NationStates Jolt Archive

I'd make a poll, if I cared... But how many of you expected Israel to breach the cease-fire? I didn't. I was sure the Hez had itchy trigger fingers enough to fuck it. Bad me!

If the last month of terrorism engaged in by the Israeli army wasnt enough to convince you they would not honor a cease fire I pity you. Stop watching Fox News.

They did what?
God damn it.

Well, Israel says that Hizbollah broke it first by transferring weapons.

They did what?
God damn it.
Here's the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5267736.stm

I find myself hoping that the Lebanese people have developed the strength of character to refuse to be baited into escalating the conflict, which seems to be what the IDF are looking for right now.

Well, Israel says that Hizbollah broke it first by transferring weapons.


The troops then battled Hezbollah forces for more than two hours before being flown out by helicopter while fighter jets provided cover, the villagers said.
Local people said the Israelis came down from the hills in two jeeps and drove across a cornfield.
Methinks if they were attempting to stop a transfer of weapons (and with accurate intel) an airstrike would have sufficed.

There is speculation locally that the Israelis may have been trying to capture a senior Hezbollah figure who lives in the village.
This would seem more likely given the "commando" tactics used.

If the last month of terrorism engaged in by the Israeli army wasnt enough to convince you they would not honor a cease fire I pity you. Stop watching Fox News.
I have spent a year of my life watching those same exact people doing that same exact shit in 1987, wearing a blue beret in my head. Don't pity me for being ignorant, pity me for doing that. What's Fox News?

Methinks if they were attempting to stop a transfer of weapons (and with accurate intel) an airstrike would have sufficed.


This would seem more likely given the "commando" tactics used.
Maybe, maybe not. In any case, an airstrike would have been much messier and really really really broken any semblance of truce beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Maybe, maybe not.
Guess we'll never know.

In any case, an airstrike would have been much messier and really really really broken any semblance of truce beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't know what's messier. An air stike on a perceived weapons transfer with zero IDF casualties, or a "commando"/troops on the ground insertion operation with 1 IDF member dead and 2 more wounded.

Either one is a breach of the cease fire. I'm actually surprised Hezb'allah hasn't done anything in response....yet. I hope they don't. I really hope they don't.

Guess we'll never know.



I don't know what's messier. An air stike on a perceived weapons transfer with zero IDF casualties, or a "commando"/troops on the ground insertion operation with 1 IDF member dead and 2 more wounded.

Either one is a breach of the cease fire. I'm actually surprised Hezb'allah hasn't done anything in response....yet. I hope they don't. I really hope they don't.
of course Hezb'allah won't do anything. think about it. if the IDF didn't do anything, they would have more weapons and be restocking, Hezb'allah wins.

if the IDF did do something (and they did) the world looks at Isreal as the villian and Hezb'allah wins.

ground insertion operation with 1 IDF member dead and 2 more wounded.

Right! This is new... IDF having casualties all the time. Terrible PR. They didn't use to publish their dead back in the day. Openness is good, I guess...

It didn't surprise me, i figured Israel would try something like this.

Given that Hiz'bo'allah is violating a goodly quantity of UN Resolutions by maintaining it's paramilitary capabilities, it seems like everyone's in the bad here.

I didn't really know at the time whither or not Israel or Hezbollah would break the cease-fire I guess it was kind of inevitable though

goes to show you how such treaties can sometimes not be worth the paper there written on:(

It didn't surprise me, i figured Israel would try something like this. You are a bit surprised. Admit that much.

Well, what do you expect Israel to do when the Lebanese government refuses to do what it agreed to and stop Hezbollah from rearming?

As for an airstrike, Israel used those and you yourself bitched about them being too indiscriminant. You can't have it both ways.

You are a bit surprised. Admit that much.
I am a little. I honestly would have expected Hezb'allah to have done something a few days ago, or been involved in clashes with the Lebanese Army (who are getting a very welcoming reception from the inhabitants of South Lebanon).

Let us hope cooler heads prevail, and sickeningly, that Hezb'allah wins the PR battle by not responding.

As for an airstrike, Israel used those and you yourself bitched about them being too indiscriminant. You can't have it both ways.
"You yourself" isn't me, I hope? You are just being your incoherent self, right..?

Yes Mongooses, Let's hope.

Methinks if they were attempting to stop a transfer of weapons (and with accurate intel) an airstrike would have sufficed.


This would seem more likely given the "commando" tactics used.


Umm, as we have learned before in Vietnam and as the IDF learned later, you can't drive out the hezzies/varmint cong through airstrikes. You can wipe out their bases and staging areas, but you can't completely destroy them. It takes ground forces to do that....

AIr power is good, but not good at doing the job of the army.

And no, it's not a breach of 1701....

They're doing the job the Lebanese should be doing themselves, disarming Hezz, which itself is a violation....

If Hezzbollah *did* respond the IDF might get a chance to finish it once and for all.

Let us hope cooler heads prevail, and sickeningly, that Hezb'allah wins the PR battle by not responding.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If either Hesbollah or the IDF emerge as victors, everyone else loses. We cannot give the impression that we endorse the Lebanese militia, even if they do manage to keep their cool.

As for an airstrike, Israel used those and you yourself bitched about them being too indiscriminant. You can't have it both ways.
OH! I remember now. Sorry mate. Yes. I was a bit sour when you killed the folks in UN OP Khiam. I might have even bitched.

I was wee bit drunk. Sorry.

Umm, as we have learned before in Vietnam and as the IDF learned later, you can't drive out the hezzies/varmint cong through airstrikes. You can wipe out their bases and staging areas, but you can't completely destroy them. It takes ground forces to do that....

...except they weren't trying to "drive them out". The IDF said they were trying to stop a weapons transfer. Surely to stop weapons being loaded from one vehicle to another doesn't require a commando style operation. A missile strike would have sufficed.

Unless, that wasn't the reason they were there... There is speculation locally that the Israelis may have been trying to capture a senior Hezbollah figure who lives in the village.

Oh...

Umm, as we have learned before in Vietnam and as the IDF learned later, you can't drive out the hezzies/varmint cong through airstrikes. You can wipe out their bases and staging areas, but you can't completely destroy them. It takes ground forces to do that....

AIr power is good, but not good at doing the job of the army.

And no, it's not a breach of 1701....

They're doing the job the Lebanese should be doing themselves, disarming Hezz, which itself is a violation....

If Hezzbollah *did* respond the IDF might get a chance to finish it once and for all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we deployed ground troops in Vietnam, yes? And we still weren't able to achieve victory, yes?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If either Hesbollah or the IDF emerge as victors, everyone else loses. We cannot give the impression that we endorse the Lebanese militia, even if they do manage to keep their cool.

And the way it's going now, Israel cannot win.

No surprise at all.

Oh...fuck the lot of them.

*sigh*

*shakes head and walks away*

I am a little. I honestly would have expected Hezb'allah to have done something a few days ago, or been involved in clashes with the Lebanese Army (who are getting a very welcoming reception from the inhabitants of South Lebanon).

Let us hope cooler heads prevail, and sickeningly, that Hezb'allah wins the PR battle by not responding.


:rolleyes:

Oh...fuck the lot of them.

*stops*

110% in agreement.

*moves on*

No surprise at all.
It was SO fucking big surprise to you, that you are still acting cool...
Give it up already.

