NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209474,00.html


SALT LAKE CITY — Calling their lives blessed, more than a dozen children and young adults from polygamist families in Utah spoke at a rally, calling for a change in state laws and the right to live the life and religion they choose.

"Because of our beliefs, many of our people have been incarcerated and had their basic human rights stripped of them, namely life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," said a 19-year-old identified only as Tyler. "I didn't come here today to ask for your permission to live my beliefs. I shouldn't have to."

Polygamy is banned in the Utah Constitution and is a felony offense. The rally was unusual because those who practice polygamy typically try to live under the radar.

It drew about 250 supporters to City Hall on Saturday, said Mary Batchelor, co-founder of Principle Voices of Polygamy, which helped organize the event.

The youths, ages 10 to 20, belong to various religious sects, as well as families that practice polygamy independent of religious affiliation. They said they spoke voluntarily. They gave only their first names, saying they were protecting the privacy of their parents.

Dressed in flip-flops and blue jeans, bangs drooping over their eyes, the teens at Saturday's rally talked on cell phones and played rock music, singing lyrics written to defend their family life.

All of the speakers praised their parents and families and said their lives were absent of the abuse, neglect, forced marriages and other "horror stories" sometimes associated with polygamist communities.

Speakers said that with "dozens of siblings" and multiple "moms" they are well supported, encouraged to be educated, and can make their own choices about marriage.

"We are not brainwashed, mistreated, neglected, malnourished, illiterate, defective or dysfunctional," 17-year-old Jessica said. "My brothers and sisters are freethinking, independent people; some who have chosen this lifestyle, while others have branched out to a diversity of religions."

First brought to Utah by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1846, polygamy was abandoned by Mormons as a condition of statehood in 1890. The church now excommunicates members found to be practicing plural marriage. It also disavows those who call themselves "fundamentalist Mormons," although most Utah-based polygamists identify themselves with those terms.

Fundamentalists split with the Mormon church in the 19th century and continue to believe plural marriage is the key to eternal salvation.



http://forums.site5.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif http://forums.site5.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif http://forums.site5.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif

Sorry, I just can't help it.

I don't see the funny. These kids should be lauded.

I don't see the funny. These kids should be lauded.


For what? I feel sorry for those poor kids.

For what?

For standing up for themselves and their families to all the ass holes who'd tell them their families aren't good enough, or are somehow bad.

I feel sorry for those poor kids.

I feel sorry for you, so it evens out.

For standing up for themselves and their families to all the ass holes who'd tell them their families aren't good enough, or are somehow bad.



I feel sorry for you, so it evens out.


:rolleyes:

click

:rolleyes:

click

Such rapier wit.

For what? I feel sorry for those poor kids.

For what ? They believe in the spreading of love. Is that so horrible ?

For what ? They believe in the spreading of love. Is that so horrible ?


Are you kidding me? :rolleyes:


These brainwashed kids really believe the way to salvation is thru polygamy..That is a lie! They are living a lie.

These brainwashed kids really believe the way to salvation is thru polygamy..That is a lie! They are living a lie.

It's just as much of a lie as "God only wants monogamy". Who are you do dictate what these people believe or don't believe? And what exactly is wrong with polygamy (as long as all members are consenting adults)?

These brainwashed kids really believe the way to salvation is thru polygamy..That is a lie! They are living a lie.

So are most people believing salvation comes through other actions. At least polygamy isn't harmful to others; provided they limit themselves to adults.

These brainwashed kids really believe the way to salvation is thru polygamy..That is a lie! They are living a lie.

And of course you, of all people, know the "way to salvation." :rolleyes:

So are most people believing salvation comes through other actions. At least polygamy isn't harmful to others; provided they limit themselves to adults.


What makes you think it ia limited to adults? I have a feeling you never looked into these things. But I expect no less from Liberals, you believe everything is ok and nothing is wrong....Unless a conservative says its' ok...Then its a crime. Its true you know.

What makes you think it ia limited to adults?

I don't. That is why I added the requirement.

But I expect no less from Liberals, you believe everything is ok and nothing is wrong....Unless a conservative says its' ok...Then its a crime. Its true you know.

Actually I personally believe in argumentation. If a person can give decent arguments as to why something is wrong, I listen. You on the other hand seem to prefer to attack persons instead of actually adressing issues.

If you wish to define my stance as Liberal and yours as Conservative that's up to you.

I don't. That is why I added the requirement.



Actually I personally believe in argumentation. If a person can give decent arguments as to why something is wrong, I listen. You on the other hand seem to prefer to attack persons instead of actually adressing issues.

