NationStates Jolt Archive

and not a charge in sight. Yesterday, prosecutors in the infamous cell phone case backed away from their terrorism charges quite quickly, and now it seems there may not have been very much to the British case either. (http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006/08/the_uk_terror_p.html) Craig Murray is Britain's Ambassador to Uzbekistan, and he has this to say.

I have been reading very carefully through all the Sunday newspapers to try and analyse the truth from all the scores of pages claiming to detail the so-called bomb plot. Unlike the great herd of so-called security experts doing the media analysis, I have the advantage of having had the very highest security clearances myself, having done a huge amount of professional intelligence analysis, and having been inside the spin machine.

So this, I believe, is the true story.

None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb. None had bought a plane ticket. Many did not even have passports, which given the efficiency of the UK Passport Agency would mean they couldn't be a plane bomber for quite some time.

In the absence of bombs and airline tickets, and in many cases passports, it could be pretty difficult to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt that individuals intended to go through with suicide bombings, whatever rash stuff they may have bragged in internet chat rooms.

What is more, many of those arrested had been under surveillance for over a year - like thousands of other British Muslims. And not just Muslims. Like me. Nothing from that surveillance had indicated the need for early arrests.

Then an interrogation in Pakistan revealed the details of this amazing plot to blow up multiple planes - which, rather extraordinarily, had not turned up in a year of surveillance. Of course, the interrogators of the Pakistani dictator have their ways of making people sing like canaries. As I witnessed in Uzbekistan, you can get the most extraordinary information this way. Trouble is it always tends to give the interrogators all they might want, and more, in a desperate effort to stop or avert torture. What it doesn't give is the truth.

The gentleman being "interrogated" had fled the UK after being wanted for questioning over the murder of his uncle some years ago. That might be felt to cast some doubt on his reliability. It might also be felt that factors other than political ones might be at play within these relationships. Much is also being made of large transfers of money outside the formal economy. Not in fact too unusual in the British Muslim community, but if this activity is criminal, there are many possibilities that have nothing to do with terrorism.

We then have the extraordinary question of Bush and Blair discussing the possible arrests over the weekend. Why? I think the answer to that is plain. Both in desperate domestic political trouble, they longed for "Another 9/11". The intelligence from Pakistan, however dodgy, gave them a new 9/11 they could sell to the media. The media has bought, wholesale, all the rubbish they have been shovelled.
The sad thing about this is that there really is a threat out there, but the governments of both the US and Britain, it seems, are determined to play the boy who cried wolf, and eventually, that's going to return to bite us in the ass.

I guess we won't know till they go on trail...lets hope that actually happens :(

I think the cell-phone terrorism arrests were ludicrous i'm glad they dropped them. The UK plot however I am still deciding on....

O, but ofcourse this is a lie! Those evildoers clearly wanted to blow up those planes and kill hundreds of thousands of millions of innocent people!

*note sarcasm and waits for DK to react*

:rolleyes:

I think the cell-phone terrorism arrests were ludicrous i'm glad they dropped them. The UK plot however I am still deciding on....
The British do have 28 days to put a case together, but it is, um, interesting that this plot to bomb planes pops up out of nowhere, and only after the Pakistanis work a little magic on the guy they captured.

A little note to all those torture apologists out there--this is why torturing prisoners for information is stupid. You get what you want to hear, not what the actual situation is.

The British do have 28 days to put a case together, but it is, um, interesting that this plot to bomb planes pops up out of nowhere, and only after the Pakistanis work a little magic on the guy they captured.

A little note to all those torture apologists out there--this is why torturing prisoners for information is stupid. You get what you want to hear, not what the actual situation is.

I think the bush/blair admin. now has negative credibility if thats possible...

Was the ambassador to Uzbekistan. He left under a bit of a cloud. He claims he was a victim of conscience. Other's claim he was a drunk and was handing out visas for sex.

I don't know if the actual charges were ever leaked.

Anway, he's just a man on the street now.

so shouldn't those people calling anyone with doubts "conspiracy theorists" apologize now?

:p

I guess you all have the solution of ignoring threats and not investigating them. Sounds like what led to September 11, 2001.

*censored*

nevermind :headbang:

Seems like many people would like to see such potential threats ignored in order to be more PC. I put people's lives and national security first.

I guess you all have the solution of ignoring threats and not investigating them. Sounds like what led to September 11, 2001.
The point the article is making is that the threat was not as major as it was made out to be and is based on possibly dubious evidence, not that anyone is ignoring threats.

