NationStates Jolt Archive

It looks like it's going to start in the UK now.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2313135,00.html

THE Government is discussing with airport operators plans to introduce a screening system that allows security staff to focus on those passengers who pose the greatest risk.

The passenger-profiling technique involves selecting people who are behaving suspiciously, have an unusual travel pattern or, most controversially, have a certain ethnic or religious background.

The system would be much more sophisticated than simply picking out young men of Asian appearance. But it would cause outrage in the Muslim community because its members would be far more likely to be selected for extra checks.

Officials at the Department for Transport (DfT) have discussed the practicalities of introducing such a system with airport operators, including BAA. They believe that it would be more effective at identifying potential terrorists than the existing random searches.

Sounds like they're going to do the El Al method. It's about time.

It's proven to be a far more effective method (El Al's distinctive record of only one hijacking in 1968) than the current idiocy that's causing queues at the airport.

this debate is already worn out....

Thank the bloody lord!

Scream "Apartheidist", "Racist" and "stereotyping" to the ends of the earth, but I maintain that screening is effective, and similarly segregated travel a remedial measure that would be preclude any justification for terror.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/funny.jpg

its all stats

who has been posing the greatest threat to airlines recently?

so why not watch those people more

Thank the bloody lord!

Scream "Apartheidist", "Racist" and "stereotyping" to the ends of the earth, but I maintain that screening is effective, and similarly segregated travel a remedial measure that would be preclude any justification for terror.

profiling, yes but segregation!? this begs the question, What would happen if you replaced the group Arabs with Blacks in this scenario?

It's proven to be a far more effective method (El Al's distinctive record of only one hijacking in 1968) than the current idiocy that's causing queues at the airport.

Tell me, how many actual plane hijackings have there been in the UK, ever?

its all stats

who has been posing the greatest threat to airlines recently?

so why not watch those people more


I will make one comment

Don't ask who, ask why (a minute part of) young European males would come to this and you will find why this will be counter productive, for it may well increase this tiny group. A small increase could do much harm...

profiling, yes but segregation!? this begs the question, What would happen if you replaced the group Arabs with Blacks in this scenario?

Nothing whatsoever. Segregation would differentiate according to race, not the idiosyncrasies of each race.

It looks like it's going to start in the UK now.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2313135,00.html



Sounds like they're going to do the El Al method. It's about time.

It's proven to be a far more effective method (El Al's distinctive record of only one hijacking in 1968) than the current idiocy that's causing queues at the airport.

Finally, someone acknowledges the elephant in the living room! Profiling is absolutely necessary and should have been implemented five years ago.

Let's hope the US wakes up and does likewise.

And if the "Muslim community" doesn't like it, they can start looking in a mirror and cleaning up their own houses. Or, they can stop flying. Or (preferably), they can go back to whatever Third-World hellhole they (or their parents, grandparents, etc.) first emerged from.

Finally, someone acknowledges the elephant in the living room! Profiling is absolutely necessary and should have been implemented five years ago.

Let's hope the US wakes up and does likewise.

And if the "Muslim community" doesn't like it, they can start looking in a mirror and cleaning up their own houses. Or, they can stop flying. Or (preferably), they can go back to whatever Third-World hellhole they (or their parents, grandparents, etc.) first emerged from.
:fluffle:

Nothing whatsoever. Segregation would differentiate according to race, not the idiosyncrasies of each race.

Thats exactly what the racial segregation back in the 50s and 60s was about, as well as the Apartheid, I'm sure LBJ's civil rights act covers airline travel

Sounds like they're going to do the El Al method. It's about time.

It's proven to be a far more effective method (El Al's distinctive record of only one hijacking in 1968) than the current idiocy that's causing queues at the airport.

Do you actually know what El Al does?

Thats exactly what the racial segregation back in the 50s and 60s was about, as well as the Apartheid, I'm sure LBJ's civil rights act covers airline travel

However, legislation can be amended, and the justification ought to be self-evident.

However, legislation can be amended, and the justification ought to be self-evident.

what we should take the civil rights act and add

*void when pertaining to a non christian

seperation of church and state my ass

...And if the "Muslim community" doesn't like it, they can start looking in a mirror and cleaning up their own houses. Or, they can stop flying. Or (preferably), they can go back to whatever Third-World hellhole they (or their parents, grandparents, etc.) first emerged from.

They used to say very similar things about the Irish, the Italians and the Chinese when large numbers immigrated here in the late 19th, early 20th...*

"Profiling" may have some logic...but this attitude is disgusting...

*What about blacks? People have been using that argument since 1865. And it's amazing that some still do today.

what we should take the civil rights act and add

*void when pertaining to a non christian

Bilge.

I'm neither Christian nor American. My primary concerns are the safety of the majority, and negation of aviant terrorism, and segregation would effect this end.

Bilge.

I'm neither Christian nor American. My primary concerns are the safety of the majority, and negation of aviant terrorism, and segregation would effect this end.

My primary concern is for the safety of democracy and people like you who seek to destroy it, this is the closest time since its beginning that the american experiment has come to failure, not from some outward enemy but from the fear and cowarice of its own citizens

Do not let these maniacs shephard you into destroying that which you love the most!

My primary concern is for the safety of democracy and people like you who seek to destroy it, this is the closest time since its beginning that the american experiment has come to failure, not from some outward enemy but from the fear and cowarice of its own citizens

Do not let these maniacs shephard you into destroying that which you love the most!

I hardly love democracy. It might be the most operative system yet employed, but it hardly inspires adoration.

Incidentally, why on earth would segregated air travel constitute the end of democracy?

I will ask one more time: Why arent we profiling white christian republicans because two of them blew up a building in Oklahoma City?

I hardly love democracy. It might be the most operative system yet employed, but it hardly inspires adoration.

not surprising.......move to china or better yet, North Korea

Incidentally, why on earth would segregated air travel constitute the end of democracy?

Liberty, EQUALITY, Justice, Diversity-thats democracy not this utilitarian filth your spewing

They used to say very similar things about the Irish, the Italians and the Chinese when large numbers immigrated here in the late 19th, early 20th...*

"Profiling" may have some logic...but this attitude is disgusting...

*What about blacks? People have been using that argument since 1865. And it's amazing that some still do today.

You can't even begin to compare the discrimination that blacks, chinese and irish suffered in the US to what muslims experience. I would argue even the Italians historically had it far worse.

Especially the chinese and the blacks.

not surprising.......move to china



Liberty, EQUALITY, Justice, Diversity-thats democracy not this utilitarian filth your spewing

Utilitarian? Moi? A tad harsh really.

However, to what extent can something be temporarily compromised to ensure its survival?

You can't even begin to compare the discrimination that blacks, chinese and irish suffered in the US to what muslims experience. I would argue even the Italians historically had it far worse.

Especially the chinese and the blacks.

You are right of course. I was simply making a connection, primarily to counter-argue the attitudes expressed by New Mitanni.

And as for the rest. I can only hope that it doesn't get as far as it did with other minority groups.

Utilitarian? Moi? A tad harsh really.

However, to what extent can something be temporarily compromised to ensure its survival?
Compromising freedom for the sake of freedom.
It's like having sex for virginity.

Compromising freedom for the sake of freedom.
It's like having sex for virginity.

...Wait a minute here...

...I'm trying to think of a way the could even REMOTELY make that work.

Utilitarian? Moi? A tad harsh really.


However, to what extent can something be temporarily compromised to ensure its survival?

temperarily suspending the Bill of Rights only ensures american democracies' destruction

It's about time.

advocate of torture and genocide in favor of racial profiling too; video at ten

...Wait a minute here...

...I'm trying to think of a way the could even REMOTELY make that work.

You cant, thats the point.

Finally, someone acknowledges the elephant in the living room! Profiling is absolutely necessary and should have been implemented five years ago.

Let's hope the US wakes up and does likewise.

And if the "Muslim community" doesn't like it, they can start looking in a mirror and cleaning up their own houses. Or, they can stop flying. Or (preferably), they can go back to whatever Third-World hellhole they (or their parents, grandparents, etc.) first emerged from.

This is the problem with this debate.

Profiling works. No matter what your egalitarian ideals are, or how close we come to achieving them, statisitics tells us that profiling works. I don't want to believe it works, but until evidence proves otherwise, I will go with the evidence that it does.

But you are being a racist moron when you say that the Muslim community are the only people to blame for the War on Terror. And telling people to go back where they or their predecessors came from makes your entire argument weaker.

The people opposing profiling merely have to quote your post to show how profiling is supoorted by racist idiots. You just made their argument stronger.

Moron.

Profiling works. No matter what your egalitarian ideals are, or how close we come to achieving them, statisitics tells us that profiling works.

what statistics would those be?

and define "works"

I agree with heavy screening but I don't see why they wouldn't screen everybody with equal scrutiny. It's not like there aren't unscrupulous people of other ethnicities. So what if there is a higher threat from arabic men... that doesn't mean that caucasians, mexicans, blacks or whatever are pure and free of hatred, violent and suicidal tendencies or mental illness.

You cant, thats the point.

And that's why it's funny.

what statistics would those be?

and define "works"

works= succeeds in preventing terrorist attacks

and to be fair you can't deny that arab terrorists have a fetish for airplanes, they have for the past 40 years

not surprising.......move to china or better yet, North Korea
Democracy isn't what you have been led to believe that it is. Properly, democracy is the tyranny of the majority. In fact, as the article points out, a world-wide democracy would have the Chinese and Indians running things.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/hermann-hoppe2.html

haven't muslims just called for shariah law in the daily mail and the times?

works= succeeds in preventing terrorist attacks

and to be fair you can't deny that arab terrorists have a fetish for airplanes, they have for the past 40 years

so what are the numbers for hijackings and bombings of planes by ethnic group over the past 3 decades or so? absolute and in proportion to population size, preferably.

I will ask one more time: Why arent we profiling white christian republicans because two of them blew up a building in Oklahoma City?
Actually, Tim McVeigh wasn't a Republican. He was anti-government, which places him either as an anarchist or as an extreme libertarian.

Maybe it's because they haven't repeated it in over 10 years. Muslims keep trying.

Do you actually know what El Al does?
Yes. And it's a combination of profiling and questioning.

Extremely, extremely effective.

haven't muslims just called for shariah law in the daily mail and the times?

First whenever a muslim calls for Shari'a law it reaches the papers

Second if you would ask any religious muslim if he or she would like to implement the Shari'a, you would likely get an affermative answer.

Now if you were to ask how it should be implemented then you would get all kinds of answers and many interpretations.

When non-muslims hear shari'a they think of the interpretation that allows the cutting of hands etc...

While Muslims actually differ greatly on what the Shari'a means, yet saying I am against the Shari'a, is like saying I am no Muslim.

The next time you hear a Muslim say I want to implement the Shari'a ask what he or she means by that.

Aren't we putting the cart before the horse here?

Why not segregate the Americans? Or better yet, right-wing Americans....They are a lot of the problem, lets face it. Why not put them on a seperate plane? Or better yet, put them on the same planes as the chief suspects....

what statistics would those be?

and define "works"

Gald you asked, because after I posted, I asked myself the same question. I googled it and came up with this:
http://mac10.umc.pitt.edu/u/FMPro?-db=ustory&-lay=a&-format=d.html&storyid=2293&-Find
which concludes that racial profiling is not effective in preventing crime in New York City.

and from the article in the OP:
“There is a very real danger that the counter-terrorism label is also being used by other law-enforcement agencies to the effect that there is a real risk of criminalising minority communities.”