If you wish to define my stance as Liberal and yours as Conservative that's up to you.


I am not a conservative. If you think I attack, read Baguetten's posts, thats all he does. :rolleyes: I would respond to him if he didn't. Of course I gave up arguing with you people a long time ago....Never does any good. So I think its sick and will stick with that, nothing I can say will make any of you agree with me anyway.

I am not a conservative. If you think I attack, read Baguetten's posts, thats all he does. :rolleyes: I would respond to him if he didn't. Of course I gave up arguing with you people a long time ago....Never does any good. So I think its sick and will stick with that, nothing I can say will make any of you agree with me anyway.
Yeah.. If they're unwilling to listen why should you?

I am not a conservative. If you think I attack, read Baguetten's posts, thats all he does. :rolleyes:

Not in this topic.

Of course I gave up arguing with you people a long time ago....Never does any good. So I think its sick and will stick with that, nothing I can say will make any of you agree with me anyway.

Sure it could. I have changed my mind plenty of times in my lifetime and am not planning to stop doing that now. I just need more than "I think it is sick" to "flipflop".

Not in this topic.



Sure it could. I have changed my mind plenty of times in my lifetime and am not planning to stop doing that now. I just need more than "I think it is sick" to "flipflop".



I am going off of my past experiences here. That and its 4am and it wasn't even my intent to try and change anybodies minds. It made me laugh that some people want to do this and why they think it will even be legalized, like anybody really cares!


Polygamy....Whats next? Getting hitched to your sofa?:p

Trilby63']Yeah.. If they're unwilling to listen why should you?


And I am not going to..I dont care enough to try. Polygamy is ignored and there are not enough people who do it to make it an issue. Just ignore them, in 50 years they will be an oddity that people are shocked are still around.

If you think I attack, read Baguetten's posts, thats all he does. :rolleyes: I would respond to him if he didn't.

Seconding AM on that.

Of course I gave up arguing with you people a long time ago....Never does any good. So I think its sick and will stick with that, nothing I can say will make any of you agree with me anyway.

Again, agreed w/ AM. If you aren't convincing in your agruments, mayhapse you should examine them more carefully. "It's that way because I say so, and I won't even try and prove my podition" is not the most effective means of arguing your case.

And if your only purpose in posting this is to laugh at "sick" people, you're doing worse than whaqt you accuse Fass of...

And I am not going to..I dont care enough to try. Polygamy is ignored and there are not enough people who do it to make it an issue. Just ignore them, in 50 years they will be an oddity that people are shocked are still around.

Don't be so sure. Life is getting more and more expensive, and the advantages of having a multi-income household will get more and more appealing. Especially since you will no longer need to put the childen in daycare if you can ararnge that one of the "parents" stays at home every day.

Don't be so sure. Life is getting more and more expensive, and the advantages of having a multi-income household will get more and more appealing. Especially since you will no longer need to put the childen in daycare if you can ararnge that one of the "parents" stays at home every day.


Trust me, its fading away. Not many people want multiple wives or husbands. Some don't want any and like the idea of being a single parent.


EDIT: I also think more and more people would rather not have kids and stay single. The costs are just to high for kids.

And if your only purpose in posting this is to laugh at "sick" people, you're doing worse than whaqt you accuse Fass of...

That's the really sad thing about this thread. I purposefully emulated Empress_Suiko's actions in a milder way to show her what she was doing (you'd think the about-face "feel sorry for you" comment would have been obvious - please, like I care enough about ES to actually feel sorry for her), and she didn't appreciate being the butt of such comportment in the least, as expected - nobody does. Yet she cannot grasp the irony in her own actions being worse, in calling people "sick," and laughing at them and judging their families, calling them "brainwashed" and their beliefs "lies."

No, I'm the bad guy here. Her own poop, well, it smells like daisies.

In the future couples will be the oddity. Relationships will involve two women and two men. A man and a woman each for each person. This is a fact.

Trilby63']In the future couples will be the oddity. Relationships will involve two women and two men. A man and a woman each for each person. This is a fact.


On what planet? Mars?

Trust me, its fading away. Not many people want multiple wives or husbands. Some don't want any and like the idea of being a single parent.

EDIT: I also think more and more people would rather not have kids and stay single. The costs are just to high for kids.

Possibly. I am not sure if those trends are actually better or worse for society than polyamory though :(

On what planet? Mars?
Earth, silly..:rolleyes:

Possibly. I am not sure if those trends are actually better or worse for society than polyamory though :(



Well. In these polygamy cases it seems it may be for money more than love. Can you imgaine how most it would cost to raise a family of 15 kids and 5 wives? GOD! It may be cheaper to be single.