:rolleyes:
*raises eyebrow*

So, you feel the best thing for the situation would be if Hezb'allah fired rockets into Israel and killed some Israeli citizens instead of not responding?

Nice.

:rolleyes:

Of course, because the British didn't look bad when they were killing a bunch of Indians who didn't fight back.

...except they weren't trying to "drive them out". The IDF said they were trying to stop a weapons transfer. Surely to stop weapons being loaded from one vehicle to another doesn't require a commando style operation. A missile strike would have sufficed.

Unless, that wasn't the reason they were there...

Oh...

They used Airstrikes in the 4 week offensive in some areas when they were supposed to use both ground forces and air strikes. Also a good idea to keep away the Reuters photochoppers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we deployed ground troops in Vietnam, yes? And we still weren't able to achieve victory, yes?

The head general in Vietnam-westmoreland? Used b52arclight carpet bombing runs to kill 'all' the VC in the area. To boot, he didn't send in ground pounders afterwards.

David Hackworth's book About Face had a lot on that. Read the whole thing on a weekend during midterms when I was sure I'd ace everything. Good read.

*raises eyebrow*

So, you feel the best thing for the situation would be if Hezb'allah fired rockets into Israel and killed some Israeli citizens instead of not responding?

Nice.

Who knows what Hezzbollah would do? All I said is that the IDF just needs the greenlight to go after Hezzbollah again, without the redtape. With or without the UN, which we KNOW won't do squat about Hezzbollah.

I'm surpised some on here haven't cried themselves to death over Hezzbollah's plans for Genocide....

Of course, because the British didn't look bad when they were killing a bunch of Indians who didn't fight back.

When did that happen? They accidently bomb a teepee?

late 1600's early 1700's?

I'm surpised some on here haven't cried themselves to death over Hezzbollah's plans for Genocide....
Fear not! I will. Tell me more.

When did that happen? They accidently bomb a teepee?

late 1600's early 1700's?

Apparently, you do not know who Gandhi was.

All I said is that the IDF just needs the greenlight to go after Hezzbollah again, without the redtape.
But.... the IDF had free reign against Hezb'allah for 20 years. Untied hands, no shackles, occupation of Lebanon- call it what you want.

They didn't succeed then, so I don't know what makes you think it could work now.

When did that happen? They accidently bomb a teepee?

late 1600's early 1700's?
Wrong Indians, jackass.

It was SO fucking big surprise to you, that you are still acting cool...
Give it up already.
What? A surprise that the bastard acted as morons and did this? Not at all!

I would have been equally unsurprise if the bastards on the other side had done something similarly moronic, however...

But.... the IDF had free reign against Hezb'allah for 20 years. Untied hands, no shackles, occupation of Lebanon- call it what you want.

They didn't succeed then, so I don't know what makes you think it could work now.
As the thread starter, I must ask you to keep reality out of this thread. If you insist on being sane, I must ask you not to post here. Thank you.

As the thread starter, I must ask you to keep reality out of this thread. If you insist on being sane, I must ask you not to post here. Thank you.
I'm... I'm sorry.
*shakes head*

I don't know what I was thinking. Forgive me. I'm going to have a little lie down.

I'm... I'm sorry.
.That's OK. You and Gravlen both...

Why would you call an air strike on an arms transfer?

I expect the transfer must be mobile, making choosing a target difficult and commandos can ascertain if the intel was reliable.

It might be prudent to find out first if there was reliable intel of an arms transfer and then determine if that intel turned out to be true.
If so, then Israel wasn't the first to breach.

That's OK. You and Gravlen both...
I see... I think... I'm drunk... or... someone is... Hmmm...

Why would you call an air strike on an arms transfer?

I expect the transfer must be mobile, making choosing a target difficult and commandos can ascertain if the intel was reliable.

It might be prudent to find out first if there was reliable intel of an arms transfer and then determine if that intel turned out to be true.
If so, then Israel wasn't the first to breach.
Not to breach the cease-fire... by attacking east Lebanon... ...cos... Fuck it. You tell me what you think a breach of cease-fire is.

I see... I think... I'm drunk... or... someone is... Hmmm...
I know I am, but what are you!?!

I'd make a poll, if I cared... But how many of you expected Israel to breach the cease-fire? I didn't. I was sure the Hez had itchy trigger fingers enough to fuck it. Bad me!
Makes one wonder who the real terrorist are...

Wrong Indians, jackass.

There's more than one Indian....

But.... the IDF had free reign against Hezb'allah for 20 years. Untied hands, no shackles, occupation of Lebanon- call it what you want.

They didn't succeed then, so I don't know what makes you think it could work now.

Beats me why they didn't do it then. Should have done it then instead of now, but now is as good a time as any.

*Shrugs*

There's more than one Indian....
No shit? Huh, I wonder why I said "wrong Indians" when I only think there's one... :rolleyes:

Damn relied to the wrong thread. Damned Tabbed Browsing.

I think it should be pretty clear by now, whether you support them or not, that Israel are warmongerers. They want a war, and by joe they'll have it! Too bad the biggest victims are those without an agenda, the civilians of Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon.

Not to breach the cease-fire... by attacking east Lebanon... ...cos... Fuck it. You tell me what you think a breach of cease-fire is.


If Hez is making an arms transfer then they are in breach and Israel is merely responding/retaliating.

The article you quoted mentioned that any arms transfer, if it was happening was a serious breach.

"You yourself" isn't me, I hope? You are just being your incoherent self, right..?

Yes Mongooses, Let's hope.
I wasn't referring to you, sorry about the misunderstanding. I should've quoted the pserson I was responding too

How is an arms transfer the breach of a ceasefire? I'm just curious...

Beats me why they didn't do it then. Should have done it then instead of now, but now is as good a time as any.

*Shrugs*
You missed the point. They can't. You can't smoke terrorism out with oppression and your own terrorism. It just breeds more of the crap. The fact is that Israel tried for 20 years to kill off hezbollah, but they couldn't. Now they are heading down that very same 20 year path, and if they take it, I guarantee you Hezbollah will be standing at the end. It's like trying to cure cancer with aids, and more cancer.

How is an arms transfer the breach of a ceasefire? I'm just curious...
because part of the terms HEzbollah agreed to were that they wouldn't rearm. Any rearmament is a breach of 1701 and thus would make Israel's actions legal.

If Hez is making an arms transfer then they are in breach and Israel is merely responding/retaliating.

The article you quoted mentioned that any arms transfer, if it was happening was a serious breach.
OK. I have quoted no article in this thread, never. I merely asked you what a breach of a cease-fire means to you. Strange shit that. Do keep making an ass of yourself.

because part of the terms HEzbollah agreed to were that they wouldn't rearm. Any rearmament is a breach of 1701 and thus would make Israel's actions legal.
Alrighty. Is there anywhere I can read 1701?

If Hez is making an arms transfer then they are in breach and Israel is merely responding/retaliating.

The article you quoted mentioned that any arms transfer, if it was happening was a serious breach.
Does that mean Israel hasn't been receiving military aid from the US either?Because that is the same sort of thing.

Alrighty. Is there anywhere I can read 1701?
Try googling the phrase "Un Resolution 1701." It's amazing. :rolleyes:

I wasn't referring to you, sorry about the misunderstanding. I should've quoted the pserson I was responding too Sure. pals.

