NationStates Jolt Archive

Granted, this is a long shot, but might turn out to be fun…

With a (temporary) ceasefire in Lebanon, let us talk peace for a moment. The NS community encompasses many people of different views; let us seek agreement as what would bring a lasting peace to the region. For, he NS community has many of the views present in the world; if we can come to some sort of agreement that is acceptable to those pro-Israel and those pro-Arab, so can others.

Seeing that convincing each other is quite rare in these forums, this subject does require a somewhat unusual style of debate. We do not need the verbal cannons we see regularly; as this style of debate in which to parties defend their stance is meant to convince a third, the public or viewing the debate. However, People will not likely come closer in this form of debate.

Therefore, I suggest we use dialectics instead of rhetoric:
I guess some of you might have read Plato. He uses a dialectic style of debate, in which the debaters are open to each other’s arguments, willing to change their standpoints in the search of truth and agreement; e.g. no scoring of points.

First we must come to a baseline that we can all agree on. For example I believe that no genocide would be a good place to start.

Second, once we have established this baseline we can work from there.

Third, if we do actually agree on something we will likely have found new wisdom that may help us understand this conflict better. Heck it might even help us in future, debates on the subject.

Who dares? ;)

The silence (no posts) is the answer.

The silence (no posts) is the answer.

I reckon you are right :D

I say we just move all the Brazilians to the Middle East, and all the Middle Easterners to Brazil.

Maybe without all their holy cities and landmarks to fight over, the two sides will find some freaky Amazon psychedelic plant life and just chill the fuck out.

I say we just move all the Brazilians to the Middle East, and all the Middle Easterners to Brazil.

Maybe without all their holy cities and landmarks to fight over, the two sides will find some freaky Amazon psychedelic plant life and just chill the fuck out.
More deportations?

What about the Brazilians, simply minding there own business and wham IR hits them in the face… bad idea…

No seriously, despite the harsh words and nonsense that has been posted on this forum before there are ways out of this conflict; peace is for the brave.

Let me state then that it would be helpful to keep civilians from harm, yes that includes Israeli’s, Palestinians, Iranians and Lebanese

More deportations?

What about the Brazilians, simply minding there own business and wham IR hits them in the face… bad idea…

No seriously, despite the harsh words and nonsense that has been posted on this forum before there are ways out of this conflict; peace is for the brave.

Let me state then that it would be helpful to keep civilians from harm, yes that includes Israeli’s, Palestinians, Iranians and Lebanese


And maybe not having a huge war/intifada every decade so the economy could snap out of its coma

As opposed to just relying on natural resources

And maybe not having a huge war/intifada every decade so the economy could snap out of its coma

As opposed to just relying on natural resources

right, war is not that productive...

Better economies may indeed help...

But these wars/intifada's have roots;

Israel feels threatened and is armed to the teeth... And rightly so, because defeat will mean destruction.

The lebanes feel threatened... And rightly so, because Israel has invaded on several occasions.

The Palestinian Refugees feel they are forgotten and lack a prospects for a better future, and rightly so it is hard sit at home when the road to your schools have been closed. It is hard to hold your job if you cannot go to work due to roadblock, or because the jobs are in Israel...

See my drift here?

The Palestinian Refugees feel they are forgotten and lack a prospects for a better future, and rightly so it is hard sit at home when the road to your schools have been closed. It is hard to hold your job if you cannot go to work due to roadblock, or because the jobs are in Israel...

See my drift here?


yup, best way to prevent a kid from becoming a suicide bomber is to give them something to live for.

better economy>better standards of living>less terrorists/militias>peace

We could drug them all. :)

yup, best way to prevent a kid from becoming a suicide bomber is to give them something to live for.

better economy>better standards of living>less terrorists/militias>peace


So how does a better economy serve the direct security demands from Israel?

Lebanon was rebuilding and progressing, still war broke out.. With all the detrimental effects that go with it....

Can we improve the economy, without it breaking down because of skirmishes/war

Drugging them all, and then rebuilding, might be a good idea... Still they are all armed and dangerous... how does one drugg Israel, Hezbu-llah or Hamas ;)

right, war is not that productive...

Better economies may indeed help...

