NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey, I'm making a list of important communist/socialist/marxist, etc and I need help.

So far I have Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, and El Che.

These are the big daddies I can remember, if you know any others I would appreciate knowing.

Pierre Culliford.

Pierre Culliford.

The guy that created the Smurfs isnt an important leader/activist (theres no mention of even his political views on wiki).

The guy that created the Smurfs isnt an important leader/activist (theres no mention of even his political views on wiki).
You didn't know who he was til you Wikied it, didn't you? :D

You didn't know who he was til you Wikied it, didn't you? :D

Which means hes not that important of a guy then, because I've been searching the web and can't find anyone I that can live-up to the guys I've already found.

Ho Chi Minh, perhaps?

Don't forget Josip Tito!

Ho Chi Minh, perhaps?
Beat me to the punch. Uncle Ho ftw.

Ho Chi Minh, perhaps?

I did find him, but wasnt sure if I should add him.

I did find him, but wasnt sure if I should add him.
Seems to me that any discussion of communism in the second half of the 20th century has to include him. The Vietnam War, after all, was supposedly about fighting communism, and Ho Chi Minh came out of it pretty much victorious.

Hey, I'm making a list of important communist/socialist/marxist, etc and I need help.

So far I have Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, and El Che.

These are the big daddies I can remember, if you know any others I would appreciate knowing.

Important in terms of the development of the initial political/economic cult, excuse me, "philosophy" or important in terms of political activism and ruining, uh, running a nation? o_O

For the former try such pre-Marx Marxists as Rousseau, Abbe Mabley, Caius Graachus and Buonarroti for a start. Stalin would be an example of the latter.

Oh ya, I forgot to mention, I'm not going to add Stalin because I dont like him :D

Sacco and Vanzetti, American labour leaders.

Sacco and Vanzetti, American labour leaders.
If socialist is part of the discussion, then Eugene Debs has to be part of the conversation as well.

If socialist is part of the discussion, then Eugene Debs has to be part of the conversation as well.
Right on, Bro!

define important

I just thought of someone. I added El Che because he was a popular activist that helped spread the word of socialism. So I got to thinking, who else was a powerful protester that changed the world..... GANDHI!!!!!!! Hes a very well known socialist.

Oh ya, I forgot to mention, I'm not going to add Stalin because I dont like him :D

Ah! So this is a *subjective* project eh?

How very leftist. ;)

BTW, I should probably note that the Caius Gracchus I mentioned was not the Roman who made the name famous but rather a French dimwit who, according to Mosca, tried to gather a bunch of equally dimwitted fellow Jacobins who thought they could use the socialist idea of their time to revive the French Revolution into a "Conspiracy of Equals" and according to my notes his actual name was Babeuf. He ended on the guillotine in 1797. So that would actually put the poor boob into the "activist" column.

Sacco and Vanzetti, American labour leaders.

i don't know that you could call them labor leaders exactly

Howsabout Leon Trotsky?

Howsabout Leon Trotsky?

Already on.

I need to sleep. Can't even remember who was on what list...

define important

Those that have changed the world, either as a leader, activist, or founder (of a group), etc.

I just thought of someone. I added El Che because he was a popular activist that helped spread the word of socialism. So I got to thinking, who else was a powerful protester that changed the world..... GANDHI!!!!!!! Hes a very well known socialist.

No, he's not. He's merely somebody the socialists *wish* had been one of them. Hitler and Mussolini both have a better claim to that title than Gandhi does. :rolleyes:

I have added Ho Chi Minh to the list.

If socialist is part of the discussion, then Eugene Debs has to be part of the conversation as well.

Very interesting, I've been looking for someone from the West and he may qualify. Let me read up on him.

I have added Ho Chi Minh to the list.



Very interesting, I've been looking for someone from the West and he may qualify. Let me read up on him.
And Sacco and Vanzetti?

Those that have changed the world, either as a leader, activist, or founder (of a group), etc.

In that case Stalin has a better claim to important than most of those you had already named.

