NationStates Jolt Archive

I was talking to a friend a few days back about her specific 'homeschool theory' and I was shocked to find out (not really shocked so much as disgusted) that her 13 year old son can not read. Let me spell this out for you, not "he can't read well" but the kid can't read. She says to me "he knows most of his alphabet, but not really like the phonics, I just don't want to push it on him if he isn't interested".

Now, all of my huge objections to her "parenting style" aside, isn't it abnormal for a teenager to be not only functionally illiterate, but actually illiterate?

We then got into this discussion about the pressure to be "normal". Now, I will be the first to admit my kids are abnormal, very abnormal. I could argue that they are "abnormal" in a good way, but that would probably be a value statement based on my own mommy bias.

Anyway, she asks me "what's normal? and why is it important for your kids to be normal?"

I spent most of my teen years trying not to be "average" or normal, or even do what people thought I should, there was this big huge "don't be part of the norm" thing about me.

So, I have been thinking "what is normal? and why is it important to me?"

educationally, I hate to be like "well, that's not normal" because I know kids are all different, but really, I have a huge problem with the kid not reading, I wonder if it's because (as she claims) I have been conditioned to believe that people start reading at 5, or if I am actually worried about the kid, or if I am hung up on "normal".

then I start to think about other areas of life, I am much more comfortable with saying that sexual practices are "fine" even if they are out of the norm, it makes no sense to me why someone would call someone else's sexual activities "deviant" when they probably do something likewise "abnormal" on their own, I am very comfortable with the idea of "whatever consenting adults do....." but why is it that way for sex and not for education?

My husband thinks it has to do with the 13 year old being a kid, and therefore can not consent to being ignorant or something (didn't quite catch it)

Then I think "what if normal is just average? what if it's not even right?" it was normal for a long time for people to have slaves, that doesn't make it right.

What about all the "shoulds", usually I don't like that word......or the sentence that goes with it

"you should have....blah blah blah"

because I feel like people are trying to replace my judgement with their own, you know since they are, but it just seems wrong.... who made up the shoulds? the supposed to's? normal?

So, what's your take on it? Is there normal? Is it good? What amount of abnormality is acceptable? How are you abnormal? would you change that about yourself if you could?

yes, but it's okay if some aren't normal

Some degree of adherence to normality are necessary for a society to stick together.

This case of a 13 year old who can't read is shocking and just goes to show what a bad idea home-schooling usually is.

Either..
1)Idiot
2)Garbage Collector of the future
3)He is banking on some kick arse Social services in the future...
*No offence to garbage collectors...

This case of a 13 year old who can't read is shocking and just goes to show what a bad idea home-schooling usually is.
A 13-year old who can't read is NOT typical of homeschooling. Most studies show that homeschooled children are 2 to 3 grade levels ahead of their peers in public school, and the gap widens after 5th grade.

Either..
1)Idiot
2)Garbage Collector of the future
3)He is banking on some kick arse Social services in the future...
*No offence to garbage collectors...
she unschools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling), that's not the point of the thred though.

In statistics, the 'sample average' is a value that no member of of the population may have.

I find this analogy transfers well into human behavior - there is no single 'average' person out there, every individual has distinguishing characteristics.

In statistics, the 'sample average' is a value that no member of of the population may have.

I find this analogy transfers well into human behavior - there is no single 'average' person out there, every individual has distinguishing characteristics.
ah, but what amount of abnormality is acceptable?

I think you've just described a case of border line child abuse. And illiteracy at 13, I think, has crossed the line. I propose that it is child abuse through neglect.

I suggest you report it, you've already talked to her and tried to show her the error of her ways in regards to literacy and how much the boy should have learned already and not only did she fail to act on your observation, she says she intends to continue to neglect the boy's education needs.

Literacy is NOT a standard of 'normal' or abnormal behavior, it is a level of education standard, the onus is on the parent/guardian to see the child gets an education. If they were in a public school and teachers were passing 13 year old illiterates, I would suggest they be fired and held accountable. What you have described tells us that this 13 year old is only now ready for 1st grade... that's abuse via neglect. Someone needs to intervene before it's too late, if it's not already.

In this case, a kid at 13 should have some reading ability. She or he will be very disadvantaged in the future. In a society where education of some sort is key to getting ahead, not being able to read at 13 is bad.

It's fine not being "normal", but not the disadvantage of your kids who will pay the price if the experiment goes wrong.

The kid has to function, and to function he has to read. Even though the McDs register has pictures on it, you still have to read a little. This isn't fucking piano lessons or baseball practice, your 'shoulds' are informed by existing in a world that requires people to be able to read to function, not some airy notion about not forcing some kid to do something he doesn't want to. He's 13, he has no way of concieving of the importance of being able to read, or how long it takes to be functional and how much ground he's going to have to make up if he doesn't do it now.

This isn't a guess. We know that when you're young it's easier to aquire those skills. That's why we do it, not because everyone else does it-we do it because that's the best time. You're concerned not because thats the normal thing to do, you're concerned because this kids being seriously fucked by someone who doesn't know what the hell she's doing.

Don't be backed off by musing about 'normality.' This is going to be a serious problem for this kid. Let him wear pylons for hats and tie bike horns to his feet if he wants abnormality, this reading shit is serious.

Well, there's manners, mores, and traditions that fit most societies. The society seems to be better off when people are more homogeneous, but that's a lot more dull than when there are some deviants around.

I think you've just described a case of border line child abuse. And illiteracy at 13, I think, has crossed the line. I propose that it is child abuse through neglect.

I suggest you report it, you've already talked to her and tried to show her the error of her ways in regards to literacy and how much the boy should have learned already and not only did she fail to act on your observation, she says she intends to continue to neglect the boy's education needs.

Literacy is NOT a standard of 'normal' or abnormal behavior, it is a level of education standard, the onus is on the parent/guardian to see the child gets an education. If they were in a public school and teachers were passing 13 year old illiterates, I would suggest they be fired and held accountable. What you have described tells us that this 13 year old is only now ready for 1st grade... that's abuse via neglect. Someone needs to intervene before it's too late, if it's not already.

In my state the department of child services can not act on "educational neglect", if he were being physically harmed they could do something, otherwise they can not. (I called them the day we had the discussion) They have no legal recourse to enter the house, interview the child, or even make him go to public school.

A 13-year old who can't read is NOT typical of homeschooling. Most studies show that homeschooled children are 2 to 3 grade levels ahead of their peers in public school, and the gap widens after 5th grade.
Sorry. I knew that illiterate teens wasn't typical but I didn't know that most were that good! (Or that US public schools were that bad!)

I was talking to a friend a few days back about her specific 'homeschool theory' and I was shocked to find out (not really shocked so much as disgusted) that her 13 year old son can not read. Let me spell this out for you, not "he can't read well" but the kid can't read. She says to me "he knows most of his alphabet, but not really like the phonics, I just don't want to push it on him if he isn't interested".