Try googling the phrase "Un Resolution 1701." It's amazing. :rolleyes:
Gooo-gle... what is this wonderful invention?! :D

And okay... I have just read the 1701... I can now see why France - or my country - is reluctant to send troops to Lebanon. There is no clear mandate! The UN troops can not know what is expected from them (NEWS!). I could go on for hours about this... but shit.

And yes, it seems Israel is allowed to act if Hez arms.... so cease-fire might not have been breached per se... but still ;)

So... me saying "1701 breached" is a bit pretentious. Should have said: "cease-fire broken". My bad. Good night all.

...I was sure the Hez had itchy trigger fingers enough to fuck it. Bad me!


That's because of the way Hezbollah are negatively steryotyped by Western media. They are supposedly terrorists, and at first I though perhaps they may have been, but after all the destruction Israel has caused, plus the mass murder of innocent civilians, and the fact that they refused to allow aid organisations into a harbour (one that was NOT being bombed), I seriously believe Israel started the whole thing. What exactly have Hezbollah done exactly to be labelled terrorists? Defended themselves against Israel? The Western media are totally biased. Someone post this on an Arabic website for me so that Arabs don't think we're all totally biased idiots :)

snip. What exactly have Hezbollah done exactly to be labelled terrorists? Defended themselves against Israel? The Western media are totally biased. Someone post this on an Arabic website for me so that Arabs don't think we're all totally biased idiots :)
Well, while I don't support Israel at all, Hezbollah did attack IDF soldiers, and capture a pair of them, and they are pretty much using the Lebanese civilians as living shields...

Well, while I don't support Israel at all, Hezbollah did attack IDF soldiers, and capture a pair of them....
While I don't condone or support the actions of Hezb'allah, how are they the actions of a "terrorist" group?

And okay... I have just read the 1701... I can now see why France - or my country - is reluctant to send troops to Lebanon. There is no clear mandate! The UN troops can not know what is expected from them (NEWS!). I could go on for hours about this... but shit.

And yes, it seems Israel is allowed to act if Hez arms.... so cease-fire might not have been breached per se... but still

So... me saying "1701 breached" is a bit pretentious. Should have said: "cease-fire broken". My bad. Good night all.

Night.

Well, while I don't support Israel at all, Hezbollah did attack IDF soldiers, and capture a pair of them, and they are pretty much using the Lebanese civilians as living shields...

Apparently the attack and capture was due to Israel firing rockets into some city, I think Lebanon. And they aren't using the Lebanese civilians as living shields - Israel didn't give civilians chance to get out before starting their murders.

Wow, a UN resolution didn't work... :rolleyes:

Apparently the attack and capture was due to Israel firing rockets into some city, I think Lebanon. And they aren't using the Lebanese civilians as living shields - Israel didn't give civilians chance to get out before starting their murders.
*shrug* Semantics. Hezbollah militants are hiding among the civilian population of south Lebanon, whether they are willingly using the civilians as shields or not.

This is how things like My Lai happen.

We could look at the fact that the whole "war" started because Hez abducted a pair of Israeli soldiers and refused to return them. Then there's the fact that Hez's stated reason for existance is the elimination of Israel. If you want to blame someone for all the shit that Israel goes through over there don't blame Israel, blame us. After all, we were the ones that had the bright idea of creating a Jewish state right smack in the middle of a region where every other nation has a deep-seated hatred of Judaism.

In point of fact, the Israeli military actually delayed several operations to allow civilians to leave. In fact, they spread leaflets to convince people to leave the battlezone. Large numbers chose not to. You can't say the Israelis didn't try.

That's because of the way Hezbollah are negatively steryotyped by Western media. They are supposedly terrorists, and at first I though perhaps they may have been, but after all the destruction Israel has caused, plus the mass murder of innocent civilians, and the fact that they refused to allow aid organisations into a harbour (one that was NOT being bombed), I seriously believe Israel started the whole thing. What exactly have Hezbollah done exactly to be labelled terrorists? Defended themselves against Israel? The Western media are totally biased. Someone post this on an Arabic website for me so that Arabs don't think we're all totally biased idiots :)


I guess the world has gone mad. Putting the current conflict aside, Hizballah was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks suicide bombings in beirut...

from wiki:

The death toll was 241 American servicemen: 220 Marines, 18 Navy personnel and 3 Army soldiers. Sixty Americans were injured. In the attack on the French barracks, 58 paratroopers were killed and 15 injured. In addition, the elderly Lebanese custodian of the Marines' building was killed in the first blast. [1] The wife and four children of a Lebanese janitor at the French building also were killed.

If that doesn't warrant being called a terrorist organization, I'm not sure what does.

p.s. Being a paramilitary organization that launches cross borders raids from one country into another country and kidnaps soldiers also warrants being labeled terrorists...should I also add in the indiscriminant firing of rockets into population centers with hopes of massing civilian casualties?

We could look at the fact that the whole "war" started because Hez abducted a pair of Israeli soldiers and refused to return them.
True.

Then there's the fact that Hez's stated reason for existance is the elimination of Israel.
Nnnngggg. Their raison d'etre is the defence of Lebanese territory from foreign aggressors- yes foreign. See the U.S Marine Barrack truck bombing, or the bombing of the French forces in Beirut in the early 1980's.

Today, their casus belli is the dispute over the Shebaa Farms (claimed by Lebanon, "given" to Lebanon by Syria, but internationally recognised (by Israel too) as being Syrian territory, and as such internationally recognised being occupied illegally under Resolution 242 by Israel.

If you want to blame someone for all the shit that Israel goes through over there don't blame Israel, blame us. After all, we were the ones that had the bright idea of creating a Jewish state right smack in the middle of a region where every other nation has a deep-seated hatred of Judaism.
I don't buy that argument for a second. They're all big boys. They're responsible for their own actions.

OK. I have quoted no article in this thread, never. I merely asked you what a breach of a cease-fire means to you. Strange shit that. Do keep making an ass of yourself.


My bad, twas Izta something that quoted the article.

To me, breaching a cease-fire means you do something contrary to what you agreed to do or not do when both sides sat down and 'ceased' 'firing' weapons at each other.

I guess the world has gone mad. Putting the current conflict aside, Hizballah was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks suicide bombings in beirut...

from wiki:



If that doesn't warrant being called a terrorist organization, I'm not sure what does.?
Sorry, how is attacking military targets a "terrorist" act?

Nnnngggg. Their raison d'etre is the defence of Lebanese territory from foreign aggressors- yes foreign. See the U.S Marine Barrack truck bombing, or the bombing of the French forces in Beirut in the early 1980's.

Which was Ironic as we were there in a peacekeeping capacity and evacuating the PLO from Lebanon and not interferring with their little Civil War. In essence, they attacked a neutral third party.

I guess the world has gone mad. Putting the current conflict aside, Hizballah was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks suicide bombings in beirut...

If that doesn't warrant being called a terrorist organization, I'm not sure what does.

p.s. Being a paramilitary organization that launches cross borders raids from one country into another country and kidnaps soldiers also warrants being labeled terrorists...should I also add in the indiscriminant firing of rockets into population centers with hopes of massing civilian casualties?
The problem is that Hezbollah is more than just a terrorist group. They've started the transformation into a political entity, much as Fatah did when it became the backbone of the PLO, or as the IRA sprouted Sinn Fein, and they're doing that by providing services for the people who live in their area of protection. They fund schools and housing construction and hospitals. They were the first ones when the Israeli shelling stopped to be back out there offering money and bulldozers to get the rebulding started. In short, they're winning the hearts and minds of the Lebanese people by being the heroes instead of the villians, which is why Israel will not succeed, no matter how many bombs they drop on Hezbollah.

