NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/24/tuttle_centos/

Normally I know tech themes don’t go over to well but this guy was an idiot. Despite the continual above and beyond service that Cent-OS gave this person he is still an ass to them




This tale kicked off yesterday when Tuttle's city manager Jerry Taylor fired off an angry message to the CentOS staff. Taylor had popped onto the city's web site and found the standard Apache server configuration boilerplate that appears with a new web server installation. Taylor seemed to confuse this with a potential hack attack on the bustling town's IT infrastructure.


"Who gave you permission to invade my website and block me and anyone else from accessing it???," Taylor wrote to CentOS. "Please remove your software immediately before I report it to government officials!! I am the City Manager of Tuttle, Oklahoma."

UFB. Unbelievable.

Dumb is alive and well in Tuttle, Oklahoma. :)

he was probably thinking, "Apache!?!? Get the wagons in a circle, the injuns are attacking!"

this is way old news. I have the copies of the forwarded emails in my gmail dated like 5 months ago or something.

I will see if I can dig them up.


here.

Thu, 23 Mar 2006 00:52:58 +0000 (Wed, 18:52 CST)
Jerry A. Taylor submitted the following Information:
Email xxxxxxx
Company City of Tuttle
Location Oklahoma
Comments

Who gave you permission to invade my website and block me and anyone
else
from accessing it???
Please remove your software immediately before I report it to government
officials!!
I am the City Manager of Tuttle, Oklahoma.

-----------------------------------------------

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry A. Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 18:59:18 -0600

I feel sorry for your city.

CentOS is an operating system. It is probably installed on the computer
that runs your website.

We hope you are happy with it, since we produced it for free and you are
able to use it without paying us ... and are even threatening to have us
arrested for providing to you free of charge.

Please contact someone who does IT for you and show them the page so
that they can configure your apache webserver correctly.

Thanks,
Johnny Hughes,
CentOS 4 Lead Developer

-----------------------------------------------

From: Jerry A. Taylor
To: CentOS Web Site
Subject: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:58:31 +0000 (12:58 CST)

Jerry A. Taylor submitted the following Information:
Email xxxxx
Company City of Tuttle
Location Oklahoma
Comments

Get this web site off my home page!!!!!
It is blocking access to my website!!!!~!

-----------------------------------------------

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry A. Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:45:37 -0600

It is not a website ... it is the operating system.

I would be glad to help you configure your webserver.

Do you own the machine that your web site is on, or is it at a hosting
provider.

If it is at a provider, they need to properly configure their webserver.

If it is on your machine, your apache needs to be properly configured.

I am assuming that you are seeing a page that looks like this:

http://centos.hughesjr.com/testing/noindex_new.html

If so, it tells you exactly what needs to be done to fix the problem.
If your server is at a provider location, they should be able to fix it
if you tell them about the issue.

We didn't DO ANYTHING ... that is what the default apache setup looks
like if you are running our operating system (CentOS). So how your
configuration file has been replaced by the default one ... that is not
something that we can do, it is something that might have been done by
the administrator of the machine.

IF you are not sending these e-mails via the CentOS.org homepage, please
reply to this e-mail so that I will know that.

Thanks,
Johnny Hughes
CentOS-4 Lead Developer

-----------------------------------------------

From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:54:24 -0600

I do not want this software!!!! This is the City of Tuttle, Oklahoma.
Get
rid of this software!!!!!
Second notice!

-----------------------------------------------

From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:58:23 -0600

Johnny,
Unless this software is removed I will file a complaint with the FBI.

-----------------------------------------------

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:18:06 -0600

Jerry,

I/We didn't install any software ... I am trying to tell you that.

I am asking you as nicely as I possible can to explain what the problem
is.

I have tried to explain to you what CentOS is.

It is an operating system ... a version of linux.

It does not install itself ... it requires someone to install it.

If you will not let me help you, or at least talk to someone who knows
what Linux is, then you will look like an idiot.

Your choice.

Thanks,
Johnny Hughes

-----------------------------------------------

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:46:40 -0600

Mr. Taylor,

My name is Johnny Hughes, I am a software engineer and I am a developer
of CentOS. I live in Corpus Christi, Texas.

I have been published in several magazines ... here is my latest
article:

http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/65

http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/65/CentOS_4.2.pdf


CentOS is a legitimate operating system ... that is what it is. It is
like Microsoft Windows, RedHat Linux, or Apple OSX ... It is not
possible that it was installed without operator action. I have no idea
what you think has happened, nor what has given you the idea that the
CentOS Project is involved in any way.