Sir Rod Eddington, former chief executive of British Airways, criticised the random nature of security searches. He said that it was irrational to subject a 75-year-old grandmother to the same checks as a 25-year-old man who had just paid for his ticket with cash.

Philip Baum, an aviation security consultant, said that profiling should focus on ruling out people who obviously posed no risk rather than picking out Asian or Arabs.

So, it would appear that the UK authorities are aware of the problems associated with racial profiling.

I was unable to find evidence that non-racial profiling does work. So I will change my mind. Until evidence shows me otherwise, I will believe that profiling may work, but has not been proven to do so, and it has definite and provable problems associated with it.

Maybe it's because they haven't repeated it in over 10 years. Muslims keep trying.

except, of course, the only significant groups who have been caught with chemical weapons and the like in the united states in the past 6 years have been made up of white dudes. and we keep catching them trying to acquire more, blow up buildings, shoot up community centers and schools, etc. don't let your racist fucktardiness blind you, genocide fan.

Gald you asked, because after I posted, I asked myself the same question. I googled it and came up with this:
http://mac10.umc.pitt.edu/u/FMPro?-db=ustory&-lay=a&-format=d.html&storyid=2293&-Find
which concludes that racial profiling is not effective in preventing crime in New York City.

and from the article in the OP:


So, it would appear that the UK authorities are aware of the problems associated with racial profiling.

I was unable to find evidence that non-racial profiling does work. So I will change my mind. Until evidence shows me otherwise, I will believe that profiling may work, but has not been proven to do so, and it has definite and provable problems associated with it.


Works for El Al. Although there have been many attempts, there was only one airliner hijacked, and that was in 1968, before their profiling started.

Actually, Tim McVeigh wasn't a Republican. He was anti-government, which places him either as an anarchist or as an extreme libertarian.

He was a registered republican.

except, of course, the only significant groups who have been caught with chemical weapons and the like in the united states in the past 6 years have been made up of white dudes. and we keep catching them trying to acquire more, blow up buildings, shoot up community centers and schools, etc. don't let your racist fucktardiness blind you, genocide fan.

This, coming from the one that replied to everyone in Isreal being killed w/ "Well, then they didn't belong there in the first place did they?" and then refused to say the same about the people in Jordan.

He was a registered republican.
Isn't what his writings say. Can't be someone in favor of forcibly overthrowing the government and be a Republican.

I bet most of the Muslims arrested in Britain voted. I bet that even some of them may have voted Labour.

You have to look at the underlying belief system.

I don't see any Republican doctrine that advocates putting bombs aboard airliners, or blowing up US government buildings.

Plenty of Islamic literature that says we should kill all the non-Muslims, though.

And if the "Muslim community" doesn't like it, they can start looking in a mirror and cleaning up their own houses. Or, they can stop flying. Or (preferably), they can go back to whatever Third-World hellhole they (or their parents, grandparents, etc.) first emerged from.
1) You are coming too close to trolling,

2) What if they and their parents and grandparents were born in the West?

3) I know quite a few who came to my country because my countrymen's educational standards are sinking like a boulder dropped off a cliff.

Yes. And it's a combination of profiling and questioning.

Extremely, extremely effective.

No it is not profiling. They question each passenger. Along with security on flight that consists of ex Isreali Air Force pilots who are armed and a crew who are also trained in self defence.

All this is what makes El Al a hard target for terror groups. This combination makes it nearly impossible for them to action an attack against El Al.

Profiling just 'Arabs' they do not not do.

You are starting to become tedious.

This, coming from the one that replied to everyone in Isreal being killed w/ "Well, then they didn't belong there in the first place did they?" and then refused to say the same about the people in Jordan.

where did i ever say that?

Works for El Al. Although there have been many attempts, there was only one airliner hijacked, and that was in 1968, before their profiling started.

No. It works for El Al in one sense only, and that's preventing hijackings. It does not help them with overcrowded airports, nor does it prevent terrorism anywhere outside the plane. Israel can only do this due to the fact that Arabs in Israel are second class citizens, and the whole attitude that Israel unilaterally reserves the right to treat Arabs like this can be seen as a cause of terrorism in the Middle east.

You argument is in deep kimchi.

So, it would appear that the UK authorities are aware of the problems associated with racial profiling.
Not least because one of the men arrested in the recent plot was white.

That tends to bring it home to you.

Profiling just 'Arabs' they do not not do.

You are starting to become tedious.

See how wrong you are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al#Security

First whenever a muslim calls for Shari'a law it reaches the papers

Second if you would ask any religious muslim if he or she would like to implement the Shari'a, you would likely get an affermative answer.

Third, if you ask many American evangelicals about the kinds of laws they would like to implement, you're going to find a striking similarity to Shari'a law. I say we clean our own home before we bitch about other people's housekeeping.

where did i ever say that?


Edit: My apologies. It was Sovietstan that said that.

All passengers are classified on a basic 3 tier threat scale: Israelis and Jews are usually classified as the lowest threat, Westerners are usually classified as medium level threats, and Arabs (particularly males) are usually classified as high threat.

Rubiconic, profiling Arabs is definitely part of it.

Works for El Al. Although there have been many attempts, there was only one airliner hijacked, and that was in 1968, before their profiling started.
Sure it works...

if you have a conflict with a group and you segregate that group, this group will not attack where it cannot come.

Sadly these practices also increase the number of this group that will no longer feel part of your society and will be hostile to you...

Only a small increase in hatred and lack of belonging in the young and the rash living in your society may cause additional attacks.

No, not on commercial airliners...
Soft targets abound...

Minorities that feel accepted in our societies will be unlikely to attack these societies...

------
A "war on terror" is a war of ideas, and is won by winning the hearts minds of the other.

Not least because one of the men arrested in the recent plot was white.

That tends to bring it home to you.

indeed. even if it were true that islamic peoples were disproportionately likely to hijack planes (and if anyone has the actual statistics on it, i'd really like to see them), it isn't as if the islamic world doesn't extend all over the eurafriasian supercontinent, covering a huge number of ethnic groups, skin tones, languages, etc.

Rubiconic, profiling Arabs is definitely part of it.

dude ....

All passengers are classified on a basic 3 tier threat scale: Israelis and Jews are usually classified as the lowest threat, Westerners are usually classified as medium level threats, and Arabs (particularly males) are usually classified as high threat.

they are profiling EVERYONE! Not just Arabs...and they still interview EVERYONE

good grief!

Passengers are asked to report three hours before takeoff. They are checked at a security barrier on the road to the terminal. Inside, they and their baggage are checked by a trained team. El Al security procedures also require that all passengers be interviewed individually prior to boarding, allowing El Al staff to identify possible security threats.

This is why El Al are a hard target.

Third, if you ask many American evangelicals about the kinds of laws they would like to implement, you're going to find a striking similarity to Shari'a law. I say we clean our own home before we bitch about other people's housekeeping.

True, though my post looks quite awfull with the last part removed :D

Minorities that feel accepted in our societies will be unlikely to attack these societies...


Sorry, doesn't work. Bin Laden didn't have any trouble recruiting hundreds of thousands of followers long before Bush was in office, waging war.

The UK has been bending over backwards to be far more accepting of Muslims than the US - and the radical Muslims see this as a weakness to be exploited.

If soft targets abound, I'm sure we'll eventually be forced to put them in camps.

Don't say I didn't tell you this would happen.

Rubiconic, profiling Arabs is definitely part of it.

form your link:

At least six (formerly two) undercover agents accompany each international El Al flight, sitting amongst passengers whilst holstering firearms. All El Al pilots are former Israeli Air Force fighter pilots, and all El Al flight crew members are trained in hand to hand combat. In fact, most El Al employees have served in the Israel Defence Force (since national service is compulsory in Israel for most citizens).

Passengers are asked to report three hours before takeoff. They are checked at a security barrier on the road to the terminal. Inside, they and their baggage are checked by a trained team. El Al security procedures also require that all passengers be interviewed individually prior to boarding, allowing El Al staff to identify possible security threats. All passengers are classified on a basic 3 tier threat scale: Israelis and Jews are usually classified as the lowest threat, Westerners are usually classified as medium level threats, and Arabs (particularly males) are usually classified as high threat.

At the check-in counter, ground staff scrutinise the passport and the ticket. They won't accept a ticket without a sticker from the security checkers. Once through passport control, where the person's name is checked through a computer, the person and their hand luggage go through rigorous screening. In addition, all luggage must pass through a decompression chamber; this simulates pressures during flight which may be triggers for explosives [1]. El Al is the only airline in the world that passes all luggage through this special chamber.

On board, El Al airliners have double doors to keep passengers away from the pilots. A secret password or a code will allow one access through the doors. Only after the first door closes behind you, will the second door open. Only if the captain identifies a person, one can get in through the second door. There are reinforced steel floors separating the passenger cabin from the baggage hold [2].

The El Al fleet is also the only commercial airline fleet in the world to be equipped with anti-missile countermeasures.

Profiling Arabs is a miniscule part of it. You and I would have to go through the same security procedures as a young Arab male. It is those security procedures which work for El Al. If they did the exact same thing without racial profiling, their system would be just as effective.

Sure it works...

if you have a conflict with a group and you segregate that group, this group will not attack where it cannot come.

Sadly these practices also increase the number of this group that will no longer feel part of your society and will be hostile to you...

Only a small increase in hatred and lack of belonging in the young and the rash living in your society may cause additional attacks.

No, not on commercial airliners...
Soft targets abound...

Minorities that feel accepted in our societies will be unlikely to attack these societies...

------
A "war on terror" is a war of ideas, and is won by winning the hearts minds of the other.

http://www.cagle.com/politicalcartoons/pccartoons/archives/olle.asp?Action=GetImage (click "get image i dunno whats wrong...)


'nuff said

dude ....

All passengers are classified on a basic 3 tier threat scale: Israelis and Jews are usually classified as the lowest threat, Westerners are usually classified as medium level threats, and Arabs (particularly males) are usually classified as high threat.

they are profiling EVERYONE! Not just Arabs...and they still interview EVERYONE

good grief!

Passengers are asked to report three hours before takeoff. They are checked at a security barrier on the road to the terminal. Inside, they and their baggage are checked by a trained team. El Al security procedures also require that all passengers be interviewed individually prior to boarding, allowing El Al staff to identify possible security threats.

This is why El Al are a hard target.

More here
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10396216

They are not afraid to profile, and they are not afraid to ask questions, and if they get a bad feeling about you, they WILL find out or you WON'T be flying.

This is what the British are about to do. Profiling and questioning. Which is what they should do.

More here
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10396216

They are not afraid to profile, and they are not afraid to ask questions, and if they get a bad feeling about you, they WILL find out or you WON'T be flying.

This is what the British are about to do. Profiling and questioning. Which is what they should do.

Do you actually know what 'profiling' is because so far you have shown a major lack of understanding.

All you do is rehash silly talking points. Is that what you are? A talking head? If you are not then please show some evidence of your ability to think for yourself.

what statistics would those be?

and define "works"

The statistics of looking the hell around you. Who have been the most common group to do terrorist attacks lately. The little green men from mars?

Wait... They were all of Middle Eastern decent...
Wait you can't consider that there is a higher chance that the more potental terrorrists could be of Middle Eastern decent right? It's just a myth right?

Racial Profiling is wrong, and it's a horrible thing to happn...:(

But I will admit that it seems to be accurate.

This is why El Al are a hard target.
And that's why they have a relatively low passenger volume, and depend on repeated business from the same people.