Which was Ironic as we were there in a peacekeeping capacity and evacuating the PLO from Lebanon and not interferring with their little Civil War. In essence, they attacked a neutral third party.
A horrid and stupid move on their part.

Sorry, how is attacking military targets a "terrorist" act?
Hezbollah's suicide bombings during the intifada WERE terrorist attacks. They targetted city buses and shopping malls.

As far as breaking the ceasefire, all the Israel-haters scream and yell everytime there is an airstrike because airstrikes are deemed "disproportionate" uses of force. Yet when they go for the more costly commando raid, which risks lives and took the life of one soldier, they are also deemed wrong and a breach of international law. The duplicity is astonishing. I guess Israel is supposed to sit back and let all the work they did this past month go to waste and let Hizballah rearm.

We all know 1701 doesn't do a damn thing about Hizballah...the UN can't even gather the troop quota is promised! It's even more laughable seeing France send in some 50 odd engineers that are going to be too busy rebuilding bridges and such than actually disarming Hizballah, which both the UN and Lebanon have said they DON'T PLAN ON DOING.

A horrid and stupid move on their part.

And one where they should have been punished for by military forces by the US and France combined if you want my opinion on that. :p

They got the US and France both to retreat after that incident.

Hezbollah's suicide bombings during the intifada WERE terrorist attacks. They targetted city buses and shopping malls.

That is a terrorist act. Hitting a military target is not.

The problem is that Hezbollah is more than just a terrorist group. They've started the transformation into a political entity, much as Fatah did when it became the backbone of the PLO, or as the IRA sprouted Sinn Fein, and they're doing that by providing services for the people who live in their area of protection. They fund schools and housing construction and hospitals. They were the first ones when the Israeli shelling stopped to be back out there offering money and bulldozers to get the rebulding started. In short, they're winning the hearts and minds of the Lebanese people by being the heroes instead of the villians, which is why Israel will not succeed, no matter how many bombs they drop on Hezbollah.


Crush Hizballah and make it impossible for them to attack Israel with arms. Wanna stop their political wing from giving charity? Take out the guys giving out the donations to Hez...i.e.Syria and Iran. If Iran hasn't destroyed the world by this Tuesday, I would bet we'd be seeing bombs over Tehran and Damascus relatviely soon.

Hezbollah's suicide bombings during the intifada WERE terrorist attacks. They targetted city buses and shopping malls.
City buses and shopping malls are "military targets" now?

-snip]

Twenty years of occupation didn't get rid of Hezb'allah. The UN is still trying to iron out the mandate, hence the European's reluctance to send more troops yet. They saw the kicking the IDF received and with memories of taking on Hezb'allah themselves fresh, you can forgive them for not jumping straight in.

As for the "commando raid", something doesn't smell right about that for me. A lot of effort for a simple weapons transfer. The IDF could have done their normal thing and used gunships, jets or UAVs.

And one where they should have been punished for by military forces by the US and France combined if you want my opinion on that. :p

They got the US and France both to retreat after that incident.
Yeah, the "Reagan was the mightiest leader EVAR" folks never mention that bit. They're all over the "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall," but they never talk about pulling out of Lebanon like a whipped dog.

Crush Hizballah and make it impossible for them to attack Israel with arms. Wanna stop their political wing from giving charity? Take out the guys giving out the donations to Hez...i.e.Syria and Iran. If Iran hasn't destroyed the world by this Tuesday, I would bet we'd be seeing bombs over Tehran and Damascus relatviely soon.If it were that easy, don't you think it might have happened already? This ain't an XBox scenario.

That's because of the way Hezbollah are negatively steryotyped by Western media. They are supposedly terrorists, and at first I though perhaps they may have been, but after all the destruction Israel has caused, plus the mass murder of innocent civilians, and the fact that they refused to allow aid organisations into a harbour (one that was NOT being bombed), I seriously believe Israel started the whole thing. What exactly have Hezbollah done exactly to be labelled terrorists? Defended themselves against Israel? The Western media are totally biased. Someone post this on an Arabic website for me so that Arabs don't think we're all totally biased idiots :)


Well, no sense in even looking at their history, their actions or their platform.
How wonderfully easy your life must be where whatever has happened before can't matter today.

Israel: Raid targets weapons transfer (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/19/mideast.main.05/index.html)

Just to post what Israel is saying.

Well, no sense in even looking at their history, their actions or their platform.
How wonderfully easy your life must be where whatever has happened before can't matter today.
Careful you don't stub yourself on the same snag. Israel ain't exactly blameless in this whole mess. Hezbollah may be a bunch of shitheads, but the Israelis ain't angels.

As far as breaking the ceasefire, all the Israel-haters scream and yell everytime there is an airstrike because airstrikes are deemed "disproportionate" uses of force. Yet when they go for the more costly commando raid, which risks lives and took the life of one soldier, they are also deemed wrong and a breach of international law. The duplicity is astonishing. I guess Israel is supposed to sit back and let all the work they did this past month go to waste and let Hizballah rearm.

We all know 1701 doesn't do a damn thing about Hizballah...the UN can't even gather the troop quota is promised! It's even more laughable seeing France send in some 50 odd engineers that are going to be too busy rebuilding bridges and such than actually disarming Hizballah, which both the UN and Lebanon have said they DON'T PLAN ON DOING. It wasn't on anyone's agenda to forcibly disarm Hezbollah. Only Israel wanted to do that. Why are you so shocked that nobody else wants to. Also, people are now decrying the commando raid because they were against the ceasefire, not because they hate Israel. Geez you guys have such a persecution complex. Try not to confuse the fact that everyone is sick of Israels shit with a monumental crime of anti-semitism. This whole thing has nothing to do with religion, at all. Clear? Sheesh.

Careful you don't stub yourself on the same snag. Israel ain't exactly blameless in this whole mess. Hezbollah may be a bunch of shitheads, but the Israelis ain't angels.
This is what I am saying. Just because your side is wrong doesn't mean the other side is right. Too many of the pro-israel crowd seem to think that it is either Israel is right and they are allowed to bomb the shit out of whoever the fuck they want, for whatever reason they please, or that you support the annhiliation of the Jewish race/state. Its a false dichotomy damnit! Israel is a scumbag of a country, Hezbollah is a shitlicker of an organisation, and Hamas can go and lick nuts. They all suck. But the fact is that they are there, and they need to work shit out. Right now, I'm afraid to say, Israel is trumping the long-contested rivalry for the title of the most counter-productive group. Hezbollah is coming in a close second. Hamas was actually behaving quite well until they were rounded up and placed in jail in the recent spate of Israeli aggression.

Hamas was actually behaving quite well until they were rounded up and placed in jail in the recent spate of Israeli aggression.

They were and I had high hopes. Unfortunately they were dashed by their attack and kidnapping on IDF personnel.