CentOS is not spyware, it is not spam. It does not take over websites.

If you will not let me help you, find someone you know who is computer
literate and has heard of Linux to look at your problem. I am trying
very, very hard to save you from great embarrassment.

You may certainly call the FBI if you want. I may call some law
enforcement agency or attorney myself if you don't stop throwing around
accusations and stop threatening me without just cause.

Please, for the love of God, either let me help you or talk to a
computer administrator who can help you with your problem.

Thank You,
Johnny Hughes
CentOS-4 Lead Developer

-----------------------------------------------

From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:15:17 -0600

I have four computers located at City Hall. All of these computers
display
the same CentOS page when attempting to bring up Tuttle-ok.gov. Now if
your
software is not causing this problem, how does it happen??? No one
outside
this building has complained about this problem. This is a block of
public
access to a city's website. Remove your software within the next 12
hours
or
an official complaint to the FBI is being filed!

Third correspondence to this location.

-----------------------------------------------

From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:50:33 -0600

Johnny,
This a message to notify you that your webpage has blocked an "Official"
website that is used to provide public information regarding City
Council
meetings including notifying the public of the agendas. Failure to
provide
the agendas on the City's website is a violation of the open records act
of
Oklahoma. You claim no responsibility but the city did not subscribe to
your
software and the city did not authorize you to display it when the
city's
website is selected.

You have officially been notified and given an opportunity to correct
the
situation without legal intervention. The rest is up to you!
Jerry

-----------------------------------------------

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Cc: mayor of Tuttle
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:34:18 -0600

Mr. Taylor

Stop with the FBI already. If CentOS is on the computers, it was
installed there by someone who controls the computer.

Who installed the operating system on those computers? Who is the
administrator of the computers and have you contacted them?

If the operating system that is installed on the computers is CentOS,
then it was installed by the administrator if the computer.

Are you not understanding what I am writing?

Please talk to the person who controls the computers ... or give me a
name and an e-mail address and I will talk to them.

If someone who is computer literate doesn't take care of this situation
I will be forced to send these ridiculous e-mails to your local media.
I'm sure they will be able to understand what I am trying to tell you.

Please, I have asked you at least 3 times to have your administrator,
the person who installed the operating system on those computers, to
look at them.

Thank you,
Johnny Hughes

-----------------------------------------------

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Cc: mayor of Tuttle
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:38:46 -0600

We don't display anything ... you have yet to even tell me the name of
the webserver in question.

I am very tired of your threats when you have yet to even show me what
your problem is.

You obviously do not understand what I am trying to tell you, is there
no one on the city council or in your building who understands what an
operating system is.

If you would like me to help the administrator of the computers in
question, I would be happy to. However, we did not install anything,
anywhere.

-----------------------------------------------

From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:58:24 -0600

Johnny,
I have contacted the City's network administrator wnd he has done
nothing
to
install your CentOS software. I have contacted our Internet provider and
they know nothing about your software. I am computer literate! I have 22
years in computer systems engineering and operation. Now, can you tell
me
how to remove "your software" that you acknowledge you provided free of
charge? I consider this "hacking". I have no fear of the media, in fact
I
welcome this publicity.
Just correct this problem and leave this system alone in the future.

Jerry

-----------------------------------------------

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Cc: mayor of Tuttle
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:08:05 -0600

Mr. Taylor,
Even though I have repeatedly asked you to contact your service provider
or your network administrator, you have persisted to instead harass me.
I have repeatedly offered to help you fix your issue, if you would just
provide me with information. You have chosen neither provide me with
information or contact your hosting provider ... so I decided to see if
I could find some of the information myself.

I found the website that you are having problems with by looking at
http://www.Tuttle-OK.gov/ and I saw an e-mail address of
cityoftuttle.org ... so I went to www.cityoftuttle.org and I see the
problem.

As I tried to explain to you before, that page is displayed when the
webserver in question is not properly configured.

The IP address that is returned from a name lookup of
www.cityoftuttle.org is 65.77.67.7. That is the IP address of your
server.

Doing more research, I have found that the site in question is hosted by
Vidia Communications. If you look at this page

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.vidiacom.com

you will plainly see that Vidia Communications uses CentOS as the
operating system for their server.

So, though I have told you again and again that you need to contact your
service provider and tell them of your problem, you obviously would
rather threaten me and my group.

Now, for the last time ... contact your web server provider, Vidia
Communications, and tell them that they have a misconfiguration on the
server that they are hosting your website on.

While you are at it, why don't you ask Vidia Communications why it is
that they choose CentOS to host your webserver on.

