NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, maybe the last topic was a little silly, but this one has substance.

When you need to get the answer to something, you research it. If you forget something, you ask someone about it. So why is it in school, people are expected to remember things?

So I'm taking my test, and I forget what the 100th element is on the periodic table. Oh darn, looks like I got that one wrong.

But if I'm in the workplace, and I need to figure out the right procedure to disassemble a battery, I don't sit there and let myself get burned by sulfuric acid. I go and look at some manuals.

All of this occured to me during one of my english exams. It was open note, open internet, open book. I just couldn't ask a friend for answers. The stipulation: There was a time limit. It's a perfect set up! I am forced to study, because if I look everything up, then I'm screwed because I'll run out of time, and if I happen to forget one or two things, because no one is perfect, I can look it up really quick.

In the end, you still learn.

But they could cheat so easily! Talk to their friends outside of class! And never learn a thing!

Well, there's a way around that.

Variate the questions for each class on the midterm and final. And whatever you do, make your tests HARD.

If they did that, I think students might be doing even better.

But that's me, and my rambling. What do you think?

All of this occured to me during one of my english exams. It was open note, open internet, open book. I just couldn't ask a friend for answers. The stipulation: There was a time limit. It's a perfect set up! I am forced to study, because if I look everything up, then I'm screwed because I'll run out of time, and if I happen to forget one or two things, because no one is perfect, I can look it up really quick.This is why people must remember facts...they don't always have time to look them up.

you Gonna Get Locked








:D

This is why people must remember facts...they don't always have time to look them up.
If they are bomb defusers.
There are certain facts people in a job need to know, then there is trivial shit they make you learn in school in the guise of learning essential information.

No one gives two shits what style of poetry Gilgamesh was written in.

you Gonna Get Locked








:D


Stop jynxing me man! :p

If they are bomb defusers.
There are certain facts people in a job need to know, then there is trivial shit they make you learn in school in the guise of learning essential information.

No one gives two shits what style of poetry Gilgamesh was written in.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. Obviously, if I want to be an engineer, I need to remember math and geometry equations, but say there's one little fact that I can't remember, I think I should be given the opportunity to look it up and not have it deducted from my score.

If they are bomb defusers.
There are certain facts people in a job need to know, then there is trivial shit they make you learn in school in the guise of learning essential information.On one hand, this is true, but on the other, few people know what they want to do as a job when they're in high school, therefore, a little bit of everything needs to be taught.

No one gives two shits what style of poetry Gilgamesh was written in.Poets and poetry critics might.

This is why people must remember facts...they don't always have time to look them up.

More so, you need to be able to identify chemicals (100 is a heavy mass and is radioactive, so you won't be finding it), but ones like Sucrose, Sugar, Hydrogen Peroxide, and other chemicals that you may come across. If you see something on fire that can't be put out by water, what can you do? If you take a look at the chemical makeup you can figure it out sometimes (or just step the hell away if its thermite).

Although the chance that you need these is very low, remembering them is still elementary for your well-being. How stupid would you sound if you didn't know what sugar is, or what salt is. You can also make sure something stupid doesn't happen like adding Francium which causes an explosion. In case of chemical fires you can know whether to get the hell out or try to put them out.

Nothing beats a little chaos though, namely figuring out why something happens that you didn't anticipate in a lab or something. (We turned pennies into brass with zinc powder and lots of heat)

Though the best reason to remember and know the elements is for people who plan to advance in that field and they must know them and what they are. Anyone pursuing a biochemical, chemical, medicinal, or just plain old college-level courses on science usually need to know about the smallest matter in our universe that has clear and special properties.

On one hand, this is true, but on the other, few people know what they want to do as a job when they're in high school, therefore, a little bit of everything needs to be taught.


But wouldn't you say kids would be more inclined to remember things that are their strengths? And then from there they can go to college?

But wouldn't you say kids would be more inclined to remember things that are their strengths? And then from there they can go to college?Yes, but a person's strengths aren't necessarily what they'll need when it comes for them to find a career.

Eraclea']More so, you need to be able to identify chemicals (100 is a heavy mass and is radioactive, so you won't be finding it), but ones like Sucrose, Sugar, Hydrogen Peroxide, and other chemicals that you may come across. If you see something on fire that can't be put out by water, what can you do? If you take a look at the chemical makeup you can figure it out sometimes (or just step the hell away if its thermite).
Are you the one starting the chemical fire? If so, how did you get access to the chemicals? If not, how the fuck would you know what the components were?

How stupid would you sound if you didn't know what sugar is, or what salt is.
What does that have to do with it?

You can also make sure something stupid doesn't happen like adding Francium which causes an explosion.
Where the fuck would you get Francium? I'm pretty sure that is one of those that cna only be created in lab conditions.

