NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright, we all know a litle about the unsuccessful attempt to smuggle liquid explosives aboard flights originating from the UK. Here's a thought I'd had while discussing this incident recently -

Human bodies are big bags of water, more or less. We all have bladders. Could not a determined person ingest liquid explosives (I say determined because presumably, ingesting an explosive substance would have a deleterious effect on the human body) immediately prior to boarding a flight, with an eye towards either passing the explosive liquid onboard for use, or to make themselves, their own bodies, into explosive devices?

Unfortunately, I have nothing even remotely close to the right kind of background to know whether this is at all possible or not. Anybody care to opine? Anybody actually possess the knowledge needed to know whether a dedicated terrorist could hope to do such a thing?

Alright, we all know a litle about the unsuccessful attempt to smuggle liquid explosives aboard flights originating from the UK. Here's a thought I'd had while discussing this incident recently -

Human bodies are big bags of water, more or less. We all have bladders. Could not a determined person ingest liquid explosives (I say determined because presumably, ingesting an explosive substance would have a deleterious effect on the human body) immediately prior to boarding a flight, with an eye towards either passing the explosive liquid onboard for use, or to make themselves, their own bodies, into explosive devices?

Unfortunately, I have nothing even remotely close to the right kind of background to know whether this is at all possible or not. Anybody care to opine? Anybody actually possess the knowledge needed to know whether a dedicated terrorist could hope to do such a thing?
Interesting thought … they would not necessarily have to ingest the fluid either, direct deposit to the bladder is possible as well … and they would only have to last long enough like that to get aboard and in the air.

I've been known to have explosive diarhea. But I haven't tried to get on a plane at the time, so I'm not sure.

Most explosive substances are so because they're highly reactive chemicals. Ingesting them would probably kill you.

I would guess if it was detonated inside the body cavity the body would act like a sandbag and muffle the explosion rendering it potentially worthless but messy - like jumping on a grenade.

There'd have to be some way to pass the stuff. But it's not like you could drink it and piss it out. Most likely it would poison you, and even if it didn't your kidneys wouldn't pass it.

I'm not sure if swallowing it in balloons or condoms would work either. I guess you could throw them up, but I wonder if it could be done in sufficient quantity?

Maybe you could take a laxative, but that would be messy, and not guaranteed to 'produce' the goods in time either.

I'm just guessing tho'.

Most explosive substances are so because they're highly reactive chemicals. Ingesting them would probably kill you.
That's what I had thought, too. But could they be retained long enough - just long enough - to be used as a weapon in-flight before succumbing to poisoning?

I'm guessing you wouldn't know specifics in this case. I was hoping someone with knowledge superior to yours and mine, re: liquid explosives might offer some keener insights.

I don't know to be honest. Surely couldn't a liquid explosive be stored in baggage and detonated by pressure?

n.b. I haven't got a bloody clue regarding explosives.

That's what I had thought, too. But could they be retained long enough - just long enough - to be used as a weapon in-flight before succumbing to poisoning?

I'm guessing you wouldn't know specifics in this case. I was hoping someone with knowledge superior to yours and mine, re: liquid explosives might offer some keener insights.
I think that the chemicals would either kill you within minutes, or be broken down by your bodies digestive system to the point where they were no longer explosives. Take alcohol, for an example. That can be used as an explosive, but it's not going to explode if you drink a bottle of whiskey then swallow a match.

That's what I had thought, too. But could they be retained long enough - just long enough - to be used as a weapon in-flight before succumbing to poisoning?
You planning something?
I think if it was anywhere near feasible, it would have been attempted already.

I don't know to be honest. Surely couldn't a liquid explosive be stored in baggage and detonated by pressure?

n.b. I haven't got a bloody clue regarding explosives.
baggage areas are usually pressurized (animals are kept there you know.)

ingesting the chemicals to produce the explosive reaction is tricky... what if there's a delay...

baggage areas are usually pressurized (animals are kept there you know.)

ingesting the chemicals to produce the explosive reaction is tricky... what if there's a delay...

It would be quite comic in the arrivals lounge really....:D

Actually, why not insert the chemicals into a certain orifice in a bag?