These brainwashed kids really believe the way to salvation is thru polygamy..That is a lie! They are living a lie.
So if they were instead brainwashed to believe the way to salvation is through monogamy, you'd feel more comfortable with it? I see. :rolleyes:

What does salvation have to do with the size of your family, anyway?

Care to explain?

Trilby63']Earth, silly..:rolleyes:

Yeah right. Made up facts are so funny.:)

Well. In these polygamy cases it seems it may be for money more than love. Can you imgaine how most it would cost to raise a family of 15 kids and 5 wives? GOD! It may be cheaper to be single.
It would be less expensive than five families with five kids each.

Trilby63']It would be less expensive than five families with five kids each.


How do you figure that? Seems it should be the same..

Well. In these polygamy cases it seems it may be for money more than love. Can you imgaine how most it would cost to raise a family of 15 kids and 5 wives? GOD! It may be cheaper to be single.

Depends if the wives also work of course, and how many husbands there are.

Depends if the wives also work of course, and how many husbands there are.


Still cost to much. The costs of food clothing and housing would eat up all your money. Its just cheaper to either stay single or have 1 kid.

Yeah right. Made up facts are so funny.:)
Made up? I'll remember that when I take time off from my wild and adventurous sex life to mock you..

Trilby63']Made up? I'll remember that when I take time off from my wild and adventurous sex life to mock you..


http://forums.site5.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif

she cannot grasp the irony
For people like ES, the term, "irony" is an adjective instead of a noun. Something to do with straightening shirt-collars.

For people like ES, the term, "irony" is an adjective instead of a noun. Something to do with straightening shirt-collars.

LOL Now that's worthy of the ROFL smilie. :cool:

LOL Now that's worthy of the ROFL smilie. :cool:



This is why I resent Liberals. Flamebait. Flamebait above all else.

That's the really sad thing about this thread. I purposefully emulated Empress_Suiko's actions in a milder way to show her what she was doing (you'd think the about-face "feel sorry for you" comment would have been obvious - please, like I care enough about ES to actually feel sorry for her), and she didn't appreciate being the butt of such comportment in the least, as expected - nobody does. Yet she cannot grasp the irony in her own actions being worse, in calling people "sick," and laughing at them and judging their families, calling them "brainwashed" and their beliefs "lies."

No, I'm the bad guy here. Her own poop, well, it smells like daisies.

And the whole "make an outrageous claim and run away from/ignore those who question it" thing smacks of childishness.

And ES is convinced that it's other people's not being willing to listen that brings her arguiment to mootness....

This is why I resent Liberals. Flamebait. Flamebait above all else.
Shh dear, you resent me for my wit.

And the whole "make an outrageous claim and run away from/ignore those who question it" thing smacks of childishness.

And ES is convinced that it's other people's not being willing to listen that brings her arguiment to mootness....


Flame me, you have nothing better to do?:upyours:

This is why I resent Liberals. Flamebait. Flamebait above all else.

:rolleyes:

And oh what a lovely attack of your own - ooohhhh! it's the "L" word! I love it when people completely ignore reality...

Flame me, you have nothing better to do?:upyours:
"**** the **** off you cunting ****" would be flaming.. you know?

Trilby63']"**** the **** off you cunting ****" would be flaming
No, that'd be 'cunting', near as I can make it.

Flame me, you have nothing better to do?:upyours:

Err... since when is it flaming to pointb out what you're doing. You made an outrageous claim, people questioned it, and you ran away from defending it ("I gave up arguing") or ignored those questioning you.

The only flame I see here is your egregious use of the above smilie....

No, that'd be 'cunting', near as I can make it.
Make like a **** and ****?

You're a ****** to.
Whigger.. I'm white.

Indeed.

Careful all who've continued posting. The mods have been extremely strict of late on the principal of "don't make train wrecks worse"...

Careful all who've continued posting. The mods have been extremely strict of late on the principal of "don't make train wrecks worse"...
Aww.. but we hardly did anything..

Trilby63']Aww.. but we hardly did anything..

That's what I said when I got an official warning for 1 single spam post.