*snipped for length*

...but really, I have a huge problem with the kid not reading, I wonder if it's because (as she claims) I have been conditioned to believe that people start reading at 5, or if I am actually worried about the kid, or if I am hung up on "normal".

The problem with an illiterate 13 year old is not that he is "abnormal." It is that he lacks a critical skill that is pretty much required for functioning in our society. The problem is not that he is "different," it is that his parents have decided to deny him options that he otherwise might have, by being too lazy to educate him.

If something isn't done, and quickly, this young man won't have the option of going to college if he chooses to do so. He won't have the option of holding down any serious skilled job. He will face a very narrow, restricted path in life, all because his parents couldn't be troubled to teach him one of the most fundamental skills in our culture.

Lots of people don't enjoy reading or writing for fun. Lots of people aren't interested in pursuing higher education. That's perfectly fine. However, a good parent would want to provide their child with OPTIONS. What if this young man decides he does want to go to college? Well, his parents have decided that he will not have that option. His parents aren't encouraging individuality; quite the opposite. They are ensuring that their child will have very few opportunities to choose his individual path in life.


then I start to think about other areas of life, I am much more comfortable with saying that sexual practices are "fine" even if they are out of the norm, it makes no sense to me why someone would call someone else's sexual activities "deviant" when they probably do something likewise "abnormal" on their own, I am very comfortable with the idea of "whatever consenting adults do....." but why is it that way for sex and not for education?

Last I checked, a 13 year old was not a consenting adult. Adults are not allowed to do whatever they want with their children sexually, are they?


My husband thinks it has to do with the 13 year old being a kid, and therefore can not consent to being ignorant or something (didn't quite catch it)

The entire point of having parents is to have big peope around who will help little people make fewer bad decisions. Young people aren't stupid, but they are inexperienced, and parents are supposed to represent voices of greater experience who help their kids avoid as many pitfalls as possible.

A good parent wants to give their children as many tools as possible, to help them be able to deal with what the world throws at them. Any parent who thinks their kids is going to be able to function successfully without being able to read is...well, words fail me. Even at 13, the number of things that kid is missing out on is just staggering. It is grossly irresponsible of his parents to allow this to continue.


Then I think "what if normal is just average? what if it's not even right?" it was normal for a long time for people to have slaves, that doesn't make it right.

What about all the "shoulds", usually I don't like that word......or the sentence that goes with it

"you should have....blah blah blah"

because I feel like people are trying to replace my judgement with their own, you know since they are, but it just seems wrong.... who made up the shoulds? the supposed to's? normal?

So, what's your take on it? Is there normal? Is it good? What amount of abnormality is acceptable? How are you abnormal? would you change that about yourself if you could?
This isn't about being "abnormal" at all. It's perfectly normal for a 13 year old to not want to spend time at school. It's perfectly normal for a 13 year old to not want to read stuff. It's perfectly normal for a lazy and irresponsible adult to generate bullshit justifications for their own failures.

If this kid's parents really wanted him to have the freedom to be the individual he wants, they wouldn't be shackling him with illiteracy. They wouldn't be dooming him to a very set script for his life. They wouldn't be robbing him of options with every passing day.

In this case, a kid at 13 should have some reading ability. She or he will be very disadvantaged in the future. In a society where education of some sort is key to getting ahead, not being able to read at 13 is bad.

It's fine not being "normal", but not the disadvantage of your kids who will pay the price if the experiment goes wrong.
see that was my take on it, I am 99% sure she attacked me because she knows I am right, but it did start an interesting conversation with my husband over dinner last night (he agrees with me, but is really good at debateing the "other side")

Sorry. I knew that illiterate teens wasn't typical but I didn't know that most were that good! (Or that US public schools were that bad!)
it's a combo of them being "that good" and the schools being pretty bad (in most areas)

interesting reading for you. (http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/) ;)

I think you should have the illiterate teen play some kind of knowledge game against your four-year-old.

My husband thinks it has to do with the 13 year old being a kid, and therefore can not consent to being ignorant or something (didn't quite catch it)


So, what's your take on it? Is there normal? Is it good? What amount of abnormality is acceptable? How are you abnormal? would you change that about yourself if you could?
I agree with your husband. Normal is something we are used to. Being abnormal is perfectly fine if it is your own decision (and it's not hurting others blaa blaa).

I don't think I'm abnormal. Someone might think otherwise but then her/his idea of normality is different than mine.

I am happily abnormal. I pick up the newspapers and I read CNN and I think to myself, "That is normal. Do I really want to be like that?" The answer is No. I want to be like me; delightfully abnormal.

THe issue with a 13 year old is not the normality or abnormality of knowing how to read at that age, it's the VALUE of it. It's the single most valuable skill we human beings possess. Without literacy, how is this child supposed to find and learn what DOES interest him? HOw is he supposed to find his niche? Is this poor kid's mother really of the mentality that, 'The world needs ditch diggers too'? What kind of caring parent would willingly resign her child to a fate like that?

THe child's decision to be 'normal' or 'abnormal' only comes into play if he has the option to choose what he wants to be and how he wants to get there. Those options are narrowed almost out of existence without knowing how to read.

I'd also like to point out that while I have decided not to home school my children, but to tutor them in addition to public schooling, I greatly respect home schooling. This woman is damaging the reputation of it. She's becoming an example of everything wrong with it, and providing ammuniton to the enemies of home schooling. Ammunition that will be used against people who school their children well and thoroughly. Like you. :(

I think you should have the illiterate teen play some kind of knowledge game against your four-year-old.
yeah, I could set them down for trivial pursuit.

My next move is that I am going to take him to breakfast in about an hour and talk to him about reading, and the literacy program at my church, if he wants to go I doubt she would stop him, and it's free, and I will take him and pick him up.

I hope he takes me up on my offer.

see that was my take on it, I am 99% sure she attacked me because she knows I am right, but it did start an interesting conversation with my husband over dinner last night (he agrees with me, but is really good at debateing the "other side")

My grandparents didn't have any sort of uni degrees, but me, my mother, my father and my brother all went to uni. I'm Chinese and traditionally the more educated you are, the more power you have over the "uneducated masses". That's why I'm for education, homeschooling or conventional as long as you get the skills to get ahead in this world.

One other thing; WHat the hell DOES she teach him?!?

I'd also like to point out that while I have decided not to home school my children, but to tutor them in addition to public schooling, I greatly respect home schooling. This woman is damaging the reputation of it. She's becoming an example of everything wrong with it, and providing ammuniton to the enemies of home schooling. Ammunition that will be used against people who school their children well and thoroughly. Like you. :(

yeah, she is a nutcase. I am sorry but it's true.