I guess you all have the solution of ignoring threats and not investigating them. Sounds like what led to September 11, 2001.


Yes, that is exactly what everyone is saying. You are so smart. *dreamy eyes for Barry*

*starts singing*

Love is in the air...:D

Barrygoldwater, just a question. Have you ever experienced a terrorist attack? That you were close, just a few blocks away?

*starts singing*

Love is in the air...:D

Barrygoldwater, just a question. Have you ever experienced a terrorist attack? That you were close, just a few blocks away?

Yes. Yes.

I put people's lives and national security first.

I'd rather die horribly in a terrorist attack than live horribly under an authoritarian regime or even not have the right to a fair trial

After all a government that rules by terror is the same as terrorists if you ask me

If it looks suspicious, it's terrorism, and has Al-Quaeda links.
If it doesn't look suspicious, but it's a Muslim, it's terrorism.

Yes. Yes.

Great, so we DO have something in common.

Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers_Bombing)

I'll tell you, I didn't liked it being 7 years. Me and my mother and father were shopping nearby when we heared the blast.

I think the cell-phone terrorism arrests were ludicrous i'm glad they dropped them.

The state dropped their terror charges. Now Uncle Sam is charging them.

Link (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060816/NEWS99/60816016)

I'd rather die horribly in a terrorist attack than live horribly under an authoritarian regime or even not have the right to a fair trial

After all a government that rules by terror is the same as terrorists if you ask me

That has nothing to do with America.

If it looks suspicious, it's terrorism, and has Al-Quaeda links.
If it doesn't look suspicious, but it's a Muslim, it's terrorism.

Nobody ever said that. We just investigate and hand out charges as situations warrent. There is no broad conspiracy on Muslims, only good cops who are looking out for public safety. Do you blame them for it?

Great, so we DO have something in common.

Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers_Bombing)

I'll tell you, I didn't liked it being 7 years. Me and my mother and father were shopping nearby when we heared the blast.

I had the extreme misfortune of being stuck in Manhattan on a quickly aborted school related trip on September 11, 2001. I had only lived in NY for 3 weeks at the time.

The state dropped their terror charges. Now Uncle Sam is charging them.

Link (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060816/NEWS99/60816016)
Great, so they are charging them with counterfitting phones.
Let me reemphasise.
They are being accused of counterfeitting mother fucking phones.
If they can counterfeit phones, their fucking punishment should be to get the god damn NSA/CIA/FBI computer system in fucking order.

Not only that, but they are being accused of it while there are witnesses to them buying the phones.
The federal government must have one bullshit definition of "counterfeit."
More like breaking the can't be Muslim law.

Great, so they are charging them with counterfitting phones.
Let me reemphasise.
They are being accused of counterfeitting mother fucking phones.
If they can counterfeit phones, their fucking punishment should be to get the god damn NSA/CIA/FBI computer system in fucking order.

The NSA, CIA, and FBi are very reliable.

That has nothing to do with America.

I guess your right there isn't any trails :p

and yes it does those "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

The NSA, CIA, and FBi are very reliable.

But they failed seeing the clear signes of what would come and what eventualy happen on 9/11

Nobody ever said that. We just investigate and hand out charges as situations warrent. There is no broad conspiracy on Muslims, only good cops who are looking out for public safety. Do you blame them for it?
The problem with this particular situation is that the circumstances did not warrant terrorism charges. Good police work should be praised, but making unsubstantiated charges is bad police work, and they should be blamed for it.

The NSA, CIA, and FBi are very reliable.

erm well I found this on the FBI: http://citypages.com/databank/25/1244/article12541.asp

as for CIA didn't they know about a planned attack on a U.S marine base yet just let it happen?

and yes it does those "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin


An opinion.

I had the extreme misfortune of being stuck in Manhattan on a quickly aborted school related trip on September 11, 2001. I had only lived in NY for 3 weeks at the time.

That's pretty deep shit...:(

But they failed seeing the clear signes of what would come and what eventualy happen on 9/11

because they were doing what the people on this thread want them to be doing now. Sitting their with their thumbs up their asses and hog tied to a chair of PC bureaucracy with a rope of uselessness. We have changed since 911 and we take threats seriously, despite what people on this thread would wish.

The problem with this particular situation is that the circumstances did not warrant terrorism charges. Good police work should be praised, but making unsubstantiated charges is bad police work, and they should be blamed for it.