So you see Mr. Taylor, you ARE using my free operating system to run
your website, you are doing so by choice, it is a configuration error by
the person who choose to install the software and if you would have done
what I asked you to your website would have been up by now.

Let me conclude by saying that it is very hard for me NOT to send this
e-mail and all the other correspondence between you and I to
http://www.tuttletimes.com/

I will not do so, even though I really do want to.

Thank you,
Johnny Hughes

-----------------------------------------------

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:20:11 -0600

Mr. Taylor,

If there are other servers besides the one I already found ... If you
provide me the names, I'll be happy to tell you who the provider is for
them as well.

Johnny Hughes

-----------------------------------------------

From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:36:42 -0600

Johnny,
The problem has been resolved by VIDIA who used to host the City
website.
They still provide cable service but do not host the website. The
explanation was that they had a crash and during the rebuild they
reinstalled the software that affected our website.

I am sorry that we had to go through the process and accusations to get
the
problem resolved. It could have been resolved a lot quicker if the
initial
correspondence with you provided the helpful information that was
transmitted in the last messages. My initial contact with VIDIA
disallowed
any knowledge of creating the problem.

Jerry

-----------------------------------------------

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:49:15 -0600

Jerry,

I asked time and again for the name of the web server administrator or
the website so that I could help you.

I did the extra research on my own to figure it out for myself when I
was not provided any of that information by you.

I also tried very hard to convince you that the problem had to be caused
on the web server and that CentOS could not possibly be installed by
accident or in anyway take over a website.

You will notice that in my first and second e-mails, I spell out exactly
how to fix the problem and who should be contacted.

Any administrator should have been able to use nslookup, dig and whois
to figure out the problem, which had absolutely nothing to do with
CentOS.

I am glad that you got the problem fixed.

Thanks,
Johnny Hughes

this is way old news. I have the copies of the forwarded emails in my gmail dated like 5 months ago or something.

I will see if I can dig them up.
Thats only really a bad thing if it has been brought up in here before

Stupidity has no expiration date

Thats only really a bad thing if it has been brought up in here before

Stupidity has no expiration date
true.

I'm computer literate!


Heh..

From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry A. Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 18:59:18 -0600

I feel sorry for your city.
I've got to say I feel sorry for the city as well if they have someone like him in a position of power.

true.
Thanks hun for the mails … GOOD reading!

By the way that person from Tuttle is typing he is similar to the creature comonly known as a troll. Stupid even my 10 year old brother knows what an OS is

Is he related to the Senator from Alaska, what's his name, Stevens?

Thanks hun for the mails … GOOD reading!
don't tell anyone, but they were forwarded to a person in my house from a person in a certian city office who happens to be the IT manager type person.

*shhh*

don't tell anyone, but they were forwarded to a person in my house from a person in a certian city office who happens to be the IT manager type person.

*shhh*
Nice ... that guy must be horrible to work for

Nice ... that guy must be horrible to work for
he isn't much different than the normal idiot that tech support has to deal with. :p

he isn't much different than the normal idiot that tech support has to deal with. :p
Idiots are easier to deal with when they are not your boss

Idiots are easier to deal with when they are not your boss
true.

For one..Tuttle, Oklahoma puts shame to the name Oklahoma. Bunch of pussies. They give us true Oklahomans a bad name.

For two..the comment about the wagons was highly uncalled for. Apache indians aren't remotely close to Oklahoma, so why the hell would they do that anyways?

Get your damn facts straight before you mock Oklahoma.

For one..Tuttle, Oklahoma puts shame to the name Oklahoma. Bunch of pussies. They give us true Oklahomans a bad name.

For two..the comment about the wagons was highly uncalled for. Apache indians aren't remotely close to Oklahoma, so why the hell would they do that anyways?

Get your damn facts straight before you mock Oklahoma.
Yeah!!!

For one..Tuttle, Oklahoma puts shame to the name Oklahoma. Bunch of pussies. They give us true Oklahomans a bad name.

For two..the comment about the wagons was highly uncalled for. Apache indians aren't remotely close to Oklahoma, so why the hell would they do that anyways?

Get your damn facts straight before you mock Oklahoma.
And I was almost going to believe the first part of your post before reading the second. That will teach me to believe people blindly.

From: {Product Manager}
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 8:41 AM
To: A----- Selvan
Cc: {Marketing Director}
Subject: Software Version

A-----,
I've noticed that in several places (most prominently, Help-About),
there is the product version, build number, etc. Please have your team
remove this information in our next release.

