NationStates Jolt Archive

This is mainly directed at the Abrahamic religions. I got nothing against normal religious people, but I honestly can't see how people can believe in and worship such authoritarian deities. IMO, no deity that was that uptight and fascist could really exist, and if they do, they're not worthy of worship.

Just my two cents. Anybody feel the same?

no.

maybe some people want less control over there life and such after all some religions say that if you’re a good person you get a reward but that’s a very wide field isn’t it especially when no one knows an exact definition of good so wouldn’t it be better to be a robot and go to wherever you want to guaranteed?

This is mainly directed at the Abrahamic religions. I got nothing against normal religious people, but I honestly can't see how people can believe in and worship such authoritarian deities. IMO, no deity that was thatuptight and fascist could really exist,

What? WHAT? Why does being a deity prevent being an uptight fascist?

How can a deity be fascist if he doesn't exist?

What? WHAT? Why does being a deity prevent being an uptight fascist?

I don't see how any deity could be such a fucking Benito Mussolini. How COULD they? All that power, and they just want to make sure that we think and act the way they want? Please.

but I honestly can't see how people can believe in and worship such authoritarian deities.

I guess it's kind of like how you believe in and hero-worship authoritarian societies like Nazi Germany.

I don't see how any deity could be such a fucking Benito Mussolini. How COULD they? All that power, and they just want to make sure that we think and act the way they want? Please.

*Insert cliche involving power and corruption here*

Besides, in the Abrahamic legends, God made man in his own image, so if man can produce Mussolinis and Hitlers, why couldn't God be authoritarian?

Well, if you're going to make up a god, at least make it a nice one.

"God and the gods were apparitions of observation, judgment, and punishment.
Other sentiments toward them were secondary."

"The individual desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups
is impossible, and so is civilization."

"God was a dream of good government."

I'm SUCH a nerd.

Well, if you're going to make up a god, at least make it a nice one.


Not scary enough to set the followers straight.

If people aren't scared, then how can they have a heart that is pure and good? :p

I am no fan of religion either but I also have nothing against the followers of religions.

I'm really into the 'good role model' gods rather than the 'Do as I say, not as I do' gods. That's why I like Jesus. He walked around, healed the sick, fed the hungry, taught the ignorant, made a few chairs, beat the shit out of some money changers and showed us how to die for our beliefs. That is a pretty groovy god. Too bad his fan club sucks. :p

I think the problem is, disparate groups of people tend to respond better to threats and intimidation than they do to persuasion and encouragement.

A religion would have little influence over a large community, if it lacked a coercive element - for example imposing feelings of guilt, and consequently, obligation.

It makes perfect sense if you consider that religion is just another variation of a class of rather similar, successful systems of social control. It is every bit as devised for this purpose through human agency, as the dogma of any political party, or at one readily-recognisable extreme, the ethos behind military basic training.

*Insert cliche involving power and corruption here*

Besides, in the Abrahamic legends, God made man in his own image, so if man can produce Mussolinis and Hitlers, why couldn't God be authoritarian?

I just don't understand WHY a god would WANT to be authoritarian.

I guess it's kind of like how you believe in and hero-worship authoritarian societies like Nazi Germany.

Now why aren't the mods ever around to see stuff like THIS?

Now why aren't the mods ever around to see stuff like THIS?

Stuff like.... reasonable conclusions based on repeated evidence from your own self?

I just don't understand WHY a god would WANT to be authoritarian.

shits and giggles of course we are just playthings after all so why would a God not be silly and make us have elaborate ceremonies to bond people for life because what else is there to do exactly? (apart from get a job *shakes fist at welfare drain*)

Stuff like.... reasonable conclusions based on repeated evidence from your own self?

And what evidence would that be?

And what evidence would that be?

Posts you've made, things you've written. You've made it pretty clear. I'm not going to do a search and find them because I've found you ignore, twist the meaning of or just plain respond with nonsense whenever I get into an actual debate with you on anything.

That and I don't think the search function will work.

