NationStates Jolt Archive

Van Gogh's film Submission
Working from a script written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, van Gogh created the 10-minute movie Submission. The movie deals with the topic of violence against women in Islamic societies; telling the stories of four abused Muslim women. The title itself, "Submission", is the translation of the word "Islam" in English. In the film, the women's naked bodies are veiled with semi-transparent shrouds as they kneel in prayer, telling their stories as if they are speaking to Allah. Qur'anic verses unfavourable to women are painted on their bodies in Arabic. After the movie was released in 2004, both van Gogh and Hirsi Ali received death threats. Van Gogh did not take these very seriously and refused any protection - reportedly telling Hirsi Ali: "Who would want to kill the village idiot?"

Submission (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6CakuoaCf4): That is the link to the 10 minute movie, "Submission"...I suggest EVERYBODY watch it. Then, post what you think about it.

Mohammed Bouyeri murdered van Gogh in the early morning of Tuesday November 2, 2004, in Amsterdam in front of the Amsterdam East borough office (stadsdeelkantoor) on the corner of the Linnaeusstraat and Tweede Oosterparkstraat streets. He shot him with eight bullets from a HS2000 (a handgun produced in 2000 in Croatia), and Van Gogh died on the spot. Bouyeri slit van Gogh's throat and then stabbed him in the chest. Two knives were left implanted in his torso, one pinning a five-page note to his body. The note (Text) threatened Western governments, Jews (WTF guys? Are the Jews responsible for EVERYTHING) and Hirsi Ali (Dutch politician, Somalian born...who is very anti-Muslim and supports background/id checks on every muslim who applies for a job in case of links to terrorism)(who went into hiding). The note also contains references to the ideologies of the Egyptian organization Takfir wal-Hijra.

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Van Gogh rejected every form of organised religion. In the late 1990s he started to focus on Islam. He caused widespread resentment in the Muslim community by consistently referring to them as geitenneukers (goat-fuckers). Although it is not clear whether Van Gogh actually coined the term geitenneukers, he certainly popularized it. He felt strongly that political Islam is an increasing threat to liberal western societies, and said that, if he'd been younger, he would have emigrated to the U.S.A., which he considered to be a beacon of light in a darkening world.

Political aftermath:
The murder led to a wider and more polarized debate about the position of the more than one million Muslims in the Netherlands and how they would be affected. Many non-Muslim Dutch citizens fear that Holland will lose its traditional tolerance and Western liberalism, becoming increasingly influenced by Islamic viewpoints on these issues. These fears are fueled by population growth studies and projections that show the Muslim community growing much faster than that of the "autochtonen" (autochthonous Dutch). On the other hand, many Islamic Dutch residents feel discriminated against and singled out. The increasing polarization has led to calls from many religious leaders and politicians for calm and improved communication between the communities.
Independent Dutch member of parliament Geert Wilders (who was previously forced to leave the right-wing VVD party because of his views) advocated a five-year halt to non-Western immigration in the wake of the murder of Theo van Gogh stating: "The Netherlands has been too tolerant to intolerant people for too long. We should not import a retarded political Islamic society to our country".[2] In opposition to such anti-Islamic sentiments, campaigns for a kleurrijk Nederland [colorful Netherlands], such as Stop de Hetze were started.
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When Mohammed Bouyeri (Van Gogh's killer) was shot and arrested, he had on him this poem...apparently because he was going to "martyr" himself:

IN BLOED GEDOOPT
Dit is dan mijn laatste woord…
Door kogels doorboord…
In bloed gedoopt…
Zoals ik had gehoopt.
Ik laat een boodschap achter…
Voor jou…de vechter…
De boom van Tawheed is afwachtend…
Naar jouw bloed smachtend…
Ga de koop aan…
En Allah geeft je ruimbaan…
Hij geeft je de Tuin…
In plaats van het aardse puin.
Tegen de vijand heb ik ook wat te zeggen…
Je zal zeker het loodje leggen…
Al ga je over de hele wereld op Tour…
De dood is je op de Loer…
Op de hielen gezeten door de Ridders van de DOOD…
Die de straten kleuren met Rood.
Tegen de hypocrieten zeg ik tenslotte dit:
Wenst de DOOD of hou anders je mond en ...zit.
Beste broeders en zusters ik nader mijn einde…
Maar hiermee is het verhaal zeker niet ten einde.

And..in english:

BAPTIZED IN BLOOD
So this is my finaly word…
Riddled with bullets…
Baptized in blood…
As I had hoped.
I am leaving a message…
For you…the fighter…
The tree of Tawheed is waiting…
Yearning for your blood…
Enter the bargain…
And Allah opens the way…
He gives you the Garden…
Instead of the earthly rubble.
To the enemy I say…
You will surely die…
Wherever in the world you go…
Death is waiting for you…
Chased by the knights of DEATH…
Who paint the streets with Red.
For the hypocrites I have one final word…
Wish DEATH or hold your tongue and …sit.
Dear brothers and sisters, my end is nigh…
But this does not end the story.
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I'd like to know what everyone thinks of this post ^...and the movie submission. Also, do you think it was good that Van Gogh created this movie to show to the public..or do you think it was bad that he created a movie that insulted the religion of millions.....like the Danish cartoons?

Expand on that, bitches::)

I am curious about it. However, you have to signup to see it.....

nooooooooooooooooooooooo!

That movie was made ages ago (before he was murdered LOL), I thought we Dutchies were finished with that. Hirsi Ali is absolutly not popular here, most of us are happy that she left for the US.

I am curious about it. However, you have to signup to see it.....
Doh!...Fuck, let me see if I can find another one...this is something you should see.

Edti:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6CakuoaCf4!

I don’t need to watch this to know it’s inside the “realms of free speech.” Unless it’s kiddy porn or a snuff film it’s pretty much free speech to me.

It’s definitely good that he told the story of the suffering that Islam causes. Maybe if he’d lived he could have made films about the tragedies of the other major world religions and their dampening effects on the human condition.

nooooooooooooooooooooooo!

That movie was made ages ago (before he was murdered LOL), I thought we Dutchies were finished with that. Hirsi Ali is absolutly not popular here, most of us are happy that she left for the US.
No, neither you, nor the rest of the world is finished with that..beacause even if that was made in 04 or whatever it is TOTALLY relevant to whats going on today, with Muslim-Western relations.

Its too bad ALI isnt popular there...Europe could use a few more minds like hers.

(And I doubt you Dutch are finished with this, as it was a Dutch friend of mine who brought this whole thing to my attention.);)

I don’t need to watch this to know it’s inside the “realms of free speech.” Unless it’s kiddy porn or a snuff film it’s pretty much free speech to me.

It’s definitely good that he told the story of the suffering that Islam causes. Maybe if he’d lived he could have made films about the tragedies of the other major world religions and their dampening effects on the human condition.

Of course you dont 'need' to watch it..but you really should..its very impacting.

Of course you dont 'need' to watch it..but you really should..its very impacting.
I doubt it. There’s nothing it could say that would shock me, and I tend to disregard anecdotes as untrue, exaggerated or warped by the many failing of human memory. I need hard evidence.

I am aware of the many dehumanizing elements of the Koran, as am I aware of the existence of those same ideas in the Old and New Testament.

http://limewoody.wordpress.com/files/2006/03/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again2.jpg

*sighs*
I was glad it was over when she buggered off and now this.

I doubt it. There’s nothing it could say that would shock me, and I tend to disregard anecdotes as untrue, exaggerated or warped by the many failing of human memory. I need hard evidence.

I am aware of the many dehumanizing elements of the Koran, as am I aware of the existence of those same ideas in the Old and New Testament.
Whatev', dude.