This is what I am saying. Just because your side is wrong doesn't mean the other side is right. Too many of the pro-israel crowd seem to think that it is either Israel is right and they are allowed to bomb the shit out of whoever the fuck they want, for whatever reason they please, or that you support the annhiliation of the Jewish race/state. Its a false dichotomy damnit! Israel is a scumbag of a country, Hezbollah is a shitlicker of an organisation, and Hamas can go and lick nuts. They all suck. But the fact is that they are there, and they need to work shit out. Right now, I'm afraid to say, Israel is trumping the long-contested rivalry for the title of the most counter-productive group. Hezbollah is coming in a close second. Hamas was actually behaving quite well until they were rounded up and placed in jail in the recent spate of Israeli aggression.
Amen. I've long said there are two potential ways to solve this whole mess. The first is the "everybody out of the pool" method, which involves forcibly removing everyone living there and then turning the land into glass--the "if you can't share the toy, nobody gets it" method.

And then there's the more peaceful solution: drop burning bales of marijuana every five city blocks, wait for everyone to get toasted, then follow it up with airlifts of pizza and twinkies. Repeat until everyone fucking loves each other.

drop burning bales of marijuana every five city blocks, wait for everyone to get toasted, then follow it up with airlifts of pizza and twinkies. Repeat until everyone fucking loves each other.Now I almost want to move there :D

Now I almost want to move there :D
Vote for me to be UN General Secretary. :D

It wasn't on anyone's agenda to forcibly disarm Hezbollah. Only Israel wanted to do that. Why are you so shocked that nobody else wants to. Also, people are now decrying the commando raid because they were against the ceasefire, not because they hate Israel. Geez you guys have such a persecution complex. Try not to confuse the fact that everyone is sick of Israels shit with a monumental crime of anti-semitism. This whole thing has nothing to do with religion, at all. Clear? Sheesh.


Well goodluck trying to disarm them any other way! You think they are gonna lay down their arms by talking nice to them?

I guess it's ok to make Israel stop military actions against an organization militarily equipped and touting its goal of destroying Israel. Telling someone to restrain themselves while allowing the terrorists to frolick freely in southern lebanon is no cure to the situation.

I usually don't do this...but ahh what the hell...

UN: "STOP IT ISRAEL! STOP FIGHTING THE PEOPLE WHO WANT YOU DEAD!"
ISRAEL: "WELL THEN WHO IS GOING TO REMOVE THE GENOCIDAL TERROR GROUP DEDICATED TO OUR DESTRUCTION??"
UN: ::stares blankly into space and shrugs shoulders:: "UHHH...I GUESS JUST TAKE IT FROM THEM UNTIL SOMEONE SACS UP..which they probably won't."

Why is it that the Jews are the only ones not allowed to defend themselves?

Not about religion? You must not be following the events closely. Nasrallah invokes the name of Allah and the nation of Islam constantly when it comes to attacking Israel. They are a radical Shiite ISLAMIC group. Islam is a religion u kno...

Now I almost want to move there :D


we can all agree on something for once!

Twenty years of occupation didn't get rid of Hezb'allah. The UN is still trying to iron out the mandate, hence the European's reluctance to send more troops yet. They saw the kicking the IDF received and with memories of taking on Hezb'allah themselves fresh, you can forgive them for not jumping straight in.

World condemnation and outcry, coupled with massive Hizballah and other Arab propoganda also hindered Israels activities in Lebanon in '82 and Israel was never allowed to fully deal with Hizballah and deal a death blow. Moreover, once Israel pulled out of Lebanon, it was seen as a sign of weakness by Arab extremists. Evidence of that is the subsequent Intifada that followed a few months after the pullout. Showing weakness means more terror.

World condemnation and outcry, coupled with massive Hizballah and other Arab propoganda also hindered Israels activities in Lebanon in '82 and Israel was never allowed to fully deal with Hizballah and deal a death blow. Moreover, once Israel pulled out of Lebanon, it was seen as a sign of weakness by Arab extremists. Evidence of that is the subsequent Intifada that followed a few months after the pullout. Showing weakness means more terror.
"Kill 'em all" isn't exactly a viable strategy either, because you never kill them all, and the more you kill, the more people flock to their banner, so unless you're ready to commit genocide...

"Kill 'em all" isn't exactly a viable strategy either, because you never kill them all, and the more you kill, the more people flock to their banner, so unless you're ready to commit genocide...


Kill their leaders so they are like chickens running with their heads cut off, remove their sponsors (Iran and Syria) from the equation (any way you see fit I guess), kill enough of them to break their will...all the while preventing further rearmament from Syria and Iran...if they aren't already out of the equation, meaning rearmament won't be a problem.

Kill their leaders so they are like chickens running with their heads cut off,

Fat chance.

remove their sponsors (Iran and Syria) from the equation (any way you see fit I guess),

Not practical without a full scale invasion and no one wants to invade Iran.

kill enough of them to break their will...

Yea right.

all the while preventing further rearmament from Syria and Iran..

Seems like this one could work if you can figure out how they are trying to get weapons in.

if they aren't already out of the equation, meaning rearmament won't be a problem.

Care to bet?

Kill their leaders so they are like chickens running with their heads cut off, remove their sponsors (Iran and Syria) from the equation (any way you see fit I guess), kill enough of them to break their will...all the while preventing further rearmament from Syria and Iran...if they aren't already out of the equation, meaning rearmament won't be a problem.One definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Think about that for a bit while you examine your "strategy."

Well, Israel says that Hizbollah broke it first by transferring weapons.


Hezbollah broke it by firing rockets at them...Again no peep from the left.

Careful you don't stub yourself on the same snag. Israel ain't exactly blameless in this whole mess. Hezbollah may be a bunch of shitheads, but the Israelis ain't angels.


No danger there, I'm aware of faults on both sides.
But the blame is far from equal.

Hezbollah broke it by firing rockets at them...Again no peep from the left.

And it never landed inside Israel either.

One definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Think about that for a bit while you examine your "strategy."


Careful you don't stub yourself on the same snag. ;) The Arab nations around Israel plus the Palestinians have been doing the same thing over and over in regards to the existence of Israel and somehow expecting different results, like maybe they will just go away?

Careful you don't stub yourself on the same snag. ;) The Arab nations around Israel plus the Palestinians have been doing the same thing over and over in regards to the existence of Israel and somehow expecting different results, like maybe they will just go away?
Context, man. Look at my comment in context to the one it was replying to before you try the snark on me, okay?

Context, man. Look at my comment in context to the one it was replying to before you try the snark on me, okay?


I always read in context.
It was a small bend to fit it in.

I always read in context.
It was a small bend to fit it in.
No--it was a stretch worthy of Deep Kimchi. Let's recap.
"Kill 'em all" isn't exactly a viable strategy either, because you never kill them all, and the more you kill, the more people flock to their banner, so unless you're ready to commit genocide...

Kill their leaders so they are like chickens running with their heads cut off, remove their sponsors (Iran and Syria) from the equation (any way you see fit I guess), kill enough of them to break their will...all the while preventing further rearmament from Syria and Iran...if they aren't already out of the equation, meaning rearmament won't be a problem.

One definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Think about that for a bit while you examine your "strategy."

Careful you don't stub yourself on the same snag. The Arab nations around Israel plus the Palestinians have been doing the same thing over and over in regards to the existence of Israel and somehow expecting different results, like maybe they will just go away?
Nothing I wrote had anything to do with the relationship between Israel and the Arab nations. It was specifically relating to Greater Valinor's overall strategy. Now, had I been taking a side on this issue, or specifically defending one side over the other, instead of saying, basically, "a pox on both your houses," your comment might have been relevant.

So the question remains. Who actually breached the UN resolution first? Was it Israel as Kofi Annan claims or was it Hezbollah as Israel claims?