Ok so the topic here has drifted a bit askew. I believe that the issue at hand is associated with the harms attributed to polygamy.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with it on an individual level. Are there cases of abuse associated with polygamy? Sure there is, are there pedophiles that live polyamerous lifestyles? Of course there are, but these aberrant behaviours are not intrinsically related to polygamy but rather to individual problems among people that live the life style. The core issue that is problematic with polyamerous relationships is unfortunately the number of people involved exacerbates the effect of any negative behaviour experienced. Not only that but because of the greater strength of the family unit it would increase the difficulty associated with extracting the perpetrator who in all likelihood would be the head of the household who would be the father. Furthermore as a polyagomous lifestyle would promote cooperation among large groups and stifle competition it would promote a growing trend towards socialism.

On an individual level I don't see a problem with it, however in the greater context I see it as being ultimately harmful to society.

EddieP
New Texasianna
ManusNigrum
http://www.nationstates.net/new_texasianna
http://www.ghetoo.com/refer.php?ref=2050

Polygamy leads to socialism? How?

Why would a man go polygamous? As if one nagger wasn't enough, the man gets more. Trust me when I say that marraige changes people. It turns otherwise hot women into naggers and men, like me, from hot to not. No wonder people stay single.

Kidding aside, I find that polygamist relationships tend to be bad for the women and children. Why wouldn't it be? The wives have to compete with eachother for love and kids prefer it when they have 2 parental figures, not 1 or 7. I guess if you hate your married lifestyle, create a new religion. Every nutcase does it.

Does polygamy have to mean one dude and two or more women?

Trilby63']Does polygamy have to mean one dude and two or more women?
Well, two dudes and a woman is polyandry.

Well, two dudes and a woman is polyandry.
Oh.. righto..

and kids prefer it when they have 2 parental figures, not 1 or 7.

I doubt that. Most children in traditional rural/farmer families where multiple generations share the home are quite happy with the attention provided by uncle and grandpa (and no, get your mind out of the gutter !).

Not to mention that in a household consisting of multiple women there will probably also be more playmates.

Well, two dudes and a woman is polyandry.
And that's sacreligious and should be illegal.

Well, two dudes and a woman is polyandry.

For completeness:
One man, multiple women = polygyny
One woman, multiple men = polyandry
Multiple men and women = group marriage, or just keep calling it polygamy.

For completeness:
One man, multiple women = polygyny
One woman, multiple men = polyandry
Multiple men and women = group marriage, or just keep calling it polygamy.
Actually, that's referred to as "polyamory".

Actually, that's referred to as "polyamory".

No, all of these fall under polyamory - which just means loving multiple people at the same time without reference to marriage.
Odd actually that they never made better definitions.

Are you kidding me? :rolleyes:


These brainwashed kids really believe the way to salvation is thru polygamy..That is a lie! They are living a lie.

1) Give me one objective reason why polygamy is wrong.

2) You assume they are brainwashed. Why? The one girl even said she has siblings who are not poltgamists.

http://forums.site5.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif

That's not a responce.

This is why I resent Liberals. Flamebait. Flamebait above all else.

OK, I'm not a liberal, and I think you're wrong. I am willing to have a constructive debate with you and listen to what you say. Please respond to the 2 point I made above.

OK, I'm not a liberal, and I think you're wrong. I am willing to have a constructive debate with you and listen to what you say. Please respond to the 2 point I made above.

Considering the empress has just gone on an insult spree writing "fuck you niggers" all over this board, I do not think she will be able to respond. Pity.

Considering the empress has just gone on an insult spree writing "fuck you niggers" all over this board, I do not think she will be able to respond. Pity.

Yea, I just went back and read the last page. Well, saw all the deleted posts and figured what had happened.


Kidding aside, I find that polygamist relationships tend to be bad for the women and children. Why wouldn't it be? The wives have to compete with eachother for love and kids prefer it when they have 2 parental figures, not 1 or 7. I guess if you hate your married lifestyle, create a new religion. Every nutcase does it.

This is a completly unsupstatiated claim. You just made it up based on what you think would happen. It doesn't count as a good reason to ban polygamy.

First off, your claim has no merit. But just pretending for a second that it does. It's still not a reason to ban it. Concenting adults can inconvince themselves or enter into a bad relationship all they want. It's called the right to do what you want with your own life. To have any ground to stand on, you would have to prove (not speculate) that polygamy is so harmful to children involved that it constitutes a form of child abuse. Judging from the rally, this is not the case.

it is not so much the multiple wives i have a problem with, but the way they marry off very young girls, some who have barely even touched puberty, to very old guys.

and they do it because a "prophet" says so

it is not so much the multiple wives i have a problem with, but the way they marry off very young girls, some who have barely even touched puberty, to very old guys.

and they do it because a "prophet" says so

We're not talking about all practices of "fundimentalist Mormons" here, nor are we talking about polygamy in a Mormon or religious context. We are talking only about the practice of polygamy it's self.