______________________________________________________________________
From: A----- Selvan
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:03 AM
To: {Product Manager}
Cc: {Marketing Director}
Subject: Re: Software Version

The product version and build number are necessary to identify what
release the customer has. This is also key in our testing and quality
process.

______________________________________________________________________
From: {Product Manager}
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:29 PM
To: A----- Selvan
Cc: {Marketing Director}
Subject: Re: Software Version

Couldn't you determine this information some other way? We don't want
the customers knowing this information and need it removed.

______________________________________________________________________
From: A----- Selvan
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:45 PM
To: {Product Manager}
Cc: {Marketing Director}
Subject: Re: Software Version

We really can't remove it from the product, but, if you'd like, we can
hide it further. However, it is very discrete as is: it only appears in
the About dialog, release notes, and change log. But no matter what, we
will need to keep it accessible for support.

Either way, I don't really understand the request. Almost every software
program ever made has release information like this. Why would you
want it removed?

______________________________________________________________________
From: {Product Manager}
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:04 AM
To: A----- Selvan
Cc: {Marketing Director}
Subject: Re: Software Version

We can't be at all accessible to the client, we'll just have to find
another way.

The reason is simple: when they see "Version 2.8 (build 448)," they
will think that it took us 28 releases and over *four hundred* builds
to get right.

______________________________________________________________________
From: {Marketing Director}
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:08 AM
To: A----- Selvan, {Product Manager}
Subject: Re: Software Version

This is a good point. This is *not* the information we should be
conveying to our customers. A-----, please make sure it's removed in
the next release.

For one..Tuttle, Oklahoma puts shame to the name Oklahoma. Bunch of pussies. They give us true Oklahomans a bad name.

For two..the comment about the wagons was highly uncalled for. Apache indians aren't remotely close to Oklahoma, so why the hell would they do that anyways?

Get your damn facts straight before you mock Oklahoma.
Um this site would seem to disagree with you
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/indianlocation.htm

snip
Lol that real?

Lol that real?

afraid so....and I've had worse....not allowed to keep work emails from the companies I contract for....a policy instigated by me...not the companies I hasten to add....

99% have no idea how much damage people like you and I could do.

afraid so....and I've had worse....not allowed to keep work emails from the companies I contract for....a policy instigated by me...not the companies I hasten to add....

99% have no idea how much damage people like you and I could do.
Yeah … especially in the security field myself as well.

But in the end my word and my rep are my livelihood

I was blackhat for a long time now white, probably is why my opinion is of value

Yeah … especially in the security field myself as well.

But in the end my word and my rep are my livelihood

I was blackhat for a long time now white, probably is why my opinion is of value

Can you imagine being the FBI guy on the other end, getting the phone call?

I think I would stop breathing.

Um this site would seem to disagree with you
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/indianlocation.htm


I read that, and it states that the Apache Indians are in NEW MEXICO!

Trust me, I'm Cherokee.:rolleyes:

I read that, and it states that the Apache Indians are in NEW MEXICO!

Trust me, I'm Cherokee.:rolleyes:
Then you did not read it all the way

Hint it is under the "Lower Planes" portion

Aw hell I will just copy and paste



Lower Plains

Includes the Following States

Arkansas | Louisiana | Oklahoma | Texas

Includes the Following Native American Tribes

Acolapissa Adai Alabama Anadarko Apache Apalachee Aranama Arapaho Avoyel Bayogoula Bidai Biloxi Caddo Cahinnio Chatot Cherokee Cheyenne Chickasaw Choctaw Coahuiltecan Tribes Comanche Coaque Creeks Deadose Delaware Dotame Doustioni Eyeish Foxes Guasas Hainai Hathawekela (Absentee Shawnee) Hitchiti Huma Illinois Iowa Iroquois Isleta del Sur Jicarilla Kadohadacho Kansa Karankawan Karankawan Family Kaskinampo Kichai Kickapoo Kiowa Kiowa Apache Koasati Koroa Lipan Manso Miami Michigamea Missouri Modoc Mosopelea Mugulasha Munsee Muskogee Nabedache Nacisi Nacogdoche Nanatsoho Natchez Nez Percé Natchitoch Natchitoches Confederacy Ofo Okelousa Opelousa Osage Oto Ottawa Ouachita Pascagoula Patiri Pawnee Peoria Pinkashaw Ponca Potawatomi Pueblos Quapaw Quinipissa Sauk Seminole Seneca Shawnee Soacatino Souchitioni Taensa Tangipahoa Tawakoni Tawasa Tawehash Tonkawa Tunica Tuskegee Waco Washa Wea Wichita Wyandot Yscanis Yatasi Yazoo Yojuane Yscani Yuchi



5th one in

Then you did not read it all the way

Hint it is under the "Lower Planes" portion

Aw hell I will just copy and paste




5th one in

Umm. Yeah, That's because they are grouping them in REGIONS. They may be in the same region as Oklahoma is, but they were not in Oklahoma. You have to flippen read the flippen Apache tab.