Knowing that the Koran says some fucked up stuff isnt the same as seeing it in video. Do what you want, sadly I can only give suggestions and not orders.

http://limewoody.wordpress.com/files/2006/03/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again2.jpg

*sighs*
I was glad it was over when she buggered off and now this.
Buggered off? This is something that people need to be reminded of. Its totally relevant to whats going on today with Western-Muslim relations. This and the Danish cartoons are very very relevant experiences.

All religions are fucked up. All religions have extremists, and who are we to judge another culture by our standards?

Hirsi Ali is just a wacko. Everybody in the netherlands agrees with that, even the most Right Wing people I know. Next week there will an interview with her will be broadcasted...

And really, I know what I'm talking about.

Meh .... not what I'd call award winning filmmaking. I'm sure he's pleased with his work, though.

Oh wait ....

Hirsi Ali is just a wacko. Everybody in the netherlands agrees with that, even the most Right Wing people I know. Next week there will an interview with her will be broadcasted...

And really, I know what I'm talking about.
Hear, hear!

All religions are fucked up. All religions have extremists, and who are we to judge another culture by our standards?
"All religions" dont do this.

Who are we to judge another culture by our standards? We are the ones where women are free to mary whom they want, uncles dont rape their nieces/sister-in-laws, women arnt whipped, women arnt beaten, womean arnt forced to live in the house their whole life while being forbidden to have the wind blow through their hair outside.

Thats who we are, and that why we can judge their piece [of shit] culture.

Your "who are we to judge" is retarded and disgusting....

Afterall, "Who are we to judge" the nazis slaugtering the Jews as bad just because thats not in America's culture.:rolleyes:

Hirsi Ali is just a wacko. Everybody in the netherlands agrees with that, even the most Right Wing people I know. Next week there will an interview with her will be broadcasted...

And really, I know what I'm talking about.
Why is she a "wacko"?

Meh .... not what I'd call award winning filmmaking. I'm sure he's pleased with his work, though.

Oh wait ....

Right...so this is your imput on the whole issue/video/scenario......you make fun of the filmaking and that the guy died.:rolleyes:

Pathetic, like always.

"All religions" dont do this.

Who are we to judge another culture by our standards? We are the ones where women are free to mary whom they want, uncles dont rape their nieces/sister-in-laws, women arnt whipped, women arnt beaten, womean arnt forced to live in the house their whole life while being forbidden to have the wind blow through their hair outside.

Thats who we are, and that why we can judge their piece [of shit] culture.

Your "who are we to judge" is retarded and disgusting....

Afterall, "Who are we to judge" the nazis slaugtering the Jews as bad just because thats not in America's culture.:rolleyes:
The Nazi's were european culture, hence closer to us. And who are we to say opressing women or men is wrong? You're closed mind disgusts me.

Right...so this is your imput on the whole issue/video/scenario......you make fun of the filmaking and that the guy died.:rolleyes:

*shrug* You asked for opinions, I gave you mine. If you didn't want it, you shouldn't have asked.

Pathetic, like always.

At least I don't go boo-hooing to the mods when my wittle feewings get hurt.

Who are we to judge another culture by our standards? We are the ones where women are free to mary whom they want, uncles dont rape their nieces/sister-in-laws, women arnt whipped, women arnt beaten, womean arnt forced to live in the house their whole life while being forbidden to have the wind blow through their hair outside.


What country do you live in? Here in the States, domestic abuse is a pretty big problem. You must live in a utopia, I guess.

The Nazi's were european culture, hence closer to us. And who are we to say opressing women or men is wrong? You're closed mind disgusts me.

Dude...I'm so glad you said this^. Never before has ANYONE give me such moral high ground.

LOL..I'm gonna tear you a new asshole here.

The Nazi's were european culture, hence closer to us.
Means nothing at all...since American culture and European culture are different. Come back and try again. And the Nazis were hardly "European culture" How about the British? The French? The Swedes? The Nazis were Nazi-Germany's culture..not "European culture", foo'.

And who are we to say opressing women or men is wrong?
Uh, just about every free man and woman who walks this earth. There is not one soul, not one single soul, man nor beats, that WANTS to be enslaved. If you cant see that oppressing people is wrong...you're just a pathetic individual whom I hope one day while traveling through Estonia "accidentally" gets captured and caught up in human trafficking....then, and maybe only then, will you understand that NOBODY wants to be oppressed and oppression, just the definition of oppression, is a terrible, terrible thing, no matter what country it rears its ugly head in.

You're closed mind disgusts me.
I am closed mind disgusts you??? Well your apathy disgusts me. The fact that you dont care that people are being oppressed, raped, slaughtered and enslaved simply because its ok in their culture makes you a BAD person.


Have fun sleeping at night, I'm sure your views and morals wont haunt you for the rest of your natural life.:rolleyes:

*shrug* You asked for opinions, I gave you mine. If you didn't want it, you shouldn't have asked.



At least I don't go boo-hooing to the mods when my wittle feewings get hurt.

I havnt been to the mods in over a month.:confused:

What country do you live in? Here in the States, domestic abuse is a pretty big problem. You must live in a utopia, I guess.
Some call it utopia, others call it South Florida.

Anyway, while I wont deny we have problems...they are NOTHING comparable to the problems in the Muslim world and culture.

"All religions" dont do this.

Who are we to judge another culture by our standards? We are the ones where women are free to mary whom they want, uncles dont rape their nieces/sister-in-laws, women arnt whipped, women arnt beaten, womean arnt forced to live in the house their whole life while being forbidden to have the wind blow through their hair outside.

So you're saying rape, incest and violent physical abuse don't happen in the West?



Afterall, "Who are we to judge" the nazis slaugtering the Jews as bad just because thats not in America's culture.:rolleyes:

America has a culture? Apart from war-boners and supporting nun rapists? Well fuck me up the ass with a light-tube in a "black" prison.....

Btw, Godwin.

Uh, just about every free man and woman who walks this earth. There is not one soul, not one single soul, man nor beats, that WANTS to be enslaved. If you cant see that oppressing people is wrong...you're just a pathetic individual whom I hope one day while traveling through Estonia "accidentally" gets captured and caught up in human trafficking....then, and maybe only then, will you understand that NOBODY wants to be oppressed and oppression, just the definition of oppression, is a terrible, terrible thing, no matter what country it rears its ugly head in.

Except, according to you, where the Palestinians are, because they deserve everything they get, etc and so on.


I am closed mind disgusts you??? Well your apathy disgusts me. The fact that you dont care that people are being oppressed, raped, slaughtered and enslaved simply because its ok in their culture makes you a BAD person.
.

Except, according to you, where the Palestinians are involved.

Why is she a "wacko"?

She is a wacko because she only increases the gap between Muslims and the rest of the Dutch Population. She claims that she fights for the modern yound Muslem female, but almost all youg Muslim Women don't feel that she represents them.

Now she's off to the AEI, where she belongs *hurrah*

So you're saying rape, incest and violent physical abuse don't happen in the West?
Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying and what my point was.:rolleyes:
Way to side-step my comment....




America has a culture? Apart from war-boners and supporting nun rapists? Well fuck me up the ass with a light-tube in a "black" prison.....

Btw, Godwin.
Hmm..interesting, no matter the thread, people like you can always turn this into something negative about America. Just had to make fun of our culture, or the fact that our prisons have more blacks than whites in it.

Well, you've filled up your quota for America-hating today, I guess your duty is done and you can leave my thread since you arnt going to contribute to it anyway.

Except, according to you, where the Palestinians are, because they deserve everything they get, etc and so on.



Except, according to you, where the Palestinians are involved.