Nothing beats a little chaos though, namely figuring out why something happens that you didn't anticipate in a lab or something. (We turned pennies into brass with zinc powder and lots of heat)
You electroplated it, you didn't change anything, Captain Chemistry. We did it in Chemistry too.

Though the best reason to remember and know the elements is for people who plan to advance in that field and they must know them and what they are.
Exactly.

Ok, maybe the last topic was a little silly, but this one has substance.

When you need to get the answer to something, you research it. If you forget something, you ask someone about it. So why is it in school, people are expected to remember things?


So you're not a flippin' idiot. :p

Ok, maybe the last topic was a little silly, but this one has substance.

When you need to get the answer to something, you research it. If you forget something, you ask someone about it. So why is it in school, people are expected to remember things?

So I'm taking my test, and I forget what the 100th element is on the periodic table. Oh darn, looks like I got that one wrong.

But if I'm in the workplace, and I need to figure out the right procedure to disassemble a battery, I don't sit there and let myself get burned by sulfuric acid. I go and look at some manuals.

All of this occured to me during one of my english exams. It was open note, open internet, open book. I just couldn't ask a friend for answers. The stipulation: There was a time limit. It's a perfect set up! I am forced to study, because if I look everything up, then I'm screwed because I'll run out of time, and if I happen to forget one or two things, because no one is perfect, I can look it up really quick.

In the end, you still learn.

But they could cheat so easily! Talk to their friends outside of class! And never learn a thing!

Well, there's a way around that.

Variate the questions for each class on the midterm and final. And whatever you do, make your tests HARD.

If they did that, I think students might be doing even better.

But that's me, and my rambling. What do you think?

so you can win pub quizzes and wire a plug without instruction book help :rolleyes:

If you forget something, you ask someone about it. So why is it in school, people are expected to remember things?

Without school who would you ask...:p

Without school who would you ask...:p
Bill Nye, the Science Guy?

Bill Nye, the Science Guy?

Mr. Wizard > Bill Nye, the Science Guy. :p

Are you the one starting the chemical fire? If so, how did you get access to the chemicals? If not, how the fuck would you know what the components were?

Its happened before. Though I never started it. :)


What does that have to do with it?
Alright... I'll give ya something. What if you are without water in the woods, and you cannot find a clean source or water (why not pick the desert), you have a medical kit, a tent and other supplies. How do you get water?

Well... a simple solution is take a look at Hydrogen Peroxide, if you let that stay open it will begin to become water. (Also it is why you don't leave the cap open, as it will become ineffective to).


Where the fuck would you get Francium? I'm pretty sure that is one of those that cna only be created in lab conditions.

Adding any salt component to water without it being chemically balanced causes a violent reaction. Alkali's all do this and while Francium is the most reactive of all... you will probably find Sodium (NOT NaCl!) or Lithium, adding these to water creates a violent reaction, and in some cases, very violent explosions. Homemade weapon by accident or purpose?


You electroplated it, you didn't change anything, Captain Chemistry. We did it in Chemistry too.

Umm, no we didn't plate it, we changed the actual copper into brass, if you were to go with tin it would become bronze. It was an alloy.

Eraclea']
Adding any salt component to water without it being chemically balanced causes a violent reaction.
You mean pure sodium.

You mean pure sodium.

or any group 1 metals methinks

Eraclea']Umm, no we didn't plate it, we changed the actual copper into brass, if you were to go with tin it would become bronze. It was an alloy.
That's not changins copper, that's making an alloy. The copper wasn't made into a new element, it was alloyed with another one(zinc?).

You mean pure sodium.

Duh.

Any periodic table 1 element (minus hydrogen as we all know what that does to ANYTHING) causes a violent reaction in water.

i always thought exams were a pretty mindless way of gauging a student's supposed performance over a year. i had friends who did great coursework, worked hard all year, but found remembering pointless facts and revising particularly hard and always did badly at exams at the end of the year. on the other hand i had friends who goofed around all year, hardly did any work, but were great at sponging up come end of year exam-time and aced them with flying colours. is this fair? no, and it certainly misrepresented the skills and abilities of said friends.
me, i was sorta ok at doing both so i don't really mind - was lazy at revising and at working in the year :p

point is exams should not be the be-all and end-all of assessment in schools. in the UK there's still (or was when i was at school) too much emphasis on exams. granted at A-level the exams were testing more your understanding of the subject and ability to apply it than GCSE-style regurgitation of facts and the like... but still i believe there should be more in the way of consistant testing throughout the year in more coursework and more short per-topic exams that count (in a proper way, not just 10% as per when i did them) towards your final mark.