I'm really into the 'good role model' gods rather than the 'Do as I say, not as I do' gods. That's why I like Jesus. He walked around, healed the sick, fed the hungry, taught the ignorant, made a few chairs, beat the shit out of some money changers and showed us how to die for our beliefs. That is a pretty groovy god. :p

Agreed. Now if only we could get the extremists to take a hint....

This is mainly directed at the Abrahamic religions. I got nothing against normal religious people, but I honestly can't see how people can believe in and worship such authoritarian deities. IMO, no deity that was that uptight and fascist could really exist, and if they do, they're not worthy of worship.

Just my two cents. Anybody feel the same?
I guess I feel kind of similar. My thing is, I'm not going to worship a jackass, no matter how powerful he might be. The God described in the Abrahamic religions is, in my opinion, a gigantic jackass. Even if they could somehow convince me that he's more than an authoritarian wet-dream, I still would never remotely consider debasing myself by worshipping such a pathetic bully.

I guess I agree with the OP, though I think it may be worth pointing out that the Abrahamic religions might be worshipping something that actually isn't what they think it is. After all, all we have to go on the status of what they worship comes from a particular angle.

What if they're all worshipping something else, but blatantly misrepresenting it? The fault then does not lie in the object of worship.

I'm really into the 'good role model' gods rather than the 'Do as I say, not as I do' gods. That's why I like Jesus. He walked around, healed the sick, fed the hungry, taught the ignorant, made a few chairs, beat the shit out of some money changers and showed us how to die for our beliefs. That is a pretty groovy god. Too bad his fan club sucks. :p

You forgot the fact that Jesus was the original feminist. :D

Besides, the Abrahamic faiths are pretty screwy anyways, especially the holy texts. There are eleven Commandments not ten (the extra commandment being "Thou shalt not be an ignorant fool in the name of thy Lord") and there was a verse somewhere in there that siad "If thou blow stuff up in My name, I shall smite thy idiotic arse." It got edited out.

...and if they do, they're not worthy of worship.




I still would never remotely consider debasing myself by worshipping such a pathetic bully.

Nice to know we have folks right here on Earth who consider themselves morally superior to even the concept of an omniscient being.

Sorry guys, but that's damn arrogant.

This is mainly directed at the Abrahamic religions. I got nothing against normal religious people, but I honestly can't see how people can believe in and worship such authoritarian deities. IMO, no deity that was that uptight and fascist could really exist, and if they do, they're not worthy of worship.

Just my two cents. Anybody feel the same?

Oh yeah, and your title and OP are clashing. You say you dislike most religions, but I don't think Abrahamic religions are 'most' religion. I mean, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam... I'm sure I can find at least four others.

You forgot the fact that Jesus was the original feminist. :D

Besides, the Abrahamic faiths are pretty screwy anyways, especially the holy texts. There are eleven Commandments not ten (the extra commandment being "Thou shalt not be an ignorant fool in the name of thy Lord") and there was a verse somewhere in there that siad "If thou blow stuff up in My name, I shall smite thy idiotic arse." It got edited out.


Yeah I think those passages are found in the Book of Common Sense, which, sadly, appears to have been lost in history.

...another religous thread

Yeah I think those passages are found in the Book of Common Sense, which, sadly, appears to have been lost in history.

Ah, that was it! I'm sure it's hidden around the Vatican somewhere... now if only I can somehow become Pope... even though I am an agnostic 14 year old girl... :D

Nice to know we have folks right here on Earth who consider themselves morally superior to even the concept of an omniscient being.

Sorry guys, but that's damn arrogant.
Hehe, the arrogance!

I say, "I think the God described by the Abrahamic religious is a bully," and this is automatically equated to a rejection of "the concept of an omnicient being." Wow. Because, of course, there is no God save theirs.

Newsflash, O Ostrich-like Christians: there are other gods among the many peoples of this world. The concept of an omnicient God predates Christianity by thousands of years. The fact that I reject YOUR God as a two-dimensional authoritarian caricature does not mean that I would reject worship of any omnicient being, nor does it mean that I reject the possibility that an omnicient being may exist.