Again...your strategy..diverting to the conversation to Palestinians. You know my views and this in not the thread for me to repeat them. Stop trolling.

And it doesnt say much about you that your not arguing against the guy who says oppression is ok, but arguing againt the guy who says oppression is wrong.

Doesnt say much for you at all.

And she also seems to have made large segments of her story up. In fact, shes heading off to America to work for a right wing think tank. O the shite she'll be able to spew out there....and theres a ready market for it too....

I am closed mind disgusts you??? Well your apathy disgusts me. The fact that you dont care that people are being oppressed, raped, slaughtered and enslaved simply because its ok in their culture makes you a BAD person.
People are inherently evil and have no value. So feh.

Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying and what my point was.

Taking that as sarcasm, then why do you ignore some of the horrific things that go on in Latin American countrys with regard to women?


Hmm..interesting, no matter the thread, people like you can always turn this into something negative about America. Just had to make fun of our culture, or the fact that our prisons have more blacks than whites in it.

"black" referred to the covert CIA detention centres. And that was indeed a Godwin.


Again...your strategy..diverting to the conversation to Palestinians..

...is perfectly valid, as you never apply the standards you set out here to them. You therefore do not take freedom from oppression as a universal standard. This should be highlighted.

Some call it utopia, others call it South Florida.

Anyway, while I wont deny we have problems...they are NOTHING comparable to the problems in the Muslim world and culture.

No doubt, Saudi Arabia and various Islamic communities are quite oppressive towards women. It's a major problem that is not actually condoned by Islam. Once again, the fundamentalists twist the meanings of their book.

The more liberal Muslim communities (that I know much of, anyway) such as those within the Palestinians, Lebanese and so on, hold exactly the same attitude towards domestic abuse that we in the West do. Moreover, women in these communities are free not to cover their heads and can work without restriction. It all depends on how extremist the religious interpretation is, you see.

From the looks of it, it sounds like an somewhat onesided, though melodramatic movie that is within free speech, but was made by someone who was almost certainly rascist.

People are inherently evil and have no value. So feh.
That kind of thinking is gonna get you far in life.:rolleyes:

That kind of thinking is gonna get you far in life.:rolleyes:
Life is transitory. Only death is perminant.

Taking that as sarcasm, then why do you ignore some of the horrific things that go on in Latin American countrys with regard to women?
Not that I've ever said I dont care about what happens to women in Latin America, but it isnt as big a case and as big a problem as in the muslim world and the muslim communities in Europe.



"black" referred to the covert CIA detention centres. And that was indeed a Godwin.
Regardless, America still has nothing to do with this.


...is perfectly valid, as you never apply the standards you set out here to them. You therefore do not take freedom from oppression as a universal standard. This should be highlighted.
Put it this way, bub. If the Muslim women formed a unified attack on the entire muslim world with intention of wiping it out, pushing the people into the sea, and taking it for their own...then lost this war...I would apply the same concept I do the Palestinian terrorists to the muslim women.

No doubt, Saudi Arabia and various Islamic communities are quite oppressive towards women. It's a major problem that is not actually condoned by Islam. Once again, the fundamentalists twist the meanings of their book.

The more liberal Muslim communities (that I know much of, anyway) such as those within the Palestinians, Lebanese and so on, hold exactly the same attitude towards domestic abuse that we in the West do. Moreover, women in these communities are free not to cover their heads and can work without restriction. It all depends on how extremist the religious interpretation is, you see.
But it says here, versed from your bible:

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.: Q 4:34

Dude, thats like something I would tell a women, in a joke, and then get slapped. :p

Life is transitory. Only death is perminant.
Are you a goth?

Are you a goth?
No. Goths change their apperences because they care what others think. Others are worthless, thusly caring what they think is a useless expenditure of energy. Life is nothing but the persuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain. Nothing else matters. Goths are pathetic because they long for acceptance, don't compare them to me.

No. Goths change their apperences because they care what others think. Others are worthless, thusly caring what they think is a useless expenditure of energy. Life is nothing but the persuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain. Nothing else matters. Goths are pathetic because they long for acceptance, don't compare them to me.

Dude, go crawl into a dark cave. You're depressing the life out of anyone who reads this.

Dude, go crawl into a dark cave. You're depressing the life out of anyone who reads this.
How sad it is that thy life is sucked outof thee by the mere reading of my words! How powerful my words must be, or rather, how powerful my application of the logic concerning the truth is. Let is be known that thy kind, the Goths, are exactly as I depicted them. They crave attention but get ignored due to their seeking of it.

If your illusions can be shattered by a teenager from Georgia, maybe you need a little thicker skin.
...and I'm a teenager from Florida, but you still dont need to be so damn depressing. Go outside, get a little sunshine, rub on some silicone boobs, enjoy yourself, man.

...and I'm a teenager from Florida, but you still dont need to be so damn depressing. Go outside, get a little sunshine, rub on some silicone boobs, enjoy yourself, man.
Hey, if having sex with a silicon doll makes you happy. That's your decision. I won't judge you for your pathetic and backwards practices.

I found the movie to be very interesting.
I am glad that you posted it here and that I took the time to watch it.

Thank You

Hey, if having sex with a silicon doll makes you happy. That's your decision. I won't judge you for your pathetic and backwards practices.
....I didnt say a silicon doll, I said fake boobs.

But it says here, versed from your bible:

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.: Q 4:34

Dude, thats like something I would tell a women, in a joke, and then get slapped. :p

First, you should notice that this particular verse doesn't say "Men are allowed to beat women and murder them if accused of adultery or pre-marital sex."

That said, I take issue with many verses in the Quran, and this is definitely one of them. See also the verses condemning homosexuals and so on. However, the spirit of the faith, as with Judaism, Christianity and many other religions, consists of acting justly towards others, being generous and considerate, etc. That spirit is easily (more easily, in my opinion) upheld in a society where men and women have equal rights and, for example, where homosexuals can marry. Really, the Middle East could use some secularization, but I think everyone will agree on that. It doesn't mean that they would have to give up on Islam altogether.

I found the movie to be very interesting.
I am glad that you posted it here and that I took the time to watch it.

Thank You
Of course. I'm glad that you found what I had to say/post interesting and that you took the time out to watch it.

So thank you.:)

First, you should notice that this particular verse doesn't say "Men are allowed to beat women and murder them if accused of adultery or pre-marital sex."

That said, I take issue with many verses in the Quran, and this is definitely one of them. See also the verses condemning homosexuals and so on. However, the spirit of the faith, as with Judaism, Christianity and many other religions, consists of acting justly towards others, being generous and considerate, etc. That spirit is easily (more easily, in my opinion) upheld in a society where men and women have equal rights and, for example, where homosexuals can marry. Really, the Middle East could use some secularization, but I think everyone will agree on that. It doesn't mean that they would have to give up on Islam altogether.
Right. What Muslims need to do is have a huge radical change hit the middle east. For the Jews, the destruction of the temple and abolishion of the priesthood changed Judaism from a a barbarian war-like religion to a peacefull religion. For the Christians, it was the renaissance, which trasnformed the notorious Middle Age Christianity into the peacefull religion it is today. Islam has yet to see something like this, and until it does, I do not think it is compatible with Western Civilization, mainly Western Liberalism and all that it stands for.

But since you seem like a very smart guy, I think you may understand this.

Well, the movie doesn't actually tell anyone anything they don't already know, does it. It's a bit of art, made by someone who's got the time and nerve to do it.

Obviously he shouldn't have been threatened and ultimately murdered for it.

As for women in Islam...well, it depends on the community, doesn't it. Look at the Amish, and compare it to your run-of-the-mill Anglican. There is feminism in Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism) (check out the link collection), there have been women running prayer services (although that is a touchy issue, just like it is with many Christian faiths or indeed Judaism) and so on and so forth.