Are you kidding me? :rolleyes:


These brainwashed kids really believe the way to salvation is thru polygamy..That is a lie! They are living a lie.

The only way for salvation is through Jesus Christ, not a church, not through having 4 wives and xxxxx number of children, or screaming hate at homosexuals, military, or people you don't like, or blowing yourself up in crowds of people.

The only way for salvation is through Jesus Christ, not a church, not through having 4 wives and xxxxx number of children, or screaming hate at homosexuals, military, or people you don't like, or blowing yourself up in crowds of people.
That depends what you're being saved from. If it's from drowning then the only way to salvation is to swim to the surface, though Jesus might be up there walking his dog.

Sure, why not? One girl I know lived quite a while in a relationship with a guy and another girl. If they had decided to start a family together, I don't see how it could have been anyone else's business to tell them they can't do that. Consenting adults, etc.

The only way for salvation is through Jesus Christ, not a church, not through having 4 wives and xxxxx number of children, or screaming hate at homosexuals, military, or people you don't like, or blowing yourself up in crowds of people.
I can say the only way to salvation is through eating alot of prunes and worshipping Mr T, but what makes who right.

*ignoring the flames*

i agree with empress suiko, its sad to see these teens rallying to support a lifestyle that is very soon going to turn out badly for them.

y'all react as if a 21 year old man is going to marry 2 or 3 20 year old women.

nooooooo, very soon the girls will be married off to men as old as their (probably very old) fathers. men who already have a wife or 2 (or 10), they will be pregnant every year, unable to work, never having finished highschool. they will never be legally married to their husbands. they will be living on as much welfare as the community can suck out of the system. they will have nothing of their own but their children who will tie them into polygamy even if they desire something else. they will know little or nothing of the greater world. they have no option but to be brood mare for the community.

as for the boys...

no dating is allowed. obviously no sex is allowed. all the girls are married off well before they turn 18 and not to 18 year old boys. unless a boy is the son of the communities "prophet" he has no chance to be married (and thus ever have sex) until one of the old men dies and frees up a dozen or so women into the adult marriage pool. he may be able to convince a young wife to have an affair wiht him, the risks are enormous. his best chance at a good life is to leave the community that he so ardently supports which will now most likely ban him from ever seeing his family members again.

We're not talking about all practices of "fundimentalist Mormons" here, nor are we talking about polygamy in a Mormon or religious context. We are talking only about the practice of polygamy it's self.
how do you figure that? wasnt the OP about utah teens supporting their polygamous families?

why go with theory when there is example all over southern utah today? who cares what MIGHT be true for some "enlightened" people when we can use the example of the majority of polygamists in the US today?

*ignoring the flames*

i agree with empress suiko, its sad to see these teens rallying to support a lifestyle that is very soon going to turn out badly for them.

y'all react as if a 21 year old man is going to marry 2 or 3 20 year old women.

nooooooo, very soon the girls will be married off to men as old as their (probably very old) fathers. men who already have a wife or 2 (or 10), they will be pregnant every year, unable to work, never having finished highschool. they will never be legally married to their husbands. they will be living on as much welfare as the community can suck out of the system. they will have nothing of their own but their children who will tie them into polygamy even if they desire something else. they will know little or nothing of the greater world. they have no option but to be brood mare for the community.

as for the boys...

no dating is allowed. obviously no sex is allowed. all the girls are married off well before they turn 18 and not to 18 year old boys. unless a boy is the son of the communities "prophet" he has no chance to be married (and thus ever have sex) until one of the old men dies and frees up a dozen or so women into the adult marriage pool. he may be able to convince a young wife to have an affair wiht him, the risks are enormous. his best chance at a good life is to leave the community that he so ardently supports which will now most likely ban him from ever seeing his family members again.

So when did you escape from your polygamous family and get de-programmed? Surely you must have had one to know so much about them.

*ignoring the flames*

i agree with empress suiko, its sad to see these teens rallying to support a lifestyle that is very soon going to turn out badly for them.

y'all react as if a 21 year old man is going to marry 2 or 3 20 year old women.

nooooooo, very soon the girls will be married off to men as old as their (probably very old) fathers. men who already have a wife or 2 (or 10), they will be pregnant every year, unable to work, never having finished highschool. they will never be legally married to their husbands. they will be living on as much welfare as the community can suck out of the system. they will have nothing of their own but their children who will tie them into polygamy even if they desire something else. they will know little or nothing of the greater world. they have no option but to be brood mare for the community.

as for the boys...

no dating is allowed. obviously no sex is allowed. all the girls are married off well before they turn 18 and not to 18 year old boys. unless a boy is the son of the communities "prophet" he has no chance to be married (and thus ever have sex) until one of the old men dies and frees up a dozen or so women into the adult marriage pool. he may be able to convince a young wife to have an affair wiht him, the risks are enormous. his best chance at a good life is to leave the community that he so ardently supports which will now most likely ban him from ever seeing his family members again.