But these wars/intifada's have roots;

Israel feels threatened and is armed to the teeth... And rightly so, because defeat will mean destruction.

The lebanes feel threatened... And rightly so, because Israel has invaded on several occasions.

The Palestinian Refugees feel they are forgotten and lack a prospects for a better future, and rightly so it is hard sit at home when the road to your schools have been closed. It is hard to hold your job if you cannot go to work due to roadblock, or because the jobs are in Israel...

See my drift here?

If the Palestinians ever stop their spontaneouse combustion inside crowded buses and markets and such..and stop killing and kidnapping and show they can actually be good neighbors , the roadblocks go away ..Palestine gets to be a state and Israel continues to give up land for peace.

BUT ...Israel gives land they give murder mayhem , kidnappings and bombings .

Some peace huh ?

Some partner to negotiate with .

Hey the Israelis moved out like they promised.. LETS KILL THEM !!! YAY !!!

If the Palestinians ever stop their spontaneouse combustion inside crowded buses and markets and such..and stop killing and kidnapping and show they can actually be good neighbors , the roadblocks go away ..Palestine gets to be a state and Israel continues to give up land for peace.

BUT ...Israel gives land they give murder mayhem , kidnappings and bombings .

Some peace huh ?

Some partner to negotiate with .

Hey the Israelis moved out like they promised.. LETS KILL THEM !!! YAY !!!
All is connected in this conflict... It will not help to make out one party for a saint and the other for the devil...

Following the Oslo accords the roadblocks remained and settlements grew...

Following the death of Rabin Israel elected Netanjahu, who promised to reverse the Oslo accords...

Following the mandate of Peace of Barak, the roadblocks remained and the settlements grew, while Barak was negotiating with Syria...

Few things changed... No saints in this conflict... Believing otherwise is folly

It's not just about Israel, either.

There's plenty of hatred between Sunnis and Shia, and between the more radical elements of the Sunnis (Wahhabism) to fuel war and terrorism in the region for the next 500 years.

There are also political interests on top of religious ones, and resources such as water (not just oil) that are extremely contentious.

There is no simple solution to "peace in the Middle East". Look at how long it took Europe to at least knock off major conventional warfare - almost 2000 years. We've still had homegrown terrorism in Europe, despite the "peace". And a lot of that "peace" in Europe was really a Cold War. So, counting from 1991, that's not even two decades of "peace".

What makes the lack of peace in the world so alarming these days is the combination of people who are willing to commit suicide, and kill others at any cost, and the presence of WMD. I already think it's too late - Pakistan, after developing and testing nuclear weapons, sold the technology through Dr. Khan to any interested party - all we know is that he sold it to countries like Iran - we don't know who else he may have sold it to.

It's not just about Israel, either.

There's plenty of hatred between Sunnis and Shia, and between the more radical elements of the Sunnis (Wahhabism) to fuel war and terrorism in the region for the next 500 years.

There are also political interests on top of religious ones, and resources such as water (not just oil) that are extremely contentious.

There is no simple solution to "peace in the Middle East". Look at how long it took Europe to at least knock off major conventional warfare - almost 2000 years. We've still had homegrown terrorism in Europe, despite the "peace". And a lot of that "peace" in Europe was really a Cold War. So, counting from 1991, that's not even two decades of "peace".

What makes the lack of peace in the world so alarming these days is the combination of people who are willing to commit suicide, and kill others at any cost, and the presence of WMD. I already think it's too late - Pakistan, after developing and testing nuclear weapons, sold the technology through Dr. Khan to any interested party - all we know is that he sold it to countries like Iran - we don't know who else he may have sold it to.

bright little ray of sunshine today aren't we?;)

It's not just about Israel, either.

There's plenty of hatred between Sunnis and Shia, and between the more radical elements of the Sunnis (Wahhabism) to fuel war and terrorism in the region for the next 500 years.

There are also political interests on top of religious ones, and resources such as water (not just oil) that are extremely contentious.

There is no simple solution to "peace in the Middle East". Look at how long it took Europe to at least knock off major conventional warfare - almost 2000 years. We've still had homegrown terrorism in Europe, despite the "peace". And a lot of that "peace" in Europe was really a Cold War. So, counting from 1991, that's not even two decades of "peace".