One other thing; WHat the hell DOES she teach him?!?
he is getting good at stacking (http://www.speedstacks.com/), he can carry on a pretty intelligent conversation, I had no real idea that he couldn't read, but I had only talked to him for a few hours on two occasions. According to her, she reads to him. I think I might be too lazy for that, it just seemed easier to teach my kids to read and tell them "go read that and come back and we will talk about it"

:p

he is getting good at stacking (http://www.speedstacks.com/), he can carry on a pretty intelligent conversation, I had no real idea that he couldn't read, but I had only talked to him for a few hours on two occasions. According to her, she reads to him. I think I might be too lazy for that, it just seemed easier to teach my kids to read and tell them "go read that and come back and we will talk about it"

:p

Well, that's how you learn things - do it ya self!

I am happily abnormal. I pick up the newspapers and I read CNN and I think to myself, "That is normal. Do I really want to be like that?" The answer is No. I want to be like me; delightfully abnormal.

THe issue with a 13 year old is not the normality or abnormality of knowing how to read at that age, it's the VALUE of it. It's the single most valuable skill we human beings possess. Without literacy, how is this child supposed to find and learn what DOES interest him? HOw is he supposed to find his niche? Is this poor kid's mother really of the mentality that, 'The world needs ditch diggers too'? What kind of caring parent would willingly resign her child to a fate like that?

THe child's decision to be 'normal' or 'abnormal' only comes into play if he has the option to choose what he wants to be and how he wants to get there. Those options are narrowed almost out of existence without knowing how to read.

Right on.

It's like if a parent decided not to teach their kid to use the potty, because the kid didn't seem to feel like learning it. Would anybody listen if they were to say, "Oh, my kid just isn't average. He's special. He doesn't want to be just like all the other sheeple who use toilets. You're just being judgmental because it's unusual for a fully-functional 13 year old to be pooping in his trousers, and your sensibilities are too narrow to deal with it."

he is getting good at stacking (http://www.speedstacks.com/), he can carry on a pretty intelligent conversation, I had no real idea that he couldn't read, but I had only talked to him for a few hours on two occasions. According to her, she reads to him. I think I might be too lazy for that, it just seemed easier to teach my kids to read and tell them "go read that and come back and we will talk about it"

:p

...

Stacking.

...

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/eek3.gif

Well, that's.... interesting.

I'd also like to point out that while I have decided not to home school my children, but to tutor them in addition to public schooling, I greatly respect home schooling. This woman is damaging the reputation of it. She's becoming an example of everything wrong with it, and providing ammuniton to the enemies of home schooling. Ammunition that will be used against people who school their children well and thoroughly. Like you. :(
That made me wonder how my kids would turn out if they were homeschooled. I guess it would depend soley on my wife, as I would be the most horrible teacher ever.

Right on.

It's like if a parent decided not to teach their kid to use the potty, because the kid didn't seem to feel like learning it. Would anybody listen if they were to say, "Oh, my kid just isn't average. He's special. He doesn't want to be just like all the other sheeple who use toilets. You're just being judgmental because it's unusual for a fully-functional 13 year old to be pooping in his trousers, and your sensibilities are too narrow to deal with it."
You gotta say that to her, Smunkee.

Well, that's how you learn things - do it ya self!
that's what I thought. I went to public school, but I had read so much before the first grade that I didn't really learn anything new until we started Trig in my sophomore year, I was pretty much self taught, didn't really learn anything at school, other than Trig, Physics, and not to get stuck with a lab partner in Chem that is stupid (still have a chemical burn..........:( )

I am trying to teach my kids how to learn, so that they can pursue whatever they want, I don't see the point in waiting around to do it though, I think the sooner a kid can read, the better chance they have at reading some really cool stuff :p

This is apalling. I think in this case the situation goes beyong being normal and it's more about being functional.

In my state the department of child services can not act on "educational neglect", if he were being physically harmed they could do something, otherwise they can not. (I called them the day we had the discussion) They have no legal recourse to enter the house, interview the child, or even make him go to public school.

That's a sorry situation then...

How do the other adult relations of the child feel about it? If the child has any other adult relations, father, grandparents aunts and uncles etc., what do they think about the child being illiterate? They should team up and address the situation with the Mother, someone has to convey the 'immorality' of the mother's choices at this point. And I intentionally call it immoral, as it is immoral to intentionally harm your own child and she’s harming his future potential.

As to your intended theme of this thread though, about normality for normality’s sake, … We all know that society and community does pressure for normalcy, I think this is a good thing. It’s good for the society, it’s good for the community and nine out of ten times it’s good for the individuals as well. However, as in all good things, moderation is the key to success. Moderation in complying to society’s peer pressure to be normal should also be the ‘normal’ thing to do… :)

Right on.

It's like if a parent decided not to teach their kid to use the potty, because the kid didn't seem to feel like learning it. Would anybody listen if they were to say, "Oh, my kid just isn't average. He's special. He doesn't want to be just like all the other sheeple who use toilets. You're just being judgmental because it's unusual for a fully-functional 13 year old to be pooping in his trousers, and your sensibilities are too narrow to deal with it."
did I fail to mention that her 5 year old still drinks out of a bottle and wears pull-ups (because diapers are too little now)

I have major problems with that......maybe I could use that for child services, the kid is getting some bad diaper rash.

That made me wonder how my kids would turn out if they were homeschooled. I guess it would depend soley on my wife, as I would be the most horrible teacher ever.

I'm an excellent teacher; I have tutored children and adults on numerous subjects.

But just imagine what my children would learn from me. :)

did I fail to mention that her 5 year old still drinks out of a bottle and wears pull-ups (because diapers are too little now)

I have major problems with that......maybe I could use that for child services, the kid is getting some bad diaper rash.
Is this woman a single parent?

did I fail to mention that her 5 year old still drinks out of a bottle and wears pull-ups (because diapers are too little now)

I have major problems with that......maybe I could use that for child services, the kid is getting some bad diaper rash.

:eek: Jesus Christ on a cracker! :eek:

yeah, I could set them down for trivial pursuit.

My next move is that I am going to take him to breakfast in about an hour and talk to him about reading, and the literacy program at my church, if he wants to go I doubt she would stop him, and it's free, and I will take him and pick him up.

I hope he takes me up on my offer.

Good for you, good luck with that.

she unschools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling), that's not the point of the thred though.
Sorry, i read the poll as is this right not is there normal.

Hmmm
Foot in mouth...
:p
Sleeps-I've been promised pleasant dreams...
But me so sick.:(
http://209.85.48.10/3630/189/emo/z.gif

Is this woman a single parent?
no, she has an idiotic husband, and lives in an "intentional community" with the rest of her "church", I know her through a homeschool group that is around here that swaps out books, I am on the list because my kids read too many books for me to be able to keep up financially with it. (her 17 year old does read, but not on a level that he "should")

I'm an excellent teacher; I have tutored children and adults on numerous subjects.