Some national airlines might have the ability to absorb the massive financial losses and restructuring that would follow the massive drop in passenger numbers resulting from any such move. Smaller airlines, commuter airlines in particular, would die, and I doubt anything would quickly replace them, because that whole business model could cease to be viable.

Great news for the environment and our dependence on light oil.

Bad news for anyone trying to claim that terrorists did not just wipe out dozens of companies and billions of euros of business, even by failing at the planning stage.

The El Al "What do you usually have for breakfast? What did you have for breakfast this morning? Did you take a taxi or a bus? Are you a homosexual? ... " system of questioning only works in a culture where the military is a uniquely trusted public institution. It wouldn't work in Europe, because over here, people really are obstinate enough to say "Sod this for a lark", get their tickets refunded and watch the airline company's shares tank.

If soft targets abound, I'm sure we'll eventually be forced to put them in camps.

At which point pass out the weapons because the fucking revolution will be ON. Unlike the cowards who did NOTHING when Americans Japanese decent were put into camps there will be WAR over this breach of the constitution.

haven't muslims just called for shariah law in the daily mail and the times?
If that's true then those muslims can get the **** out. The world doesn't need those sorts.

Becuase Muslim terrorists have never defeated racial profiling before. What with having women become suicide bombers and all.

Enhanced, heavy-handed, reactionary security measures will not make us safe.
Profilingi will definately not make us safe.

The only thing that can possibly increase safety is mass automation of safety procedures and scanning. The smallest number of people involved in security with the most number of machines able to scan everything for anything detectable en masse and quickly. You cannot be safe with these slipshod methods used to scan cargo and people. Profiling will only cause people to be lax with checking people not required to be profiled.

Seriously people, Deep Kimchi is right. I've seen the light.

We should treat all Muslims like terrorists. Just like we should treat all men like rapists.

Do you actually know what 'profiling' is because so far you have shown a major lack of understanding.

All you do is rehash silly talking points. Is that what you are? A talking head? If you are not then please show some evidence of your ability to think for yourself.
Oh, you sound like Nazz. You like to poison the well by calling anything you disagree with "talking points".

Yes, I know what profiling is. Do you?

If I say that all Arab and Muslim males are going to get extra questioning and extra screening because I believe they are a proven risk, that's profiling. Ethnic and racial profiling.

Got it?

Sorry, doesn't work. Bin Laden didn't have any trouble recruiting hundreds of thousands of followers long before Bush was in office, waging war.

The UK has been bending over backwards to be far more accepting of Muslims than the US - and the radical Muslims see this as a weakness to be exploited.

If soft targets abound, I'm sure we'll eventually be forced to put them in camps.

Don't say I didn't tell you this would happen.

Thousants of followers??!

Why don't you ask a British muslim about aceptance?

Is it not striking that these attacks are being carried out by a tiny minority of young male muslims that have spent significant parts of their young adult life in Europe....

It is all about the discrepancy between intellect or potential and actual prospects in life

And that's why they have a relatively low passenger volume, and depend on repeated business from the same people.

Some national airlines might have the ability to absorb the massive financial losses and restructuring that would follow the massive drop in passenger numbers resulting from any such move. Smaller airlines, commuter airlines in particular, would die, and I doubt anything would quickly replace them, because that whole business model could cease to be viable.

Great news for the environment and our dependence on light oil.

Bad news for anyone trying to claim that terrorists did not just wipe out dozens of companies and billions of euros of business, even by failing at the planning stage.

The El Al "What do you usually have for breakfast? What did you have for breakfast this morning? Did you take a taxi or a bus? Are you a homosexual? ... " system of questioning only works in a culture where the military is a uniquely trusted public institution. It wouldn't work in Europe, because over here, people really are obstinate enough to say "Sod this for a lark", get their tickets refunded and watch the airline company's shares tank.
Its sad to watch (specially Americans) knee jerk reaction do what the terrorists were shooting for.

In our over the top reaction we are doing what they want succumbing to terror and hurting our own interests. We are voluntarily acting against the countries proclaimed civil rights standpoint and changing into another one of them

Sad

I've been double checked everytime I've flown since 9-11. My carry on sorted through, things opened and sniffed,camera checked thoroughly, my belt and shoes off, wanded and patted down.

I leave extra time for it and dont carry anything that would be considered objectionable, aside from a large solid ballpoint pen, that no one seems to be concened about, so far.

The statistics of looking the hell around you. Who have been the most common group to do terrorist attacks lately. The little green men from mars?

Wait... They were all of Middle Eastern decent...

no, they weren't. trying looking the hell around you again, only this time with your eyes open.

Seriously people, Deep Kimchi is right. I've seen the light.

We should treat all Muslims like terrorists. Just like we should treat all men like rapists.


I agree, this would make a better world indeed...

Thousants of followers??!

Why don't you ask a British muslim about aceptance?

Is it not striking that these attacks are being carried out by a tiny minority of young male muslims that have spent significant parts of their young adult life in Europe....

It is all about the discrepancy between intellect or potential and actual prospects in life

Really? Are you claiming Islamophobia, as the primary leader of the UK plot did for years?

Tariq Ramadan is a Swiss-born philosophy professor currently based in France. Ramadan has been extolled by intellectuals and news outlets alike. Salon.com stated that he "could be one of the most important intellectuals in the world," characterizing the Islamic scholar as a modern-day Martin Luther. Time Magazine named Ramadan one of the world's top 100 scientists and thinkers. However, ike the late Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat, Ramadan is a master of political double talk, preaching to Western ears an amicable message of unity and mutual respect, but venting his deep-seated hatred of the West to Arabic-speaking audiences (to whom he expresses his endorsement of Wahhabism, the most extreme form of Islam). Moreover, Ramadan has numerous connections to fundamentalist militants and is suspected by U.S. intelligence agencies of maintaining ties with the terrorist group al Qaeda.

He was a terrorist from the very beginning. Any Wahhab is.

Seriously people, Deep Kimchi is right. I've seen the light.

We should treat all Muslims like terrorists. Just like we should treat all men like rapists.
Yup … they are statistically the most common group to rape

Also most common group to be pedophiles too … better safe then sorry they should not be allowed around children ever.

Yup … they are statistically the most common group to rape

Also most common group to be pedophiles too … better safe then sorry they should not be allowed around children ever.

You do realize how stupid your joke sounds.

When police issue a report of a rapist, what does the common person think of? A man or a woman?

How many women rape other women, compared to men raping women.

Is it not logical to question the men who were in the vicinity? Or should we question people at random, making sure we question an equal number of women (just to be fair).

Oh, you sound like Nazz. You like to poison the well by calling anything you disagree with "talking points".

Yes, I know what profiling is. Do you?

If I say that all Arab and Muslim males are going to get extra questioning and extra screening because I believe they are a proven risk, that's profiling. Ethnic and racial profiling.

Got it?

And Whitey Mc Whiteman who is planning to blow up the plane because the voices in his head told him to doesn't get screened properly because the screaners are to busy with racist bullshit reasons for detaining an Arab male who has given them no cause for suspicion except his race.

Its sad to watch (specially Americans) knee jerk reaction do what the terrorists were shooting for.

In our over the top reaction we are doing what they want succumbing to terror and hurting our own interests. We are voluntarily acting against the countries proclaimed civil rights standpoint and changing into another one of them

Sad

Right

People forget that the leadership of al-Qaida does not want the destruction of the US or the West. They want to rally all Muslims around their flag, create a single Islamic state in the Middle East.

Guess how our reaction is helping Bin Laden win the game...
Civilians lose everywhere


Bin Laden 1 --- Civilians 0

Let me get this straight though...

You think a bunch of people who orchestrated the simultaneous takeover of several major airplanes and crashed them into buildings couldn't get through a profiling network set up by people not qualified to be a part of the government agency you say is too incompetent to engineer as a conspiracy the same things the Muslim terrorists did?

You do realize how stupid your joke sounds.

When police issue a report of a rapist, what does the common person think of? A man or a woman?

How many women rape other women, compared to men raping women.

Is it not logical to question the men who were in the vicinity? Or should we question people at random, making sure we question an equal number of women (just to be fair).
Yeah but for some strange reason we don’t segregate them only question them (at least as been proposed in this thread)

And Whitey Mc Whiteman who is planning to blow up the plane because the voices in his head told him to doesn't get screened properly because the screaners are to busy with racist bullshit reasons for detaining an Arab male who has given them no cause for suspicion except his race.

Really? Let's look at statistics on plane bombings and you tell me who is ahead in the count.

Who, in the past ten years, has blown up more planes, crashed more planes after hijacking, and hijacked more planes.

It's not bullshit - it's statistical fact.

Really? Are you claiming Islamophobia, as the primary leader of the UK plot did for years?

He was a terrorist from the very beginning. Any Wahhab is.


Claiming Islamophia, makes someone what exactly?

Really? Let's look at statistics on plane bombings and you tell me who is ahead in the count.

Who, in the past ten years, has blown up more planes, crashed more planes after hijacking, and hijacked more planes.

It's not bullshit - it's statistical fact.

Lets try this agin . . .

I am not arguing statistics I am arguing that while interogating someone who has given NO cause for suspicion other than being the wrong race someone who DOES NOT fit into your racist steriotypes is going to slip onto the plane with a bomb.

Claiming Islamophia, makes someone what exactly?

a terrorist sympathizer i guess :confused:

Lets try this agin . . .

I am not arguing statistics I am arguing that while interogating someone who has given NO cause for suspicion other than being the wrong race someone who DOES NOT fit into your racist steriotypes is going to slip onto the plane with a bomb.

I really don't care what you think is a racist stereotype if it's completely true.

And that's why they have a relatively low passenger volume, and depend on repeated business from the same people.

Some national airlines might have the ability to absorb the massive financial losses and restructuring that would follow the massive drop in passenger numbers resulting from any such move. Smaller airlines, commuter airlines in particular, would die, and I doubt anything would quickly replace them, because that whole business model could cease to be viable.

Great news for the environment and our dependence on light oil.

Bad news for anyone trying to claim that terrorists did not just wipe out dozens of companies and billions of euros of business, even by failing at the planning stage.

The El Al "What do you usually have for breakfast? What did you have for breakfast this morning? Did you take a taxi or a bus? Are you a homosexual? ... " system of questioning only works in a culture where the military is a uniquely trusted public institution. It wouldn't work in Europe, because over here, people really are obstinate enough to say "Sod this for a lark", get their tickets refunded and watch the airline company's shares tank.


Yes and no.

For example in Germany it would worked....have you never been asked for your papers (ie controlled)?

As for financing....well all national carriers are pretty much subsidised...except for possibly BA and that is pretty moot.

Trust...no its not a question of trust...remember that we (Brits) might bitch and moan...we will still queue...but there needs to be a bloody good reason...

Who knows what the Rev Smiler has in mind...but I suspect he (and Gordon) is not too chuffed with Reid's power grab...

You do realize how stupid your joke sounds.

When police issue a report of a rapist, what does the common person think of? A man or a woman?

How many women rape other women, compared to men raping women.

Is it not logical to question the men who were in the vicinity? Or should we question people at random, making sure we question an equal number of women (just to be fair).
How many men rape other men compared to women raping men? Seems like you are forgetting some part of the rapes that occur.

Or are you shifting the goalpost in order to paint profiling under a good light?

Claiming Islamophia, makes someone what exactly?
Just like Tariq, who evidently didn't believe the crap he was spouting on one day and building a bomb at home the very next.

He apaprently wanted to assauge the views of Westerners that Islam was no threat, and we were overreacting.