What makes the lack of peace in the world so alarming these days is the combination of people who are willing to commit suicide, and kill others at any cost, and the presence of WMD. I already think it's too late - Pakistan, after developing and testing nuclear weapons, sold the technology through Dr. Khan to any interested party - all we know is that he sold it to countries like Iran - we don't know who else he may have sold it to.

Granted, there is no simple solution, and it is not only about Israel, but this would be a good place to start with a brave solution before things get worse

Granted, there is no simple solution, and it is not only about Israel, but this would be a good place to start with a brave solution before things get worse

On the subject of Israel.

It appears over the past decade that Israel has tried to come to peace agreements, only to have them suddenly reneged on by the Palestinians. Hezbollah, which is in all reality a proxy fighting force recruited, trained, and paid for by Iran, is contesting the ownership of Shebaa Farms, a piece of land that by the UN's own investigations and conclusions, never belonged to Lebanon, let alone Hezbollah.

In the political manifestos, declarations, etc., of both the Palestinians and Hezbollah, we find an unwillingness to accept peace - even if it is given. Hezbollah in particular says that even if they get Shebaa Farms, they will fight on until Israel is destroyed. While the Palestinian Authority officially recognized Israel, Hamas does not - and one may see in their maps of the area that Israel does not exist.

I'm not saying that Israel has been very nice either. This business of building settlements (depending on who is in the government this year), or targeted assassinations by guided missile doesn't help matters.

Israel's recent policy, up until this most recent conflict, seems to have been one of disengagement - let the Palestinians do their thing whereever they happen to be now, and count on the UN to enforce the northern Blue Line.

Well, that doesn't work either. Palestinians want Israel to continue to engage them, especially by violence, because it's good for PR. And the UN is toothless and worthless at enforcing anything.

If you wanted to work something out, say, a mutual "we leave you alone, you leave us alone" thing, and the Palestinians get the West Bank and Gaza, and Hezbollah gets southern Lebanon, and Israel stays inside its pre-1967 borders, I'm pretty sure Israel would sign the agreement, and stick to it as long as there were no suicide bombers, no rocket attacks, and no tunnels dug into Israel to kidnap people.

I can't say that there's anything anyone could say that would make the Palestinians or Hezbollah happy, other than the utter destruction of Israel, and the ethnic cleansing of the area of Jews, by death or fleeing.

I'm going to offer a slghtly more serious solution. Slightly.

The problem, as I see it is selflessness. It seems that way too many people in the middle east are willing not just to kill, but to die for a cause or for their faith. That just won't do. We need to encourage a good healthy fear of death and a powerful selfish self-interest into these people.

Let's look at a comparison:

How many of you would be willing to strap on a bomb and wear it into a mall or bus just because your political and/or religious leader told you it was your solemn duty? My response? 'Fuck That!'

If some of your neighbors were shelling people with rockets from your apartment building's rooftop and those people being attacked were more than willing and able to bomb the entire city block to kindom come, how many of you would allow that? Wouldn't you head up to the roof with a shotgun and blow the morons away before they got you killed? I would. :p

See, it's that kind of self-interest that keeps peace alive. :)

I'm going to offer a slghtly more serious solution. Slightly.

The problem, as I see it is selflessness. It seems that way too many people in the middle east are willing not just to kill, but to die for a cause or for their faith. That just won't do. We need to encourage a good healthy fear of death and a powerful selfish self-interest into these people.

Let's look at a comparison:

How many of you would be willing to strap on a bomb and wear it into a mall or bus just because your political and/or religious leader told you it was your solemn duty? My response? 'Fuck That!'

If some of your neighbors were shelling people with rockets from your apartment building's rooftop and those people being attacked were more than willing and able to bomb the entire city block to kindom come, how many of you would allow that? Wouldn't you head up to the roof with a shotgun and blow the morons away before they got you killed? I would. :p

See, it's that kind of self-interest that keeps peace alive. :)


Note that a lack of prospect helps a lot...

People that have much too lose are less likely to commit suicide

Note that a lack of prospect helps a lot...

People that have much too lose are less likely to commit suicide

I guess you'll explain why the majority of suicide bombers and Islamic terrorists these days are middle to upper class people.