Which is not to say that there shouldn't be some sort of government intervention if immigrant women are clearly being oppressed in their households. And it certainly helps to give free language courses, because the more the woman learns about her new home, the less likely she will be to just accept a lifestyle that she doesn't want.

Well, the movie doesn't actually tell anyone anything they don't already know, does it. It's a bit of art, made by someone who's got the time and nerve to do it.

Obviously he shouldn't have been threatened and ultimately murdered for it.

As for women in Islam...well, it depends on the community, doesn't it. Look at the Amish, and compare it to your run-of-the-mill Anglican. There is feminism in Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism) (check out the link collection), there have been women running prayer services (although that is a touchy issue, just like it is with many Christian faiths or indeed Judaism) and so on and so forth.

Which is not to say that there shouldn't be some sort of government intervention if immigrant women are clearly being oppressed in their households. And it certainly helps to give free language courses, because the more the woman learns about her new home, the less likely she will be to just accept a lifestyle that she doesn't want.

Two things...
1. Do you admit that these sorta of things are WAY more of a problem in the Muslim world than in the West?
2. But I dont think teaching them to learn the language does anything if the men physically wont let them pursue the lifestyle they want.

1. Do you admit that these sorta of things are WAY more of a problem in the Muslim world than in the West?
Well, I know for a fact that they're just as much of a problem with Aboriginal communities here in Oz. Or in some areas in India and China.

It's not so much a religion thing as it is a 'lack of liberalism' thing. It's humanism and the like that developed in the Western world which has made our modern society. Before that it was such as sexist or worse.

2. But I dont think teaching them to learn the language does anything if the men physically wont let them pursue the lifestyle they want.
True. But if the woman is comfortable with the language and has an understanding of the culture, she will be much more likely to pick up the phone and call the police, or some other contact, rather than just keep quiet about it as she would if she was still in Anatolia.

Right. What Muslims need to do is have a huge radical change hit the middle east. For the Jews, the destruction of the temple and abolishion of the priesthood changed Judaism from a a barbarian war-like religion to a peacefull religion. For the Christians, it was the renaissance, which trasnformed the notorious Middle Age Christianity into the peacefull religion it is today. Islam has yet to see something like this, and until it does, I do not think it is compatible with Western Civilization, mainly Western Liberalism and all that it stands for.

But since you seem like a very smart guy, I think you may understand this.

The strange thing is, things could easily have turned out differently. The Mutazilite school of thought, which advocated the use of reason in understanding the nature of Islam, was quite close to the critical treatment that Christianity and Judaism get in Europe and America today. If this school had succeeded in gaining dominance back in the day, militant fundamentalist Islam probably would not have gained any kind of following today. Link, if you're interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutazilite

But it says here, versed from your bible:

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.: Q 4:34

Dude, thats like something I would tell a women, in a joke, and then get slapped. :p

Meh ...

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiastes, 25:18, 19 & 33

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1

It ain't just the Muslims, kiddo.

Meh ...

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiastes, 25:18, 19 & 33

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1

It ain't just the Muslims, kiddo.

Yes...I am that Judaism is a very violent and barbaric religion, when taken literally. And Christianity, though not supposed to be barbaric and violent, was interpretated that way...but the point is that NOW Jews and Christians arnt the ones that are taking the bible literally, and understanding, "convert or slaughter the infidels" as actually going out and declaring jihad against non-beleivers.

Islam needs to be refomred, like Judaism did 2000 years ago, like Christianity did a couple hundred years ago, Islam NEEDS to be reformed.

I could care less what is written in your book, but I do care when people act on it, literally...and use it to rape women, or kill women who have been raped, ect.

Islam needs to be refomred, like Judaism did 2000 years ago, like Christianity did a couple hundred years ago, Islam NEEDS to be reformed.

Exactly! But these things take time.

How long was Judaism around before it reformed? How about Christianity?

You can't expect overnight success. The seeds have been planted, let them grow, man!

Well, I know for a fact that they're just as much of a problem with Aboriginal communities here in Oz. Or in some areas in India and China.

It's not so much a religion thing as it is a 'lack of liberalism' thing. It's humanism and the like that developed in the Western world which has made our modern society. Before that it was such as sexist or worse.

So would you agree that people with a culture that has not been influenced by liberalism and humanism are incompatible with the culture (that has been influenced by liberalism and humanism) of their host country?
True. But if the woman is comfortable with the language and has an understanding of the culture, she will be much more likely to pick up the phone and call the police, or some other contact, rather than just keep quiet about it as she would if she was still in Anatolia.
How do you plan on teaching this hypothetical women German/Danish/French..ect, if she isnt allowed to leave the house?

I didnt watch it. But I already know enough how primitive Islamic culture is. The Dutch people agree with me although they put it in more PC terms...


Many adults in the Netherlands hold strong views on the way Muslims adapt to the European continent, according to a poll by Motivaction released by GPD. 63 per cent of respondents believe think Islam is incompatible with modern European life.


http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/12143

So would you agree that people with a culture that has not been influenced by liberalism and humanism are incompatible with the culture (that has been influenced by liberalism and humanism) of their host country?

maybe not first genertion Immigrants, they might be too set in their ways. Second Gen. immigrants can and usually do assimilate into western culture

How do you plan on teaching this hypothetical women German/Danish/French..ect, if she isnt allowed to leave the house?

news flash, not every muslim country is Wahhabist.

I think you are comparing the worst of one culture to the best of another.

maybe not first genertion Immigrants, they might be too set in their ways. Second Gen. immigrants can and usually do assimilate into western culture

That remains to be seen. And havnt there been articles saying that the hostilities in the Muslim community are mostly among the youth? :confused: How do you argue against that?

news flash, not every muslim country is Wahhabist.

I think you are comparing the worst of one culture to the best of another.
No, I was talking about Muslim communities inside countries in Western/Northern Europe....not in the Middle East.

I didnt watch it. But I already know enough how primitive Islamic culture is. The Dutch people agree with me although they put it in more PC terms...



http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/12143
Lets hope their views influence their country's positions on Dutch immigration like the Danish have done to the Danish government.:)

I didnt watch it. But I already know enough how primitive Islamic culture is. The Dutch people agree with me although they put it in more PC terms...



http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/12143

Why does your poll (1200 people really don't represent the Dutch people) says something completely different of Dutch polls I've seen and things I;ve heared? People are not keen on Fundies, but most of us have no problem with Islam.

That remains to be seen. And havnt there been articles saying that the hostilities in the Muslim community are mostly among the youth? :confused: How do you argue against that?
is it impossible for 1st gen. immigrants to be young?

1st gen. immigrants never, ever become assimilated or even comfortable, didn't happen with the Irish, Didn't happen with the germans, didn't happen with the Chinese, Italians, or the Poles, won't happen with the Arabs


No, I was talking about Muslim communities inside countries in Western/Northern Europe....not in the Middle East.

Then it obvious you've never been in a Western Muslim Community

Not that I've ever said I dont care about what happens to women in Latin America, but it isnt as big a case and as big a problem as in the muslim world and the muslim communities in Europe.
.

Really.....Where is something like this happening in Europe?
"Over a ten year period nearly four hundred women have disappeared in Ciudad Juarez, a city in Mexico near the border with the US. Here there were many factories employing hundreds of women in transit. It become known as the City of the Lost Girls."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2003_44_fri_02.shtml

"In Guatemala, a small country not long emerged from three decades of civil war, women and girls are being murdered faster than anyone in authority can cope. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4074880.stm




Put it this way, bub. If the Muslim women formed a unified attack on the entire muslim world with intention of wiping it out, pushing the people into the sea, and taking it for their own...then lost this war...I would apply the same concept I do the Palestinian terrorists to the muslim women.