No, he's not. He's merely somebody the socialists *wish* had been one of them. Hitler and Mussolini both have a better claim to that title than Gandhi does. :rolleyes:

"Gandhi has also been criticized by anti-communists for referring to Vladimir Lenin as a "titan in spirit" and for generally supporting the cause of the Soviet Union."

Close enough for me :p

Commie Catholics.

I've decided to suppress my anger and just put Stalin on my list. It really wouldn't be complete without him. :rolleyes:

And Sacco and Vanzetti?

They didn't really effect the world.....

Maybe you should add Gorbachev. He affected the world in a very different way from most of the others, but he's still an important Commie as Commies go.

Here's another name for you: Bernie Sanders, long time Representative from Vermont, and likely to be the next Senator from Vermont. He doesn't have an S for Socialist next to his name, but he's a legitimate independent, and openly admits socialist leanings, which is quite unusual in the US.

They didn't really effect the world.....
"On April 9, 1927, after all recourse in the Massachusetts courts had failed, Sacco and Vanzetti were sentenced to death. By then the dignity and the words of the two men had turned them into powerful symbols of social justice for many throughout the world. "
From this (http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/sacvan.html) article.

Maybe you should add Gorbachev. He affected the world in a very different way from most of the others, but he's still an important Commie as Commies go.
Seconded!

Иосиф Виссарионович Джугашвили - Josef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili - Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin

Nikita Khrushchev. Major Cold War player, perhaps most responsible for the Space Race as much as the Arms Race. The US owes its dominance in space to him.

Closer to home, you must mention the International Workers of the World (IWW or "Wobblies"). The only fairly well-known national historical even to happen in my hometown of Everett, WA was the Everett Massacre.

Among the IWW founders were William D. ("Big Bill") Haywood of the Western Federation of Miners, Daniel DeLeon of the Socialist Labor Party, and Eugene V. Debs (already mentioned here).

Commie enough?

You could do some current ones too, besides Castro. Who's the guy in Venezuela right now, forgot his name.

Oh, and Cardenas in Mexico.

They didn't really effect the world.....

other than being one of the earliest examples of worldwide mass protests to attempt to free political prisoners, which has since become a rather common tactic.

Maybe you should add Gorbachev. He affected the world in a very different way from most of the others, but he's still an important Commie as Commies go.

Gorbachev had unleashed a force that would ultimately destroy the Soviet Union (unintended I suppose). (After reading that, I didnt feel much like reading on.

You could do some current ones too, besides Castro. Who's the guy in Venezuela right now, forgot his name.

Oh, and Cardenas in Mexico.
Hugo Chavez.

Nikita Khrushchev. Major Cold War player, perhaps most responsible for the Space Race as much as the Arms Race. The US owes its dominance in space to him.

Closer to home, you must mention the International Workers of the World (IWW or "Wobblies"). The only fairly well-known national historical even to happen in my hometown of Everett, WA was the Everett Massacre.

Among the IWW founders were William D. ("Big Bill") Haywood of the Western Federation of Miners, Daniel DeLeon of the Socialist Labor Party, and Eugene V. Debs (already mentioned here).

Commie enough?

Im going to add Debs. I'll look into the others in a bit.

"On April 9, 1927, after all recourse in the Massachusetts courts had failed, Sacco and Vanzetti were sentenced to death. By then the dignity and the words of the two men had turned them into powerful symbols of social justice for many throughout the world. "
From this (http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/sacvan.html) article.
Vanzetti's the one who got the short end of the stick. Sacco was, by most reliable, repeatable evidence, quite guilty. Vanzetti, on the other hand, was probably innocent.

Hugo Chavez.

yeah, that's the cat

He's important, turning the tables on Latin America's shock therapy fad.

Vanzetti's the one who got the short end of the stick. Sacco was, by most reliable, repeatable evidence, quite guilty. Vanzetti, on the other hand, was probably innocent.

though on the basis of the evidence presented at the trial, sacco got the shaft too. he may have really been involved, but the state had nothing to demonstrate that at all. he was, however, clearly guilty of being an italian of anarchist persuasion.

back to the subject at hand:
proudhon and kropotkin

back to the subject at hand:
proudhon and kropotkin

Proudhon looks promising, and Kropotkin....might not make the cut.