That's not changins copper, that's making an alloy. The copper wasn't made into a new element, it was alloyed with another one(zinc?).

As I said at the end of the quote you quoted me on, it was an alloy then. You can't transmute elements like that. :P

The copper became a brass alloy, if you add tin to the copper it will become a bronze alloy. Both the properties and appearance change. Making it a chemical reaction and not a physical reaction.

i always thought exams were a pretty mindless way of gauging a student's supposed performance over a year. i had friends who did great coursework, worked hard all year, but found remembering pointless facts and revising particularly hard and always did badly at exams at the end of the year. on the other hand i had friends who goofed around all year, hardly did any work, but were great at sponging up come end of year exam-time and aced them with flying colours. is this fair? no, and it certainly misrepresented the skills and abilities of said friends.
me, i was sorta ok at doing both so i don't really mind - was lazy at revising and at working in the year :p

point is exams should not be the be-all and end-all of assessment in schools. in the UK there's still (or was when i was at school) too much emphasis on exams. granted at A-level the exams were testing more your understanding of the subject and ability to apply it than GCSE-style regurgitation of facts and the like... but still i believe there should be more in the way of consistant testing throughout the year in more coursework and more short per-topic exams that count (in a proper way, not just 10% as per when i did them) towards your final mark.

We have them in the US. Quizes for each section of a lesson. Tests for each chapter. Mid-terms for half the year, and then the final exam which is 20% of our over all high school course grade.

Eraclea']Duh.

Any periodic table 1 element (minus hydrogen as we all know what that does to ANYTHING) causes a violent reaction in water.

hydrogen isnt a group 1 element :rolleyes:

i always thought exams were a pretty mindless way of gauging a student's supposed performance over a year. i had friends who did great coursework, worked hard all year, but found remembering pointless facts and revising particularly hard and always did badly at exams at the end of the year. on the other hand i had friends who goofed around all year, hardly did any work, but were great at sponging up come end of year exam-time and aced them with flying colours. is this fair? no, and it certainly misrepresented the skills and abilities of said friends.
me, i was sorta ok at doing both so i don't really mind - was lazy at revising and at working in the year :p

point is exams should not be the be-all and end-all of assessment in schools. in the UK there's still (or was when i was at school) too much emphasis on exams. granted at A-level the exams were testing more your understanding of the subject and ability to apply it than GCSE-style regurgitation of facts and the like... but still i believe there should be more in the way of consistant testing throughout the year in more coursework and more short per-topic exams that count (in a proper way, not just 10% as per when i did them) towards your final mark.

bugger off coursework is shite, id rather more exams

Eraclea']As I said at the end of the quote you quoted me on, it was an alloy then. You can't transmute elements like that. :P

The copper became a brass alloy, if you add tin to the copper it will become a bronze alloy. Both the properties and appearance change. Making it a chemical reaction and not a physical reaction.
Ah, very good then.

Eraclea']We have them in the US. Quizes for each section of a lesson. Tests for each chapter. Mid-terms for half the year, and then the final exam which is 20% of our over all high school course grade.
that sounds much better. here (when i did them) i think the final exam was worth 80 or 90% (depending on the course) and the different courseworks were worth 5 or 10% each (and you do 4 or so and take the best ones and put them towards the 10 or 20% you need to make up the 100 total, if that makes sense)

we did kinda have 'midterms' but they were the midterms for a 2 year course (AS levels of an A-level course for eg) so its still end of year exams, effectively.

the one subject i had year-round assesment on was economics where we had to do 4 exams during the year on the main topics we were studying. but even they only accounted for 10% of the total IIRC - not enough. (that said, for economics the coursework was also worth a full 20%, which was great cos i fucking aced that :D.... then again, it did take 4 months to do...)

hydrogen isnt a group 1 element :rolleyes:


Lol many people think so, but its properties say otherwise, that's why I mentioned it, but yes it is the most crazy and stupid atom of them all!

However it does have the electron configuration for a group 1 element, so in a sense it does also belong there.

bugger off coursework is shite, id rather more exams

coursework is more like what you do in real-life work. far more useful to prepare you for what comes after school (as the OP said, the majority of shit you have to learn for exams you never have to use again outside of those same exams :rolleyes: )

teaching people how to research and think and analyse for themselves is a much more useful and practical way of assessing things than exams, whether you dislike that or not

bugger off coursework is shite, id rather more exams

seconded

I never did any of my coursework :(

that sounds much better. here (when i did them) i think the final exam was worth 80 or 90% (depending on the course) and the different courseworks were worth 5 or 10% each (and you do 4 or so and take the best ones and put them towards the 10 or 20% you need to make up the 100 total, if that makes sense)

we did kinda have 'midterms' but they were the midterms for a 2 year course (AS levels of an A-level course for eg) so its still end of year exams, effectively.

the one subject i had year-round assesment on was economics where we had to do 4 exams during the year on the main topics we were studying. but even they only accounted for 10% of the total IIRC - not enough. (that said, for economics the coursework was also worth a full 20%, which was great cos i fucking aced that :D.... then again, it did take 4 months to do...)