It would be quite comic in the arrivals lounge really....:D

Actually, why not insert the chemicals into a certain orifice in a bag?
See, I'd think that sorta thing'd show up in an x-ray.

this thread is reminding me of a sci fi show I saw once... can't remember the title, but the villians perfected a chemical that would mix with the stomach acid and interacts with the blood... turning the whole body into a bomb.

I don't know to be honest. Surely couldn't a liquid explosive be stored in baggage and detonated by pressure?
In baggage storage, yes, in hand luggage, no (because it never gets put under a load of pressure there).
n.b. I haven't got a bloody clue regarding explosives.
That might be for the best.

If someone is dedicated enough to blwo themselves up, there is little reason to think why they wouldn't let themselves be implanted with a bomb. I mean, if you even need to make space, just remove both kidneys. You can last a few days without them.
The problem is detonating it; and getting past the body scan if they have the foresight to up the security.

See, I'd think that sorta thing'd show up in an x-ray.

Are X-rays that prevalent? Certainly not in the UK, even at present. I can't say for the USA however.

Are X-rays that prevalent? Certainly not in the UK, even at present. I can't say for the USA however.
the bag that the chemical is in will show up.

the bag that the chemical is in will show up.

How many airports systematically X-ray passengers? None in the UK to my knowledge.

Alright, we all know a litle about the unsuccessful attempt to smuggle liquid explosives aboard flights originating from the UK. Here's a thought I'd had while discussing this incident recently -

Human bodies are big bags of water, more or less. We all have bladders. Could not a determined person ingest liquid explosives (I say determined because presumably, ingesting an explosive substance would have a deleterious effect on the human body) immediately prior to boarding a flight, with an eye towards either passing the explosive liquid onboard for use, or to make themselves, their own bodies, into explosive devices?

Unfortunately, I have nothing even remotely close to the right kind of background to know whether this is at all possible or not. Anybody care to opine? Anybody actually possess the knowledge needed to know whether a dedicated terrorist could hope to do such a thing?

Slate has a nice little article on this very question: http://www.slate.com/id/2147500

Essentially, the answer is most of the likely liquid explosives could be ingested in small quantities with only "minor" effects, but the most likely one (see below) would probably kill you in the quantities needed.


Most explosive substances are so because they're highly reactive chemicals. Ingesting them would probably kill you.
That's what I had thought, too. But could they be retained long enough - just long enough - to be used as a weapon in-flight before succumbing to poisoning?

I'm guessing you wouldn't know specifics in this case. I was hoping someone with knowledge superior to yours and mine, re: liquid explosives might offer some keener insights.

The mindset's got it pretty much correct here.

Here's what I know.

1) The news reports have pretty much agreed that the London bombers were planning to make or use a peroxide based explosive. [1 (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/081006dnintterrorplot.2508510.html)], [2 (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1225453,00.html)]

2) Peroxide based explosives (organic peroxides such as acetone peroxide or methyl ethyl ketone peroxide) are easy to make from common household chemicals. Most of these chemicals are quite nasty - drain cleaner, nail polish remover, rubbing alcohol, various solvents, and that sort of thing, none of which are reccomended for ingestion.

Someone mentioned an idea I had a while back – the self-financing project.
Sell your kidneys on the black market, while you're at it you could probably remove most of the intestines as well, and pack the resulting cavity with explosives. The money from selling the kidneys pays for the surgery, the explosives, and the plane ticket. The explosive could be detonated remotely with some electronic device (how about a fake hearing aid) – and you could pack enough into that kind of space that the resulting explosion would be devastatingly effective, even if you didn’t get on the plane and just blew up in the long and densely packed security lines waiting to get screened.

Without a kidney and some of your intestine you can still live long enough to wait to heal, so they would be able to tell you had surgery a little while ago if they made you take off your shirt, but otherwise wouldn’t have a clue. Take a fat guy and give him some lipo and you could have a huge bomb that would be virtually undetectable even with a strip and body cavity search – only an x-ray would be able to see it.

Even without surgery, you could store a very large amount of things rectally. It might take some training, but I don’t think someone going on a suicide mission would object that much to having their anus stretched. With a lot of training you could get some gigantic things up there. Exploding but plugs, coming to a store near you ;)

Even knives; if you wanted to get a knife on board (not even mentioning the huge holes in security) all you have to do is get a ceramic/plastic knife. They won’t set off a metal detector, but can be just as hard and sharp. Now to mention holes in security – I was coming back from a dive trip to Florida last year and had my BC (buoyancy compensator – basically an inflatable vest) in my carry on. This was fairly innocuous except that (as I found out when I got home) I had left my dive knife attached to it. Not only did it get passed the x-ray machine, they searched it by hand – yet still missed a knife with a 6 inch blade and a neon-yellow handle.