I just realised that all the people on my list so-far are dead except Castro.

Proudhon looks promising, and Kropotkin....might not make the cut.

proudhon is more than promising, trust me.

kropotkin has got both a city and a volcano named after him

I just realised that all the people on my list so-far are dead except Castro.

Add Chavez then.

proudhon is more than promising, trust me.

kropotkin has got both a city and a volcano named after him

I'll decide tomorrow. Along with all the other submitted names I havn't gotten to.

Im going to bed, I'll tell you what my decision on those I havnt answered too are tomorrow. Thanks for all the help. If you think of any others, dont be shy. :D

Add Chavez then.

Then Castro wont be special. :p

define important

Yeah. And are we sticking to Marxists only (i'd assume not, judging from the first post, but eh)?

If so, Karl Leibknecht and Rosa Luxemburg. If not, i'll throw in Emma Goldman and Bakunin.

Yeah. And are we sticking to Marxists only (i'd assume not, judging from the first post, but eh)?

If so, Karl Leibknecht and Rosa Luxemburg. If not, i'll throw in Emma Goldman and Bakunin.

Are the last two really communist/socialist as opposed to just generically anarchist?

Are the last two really communist/socialist as opposed to just generically anarchist?

yes

Are the last two really communist/socialist as opposed to just generically anarchist?

What is your interpretation of "generically anarchist"?

How can you forget MAO!?

Hey, I'm making a list of important communist/socialist/marxist, etc and I need help.

So far I have Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, and El Che.

These are the big daddies I can remember, if you know any others I would appreciate knowing.

He's on the initial list. That would be a pretty big screw-up otherwise.

What is your interpretation of "generically anarchist"?

Not really involved with either redistribution of stuff, or with markets figuring stuff out, or with whatever anarcho-syndicalists care about, but just opposed to government in general.

Jesus.

Not really involved with either redistribution of stuff, or with markets figuring stuff out, or with whatever anarcho-syndicalists care about, but just opposed to government in general.

Then no, they certainly don't fit that mould.

Jesus.
I think it's been shown pretty thoroughly that he's not a communist.

I think it's been shown pretty thoroughly that he's not a communist.

Some of his disciples after his death were pretty close, though, at least in how they behaved together.

Fanya "Dora" Kaplan (tried to assassinate Lenin)
Elizabeth Gurley-Flynn (co-founded both the IWW and the ACLU, later kicked out of the latter for being a communist)
Upton Sinclair (American novelist)
Noam Chomsky
Howard Zinn

Noam Chomsky


Ehh, he is an anarchist. He even wrote a book about anarchism.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1904859208/002-2030460-2887254?v=glance&n=283155

I think it's been shown pretty thoroughly that he's not a communist.
Really? Anarchist, then? He certainly wasn't free-market . . .

Jesus.


All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Acts 2:44-45)


Now compare that with Marx, the man who wrote the Communist manifesto.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

You're not so sure now.

Antonio Gramsci
Kamenev
Zinoviev
Alexandra Kollontai

Now compare that with Marx, the man who wrote the Communist manifesto.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

You're not so sure now.
I believe the individual in question was Jesus, not the apostles.

I believe the individual in question was Jesus, not the apostles.
He still seems pretty pinko to me . . .

Can you show me a single bit of evidence that he ever supported the regulation of the state in economic matters?
Money changers in the temple?

Really? Anarchist, then? He certainly wasn't free-market . . .
Can you show me a single bit of evidence that he ever supported the regulation of the state in economic matters?

Ehh, he is an anarchist. He even wrote a book about anarchism.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1904859208/002-2030460-2887254?v=glance&n=283155

Well, the OP didn't specify only Marxists....

Money changers in the temple?
That was far from free market, in fact, in that incident he was breaking up blatant fraud. Any free-market capitalist will tell you that fraud is detestable, and equal in rottenness to theft.

That was far from free market, in fact, that incident was blatant fraud.
Blatant fraud is still a part of free-market economics. Caveat emptor.
And Kicking them out was still kinda controlling, neh?

That was far from free market, in fact, in that incident he was breaking up blatant fraud. Any free-market capitalist will tell you that fraud is detestable, and equal in rottenness to theft.