Substantiate your claims, or they will be disregarded.

Keep in mind we are talking about the practice of polygamy in general, not a specific minority of "fundimental Mormons".

how do you figure that? wasnt the OP about utah teens supporting their polygamous families?

why go with theory when there is example all over southern utah today? who cares what MIGHT be true for some "enlightened" people when we can use the example of the majority of polygamists in the US today?

Because the article stated that not all of the rallying teens were from Mormon families. I assumed we were talking about the article.

Substantiate your claims, or they will be disregarded.

Keep in mind we are talking about the practice of polygamy in general, not a specific minority of "fundimental Mormons".
oh have you provided substantiation for your theories on how non-mormon polygamists live?

people have all sorts of freaky living arrangements. if they manage to live a stable life and pay attention to the needs of their children, it doesnt much matter. if their children are fully aware of their options in life and are fully supported by their parents in achieving the life they choose, it doesnt much matter.

keep in mind the OP and the title of the thread.

I am going off of my past experiences here. That and its 4am and it wasn't even my intent to try and change anybodies minds. It made me laugh that some people want to do this and why they think it will even be legalized, like anybody really cares!


Polygamy....Whats next? Getting hitched to your sofa?:p

I'm not seeing any equivilance there. Do you feel the same about gay marriage?

oh have you provided substantiation for your theories on how non-mormon polygamists live?

people have all sorts of freaky living arrangements. if they manage to live a stable life and pay attention to the needs of their children, it doesnt much matter. if their children are fully aware of their options in life and are fully supported by their parents in achieving the life they choose, it doesnt much matter.

keep in mind the OP and the title of the thread.

I never made any claims about the live of polygamists. To declare something is wrong, you must prove the harm it does an unwill participent. Thus far, all of your points have applied to a specific sect, and have more to do with that sect then with polygamy in general.

The rally was about defending polygamy in general, and the teens didn't seem especially tramatized or scared by their living arangement.

It's just as much of a lie as "God only wants monogamy". Who are you do dictate what these people believe or don't believe? And what exactly is wrong with polygamy (as long as all members are consenting adults)?
My main issue with polygamy is quite simple. The jocks would get even more of the girls :P

Mormon polygamy is not about love. The wives, most of whom are much younger than the one husband, are little more than slaves.

Other forms of polygamy, based around mutual respect and love, are fine.

Are you kidding me? :rolleyes:


These brainwashed kids really believe the way to salvation is thru polygamy..That is a lie! They are living a lie.

How does that lie differ from the hundreds of other lies that billions of other people live? Because it's an 'icky' lie?

I am rather appalled with the sheer level of prejudice and idiocy that some people spew about polygamy and polyamorus relationships.

Some people come up with all sorts of assertions about how wrong or ‘sick’ it is, that it somehow causes harm to people, and that anyone who is in one must be brainwashed because no sane consenting adult would possibly think anything other than one man and one woman was acceptable. I believe it is those very people yelling about how much it ‘harms’ people are the brainwashed ones.

Making the assumption that any polygamous relationship must be an old man with a bunch of young wives who were forced into marriage is horrifically prejudiced – it would be like saying all Catholics would torture and mutilate Jews given half a chance. How about we ban all marriages to blue-collar workers? After all, if a woman were to marry a working class man it must be against her will or have been brainwashed into it because obviously he is going to be abusive and beat her all the time.

There are better arguments for banning marriage altogether than could be made for specifically banning polyamorous relationships. The only way to force relationships to be monogamous heterosexual marriages is to enforce religious doctrine. Aside from religion, how can you say that heterosexual monogamous relationships are the only non-harmful relationship? If one man and one woman getting married is good, why not two men and two women?

To those who think polyamory should be banned, should we ban all extended families as well? Is it wrong and harmful to the children to have an aunt or uncle living with them? How about old friends? The whole concept of the nuclear family is very recent, and is no more or less harmful than any other family structure.

Gays aren't even allowed monogamy but it's okay to have more than one spouse if you're straight?

Big Love is just a show, and I'd be surprised if these kids weren't all part of Warren Jeffs' sick little Branch Davidian Part Deux.