No--it was a stretch worthy of Deep Kimchi. Let's recap.

Nothing I wrote had anything to do with the relationship between Israel and the Arab nations. It was specifically relating to Greater Valinor's overall strategy. Now, had I been taking a side on this issue, or specifically defending one side over the other, instead of saying, basically, "a pox on both your houses," your comment might have been relevant.


Interestingly enough, I also was not taking a side in the context of my comment to Multiland and was basically saying, "a pox on your admitted ignorance of the facts and knee jerk assumptions".
I didn't defend or even mention Israel to Multiland as he commented that Hezbollah must be justified and can't have been terrorists because of what Israel is doing now.
Nothing that I wrote had anything to do with whether Israel was angelic or not, yet you felt the need to point it out to me.


Btw, I've reread your comments in this specifc exchange a couple of times now, and I'm not seeing where the pox for both houses can be seen or inferred. Perhaps that was your thought process, but it's not clear in the words.

So the question remains. Who actually breached the UN resolution first? Was it Israel as Kofi Annan claims or was it Hezbollah as Israel claims?


Hezbollah, they fired the rockets first. Kofi just hates Israel, he is a terrible leader anyway.

Well goodluck trying to disarm them any other way! You think they are gonna lay down their arms by talking nice to them?

I guess it's ok to make Israel stop military actions against an organization militarily equipped and touting its goal of destroying Israel. Telling someone to restrain themselves while allowing the terrorists to frolick freely in southern lebanon is no cure to the situation.

I usually don't do this...but ahh what the hell...

UN: "STOP IT ISRAEL! STOP FIGHTING THE PEOPLE WHO WANT YOU DEAD!"
ISRAEL: "WELL THEN WHO IS GOING TO REMOVE THE GENOCIDAL TERROR GROUP DEDICATED TO OUR DESTRUCTION??"
UN: ::stares blankly into space and shrugs shoulders:: "UHHH...I GUESS JUST TAKE IT FROM THEM UNTIL SOMEONE SACS UP..which they probably won't."

Why is it that the Jews are the only ones not allowed to defend themselves?

Not about religion? You must not be following the events closely. Nasrallah invokes the name of Allah and the nation of Islam constantly when it comes to attacking Israel. They are a radical Shiite ISLAMIC group. Islam is a religion u kno...
The actors are religious, but the plot is not a religious one. It is about land. Or more accurately, power. You're acting as if Israel was just sitting there on it's lonesome when Hezbollah and Hamas came along calling for their destruction. A quick glance a history shows us that Israel is reaping exactly what they have sowed in the middle east, resentment. There are no innocent parties, least of all Israel.

So how would you like to see this progress? Like it did for 20 years in lebanon under occupation, or like it did in northern Ireland with the IRA?

Careful you don't stub yourself on the same snag. ;) The Arab nations around Israel plus the Palestinians have been doing the same thing over and over in regards to the existence of Israel and somehow expecting different results, like maybe they will just go away?
The Nazz never supported Hezbollah. He simply doesn't support Israel. As such, he is in no danger of snubbing himself on the snag of arab hypocrisy.

The Nazz never supported Hezbollah. He simply doesn't support Israel. As such, he is in no danger of snubbing himself on the snag of arab hypocrisy.
I'm even vaguer than that, actually. :) I support Israel's right to exist, while simultaneously noting that 1) the way the country was set up was fucked up and fucked a lot of people who have never been recompensed and who are rightly pissed, 2) Israel's leaders often act like douchebags and bring a lot of shit upon themselves and 3) have somehow made it possible for a terrorist group like Hezbollah to come off looking like the good guys here, which is no mean feat of incompetence. It's Bush-quality incompetence.

I said some stuff earlier which could potentially be read as favorable to Hezbollah--and they've made some smart moves as they transition from being solely a terrorist group to being a quasi-political party--but that shouldn't be read as support for them. It's simply an acknowledgement that they're morphing, just as Sinn Fein developed, just as Fatah developed, just as any group that starts out as guerillas/terrorists and wants to eventually actually take power has to if it's going to ultimately be successful. If Hezbollah continues down this road, they will be a party to be reckoned with, and all the hearkening back to the Marine barracks in 1983 won't change that.

Hezbollah, they fired the rockets first. Kofi just hates Israel, he is a terrible leader anyway. Yeah, just like everyone who doesn't support Israel, right? We all just hate Israel (And probably all Jews too). Thats rational. :rolleyes:

I'm even vaguer than that, actually. :) I support Israel's right to exist, while simultaneously noting that 1) the way the country was set up was fucked up and fucked a lot of people who have never been recompensed and who are rightly pissed, 2) Israel's leaders often act like douchebags and bring a lot of shit upon themselves and 3) have somehow made it possible for a terrorist group like Hezbollah to come off looking like the good guys here, which is no mean feat of incompetence. It's Bush-quality incompetence. Ten out of ten. I can't say I differ at all from that. I don't like the way in which Israel came into being, but it's there now. My Ideal solution would be a withdrawal of US support from Israel, then the eventual formation of a secular merger state between Israel and Palestine. I'm not sure if both sides would be happy with it though...

I said some stuff earlier which could potentially be read as favorable to Hezbollah--and they've made some smart moves as they transition from being solely a terrorist group to being a quasi-political party--but that shouldn't be read as support for them. It's simply an acknowledgement that they're morphing, just as Sinn Fein developed, just as Fatah developed, just as any group that starts out as guerillas/terrorists and wants to eventually actually take power has to if it's going to ultimately be successful. If Hezbollah continues down this road, they will be a party to be reckoned with, and all the hearkening back to the Marine barracks in 1983 won't change that.
When did acknowledging the facts become a declaration of allegiance?! I do agree though. Hopefully Hezbollah will follow the same path as the IRA, and eventually become a non-military organisation. However, it is unlikely if they continued to be manhandled such by Israel.

then the eventual formation of a secular merger state between Israel and Palestine. I'm not sure if both sides would be happy with it though...

I've always liked this idea. Let them live as God intended, together and not stabbing/shooting/bombing each other at every chance. I'm not optimistic about the odds for such a solution actually going through, though.

The Nazz never supported Hezbollah. He simply doesn't support Israel. As such, he is in no danger of snubbing himself on the snag of arab hypocrisy.


By alluding to Israel's actions as fitting a commonly quoted definition of insanity with the implied take away being that Israel needs to change it's action in order to be sane while not extending the allusion to those opposing Israel his stubbing comment is at least the same if not more so fit to his comments as mine regarding a poster not considering the past of Hezbollah when assigning blame now.

I never stated Israel was angelic, yet he felt compelled to draw that fact to my attention.
He never stated that the Arabs are not as insane as the Israelis, so I returned the favour and drew his attention to that fact.

If our tits for tats are complete, we can safely move on now.

If it were that easy, don't you think it might have happened already? This ain't an XBox scenario.
Bam. Quoted for insight. Popular media skewing the truth of conflict has a lot to blame for the attitudes of a large number of current commentators.

Hezbollah, they fired the rockets first. Kofi just hates Israel, he is a terrible leader anyway.

how can you have a rational debate when this sort of shite is served up? :rolleyes:

how can you have a rational debate when this sort of shite is served up? :rolleyes:

Very good question.

there is no breach,only enforcing it :rolleyes:
Thanks UN.:fluffle:

how many of you expected Israel to breach the cease-fire? I didn't.!
I did.