That is just unfair. O.O! Come to the crazy USA. :D

Eraclea']Lol many people think so, but its properties say otherwise, that's why I mentioned it, but yes it is the most crazy and stupid atom of them all!

However it does have the electron configuration for a group 1 element, so in a sense it does also belong there.

more of a group 4 element if anything

coursework is more like what you do in real-life work. far more useful to prepare you for what comes after school (as the OP said, the majority of shit you have to learn for exams you never have to use again outside of those same exams :rolleyes: )

teaching people how to research and think and analyse for themselves is a much more useful and practical way of assessing things than exams, whether you dislike that or not

Yes, some coursework i can understand (like science) but english... infact id rathe no english at all

seconded

I never did any of my coursework :(

REBEL KID

Eraclea']That is just unfair. O.O! Come to the crazy USA. :D
lol too late for me now! :(

though i would still like to get a green card and live in san fancisco *cough* :P



the other crazy thing about the system here is there're these "AS levels", which are effectively half an A-level (which i guess would be high school diploma or something - you do them when you're 18). problem is i don't know of any university in the country that accepts AS-levels as a qualification... you need certain numbers of points to get into different degree schemes, but AS-levels don't count towards those points... which is fucking retarded :rolleyes: you waste 2 years doing 2 AS-levels (in which time you could have got an extra proper A-level) for absol-fucking-utely nothing :headbang: (as i did, sadly)

Yes, some coursework i can understand (like science) but english... infact id rathe no english at all

But judging by that post, you could use it.

But judging by that post, you could use it.

Hehe. His science skills are equally subpar. Group 4 my ass! Group 1.17!

I agree w/ the idea that fact memorization is not a great form of education for a simple reason. Facts can be looked up. The abilities to synthesize, analyze, apply, and discover the facts are much more useful as they require real intellect and forcing students to memorize facts takes time and testing resources away from all of the more important skills.

I agree w/ the idea that fact memorization is not a great form of education for a simple reason. Facts can be looked up. The abilities to synthesize, analyze, apply, and discover the facts are much more useful as they require real intellect and forcing students to memorize facts takes time and testing resources away from all of the more important skills.
Synthesize facts? You mean make them up?

I agree w/ the idea that fact memorization is not a great form of education for a simple reason. Facts can be looked up. The abilities to synthesize, analyze, apply, and discover the facts are much more useful as they require real intellect and forcing students to memorize facts takes time and testing resources away from all of the more important skills.

Though at what point does memorization become nessessary. Just as you learned to add, subtract, multiply and divide, a calculator is capable of doing it for you, but as you go farther and farther it becomes apparent that you need to remember these smaller steps to advance on as a whole.

Synthesize, analyze and apply and discover.. what's that BS about? Its utilization of facts, nothing more needs to be said, for it encompasses all you said. Though make sure that you aren't looking up simple things, as how to read time or anything else... for that is a waste of time.

Also... most kids can't tell time anymore, they need a digital clock. (At least in the US)

i always thought exams were a pretty mindless way of gauging a student's supposed performance over a year. i had friends who did great coursework, worked hard all year, but found remembering pointless facts and revising particularly hard and always did badly at exams at the end of the year. on the other hand i had friends who goofed around all year, hardly did any work, but were great at sponging up come end of year exam-time and aced them with flying colours. is this fair? no, and it certainly misrepresented the skills and abilities of said friends.
me, i was sorta ok at doing both so i don't really mind - was lazy at revising and at working in the year :p

point is exams should not be the be-all and end-all of assessment in schools. in the UK there's still (or was when i was at school) too much emphasis on exams. granted at A-level the exams were testing more your understanding of the subject and ability to apply it than GCSE-style regurgitation of facts and the like... but still i believe there should be more in the way of consistant testing throughout the year in more coursework and more short per-topic exams that count (in a proper way, not just 10% as per when i did them) towards your final mark.


I wholeheartedly agree. Basing a students ability on a stressful, time constrained test while being forced to sit for more than one hour doesn't prove crap to anyone :rolleyes:

I wholeheartedly agree. Basing a students ability on a stressful, time constrained test while being forced to sit for more than one hour doesn't prove crap to anyone :rolleyes:

80% of your grade though? Does that sound fair?

Eraclea']80% of your grade though? Does that sound fair?

Eh? I think final exams are a bad idea.