And that has what to do with building civillian suburbs on occpied land taken from an occupied people?

So would you agree that people with a culture that has not been influenced by liberalism and humanism are incompatible with the culture (that has been influenced by liberalism and humanism) of their host country?
To some extent, yes. Before you get your panties in a twist though, the extent is very limited indeed (and I have a sneaking suspicion that those Dutch in NN's link are on the same page as me on this):
Just like some sort of weird African demon cult is not compatible with Western culture when you start sacrificing people, some sort of weird Islam is not compatible when you start doing things that are obviously violating the basic rights understood to exist in that country.
That is not to say that every Muslim is incompatible (no matter how much you hope for it). It means that regardless of religion or background, certain standards must go for everyone. And if some nutcases don't want to adhere to these standards, they're violating a law and need to be treated accordingly.

How do you plan on teaching this hypothetical women German/Danish/French..ect, if she isnt allowed to leave the house?
Well, she'd have to come in first. And I'd say that the immigration department should have specialists (in this case they need to be women, ideally even Muslim women themselves) who sit down with the potential newcomers and go over these things.
And even if a woman is not allowed out of the house ever again, she knows of her rights. And it shouldn't be too hard to find a Turkish-speaking person to work in the police call centre anyways.
It's about a lot more engagement with this community. About getting the information out there. It's not a coincidence that lots of the Neanderthals in that community don't want girls who also live in Germany, they go back to Turkey and find some rube from Anatolia who has no idea about the world or her rights. Those can be easily controlled, those won't open their mouths.
But if a connection can be made with those as early as possible, the problem will eventually be solved because I think the majority of these girls don't want to spend their life in some two bedroom apartment producing lots of kids.

And again, just because you'll have forgotten by now, I am talking about a minority within the immigrant community here.

Why do people rush to rhetorically destroy Christianity in Gauthier's thread, but in this one they ruish to claim that no Muslims abuse women, or even if they do, then we shouldn't comdemn it?

Such. A. Fucking. Double. Standard.

Hirsi Ali is just a wacko. Everybody in the netherlands agrees with that, even the most Right Wing people I know.
How is this film right-wing?

All religions are fucked up. All religions have extremists, and who are we to judge another culture by our standards?
Because we've been there. We've been down the oppression of women road and we know that things can get better. Don't you care about human rights? I mean for people outside the west?

I'm sure he's pleased with his work, though.

Oh wait ....
How callous can you be?

The Nazi's were european culture, hence closer to us. And who are we to say opressing women or men is wrong?
We've learned from history.

www.amnesty.org

So you're saying rape, incest and violent physical abuse don't happen in the West?

That tends to be punished, not glorified.

And she also seems to have made large segments of her story up. In fact, shes heading off to America to work for a right wing think tank. O the shite she'll be able to spew out there....and theres a ready market for it too....
Am I the only socialist left who still believes in womens' rights?

Life is nothing but the persuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain.
Then free the women of the world from suffering and pain, and allow them to pursue pleasure.

It doesn't mean that they would have to give up on Islam altogether.
Nobody ever suggested that. I wouldn't want the Middle East to give up Islam for atheism.

Meh ...

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiastes, 25:18, 19 & 33

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1

It ain't just the Muslims, kiddo.
"Christians do it too" is not a justification for oppression of women.

You can't expect overnight success. The seeds have been planted, let them grow, man!
What are the seeds and how have they been planted? I don't buy this theory that liberalisation is inevitable in all religions. Judaism took 3,500 years to get reformed. Christianity took 1700 years. Why not Islam now?

There's no sign of moving away from this so we need to work to protect human rights. Have you joined Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org) yet?

Why does your poll (1200 people really don't represent the Dutch people) says something completely different of Dutch polls I've seen and things I've heared? People are not keen on Fundies, but most of us have no problem with Islam.
You seem to oppose fundies from all religions except Islam.

And that has what to do with building civillian suburbs on occpied land taken from an occupied people?
Can we leave Israel out of this thread, please?

Judaism took 3,500 years to get reformed. Christianity took 1700 years. Why not Islam now?


It would be good to note that Islam has only been around for 1,400 years. According to your figures, if it were to reform now it would have done so more quickly than Judaism or Christianity. So what's your point here, exactly?

It would be good to note that Islam has only been around for 1,400 years.
Well, just to throw something into the fray here...in the period between the Saracen Conquests and somewhere during the Crusades, Islam was already a very open and reasonable religion. That sort of attitude just didn't survive and develop after the stresses of the Crusades, the Mongols and ultimately the fall of te Muslim Empires.

It would be good to note that Islam has only been around for 1,400 years. According to your figures, if it were to reform now it would have done so more quickly than Judaism or Christianity. So what's your point here, exactly?
I'm saying that the age of religions has nothing to do with their state of liberalism. So far the record is pretty random. The ascension of liberalism in a religion has more to do with things that happen to its adherents than the amount of years the faith has totted up.

How callous can you be?

You'd be surprised how free one can be from the constraints of compassion when one doesn't follow morals given by some magic sky fairy they wrote about in some ancient book.


"Christians do it too" is not a justification for oppression of women.

I never said it was.

What are the seeds and how have they been planted?

There are huge movements among Muslim circles that are beginning the reform of Islam.

I don't buy this theory that liberalisation is inevitable in all religions. Judaism took 3,500 years to get reformed. Christianity took 1700 years. Why not Islam now?

Do try to keep in mind that the Caliphate wasn't abolished until just under a hundred years ago. Did you know it took 1700 years to build the Great Wall of China? That means the people who started it never saw it to completion.

What happened to patience?


Have you joined Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org) yet?

Been a member for years. You can also see by my sig that I'm a member of that other obnoxious liberal hippie hive-mind collective. Greenpeace, too, as a matter of fact.

What are the seeds and how have they been planted? I don't buy this theory that liberalisation is inevitable in all religions. Judaism took 3,500 years to get reformed. Christianity took 1700 years. Why not Islam now?

Actually, Judaism was reformed around 2000 years ago..after the destruction of the second temple.

But yeah, agreed on all the rest of your points.

There are huge movements among Muslim circles that are beginning the reform of Islam.
Huge movements? Sources? For once, and only once, I'd like you to prove me wrong in this arguement.

There are huge movements among Muslim circles that are beginning the reform of Islam.


Are these movments also large enough to counteract the amount of hatred being preached in the, middle east, as well? Personlay I think the majority of supposedly peace loving Muslims should beat the piss out of the extremists. Why you say? Because Muslim extremists are going to send the world strait into World War Three.

I can just picture it now another major conflict happens in the middle east. A U.N. resolution brings in a huge peace keeping force and in retaliation some jack ass with a mission is goin to blow himself and several thousand people with a half ass placed nuclear bomb.

How long does the Muslim Arab world think the west is going to put up with Muslim extremist, before the average citzen says " enough is enough! "

By the way the Palestinian, Israeli thing is not a viable excuse. It's a lame cop out excuse for extremism.

By the way good movie thanks for posting it. It is pretty artsy, but not worth some Muslim jackass to kill Van Ghoh ( or however his name is spelled ).

Are these movments also large enough to counteract the amount of hatred being preached in the, middle east, as well? Personlay I think the majority of supposedly peace loving Muslims should beat the piss out of the extremists. Why you say? Because Muslim extremists are going to send the world strait into World War Three.

I can just picture it now another major conflict happens in the middle east. A U.N. resolution brings in a huge peace keeping force and in retaliation some jack ass with a mission is goin to blow himself and several thousand people with a half ass placed nuclear bomb.