I don't see the funny. These kids should be lauded.
I agree with you about this. People should be free to marry who and how they choose. There should be no bans other than to insure any and all parties are of legal age.

It's just a consensual relationship that initiates neither force nor fraud, and as such the government should not prevent it, but rather allow freedom of contract- let them do what they will. If you want to have multiple husbands and wives, go right ahead, you're not bugging me. Now, I don't think the Mormon church should be forced to go back to the old ways, since doing so would be a violation of freedom of contract and association, but if they want a legal partnership, they should be able to get it.

Much as I disagree with the mormon faith people should have the right to marry as they please providing, as has been stated before but cannot be enforced enough, all parties are consenting adults.

What we have now is freedom to what far too many people seem to want is freedom from.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209474,00.html





http://forums.site5.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif http://forums.site5.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif http://forums.site5.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif

Sorry, I just can't help it.
There are many abuse victims who defend, or even protect, their abusers. It is horrible and tragic to see it happen, but it does.

It's just a consensual relationship that initiates neither force nor fraud, and as such the government should not prevent it, but rather allow freedom of contract- let them do what they will. If you want to have multiple husbands and wives, go right ahead, you're not bugging me. Now, I don't think the Mormon church should be forced to go back to the old ways, since doing so would be a violation of freedom of contract and association, but if they want a legal partnership, they should be able to get it.
Here's the difference:

In the current "polygamous" religious groups, women are not permitted to have multiple husbands. Indeed, most women aren't even allowed to choose the one husband they have. Instead, they are sold into marriage, usually while still a minor, to a man who has been selected by their father or their religious leader. Girls are often sold into marriage before puberty.

Meanwhile, young boys are abandoned like garbage by the side of the road. See, they don't want teenage girls to be able to get with teenage boys, because then all the 45 year old men would have to actually date women their own age. So they get rid of the young men. They literally throw them out on the street.

I don't care if consenting adults wish to have plural marriages. What I care about is the crazy-ass religious nutters who believe God grants them the right to rape little girls. I care about disgusting sub-human males who throw out their own kids, and expect the rest of the world to deal with their problem.

I have a problem with rapists and child abusers hiding behind claims of "freedom of choice" and "freedom of religion." And I really, really have a problem with people who try to pretend like the system used by these Mormons has anything to do with consenting adults choosing who they wed. This system is all about a select group getting to abuse and exploit whomever they want, and then hiding behind religion because they are too cowardly to simply admit that they are rapists.

A bit unrelated but..

Monogamy is a tax.

The concept of monogamy came out in ancient greece, a time when women were legally considered property (along with slaves).

By dictating that each man could only have one asset of that property, and since there is a woman for each man, basically what you have is monogamy as an equalizing tax: You tax rich men that could otherwise sustain several women, and give them to the poor.

Its not a religious question. Its a tax question. That simple.

A bit unrelated but..

Monogamy is a tax.

The concept of monogamy came out in ancient greece, a time when women were legally considered property (along with slaves).

By dictating that each man could only have one asset of that property, and since there is a woman for each man, basically what you have is monogamy as an equalizing tax: You tax rich men that could otherwise sustain several women, and give them to the poor.

Its not a religious question. Its a tax question. That simple.
In cultures where women are property, perhaps that is true. In cultures where women are human beings, not so much.

Here's the difference:

In the current "polygamous" religious groups, women are not permitted to have multiple husbands.
Well, that's because polygamy is the act of one man marrying multiple wives.

Well, that's because polygamy is the act of one man marrying multiple wives.
I was refering to the post I quoted, in which "polygamy" was assumed to include "multiple husbands and wives." That's why I put "polygamy" in quotation marks; the poster seemed to think that the thread-topic included consenting adults who choose to have multiple husbands, when (as you point out) it does not.

Sorry for the confusion. :)

In cultures where women are property, perhaps that is true. In cultures where women are human beings, not so much.

in all past cultures, women were at a time considered property

in all past cultures, women were at a time considered property
Absolutely. But this thread is dealing about the existence of polygamy right now, in a country where women are not property. Monogamy cannot be fairly judged to be a "tax," because women are free to choose which man (if any) they wish to be with. Women are not "taken" from rich men and "given" to poor men by monogamy. Women will quite often reject wealthier suitors in favor of poorer suitors. Women will often bring more money in than their male partners, in fact. A significant portion of women are not in any way supported by a male lover, yet are still monogamous.