Why the fuck are we discussing Apaches? Who the fuck cares? Everyone should just laugh at him like I did for overanalyzing a joke.

Because, I consider it an insult.

Why the fuck are we discussing Apaches? Who the fuck cares? Everyone should just laugh at him like I did for overanalyzing a joke.
True ... I am done with it ... sorry I let the thread be hijacked by someone looking too far into a joke

Anyways

Umm. Yeah, That's because they are grouping them in REGIONS. They may be in the same region as Oklahoma is, but they were not in Oklahoma. You have to flippen read the flippen Apache tab.
I did ... also found this in the listing http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/oklahoma/

Edit: now am done

I did ... also found this in the listing http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/oklahoma/

Edit: now am done

Ah, I see now.
Sorry, it's just the tab didn't really say much else except that they were mostly located in New Mexico.:rolleyes:

Anyways...
Dumbasses like that dude still put shame to Oklahoma.

All we Oklahomans try to do is make life easier, but people like him have to complain. Bastard...:headbang:

Ah, I see now.
Sorry, it's just the tab didn't really say much else except that they were mostly located in New Mexico.:rolleyes:

Anyways...
Dumbasses like that dude still put shame to Oklahoma.

All we Oklahomans try to do is make life easier, but people like him have to complain. Bastard...:headbang:
Its ok … and yes most of us don’t begrudge you your idiots we have our own

Its less about his location more about being a rube

For one..Tuttle, Oklahoma puts shame to the name Oklahoma. Bunch of pussies. They give us true Oklahomans a bad name.

For two..the comment about the wagons was highly uncalled for. Apache indians aren't remotely close to Oklahoma, so why the hell would they do that anyways?

Get your damn facts straight before you mock Oklahoma.
What? Apaches can't get on a plane, fly to Oklahoma, rent a bunch of cars and drive to wherever this place is?

Get your facts straight before demeaning Apaches!

Okay, so basically...he's a whining piece of crap on the underpants of our modern day society?

What? Apaches can't get on a plane, fly to Oklahoma, rent a bunch of cars and drive to wherever this place is?

Get your facts straight before demeaning Apaches!

If you read the previous statement by the one who made the comment, it was referring to Old Western times, not our modern day society.:rolleyes:

All we Oklahomans try to do is make life easier, but people like him have to complain. Bastard...:headbang:
it's okay, at least some of us are smart right?

btw I haven't yet met a person from Tuttle that had an IQ over that of a bathroom rug, but that has nothing to do with them being our highschool football rivals.....nothing at all.

Is he related to the Senator from Alaska, what's his name, Stevens?
The internet isn't a big truck you can just dumb things on, it's a series of tubes!!!!

Can you imagine being the FBI guy on the other end, getting the phone call?

I think I would stop breathing.

LOL and then arrest the guy for wasting FBI time!

If you read the previous statement by the one who made the comment, it was referring to Old Western times, not our modern day society.:rolleyes:
I know, I just want to join in the fun. :(

Anyway, I have to hand it to Mr. Hughes, he showed far more restraint and went much further to solve a problem he had absolutely no responsibility to solve than most people I know.

it's okay, at least some of us are smart right?

btw I haven't yet met a person from Tuttle that had an IQ over that of a bathroom rug, but that has nothing to do with them being our highschool football rivals.....nothing at all.


-Chuckles-
So I assume your from OKC, or relatively around there?

Anyways, football is a second religion on Friday nights. :p

Pretty much sold out every Midwest City Bombers Football Game!

-Chuckles-
So I assume your from OKC, or relatively around there?

Anyways, football is a second religion on Friday nights. :p
yes, OKC, Tuttle is about 25 miles, we would play them in play-offs and such.

Pretty much sold out every Midwest City Bombers Football Game!
haha, my 3 year old wears a Bomber jacket that was my husband's when he was about 3-4

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/Smunkee/AnnikainMichaelsjacket3.jpg
she is sooo cute........awww.........

0.0
Scary.
I like the Bombers for some reason...
During my years in Elementary school in MWC, they were almost unbeatable...or so it seemed. Putnam City North never won against them. :p