Then going home and making bombs and plotting to blow up Westerners.

How many men rape other men compared to women raping men? Seems like you are forgetting some part of the rapes that occur.

Or are you shifting the goalpost in order to paint profiling under a good light?

True, men rape men. But that only reinforces my point.

Statistically, how many men commit rape, compared to the number of women who commit rape?

Eh?

You do realize how stupid your joke sounds.

You don't have to keep trying to convince us, it's already worked. We know that you are a rapist pedophile because you are a man. As such, you should not be allowed to be alone with any woman or child without first being questioned by the authorities.

You don't have to keep trying to convince us, it's already worked. We know that you are a rapist pedophile because you are a man. As such, you should not be allowed to be alone with any woman or child without first being questioned by the authorities.
And a white man at that. Especially dangerous.

You don't have to keep trying to convince us, it's already worked. We know that you are a rapist pedophile because you are a man. As such, you should not be allowed to be alone with any woman or child without first being questioned by the authorities.
It's good to know that you're all in favor of strip searching every Muslim who wants to board an aircraft...

As for financing....well all national carriers are pretty much subsidised...except for possibly BA and that is pretty moot.

Trust...no its not a question of trust...remember that we (Brits) might bitch and moan...we will still queue...but there needs to be a bloody good reason...

With your first quoted statement here, we are merely transferring the restructuring cost to the government, and many governments do not have the money to pay for everyone to be restructured. So who gets the cash, and who gets to go bankrupt?

Ironically, the article in the OP is about how profiling is being debated as a measure to help with the congestion in UK airports. What do you, as a Brit, consider to be a 'bloody good reason'?

With your first quoted statement here, we are merely transferring the restructuring cost to the government, and many governments do not have the money to pay for everyone to be restructured. So who gets the cash, and who gets to go bankrupt?

Ironically, the article in the OP is about how profiling is being debated as a measure to help with the congestion in UK airports. What do you, as a Brit, consider to be a 'bloody good reason'?

Some people believe a "bloody good reason" is "after the fact" rather than "preventative measure".

See, like I posted in another thread, many here believe that to "fight terrorism", you wait until the attacks occur, and then you prosecute the tidbits of terrorist remains (only if you find any) to show them that you mean business.

It's pretty bum to profile on the basis of race or religion. My family knows that firsthand, for, during the First World War, my great-Grandfather was the owner of a local dairy. My family, although of German descent, had been in the United States since before the Civil War, and my relatives had fought in that war, as well as the Spanish-American War. A local group decided to boycott all 'Hun owned businesses', and the members pretty much coerced their neighbors to take part as well.

The resulting effect was my great-Grandfather was forced to sell the dairy at a major loss, and changed my family's financial standing for years to come.

It's pretty bum to profile on the basis of race or religion. My family knows that firsthand, for, during the First World War, my great-Grandfather was the owner of a local dairy. My family, although of German descent, had been in the United States since before the Civil War, and my relatives had fought in that war, as well as the Spanish-American War. A local group decided to boycott all 'Hun owned businesses', and the members pretty much coerced their neighbors to take part as well.

The resulting effect was my great-Grandfather was forced to sell the dairy at a major loss, and changed my family's financial standing for years to come.

The same goes for the Japanese-American Internment Camps in the US during WWII. Hundreds of thousands kept locked up for years, yet I don't think there were any saboteurs, and a large number actually volunteered to show their patriotism by joining Nisei units - who fought with exceptional courage against both Germans and Japanese.

But fuck history, you know. We've got nothing to learn from it. Shove them all in camps, like DK suggested.

Just like Tariq, who evidently didn't believe the crap he was spouting on one day and building a bomb at home the very next.

He apaprently wanted to assauge the views of Westerners that Islam was no threat, and we were overreacting.

Then going home and making bombs and plotting to blow up Westerners.

great. What does this have to do with the topic?

Anyway, are you talking about racial profiling? What are your criteria? All male arabs? But Arabs are only one group of people from the Mideast. Perhaps all middle eastern men? Women too? And children? They are part of the same race, so I guess you mean that they would have to undergo additional screening like the men.

What would this additional screening consist of? You seem to be vague on this subject.

And ethnic profiling too, you said. Now since this thread is about Muslims, I will guess that you meant religious profiling. This assumes that a Muslim terrorist will not lie about his religion. Have you managed to figure out how to know what religion someone is, even if they want to hide this information from you?

Please answer these questions, so that the debate may move forward.

Thanks.

True, men rape men. But that only reinforces my point.

Statistically, how many men commit rape, compared to the number of women who commit rape?

Eh?
And what pray tell, should we do with the statistical anomaly that is non-islamist terrorists?

Profiling doesn't work because there are other terrorists that muslim.

And what pray tell, should we do with the statistical anomaly that is non-islamist terrorists?

Profiling doesn't work because there are other terrorists that muslim.
Profiling works for El Al, eh?

We are fighting a war on Muslim fascist terrorists. Not profiling Muslims would be like not profiling Nazis during World war II .

It's good to know that you're all in favor of strip searching every Muslim who wants to board an aircraft...

Sure, as long as we can castrate every man who wishes to be in contact with any child.

It's pretty bum to profile on the basis of race or religion. My family knows that firsthand, for, during the First World War, my great-Grandfather was the owner of a local dairy. My family, although of German descent, had been in the United States since before the Civil War, and my relatives had fought in that war, as well as the Spanish-American War. A local group decided to boycott all 'Hun owned businesses', and the members pretty much coerced their neighbors to take part as well.

The resulting effect was my great-Grandfather was forced to sell the dairy at a major loss, and changed my family's financial standing for years to come.

That's what you get for having the same lineage as those damn Germans. After all, it is obvious that all people of German descent were proven to be dangerous by the fact that pretty much all of the people in the German army were of German descent. The fact that your great-grandfather was a US citizen is irrelevant. He had a German name, and was therefore dangerous.

Profiling works for El Al, eh?
Total screening works for El Al, Captain Ignore-the-important-facts.

Everyone who hyjacks American planes.....at least for the last 20 years...is a muslim. We are fighting a war on Islamic fascism. We must profile them as we would any other enemy.

Oh, you sound like Nazz. You like to poison the well by calling anything you disagree with "talking points".

Yes, I know what profiling is. Do you?

If I say that all Arab and Muslim males are going to get extra questioning and extra screening because I believe they are a proven risk, that's profiling. Ethnic and racial profiling.

Got it?

LOLOL

What I have got Deep Kimchi is that you are just another screeching voice in the gimme gimme neocon wilderness...

I debate....you rehash talking points like a parrot...a parrot who is incapable of thought...just screech the same old points....like a parrot oddly enough.

Face the truth...ah sorry I forgot....you are unable face the truth because you would not recognise it if it smacked you around the gob with a flacid kipper.

What you fail to grasp is that El Al question every single passenger. They do not only question 'Arabs'.

Do you understand? Yes? Let me tell you again...

El Al question every single passenger. They do not only question 'Arabs'.

Do you understand now?

EL AL does not perform racial and ethnic profiling as they do not only question 'Arabs'.

Is it getting through to you yet? Do you understand yet? Do you understand what 'They do not only question 'Arabs'.' means yet?

Is the flickering light of comprehension growing or is the neocon fire extinguisher getting primed?

Or are you a case of 'the light is on but there is nobody in'?

Everyone who hyjacks American planes.....at least for the last 20 years...is a muslim. We are fighting a war on Islamic fascism. We must profile them as we would any other enemy.

Perhaps we should shove them all in camps, as well? Wouldn't that make it all easier?

We are fighting a war on Muslim fascist terrorists. Not profiling Muslims would be like not profiling Nazis during World war II .

Hardly. All Nazis were, well, Nazis. They were part of a government that we were at war with. On the other hand, all Muslims are not terrorists. In fact, most Muslims are not terrorists. Treating all Muslims as terrorists is pretty much the same thing as treating all black men as criminals, or all men as rapists.

What would this additional screening consist of? You seem to be vague on this subject.


The Israelis ask questions that are designed to elicit responses from people who are trying to conceal something.

It's peculiarly effective, and has been so for decades. It's probably based on NLP techniques.

They also have a machine that detects whether or not you're trying to conceal something about yourself - which then dumps you to further questioning by people.

Used in conjuction with profiling, the questioning is applied to those most likely to be a problem.

El Al security also profiles other people, such as British Asians, because they were also involved in other plots. Women traveling alone (based on previous attacks).

They are successful because they aren't afraid to use the data to profile and aren't afraid to ask questions and demand answers.

Flying is a privilege, not a right.

Perhaps we should shove them all in camps, as well? Wouldn't that make it all easier?

No. No.

That's what you get for having the same lineage as those damn Germans. After all, it is obvious that all people of German descent were proven to be dangerous by the fact that pretty much all of the people in the German army were of German descent. The fact that your great-grandfather was a US citizen is irrelevant. He had a German name, and was therefore dangerous.
Clearly :D

LOLOL

What I have got Deep Kimchi is that you are just another screeching voice in the gimme gimme neocon wilderness...

I debate....you rehash talking points like a parrot...a parrot who is incapable of thought...just screech the same old points....like a parrot oddly enough.

Face the truth...ah sorry I forgot....you are unable face the truth because you would not recognise it if it smacked you around the gob with a flacid kipper.

What you fail to grasp is that El Al question every single passenger. They do not only question 'Arabs'.

Do you understand? Yes? Let me tell you again...

El Al question every single passenger. They do not only question 'Arabs'.

Do you understand now?

EL AL does not perform racial and ethnic profiling as they do not only question 'Arabs'.

Is it getting through to you yet? Do you understand yet? Do you understand what 'They do not only question 'Arabs'.' means yet?

Is the flickering light of comprehension growing or is the neocon fire extinguisher getting primed?

Or are you a case of 'the light is on but there is nobody in'?

Well, your points are not relavent and your insults are petty. Good work.

All passengers are classified on a basic 3 tier threat scale: Israelis and Jews are usually classified as the lowest threat, Westerners are usually classified as medium level threats, and Arabs (particularly males) are usually classified as high threat.

Rubiconic, if you can't read this, let me know.

It says that El Al classifies Arabs (particularly males) as high threat.

That's profiling. It means they get extra questioning, and extra searching.

Got it?

And I'm not repeating talking points, no matter how many times you say it. You're saying that anything you disagree with is a "talking point".

Flying is a privilege, not a right.
Wrong.

Flying is a business and you can either choose to go bankrupt with your idiotic ideas or barely hang on by the skin of your teeth by going private and catering to a very small portion of the populace.

Rubiconic, if you can't read this, let me know.

It says that El Al classifies Arabs (particularly males) as high threat.
let's see, I can read it.
It says El Al is racist. Plain and simple. Like daylight, you know? There is no rational to its classification.

Well, your points are not relavent and your insults are petty. Good work.

Ahhh, but they are relevant. El Al does this to all passengers, just not Arabs. If they were selective to Arabs only DK might have a point, but they do it to all passengers.

Ahhh, but they are relevant. El Al does this to all passengers, just not Arabs. If they were selective to Arabs only DK might have a point, but they do it to all passengers.
Go back one post and see what El Al classifies Arab males as.

Hardly. All Nazis were, well, Nazis. They were part of a government that we were at war with. On the other hand, all Muslims are not terrorists. In fact, most Muslims are not terrorists. Treating all Muslims as terrorists is pretty much the same thing as treating all black men as criminals, or all men as rapists.