But just imagine what my children would learn from me. :)
My problem is I would nearly always "get it" (except in english, where I never 'got it'). If my kid asked why or how, I wouldn't be able to explain. For me, it made sense as soon as it was explained.

My problem is I would nearly always "get it" (except in english, where I never 'got it'). If my kid asked why or how, I wouldn't be able to explain. For me, it made sense as soon as it was explained.
I have some things like that, when we were learning how to figure percent of a whole, I had to look up about 30 different ways to explain it to the kid, she just wasn't getting it, in my studies I found a way to explain it to her, and also learned a new way to explain it to myself that makes me much more efficient with it.

no, she has an idiotic husband, and lives in an "intentional community" with the rest of her "church", I know her through a homeschool group that is around here that swaps out books, I am on the list because my kids read too many books for me to be able to keep up financially with it. (her 17 year old does read, but not on a level that he "should")
The problems of raising geniuses.:p

no, she has an idiotic husband, and lives in an "intentional community" with the rest of her "church",
In that case, I hope we can continue to identify this boy's PARENTS as the problem, not just his mother. There are two parents failing these children. Educating and caring for these children is as much their father's responsibility as their mother's.

The problems of raising geniuses.:p
I kid you not my 5 year old read 45 books last week (6 of them over 150 pages, the rest shorter 25-30 pages) she can just sit after she gets her homework done and read and read and read and read, until I have to take the book away from her and make her eat, then she goes to read and read and read, until I take the book away from her and make her go to sleep:p We can only check out 12 books at the library at a time, and I use most of those up with her homeschool reading list.

I kid you not my 5 year old read 45 books last week (6 of them over 150 pages, the rest shorter 25-30 pages) she can just sit after she gets her homework done and read and read and read and read, until I have to take the book away from her and make her eat, then she goes to read and read and read, until I take the book away from her and make her go to sleep:p We can only check out 12 books at the library at a time, and I use most of those up with her homeschool reading list.
Wow. The only books I can read without getting bored are math/science text books.

My problem is I would nearly always "get it" (except in english, where I never 'got it'). If my kid asked why or how, I wouldn't be able to explain. For me, it made sense as soon as it was explained.

I'm typically the same way. On the other hand, I HAVE TO 'get it'. I don't memorize. I take awful notes. I have to understand something to learn.

I remember when I was in the Navy, I was having an issue in basic electronics. Specifically, 'special circuits'. I just couldn't wrap my head around it. And it seemed like I was the only one in the class that couldn't. Finally, they brought in a second instructor that tried to explain it to me in a different approach and I understood. ANd everybody else in the class became confused. :p

In that case, I hope we can continue to identify this boy's PARENTS as the problem, not just his mother. There are two parents failing these children. Educating and caring for these children is as much their father's responsibility as their mother's.

Indeed. Absolutely. *nod*

If these so-called parents are part of a "Church", isn't teaching the kids to read more important? If I were a Christian, I'd want my kids to read so they can read a Bible for themselves.

If these so-called parents are part of a "Church", isn't teaching the kids to read more important? If I were a Christian, I'd want my kids to read so they can read a Bible for themselves.
I use the term "church" loosely, basically they all live in trailers out on this guy's land, and the men go to church while the women and children stay home and then the men "bring back the word" to their families.

I say her husband is idiotic because he told her I was a "false prophet" because I invited her to ladies Bible study and told her that her husband could watch the kids.

Wow. The only books I can read without getting bored are math/science text books.
she is reading a lot of history right now, I bought her a cool book about regional expressions and their origin, which prompted her to start a study of US history on her own she said "I want to read what they say and then come talk to you about it, I don't want this to be school yet, I just want to learn it for fun" which is fine with me, I have no problem discussing the civil war over dinner for "fun".

I use the term "church" loosely, basically they all live in trailers out on this guy's land, and the men go to church while the women and children stay home and then the men "bring back the word" to their families.

I say her husband is idiotic because he told her I was a "false prophet" because I invited her to ladies Bible study and told her that her husband could watch the kids.

Those kids were doomed from the start. :(

Those kids were doomed from the start. :(
do you think I could report her for being in a cult? maybe then they would take away the kids...I hate being like "they need to take away the kids" because I feel judgemental, but really..........they need to take away the kids.

I use the term "church" loosely, basically they all live in trailers out on this guy's land, and the men go to church while the women and children stay home and then the men "bring back the word" to their families.

I say her husband is idiotic because he told her I was a "false prophet" because I invited her to ladies Bible study and told her that her husband could watch the kids.

That's sound like "Sect" and not "Church" to me. Control-freak husbands who prefer their wives dumb and stupid.

I'm typically the same way. On the other hand, I HAVE TO 'get it'. I don't memorize. I take awful notes. I have to understand something to learn.

I remember when I was in the Navy, I was having an issue in basic electronics. Specifically, 'special circuits'. I just couldn't wrap my head around it. And it seemed like I was the only one in the class that couldn't. Finally, they brought in a second instructor that tried to explain it to me in a different approach and I understood. ANd everybody else in the class became confused. :p
I most listen to the teacher and follow the teachers notes. I write far too slowly to keep up with notes. I can only do the major points. Though, because I am just following along, I do get sleepy.:p

But it seemsto work for me.

That's sound like "Sect" and not "Church" to me. Control-freak husbands who prefer their wives dumb and stupid.
yep.


and on that note, I have to leave to go pick up the 13 year old now, I am bringing a few books with me, maybe they will inspire him. Wish me luck!

Well that's depressing..

I really don't know if I'm normal or not..

But I can tell you.. I smell really good.

she is reading a lot of history right now, I bought her a cool book about regional expressions and their origin, which prompted her to start a study of US history on her own she said "I want to read what they say and then come talk to you about it, I don't want this to be school yet, I just want to learn it for fun" which is fine with me, I have no problem discussing the civil war over dinner for "fun".
I can read history. I will only read the portions that I care about, which over time could include the entire book. But I prefer my sciences.

I just noticed that I didn't exactly respond to the over-arching topic of the thread. So here goes:

Yes, there is such a thing as "normal" within any given group or culture. Just like how any set of numbers can be averaged together, any given group can be averaged to provide a "norm."

What you, Smunkee, are well aware of is that "normal" does not automatically mean "good" or "healthy."

Many things which are normal are also harmful or counterproductive. You cited a time when slavery was normal, which is a good example. There was a time when it was normal for everybody to smoke. Et cetera.

Many things which are abnormal are healthy or beneficial. Remember, being a genius is abnormal! Being able to run an 8-minute mile is not the norm. Et cetera.

