NationStates Jolt Archive


US Ego=Physics?

The Aeson
17-08-2006, 20:43
Can this machine rescue physics?

Pay attention to that, it's important.

-- When the world's biggest particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider, opens next year near Geneva, the focal point of the high-energy physics world will shift from U.S. soil for the first time in half a century.

AHH! Switzerland will have a bigger d... particle accelerator!

But America's brightest are busy devising a rescue plan.

Why is rescue even necessary?

In April, a panel of U.S. science and business leaders presented a bold comeback strategy: to build the biggest particle accelerator yet, a multibillion-dollar, 19-mile-long piece of mega-machinery called the International Linear Collider (ILC) that can smash particles together at near light speed.

Although that does sound cool.

Detractors in the physics community say a push for the ILC could smother less glamorous projects. And the last time the U.S. took on a science research project of this scope -- flash back to the Superconducting Super Collider, circa 1993 -- Congress canceled it partway through construction and shifted most of the funds to other areas.

Bitter memories of the SSC's demise and the ensuing money crunch still linger.

But not pursuing the ILC, the National Research Council panel argues, could prove devastating. "It would mean giving up on the most fundamental area of science there is," says Harold Shapiro, president emeritus of Princeton University and chair of the panel.

The ILC will collide together electrons and positrons (fundamental particles with no constituent parts), enabling physicists to fully explore the kind of brain-bruising questions that would keep even Einstein up at night.

Sure, we believe "dark matter" makes up most of the universe, but what the heck is it? Supersymmetric particles, or something else? While we're at it, how did the universe begin? How will it evolve? Does it have 10 dimensions? Eleven dimensions? More?

Although Switzerland's Large Hadron Collider, or LHC, will certainly chip away at these questions as it smashes protons together, scientists will need the more precise measurements of the ILC to fully answer them. Whereas the LHC might prove, say, the existence of the famed Higgs boson -- the so-called God particle that gives matter its mass -- the cleaner collisions at the ILC would let scientists figure out how the elusive particle actually works.

Aside from solving some of nature's toughest puzzles, the panel's report concludes that hosting one of history's most ambitious physics experiments will draw talent to the U.S. from all over the globe, offer more opportunities to U.S. researchers, and inspire American kids to take up careers in science.

All good things. Yet at what cost?

The panel suggests that the U.S. spend $500 million over the next five years simply researching the technology required to build the ILC -- a mere $30 million less than the total U.S. contribution to the entire LHC project. (Because the host for the ILC will be chosen by a multinational panel, a kind of International Olympic Committee for physics, such a nicety should put the U.S. in a strong position to bid for it.) The current estimate for the whole shebang: $12 billion, with the host country probably picking up 50 percent of the tab.

Norman Augustine, a former chair of Lockheed Martin and a member of the panel, says the initial half-billion-dollar investment, at least, is a must. "The U.S. has from day one been the global leader of the field," he explains. "If we miss the ILC, that will be tantamount to folding our hand."

And the rest of the article. Why does Switzerland having a bigger d... particle accelerator mean no more physics for the US? And even if it does, why does no more physics for the US mean physics needs rescuing?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/08/17/collider/index.html
Iztatepopotla
17-08-2006, 20:46
Bah! Always bigger and bigger particle accelerators. I want a particle accelerator I can carry around with me, dammit! Just imagine the face of my oponents when a high energy beam of protons hits them between the eyes.
Andaluciae
17-08-2006, 20:47
Big toys...*drools*
The Aeson
17-08-2006, 20:51
Bah! Always bigger and bigger particle accelerators. I want a particle accelerator I can carry around with me, dammit! Just imagine the face of my oponents when a high energy beam of protons hits them between the eyes.

Nah. The protons just sort of amble about in the hand sized ones.
Super-power
17-08-2006, 20:52
It's not the size of your d...erm, particle accelerator that matters, its what you do with it ;)
The Squeaky Rat
17-08-2006, 20:55
Can this machine rescue physics?

Pay attention to that, it's important.