Well, lets see. If every guy that hyjacks American planes is a Muslim...could that be a clue as to look for? As in not the old Jewish lady? And if you are in a white neighborhood and you just had a house robbed by a black guy, why would the cops pull over a white guy to ask about the crime as likely as a black guy? If a woman gets raped and she says her attacker was a man, would you search for a woman or a man? It is common sense.

Wrong.

Flying is a business and you can either choose to go bankrupt with your idiotic ideas or barely hang on by the skin of your teeth by going private and catering to a very small portion of the populace.

Show me in the US Constitution where flying is a right.

I'll wait.

Go back one post and see what El Al classifies Arab males as.

I saw. El Al classify everyone as a threat; they might classify Arab males as the highest threat, but they profile everybody.

Wrong.

Flying is a business and you can either choose to go bankrupt with your idiotic ideas or barely hang on by the skin of your teeth by going private and catering to a very small portion of the populace.


let's see, I can read it.
It says El Al is racist. Plain and simple. Like daylight, you know? There is no rational to its classification.

Now being a Muslim is a race? LOL.

Show me in the US Constitution where flying is a right.
Are you drugged or just a stubborn ass?

Flying is neither a privilidge or a right, it is a business.

Now being a Muslim is a race? LOL.
No, but Arab is. Go watch more Reading Rainbow and you might learn how to properly read.

It says El Al is racist. Plain and simple. Like daylight, you know? There is no rational to its classification.
Really? So just because Arabs have always wanted to hijack and blow up El Al, there's no rational...

I guess that's why no El Al planes have been hijacked since 1968, although there have been many attempts by Arabs over the years.

Good luck with your illogic.

I saw. El Al classify everyone as a threat; they might classify Arab males as the highest threat, but they profile everybody.

If arab males are the highest threat they are being profiled. Profiling everyone breaks the definition of what profiling is.

I saw. El Al classify everyone as a threat; they might classify Arab males as the highest threat, but they profile everybody.
It's still profiling.

And so many object to any profiling at all, that we search 80 year old women in the US for no reason at all - strip searched in some cases.

Really? So just because Arabs have always wanted to hijack and blow up El Al, there's no rational...

I guess that's why no El Al planes have been hijacked since 1968, although there have been many attempts by Arabs over the years.

Good luck with your illogic.
Yeah, it has to be due to profiling Arabs. Nothing to do with the interviewing of every passenger and 100% screening of all items going on the plane.

Yeah, it has to be due to profiling Arabs. Nothing to do with the interviewing of every passenger and 100% screening of all items going on the plane.
Nothing to do with higher odds that an Arab will not be flying El Al today....

With your first quoted statement here, we are merely transferring the restructuring cost to the government, and many governments do not have the money to pay for everyone to be restructured. So who gets the cash, and who gets to go bankrupt?

Ironically, the article in the OP is about how profiling is being debated as a measure to help with the congestion in UK airports. What do you, as a Brit, consider to be a 'bloody good reason'?

I think it depends on which country and which airline...a good example is Sabina...so in a way governments would have to make that decision...is it in the interest of the country to have a national carrier...Do you think that Germany would cut loose Lufthansa, or Air France in the case of the French?

As for the cut price airlines...not really of importance as all they provide is low cost flights...the majority of passengers will then return to business travellers....so national carriers get the cash and low cost airlines go to the wall.

As a Brit -

I think profiling is a waste of time. I remember back in the 90's when it became 'driving while black'...if you were black and driving you got stopped...alot...and it did nothing to actually reduce crime substantially all it did was create resentment and hassle...and waste of police time and resources.

I do think that El Al have a very good system and if needs must we should adopt that system but as Tactical Grace has highlighted there are major issues to overcome...and it would be a major curtailment of 'rights' and ease of travel.

Nothing to do with higher odds that an Arab will not be flying El Al today....
Sweet, sweet ignorant racism. Sweet like lynching a gay Jewish black dude.

As for the cut price airlines...not really of importance as all they provide is low cost flights...the majority of passengers will then return to business travellers....so national carriers get the cash and low cost airlines go to the wall.
Don't count on it. The moves would kill the already nearly dead legacy airlines. The cut price airlines are in the black enough to put in real security measures if required.

Sweet, sweet ignorant racism. Sweet like lynching a gay Jewish black dude.

It's not racism if it's true.

A point you overlook.

That, and it looks like the UK government agrees with me.

It's not racism if it's true.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's fucking racism.
You can paint your picture with whatever magical color you can pull out of a hat, doesn't mean you arn't racist.

Yeah, it has to be due to profiling Arabs. Nothing to do with the interviewing of every passenger and 100% screening of all items going on the plane.

Are you living in a World where arab Muslims pose an equal risk to air safety as any other group? Because I am not.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's fucking racism.

Too bad. The UK government agrees with me.

The Israelis ask questions that are designed to elicit responses from people who are trying to conceal something.

It's peculiarly effective, and has been so for decades. It's probably based on NLP techniques.

They also have a machine that detects whether or not you're trying to conceal something about yourself - which then dumps you to further questioning by people.

Used in conjuction with profiling, the questioning is applied to those most likely to be a problem.

El Al security also profiles other people, such as British Asians, because they were also involved in other plots. Women traveling alone (based on previous attacks).

They are successful because they aren't afraid to use the data to profile and aren't afraid to ask questions and demand answers.

Flying is a privilege, not a right.

So you would then apply these measures to all middle eastern people and all people claiming to be muslims?

Excellent. So a young white male Muslim, who tells the security people he is Christian, travelling alone, moves through security easily, while a middle eastern family gets interrogated about the details of their life and has their luggage taken apart.

Great. It is obvious you know nothing about airport security. You apparently did not even read the article you posted. From the second last paragraph:

Philip Baum, an aviation security consultant, said that profiling should focus on ruling out people who obviously posed no risk rather than picking out Asian or Arabs.

Well, your points are not relavent and your insults are petty. Good work.

yawn...go back to elementry school son.

Too bad. The UK government agrees with me.
Which does not preclude you not being a racist.

Profiling Arabs will make you safer like not being allowed to carry drinks on the plane you bought in the terminal in front of the security guard will make you safer.

So you would then apply these measures to all middle eastern people and all people claiming to be muslims?

Excellent. So a young white male Muslim, who tells the security people he is Christian, travelling alone, moves through security easily, while a middle eastern family gets interrogated about the details of their life and has their luggage taken apart.

Great. It is obvious you know nothing about airport security. You apparently did not even read the article you posted. From the second last paragraph:

It's obvious that you don't know either.

The machine which will replace initial El Al screening (and is being tested now in the US) will detect if you're concealing something about yourself or your plans.

So your scenario will never take place.

I think profiling is a waste of time. I remember back in the 90's when it became 'driving while black'...if you were black and driving you got stopped...alot...and it did nothing to actually reduce crime substantially all it did was create resentment and hassle...and waste of police time and resources.

I do think that El Al have a very good system and if needs must we should adopt that system but as Tactical Grace has highlighted there are major issues to overcome...and it would be a major curtailment of 'rights' and ease of travel.

Well, did you see that recent poll where only 7% of British Muslims said that they would put their country before Islam? That is scary. I also understand that every last one of those 24 who were recently arrested are arabic Muslims. I do not believe in coincidences.

Well, did you see that recent poll where only 7% of British Muslims said that they would put their country before Islam? That is scary. I also understand that every last one of those 24 who were recently arrested are arabic Muslims. I do not believe in coincidences.
Then you understand Jack and Squat.

Sweet, sweet ignorant racism. Sweet like lynching a gay Jewish black dude.


Don't count on it. The moves would kill the already nearly dead legacy airlines. The cut price airlines are in the black enough to put in real security measures if required.

It is not racism. Are you seriously living in the land of Oz where arabs hyjack planes the same amount as others? Or where a black is as likely to kill a person as a white?

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's fucking racism.
You can paint your picture with whatever magical color you can pull out of a hat, doesn't mean you arn't racist.
Once again....you act like they are not more of a security risk....statisticly. I guess blacks get equal SAT scores as whites too.

Well, did you see that recent poll where only 7% of British Muslims said that they would put their country before Islam? That is scary. I also understand that every last one of those 24 who were recently arrested are arabic Muslims. I do not believe in coincidences.


Nope, one of them was a White, British convert to Islam. Middle-class, son of an ex-tory (dead now). His sister who also converted was a top model in the UK Can't remember the names it was in Yesterday's Daily Mail.

Once again....you act like they are not more of a security risk....statisticly. I guess blacks get equal SAT scores as whites too.
Ignorance is a security risk and you sir outrank the score of every terrorist in the world combined.

Then you understand Jack and Squat.

so it is a coincidence that every airline hyjacking of the past 20 years was by arabs? Or was it a coincidence that in Britain only 7% of Muslims put Britain first? Your lack of a serious response is laughable.

so it is a coincidence that every airline hyjacking of the past 20 years was by arabs? Or was it a coincidence that in Britain only 7% of Muslims put Britain first? Your lack of a serious response is laughable.
You inability to spell hijack is laughable.

Ignorance is a security risk and you sir outrank the score of every terrorist in the world combined.

What is it that I don't know? Oh, yeah...that arabs pose the same security risk to planes as whites, asians, blacks, hispanics, etc. I am ignorant of that fact...because it is FALSE.

You inability to spell hijack is laughable.

You put PC nonsense ahead of people's lives. That is not laughable at all.

You inability to spell hijack is laughable.

Just as your inability to spell "your" is. :D

Well, lets see. If every guy that hyjacks American planes is a Muslim...could that be a clue as to look for?

It still doesn't mean that every Muslim is a threat, or that every Muslim should be treated as one. There are quite a few Muslim citizens who are less threat than Joe Smith.

As in not the old Jewish lady?

Strangely enough, racial profiling usually leads to exactly that. When they started racial profiling for drug smugglers, for instance, the smugglers just started using blonde chicks and little old ladies as their smugglers.

And if you are in a white neighborhood and you just had a house robbed by a black guy, why would the cops pull over a white guy to ask about the crime as likely as a black guy?

No, but that is irrelevant. What we are talking about is akin to me going, "OMFG! SOMEONE MIGHT ROB MY HOUSE!! ARREST ALL THE BLACK GUYS IN THE AREA AND ASK THEM IF THEY'RE GOING TO ROB MY HOUSE!"

If a woman gets raped and she says her attacker was a man, would you search for a woman or a man? It is common sense.

Once again, we are not talking about a crime already committed, with a witness to said crime. What we are talking about would be more akin to stopping every man on the street who looks at a woman and questioning him as to whether or not he is planning to rape her.

Just as your inability to spell "your" is. :D
You mama.

If an asian is robbing stores in a black neighborhood, who do the cops look at for?

You mama.

lol :p

I'm thinking, people might want to fly on a proven safer airline.

We recently had the pleasure of making a trip to Israel on EL AL Israel Airlines from Los Angeles to Tel Aviv and return. The planes (767s) were clean and well appointed. In-flight entertainment was continuous, however the audio was noisy and there could have been more monitors for better viewing. We were treated with the utmost courtesy by the EL AL staff both on the ground and in the air at all stops. We want to especially thank the passenger agents, and assistants at Tel Aviv for their prompt attention to my wife's need for rest during the lengthy security checks prior to boarding. Traveling in today's environment of terrorists threats to life and limb can be enervating for everyone, but especially for seniors in their eighties as my wife and myself are. The ground staff were all cheerful and reassuring. We noted a genuine caring in their attitude to us. It was obvious that your people are well trained for their jobs. This made our flights quite enjoyable.

I guess an airline that blows up occasionally may do worse business than the one that doesn't.

yawn...go back to elementry school son.