The charges are dismissed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208716,00.html

The charges are very substantiated.
Really? Then why have they been dropped, pray tell? Linky (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060816/D8JHN5EO1.html)

Edit: That was a quick retraction. Anyway, the fact that the charges were made and publicized without evidence to back them up is irresponsible and they deserve the blame for acting without substantiation.

An opinion.

well if you want to live in perfect safety I suggest you move to North Korea I'm sure there will never be a terrorist attack there not that that will be on your list of worries

The federal government must have one bullshit definition of "counterfeit."

It's the Federal Government. They can stretch any phrase to mean just about anything.

The charges are dismissed.

The state terrorism charges were dropped. Now they're being charged under Federal counterfeiting charges. The thing that really gets me about that whole fiasco is that they made it a national media circus without having any sort of concrete evidence of a terror plot. They should have just kept it quiet and investigated it, and only go yelling "OMG, terrorists!" if they are reasonably sure they can prove it. As such, I'm quite ashamed with how my state dealt with this.

I guess you all have the solution of ignoring threats and not investigating them. Sounds like what led to September 11, 2001.

What led to September 11, 2001?
50 years of dumbass irresponsible US foreign policy. What goes around comes around. It's a wonder something of that kind did not happen much earlier. And who fostered the Al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan when the Russians invaded that land? And who sold the WMD that have so wondrously disappeared to Saddam Hussein when he fought the Ayatollah regime? And who let Al-Quaida into Iraq? And who supported the tyranny of Mohammad Reza Pahlevi so the Iranians embraced the Islamic revolution? And who suppported the tyranny of Batista so the Cubans embraced the leftist revolution?

because they were doing what the people on this thread want them to be doing now. Sitting their with their thumbs up their asses and hog tied to a chair of PC bureaucracy with a rope of uselessness. We have changed since 911 and we take threats seriously, despite what people on this thread would wish.
Yes, we've seen how you deal with threats and what savety precautions you take. Ridiculous panic.

The state dropped their terror charges. Now Uncle Sam is charging them.

Link (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060816/NEWS99/60816016)

go michigan ;)

BTW where do you live I'm in Dearborn

because they were doing what the people on this thread want them to be doing now. Sitting their with their thumbs up their asses and hog tied to a chair of PC bureaucracy with a rope of uselessness. We have changed since 911 and we take threats seriously, despite what people on this thread would wish.

this facistic line would be more credible if the phone guys were involved in terrorism and the british 'plot' wasnt't looking more threadbare by the minute

go michigan ;)

BTW where do you live I'm in Dearborn

Mount Pleasant.

I heard they dropped the charges on the two guys from Dearborn who got arrested doing the same thing in Ohio.

Mount Pleasant.

I heard they dropped the charges on the two guys from Dearborn who got arrested doing the same thing in Ohio.


i used to live in Clare! (or around it)

yea they did......

and now it seems there may not have been very much to the British case either. (http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006/08/the_uk_terror_p.html) Craig Murray is Britain's Ambassador to Uzbekistan, and he has this to say.


Isnt there anything anywhere more concrete to back this statement up than some guy in Uzbekistan with a hard on for the West who happens to read all the Sunday papers?

Isnt there anything anywhere more concrete to back this statement up than some guy in Uzbekistan with a hard on for the West who happens to read all the Sunday papers?

It isn't quite as was put forward.

There have been no charges but a judge has granted an extension to the police allowing them to hold the suspects until the 21st (2 of them) and 23rd (the rest).
One of them has been released.

The police must have good cause to hold them or the extension would not be granted (our judiciary is reasonably independent). The key will be next week. If they are released then it looks like either there was nothing to this or that political pressure/ professional screwup blew the case open too early.

It's a wait and see job.

the title of this topic keeps makign me think of a song by Suicidal Tendencies so I keep singing:

Terror, Terror, Everywhere, but I aint got time to care - I feel lovely

la la la lovely oh ho

Yes how about we just sit around and bitch about how horrible and unjust the American and British governments are for follwing up on a potential terroist plot. Like buying 80 or so cell phones doesn't seem abit strange or anything. Oooo .. how about maybe the media ( being the sensationalist and ratings whores that they are ) might have embelished things alittle? Oh no, God forbid that never happens!

Please.. Bush and Blair might be a bunch scare tactic jerk offs, but even so it would still be foolish not to follow up on anything.

The world isn't filled with pink fluffy clouds, cute little bunnies and daisy filled meadows. Thinking in such a manner is pure niavety.There are people in the world that would be in pure heaven if everyone in the west died a horrible death. While I might not agree with some of the tactics used for " anit-terroism" it's something.