Did Jesus ever criticize the forbiddance of ursury between Jews/believers and money = root of all evil ideas, though?

Blatant fraud is still a part of free-market economics. Caveat emptor.
And Kicking them out was still kinda controlling, neh?
No, blatant fraud is taking people's money be ways that involve deceit, and concealing the truth from them, and thereby denying them their free ability to decide what is best for them.

So after all there is a definition ,like there is for democracy,and other illusion.
wich is always bias,now you can talk "ism",it never will be accurate....
So i will say the only communism is the one who believe we have to worktogether.
Simple.

No, blatant fraud is taking people's money be ways that involve deceit, and concealing the truth from them, and thereby denying them their free ability to decide what is best for them.
Okay, we've gotten way OT. If He isn't a commie, then He's an anarchist?

Okay, we've gotten way OT. If He isn't a commie, then He's an anarchist?
Possibly, his teachings on the matter of Government Authority are few and far between.

Possibly, his teachings on the matter of Government Authority are few and far between.
So, we don't really know His political affiliation (apart from Republican. j/k). So He can't make the list. Back OT, just like that!

Ok, I've quickly skimmed over who you have submitted are and what there part was in the movement. I have narrowed it down to:

Karl Leibknecht
Rosa Luxemburg
Mikhail Bakunin
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
Nikita Khrushchev
Karl Kautsky
Fanya Kaplan
Antonio Gramsci
Lev Kamenev
Grigory Zinoviev
Alexandra Kollontai

Some are better than others, but I couldn't just dismiss them. I don't want to add them all tho. Its a list of the most active, successful, and popular.

Fanya "Dora" Kaplan (tried to assassinate Lenin)
Elizabeth Gurley-Flynn (co-founded both the IWW and the ACLU, later kicked out of the latter for being a communist)
Upton Sinclair (American novelist)
Noam Chomsky
Howard Zinn
You're wrong on Zinn, and shaky on Chomsky, but the others are fine.

You're wrong on Zinn, and shaky on Chomsky, but the others are fine.According to Wikipedia, "Zinn's philosophy incorporates ideas from Marxism, anarchism, socialism, and social democracy."

It is true that Chomsky's views change from time to time, but he has expressed support for anarcho-syndicalism, a form of communism.

Nobody mentioned Pol Pot so far! I think that, on a per capita basis, he managed to kill the most people in the least ammount of time. This has got to count for something, even if only as a "don't try this at home" example.

James Cannon
Tomsky
Rykov

Unless its a guerrantee candidate for the list, no more. I still have the maybe pile of promising people; who on there should make the cut (Like I said before, its a list of the most recognizable people for the movement)

Hey, I'm making a list of important communist/socialist/marxist, etc and I need help.

So far I have Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, and El Che.

These are the big daddies I can remember, if you know any others I would appreciate knowing.

Bukharin
Rykov
Martov
Preobezhensky
Tukachevsky (not strictly a theorist, but he contributed immensely to the civil war)
Stalin

There's Nur Muhammad Taraki. He founded Communist Afghanistan.

Here's another name for you: Bernie Sanders, long time Representative from Vermont, and likely to be the next Senator from Vermont. He doesn't have an S for Socialist next to his name, but he's a legitimate independent, and openly admits socialist leanings, which is quite unusual in the US.

Hillary Clinton would fit that description aside from the Vermont part.

these havent been mentioned

Frank Ryan
Antonio Gramsci
Tony Cliff

Hillary Clinton would fit that description aside from the Vermont part.

and the 'long time representative' part. and the 'socialist' part (open or otherwise). and the 'legitimately independent' part.

Hey, I'm making a list of important communist/socialist/marxist, etc and I need help.

So far I have Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, and El Che.

These are the big daddies I can remember, if you know any others I would appreciate knowing.

i would say that there was never an important communist..as it is a failed theory that just brought death and horror to all that were subjugated to it's bullshit ideals.
it is counter to most human needs and counter to human nature...so therefore,in my mind..it is worthless,and by extension..it's so called theorists.

it is no different then me falsely proclaiming i have the answer..proved wrong,then deified.

i would say that there was never an important communist..as it is a failed theory that just brought death and horror to all that were subjugated to it's bullshit ideals.
it is counter to most human needs and counter to human nature...so therefore,in my mind..it is worthless,and by extension..it's so called theorists.

it is no different then me falsely proclaiming i have the answer..proved wrong,then deified.