There are also a lot of neutral qualities that may be normal or abnormal. Sexuality is a good example of this. Being heterosexual is the norm, while being homosexual is not the norm, but this doesn't mean heterosexuality is "better" than homosexuality.

Parents should not strive to make their kids "normal" or "abnormal." They should strive to make their kids healthy and capable people.

Many things are normal for a reason: because they work! Potty training your kids, teaching them to read, and getting them regular check-ups with the doctor are all wise decisions that are normal because most people recognize that they're good ideas. You shouldn't do these things BECAUSE they're normal, you should do them because they are good ideas.

do you think I could report her for being in a cult? maybe then they would take away the kids...I hate being like "they need to take away the kids" because I feel judgemental, but really..........they need to take away the kids.

I don't know. But it might be time to inform people who can look into their situation more thoroughly than you can. *nod*

yep.


and on that note, I have to leave to go pick up the 13 year old now, I am bringing a few books with me, maybe they will inspire him. Wish me luck!

Good luck, False Prophet. :)

Well that's depressing..

I really don't know if I'm normal or not..

But I can tell you.. I smell really good.

YAY! :D

I use the term "church" loosely, basically they all live in trailers out on this guy's land, and the men go to church while the women and children stay home and then the men "bring back the word" to their families.

I say her husband is idiotic because he told her I was a "false prophet" because I invited her to ladies Bible study and told her that her husband could watch the kids.
Gosh, is it any surprise, then, that this woman feels unable to put her foot down with her children? Your use of pronouns indicates that her 17 year old and 13 year old are both male, and quite old enough to have internalized the message that women have no authority a male is bound to respect. Small wonder that she is so eager to go along with whatever her boys feel like doing.

It's so funny to me that there are these cultures in which women are utterly stripped of power and authority, yet women are the ones held responsible if their offspring do not behave. Women aren't trusted enough to work outside the home, yet they are trusted with the children. Daddy is too irresponsible to take care of his own children, yet he is obviously qualified to function as the King and High Priest in his household.

And then people act SURPRISED when the kids end up fucked up and ignorant.

I kid you not my 5 year old read 45 books last week (6 of them over 150 pages, the rest shorter 25-30 pages) she can just sit after she gets her homework done and read and read and read and read, until I have to take the book away from her and make her eat, then she goes to read and read and read, until I take the book away from her and make her go to sleep:p We can only check out 12 books at the library at a time, and I use most of those up with her homeschool reading list.
I was like that when I was little. Well, I didn't read as quickly, but I'd read until someone forced me to do something else. Its awesome that your little girl loves to read so much. The one thing I will say is when I was little I read so much cuz I was sad and upset and did not want to deal with reality. That's probably not the case with your little girl, but it is something you might want to look out for.

I was like that when I was little. Well, I didn't read as quickly, but I'd read until someone forced me to do something else. Its awesome that your little girl loves to read so much. The one thing I will say is when I was little I read so much cuz I was sad and upset and did not want to deal with reality. That's probably not the case with your little girl, but it is something you might want to look out for.
I will keep that in mind, I remember reading a lot when I was young because it would keep me from having to "deal with" my home life. I don't think that is the case with my kid, but it's always a good idea to notice their surroundings and make sure they are being taken care of emotionally.

A 13-year old who can't read is NOT typical of homeschooling. Most studies show that homeschooled children are 2 to 3 grade levels ahead of their peers in public school, and the gap widens after 5th grade.


Smunkee, she is guilty of educational neglect. I'd certainly wonder what the hell she is sending in to the authorities as proof that he's following and mastering any sort of curriculum.

She is willingly setting him up for failure in a first-world country in the 21st century by not pushing the issue because he doesn't like it. This is obscene.

I'm glad I got a mention in your poll (lol, you popped my cherry) but the rest of the line doesn't describe how I feel about this issue.

On normality:

Literally speaking, normality is basically the social standard of deviation from the average, in as much as we can quantify behaviour. Thus, while it does exist, it really is something we make up. However, it is a powerful concept, and to dismiss it as "unreal fabrication" is to miss the point; it is precisely because we as a society define what the norm is that there is such pressure not to deviate too far from it in both the individual and the group at large.

It is certainly the case that the vast majority of 13 year old children have a reasonable grasp of the written language. Some have great difficulty with big words, some have vocabularies to contend and surpass many adults, but most are distributed about a point such that they could quite comfortably read the likes of Steinbeck or Orwell, even if they might not grasp the subtleties of the messages conveyed or find the superficial plots particularly interesting (which, incidentally, is what cracks me up about kids who claim to read to an nth grade level). On the other hand, a 13 year old in the USA who could also read the same works in 6 different languages and translate fluently between them would not be considered normal, just as the 13 year old who cannot read at all is not considered normal; both deviate too far from the median.


On this subject in particular:

As you've been told already, it is not deviation from the norm that is ultimately worrying about this child's upbringing. It is that the parent did not consider reading an important enough life skill to risk the fact that the child might grow up never acquiring it. It is symptomatic of a family environment that intends to pressurise the child into leading a life of the parents' own making rather than permitting them to forge their own way.

In short, it is a family environment that is not.

And the blame for this lies largely upon the specific communal society within which the parents have settled.

Finding the solution to this problem is a puzzle that the world's great thinkers have mulled over for lifetimes without an answer. How do we rebuild a society without destroying its members? Unfortunately, the best answer raised so far has been "use more adaptable members", so we've still got a bit to go yet.

I'll get back to you on that one.

Smunkee, she is guilty of educational neglect. I'd certainly wonder what the hell she is sending in to the authorities as proof that he's following and mastering any sort of curriculum.
there aren't any laws in my state governing homeschool at all, that's how some people get around the actual "school" part of homeschooling.


I'm glad I got a mention in your poll (lol, you popped my cherry) but the rest of the line doesn't describe how I feel about this issue.
I thought the subject was kinda "teacher-y" (like how I make up words haha) so I thought maybe mention you.....

Normal is a pretty broad concept. I would define it as Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type.

As far as the home schooling......there are schools in the Bronx and Harlem where about half of the high school graduates can not read at a basic level. Not surprising, but then again, it is a public school.

In my state the department of child services can not act on "educational neglect", if he were being physically harmed they could do something, otherwise they can not. (I called them the day we had the discussion) They have no legal recourse to enter the house, interview the child, or even make him go to public school.

That's freedom taken too far. I've you don't send your kid to school here, you'll be fined for it. Although I remember there once was a girl who wasn't on school for a while. She was homeschooled by her parents, both of which are teachers. I have no idea what you have to do to be allowed to do this. I've googled this, though (not exactly from where I live, but it'll be close)


1 Wer vorsätzlich oder fahrlässig ein Kind:
a) ohne Bewilligung vom Unterricht fernhält oder
b) dieses nicht in die Schule oder Klasse schickt, in die es eingeteilt ist oder
c) in eine nicht bewilligte Privatschule schickt oder
d) ohne Bewilligung privat unterrichten lässt,
wird vom Schulrat mit Busse von 100 bis 5’000 Franken bestraft.
2 In leichten Fällen kann von einer Strafe abgesehen und eine Verwarnung
ausgesprochen werden.