-- When the world's biggest particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider, opens next year near Geneva, the focal point of the high-energy physics orld will shift from U.S. soil for the first time in half a century.
AHH! Switzerland will have a bigger d... particle accelerator!

Eeehm... CERN has been around for quite a while. Before the world wide web even. Which was actually devised there...
The Aeson
17-08-2006, 20:56
Eeehm... CERN has been around for quite a while. Before the world wide web even. Which was actually devised there...

*shrug*

The article's recent.
Ifreann
17-08-2006, 21:05
Eeehm... CERN has been around for quite a while. Before the world wide web even. Which was actually devised there...
I remember something from a time line of the world wide web.
CERN invents the world wide web. Suggests someone invent an internet browser to surf it with.
Tzorsland
17-08-2006, 21:21
Bah humbug. I have to go through a lot of Google Fu, but the focus of high energy physics has been going back and forth from US and Europe for quite some time now. Such is the nature of life and such is the quest for bigger and better accelerators.

And we have also folded our hands a number of times in the past. The ISABELLE project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISABELLE) is a good example of this. "In July, 1983, the U.S. Department of Energy cancelled the ISABELLE project after spending more than US$200 million on it. Cancellation of ISABELLE accelerated the United States fall from dominance in high energy physics and proved a harbinger for the much more costly cancellation of the Superconducting Supercollider in October, 1993."

Fortunately "After years of planning and development, parts of the tunnel, experimental hall and magnet infrastructure built for ISABELLE were salvaged and reused by the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider (RHIC), a US$617 million joint project of the U.S. Department of Energy and National Science Foundation which was approved in 1991 and began operation in 2000."

A look at the list of accelerators in particle physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accelerators_in_particle_physics) clearly shows a number of important toys belonging to the French CERN. The big thing is that it's going to be a major replacement for BNL's RHIC, which is a big whoop anyway, because BNL's big money is a little accelerator called the National Synchrotron Light Source (http://www.nsls.bnl.gov/) which is used by a number of indstries and universities.
Wallonochia
17-08-2006, 22:10
A friend of mine just got back to the States from working on something at CERN, it may be that. He's a physicist who works for Berkely, so it would follow.
Call to power
17-08-2006, 22:28
so the revolutionary idea is to have a bigger toy with no new gadgets just the fact that its bigger not even some weird new way of doing things

Erm…lets hope they never go into the toy industry mind you I’m guessing this is the same kind of physicists that wanted to build the biggest nuke
Kibolonia
17-08-2006, 22:36
It's worth noting that it's not just ego. Aside from the obvious benefits of a highly skilled work force and the lessons learned that can be applied to other large projects, there are physics questions the LHC is expected to be unable to answer, questions that would require a newer more powerful device. A device that picks up where it leaves off, spreading the capital intensive burden around, as well as the attendant benefits, makes a lot of sense.
Dontgonearthere
17-08-2006, 22:39
Bah! Always bigger and bigger particle accelerators. I want a particle accelerator I can carry around with me, dammit! Just imagine the face of my oponents when a high energy beam of protons hits them between the eyes.
"This is the FXG-9800 Linear Accelerator, and it can blast a stream of protons through your head fast enough to turn your pitiful little brain into a black hole. Now, sometimes it randomy explodes, and sometimes it doesnt, but ask yourself, are you feeling lucky, punk?"

Its just not the same ;)


As to the topic at hand...I think a bit of competition is good for the US, after all, its sort of the basis of capitolism that 'competition = progress'.
The Aeson
17-08-2006, 22:39
It's worth noting that it's not just ego. Aside from the obvious benefits of a highly skilled work force and the lessons learned that can be applied to other large projects, there are physics questions the LHC is expected to be unable to answer, questions that would require a newer more powerful device. A device that picks up where it leaves off, spreading the capital intensive burden around, as well as the attendant benefits, makes a lot of sense.