The actors are religious, but the plot is not a religious one. It is about land. Or more accurately, power. You're acting as if Israel was just sitting there on it's lonesome when Hezbollah and Hamas came along calling for their destruction. A quick glance a history shows us that Israel is reaping exactly what they have sowed in the middle east, resentment. There are no innocent parties, least of all Israel.

So how would you like to see this progress? Like it did for 20 years in lebanon under occupation, or like it did in northern Ireland with the IRA?

How is this about land with Hizballah OR Hamas??? Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and maintained no presence there, yet Hizballah still crossed the border and kidnapped/killed soldiers. And don't pull that whole Shebaa Farms garbage. It's just an excuse. It's Syrian land occupied by Israel since '67. Someone posted earlier it was "given" to Lebanon from Syria..but seeing how Israel has been in control of the Golan since '67, it doesn't make sense that its Lebanese land.

Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of Israel and rejection of peaceful solutions.

Arabs have been trying to destroy Israel before '67, hence before an occupation.

If you REALLY look at history, you'll see an Israel sitting by its lonesome constantly being subjected to Arab aggression.

btw..where was Palestinian resistance against Jordanian and Egyptisn occupation from 48-67?

I'm even vaguer than that, actually. :) I support Israel's right to exist, while simultaneously noting that 1) the way the country was set up was fucked up and fucked a lot of people who have never been recompensed and who are rightly pissed, 2) Israel's leaders often act like douchebags and bring a lot of shit upon themselves and 3) have somehow made it possible for a terrorist group like Hezbollah to come off looking like the good guys here, which is no mean feat of incompetence. It's Bush-quality incompetence.

seriously..the only ones who fucked Palestinian Arabs were Jordanian, Syrian, Egyptian and all other Arabs who launched a war of extermination against Israel after its inception which led to the displacement of roughly 700,000 Palestinian Arabs.

What don't you guys get about the UN compromising b/w Jewish and Arab populations in mandated Palestine..already after 80% of the mandate was turned into Transjordan.

How about the over ONE MILLION Jewish refugees forced out of their homes by the various Islamic and Arab nations of the Middle East with no compensation. They werne't even displaced by a war, they were kicked out.

Wonder why you don't see any Jewish suicide bombers and terrorists running rampant in the countries they were forced out of.

But i can agree with you Olmert is an incompetant. He had a month to accomplish alot, and he pussy footed around instead of givin Hizballah what they deserved.

*shrug* Semantics. Hezbollah militants are hiding among the civilian population of south Lebanon, whether they are willingly using the civilians as shields or not.

This is how things like My Lai happen.

No, things like My Lai happen when a bunch of semi-racist fuckwits are running around in somebody elses country. Likewise Lebanon. Your name is very ironic, given your statement.

How is this about land with Hizballah OR Hamas??? Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and maintained no presence there,?

Shaba farms, and wasnt there the odd "raid" on the sly? Including one that went badly wrong?


. It's Syrian land occupied by Israel since '67. Someone posted earlier it was "given" to Lebanon from Syria..but seeing how Israel has been in control of the Golan since '67, it doesn't make sense that its Lebanese land.,?

Not Israeli land though, is it?



If you REALLY look at history, you'll see an Israel sitting by its lonesome constantly being subjected to Arab aggression.


How does that justify colonies outside the 1967 borders?

I have spent a year of my life watching those same exact people doing that same exact shit in 1987, wearing a blue beret in my head. Don't pity me for being ignorant, pity me for doing that. What's Fox News?
You spent the last year of your life watching 1987? You could be more clear a lot of things happened in 1987, the Intifada, Riots at the Haj, Iraq shot the Stark, The libyans were pushed from Chad(they wear blue berets).

DO you mean the Blue Line in Southern Lebanon where Israel occupied ANOTHER Arab nation unjustly?

Catch me up here bunny, be more specific about Israeli war crimes--there are too many for me to guess.

.

Wonder why you don't see any Jewish suicide bombers and terrorists running rampant in the countries they were forced out of.

Because American Attack Aircraft and cluster bombs kill so much more efficiently.

But i can agree with you Olmert is an incompetant. He had a month to accomplish alot, and he pussy footed around instead of givin Hizballah what they deserved.
Exactly, Olmert should have worked out some arrangment through Hezbollah to pay restitution to the Lebanese people for 20+ years of illegal occupation of Southern Lebanon---you siad it yourself "they havnt been there since 2000" Israel is suppose to get a pat on the back for ending an illegal occupation.

The League of Nations is the cause of agression against Israel, they caused it be creating Israel in lands where people already lived.

Shaba farms, and wasnt there the odd "raid" on the sly? Including one that went badly wrong?

don't know what raid ur talking about. The farms are simply an excuse to continue attacks on Israel. It was never part of Lebanon and still is not part of Lebanon so it is not a legitimate claim. see my above post.

Not Israeli land though, is it?

captured in a defensive war. syrian snipers can no longer fire into Israeli towns and cities in northern Israel. No invasion by Syria in '67, no occupation.


How does that justify colonies outside the 1967 borders?

They don't need justification. The Arabs refused to make peace before there were settlements. Arabs were trying to destroy Israel before '67. No '67 war, not occupation of land. Israel must maintain defensible borders against hostile enemies! Settlements are a reminder that time is not on the side of the Palestinians and that they better wise up and disarm or else the status quo will be changed because of the fortified settlements. I believe an Israeli leader once referred to it as "creating facts on the ground."

Because American Attack Aircraft and cluster bombs kill so much more efficiently.

Israel only bombs in retaliation. Read the context. I was referring to suicide bombings in retaliation for the Arab and Islamic countries expelling over ONE MILLION Jews from their lands.

Exactly, Olmert should have worked out some arrangment through Hezbollah to pay restitution to the Lebanese people for 20+ years of illegal occupation of Southern Lebanon---you siad it yourself "they havnt been there since 2000" Israel is suppose to get a pat on the back for ending an illegal occupation.

What about restitution for the citizens of northern Israel that lived under sniper fire and rocket attacks by the PLO BEFORE they invaded to begin with. That occupation wasn't illegal..it was necessary for the defense of northern Israel. If not for mass Arab propoganda and UN condemnation, Israel would have been able to crush Hizballah instead of being forced to restrain themselves for 20 years. If 1559 would have been implemented, we wouldn't have an issue anymore. way to go UN.

The League of Nations is the cause of agression against Israel, they caused it be creating Israel in lands where people already lived.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but Jews are people and they sure as hell lived in that land as well. It's called a compromise...a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. The Arabs lucked out and got 80% of the land 20 years before Israel was established (transjordan) and the rest was split for Israel and Palestine. Arabs are the ones who refused to accept a non-Arab, non-Islamic state in the middle east

Luckily more Americans are seeing the truth about the ISraeli attrocities commited against Muslim and Christian Arab civilians perpetrated on a continuing basis by Israel.
I give it a generation before America with draws its blanket support for the rogue terrorist state and all the nation wronged gain their retribution.
The only uncompromising entity in the Mideast is Israel and the United States backer.

Shaba Farms was never Israeli land, When you place troops over a border and keep them there that is occupation regardless if there is a city there or a dust cloud. Israel is a Zionist imperial state, not a Jewish one. A nuclear Iran will be the best thing to happen to that region since the inception of Hezbollah and resistance to murderous actions of the Israeli war machine.