"1 Whoever, by intent or carelessness,
a) keeps a child away from school without authorisation or
b) doesn't send him to his school or class or
c) sends him to a non-authorised private school or
d) has him educated privately without authorisation,
will be fined by the school inspector ranging from 100 to 5000 CHF.
2 If it's not a serious case, a caution can be issued instead of a fine"

I think that's a good law; while it allows homeschooling (apparently), it would surely protect this 13yo from his parents.

As for the poll, I chose the "there's 'normal', but you don't have to be normal" option.

Being normal isn't a particularly good thing, but being ignorant is very normal. That said, being illiterate isn't (most people come by their ignorance through an unwillingness to work, rather than an inability to do so), but being ignorant in any way is basically a bad thing.

Judging by normal/abnormal is silly. What is much more important is the 'capable of thinking and learning for themself'/'ignorant sheep' dichotomy. An inability to read is a sure sign of 'ignorant sheep' status.

And Smunkee, your kids make the rest of us look bad by learning so quickly. :p

Now that I think of it (i.e. have read the the last page of the thread, too), I think unschooling makes sense for this sect. Illiterate people are easier to control, so I guess the guru will be happy about it...

Now that I think of it (i.e. have read the the last page of the thread, too), I think unschooling makes sense for this sect. Illiterate people are easier to control, so I guess the guru will be happy about it...
yeah well, their "leader" is pissed off at me for "trying to indoctrinate" the 13 year old, I took him to breakfast today and talked to him about taking some classes with the local homeschool co-op (since he didn't want to go to the literacy program) and told him I would pay and sign him up on the carpool, so twice a week he is going to reading, math, and science classes. His mom said if he "wanted to" he could go, but I think his dad might not be too keen on the situation since he doesn't like me already. I hope that we can work it out, I am willing to not go to those co-op meetings if he just doesn't want me around the kid.

I use the term "church" loosely, basically they all live in trailers out on this guy's land, and the men go to church while the women and children stay home and then the men "bring back the word" to their families.

I say her husband is idiotic because he told her I was a "false prophet" because I invited her to ladies Bible study and told her that her husband could watch the kids.

Gee, why am I not surprised?

...Oh, right: location, location, location. Over my time living in redneck, er, northeast Texas, I've come to associate the vast majority of Christian fundamentalists with a mindset that denies the value of information. At best, people in this mindset reject certain aspects of science that conflict with their deeply-held beliefs; at worst, this mindset leads people to completely reject learning unless their leaders feel it is necessary to further their religious beliefs. The woman in question seems to fall on the bad end of the spectrum.

I was like that when I was little. Well, I didn't read as quickly, but I'd read until someone forced me to do something else. Its awesome that your little girl loves to read so much. The one thing I will say is when I was little I read so much cuz I was sad and upset and did not want to deal with reality. That's probably not the case with your little girl, but it is something you might want to look out for.

Gee, sounds familiar... I'd go further and say that many gifted youngsters have a tendency to retreat into the world of books and computers in order to escape the hardships of reality. I speak from experience.

...Oh, right: location, location, location. Over my time living in redneck, er, northeast Texas, I've come to associate the vast majority of Christian fundamentalists with a mindset that denies the value of information. At best, people in this mindset reject certain aspects of science that conflict with their deeply-held beliefs; at worst, this mindset leads people to completely reject learning unless their leaders feel it is necessary to further their religious beliefs. The woman in question seems to fall on the bad end of the spectrum.
Ahh, Sharia da ne?

Public schools are not very effective and very repressive to the religious.

I agree with just about everyone else on this - this isn't a matter of "normal" vs. "abnormal." The parents of this child are putting him at a significant disadvantage in life - and that is the problem.

Meanwhile, I vaguely understand the idea of unschooling, but I don't think that gets around this particular problem. You see, at that age, if the child can't read, he really isn't going to be learning anything, even if it is self-directed. So, while "unschooling" may be useful at some stages and for some children, it isn't going to do him any good at all - since there isn't much he can learn on his own.

Manyt public schools graduate people from high school who lack any basic skills of any kind.

If these so-called parents are part of a "Church", isn't teaching the kids to read more important? If I were a Christian, I'd want my kids to read so they can read a Bible for themselves.

Sounds like the "church" in question is one of the types that probably doesn't want the parishioners to read the Bible for themselves. Most likely, they are simply supposed to take the preacher's word for what is actually there.

Manyt public schools graduate people from high school who lack any basic skills of any kind.

As do many private schools. And? Those children are done a disservice in much the same way that this child is. And every teacher who passed such students through classes without them actually acquiring any such skills should be held accountable.

did I fail to mention that her 5 year old still drinks out of a bottle and wears pull-ups (because diapers are too little now)

I have major problems with that......maybe I could use that for child services, the kid is getting some bad diaper rash.

:confused: :( :mad: :headbang:

W
T
F

Although human intellectual ability is spread out on a Gaussian bell curve, that does not mean that the 50% of people who inevitably will be of below average ability, have to be retards. Everyone has a role to play in determining just how bad the tail end of the curve is. There is no reason, barring physical damage, why even the bottom 1% should not be able to read.

Yes, that woman is an idiot.

Even the least educated do not have to be uneducated.

Public schools are not very effective and very repressive to the religious.


In case you haven't noticed, this is not a thread on public schools and whether or not they work. This is a thread on a parent who refuses to send her child to school, refuses to teach him herself, and thinks that "sport stacking" is a life skill.

Additionally, your single line off-topic comments are spamming, so knock it off.

To illustrate(prepare for a bad ASCII graph):
The horizontal axis measures normality.
The vertical axis measures how good whatever it is is.
............|...........
............|...........
.....A.....|...........
............|...........
............|..........
............|...........
........B..|..C........
------------------
............|...........
............|...........
............|...........
............|...........
.....D.....|...........
............|...........
So:
Point A would be something like Albert Einstein.
Point B would be about where homosexuality fits
Point C would be about where heterosexuality fits.
And point D would be that illiterate 13 year old.
You can see that points A and D are directly above each other, and points B and C are also on a line.
The difference is that Einstein is good abnormal, and the 13-year-old is bad abnormal.
I know the point's already been made, I just wanted the post the graph.

Although human intellectual ability is spread out on a Gaussian bell curve, that does not mean that the 50% of people who inevitably will be of below average ability, have to be retards. Everyone has a role to play in determining just how bad the tail end of the curve is. There is no reason, barring physical damage, why even the bottom 1% should not be able to read.