Nice to know we have folks right here on Earth who consider themselves morally superior to even the concept of an omniscient being.

Sorry guys, but that's damn arrogant.
Omniscience requires universal participation. If God exists then I am a part of it. It is not arrogant to say that God and I are codependant, just as it is not arrogant for any human being to claim equal participation in the whole rather than functioning as a mere subordinate.

Oh yeah, and your title and OP are clashing. You say you dislike most religions, but I don't think Abrahamic religions are 'most' religion. I mean, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam... I'm sure I can find at least four others.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Jainism (or whatever it's called), Sikhism (or is that too close to Hinduism?), Paganism, Wicca... seven.

And no, Scientology does not count as a religion.

Hehe, the arrogance!

I say, "I think the God described by the Abrahamic religious is a bully," and this is automatically equated to a rejection of "the concept of an omnicient being." Wow. Because, of course, there is no God save theirs.

Newsflash, O Ostrich-like Christians: there are other gods among the many peoples of this world. The concept of an omnicient God predates Christianity by thousands of years. The fact that I reject YOUR God as a two-dimensional authoritarian caricature does not mean that I would reject any ominicient being, nor does it mean that I reject the possibility that an omnicient being may exist.

I have a query linked to this. Let us take, for the moment, that the idea of 'God' is true, but we do not know which God it is - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. Now, most religious people believe that when they die, their Heaven will be their Heaven - Christians believe in a Christian Heaven etc. Now, if we only take the three main religions, thats a hell of a lot of people, all believeing their their God and their Heaven is right.

So...which one is it? Are the Christians right? The Muslims? The Jewish? What happens to the other two groups if one is right? Do they join with their Satan and defy God? Or is there perhaps only one 'God' that has many faces? And what would happen in that situation?

Ah, that was it! I'm sure it's hidden around the Vatican somewhere... now if only I can somehow become Pope... even though I am an agnostic 14 year old girl... :D

You've got a shot. ;)

I have a query linked to this. Let us take, for the moment, that the idea of 'God' is true, but we do not know which God it is - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. Now, most religious people believe that when they die, their Heaven will be their Heaven - Christians believe in a Christian Heaven etc. Now, if we only take the three main religions, thats a hell of a lot of people, all believeing their their God and their Heaven is right.

So...which one is it? Are the Christians right? The Muslims? The Jewish? What happens to the other two groups if one is right? Do they join with their Satan and defy God? Or is there perhaps only one 'God' that has many faces? And what would happen in that situation?
This is the classical response to Pascal's Wager. Even if we accept, on faith, that a human will be better off if s/he worships God, we're still left in a situation where we have no way of knowing which of the many Gods is the real God. Some religions put for wishy-washy blather about how all Gods are a face of the One God, but why should we pay any more attention to them than we do to the religions which insist that God is jealous and vengeful?

You've got a shot. ;)

Yeah, I can just pretend to be a guy... :)

Or you can do it LG, you're close enough to being a god anyways. :D

I say, "I think the God described by the Abrahamic religious is a bully," and this is automatically equated to a rejection of "the concept of an omnicient being." Wow. Because, of course, there is no God save theirs.


Bottle, you know how much I love ya,

But sadly, you've already revealed yourself. You did not, in fact, say "I think the God described by the Abrahamic religious is a bully." What you said was "I still would never remotely consider debasing myself by worshipping such a pathetic bully."

Now, if that's what you MEANT, then great. All set.

See, the difference is that one is a statement of opinion. The other is inherently arrogant, because by making that statement you're taking a position of having a better knowledge and understanding of morality and goodness than the being you're refering to. Why is it arrogant? Because the being in question is understood to be omniscient.

omniscient-adj. All Knowing

See where this is going?

Now, the sarcasm at the end of your reply, not sure what that's about. I never said anything like that but then, why let facts get in the way of a good rant?