How long does the Muslim Arab world think the west is going to put up with Muslim extremist, before the average citzen says " enough is enough! "

By the way the Palestinian, Israeli thing is not a viable excuse. It's a lame cop out excuse for extremism.

By the way good movie thanks for posting it. It is pretty artsy, but not worth some Muslim jackass to kill Van Ghoh ( or however his name is spelled ).

Good post and your welcome for the movie. ...And it's Van Gogh* ;)

"All religions" dont do this.

Who are we to judge another culture by our standards? We are the ones where women are free to mary whom they want, uncles dont rape their nieces/sister-in-laws, women arnt whipped, women arnt beaten, womean arnt forced to live in the house their whole life while being forbidden to have the wind blow through their hair outside.

Thats who we are, and that why we can judge their piece [of shit] culture.

Your "who are we to judge" is retarded and disgusting....

Afterall, "Who are we to judge" the nazis slaugtering the Jews as bad just because thats not in America's culture.:rolleyes:

yeah whatever,because no western women is ever beaten,raped by their uncles or forced to live in their houses without being aloud outside.Mnay hindu's and indians have arranges marriages-I dont belive it is right but you dont get peopleon websites going nuts aboput how vile indians and hindu's are-but if its a muslim doing it-shock horror!
If someone was saying the things that you are are saying about muslims about jews you would go nuts and start jumping up and down saying 'holocaust denier'or 'anti semite'Being a hypocrit is not an appealing personality trait...
Believe me, all cultres have vile aspects,humans are vile-we in the west think we are better than the'muslims' but we are no better and no worse.
Once again you have no fucking clue what your talking about.....

yeah whatever,because no western women is ever beaten,raped by their uncles or forced to live in their houses without being aloud outside.Mnay hindu's and indians have arranges marriages-I dont belive it is right but you dont get peopleon websites going nuts aboput how vile indians and hindu's are-but if its a muslim doing it-shock horror!
If someone was saying the things that you are are saying about muslims about jews you would go nuts and start jumping up and down saying 'holocaust denier'or 'anti semite'Being a hypocrit is not an appealing personality trait...
Believe me, all cultres have vile aspects,humans are vile-we in the west think we are better than the'muslims' but we are no better and no worse.
Once again you have no fucking clue what your talking about.....

pyotr's law: in a comparison of society (X)'s worst aspects with society (Y)'s best aspects society X will always come out worse

That tends to be punished, not glorified.?

Where is incest etc "glorified" in Islam and in practice in modern Islam?


Am I the only socialist left who still believes in womens' rights?.?

The person in question made up sections of her story. Interviews with her family do not show somebody from the background she described. She has in fact stated that she intends to work for a right wing think tank in the states. Precisely how does my mentioning this have anything to do with my belief or otherwise in womens rights?


Can we leave Israel out of this thread, please?

You'll find that its largely support of Israel and a distinctly right wing American agenda that leads to these threads, not concern for women.

yeah whatever,because no western women is ever beaten,raped by their uncles or forced to live in their houses without being aloud outside.Mnay hindu's and indians have arranges marriages-I dont belive it is right but you dont get peopleon websites going nuts aboput how vile indians and hindu's are-but if its a muslim doing it-shock horror!
If someone was saying the things that you are are saying about muslims about jews you would go nuts and start jumping up and down saying 'holocaust denier'or 'anti semite'Being a hypocrit is not an appealing personality trait...
Believe me, all cultres have vile aspects,humans are vile-we in the west think we are better than the'muslims' but we are no better and no worse.
Once again you have no fucking clue what your talking about.....
If I was your teacher (I'm hoping your a student and there is still time for you to improve your writing skills), I would fail you for incoherent rambling.

Given that, you are totally going off in the wrong direction, not addressing what I have said, except with a "Yeah whatever", and somehow bringing Jews and holocaust deniers into this.

Exactly how am I being a hypocrit?

Jesus, come back once you've taken English and Expression 101...also, and little reading comprehension wouldnt hurt.

Nothing wrong with the film. If you don't like it, don't pay to see it.

No one is forcing anyone to see it.

Equally outrageous (from a blaspheming perspective) movies made about other religions, and I don't see them killing the director.

Nothing wrong with the film. If you don't like it, don't pay to see it.

No one is forcing anyone to see it.

Equally outrageous (from a blaspheming perspective) movies made about other religions, and I don't see them killing the director.

The director was killed by a man with a history of psychiaric problems......

The director was killed by a man with a history of psychiaric problems......
But he was in cahoots with a larger Muslim organization....are you saying everyone in that group had pschiatric problems?

But he was in cahoots with a larger Muslim organization....are you saying everyone in that group had pschiatric problems?

No, I'm saying that its the usual "dig up a loony" effort. Its like throwing Pat Robertson at all christians.

No, I'm saying that its the usual "dig up a loony" effort. Its like throwing Pat Robertson at all christians.
But, like I said, this guy was part of a larger organization....its not really digging up a loony...but exposing organizations that think the way this tool did.

And by the way, dont compare Pat Robertson to this dead terrorist scum-bag....Pat Robertsons views arnt as extreme as this guys, and even if they were, it wouldnt mean anything because he has never slaughtered innocents for his views.

There is not one soul, not one single soul, man nor beats, that WANTS to be enslaved.

Beats have souls? And what if they're into BDSM?

Pat Robertsons views arnt as extreme as this guys.
No?

Many of Robertson's views mirror those of the evangelical activist Jerry Falwell, who has made frequent appearances on The 700 Club. He agreed with Falwell when Falwell stated [12] that the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks were caused by "pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays, lesbians, the ACLU and the People for the American Way."

After public outcry regarding the dialogue, which was conducted via television monitor and took place only days after the attacks, Robertson claimed that his earpiece was malfunctioning, and that he was unaware of what he was agreeing with at the time.


I'd call blaming Sept. 11 on gays pretty fucking extreme.

There is not one soul, not one single soul, man nor beats, that WANTS to be enslaved.

Don't be silly. The overwhelming majority of humans wants someone to tell them what to do so they do not have to think themselves.

Don't be silly. The overwhelming majority of humans wants someone to tell them what to do so they do not have to think themselves. Thats not that humans want to be enslaved, but rahter they want an efficient soceity, with order. I agree.

Beats have souls? And what if they're into BDSM?
Oh, Ha-Ha.:rolleyes:

And by the way, dont compare Pat Robertson to this dead terrorist scum-bag....Pat Robertsons views arnt as extreme as this guys, and even if they were, it wouldnt mean anything because he has never slaughtered innocents for his views.

So they arent but if they are, they arent.


"Among his more controversial statements, Robertson has described feminism as a "socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."[11] Many of Robertson's views mirror those of the evangelical activist Jerry Falwell, who has made frequent appearances on The 700 Club. He agreed with Falwell when Falwell stated [12] that the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks were caused by "pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays, lesbians, the ACLU and the People for the American Way."

After public outcry regarding the dialogue, which was conducted via television monitor and took place only days after the attacks, Robertson claimed that his earpiece was malfunctioning, and that he was unaware of what he was agreeing with at the time.

On the June 8, 1998 edition of his show, Robertson denounced Orlando, Florida and Disney World for allowing a privately sponsored "Gay Days" weekend. Robertson stated that the acceptance of homosexuality could result in hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, terrorist bombings and "possibly a meteor."[13] The resulting outcry prompted Robertson to return to the topic on June 24, where he quoted the Book of Revelation to support his claims."
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:MC5vnUMCgM0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson+&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=1

So they arent but if they are, they arent.