How is this about land with Hizballah OR Hamas??? Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and maintained no presence there, yet Hizballah still crossed the border and kidnapped/killed soldiers. And don't pull that whole Shebaa Farms garbage. It's just an excuse. It's Syrian land occupied by Israel since '67. Someone posted earlier it was "given" to Lebanon from Syria..but seeing how Israel has been in control of the Golan since '67, it doesn't make sense that its Lebanese land.

Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of Israel and rejection of peaceful solutions.

Arabs have been trying to destroy Israel before '67, hence before an occupation.

If you REALLY look at history, you'll see an Israel sitting by its lonesome constantly being subjected to Arab aggression.

btw..where was Palestinian resistance against Jordanian and Egyptisn occupation from 48-67?

this debate should go about dialelctics and retorics,we should look for the next egg,not the chicken.

Israel only bombs in retaliation. Read the context. I was referring to suicide bombings in retaliation for the Arab and Islamic countries expelling over ONE MILLION Jews from their lands.



What about restitution for the citizens of northern Israel that lived under sniper fire and rocket attacks by the PLO BEFORE they invaded to begin with. That occupation wasn't illegal..it was necessary for the defense of northern Israel. If not for mass Arab propoganda and UN condemnation, Israel would have been able to crush Hizballah instead of being forced to restrain themselves for 20 years. If 1559 would have been implemented, we wouldn't have an issue anymore. way to go UN.



Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but Jews are people and they sure as hell lived in that land as well. It's called a compromise...a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. The Arabs lucked out and got 80% of the land 20 years before Israel was established (transjordan) and the rest was split for Israel and Palestine. Arabs are the ones who refused to accept a non-Arab, non-Islamic state in the middle east
Jews are people, I am sorry what nation was that before the LoN cut it to pieces? You are ignoring the fact that the LoN had no right to impose a state on a region where a state already existed. The Zionists refused to live with Arab leadership they insisted they be propped up by the west with their own nation--- there was never a need for Israel, and there still is no need, and if Israel did not exist there would not be this issue.

If they dont like their neighbors they can leave.

don't know what raid ur talking about.
."

Conveniently.


The farms are simply an excuse to continue attacks on Israel. It was never part of Lebanon and still is not part of Lebanon so it is not a legitimate claim. see my above post.

I'm not saying whether its Syrian or Lebanese, I'm just pointing out its most assuredly not part of Israel.


captured in a defensive war. syrian snipers can no longer fire into Israeli towns and cities in northern Israel. No invasion by Syria in '67, no occupation..

Still not Israeli land, and also part of the reason that Syria refuses to come to an agreement.


They don't need justification. The Arabs refused to make peace before there were settlements. Arabs were trying to destroy Israel before '67. No '67 war, not occupation of land. Israel must maintain defensible borders against hostile enemies! Settlements are a reminder that time is not on the side of the Palestinians and that they better wise up and disarm or else the status quo will be changed because of the fortified settlements. I believe an Israeli leader once referred to it as "creating facts on the ground."

Theres no excuse for the settlements. I believe an Israeli leader also said that once the land was occupied the Arabs could "scutlle around like cockroaches" as there'd be nothing they could do about it. Lovely stuff.

Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of Israel and rejection of peaceful solutions.

Yeah they did that in 1987 at their founding, so it hardly stands to support the statement below

Arabs have been trying to destroy Israel before '67, hence before an occupation.

You much like Israel itself pick choose facts as you see fit and ignore international law.

If you REALLY look at history, you'll see an Israel sitting by its lonesome constantly being subjected to Arab aggression.

Yeah, aggression because Israel keeps stealing arab lands.

Jews are people, I am sorry what nation was that before the LoN cut it to pieces? You are ignoring the fact that the LoN had no right to impose a state on a region where a state already existed. The Zionists refused to live with Arab leadership they insisted they be propped up by the west with their own nation--- there was never a need for Israel, and there still is no need, and if Israel did not exist there would not be this issue.

If they dont like their neighbors they can leave.


Excuse me but what state "already existed" there? As far as history knows, before it was mandated by the allied victors, what is now Israel was simply part of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire contained citizens of all different religions, including Jews that had lived in Eretz Israel long before the Ottomans came to power. The Ottomans joined the Germans, lost, and their empire was carved into the modern Middle East. I guess there's no need for a Jewish state if you're not a Jew that has been chased out of and sluaghtered in pretty much every country where they have resided.

Yeah they did that in 1987 at their founding, so it hardly stands to support the statement below

just because hamas didn't exist before '87 doesn't mean that there weren't Arabs who wanted to destroy Israel.

You much like Israel itself pick choose facts as you see fit and ignore international law.

International law says land acquired in a defensive war is allowed to be occupied until secure borders are provided.

Yeah, aggression because Israel keeps stealing arab lands.

should i even repsond to this? what land has Israel stolen? All land Israel acquired outside of the '47 paritition were in DEFENSIVE wars

All land Israel acquired outside of the '47 paritition were in DEFENSIVE wars
It's not a "DEFENSIVE war" if you end up with more than you started, kids.

Conveniently.

link me up Nod and we'll go at it! :)

I'm not saying whether its Syrian or Lebanese, I'm just pointing out its most assuredly not part of Israel.

i guess that debate is just semantics..but the Shebaa farms are definately not reason to continue attacks on Israel.

EDIT: meaning hizballah attacking israel, since they are a lebanese militia

Still not Israeli land, and also part of the reason that Syria refuses to come to an agreement.

They're just upset they can't snipe Israelis from the heights.

Theres no excuse for the settlements. I believe an Israeli leader also said that once the land was occupied the Arabs could "scutlle around like cockroaches" as there'd be nothing they could do about it. Lovely stuff.

All I was saying is that Arab aggression and anti-Israel fervore existed long before there were settlements. Moreover, there are no settlements in gaza yet the rockets are still flying. Gaza pullout shows the world Israel is willing to disband the settlements in hopes of peace.

It's not a "DEFENSIVE war" if you end up with more than you started, kids.


It's defensive when you are attacked by all neighboring nations while they are chanting "push the Jews into the sea!"

Gots to drive 5 hours back to school...wee...see u gguys in a few hours! until next time!

Am I the only one who thought this thread was about the Enterprise from ST?:(

It's defensive when you are attacked by all neighboring nations while they are chanting "push the Jews into the sea!"

It's a bit hard for Palestinians not to get angry and say that when a lot of Israelis are saying "push the Palestinians out of greater Israel entirely!" I don't advocate either statement, nor should you or anyone else.

The only uncompromising entity in the Mideast is Israel


Wouldn't that mean that the other entities would be willing to recognise Israel's right to even exist?
I'm very unclear as to where the compromising is happening.

It's a bit hard for Palestinians not to get angry and say that when a lot of Israelis are saying "push the Palestinians out of greater Israel entirely!" I don't advocate either statement, nor should you or anyone else.

Thing is...most Israelis and Palestinians support a two-state solution.

Thing is...most Israelis and Palestinians support a two-state solution.

True. I guess I'm talking about the more extreme wings on either side.

True. I guess I'm talking about the more extreme wings on either side.

Yep. The most extreme wings do not want a two state solution.

Well, it seems to be ok for now, so hopefully this can be chalked down to an itchy trigger finger and no more.

Well, it seems to be ok for now, so hopefully this can be chalked down to an itchy trigger finger and no more.

We are going to have to wait and see.