;)

This is the classical response to Pascal's Wager. Even if we accept, on faith, that a human will be better off if s/he worships God, we're still left in a situation where we have no way of knowing which of the many Gods is the real God. Some religions put for wishy-washy blather about how all Gods are a face of the One God, but why should we pay any more attention to them than we do to the religions which insist that God is jealous and vengeful?

This is why I'm an atheist. Either there is no God, in which case I'm safe. Or there is one God who is going to piss off so many religious people that I won't want any part of it...and he'll probably be too busy trying to stop trillions of religious people killing each other to bother with li'l ol' Atheist me.

Omniscience requires universal participation. If God exists then I am a part of it. It is not arrogant to say that God and I are codependant, just as it is not arrogant for any human being to claim equal participation in the whole rather than functioning as a mere subordinate.

...

Sleep it off ;)

You've got a shot. ;)
You sure do! Don't nobody forget about Pope Joan!

As the story goes, there was a very talented woman who, dressed as a man, became notary to the Curia, then cardinal, and finally pope. Her gender was not discovered until she gave birth to a child (or miscarried, according to some accounts) during a procession from St. Peter's to the Lateran.

You sure do! Don't nobody forget about Pope Joan!

As the story goes, there was a very talented woman who, dressed as a man, became notary to the Curia, then cardinal, and finally pope. Her gender was not discovered until she gave birth to a child (or miscarried, according to some accounts) during a procession from St. Peter's to the Lateran.
Bad timing eh? Wonder how a pregnant woman could pass for a man?

I have a query linked to this. Let us take, for the moment, that the idea of 'God' is true, but we do not know which God it is - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. Now, most religious people believe that when they die, their Heaven will be their Heaven - Christians believe in a Christian Heaven etc. Now, if we only take the three main religions, thats a hell of a lot of people, all believeing their their God and their Heaven is right.

So...which one is it? Are the Christians right? The Muslims? The Jewish? What happens to the other two groups if one is right? Do they join with their Satan and defy God? Or is there perhaps only one 'God' that has many faces? And what would happen in that situation?

Consider the attributes of God, as understood by those who follow Him, regardless of what religion, exactly. (Limited to Abrahamic religions, in keeping with the theme of the tread.)

God is universally accepted as a God of justice. Given that He would be a just God, and that He knows the heart of each person, then those people who have done their best to follow Him according to their understanding are going to be judged accordingly.

Yeah, I can just pretend to be a guy... :)

Or you can do it LG, you're close enough to being a god anyways. :D

My resume is on file. :)

You sure do! Don't nobody forget about Pope Joan!

As the story goes, there was a very talented woman who, dressed as a man, became notary to the Curia, then cardinal, and finally pope. Her gender was not discovered until she gave birth to a child (or miscarried, according to some accounts) during a procession from St. Peter's to the Lateran.

:eek: Really? I guess I do have a shot then... :D

Then I can re-edit the Bible so it can be revealed in its entirety, and condemn Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, Jerry Falliwell, and George Bush to Hell. :D

Bottle, you know how much I love ya,

But sadly, you've already revealed yourself. You did not, in fact, say "I think the God described by the Abrahamic religious is a bully." What you said was "I still would never remotely consider debasing myself by worshipping such a pathetic bully."

Now, if that's what you MEANT, then great. All set.

I meant what I said. I specified the God to whom I was referring. It's okay that you misinterpretted what I wrote; you have an emotional investment in the subject, and I was very blunt in the words I chose. It could happen to anybody. Just be a bit more careful in the future.


See, the difference is that one is a statement of opinion. The other is inherently arrogant, because by making that statement you're taking a position of having a better knowledge and understanding of morality and goodness than the being you're refering to.

Morality is relative. My morality is defined by what I know, and cannot be defined any other way. What other beings may know is irrelevant to my moral judgment. Whether or not my morality happens to match up with an omnicient being's morality is beside the point. I never claimed that my morality was "higher" than anybody else's.

