oh, hush. He makes the Æsir's lives a hoot and gives them something to look forward to.
oh he's always a blast to hear about. :D

Liberal lies, GnI :D

I forgot... reality has a known 'liberal' bias... :)

214,000 people died. Not hundreds of thousands as you attended to.

Wow. Just, wow. Two hundred and fourteen thousands is somehow not hundreds of thousands.

It's like a car crash. You can't avert your gaze.

The war killed tens of millions. The atomic bombs killed a couple hundred thousand. To say that hundreds of thousands died is inaccurate as that implies more than two hundred thousand people. Its all in the words Gni

'Hundreds of thousands' implies more than ONE hundred thousand.

I'm not going to redefine the whole language just to accomodate your arguments, Corneliu... really - I have to draw the line somewhere.

'Hundreds of thousands' implies more than ONE hundred thousand.

I'm not going to redefine the whole language just to accomodate your arguments, Corneliu... really - I have to draw the line somewhere.

To bad your brain can't revolve around numbers.

The war killed tens of millions. The atomic bombs killed a couple hundred thousand. To say that hundreds of thousands died is inaccurate as that implies more than two hundred thousand people. Its all in the words GniNope. It implies that at least 200,000 died. If someone has doubts as to how many it is in reality, they can look it up for themselves or ask.
Factually, the statement is correct. Your own personal connotations are irrelevant.

To bad your brain can't revolve around numbers.

Oh, the irony...

Oh, the irony...
indeed. I even sigged it for future chuckles.

Nope. It implies that at least 200,000 died. If someone has doubts as to how many it is in reality, they can look it up for themselves or ask.
Factually, the statement is correct. Your own personal connotations are irrelevant.

All personal connotations are irrelevent. Including Gni's in this scenerio :D

indeed. I even sigged it for future chuckles.

It's more sad than funny. :\ Not to say that it isn't funny. It's just marginally sadder.

All personal connotations are irrelevent. Including Gni's in this scenerio :DIt's a double edged sword, even if you are numb to the pain...

It's a double edged sword, even if you are numb to the pain...

LOL! numb to the pain. I should sig that. That is a good line.

It's more sad than funny. :\ Not to say that it isn't funny. It's just marginally sadder.
True. True. But, I'm twisted that way.

Just like you and that starmania signature. Truly not mainstream.

Hate to say it. But more than one 100,000 represents a plural. Plurals are often indicated by the addition of an 's' on the end of the word.
Thus: One cat
Two cats
Two point one four cats

On topic, of course Iran is building nuclear facilities underground.
(1) Osiraq anyone?
(2) Crazy people fly planes into high profile targets.
(3) Secrecy? I don't think so. It's not like you are going to keep it a secret from 24hr a day satellite surveilance that can accurately identify an individual from space.
Plus, Iran keeps talking-up its successes so we have a reasonable idea (combined with the last set of inspections) were they actually are and its still many years away from being able to build a bomb.

Seriously, I can hear Cheney now...
"We should hit Iran (economically or militarily) because if we don't act now they could have a bomb in 12 years...well, they could, but realisitically we are looking at nearer 18, maybe 20. I don't think the Russians are going to let them have nuclear weapon technology anyway. And Iran has a lot of its economy resting on engagement with Russia so it isn't going to risk annoying them. Of course, by then we will have reopened diplomatically links with them and tied them so closely to us (based on strategic economic forecasts for the next 40 years, particularly around oil imports) that it would be unthinkable for them to risk sanctions from the rest of the world and, rest assured, none of the nuclear nations want anyone else joining the club. Nah, Iran is no real threat. As long as we don't talk ourselves into a position that we can't back down from this will all get sorted out...hmmm...what's that...oh, shit...er

WE MUST DO SOMETHING NOW!

This has nothing to do with the political situation we are in, particularly the fact that we are in the second term...nothing...at all...and anyone who says so is a lefty conspiracy artist..."

True. True. But, I'm twisted that way.

Just like you and that starmania signature. Truly not mainstream.

Oh, no you didn't! Starmania is liquid nostalgia.

To say that hundreds of thousands died is inaccurate as that implies more than two hundred thousand people. Its all in the words Gni
Didn't you say that 214,000 people died?
Isn't two hundred and fourteen thousand more than two hundred thousand?

Didn't you say that 214,000 people died?
Isn't two hundred and fourteen thousand more than two hundred thousand?

Apparently, Corneliu's brain can revolve so much about numbers (http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11578546&postcount=146) that he can give them new values.

Apparently, Corneliu's brain can revolve so much about numbers (http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11578546&postcount=146) that he can give them new values.

Oh I have a head for numbers. :D

Anyways...I am done causing havoc in this thread for now :D

Oh I have a head for numbers. :D

I imagine you'd give a toothy one.

Anyways...I am done causing havoc in this thread for now :D

Yeah, no need to prolong it.

Anyways...I am done causing havoc in this thread for now :DYeah, I thought you were trolling again.

Yeah, I thought you were trolling again.

Someone has to bring a little levity to a serious thread. Might as well be me.

Peace be with you Laerod. It is good seeing you again.

As long as they don't mind sanctions.
There are no sanctions against Israel, yet they have illegal nuclear warheads. What is the big deal. If I was Iran, I would have my nuclear facilities underground whether it was for peaceful purposes or defensive purposes.

There are no sanctions against Israel, yet they have illegal nuclear warheads.

Illegal according to whom?

What is the big deal? If I was Iran, I would have my nuclear facilities underground whether it was for peaceful purposes or defensive purposes.

Nothing but it does make it harder to see if they are actually complying with the NPT.

Why does it matter if it's peaceful or not? Iran's a soveriegn nation, with the right to pursue whatever weaponry it chooses, as long as it doesn't run afoul of whatever international agreements it's a part of.

And just so it's clear, no, I don't care if Iran has nukes or not.

Good plan. Let a corrupt islamic regime gain nuclear power which can be turned into nuclear weapons. Because we all know that mahmoud ahamadinejad has utterly no intention of destroying israel or anything like that.

If I were building a similar site, knowing the US and Israeli lust for bombing things, I'd put it underground whether it were peaceful or not.