Of course the US government is looking into this – they have been pondering having a huge fluoroscope past which everyone has to walk (have you seen the movie Total Recall? So have some bureaucrats). Basically your bags get x-rayed and so do you, metal detectors are just not good enough anymore (lets all just ignore the fact that we are exposing people to dangerous levels of radiation every time we go to an airport – that’s not nearly as important as protecting us from the possibility of terrorists).

(lets all just ignore the fact that we are exposing people to dangerous levels of radiation every time we go to an airport – that’s not nearly as important as protecting us from the possibility of terrorists).

Hmmm... The amount ionising radiation one is exposed to on a transatlantic flight is 5-6 mrems (roughly the same as having a chest x-ray). I'm not sure how many mrems one would absorb from this fluoroscope, but it probably won't be as bad as one of the old shoe fitings with a fluoroscope (150 mrems, AFAIR) or the much worse CT scan (1000+ mrems). Unless you fly frequently, it probably won't be that great a health risk.

That'd be cool if you could have it where you secrete a harmless chemical and then spit it out, and upon contact with the open air it would react explosively.

Only in that case, it would explode in your face.

So you'd need a way to make it so the reaction was contained until the spit hits the target. In other words, a concussion type detonation. That would be possible with nanomachines. Or, more likely, some kind of shatterable pill or gelcap with the chemical inside. So you'd spit at someone, and they'd esplode.

Except now we're talking really small, bio/organic type grenades. Not as impressive really.

What about breathing fire? I mean like literally breathing fire. That'd be a good way to be a firefighter, maybe we can mutate people so they can breathe fire, just so they can fight fires.

I know! Turd-bombs!

That'd be cool if you could have it where you secrete a harmless chemical and then spit it out, and upon contact with the open air it would react explosively.

Only in that case, it would explode in your face.

So you'd need a way to make it so the reaction was contained until the spit hits the target. In other words, a concussion type detonation. That would be possible with nanomachines. Or, more likely, some kind of shatterable pill or gelcap with the chemical inside. So you'd spit at someone, and they'd esplode.

Except now we're talking really small, bio/organic type grenades. Not as impressive really.

What about breathing fire? I mean like literally breathing fire. That'd be a good way to be a firefighter, maybe we can mutate people so they can breathe fire, just so they can fight fires.

I know! Turd-bombs!


Bombardier Beetle!!!! :D (And funnily enough, they use peroxide too, but in a different reaction, which produces steam.)

WHat about some kind of suppository? One could theoretically be walking around with a decent hunk of explosive putty up one's plumbing and nobody would be the wiser. Only the creepy smile could give him away. :p

Another idea. Instead of silicone breast implants, one could use liquid explosive ones. Even with a full body scan, it wouldn't arouse much suspicion, because it's becoming an increasingly 'natural' place for implants.
It'll be a revival of the 'exploding breast implants' myth.

Personally I don't think it would work, but I'm in favor of force-feeding terrorists astrolite in the interest of safety. The Hydrazine content might not agree with their digestive system, but who cares?

Personally I don't think it would work, but I'm in favor of force-feeding terrorists astrolite in the interest of safety. The Hydrazine content might not agree with their digestive system, but who cares?

That works for me.

It's a pity, I'd've looked forward to reading people's posts at home last night, but I couldn't log in from home... I'm fairly sure the trouble isn't at my end, as I saw PM in the Technical forum this morning (I'm logged in from work right now), describing a problem very similar to my own.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to post here too often throughout the day. Thanks to all who have responded so far, though.

-DW.

It's a pity, I'd've looked forward to reading people's posts at home last night, but I couldn't log in from home... I'm fairly sure the trouble isn't at my end, as I saw PM in the Technical forum this morning (I'm logged in from work right now), describing a problem very similar to my own.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to post here too often throughout the day. Thanks to all who have responded so far, though.

-DW.
I couldn't log on at all yesterday. I thought I'd finally gotten my IP address banned from NS.