I second that proposal

It still doesn't mean that every Muslim is a threat, or that every Muslim should be treated as one. There are quite a few Muslim citizens who are less threat than Joe Smith.

So what? not everyone you check will be a terrorist. GOOD. I'd rather people had their feelings hurt if it meant a few more terrorists were caught. I've been searched at an airport and I'm white. I didn't care so why should they. If you are gonna fly you've got to understand that your baggage may get searched. Big deal.

I second that proposal

That's because you disagree with me and have no way to prove me wrong. Muslims pose a greater risk to aircraft than any other group. It is logical to search them more carefully because of their record as compared to all other groups.

I'm thinking, people might want to fly on a proven safer airline.



I guess an airline that blows up occasionally may do worse business than the one that doesn't.
I guess fear mongering makes the idea that you are safe real important.

so it is a coincidence that every airline hyjacking of the past 20 years was by arabs? Or was it a coincidence that in Britain only 7% of Muslims put Britain first? Your lack of a serious response is laughable.
Why limit yourself to 20 years? So you exclude refuting evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182)?

The main suspects in the bombing were the members of a Sikh separtists group called the Babbar Khalsa. The Babbar Khalsa was devoted to creating a Sikh state called Khalistan in the Punjab.

On November 6, 1985 the RCMP raided the homes of the suspected Sikh terrorists, Talwinder Singh Parmar, Inderjit Singh Reyat. Surjan Singh Gill, Hardial Singh Johal, and Manmohan Singh.

Talwinder Singh Parmar was a naturalized Canadian citizen living in British Columbia and was wanted for extradition to India for his role in activities in the Punjab including the murder of two Police officers. At this time, the Indian police and Khalistan supporters were engaged in a bloody war in which many innocent people were caught by excesses on both sides. On March 5, 1985, three months before the bombing, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) had obtained permission to tape Parmar’s phone on the basis that he was the leader of the terrorist organization, the Babbar Khalsa [3].

Inderjit Singh Reyat was living in Duncan, Vancouver Island, British Columbia, and working as an auto mechanic and electrician.

Surjan Singh Gill was living in Vancouver as the self-proclaimed consul-general of Khalistan. He later fled Canada and is believed to be in hiding in London, England.

Ripudaman Singh Malik is a Vancouver businessman who helped found a credit union and several Khalsa Schools.

Ajaib Singh Bagri was a mill worker living in Kamloops, British Columbia. Part of the evidence in the trial was a tape of Bagri giving a speech to Sikhs at Madison Square Garden on July 1984. Excerpts from the speech mentioned in the verdict include the need to murder Hindus and makes the request to murder the families of those in the Sikh community who would "betray us".

"They say Hindus are our brothers. Oh, I say denounce such Sikhism that calls Hindus our brothers. . . If any speaker from this stage ever mentions Hindus as our brothers he will be denounced as a traitor of the Sikh nation. . . They say Hindus are our brothers, many have said that, but I give you my most solemn assurance until we kill 50,000 Hindus, we will not rest!. . . Now I make a request: if anybody tries to betray us now, if anybody tries to get our nation annihilated, all of his family and children will be crushed in crushers and reduced to pulp."

Hardial Singh Johal and Manmohan Singh were both followers of Parmar and active in the Sikh temples where he preached. On November 15, 2002 Hardial Singh Johal, died of natural causes at 55. He had allegedly stored the suitcases with bombs in the basement of a Vancouver school but was never charged in the case.

Daljit Sandhu is later named by a Crown witness as the man who picked up the tickets for the bombing. During the trial the Crown played a video from January, 1989, in which Daljit Sandhu congratulated the families of Indira Gandhi’s assassins and stated that “she deserved that and she invited that and that’s why she got it”. Mr. Sandhu was cleared by Judge Josephson in his March 16 judgement.

Rubiconic, if you can't read this, let me know.

It says that El Al classifies Arabs (particularly males) as high threat.

That's profiling. It means they get extra questioning, and extra searching.

Got it?

And I'm not repeating talking points, no matter how many times you say it. You're saying that anything you disagree with is a "talking point".

You still don't get what profiling actually is. Racial/Ethnic (your words by the way) profiling is ignoring everyone barring those of whatever race/ethnic orgin you suspect and those are the ones you question.

El Al does not do that. El Al questions everyone.

Good grief.... its a pretty simple concept to grasp...

Talking points - I am saying that you are talking shyte DK...that is what I am saying.

If an asian is robbing stores in a black neighborhood, who do the cops look at for?The guy robbing stores?

You still don't get what profiling actually is. Racial/Ethnic (your words by the way) profiling is ignoring everyone barring those of whatever race/ethnic orgin you suspect and those are the ones you question.

El Al does not do that. El Al questions everyone.

Good grief.... its a pretty simple concept to grasp...

It's a pretty simple concept to grasp that they view Arab males as the highest threat, and question them more rigorously.

Pretty simple - in fact so simple, that everyone but you gets it.

Why limit yourself to 20 years? So you exclude refuting evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182)?

That means nothing. It falls outside of the past 20 years and it was 1 incident. Do you seriously believe that Muslims do not hijack more often than other groups? Is that in the land of OZ.

You still don't get what profiling actually is. Racial/Ethnic (your words by the way) profiling is ignoring everyone barring those of whatever race/ethnic orgin you suspect and those are the ones you question.

El Al does not do that. El Al questions everyone.

Good grief.... its a pretty simple concept to grasp...

Talking points - I am saying that you are talking shyte DK...that is what I am saying.

false:
racial profling: the consideration of race when developing a profile of suspected criminals; by extension, a form of racism involving police focus on people of certain racial groups when seeking suspected criminals

nothing in there about ignoring anybody. You are misinformed. Ignoring others is a stupid policy. It is never done. Ever.

Well, did you see that recent poll where only 7% of British Muslims said that they would put their country before Islam? That is scary.

You find that scary? How many people do you think would put their country before their religion? Ask Christians the same question. Ask Hindus, Budhists, or Jews.

Well, did you see that recent poll where only 7% of British Muslims said that they would put their country before Islam? That is scary. I also understand that every last one of those 24 who were recently arrested are arabic Muslims. I do not believe in coincidences.

isn't your teacher calling you?? get back to class son.

The guy robbing stores?

who is what? are they going to look for a white suspect?

isn't your teacher calling you?? get back to class son.

You offer no facts. No arguments. Only insults. Classic left winger. Classic.

That means nothing. It falls outside of the past 20 years and it was 1 incident. Do you seriously believe that Muslims do not hijack more often than other groups? Is that in the land of OZ.

was D.B. Cooper a muslim?

Do you honstly think AQ doesn't know that there is a profile for their terrorists? thats why their trying to get guys like John Walker Lindh on their side.

That means nothing. It falls outside of the past 20 years and it was 1 incident. Do you seriously believe that Muslims do not hijack more often than other groups? Is that in the land of OZ.
Canada actually. :p

But, pray tell, how many planes were highjacked in the last twenty years so that the single deadliest terrorist act (before 9/11) becomes only "1 incident".

Surely, it must me a weekly occurence!

:rolleyes:

who is what? are they going to look for a white suspect?

if they find all the stolen merchendise in a white guys apartment, are they going to let him off because hes not asian?

It's obvious that you don't know either.

The machine which will replace initial El Al screening (and is being tested now in the US) will detect if you're concealing something about yourself or your plans.

So your scenario will never take place.

Again, you are being vague. I assume that everybody walks up to this machine, and this machine can tell if you are lying when you are asked if you are a Muslim. If you are not a Muslim, or you are a Muslim that managed to bypass the machine, you are free to go through normal security measures. If you are a Muslim, or the machine decides that you are lying when asked, you go off to the special area.

Tell me. How does this machine know if you're Middle eastern? Do we rely on humans for that? I think we can safely do that.

Anyway, you get to the special area, where you are asked to waitwith all the other swarthy people of all ages. Since every brown person, Muslim, and nervous person is in here, it's more crowded than the other place where white people end up.

Now everyone in this room goes through the El Al screening. Imagine the resources being used for this. Anyone who is white and able to fool the polygraph (made by the lowest bidder) can move more quickly.

You are arguing that this system will be so much safer than the current system as to justify the additional expenditures and the effect on the economy, not to mention how this would affect race relations.

Fine. Prove it.

who is what? are they going to look for a white suspect?
well, if they're good policemen, they'll ask the robbed about the criminal and look for potential suspect. Never, in their lifetime, would they look every asian suspiciously before knowing who did the robberies. That would be a one way ticket to lawsuitville.

Do you honstly think AQ doesn't know that there is a profile for their terrorists? thats why their trying to get guys like John Walker Lindh on their side.

You still did not answer the question. Are Muslims more likely to hijack a plane than any other group?

Again, you are being vague. I assume that everybody walks up to this machine, and this machine can tell if you are lying when you are asked if you are a Muslim. If you are not a Muslim, or you are a Muslim that managed to bypass the machine, you are free to go through normal security measures. If you are a Muslim, or the machine decides that you are lying when asked, you go off to the special area.

Tell me. How does this machine know if you're Middle eastern? Do we rely on humans for that? I think we can safely do that.

Anyway, you get to the special area, where you are asked to waitwith all the other swarthy people of all ages. Since every brown person, Muslim, and nervous person is in here, it's more crowded than the other place where white people end up.

Now everyone in this room goes through the El Al screening. Imagine the resources being used for this. Anyone who is white and able to fool the polygraph (made by the lowest bidder) can move more quickly.

You are arguing that this system will be so much safer than the current system as to justify the additional expenditures and the effect on the economy, not to mention how this would affect race relations.

Fine. Prove it.

Easy. It works for El Al. It also is being tested in the US at this moment. The UK is now thinking of adapting the same methods.

The very fact that they are considering it seriously means that it's not bullshit. The fact that El Al hasn't been hijacked despite repeated attempts to board (since 1968) is also proof that it works.

Fuck race relations. We didn't blow up the World Trade Center.

Canada actually. :p

But, pray tell, how many planes were highjacked in the last twenty years so that the single deadliest terrorist act (before 9/11) becomes only "1 incident".

Surely, it must me a weekly occurence!

:rolleyes:

You still did not answer the question. Are Muslims more likely to hijack aircraft than any other group?

if they find all the stolen merchendise in a white guys apartment, are they going to let him off because hes not asian?

You did not answer the question. What race suspect will they be looking for?

You still did not answer the question. Are Muslims more likely to hijack a plane than any other group?

yes

not to mention how this would affect race relations.

Fine. Prove it.

thats the most important thing to you?

yes

so then if they are more of a risk you do not treat them as such?????

You did not answer the question. What race suspect will they be looking for?

they will look for a suspect who matches the description, if there is one, now, answer my question

You still did not answer the question. Are Muslims more likely to hijack aircraft than any other group?
No. Muslim are not more likely to highjack a plane that any other group.

In fact, if we're going to label people, I'd say that Terrorist are more likely to highjack a plane that any other group. We should go after them instead of focusing on members of the second largest religion in the world.

Not to mention the logistical nightmare that is screening every passenger for their religion.

so then if they are more of a risk you do not treat them as such?????

I do not automatically expect them to be a terrorist if that is what you are insinuating, because that is prejudice

I treat people equally regardless of race or religion, gender, or nationality.

You offer no facts. No arguments. Only insults. Classic left winger. Classic.

not insulting son...just telling youto get back to class so that you can take up the offer of your education system to learn how to think.

Still you said that all hijackings have been committed by Arabs in the last 20 years...