Are you implying that the mentioned communists in no way changed the world?

i would say that there was never an important communist..as it is a failed theory that just brought death and horror to all that were subjugated to it's bullshit ideals.
it is counter to most human needs and counter to human nature...so therefore,in my mind..it is worthless,and by extension..it's so called theorists.

it is no different then me falsely proclaiming i have the answer..proved wrong,then deified.

Next time you have a thought.... let it go.

And it's not a failed theory because it has never truely been implemented; if you keep thinking of the bad, theres no hope for change. Because you politley stated a comment, I'm returning it.

Hey, I'm making a list of important communist/socialist/marxist, etc and I need help.

So far I have Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, and El Che.

These are the big daddies I can remember, if you know any others I would appreciate knowing.

Gus Hall

and my favorite, Stalin

these havent been mentioned

Frank Ryan
Antonio Gramsci
Tony Cliff

Gramsci has and I think I put him in the maybe pile. And I said only submit guerrenteed people.

and my favorite, Stalin

Stalins already in. Read the thread next time so you dont repeat someone.

Gramsci has and I think I put him in the maybe pile. And I said only submit guerrenteed people.
Well, since you're calling the shots, we can hardly tell beforehand who would be guaranteed, now can we? ;)

and the 'long time representative' part. and the 'socialist' part (open or otherwise). and the 'legitimately independent' part.

Hillary Clinton sang the "Internationale" on the Senate floor just yesterday, didn't you hear? Caused quite a furor when she identified herself with the revolutionary struggle of the proletariat and recommended turning over Wal-Mart to worker self-management. When she said that Halliburton should be nationalized and Dick Cheney's wealth redistributed, well, that clinched it: anyone who denies her obvious socialistic tendencies is a crazy liberal blind to reality.

Just because they're Bolshevik revolutionaries, Marxists, etc doesnt mean they are qualified. They have to stand out amongst them all and be recognized all over the world.... and such.

Well, since you're calling the shots, we can hardly tell beforehand who would be guaranteed, now can we? ;)

I've stated repeatedly what makes someone qualified.

They have to stand out amongst them all and be recognized all over the world.... and such.

Eugene Pottier.

Harold Wilson.

Eugene Pottier.

Hes very promising....

I've stated repeatedly what makes someone qualified.
And we've submitted, based on those qualifications. You have disagreed with some of our submissions.

And we've submitted, based on those qualifications. You have disagreed with some of our submissions.

I disagreed because they didnt qualify. Some, you may think why not him, but as I said, I dont want to put every socialist politician in the world; its a short list of the elite.

I disagreed because they didnt qualify. Some, you may think why not him, but as I said, I dont want to put every socialist politician in the world; its a short list of the elite.
Based on your definition of elite, that's all I'm saying ;)

From the Individualist Anarchist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualist_anarchism) school:

Benjamin Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Tucker)
Josiah Warren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah_Warren)
Kevin Carson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carson)

(what with the fame of all the usual statist dictator scum, the individualist free-market anti-capitalists need to be mentioned to help balance things out; if Proudhon qualifies, then these individuals do as well. At any rate, the myth that "socialism" is collectivist or anti-market by definition [or that capitalism is individualist or pro-market by definition...] needs to be struck down.)

(Edit: And, on another note, don't forget Mother Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Jones), famous labor organizer, helped found the IWW.)

if Proudhon qualifies, then these individuals do as well.

proudhon ought to qualify for all sorts of reasons - he was just a huge influence on the entire socialist/communist/communalist/etc-and-whateverist movement

proudhon ought to qualify for all sorts of reasons - he was just a huge influence on the entire socialist/communist/communalist/etc-and-whateverist movement

I agree (I suppose that my intended meaning was something like "these individuals qualify, being ideologically descended from, or related to, Proudhon.)