Personally I don't think it would work, but I'm in favor of force-feeding terrorists astrolite in the interest of safety. The Hydrazine content might not agree with their digestive system, but who cares?That works for me.

Hehehe. You guys are bad. In a very good way...

Personally I don't think it would work, but I'm in favor of force-feeding terrorists astrolite in the interest of safety. The Hydrazine content might not agree with their digestive system, but who cares?

yeah-with a funnel

I've been having thoughts about liquid explosives.
What liquid explosives were they carrying? It had to be material that was alread banned from being brought on a plane and if it was then our security measures are pretty damn shit for massive overreaction to items already banned.

I've been having thoughts about liquid explosives.
What liquid explosives were they carrying? It had to be material that was alread banned from being brought on a plane and if it was then our security measures are pretty damn shit for massive overreaction to items already banned.

In any case it had to be a LOT, this alone makes shoving it up your butt or down your throat in a bag possible. It takes a lot to bring down a plane, and that's why it had to be in luggage.

Although the worst thing would be shoving c4 up your butt and then blowing it up. Liquid devices won't work well in the body. It will kill you or be ineffective to bring down a plane.

I wonder if bomb sniffing dogs can smell C4 if its up your butt... hopefully they already considered this messy option and decided against it.

I've been having thoughts about liquid explosives.
What liquid explosives were they carrying? It had to be material that was alread banned from being brought on a plane and if it was then our security measures are pretty damn shit for massive overreaction to items already banned.

The exact stuff hasn't been specified for security reasons, but I went into what they were likely carrying in some detail just a few posts above...

Peroxide, nail polish remover, and drain cleaner are the most likely reagents. And AFAIK they weren't banned, even though the end product (acetone peroxide aka TATP) is a favorite of both beginner kitchen chemist bombers and terrorists and is probably the explosive used last year in the 7/7 bombings.

The exact stuff hasn't been specified for security reasons, but I went into what they were likely carrying in some detail just a few posts above...

Peroxide, nail polish remover, and drain cleaner are the most likely reagents. And AFAIK they weren't banned, even though the end product (acetone peroxide aka TATP) is a favorite of both beginner kitchen chemist bombers and terrorists and is probably the explosive used last year in the 7/7 bombings.

That would make sense, but they tried to get the stuff onboard in such large quantities that it had to be obvious. Its a good thing they caught it. :)

The exact stuff hasn't been specified for security reasons, but I went into what they were likely carrying in some detail just a few posts above...

Peroxide, nail polish remover, and drain cleaner are the most likely reagents. And AFAIK they weren't banned, even though the end product (acetone peroxide aka TATP) is a favorite of both beginner kitchen chemist bombers and terrorists and is probably the explosive used last year in the 7/7 bombings.
Drain cleaner? I thought you need an acid. Drain cleaner is a strong base. It's KOH or NaOH IIRC.

I've been having thoughts about liquid explosives.
What liquid explosives were they carrying? It had to be material that was alread banned from being brought on a plane and if it was then our security measures are pretty damn shit for massive overreaction to items already banned.
They weren't carrying anything, they were arrested in their houses.

Eraclea']I wonder if bomb sniffing dogs can smell C4 if its up your butt... hopefully they already considered this messy option and decided against it.

We should probably find out, but who are we gonna get to test it? :p

Drain cleaner? I thought you need an acid. Drain cleaner is a strong base. It's KOH or NaOH IIRC.

You do need an acid. Not all drain cleaners are base. Sulfuric and hydrocloric acid are pretty common drain cleaners as well, and what I was refering to.

Eraclea']That would make sense, but they tried to get the stuff onboard in such large quantities that it had to be obvious. Its a good thing they caught it. :)

Not necessarily. As I understand it, they were planning to carry it on in "sports drink" bottles.

I'm not sure if the quantities they were planning on bringing were sufficient to bring down the jets...

Not necessarily. As I understand it, they were planning to carry it on in "sports drink" bottles.

I'm not sure if the quantities they were planning on bringing were sufficient to bring down the jets...


maybe they planned to breach the cockpit door

Not necessarily. As I understand it, they were planning to carry it on in "sports drink" bottles.

I'm not sure if the quantities they were planning on bringing were sufficient to bring down the jets...

Unlikely unless it was a LARGE amount, and sadly it would cause deaths either way. Liquid explosives.... just one more thing desperate people try nowadays.