Be that as it may, the overall impression given by the article is that they're building this one mainly because the Swiss are building one.
Call to power
17-08-2006, 22:42
It's worth noting that it's not just ego. Aside from the obvious benefits of a highly skilled work force and the lessons learned that can be applied to other large projects, there are physics questions the LHC is expected to be unable to answer, questions that would require a newer more powerful device. A device that picks up where it leaves off, spreading the capital intensive burden around, as well as the attendant benefits, makes a lot of sense.

so instead of investing in the development that would negate the need to build bigger and bigger toys most likely allowing more to be learnt we’ve gone for the option of building a bigger toy so that we can smoosh particles more what exactly are we going to learn from this other than who can pore the most money down the drain?
Dontgonearthere
17-08-2006, 22:49
so instead of investing in the development that would negate the need to build bigger and bigger toys most likely allowing more to be learnt we’ve gone for the option of building a bigger toy so that we can smoosh particles more what exactly are we going to learn from this other than who can pore the most money down the drain?
Exactly.
I personally vote that all that money should go to building a giant pyramid so those damn Egyptians will stop being so snooty about it.
The Aeson
17-08-2006, 22:55
Exactly.
I personally vote that all that money should go to building a giant pyramid so those damn Egyptians will stop being so snooty about it.

How about a particle accelerating pyramid?
Dontgonearthere
17-08-2006, 22:58
How about a particle accelerating pyramid?
Well...it'll keep your razors sharp, does that count?
Kibolonia
17-08-2006, 23:09
The reason the article gives that impression is because journalism is dead, journalists are hack losers too ugly for prostitution, too unpopular for politics, and too unfocused to write a book. They've completely abdicated any responsiblity for informing, prefering to entertain (badly), and as The Daily Show tragically reminds us every night, comedians are better at both.

so instead of investing in the development that would negate the need to build bigger and bigger toys most likely allowing more to be learnt we’ve gone for the option of building a bigger toy so that we can smoosh particles more what exactly are we going to learn from this other than who can pore the most money down the drain?
This is the worst most ignorant viewpoint that exists in the world. Where do you think all this wonderful wealth of a post-industrial information economy comes from? FUNDEMENTAL RESEARCH. The future 50 years hence is built on the primordial explorations today.

But you want one example? Projects like this can provide the capital intensive first development of technologies that are later miniturized and ultimately become indespensible and ubiquitious features of our lives. How about a home medical scanner. Hospital imagining you can carry in your pocket. Makes a digital thermometer seem kind of like a burning stick, doesn't it?

Our great fortune is that when your viewpoint has been pitted against opportunities for advancement in the past it has so often failed. Far from convenient personal medical imaging being the most interesting fruit, it's simply one I can imagine. If history is our guide, what any of us can imagine is likely trival compared to the true wealth those who come after us will reap from our foresight. Challenging fundemental research takes us farther faster better than any other endeavor. Abandoning the practice which rewards us so richly for so little is insane.
Dontgonearthere
17-08-2006, 23:40
The reason the article gives that impression is because journalism is dead, journalists are hack losers too ugly for prostitution, too unpopular for politics, and too unfocused to write a book. They've completely abdicated any responsiblity for informing, prefering to entertain (badly), and as The Daily Show tragically reminds us every night, comedians are better at both.


This is the worst most ignorant viewpoint that exists in the world. Where do you think all this wonderful wealth of a post-industrial information economy comes from? FUNDEMENTAL RESEARCH. The future 50 years hence is built on the primordial explorations today.

But you want one example? Projects like this can provide the capital intensive first development of technologies that are later miniturized and ultimately become indespensible and ubiquitious features of our lives. How about a home medical scanner. Hospital imagining you can carry in your pocket. Makes a digital thermometer seem kind of like a burning stick, doesn't it?

Our great fortune is that when your viewpoint has been pitted against opportunities for advancement in the past it has so often failed. Far from convenient personal medical imaging being the most interesting fruit, it's simply one I can imagine. If history is our guide, what any of us can imagine is likely trival compared to the true wealth those who come after us will reap from our foresight. Challenging fundemental research takes us farther faster better than any other endeavor. Abandoning the practice which rewards us so richly for so little is insane.
I think my way of saying this was more effecient ;)