"Among his more controversial statements, Robertson has described feminism as a "socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."[11] Many of Robertson's views mirror those of the evangelical activist Jerry Falwell, who has made frequent appearances on The 700 Club. He agreed with Falwell when Falwell stated [12] that the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks were caused by "pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays, lesbians, the ACLU and the People for the American Way."

After public outcry regarding the dialogue, which was conducted via television monitor and took place only days after the attacks, Robertson claimed that his earpiece was malfunctioning, and that he was unaware of what he was agreeing with at the time.

On the June 8, 1998 edition of his show, Robertson denounced Orlando, Florida and Disney World for allowing a privately sponsored "Gay Days" weekend. Robertson stated that the acceptance of homosexuality could result in hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, terrorist bombings and "possibly a meteor."[13] The resulting outcry prompted Robertson to return to the topic on June 24, where he quoted the Book of Revelation to support his claims."
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:MC5vnUMCgM0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson+&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=1

No?



I'd call blaming Sept. 11 on gays pretty fucking extreme.

Guys, who gives a shit...you conveintly left out my second part. He hasnt harmed a single hair on anyones head...even in accordance with his religous/political views.

You are so quick to do the " but the Christians..." bit that you have failed to answer the second part of my post. It doesnt matter what he thinks because he isnt a murdering savage, like Van Gogh's slayer.

Guys, who gives a shit...you conveintly left out my second part. He hasnt harmed a single hair on anyones head...even in accordance with his religous/political views.

You are so quick to do the " but the Christians..." bit that you have failed to answer the second part of my post. It doesnt matter what he thinks because he isnt a murdering savage, like Van Gogh's slayer.
One guy has untold influence over millions.

Another guy, killed a film-maker.... oh, and he happened to be clinically insane.

See the difference?

The director was killed by a man with a history of psychiaric problems......
And how many others without psychiatric problems thought it was a good thing? And who were they?

And how many others without psychiatric problems thought it was a good thing? And who were they?

uuuuuuhhhh......what?:confused:

One guy has untold influence over millions.

Another guy, killed a film-maker.... oh, and he happened to be clinically insane.

See the difference?

Of course I see the different, foo'. I was ARGUING the difference.:rolleyes: :p

What the hells your point?:confused:

If I was your teacher (I'm hoping your a student and there is still time for you to improve your writing skills), I would fail you for incoherent rambling.

Given that, you are totally going off in the wrong direction, not addressing what I have said, except with a "Yeah whatever", and somehow bringing Jews and holocaust deniers into this.

Exactly how am I being a hypocrit?

Jesus, come back once you've taken English and Expression 101...also, and little reading comprehension wouldnt hurt.

oooh, what a coincidence, I just got into one of the top british uni's today(thanks to my v good esults).
I love your reasoning, just cos you dont understand what Im trying to say to you,you decide to criticise my spelling.....Im just ...so...hurt!!:p Like I give a shit how I spell and punctuate when Im online.
What I trying to point out to you was, that if someone said to you that jewish culture was vile(ect ect including all the other lovely comments you have decided to make against the whole muslim community)you would be saying that who ever said this was an anti-semite/holocaust denier,that is being hypocritical.Capisco?

So they arent but if they are, they arent.


"Among his more controversial statements, Robertson has described feminism as a "socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."[11] Many of Robertson's views mirror those of the evangelical activist Jerry Falwell, who has made frequent appearances on The 700 Club. He agreed with Falwell when Falwell stated [12] that the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks were caused by "pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays, lesbians, the ACLU and the People for the American Way."

After public outcry regarding the dialogue, which was conducted via television monitor and took place only days after the attacks, Robertson claimed that his earpiece was malfunctioning, and that he was unaware of what he was agreeing with at the time.

On the June 8, 1998 edition of his show, Robertson denounced Orlando, Florida and Disney World for allowing a privately sponsored "Gay Days" weekend. Robertson stated that the acceptance of homosexuality could result in hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, terrorist bombings and "possibly a meteor."[13] The resulting outcry prompted Robertson to return to the topic on June 24, where he quoted the Book of Revelation to support his claims."
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:MC5vnUMCgM0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson+&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=1

But dont you understand?They are not extremists,because they are not Muslims!!!

oooh, what a coincidence, I just got into one of the top british uni's today(thanks to my v good esults).
I love your reasoning, just cos you dont understand what Im trying to say to you,you decide to criticise my spelling.....Im just ...so...hurt!!:p Like I give a shit how I spell and punctuate when Im online.
What I trying to point out to you was, that if someone said to you that jewish culture was vile(ect ect including all the other lovely comments you have decided to make against the whole muslim community)you would be saying that who ever said this was an anti-semite/holocaust denier,that is being hypocritical.Capisco?
First of all..that still has nothing to do with what I was saying...and your only reply to what I was saying was "yeah, whatever".

Second of all, give me some reasons one would call "Jewish Culture" (whatev' that is) vile and barbaric?

Then we can see if I get mad, "Capisco"?

But dont you understand?They are not extremists,because they are not Muslims!!!
Has he ever hurt anyone because of his views?

Oh, Ha-Ha.:rolleyes:

Well I thought it was funny. :p

Well I thought it was funny. :p
lol, well I guess in your heart, thats what counts?:p

They wouldnt,I happen to think many aspects of Jewish culture are admirable, but I also think the same of Islam(obviously not the extremists-I hate extremists of any religion).
You still arent getting my point.
Some of the things you have said about Islam are,frankly,bigoted.
If I were to say the equivilant comments about Judaism Im am 100% sure you would call me an anti-semite.
This is hypocritical,as all religions have faults, but you seem to be able to say things about Islam and Muslims that no-one would be allowed to say about Jews, cos muslims are are scapegoats at the moment -as jews have been through most of the last millenia!

Has he ever hurt anyone because of his views?
There are plenty of christians who have,for example, blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors.Islam isnt the only religion with followers who like to blow things up.
BTW there are a few extremist muslim clerics who expressed similar veiws,and have never killed anyone.....but that doesnt count,does it?

There are plenty of christians who have,for example, blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors.Islam isnt the only religion with followers who like to blow things up.
BTW there are a few extremist muslim clerics who expressed similar veiws,and have never killed anyone.....but that doesnt count,does it?
Any Christians kill a movie director? Because of the religious or blasphemous content of his film?

They wouldnt,I happen to think many aspects of Jewish culture are admirable, but I also think the same of Islam(obviously not the extremists-I hate extremists of any religion).
You still arent getting my point.
Some of the things you have said about Islam are,frankly,bigoted.
If I were to say the equivilant comments about Judaism Im am 100% sure you would call me an anti-semite.
This is hypocritical,as all religions have faults, but you seem to be able to say things about Islam and Muslims that no-one would be allowed to say about Jews, cos muslims are are scapegoats at the moment -as jews have been through most of the last millenia!
And my point was...that nothing I said could be said about Jews...and I was waiting for you to try.

So go ahead...prove me hypocritical...say what I said about muslims..about Jews. But back up your statements with reasons deriving from real current events.

There are plenty of christians who have,for example, blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors.Islam isnt the only religion with followers who like to blow things up.
BTW there are a few extremist muslim clerics who expressed similar veiws,and have never killed anyone.....but that doesnt count,does it?
Plenty? PLENTY?

Prove it.

Plenty? PLENTY?

Prove it.

Just don't start denying they don't exist at all.

lol, well I guess in your heart, thats what counts?

Indeed. :D

And how many others without psychiatric problems thought it was a good thing? And who were they?

Probably far less than the numbers in the same situation when Ronnie Raygun was shot, I'd say that much.