It's not a lack of prospect.

Say you're a Hezbollah recruit. You run a small store (maybe a video store) in southern Lebanon. You have a wife and kids. Theoretically, you have no argument with Israel, since you're in Lebanon, a free and independent country. You vote in the elections.

What makes you want to get with your buddies and set up a Katushya launcher and fire rockets into Israel, knowing that if you do, the IAF will be around in about an hour to bomb the shit out of your neighborhood?

Mmm?

well Israel is sorter holding a peace in the fact that Arab states are less likely to go to war if they have there arch enemy at the door its also noted that the region is actually fairly peaceful considering the madness that could happen between Sunnis and Shia especially with Syria and Iran being able to do what they wish with the region should Israel not be there.

So what should we do well Israel should stop being so heavy handed in the middle east might cause less attacks other than that “time heals all wounds” so maybe in a few thousand years the middle east will be peaceful

On the subject of Israel.

It appears over the past decade that Israel has tried to come to peace agreements, only to have them suddenly reneged on by the Palestinians. Hezbollah, which is in all reality a proxy fighting force recruited, trained, and paid for by Iran, is contesting the ownership of Shebaa Farms, a piece of land that by the UN's own investigations and conclusions, never belonged to Lebanon, let alone Hezbollah.

In the political manifestos, declarations, etc., of both the Palestinians and Hezbollah, we find an unwillingness to accept peace - even if it is given. Hezbollah in particular says that even if they get Shebaa Farms, they will fight on until Israel is destroyed. While the Palestinian Authority officially recognized Israel, Hamas does not - and one may see in their maps of the area that Israel does not exist.

I'm not saying that Israel has been very nice either. This business of building settlements (depending on who is in the government this year), or targeted assassinations by guided missile doesn't help matters.

Israel's recent policy, up until this most recent conflict, seems to have been one of disengagement - let the Palestinians do their thing whereever they happen to be now, and count on the UN to enforce the northern Blue Line.

Well, that doesn't work either. Palestinians want Israel to continue to engage them, especially by violence, because it's good for PR. And the UN is toothless and worthless at enforcing anything.

If you wanted to work something out, say, a mutual "we leave you alone, you leave us alone" thing, and the Palestinians get the West Bank and Gaza, and Hezbollah gets southern Lebanon, and Israel stays inside its pre-1967 borders, I'm pretty sure Israel would sign the agreement, and stick to it as long as there were no suicide bombers, no rocket attacks, and no tunnels dug into Israel to kidnap people.

I can't say that there's anything anyone could say that would make the Palestinians or Hezbollah happy, other than the utter destruction of Israel, and the ethnic cleansing of the area of Jews, by death or fleeing.
Let me accept some of your points, and return to others later, it is true that Hizbu-llah, or Hamas do not want a permanent peace with Israel, at this point... Still, they have more goals and the destruction of Israel is not their primary goal. Like any organisation their first goals is continuation of the organisation. second, they are broad Islamist organisations that build schools and Hospitals for their people, their people are less important than continuation but more important than the destruction of Israel. Guarantee the security and prosperity of their people and the influence of their militant wings will fade...

Organisations will give up their goals if they can find new goals like the PLO...

I guess you'll explain why the majority of suicide bombers and Islamic terrorists these days are middle to upper class people.

It's not a lack of prospect.

Say you're a Hezbollah recruit. You run a small store (maybe a video store) in southern Lebanon. You have a wife and kids. Theoretically, you have no argument with Israel, since you're in Lebanon, a free and independent country. You vote in the elections.

What makes you want to get with your buddies and set up a Katushya launcher and fire rockets into Israel, knowing that if you do, the IAF will be around in about an hour to bomb the shit out of your neighborhood?

Mmm?

The middle and upper class terrorism does indeed exist, and has to do with lack of prospects relative to the level of education etc. This is especially the case with support for al-Qaida in the West.

The Hizbu-llah and Hamas have different characteristics

The ones with a small store and a wife are not the ones to fight Israel unless the store and the wife come under attack...

I once saw an interview with a militant from Hamas; he was saying that the shopkeepers are only concerned with making money, instead of fighting Israel.