Yes, that woman is an idiot.

Even the least educated do not have to be uneducated.
Yeah, it really depends where the peak of the curve is.
If the peak is at Einstein level, then the bottom 1% percent are still very smart.
If the peak is at rat level, then the top 1% are about the level of Pat Robinson.

I think I share feelings with OriginalPoster.
On one hand, I am against all frames setting something as normal and everybody should follow that. Completely against.

On the other hand, if 12 year old can't read, that's not normal.

My opinion is that there is normal and people should be relatively close to that. You know - grey area. People could learn reading at age 3 or age 7. But in the age of 2 months or 14 years is not normal.
Similarly as in "As consenting adults do..." most things could be normal or in the grey area. Fine with me. But the story of german person that consenting with friend, at first cut and cooked his penis and they both ate it, and then killed that friend (with his agreement) and ate him... That's not normal. Never mind that they both agreed.

So you know, not everybody should be 'normal', but nobody should go in extremes. Not reading at 13 is absolute extreme.

There is definitely a “normal.” Most who would say otherwise I would charge with being dishonest. It is okay and expected for some to deviate from this normality, as that deviation further defines normality which is very necessary to the efficient functioning of society.

I think I share feelings with OriginalPoster.
On one hand, I am against all frames setting something as normal and everybody should follow that. Completely against.

On the other hand, if 12 year old can't read, that's not normal.

My opinion is that there is normal and people should be relatively close to that. You know - grey area. People could learn reading at age 3 or age 7. But in the age of 2 months or 14 years is not normal.
Similarly as in "As consenting adults do..." most things could be normal or in the grey area. Fine with me. But the story of german person that consenting with friend, at first cut and cooked his penis and they both ate it, and then killed that friend (with his agreement) and ate him... That's not normal. Never mind that they both agreed.

So you know, not everybody should be 'normal', but nobody should go in extremes. Not reading at 13 is absolute extreme.

I think the issue is that we can find reasons for the "bad abnormals" that don't involve bringing up whether or not it is normal. Yes, it is abnormal for a perfectly functional 13-year old kid to be illiterate, but its abnormality is not why it is bad. Yes, it is abnormal for a man to cut off his penis and it it with his friend, but it isn't bad because it is abnormal, it is bad because it is a sign of some serious mental problems and he needs to seek medical attention. And so on....

If the only reason for "this is bad" that you can come up with is, "It's not normal," then you have to ask yourself, "Who cares?" If, on the other hand, there are solid reasons for it being bad, then the fact that it is not normal is a moot point (other than being glad that something bad is not normal).

it is bad because it is a sign of some serious mental problems and he needs to seek medical attention. And so on....

I don't think you read his whole post, the guy also consented to letting his friend kill and eat him.
Not much a doctor can do with a half eaten corpse.

We then got into this discussion about the pressure to be "normal". Now, I will be the first to admit my kids are abnormal, very abnormal. I could argue that they are "abnormal" in a good way, but that would probably be a value statement based on my own mommy bias.

Anyway, she asks me "what's normal? and why is it important for your kids to be normal?"

So, what's your take on it? Is there normal? Is it good? What amount of abnormality is acceptable? How are you abnormal? would you change that about yourself if you could?
"Normal" is a very nice feeling. I miss it when it's gone.

The issue of the kid being illiterate shouldn't be about normality, it should be about competition. If the kid can't read, he will not be able to complete in the job market. Plain and simple.

On the subject of normality, normality is not in fact important. As the person with the graph demonstrated there are all sorts of levels for normal. And at some level is definately bad to be abnormal. (Also thank you person with the creepy story about the German guys...) The main issue here is not about normalcy it's about parents willfully crippling the kids entire future! This woman and/or her husband have some serious issues. No matter how smart this kid is (excepting absolute genius which would compensate anyways) he is going to be disfunctional for his whole life. Do not allow the woman to drag you into a debate about normalcy. Explain that that is not the issue but that her kids future is going to be ruined by illiteracy. (it probably already is but u could at least help the 5 year-old).

I don't think you read his whole post, the guy also consented to letting his friend kill and eat him.
Not much a doctor can do with a half eaten corpse.

No, I read it. But you're right, not much a doctor can do with that. Hence the reason that I focused on the penis-eating part.

So, what's your take on it? Is there normal? Is it good? What amount of abnormality is acceptable? How are you abnormal? would you change that about yourself if you could?

Your use of terms in this particular case is wrong.

I voted "I dont care" by the way.

Normal--is completely a matter of perspective, there is no such thing as a base "Normal" only jack-asses and bigots think there is.

However this child is not meeting societal standards--screw normal---he cant read.

This is a matter of quality--I am sorry to refer to people like they are products but I am an American hence a super consumer.

The child is operating outside societies limits--he isnt abnormal, he is breaking the rules, or rather his parents are breaking the rules.

I am certain you children smunk are not nearly as abnormal as you might think, but your friends kid, is being robbed---abused---violated.

The debate over "Normal" is a sideshow diversion---the woman you call a friend is neglecting her child, better to have him miss six or seven meals then not feed his mind and she is letting him waste away intellectually--You should report her to some type of authority.

This childs life will be destroyed and he will end up depending on a failing state to care for him.


It sounds to me that this woman is trying to create a dependency so that the child will never be able to strike out on his own.

I also wish to explain something, he isnt a genius--he cant even take an IQ test to determine if he his retarded---he is incapable functioning.

He may have the ability to learn a great deal but that skill unused means nothing.

I am too angry to post anything else on the matter other then profanity.

As far as the home schooling......there are schools in the Bronx and Harlem where about half of the high school graduates can not read at a basic level. Not surprising, but then again, it is a public school.
Could name the schools? Cite the report--- Name a source for this farce.
What exactly is "about half"?
By the way you layout your "facts" you must have attended classes in Harlem or the Bronx.

Wait dont tell me, you heard it, or read it somewhere.

Public schools are not very effective and very repressive to the religious.
You again.

Fundamentalist Christian here, I went to public schools--with Catholics and a majority Muslim community. There was no religious repression, none, oh wait did I have to learn evolution theory to pass my science courses? YES-- You kind of need to know the basis of biology, where science says all living things come from if you are going to advance any further then "yup, thats a dog".

As far as effective, well if you can respond to my question about your sources I will concede their ineptitude--but you cant, so I wont.
Public is completely effective, efficient, ---Home schooling now with imposed standards is demonstrating great potential(a pity smunk your state just trusts the breeding masses to do right by their kids--most home schoolers i have met are two or three grades behind--I knwo this is not the national average) so please dont bash public schools Barry, at least not unless you can cite a source of some merit.

Of course there's normal. It's average.