Remember: others may be arrogant enough to believe in an objective morality, but I am not. Don't project other people's flaws onto me...I've got plenty of my own! :)

I have a query linked to this. Let us take, for the moment, that the idea of 'God' is true, but we do not know which God it is - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. Now, most religious people believe that when they die, their Heaven will be their Heaven - Christians believe in a Christian Heaven etc. Now, if we only take the three main religions, thats a hell of a lot of people, all believeing their their God and their Heaven is right.

So...which one is it? Are the Christians right? The Muslims? The Jewish? What happens to the other two groups if one is right? Do they join with their Satan and defy God? Or is there perhaps only one 'God' that has many faces? And what would happen in that situation?
Asking the wrong people, I think. Even many of us who acknowledge some form of theism feel the notion of heaven as it exists now to be a mistake.

Bad timing eh? Wonder how a pregnant woman could pass for a man?

Beer belly.

...

Sleep it off ;)
Sleep what off? 0_o

:eek: Really? I guess I do have a shot then... :D

Then I can re-edit the Bible so it can be revealed in its entirety, and condemn Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, Jerry Falliwell, and George Bush to Hell. :D
Hey, Thomas Jefferson did it. Why not you?

I meant what I said. I specified the God to whom I was referring. It's okay that you misinterpretted what I wrote; you have an emotional investment in the subject, and I was very blunt in the words I chose. It could happen to anybody. Just be a bit more careful in the future.


I take you at your word. Just for the record, it wasn't emotion. :p


Morality is relative. My morality is defined by what I know, and cannot be defined any other way. What other beings may know is irrelevant to my moral judgment. Whether or not my morality happens to match up with an omnicient being's morality is beside the point. I never claimed that my morality was "higher" than anybody else's.


That is where you and I differ. It's a matter of worldview, I suppose.


Remember: others may be arrogant enough to believe in an objective morality, but I am not.

What would make such a person arrogant?


Don't project other people's flaws onto me...I've got plenty of my own! :)
Fair 'nuff

Hey, Thomas Jefferson did it. Why not you?

Thomas Jefferson became Pope?

:confused:

What do you mean, "Thomas Jefferson did it"?

Thomas Jefferson became Pope?

:confused:

What do you mean, "Thomas Jefferson did it"?
Lol, no, he re-wrote the Bible! The Jefferson Bible is actually pretty cool...he cut out most of the fairytale stuff and stuck with the philosophy and the important lessons. You don't waste time on crap like virgin births or magical zombies. Instead, you focus on the "be respectful" and "treat others as you would be treated" messages. It's not too bad, all things considered.

Lol, no, he re-wrote the Bible! The Jefferson Bible is actually pretty cool...he cut out most of the fairytale stuff and stuck with the philosophy and the important lessons. You don't waste time on crap like virgin births or magical zombies. Instead, you focus on the "be respectful" and "treat others as you would be treated" messages. It's not too bad, all things considered.

Oh, okay... :D Awesome.

This is mainly directed at the Abrahamic religions. I got nothing against normal religious people, but I honestly can't see how people can believe in and worship such authoritarian deities. IMO, no deity that was that uptight and fascist could really exist, and if they do, they're not worthy of worship.

Just my two cents. Anybody feel the same?

Hell yes. I don't believe in God from a logical standpoint, but if one did exist I'd go to hell anyway - fuck that fascist pigdog. I'll burn before I sacrifice my integrity to grovel before an authoritarian irrationalist.

Hell yes. I don't believe in God from a logical standpoint, but if one did exist I'd go to hell anyway - fuck that fascist pigdog. I'll burn before I sacrifice my integrity to grovel before an authoritarian irrationalist.
I believe one exists somewhere, but it's not the Abrahamic God... a God/Goddess would be much less authoritarian than that, a lot more acccepting. How can a God create certain people and not love them? That's kind of what turned me off to Christianity- the fact that their God did not appear to like gays or women but everyone still said he was a "loving" God... doesn't seem like that in the OT, now does it?

Hence, I am agnostic. I have no problem with atheism and never really did, but I still find the atheist viewpoint a bit scary and disappointing.