Not necessarily. As I understand it, they were planning to carry it on in "sports drink" bottles.

I'm not sure if the quantities they were planning on bringing were sufficient to bring down the jets...

It doesn't take much to blow a man-sized hole in the side of any passenger aircraft.

Whether or not that brings down the airliner is another question. I remember reading about one bombed airliner that only suffered a few casualties (including the person sitting on the bomb, who was blown out of the aircraft) that landed safely.

Certainly not something you want happenning at 540 knots at 35,000 feet over the mid-Atlantic.

2 April 86, TWA 727, near Athens, Greece: A bomb exploded in the cabin area, blowing a hole in the fuselage and causing four passengers to be sucked out of the aircraft to their deaths. The aircraft was able to land safely.

It doesn't take much to blow a man-sized hole in the side of any passenger aircraft.

Whether or not that brings down the airliner is another question. I remember reading about one bombed airliner that only suffered a few casualties (including the person sitting on the bomb, who was blown out of the aircraft) that landed safely.

Certainly not something you want happenning at 540 knots at 35,000 feet over the mid-Atlantic.

I think they knew this, so that's why they planned it for the mid-atlantic.

We should probably find out, but who are we gonna get to test it? :p
I volunteer Eraclea.

Most explosive substances are so because they're highly reactive chemicals. Ingesting them would probably kill you.

That alone would not be a deterrent...deterent.....deterrant......oh screw it not enough to make the farging bastidges not do it.

I volunteer Eraclea.

Why me!?

Eraclea']Why me!?
Well - you were the one to suggest it, after all...

That's what I had thought, too. But could they be retained long enough - just long enough - to be used as a weapon in-flight before succumbing to poisoning?

I'm guessing you wouldn't know specifics in this case. I was hoping someone with knowledge superior to yours and mine, re: liquid explosives might offer some keener insights.

Are you serious? Have you ever seen the lines at security checkpoints in airports?

That alone would not be a deterrent...deterent.....deterrant......oh screw it not enough to make the farging bastidges not do it.
I'm forced to agree. I mean, if we're talking about a determined sort of person - suicide bomber types come to mind - I don't think personal injury enters into it.
Are you serious? Have you ever seen the lines at security checkpoints in airports?
Sure have. I'm thinking this'd be something our theoretical bad citizen could ingest while standing in line.

I'm forced to agree. I mean, if we're talking about a determined sort of person - suicide bomber types come to mind - I don't think personal injury enters into it.

Sure have. I'm thinking this'd be something our theoretical bad citizen could ingest while standing in line.

They could conceivably inject something into their bladder or smuggle liquids in capsules in their rectums.

That alone would not be a deterrent...deterent.....deterrant......oh screw it not enough to make the farging bastidges not do it.
Let me clarify: it'd probably kill you, very quickly. Minutes at most. Try getting through customs and onto the plane in a few minutes, while your stomach is being melted.

Let me clarify: it'd probably kill you, very quickly. Minutes at most. Try getting through customs and onto the plane in a few minutes, while your stomach is being melted.
Could you line your stomach wall with something like Pepto-Bismol first, d'you think?

It would be a waste of time. As well-joked-upon as they are in movies and the media, cavity searches in airports are hardly a commonly-used tool, and there are no full-body X-rays. A terrorist willing to martyr himself would find it much easier to simply swallow several small, wrapped-up solid explosives and carry a radio-frequency trigger disguised as a common electronic device on his person or in a carry-on bag. The endless difficulties of ingesting and then passing (or not) liquid explosives make them pointless - poisoning, difficulty in passing, difficulty in triggering, contamination by bodily fluids, etc.

Could you line your stomach wall with something like Pepto-Bismol first, d'you think?

Nope. PB won't provide protection against the three ingredients in the most likely explosive.

Hydrogen peroxide is corrosive. More importantly, it decomposes into water an oxygen gas in the GI tract, and the resulting volume would rupture the bowels. No fun.

Acetone, in the quantities needed, would cause spontanious vomiting.

And sulfuric acid? AFAIK that's fatal even in the small amounts needed for this. (IIRC, 3-5 ml is fatal.)

The other possibilities are equally noxious or fatal. (Hence the joking above about force feeding terrorists Astrolite.)