And, of course, your example totally collapses across all of history when you realize that homosexual monogamy has always existed. Monogamy in general was never the "tax" you describe, since there were plenty of monogamous couples that didn't include a woman or didn't include a man.

And, of course, your example totally collapses across all of history when you realize that homosexual monogamy has always existed. Monogamy in general was never the "tax" you describe, since there were plenty of monogamous couples that didn't include a woman or didn't include a man.

Yhose being exception and not the rule. The principle stands that women were property in Ancient Greece, Persia, and most Pre-Roman Civilizations and the inforcement of monogamy rules was in essence, a tax.

For what ? They believe in the spreading of love. Is that so horrible ?

Well, most my ex-girlfriends seem to think so. But if it is, then I don't know why that's how all the pornos end.

I was refering to the post I quoted, in which "polygamy" was assumed to include "multiple husbands and wives." That's why I put "polygamy" in quotation marks; the poster seemed to think that the thread-topic included consenting adults who choose to have multiple husbands, when (as you point out) it does not.

Sorry for the confusion. :)

Well, the gender-neutral term for multiple partner marriages is "polyamorous."

Multiple husbands is "polyandrous," however it is usually less accurate to describe these relationships as one woman with multiple husbands as several men sharing one wife as the situation in which it almost always occurs is one in which men live in economically limited areas where there isn't space for men to establish new homes. So several brothers grow up in their fathers house, father dies, and the brothers have no place to go to. They also have no room for a wife each. So they'll all chip in for one that they share.

Considering the empress has just gone on an insult spree writing "fuck you niggers" all over this board, I do not think she will be able to respond. Pity.

One must remember what conservatives consider to be "flamebait."

Take a look at what Bill O'Reilly calls "smearmongering." Taping him talking and then playing back what he says. In truth, the most insulting thing you can say about Bill O'Reilly is "look at what you said."

By the same token, actually throwing around racial slurs is not inflammatory to a conservative. What is inflammatory is pointing out how bad their ideas are.

Mormon polygamy is not about love. The wives, most of whom are much younger than the one husband, are little more than slaves.

Other forms of polygamy, based around mutual respect and love, are fine.

The Mormon church no longer practices polygamy.

Origonally, it was a matter of practicality. The Mormons were an opressed and persecuted religious group, who travel great distances to avoid violence and intolerence. They were small, and constantly under legal or physical attack. The practice of polygamy was intended to shore up their numbers, and make sure that there was a next generation, so the community did not just die out. Long ago, the practice was abandoned, and now you will be excomunicated by the Mormon church for having multiple spouses.

The Catholic Church use to burn Jews at the stake. Now, it is against church law to kill anyone, Jews included. If someone goes around killing Jews in the name of the Catholic church, it doesn't mean that Catholics are Jew-killers or evil. So let's please lay off the "Mormons are rapists and child molesters!"

I'm not denying that there are rapists and child molesters who hide behind the Mormon faith, but that does not make the Mormon faith, or polygamy, evil, and is CERTAINLY no reason to ban any sort of non-traditional marital arangement between CONCENTING ADULTS.

Much as I disagree with the mormon faith people should have the right to marry as they please providing, as has been stated before but cannot be enforced enough, all parties are consenting adults.

Polygamy is not a part of the Mormon faith.

...
And, of course, your example totally collapses across all of history when you realize that homosexual monogamy has always existed. Monogamy in general was never the "tax" you describe, since there were plenty of monogamous couples that didn't include a woman or didn't include a man.

As a student of history, and not a particular partisan of either side of this debate, perhaps you would like to substantiate that claim I quoted above?

Fundamentalists split with the Mormon church in the 19th century and continue to believe plural marriage is the key to eternal salvation.


Well, that's not something I've heard before..

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209474,00.html





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Sorry, I just can't help it.
Lesse...polygomy...hurts no one--well, it offends some people, but no one has a right to not be offended, so that doesn't count--makes people happy...I am in full support of it.

Lesse...polygomy...hurts no one--well, it offends some people, but no one has a right to not be offended, so that doesn't count--makes people happy...I am in full support of it.

Problem is, there are very few egalitarian polygamy if any where women can claim multiple husbands in addition to men claiming multiple wives. In addition certain instances of polygamy are nothing short of abusive. The biggest instance of this is with The "Fundamentalist" Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter-Day Saints, a cult split off from the Mormons lead by Warren Jeffs that has established frightening control of a small cult town or two as well as a Davidian style compound in Texas. Females living in that oppressive environment are forbidden to have formal education and very young girls are often handed off to significantly older men to serve as brides and babymakers. Basically it's a Mormon-flavored Taliban.