I don't see how one's degree of normalcy is ever relevant, though. Who cares if I'm normal? I'm much more concerned if I'm skilled (which the illiterate child really isn't).

I was talking to a friend a few days back about her specific 'homeschool theory' and I was shocked to find out (not really shocked so much as disgusted) that her 13 year old son can not read. Let me spell this out for you, not "he can't read well" but the kid can't read. She says to me "he knows most of his alphabet, but not really like the phonics, I just don't want to push it on him if he isn't interested".

That's okay. He can live his life according to oral traditions. Sinuhue would probably like that.

ah, but what amount of abnormality is acceptable?
I think that's a totally different question from the question of what this woman thinks she's doing by not teaching her son to read.

First of all, I don't think "abnormality" is something that is subject to "acceptability." Personally, I am alarmed at the expansion of definitions of autism into different degrees of so-called dysfunction. Likewise with over medication of children for supposed ADD, etc, many of which "conditions," such as they may exist at all, are not dysfunctional enough to warrant medication. When a society gets into this level of cubbyholing human beings, what we're really doing is trying to eliminate individual variation and that is just not healthy.

When we ask whether "abnormality" is acceptable or not, it immediately begs the question "what kind of abnormality"? If we are going to segregate children for behavioral and personality differences, are we also going to segregate for physical handicaps? How about just physical differences, such as height? What will be considered normal or abnormal in that?

And if "normal" is the average, then what if the community is, on average, white? Does white become normal then, and should the one black person on the street be considered abnormal?

And finally, if we decide that some level of "abnormality" is "unacceptable," then what is to be done about that? Shall we medicate it out of sight, as with ADD? What if it can't be hidden, such as a physical "abnormality"?

You see why I think this is the wrong question to ask. Individual variation is not abnormality. And even where there is abnormality -- as in a medical condition -- that is not necessarily "unacceptable," as long as it does not interfere with the individual's ability to function.

But none of this applies to the woman who will not teach her son to read.

The bottom line is that, by not teaching him this skill, she is cutting him off from being able to fully participate in US society and in most other societies around the world. He will not be able to get or keep a decent-paying job. He will not have easy access to important information about politics, the law, his taxes, his healthcare -- how can he submit insurance forms or get the dosage and danger info printed on the labels of over the counter medications? Setting aside the social embarrassment he will feel by growing up "abnormal" -- a sense of shame often reported by illiterate adults -- this boy will be defenseless against any demogogue who claims to know what is going on in the country or the world, because how will he do his own research to be able to judge the truth and make up his own mind?

One of my high school history teachers once said that literacy was the most important skill of the modern world and a free society, because without it, the populace is dependent upon a literate elite to tell them what the truth is, what the books say. But a literate population can go to the source themselves to see what it says in the newspaper or the Bible. Martin Luther understood this very well indeed. By allowing her boy to grow up illiterate, this woman is bouncing him back to the level of a 14th century peasant.

[snip]
So, what's your take on it? Is there normal? Is it good? What amount of abnormality is acceptable? How are you abnormal? would you change that about yourself if you could?First off... Normal is what's socially acceptable. in the past. it was normal for women to stay at home and cook. now, it's normal for women to work along side men. Normal changes as each generation adds to society.

second. people want to be Normal... even when they are not. they want the acceptance, the aninimoty that normal gives them.

Third, nowdays, in this PC world, her child can function without literacy. because we now have to cater to everyone dispite their differences, her child will have some trouble, but can still bascially function... of course, he/she will be taken advantage of in ways that others won't be... (can't read the fine print on contracts if they can't read the contract in the first place.)


and on a side note, Please watch the Anime series "Azumanga Daioh" your daughter reminds me of Chiyo-Chan. ;)

I was talking to a friend a few days back about her specific 'homeschool theory' and I was shocked to find out (not really shocked so much as disgusted) that her 13 year old son can not read. Let me spell this out for you, not "he can't read well" but the kid can't read. She says to me "he knows most of his alphabet, but not really like the phonics, I just don't want to push it on him if he isn't interested".

Now, all of my huge objections to her "parenting style" aside, isn't it abnormal for a teenager to be not only functionally illiterate, but actually illiterate?

We then got into this discussion about the pressure to be "normal". Now, I will be the first to admit my kids are abnormal, very abnormal. I could argue that they are "abnormal" in a good way, but that would probably be a value statement based on my own mommy bias.

Anyway, she asks me "what's normal? and why is it important for your kids to be normal?"

I spent most of my teen years trying not to be "average" or normal, or even do what people thought I should, there was this big huge "don't be part of the norm" thing about me.

So, I have been thinking "what is normal? and why is it important to me?"

educationally, I hate to be like "well, that's not normal" because I know kids are all different, but really, I have a huge problem with the kid not reading, I wonder if it's because (as she claims) I have been conditioned to believe that people start reading at 5, or if I am actually worried about the kid, or if I am hung up on "normal".

then I start to think about other areas of life, I am much more comfortable with saying that sexual practices are "fine" even if they are out of the norm, it makes no sense to me why someone would call someone else's sexual activities "deviant" when they probably do something likewise "abnormal" on their own, I am very comfortable with the idea of "whatever consenting adults do....." but why is it that way for sex and not for education?

My husband thinks it has to do with the 13 year old being a kid, and therefore can not consent to being ignorant or something (didn't quite catch it)

Then I think "what if normal is just average? what if it's not even right?" it was normal for a long time for people to have slaves, that doesn't make it right.

What about all the "shoulds", usually I don't like that word......or the sentence that goes with it

"you should have....blah blah blah"

because I feel like people are trying to replace my judgement with their own, you know since they are, but it just seems wrong.... who made up the shoulds? the supposed to's? normal?

So, what's your take on it? Is there normal? Is it good? What amount of abnormality is acceptable? How are you abnormal? would you change that about yourself if you could?


I am not normal and never have been. I do what's right according to my judgement. If it's normal, so what? if it isn't, so what?

But it really concerns me that a parent doesn't seem to understand that her role is to teach her child to be independent and self-reliant. This involves making him/her do things that he/she doesn't want to do, like learning to read. She may think it's easier now if she just lets it slide, but she's just put him on the road to failure. He'll end up hating her in 10 years instead of hating her now and getting over it in 10 years.

Either..
1)Idiot
2)Garbage Collector of the future
3)He is banking on some kick arse Social services in the future...
*No offence to garbage collectors...

Even garbage collectors have to fill out a W4 form.

Even garbage collectors have to fill out a W4 form.
depends on one's definition of "Garbage Collector" it may not be referring to the profession... :D

do you think I could report her for being in a cult? maybe then they would take away the kids...I hate being like "they need to take away the kids" because I feel judgemental, but really..........they need to take away the kids.

If being prejudiced against stupidity makes you a 'stupidist' wear the badge proudly.