They could conceivably inject something into their bladder or smuggle liquids in capsules in their rectums.

Ummm... no, injecting the things I just went into above into the bladder is a bad idea.



Not necessarily. As I understand it, they were planning to carry it on in "sports drink" bottles.

I'm not sure if the quantities they were planning on bringing were sufficient to bring down the jets...

It doesn't take much to blow a man-sized hole in the side of any passenger aircraft.

Whether or not that brings down the airliner is another question. I remember reading about one bombed airliner that only suffered a few casualties (including the person sitting on the bomb, who was blown out of the aircraft) that landed safely.

Certainly not something you want happenning at 540 knots at 35,000 feet over the mid-Atlantic.

Exactly so. Aloha Airlines Flight 243, anybody? Yes, I know that wasn't caused by bomb damage, but it shows how mauch damage a commercial passenger jet can take and keep flying.

(For anyone who may have forgotten or have been too young to remember, that was the 737 that survived a structural failure in which the "roof" of the aircraft from just behind the cockpit to the wings was torn off. There was only 1 fatality.)

Besides, why worry about liquid explosives? VX or sarin would work just as well. No people to fly plane = plane crashes.

If maximum death toll was desirable, it would be far simpler to release an airborne virus into the departure hall. Or have a plant working as a janitor stick it into the vents.

But I suppose it doesn't make for much of an impact.

If it takes so much work to get through the airport security, wouldn't it be easier to just hijack a food cart? It's got enough room for guns, explosives and other stuff, right?

As well-joked-upon as they are in movies and the media, cavity searches in airports are hardly a commonly-used tool, and there are no full-body X-rays.There's full body scans on some lines, to stop drugtrafficers that use their digestive tract for smuggling purposes.. It'd pick up on any explosives hidden in the same way.

VX or sarin would work just as well. No people to fly plane = plane crashes.Well,t here's also the automatic pilot. And some planes can theoretically land automatic, I think.

If maximum carnage and devastation is the aim of a potential terrorist, then wouldn’t it be far simpler to pack two large suitcases with a C4 nail/B-bearing bomb and detonate it in the overcrowded airport security check in lines?

Personally I believe that this liquid explosive threat is absurd and quite desperate way for the governments to further strip their citizens’ rights away. This entire terror plot is a load of horse droppings.

A far better and possibly more effective way to attack and bring down a plane may be to pose as maintenance staff and smuggle a bomb on board.

Although passing for flight attendant staff to conceal weapons and explosives in the food/drink carts on the plane is a far better way to blow up an airliner.

If maximum carnage and devastation is the aim of a potential terrorist, then wouldn’t it be far simpler to pack two large suitcases with a C4 nail/B-bearing bomb and detonate it in the overcrowded airport security check in lines?

I'm glad you're not a terrorist. :p

I'm glad you're not a terrorist. :p
Thanks ... :)

With just a bit of creativity the so called terrorists could and probably will outsmart any technology or security measures meant to "protect" us the common citizens, passangers and so on... ;)

this thread is reminding me of a sci fi show I saw once... can't remember the title, but the villians perfected a chemical that would mix with the stomach acid and interacts with the blood... turning the whole body into a bomb.

Yeah... that reminds me. Has anyone seen the movie "Live Wire"?

That has a sort of liquid explosive thing, with a guy in a restaurant being blown up after drinking some water/explosive .? ;)

I always wondered if this could be done in real life... hmm... Anyone?

Unfortunately, I have nothing even remotely close to the right kind of background to know whether this is at all possible or not. Anybody care to opine? Anybody actually possess the knowledge needed to know whether a dedicated terrorist could hope to do such a thing?
Well who knows how their bodies would digest the liquid. I imagine that they would be violently sick, which would foil the plan. Also, aren't electrics required to spark the mixture?

Perhaps they could inject it into their bladders?

Well,t here's also the automatic pilot. And some planes can theoretically land automatic, I think.

I saw the video of that in action. The plane overshot the runway and landed in the forest with predictable results. I think I'll stick with flesh and blood pilots thank you very much.

I saw the video of that in action. The plane overshot the runway and landed in the forest with predictable results. I think I'll stick with flesh and blood pilots thank you very much.

And the plane doesn't need to crash to fulfil the aim of causing the deaths of all the passengers, if they have all been poisoned by VX.