1986 -

* March 11, 1987 a Cubana de Aviación Antonov 24RV (CU-T1262) on a scheduled domestic passenger flight from Nueva Gerona (Rafael Cabrera Airport), Cuba was hijacked. The hijacker was taken down and there was one fatality.


1990's

* February 4, 1992 Luis Rodríguez hijacks a plane from Cuba with other eight people. The plane ran out of fuel and fell to the sea near Florida keys. There were no survivors.[6]

* June 7, 1996 Lieutenant Colonel José Fernández Pupo hijacked a Cubana An-2 with 10 passengers, flying from Bayamo to Santiago de Cuba, demanding at gunpoint to land in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. On May 29, 1997 he was declared not guilty by US courts.[7]

* August 16, 1996 Commercial pilot Adel Given Ulloa and other two workers of Aerotaxi, Leonardo Reyes and José Roberto Bello, force pilot Adolfo Pérez Pantoja to fly to United States. The plane ran out of fuel in the Florida straights and fell to the sea 50 km south of Fort Myers. They were collected by a Russian ship. The three were declared not guilty of hijacking by a court in Tampa. All remained in US. [8]

2000's

* September 19, 2000 An Antonov AN-2 crashed into the sea west of Cuba. Cuban authorities said the plane was hijacked after take-off from Pinar del Rio. [9]

* August 14, 2001 Elderly couple attempt to hijack the plane and force the pilot to fly to Cuba. In the ensuing scuffle the plane crashed into the sea near Florida and the couple drowned.[10]

* November 11 2002 Cuban AN-2 aircraft, registration No. CUC-1086, was hijacked. The plane landed at the Pinar del Rio airport before flying to Key West in Florida.[11]

* March 19 2003 Six men, some armed with knives, took control of a Cuban state airline plane as it headed to Havana from Cuba's Isle of Youth. US Air Force fighter jets intercepted the DC-3 plane, run by Cuban state airline Aerotaxi, shortly before it reached Florida late on Wednesday evening. The US jets then escorted the plane to Key West's airport, where the suspects surrendered without incident.[12]

* April 1, 2003 Man carrying two grenades hijacked a Cuban domestic airliner demanding that it fly to the United States, it landed in Havana due to insufficient fuel.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cuba-US_aircraft_hijackings

Hey barry....Homeroom is calling :rolleyes:

they will look for a suspect who matches the description, if there is one, now, answer my question
I told you there is one. He is an asian. So they look for an asian. It is a description of the suspect. If they find the goods in a white guys aparment than they go from their, the white guy is probably the one who gets arrested.

Now, it is staggeringly obvious that a young arab male is more of a threat to an airline than my wheelchair bound 78 year old grandmother with a heart condition. Yet they get searched equaly. Madness.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's fucking racism.
You can paint your picture with whatever magical color you can pull out of a hat, doesn't mean you arn't racist.
Actually, it's about risk assessment. You might think it's racist--and it might indeed contain some racist overtones. However, profiling is akin to charging first-time drivers more for insurance coverage than those who are more experienced.

Well, did you see that recent poll where only 7% of British Muslims said that they would put their country before Islam? That is scary.
I'm a British Atheist and I put a hell of a lot before I put "my country". Does that scare you?
I also understand that every last one of those 24 who were recently arrested are arabic Muslims. I do not believe in coincidences.
It's not a coincidence, it's state-sponsored racism.

What about Shepherd's Gate - clearly this means that 100% of Muslim males are innocent of everything if we take your logic.

No. Muslim are not more likely to highjack a plane that any other group.

In fact, if we're going to label people, I'd say that Terrorist are more likely to highjack a plane that any other group. We should go after them instead of focusing on members of the second largest religion in the world.

Not to mention the logistical nightmare that is screening every passenger for their religion.

So a Muslim is no more likely to hijack a plane than a buddhist. You are not very security oriented are you.

not insulting son...just telling youto get back to class so that you can take up the offer of your education system to learn how to think.

Still you said that all hijackings have been committed by Arabs in the last 20 years...

1986 -

* March 11, 1987 a Cubana de Aviación Antonov 24RV (CU-T1262) on a scheduled domestic passenger flight from Nueva Gerona (Rafael Cabrera Airport), Cuba was hijacked. The hijacker was taken down and there was one fatality.


1990's

* February 4, 1992 Luis Rodríguez hijacks a plane from Cuba with other eight people. The plane ran out of fuel and fell to the sea near Florida keys. There were no survivors.[6]

* June 7, 1996 Lieutenant Colonel José Fernández Pupo hijacked a Cubana An-2 with 10 passengers, flying from Bayamo to Santiago de Cuba, demanding at gunpoint to land in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. On May 29, 1997 he was declared not guilty by US courts.[7]

* August 16, 1996 Commercial pilot Adel Given Ulloa and other two workers of Aerotaxi, Leonardo Reyes and José Roberto Bello, force pilot Adolfo Pérez Pantoja to fly to United States. The plane ran out of fuel in the Florida straights and fell to the sea 50 km south of Fort Myers. They were collected by a Russian ship. The three were declared not guilty of hijacking by a court in Tampa. All remained in US. [8]

2000's

* September 19, 2000 An Antonov AN-2 crashed into the sea west of Cuba. Cuban authorities said the plane was hijacked after take-off from Pinar del Rio. [9]

* August 14, 2001 Elderly couple attempt to hijack the plane and force the pilot to fly to Cuba. In the ensuing scuffle the plane crashed into the sea near Florida and the couple drowned.[10]

* November 11 2002 Cuban AN-2 aircraft, registration No. CUC-1086, was hijacked. The plane landed at the Pinar del Rio airport before flying to Key West in Florida.[11]

* March 19 2003 Six men, some armed with knives, took control of a Cuban state airline plane as it headed to Havana from Cuba's Isle of Youth. US Air Force fighter jets intercepted the DC-3 plane, run by Cuban state airline Aerotaxi, shortly before it reached Florida late on Wednesday evening. The US jets then escorted the plane to Key West's airport, where the suspects surrendered without incident.[12]

* April 1, 2003 Man carrying two grenades hijacked a Cuban domestic airliner demanding that it fly to the United States, it landed in Havana due to insufficient fuel.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cuba-US_aircraft_hijackings

Hey barry....Homeroom is calling :rolleyes:


Hey Rubiconic, I can't help it if Cuba is so fucked up that people can and want to hijack it's airliners just to get away from Cuba.

Now, as to hijacks of a more offensive nature... meant to kill large numbers of people... bombings aboard aircraft...

let's see...

I do not automatically expect them to be a terrorist if that is what you are insinuating, because that is prejudice

I treat people equally regardless of race or religion, gender, or nationality.

Even when on particular one poses an emmense security risk? That sounds dangerous.

not insulting son...just telling youto get back to class so that you can take up the offer of your education system to learn how to think.

Still you said that all hijackings have been committed by Arabs in the last 20 years...

1986 -

* March 11, 1987 a Cubana de Aviación Antonov 24RV (CU-T1262) on a scheduled domestic passenger flight from Nueva Gerona (Rafael Cabrera Airport), Cuba was hijacked. The hijacker was taken down and there was one fatality.


1990's

* February 4, 1992 Luis Rodríguez hijacks a plane from Cuba with other eight people. The plane ran out of fuel and fell to the sea near Florida keys. There were no survivors.[6]

* June 7, 1996 Lieutenant Colonel José Fernández Pupo hijacked a Cubana An-2 with 10 passengers, flying from Bayamo to Santiago de Cuba, demanding at gunpoint to land in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. On May 29, 1997 he was declared not guilty by US courts.[7]

* August 16, 1996 Commercial pilot Adel Given Ulloa and other two workers of Aerotaxi, Leonardo Reyes and José Roberto Bello, force pilot Adolfo Pérez Pantoja to fly to United States. The plane ran out of fuel in the Florida straights and fell to the sea 50 km south of Fort Myers. They were collected by a Russian ship. The three were declared not guilty of hijacking by a court in Tampa. All remained in US. [8]

2000's

* September 19, 2000 An Antonov AN-2 crashed into the sea west of Cuba. Cuban authorities said the plane was hijacked after take-off from Pinar del Rio. [9]

* August 14, 2001 Elderly couple attempt to hijack the plane and force the pilot to fly to Cuba. In the ensuing scuffle the plane crashed into the sea near Florida and the couple drowned.[10]

* November 11 2002 Cuban AN-2 aircraft, registration No. CUC-1086, was hijacked. The plane landed at the Pinar del Rio airport before flying to Key West in Florida.[11]

* March 19 2003 Six men, some armed with knives, took control of a Cuban state airline plane as it headed to Havana from Cuba's Isle of Youth. US Air Force fighter jets intercepted the DC-3 plane, run by Cuban state airline Aerotaxi, shortly before it reached Florida late on Wednesday evening. The US jets then escorted the plane to Key West's airport, where the suspects surrendered without incident.[12]

* April 1, 2003 Man carrying two grenades hijacked a Cuban domestic airliner demanding that it fly to the United States, it landed in Havana due to insufficient fuel.[13]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cuba-US_aircraft_hijackings

Hey barry....Homeroom is calling :rolleyes:

None of those were American airliners. You missed the boat.

Easy. It works for El Al. It also is being tested in the US at this moment. The UK is now thinking of adapting the same methods.

The very fact that they are considering it seriously means that it's not bullshit. The fact that El Al hasn't been hijacked despite repeated attempts to board (since 1968) is also proof that it works.

Fuck race relations. We didn't blow up the World Trade Center.

No. The system you propose, which I detail in the earlier post, is not the same system as El Al, according to the Wiki article you posted.

If we applied the El Al system in US and UK airports, we would have everyone whisked into the special room and all of them thoroughly searched and screened. All pilots flying on UK and US airline would have to be former air force. All the crew would have to be trained in hand to hand combat.

Your system of racial and religious profiling does none of these things. Now prove that your system would work.

Prove it.

Hey Rubiconic, I can't help it if Cuba is so fucked up that people can and want to hijack it's airliners just to get away from Cuba.

Now, as to hijacks of a more offensive nature... meant to kill large numbers of people... bombings aboard aircraft...

let's see...
You obviously missed the one hijacking going into Cuba in your blanket bullshit.

Now, it is staggeringly obvious that a young arab male is more of a threat to an airline than my wheelchair bound 78 year old grandmother with a heart condition. Yet they get searched equaly. Madness.
I'm white and ethnic British/Scandinavian, and I pose just as much of a threat as anyone else on board a plane.

Who knows that the grandmother isn't hiding semtex inside her wheel-rims?

What makes young Arab males any more of a threat than young white males?

It's not madness, it's common sense.

So a Muslim is no more likely to hijack a plane than a buddhist. You are not very security oriented are you.
Show me one reason why the Muslim religion predispose people to highjack a plane. Give me one correlating fact about the Muslim religion that show a higher tendency to go out and highjack a plane.

Go on. I'm waiting.

I told you there is one. He is an asian. So they look for an asian. It is a description of the suspect. If they find the goods in a white guys aparment than they go from their, the white guy is probably the one who gets arrested.

Now, it is staggeringly obvious that a young arab male is more of a threat to an airline than my wheelchair bound 78 year old grandmother with a heart condition. Yet they get searched equaly. Madness.

nice evasion SHOULD the white guy be arrested?

yes fine look for a suspect that fits the description that has EVIDENCE on him

DO NOT arrest and convict the first asian you see

Hey Rubiconic, I can't help it if Cuba is so fucked up that people can and want to hijack it's airliners just to get away from Cuba.