Was he a christian? That could make all the difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You'd be surprised how free one can be from the constraints of compassion when one doesn't follow morals given by some magic sky fairy they wrote about in some ancient book.
Aren't you a Buddhist? Those guys tend to be pretty compassionate. Buddhism shares the golden rule, that one should do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.

How can you be so insensitive to Theo van Gogh's family, and the Dutch people? Do you make fun of every murder victim, or do you feel that killing van Gogh was justified because he offended a few radicals?

I never said it was.
Then why bring up Christians at all?

There are huge movements among Muslim circles that are beginning the reform of Islam.
What movements? Where?

Do try to keep in mind that the Caliphate wasn't abolished until just under a hundred years ago. Did you know it took 1700 years to build the Great Wall of China? That means the people who started it never saw it to completion.

What happened to patience?
I'm not against patience. I just am afraid that human rights will never advance in the ME if we do nothing.

Been a member for years. You can also see by my sig that I'm a member of that other obnoxious liberal hippie hive-mind collective. Greenpeace, too, as a matter of fact.
Hello, fellow Amnesty member! I hope you're not one of those who believes that human rights must be applied right now, but only for Western countries, are you?

A lot of human rights defenders seem to be failing to realise the severity of the threat to human rights posed by Islamic fundamentalism.

yeah whatever,because no western women is ever beaten,raped by their uncles or forced to live in their houses without being aloud outside.
They key difference is that if you're a patriarch who confines a woman in a house, criminal charges can be brought against you in the west. In the Middle East it's "a private family affair".


Believe me, all cultres have vile aspects,humans are vile-we in the west think we are better than the'muslims' but we are no better and no worse.
Our culture is better, because it respects human rights more.

Why do you trivialise all the advances in human rights made by the West?

Where is incest etc "glorified" in Islam and in practice in modern Islam?
Rape, violence and murder are used as "legitimate family punishments" in many parts of the Middle East. Not everywhere in the Muslim world, but it's more common there than here.

Precisely how does my mentioning this have anything to do with my belief or otherwise in womens rights?
I'm talking about women's rihts in the Middle East in general, not just this film. Women don't have equal rights there.

You'll find that its largely support of Israel and a distinctly right wing American agenda that leads to these threads, not concern for women.
Isn't it odd that ten years ago, I would be considered to be sticking up for women's rights, but now I am apparently aligning myself with the American right? I'm against the US Right, but that doesn't mean I have to support their enemies.

Seriously, why the fuck shouldn't I criticise Iran, just because Bush does?

Why can't we all just unite in support women's rights?

No, I'm saying that its the usual "dig up a loony" effort. Its like throwing Pat Robertson at all christians.
How many times must I say it? I don't blame all Muslims for loonies like this. I don't even expect them to specifically condemn it.

The reason there's an Islamist connection is because the guy pinned a fundamentalist document to Theo's chest with the knife.

oooh, what a coincidence, I just got into one of the top british uni's today(thanks to my v good esults).
I love your reasoning, just cos you dont understand what Im trying to say to you,you decide to criticise my spelling.....Im just ...so...hurt!!:p Like I give a shit how I spell and punctuate when Im online.
What I trying to point out to you was, that if someone said to you that jewish culture was vile(ect ect including all the other lovely comments you have decided to make against the whole muslim community)you would be saying that who ever said this was an anti-semite/holocaust denier,that is being hypocritical.Capisco?

Maybe you should start to care about grammar and spelling on the internet. It makes you seem more intelligent (no matter how unintelligent you really are). Also it makes you seem better then just some 13 year old punk. Also in what way is the jewish community vile? Do they stone their women, is it an honor to stone a woman in jewish culture? No. This isn't an attack on muslims because they are muslim and whatnot, this is because they are barbaric humans, they believe in medieval ways of justice and punishment. If you never went to school, would you know the difference between right and wrong? Would you think its ok to stone a woman, or beat her? You would know that its wrong, because of human nature. These people are lacking that kind of feeling, they are almost like dogs, they have no feelings or sensitivity.

Maybe you should start to care about grammar and spelling on the internet. It makes you seem more intelligent (no matter how unintelligent you really are). Also it makes you seem better then just some 13 year old punk. Also in what way is the jewish community vile? Do they stone their women, is it an honor to stone a woman in jewish culture? No. This isn't an attack on muslims because they are muslim and whatnot, this is because they are barbaric humans, they believe in medieval ways of justice and punishment. If you never went to school, would you know the difference between right and wrong? Would you think its ok to stone a woman, or beat her? You would know that its wrong, because of human nature. These people are lacking that kind of feeling, they are almost like dogs, they have no feelings or sensitivity.

In how many places is stoning acceptable in the Middle East?
Not in Lebanon, certainly. Nor in Syria, or Jordan (although most of the "honor killing" cases seem to have occurred there). The Palestinians don't accept these practices. Neither does Iraq or most of the Gulf states. I'm fairly certain that it doesn't happen in North Africa, although I'm no expert on that region.

I know that Saudi Arabia has some barbaric forms of punishment, but these relate to men and women alike (hanging, the cutting off of hands for theft). I can't say about any of the countries east of Iraq, except that I've consistently heard Indonesia called the most tolerant Muslim country in the world, so I assume they don't practice stoning, either.

You have to be careful not to lump every country and every sect into one entity. Egyptian and Iraqi cultures are very different. Moroccans and Yemenis don't share much of a common history. It's as if I said "Chile and Mexico have the same culture because they're both Catholic, Latino and speak Spanish." They're really totally different.

Maybe you should start to care about grammar and spelling on the internet. It makes you seem more intelligent (no matter how unintelligent you really are). Also it makes you seem better then just some 13 year old punk. Also in what way is the jewish community vile? Do they stone their women, is it an honor to stone a woman in jewish culture? No. This isn't an attack on muslims because they are muslim and whatnot, this is because they are barbaric humans, they believe in medieval ways of justice and punishment. If you never went to school, would you know the difference between right and wrong? Would you think its ok to stone a woman, or beat her? You would know that its wrong, because of human nature. These people are lacking that kind of feeling, they are almost like dogs, they have no feelings or sensitivity.
Any problems you have with Islam the religion you also have with Judaism the religion, because their rulesets are too similar to do anything but nitpick.
On the second half, humans don't have an innate right and wrong. It's a deepset social construct with many interpretations. The nations you're talking about(yes, NATIONS, not all of Iran is as crazy as Ahmedinejad is), do not happen to have those things in their view of wrong.
You'll notice that there are more subtle differences then that, for example:
About half the US sees gays as wrong. The other half(including me and most of NS) doesn't. 99% or so of the US sees women not wearing a headscarf as not wrong. The more religious you go in islam, the lower that number goes. Decent amounts of the US see not believing in Jesus as wrong. Get far into the other two abrahamic religions and you have the opposite effect.

If you never went to school, would you know the difference between right and wrong? .

YEs, he would. Values are supposed to be taught at home, not at school.

There is no way in hell I'm reading all of that. Just add an option that says I have the right opinion on this topic. Whatever it is.

Maybe you should start to care about grammar and spelling on the internet.
That battle has been fought and lost. The dead are buried. Give that one up, you can't win.

Probably far less than the numbers in the same situation when Ronnie Raygun was shot, I'd say that much.

Was he a christian? That could make all the difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, he did it for Jodie Foster.

Better watch those Jodie Foster fans.

Meh .... not what I'd call award winning filmmaking. I'm sure he's pleased with his work, though.

Oh wait ....
Yeah. Ha! That's funny that you forgot a guy got shot eight times in public, had his throat slit and was then stabbed twice in the chest for making a movie. Hahahahahaha!!!!! I love when people get killed for exercising their free speech! It's great! I always like to make jokes about it. :p