Now, as to hijacks of a more offensive nature... meant to kill large numbers of people... bombings aboard aircraft...

let's see...

Hey DK...guess what? That was aimed in reply to a rather stupid question by bazza...

Now a question for you DK...

Do you understand why profiling does not work, and the difference between profiling and what El Al do?

Everyone who hyjacks American planes.....at least for the last 20 years...is a muslim.

including auburn calloway?

I'm a British Atheist and I put a hell of a lot before I put "my country". Does that scare you?

It's not a coincidence, it's state-sponsored racism.

What about Shepherd's Gate - clearly this means that 100% of Muslim males are innocent of everything if we take your logic.

One incident never changes a larger trend. And yeah, athiests make me sad, they don't scare me. It is sad because they have no life after death.

Hey Rubiconic, I can't help it if Cuba is so fucked up that people can and want to hijack it's airliners just to get away from Cuba.

Now, as to hijacks of a more offensive nature... meant to kill large numbers of people... bombings aboard aircraft...

let's see...
Learn to read, fool.

Just remember - Cuba is not that bad compared to most Caribbean states, and that Fidel is perfectly alright.

None of those were American airliners. You missed the boat.
and where, pray tell, did you specify American airliners?

Shifting the goalpost?

No. The system you propose, which I detail in the earlier post, is not the same system as El Al, according to the Wiki article you posted.

If we applied the El Al system in US and UK airports, we would have everyone whisked into the special room and all of them thoroughly searched and screened. All pilots flying on UK and US airline would have to be former air force. All the crew would have to be trained in hand to hand combat.

Your system of racial and religious profiling does none of these things. Now prove that your system would work.

Prove it.

Training.

So a Muslim is no more likely to hijack a plane than a buddhist. You are not very security oriented are you.

nice accuse all who disagree as being against security
Classic right-winger classic

thats the most important thing to you?

No. That's why it is only one samll point in my post. What I asked was for Deep Kimchi to prove that his definition of racial and religious profiling would work. He has yet to do so.

Now, it is staggeringly obvious that a young arab male is more of a threat to an airline than my wheelchair bound 78 year old grandmother with a heart condition. Yet they get searched equaly. Madness.

No, it isn't. My young arab male friend from Indiana isn't a threat to a plane at all. Your grandmother with a heart condition might cause a commotion on board if she needs medical attention during the flight.

Hey Rubiconic, I can't help it if Cuba is so fucked up that people can and want to hijack it's airliners just to get away from Cuba.

a significant percentage of the total u.s. hijackings have also been for transportation to cuba

nice evasion SHOULD the white guy be arrested?

yes fine look for a suspect that fits the description that has EVIDENCE on him

DO NOT arrest and convict the first asian you see

He should be arrested if it is a crime to possess stolen goods.
I said nothing about arressts or convictions, especially the first person one sees. You made that part up. I asked who they look for. You answered based on race. I want the same thing done at airports.

a significant percentage of the total u.s. hijackings have also been for transportation to cuba
In the past ten years?

One incident never changes a larger trend.
Yes it does... do you just not know about how to do mean averages or something?

Please answer my point, also, ta.
And yeah, athiests make me sad, they don't scare me. It is sad because they have no life after death.
Unlike if you're a Christian where it magically appears out of nothing, correct?

And are you actually scared of Muslims?

That worries me slightly, they're just human beings with a slightly different Abrahimic religion to yourself - oh noes!

One incident never changes a larger trend. And yeah, athiests make me sad, they don't scare me. It is sad because they have no life after death.
so, in your bizzaro world, what you believe is what actually happens after death? That explains so much. You seem frustated because Muslim gets virgins while all you have looking for to is fire and brimstone.

including auburn calloway?

That was not an airline flight, and it was an employee not a passager. Try again.

No, it isn't. My young arab male friend from Indiana isn't a threat to a plane at all. Your grandmother with a heart condition might cause a commotion on board if she needs medical attention during the flight.
A commotion is not necessarily a threat to the security of the plane, however. A baby could have a really smelly diaper, causing a bit of an issue if the parent-in-question isn't able to take care of it quickly. However, that's not anything to do with the security of the plane.

Learn to read, fool.

Just remember - Cuba is not that bad compared to most Caribbean states, and that Fidel is perfectly alright.


Yeah, that average income of $3500 per year is hard to spend in one place. Maybe one of the fine prison camps for political dissenters.

and where, pray tell, did you specify American airliners?

Shifting the goalpost?
"Everyone who hyjacks American planes.....at least for the last 20 years...is a muslim."

I said it from the start.

He should be arrested if it is a crime to possess stolen goods.
I said nothing about arressts or convictions, especially the first person one sees. You made that part up. I asked who they look for. You answered based on race. I want the same thing done at airports.

I said based on description if a victim says "i got mugged by a 4 foot tall black midget with a peg-leg" you don't look for kobe bryant now do you

Training.

What does this word have to do with the post you quoted?

nice accuse all who disagree as being against security
Classic right-winger classic
You said that a buddhist was as likely to hijack a plane as a Muslim. That is just not good security. In fact, it is bad. Almost purposefully bad.

Yeah, that average income of $3500 per year is hard to spend in one place. Maybe one of the fine prison camps for political dissenters.
People only need $3500 of spending money a year because the state provides so much for them...

Cuban health care kicks the US' arse, so does its education - very close to 100% of Cubans can read - something the US isn't quite as good at.



And compare it to Haita, where the US succeeded in a capitalist revolution - nice, eh?

I bet they're wishing that they'd had a Bay of Pigs style win in hindsight.

No. That's why it is only one samll point in my post. What I asked was for Deep Kimchi to prove that his definition of racial and religious profiling would work. He has yet to do so.

Train them.

Yes it does... do you just not know about how to do mean averages or something?

Please answer my point, also, ta.

Unlike if you're a Christian where it magically appears out of nothing, correct?

And are you actually scared of Muslims?

That worries me slightly, they're just human beings with a slightly different Abrahimic religion to yourself - oh noes!

I do not hate Muslims. I hate no person. I do not trust them. Big difference.

Train them.
To do what?

Wotcher! Brown guy with a turban alert!

I said based on description if a victim says "i got mugged by a 4 foot tall black midget with a peg-leg" you don't look for kobe bryant now do you
A description is a type of profile. If you don't use the "profile".....

so, in your bizzaro world, what you believe is what actually happens after death? That explains so much. You seem frustated because Muslim gets virgins while all you have looking for to is fire and brimstone.

The Muslim religion is an error.

Train them.

Train who? To do what?

What does this word have to do with the post you quoted?
His plan works when you train people to carry out what he is calling for.

None of those were American airliners. You missed the boat.

Barrygoldwater

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,601

Quote:

so it is a coincidence that every airline hyjacking of the past 20 years was by arabs? Or was it a coincidence that in Britain only 7% of Muslims put Britain first? Your lack of a serious response is laughable.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11550708


I believe the word is OWNAGE.

Now bugger off back to school son.

You said that a buddhist was as likely to hijack a plane as a Muslim. That is just not good security. In fact, it is bad. Almost purposefully bad.


1. no I did not.
2.there you go accusing me of aiding terrorism, go hug Sen. McCarthys leg

I do not hate Muslims. I hate no person. I do not trust them. Big difference.
That's fear.

And please address my original point - what's to say that your grandmother doesn't have semtex in her wheel-rims, or that I'm not also doing something nefarious on an aeroplane?

A Muslim poses no more threat that you or I.

People only need $3500 of spending money a year because the state provides so much for them...

Cuban health care kicks the US' arse, so does its education - very close to 100% of Cubans can read - something the US isn't quite as good at.



And compare it to Haita, where the US succeeded in a capitalist revolution - nice, eh?

I bet they're wishing that they'd had a Bay of Pigs style win in hindsight.

And since Cuba is such a great place to live Florida is being swamped with boatload after boatload of people who want to escape.:D

What does this word have to do with the post you quoted?
The parody is either getting sloppy or going completely senile cause he did that with me the other day too

I have better things to do with now. Like go for a swim. Have nice lives and fly safe.

That's fear.

And please address my original point - what's to say that your grandmother doesn't have semtex in her wheel-rims, or that I'm not also doing something nefarious on an aeroplane?

A Muslim poses no more threat that you or I.

Statistics don't seem to bear that out.

Who blew up more airliners - old grandmothers in wheelchairs, or Muslims?

Who flew more airliners into buildings?

Mmm?

The Muslim religion is an error.

I think we're getting to the head of the snake

The Muslim religion is an error.
Genius.

I have better things to do with now. Like go for a swim. Have nice lives and fly safe.
Best get running before we're onto you, eh?

In the past ten years?

nah, more back when there actually were hijackings. we've got almost none these days.

That's fear.

And please address my original point - what's to say that your grandmother doesn't have semtex in her wheel-rims, or that I'm not also doing something nefarious on an aeroplane?

A Muslim poses no more threat that you or I.
The overwhelming majority of terrorists are Muslims. Haven't you been following the news?

And since Cuba is such a great place to live Florida is being swamped with boatload after boatload of people who want to escape.:D
I think you'll find most of the Cuban exiles are considered criminals in Cuba and were kicked out, and the US harbours them, as it harbours IRA leaders.

The overwhelming majority of terrorists are Muslims. Haven't you been following the news?
I really hope you're being sarcastic.

I really, really do.

That was not an airline flight, and it was an employee not a passager. Try again.
so now it's "American airline, airline flight and must be highjacked by passenger"? Where will be the next goalpost?

I think you'll find most of the Cuban exiles are considered criminals in Cuba and were kicked out, and the US harbours them, as it harbours IRA leaders.
Any proof for this?

His plan works when you train people to carry out what he is calling for.

He has not proven that it has done so. He has not explained how this machine is supposed to work. He does not explain how security guards are supposed to tell if someone is middle eastern or not. He has not explained how the additional screening is different than the normal screening, he does not explain how racial and religious profiling is a more potent security measure than the El Al systems that he has not specified in his system, or if they will be used.

To be honest, he hasn't explained much at all.

Will you?

I have better things to do with now. Like go for a swim. Have nice lives and fly safe.

you 0wn3d.

too chicken to admit it though...don't let your hatred kill you...

have a nice day now ;)

One incident never changes a larger trend. And yeah, athiests make me sad, they don't scare me. It is sad because they have no life after death.

And if we're right neither do you ;)

The Muslim religion is an error.Prove it.

I really hope you're being sarcastic.

I really, really do.
Today, most of the terrorist attacks in Europe and in the US are Islamic in motivation.

Or do you not keep up on current events, and want to ascribe their motivations to other reasons?

The leader of the cell in the UK was a prominent public figure and speaker, who kept saying that we have nothing to fear from Muslims - they are no more of a risk than anyone else - while he was making bombs in his flat, while he was recruiting people to carry them aboard aircraft.

Singled out by publications such as Time Magazine as one of the top intellectuals in the world - a Wahhabi extremist Muslim whose beliefs brought him to want to commit terrorism on a grand scale.

Any proof for this?
'Fraid not, the Cuban government doesn't really like to talk about the exiles, and the Exiles say they left because "they didn't like Cuba", much as people who are too wimpy to fight say "He wasn't worth it" or whatever.

Genius.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I+AM+ERROR

That sums up Barry.

Prove it.
I think it's more of an opinion than a fact. You can't call a religion an error because it's part of history, and history has no errors. History just is.

If you think about it, though, Christianity and Islam are merely heresies of Judaism.

of course I hear no mention of profiling Tamils....

:rolleyes: