NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm going to take some sweet time out of my life to post some of my personal rants about politics with some countries. Everyone has their permission to voice their opinion.

Ponderable #1:

Why the hell is the United States businesses investing in foreign workforces? I can understand the cheaper labour, but what the hell is wrong with them? Are they ashamed of being American?

I'm all for the All-American dream, but what exactly is All-American anymore? Most of our electronics and vehicles are being built by foreign companies in second-third world countries. This is puting our revenue into their society. Which, in the long run, is taking money from the United States. One of the only companies that I know is mostly All-American is the Ford Motor Company in Detroit. What the hell happened? Now the American people are losing their jobs to cheap labour forces on foreign lands...and there is nothing they can do about it!

My uncle works as a manager up there at Microsoft. He was given the choice between one United States employee, or two people from India to take up a job opening. They told him that those two people may not be as efficient as the one, but they would cost a heck of alot less.

Err..OKAY?! It's not like the United States does not have money! Hell, they've got plenty of it! Might be a bit in the red, but they are still up and running! The country is falling under Corporation Corruption!

Now, tell me your opinions. I wanna hear what you have to say.

Done ranting, for now.

Ponderable #2:

I hate the Freedom of Press. If you have watched the news lately, you can see that the Press are the ones starting all of this hatred towards our political leaders!

They have also supported Illegal immigrants. When they (the II's) were about to go on that one day strike, the bloody news stations told every freaking person where they were going to be held, and at what times! The Press warps the minds of people into thinking about their biased beliefs!

Ranting done.

They told him that those two people may not be as efficient as the one, but they would cost a heck of alot less.

Err..OKAY?! It's not like the United States does not have money! Hell, they've got plenty of it! Might be a bit in the red, but they are still up and running! The country is falling under Corporation Corruption!

Now, tell me your opinions. I wanna hear what you have to say.

Done ranting, for now.


Easy, greed. Next ponderable!

Ponderable #2:

I hate the Freedom of Press. If you have watched the news lately, you can see that the Press are the ones starting all of this hatred towards our political leaders!

They have also supported Illegal immigrants. When they (the II's) were about to go on that one day strike, the bloody news stations told every freaking person where they were going to be held, and at what times! The Press warps the minds of people into thinking about their biased beliefs!

Ranting done.


Let me ask you this, you say that the press warps the minds of people into thinking about their(I'm guessing you mean the press here?) biased beiefs. Yet you see through this are you absolutly sure that others do not do the same? Are you not implying that on the whole people are stupid and thus let the press get away with their biased games? Also biased belifes, are not all belifes biased? What you belive is also biased, so exactly which biased belife/s do we belive because of the awesome, unfettered power of the press then?

One of the only companies that I know is mostly All-American is the Ford Motor Company in Detroit. What the hell happened? Now the American people are losing their jobs to cheap labour forces on foreign lands...and there is nothing they can do about it!


I feel your pain Dephire. But--the fact that a typical US auto worker makes 28 dollars an hour and has an attitude about what he/she will or won't do (yes, I'm acquainted with some Union employees at Ford) probably has something to do with why companies are sending jobs overseas where people will happily work for 1/3 of the cost.

Chuckles

Not really. I think that the minds should be educated with better crap than that of this "free press" idea. But oh well. I'm just letting some steam blow off the top.

Next Ponderable in a few...

Ponderable #1:

Why the hell is the United States businesses investing in foreign workforces? I can understand the cheaper labour, but what the hell is wrong with them? Are they ashamed of being American?

I'm all for the All-American dream, but what exactly is All-American anymore? Most of our electronics and vehicles are being built by foreign companies in second-third world countries. This is puting our revenue into their society. Which, in the long run, is taking money from the United States. One of the only companies that I know is mostly All-American is the Ford Motor Company in Detroit. What the hell happened? Now the American people are losing their jobs to cheap labour forces on foreign lands...and there is nothing they can do about it!

My uncle works as a manager up there at Microsoft. He was given the choice between one United States employee, or two people from India to take up a job opening. They told him that those two people may not be as efficient as the one, but they would cost a heck of alot less.

Err..OKAY?! It's not like the United States does not have money! Hell, they've got plenty of it! Might be a bit in the red, but they are still up and running! The country is falling under Corporation Corruption!

Now, tell me your opinions. I wanna hear what you have to say.

Done ranting, for now.

You can thank the UAW (United Auto Workers) for that. Not only do the auto workers get paid VERY well for their services, but the benefits and vacation packages are hard to beat. Ironically, they don't know much about cars. When I was a student learning auto repair, we took a field trip to the GM assembly plant in Baltimore. We occasionally asked questions of the workers about what they do, and they had no clue. They just stand there and zip on bolts or zap power tools. For that, they get paid more than many mechanics who have to come back later after the same car has thousands of miles on it and diagnose/service/repair it.

The worst part about it, is that the typical UAW member acts like they're ENTITLED to all that. Not that they should EARN it. They want to know what's in it for them. (Like in most industries in the USA)

In other countries, the mentality is different. Take Japan for example. A typical Japanese auto worker is much more loyal to his employer and likely to go the extra mile because he takes pride in his work, and owns his responsibility. It would be a matter of embarassment if he isn't doing his best to produce the best work possible.

Little wonder cars assembled in Japan hold up better than ones assembled in the USA, regardless of brand. (Yes they do. I would know.)

The economy of the USA is a free market economy, which means (nominally) that companies are free to conduct business as they see fit, which means making decisions on how to maximize profit. if that means sending the plant to Mexico where the workforce is less costly (greedy) then that's what they'll do to keep the prices of their cars competitive. It's not about corporate greed. If they keep all plants domestic and pay all UAW workers to assemble them, most of their car lines would be priced beyond the average person's ability to buy one.

Ponderable #2:

I hate the Freedom of Press. If you have watched the news lately, you can see that the Press are the ones starting all of this hatred towards our political leaders!

They have also supported Illegal immigrants. When they (the II's) were about to go on that one day strike, the bloody news stations told every freaking person where they were going to be held, and at what times! The Press warps the minds of people into thinking about their biased beliefs!

Ranting done.

News organizations are moneymaking enterprises. It's business. We like to think about th enobility of the press and the idealism and so on, but at the end of the day, CNN, Fox News and MSNBC are out to do what any American company is out to do:Make a profit.

That means they need to get as many people watching their channel as possible. Since the majority of the media market is in Major US cities, they target those audiences. What do you find in American cities? Mostly Democrat and liberal demographics. So, if you're the CEO of a news agency, and yuo want the people in the cities (where the bulk of yuor market is) to watch, what do you do?

You give them what they want. You tell them what they want to hear. If people in cities were predominantly conservative, then the news media would be, too. Fox News tends to be more conservative than the rest, mainly because they're taking the viewers left over from the others who want a more conservative lean. That doesn't make them fair nor noble, it's just their market strategy.

So what would happen, hypothetically speaking of course, if say...China goes to war with the United States? There goes a large majority of our workforce. I guess I'm trying to say that we are almost too dependant in foreign workforces than our own. Also, Next Ponderable!

Ponderable #3:

Why can't we just take pride in our work? :p

Ponderable #2:

I hate the Freedom of Press. If you have watched the news lately, you can see that the Press are the ones starting all of this hatred towards our political leaders!Oh my God. Our government isn't infallable, you're supposed to question it! Of course we in the fourth estate are going to expose fraud and general janky behavior in the government. I honestly don't understand the sentiment that says it's bad to question the goverment. This is the entity that has been anihilating our right to liberty for the past hundred years in exchange for a lofty and unattainable goal called "security". And you're saying we should blindly trust them without scrutiny of the press? If you seriously want that in a government, move to North Korea.

They have also supported Illegal immigrants. When they (the II's) were about to go on that one day strike, the bloody news stations told every freaking person where they were going to be held, and at what times! The Press warps the minds of people into thinking about their biased beliefs!
Wait. You do realize that when the press says "Protests will be held at X, Y and Z," they're just reporting the news, right? Unless they're saying "the oppressed masses will be organizing for the revolution against the Bush administration tomorrow. Be there at nine, wear black, and bring a gun", there's no real problem. I don't see at all how you can equate informing people about protests with warping the minds of people. Would you rather they not report the news? I mean, when there are massive protests in like thirty cities, how would you expect them to deal with that? You want them to just not mention it at all? If that's what you think, you're are quite possibly the stupidest person I've ever met. I just hope that if that's the case, you neither breed nor vote.

So what would happen, hypothetically speaking of course, if say...China goes to war with the United States? There goes a large majority of our workforce. I guess I'm trying to say that we are almost too dependant in foreign workforces than our own. Also, Next Ponderable!

Ponderable #3:

Why can't we just take pride in our work? :p
We do. But if it's between an $18,000 car made entirely in America or a $12,000 car made in Mexico, Canada, Brazil, Japan, et cetera, and they are equal quality, I'm going for the cheaper option. You know what we call that? Free-market Capitalism. Don't like it? Well, you could always try socialism.

I mean, when there are massive protests in like thirty cities, how would you expect them to deal with that? You want them to just not mention it at all? If that's what you think, you're are quite possibly the stupidest person I've ever met. I just hope that if that's the case, you neither breed nor vote.

I think Dephire's intent was to question the way these events were covered. Ideally, the news would simply report the facts of the event and no more, but as I recall, they DID seem to be very sympathetic to one side vs. the other. That is worth questioning.

Why the hell is the United States businesses investing in foreign workforces? I can understand the cheaper labour, but what the hell is wrong with them? Are they ashamed of being American?
Companies that value nationalism above sound business practices are doomed to fail. Therefore all successful companies must act in their own best interest to keep their position.

Good points, good points!
BTW, no harsh flaming. Like I said, it's just my opinion. So the remark about being an idiot was uncalled for. Thank you.

I personally like watching CNN instead of the local news channels.

Ponderable #4:

This is venturing off that topic for a bit and onto a local problem. Okay, where I live there is this supposed "Seven-Toed Frog" that is being protected by the Tri-County area. People have speculated that it's the last remaining frog, and as such..they won't expand. OMG! It's ONE FROG! I know, you could be possibly thinking, "Well, if you were the last of your species, would you like to be killed?" Go Hug a Tree damn hippy! (Kidding. I'm in love with a hippy myself.) They just won't expand the area because of this one particular frog. And trust me, this area needs expansion! They have dedicated nearly 85% of the land to trees. Actually, It's closer to 90%. There isn't even all that much here anyways!

Well, there's your fourth.

Companies that value nationalism above sound business practices are doomed to fail. Therefore all successful companies must act in their own best interest to keep their position.

That's exactly right. Think of the state of American cars in the 1980s. Many of them were using outdated engines with a patchwork of thrown-on emissions and fuel regulations controls thrown on top. Some even got so bad they were using foreign built engines in American cars. Bodies were poorly constructed and electronics were in tatters.

Why?

Because they knew that there were legionis of people out there who would be loyal to their brand no matter what. "I'd rather push my Chevy than drive a Nissan" became a self-fulfilling prophecy. So why should Chevrolet spend millions in R&D to make new and better products when there were legions of suckers out there who would buy whatever crap rolled off the production line just because it had the Chevy bowtie on it?

That's why Japanese cars were vastly superior to American cars in the 80s, and it wasn't until the mis 90s that American atuo designers managed to catch up and start putting out a better product. People got wise to the game.

Seriously. I love my country, and I want to see it succeed and everything about it successful, but that's not going to happen unless we force our domestic manufacturers to make the very best product in the world. As in any free market, you make that happen by forcing them to compete. Let competition work its magic and only be loyal to a brand that deserves your loyalty.

By the way, Dephire, that answers your question about taking pride in our work.

I'm going to take some sweet time out of my life to post some of my personal rants about politics with some countries. Everyone has their permission to voice their opinion.

Ponderable #1:

Why the hell is the United States businesses investing in foreign workforces? I can understand the cheaper labour, but what the hell is wrong with them? Are they ashamed of being American?

I'm all for the All-American dream, but what exactly is All-American anymore? Most of our electronics and vehicles are being built by foreign companies in second-third world countries. This is puting our revenue into their society. Which, in the long run, is taking money from the United States. One of the only companies that I know is mostly All-American is the Ford Motor Company in Detroit. What the hell happened? Now the American people are losing their jobs to cheap labour forces on foreign lands...and there is nothing they can do about it!

My uncle works as a manager up there at Microsoft. He was given the choice between one United States employee, or two people from India to take up a job opening. They told him that those two people may not be as efficient as the one, but they would cost a heck of alot less.

Err..OKAY?! It's not like the United States does not have money! Hell, they've got plenty of it! Might be a bit in the red, but they are still up and running! The country is falling under Corporation Corruption!

Now, tell me your opinions. I wanna hear what you have to say.

Done ranting, for now.

Anger against a corporation for fufilling the role of corporations is illogical. Corporations exist to deliver the largest profit possible. They can make a larger profit by outsourcing, therefore they do.

I mean, when there are massive protests in like thirty cities, how would you expect them to deal with that? You want them to just not mention it at all? If that's what you think, you're are quite possibly the stupidest person I've ever met. I just hope that if that's the case, you neither breed nor vote.

What I was trying to say was that they seemed to pity the Illegal Immigrants. I don't mind watching it on tellevision, but seeing them telling everyone where to be and what to wear kinda got me upset.

It also upset me seeing how many damn people SUPPORTED the illegal immigrants. That's what they are, ILLEGAL!

Don't get me wrong, I support Legal Immigration, but I hate Illegal Immigration.

[QUOTE=Dephire]Good points, good points!
This is venturing off that topic for a bit and onto a local problem. Okay, where I live there is this supposed "Seven-Toed Frog" that is being protected by the Tri-County area. People have speculated that it's the last remaining frog, and as such..they won't expand. OMG! It's ONE FROG! I know, you could be possibly thinking, "Well, if you were the last of your species, would you like to be killed?" QUOTE]

He. If it's the last one then the species is already done. They shouyld catch it, photograph the hell out of it, freeze a DNA sample, then keep it in a nice safe aquarium while the land gets developed.

Kinda reminds me of a story of two seals that were rehabilitated over months and months at a substantial cost in time and resources after being harmed by a crude oil spill. These seals were eventually healthy enough to be set free. It was, of course, a media circus as the seals were majectically released into the water. The crowds cheered, photos were taken, and then a passing whale came along and ate them. Right in front of everybody.

Wouldn't it be funny if that seven-toed-frog gets eaten by an animal?

Hm. Maybe that aquarium isn't such a bad idea...

Ponderable #2:

I hate the Freedom of Press. If you have watched the news lately, you can see that the Press are the ones starting all of this hatred towards our political leaders!

They have also supported Illegal immigrants. When they (the II's) were about to go on that one day strike, the bloody news stations told every freaking person where they were going to be held, and at what times! The Press warps the minds of people into thinking about their biased beliefs!

Ranting done.

Several points here.

First, these news corporations are corporations. Better ratings beget more profit. They show what they think people will watch.

Second, any major political leader today will be mocked. Fact of life. If they can't deal with that, they shouldn't become political leaders.

Third, you don't think that a strike qualifies as news?

Fourth, they're warping their minds into thinking about their biased beliefs? Nothing wrong with thinking about any belief. Biased beliefs is also somewhat redundant, no?

What I was trying to say was that they seemed to pity the Illegal Immigrants. I don't mind watching it on tellevision, but seeing them telling everyone where to be and what to wear kinda got me upset.

It also upset me seeing how many damn people SUPPORTED the illegal immigrants. That's what they are, ILLEGAL!

Don't get me wrong, I support Legal Immigration, but I hate Illegal Immigration.

You see, if we just conquered Mexico, there wouldn't be any more problems with illegal immigration, as they'd all be Americans. *nod*

This is venturing off that topic for a bit and onto a local problem. Okay, where I live there is this supposed "Seven-Toed Frog" that is being protected by the Tri-County area. People have speculated that it's the last remaining frog, and as such..they won't expand. OMG! It's ONE FROG! I know, you could be possibly thinking, "Well, if you were the last of your species, would you like to be killed?" Go Hug a Tree damn hippy! (Kidding. I'm in love with a hippy myself.) They just won't expand the area because of this one particular frog. And trust me, this area needs expansion! They have dedicated nearly 85% of the land to trees. Actually, It's closer to 90%. There isn't even all that much here anyways!
Well, people speculating that it's the last one means there could be more. They're erring on the side of caution it seems. There's an economic principle about whether whether the timber or the forest is more valuable. Of course, that's just a metaphor, but you can see the point. Let's say for the sake of argument they were putting in a supermarket in that location. If the company preserves it, they can say in their ads "We here a Example Markets care about the environment, blah blah blah". People think that they care, so they shop at their local Example Market.

By the by, there was a qualifier on the "stupidest person I've met" comment. I said that if you thought that the press shouldn't have covered the event at all, you would be. I was hoping to get a "no, they should have, but…" out of you. And you should be wary when you post things like "I hate the freedom of the press". We in the press (well, college paper in my case) don't take too kindly to that.

You see, if we just conquered Mexico, there wouldn't be any more problems with illegal immigration, as they'd all be Americans. *nod*

Ah yes, then they would think that because they are Americans, they would deserve better. Not only that, but the economy would drop substantially. The unemployment rate would spike. Drug traffic would be much much higher. They would bring down the overall Education Level. The United States would have to push more strongly towards learning Spanish as a second language...

Only good thing that I can see is hot babes!:p

Ah yes, then they would think that because they are Americans, they would deserve better. Not only that, but the economy would drop substantially. The unemployment rate would spike. Drug traffic would be much much higher. They would bring down the overall Education Level. The United States would have to push more strongly towards learning Spanish as a second language...

Only good thing that I can see is hot babes!:p

Look at the other way. Mexico's economy would raise. Their unemployment would drop. With the US in charge, they could crack down (no pun intended) on drug dealers in Mexico. Raise their education level.

And why is multi-linguism a bad thing?

What I was trying to say was that they seemed to pity the Illegal Immigrants. I don't mind watching it on tellevision, but seeing them telling everyone where to be and what to wear kinda got me upset.

It also upset me seeing how many damn people SUPPORTED the illegal immigrants. That's what they are, ILLEGAL!

Don't get me wrong, I support Legal Immigration, but I hate Illegal Immigration.
Hey, me too. Of course, by "supporting legal immigration" I mean "laxing immigration laws so that illegal immigration is a thing of the past". That's pretty much why I hate the argument "It's illegal". Laws can change. If people want to march to get those laws changed, that's their right. If you'll remember correctly, that's what they were marching for, to be made LEGAL immigrants.

And why is multi-linguism a bad thing?
There are three states with two official languages, after all.

And you should be wary when you post things like "I hate the freedom of the press". We in the press (well, college paper in my case) don't take too kindly to that.

Which I find devastatingly ironic

Okay, now this is my father's side. RIP Dad. -Says small prayer-

"Illegal Immigrants are not Citizens of the United States and thus have no rights to protest. If they want the right to protest, then they should go back to Mexico and pay just like the legal immigrants."

Mind you, that was what my dad said, and not me.

Which I find devastatingly ironic
Expand, please.

Expand, please.

Well, my amazing powers of detection tell me that his theory is the following.

Freedom of Press is tied into Freedom of Speech.

You're telling him that he probably shouldn't say things like that.

See?

Ah well. I like excercising my Freedom of Speech!:p

Ponderable #5:

If the United States is the Supposed world power, then why is our military suffering such "heavy" losses?

(Okay, now I'm going to sound like a complete jerk, and I'm sorry for those that this might insult or hurt...but...the losses of the United States Army isn't that bad. Actually, it was pretty much a given. At least it wasn't like the high amounts in Vietnam, Korea, and WW I & II.)

Which also goes to..

Ponderable #6:

Since when does gay marriage relate to a soldier's funeral? Have you seen sometimes on the news how people actually hold a protest at a soldier's funeral? Give the man/woman some peace for God's sake! They are already dead! Wait, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH GAY MARRIAGE?!

Okay, now this is my father's side. RIP Dad. -Says small prayer-

"Illegal Immigrants are not Citizens of the United States and thus have no rights to protest. If they want the right to protest, then they should go back to Mexico and pay just like the legal immigrants."

Mind you, that was what my dad said, and not me.
There have been some Supreme Court cases deciding what rights noncitizens have in the US. I think that they are in fact guarateed all rights and freedoms. Which if you think about it, makes sense. If the City of Los Angeles had a law against public demonstration, it would be struck down as uncunstitutional, wouldn't it? Even if they required a notice of mass demonstration, there is at least one citizen in the protest who can put his or her name on the paperwork. I participated in a rally in favor of the Senate amnesty on campus, and I'm a citizen.

And now an anecdote about illegal immigration:
The only illegal immigrant I've met was a girl in my school here on an expired residency visa. Her father came to the States for a job, but he got fired for some reason, and lost his work visa. His family all lost their visas too because theirs were tied to his employment. They didn't want to return to their home country, so they just stayed for a couple of years. The end result? Well, the INS caught wind of this, and they had her and her family deported back to the United Kingdom. I doubt you would've looked at this girl from when I was in high school and say, "Damned illegals! Go back to where you came from!" Or maybe you would, I dunno.

Expand, please.

Well someone else already summed it up for me, but by way of completeness, I'll respond.

Someone makes a comment about the Freedom of the Press, and was shouted down and told to be careful about doing so, essentially for exercising his own Free Speech.

Well, my amazing powers of detection tell me that his theory is the following.

Freedom of Press is tied into Freedom of Speech.

You're telling him that he probably shouldn't say things like that.

See?
So? Haha. I'm not the government. I hold very dear to this old quote: "I don't like what he says, but I'll fight to the death for his right to say it." I mean, you CAN say a lot of things, but there a lot of things you probably shouldn't say. You can say what you want, but just be aware you're going to piss people off by saying you hate the right to free press.

If the United States is the Supposed world power, then why is our military suffering such "heavy" losses?

(Okay, now I'm going to sound like a complete jerk, and I'm sorry for those that this might insult or hurt...but...the losses of the United States Army isn't that bad. Actually, it was pretty much a given. At least it wasn't like the high amounts in Vietnam, Korea, and WW I & II.)
We're not. That's media spin. In Vietnam, 55,000 American soldiers were lost. In Iraq, we're not even at 3,000.

You want to know what heavy losses are? In the Civil War we lost 55,000 in the Battle of Gettysburg alone.

I just love perspective.


Ponderable #6:

Since when does gay marriage relate to a soldier's funeral? Have you seen sometimes on the news how people actually hold a protest at a soldier's funeral? Give the man/woman some peace for God's sake! They are already dead! Wait, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH GAY MARRIAGE?!

It has nothing to do with it. This is an example of a very aggressive pastor and his lemmings taking it upon themselves to show a miserable example of Christianity. To protest against homosexuality at the funeral of a fallen soldier is not only inapropriate but NOT in accordance with Christian philosophy. Christianity is about love, not pouring salt into someone's wounds.

I doubt you would've looked at this girl from when I was in high school and say, "Damned illegals! Go back to where you came from!" Or maybe you would, I dunno.


Actually, I would think that that incident would be Legal Immigration with complications...

Everyone seems to have a story about some innocuous illegal immigrant they know or are acquainted with. Nobody is saying that ALL illegal immigrants are harmful or out to take advantage of the system. The problem is, there are a vast number that are here precisely for that reason, and aren't the warm cuddlybears they're made out to be.

Consider this also:

A person who remains in this country against the law is ALREADY demonstrating a lack of respect for US Immigration Law. Why is this being treated as insignificant?

And as has already been said in this thread, if you don't like the law, change the law, but that's no excuse to break it.

Everyone seems to have a story about some innocuous illegal immigrant they know or are acquainted with. Nobody is saying that ALL illegal immigrants are harmful or out to take advantage of the system. The problem is, there are a vast number that are here precisely for that reason, and aren't the warm cuddlybears they're made out to be.

Consider this also:

A person who remains in this country against the law is ALREADY demonstrating a lack of respect for US Immigration Law. Why is this being treated as insignificant?

And as has already been said in this thread, if you don't like the law, change the law, but that's no excuse to break it.

So...

If they're stuck in Mexico, how exactly are they supposed to change the laws in the US?

Ah well. I like excercising my Freedom of Speech!:p

Ponderable #5:

If the United States is the Supposed world power, then why is our military suffering such "heavy" losses?

(Okay, now I'm going to sound like a complete jerk, and I'm sorry for those that this might insult or hurt...but...the losses of the United States Army isn't that bad. Actually, it was pretty much a given. At least it wasn't like the high amounts in Vietnam, Korea, and WW I & II.)Well, as you alluded to, we're not really suffering that high of losses, comparatively speaking. But in general terms, a good number of people have died over there. More than the number of people in my hometown. The reason why is that the civilians of Iraq view us as occupiers. I know if there were a full-scale invasion of the US, I'd do whatever it takes to get the invaders out of my country. We can't win their hearts and minds and that's why.

Ponderable #6:

Since when does gay marriage relate to a soldier's funeral? Have you seen sometimes on the news how people actually hold a protest at a soldier's funeral? Give the man/woman some peace for God's sake! They are already dead! Wait, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH GAY MARRIAGE?!
I've never heard about this, so I don't know it's validity. But, assuming that people do do this, it has nothing to do with gay marriage. And I honestly don't know why they would choose a soldier's funeral. It may have something to do with "don't ask, don't tell", but that'd be a bit of a stretch. Just a group of people choosing a very inappropriate time to make a statement is my guess.

So? Haha. I'm not the government. I hold very dear to this old quote: "I don't like what he says, but I'll fight to the death for his right to say it." I mean, you CAN say a lot of things, but there a lot of things you probably shouldn't say. You can say what you want, but just be aware you're going to piss people off by saying you hate the right to free press.

The Ammendments do indeed apply to the Government specifically, but don't you think the spirit of it should apply to all?

After all, the Government of the USA IS the people.

Oops. Forgot to explain about the quotes around heavy. When I quoted heavy, I meant to imply that it was somewhat sarcastic.

3,000 is nothing compared to Vietnam, Korea, Civil War, WWI, and WWII.

Which actually does make me turn away from the News Channels and more towards the papers...dunno why though...I just don't trust much of it.

You can thank the UAW (United Auto Workers) for that. Not only do the auto workers get paid VERY well for their services, but the benefits and vacation packages are hard to beat. Ironically, they don't know much about cars. When I was a student learning auto repair, we took a field trip to the GM assembly plant in Baltimore. We occasionally asked questions of the workers about what they do, and they had no clue. They just stand there and zip on bolts or zap power tools. For that, they get paid more than many mechanics who have to come back later after the same car has thousands of miles on it and diagnose/service/repair it.
Gee...a person whose job is to do one specific thing doesn't know how the rest of it works, yet someone who is trained to work on the entire system does. Who could imagine that?

The worst part about it, is that the typical UAW member acts like they're ENTITLED to all that. Not that they should EARN it. They want to know what's in it for them. (Like in most industries in the USA)
Oh, how dreadful! The nasty union thinks its workers are entitled to the average wage! That's just appalling! They should be working for the same wage as what an Indian peasant gets paid.

In other countries, the mentality is different. Take Japan for example. A typical Japanese auto worker is much more loyal to his employer and likely to go the extra mile because he takes pride in his work, and owns his responsibility. It would be a matter of embarassment if he isn't doing his best to produce the best work possible.
Yes, we should all be like the Japanese workforce, who are so embarrassed into subverting their owb individual needs in place of the company's they have even invented a word to describe (the fairly common) death through over-work, Karoshi. It's an officially recognised occupational hazard due to Japanese production management methods. Bet you'd just love to work for one of them, huh NB?

Good points, good points!
BTW, no harsh flaming. Like I said, it's just my opinion. So the remark about being an idiot was uncalled for. Thank you.

I personally like watching CNN instead of the local news channels.

Ponderable #4:

This is venturing off that topic for a bit and onto a local problem. Okay, where I live there is this supposed "Seven-Toed Frog" that is being protected by the Tri-County area. People have speculated that it's the last remaining frog, and as such..they won't expand. OMG! It's ONE FROG! I know, you could be possibly thinking, "Well, if you were the last of your species, would you like to be killed?" Go Hug a Tree damn hippy! (Kidding. I'm in love with a hippy myself.) They just won't expand the area because of this one particular frog. And trust me, this area needs expansion! They have dedicated nearly 85% of the land to trees. Actually, It's closer to 90%. There isn't even all that much here anyways!

Well, there's your fourth.
In other words, you prefer to see a world such as this:
http://img.timeinc.net/time/cartoons/20060812/7.jpg

So...

If they're stuck in Mexico, how exactly are they supposed to change the laws in the US?

Simple. There are plenty of people here who sympathize and ARE in a position to effect change.

Wouldn't you agree that if there are NOT enough Americans who support such change to the law, then the law ought NOT to be changed in the first place and should then be enforced as is?

Simple. There are plenty of people here who sympathize and ARE in a position to effect change.

Wouldn't you agree that if there are NOT enough Americans who support such change to the law, then the law ought NOT to be changed in the first place and should then be enforced as is?

I'll simply respond with another question. Does the consent of a majority make the government's actions moral?

A person who remains in this country against the law is ALREADY demonstrating a lack of respect for US Immigration Law. Why is this being treated as insignificant?Hm. I think this is a question that only the market can answer. So market, why do you tolerate this? "I like the cheap labor!" Fair enough, then.

And as has already been said in this thread, if you don't like the law, change the law, but that's no excuse to break it.
And as has also been said in this thread, how do they change another country's laws?

The Ammendments do indeed apply to the Government specifically, but don't you think the spirit of it should apply to all?

After all, the Government of the USA IS the people.
Yes… I do. That's why I said, "I hold dear to this old quote:" I mean, I'm not going to take it well as a member of the press when someone says "I hate the freedom of the press". I'm a human being and a journalist, for God's sake.

Good to see you, Demented Hamsters, there wasn't enough distortion in this thread but you're here to help!

Gee...a person whose job is to do one specific thing doesn't know how the rest of it works, yet someone who is trained to work on the entire system does. Who could imagine that?

Oh, how dreadful! The nasty union thinks its workers are entitled to the average wage! That's just appalling! They should be working for the same wage as what an Indian peasant gets paid.

Did you even READ this thread or are you just trolling? There was mention earlier of someone who is an auto worker getting paid $28/hr. (Not including the benefits) And as pedantic as it is to have to say this, I never said they should get paid poorly, only that they're overpaid for what they do and what they know.


Yes, we should all be like the Japanese workforce, who are so embarrassed into subverting their owb individual needs in place of the company's they have even invented a word to describe (the fairly common) death through over-work, Karoshi. It's an officially recognised occupational hazard due to Japanese production management methods. Bet you'd just love to work for one of them, huh NB?

Wow... you take pride in work and make it sound like a bad thing. That speaks volumes. Time to get pedantic again... Of COURSE it's bad to overwork your people, but from what you said yourself, the problem has been recognized and addressed. Why is that a bad thing?

Keep the debating coming! (Yes, I love debating.)

Ponderable #6:

Part of the process in which to become a U.S. citizen is to assume loyalty to the U.S. government, correct?

Then why do those that were involved in that massive protest wave the flag of Mexico? How disrespectful can they be?

I'll simply respond with another question. Does the consent of a majority make the government's actions moral?

Nope. But then, the morality of immigration laws is another issue. For now, like it or not, it is illegal to enter the country under certain circumstances. If it needs changing, then let's change it, but until then ignoring existing laws isn't the way to go.

Yes… I do. That's why I said, "I hold dear to this old quote:" I mean, I'm not going to take it well as a member of the press when someone says "I hate the freedom of the press". I'm a human being and a journalist, for God's sake.

To use an out of proportion example, I have the right to walk into a biker's bar and declare at the top of my lungs, "You're all a bunch of fags."

However, if someone cautions me against doing so, are they denying my Freedom of Speech?

Keep the debating coming! (Yes, I love debating.)

Ponderable #6:

Part of the process in which to become a U.S. citizen is to assume loyalty to the U.S. government, correct?

Then why do those that were involved in that massive protest wave the flag of Mexico? How disrespectful can they be?

yeah that was definitely a PR error on their part. If they want to be seen as true immigrants to the US, they need to demonstrate that this is their first loyalty.

My father was an immigrant to this country. He did it legally. He never became a citizen, choosing instead to return to his home country when he retired, but that man flew an American flag at his house. He loves this country because he knows how great it is, and played by the rules.

And no, he wasn't rich nor did he have any connections. He came to this country 40 years ago with money he made from selling his motorcycle.

<snip?
I'm all for the All-American dream, but what exactly is All-American anymore? Most of our electronics and vehicles are being built by foreign companies in second-third world countries. This is puting our revenue into their society. Which, in the long run, is taking money from the United States. One of the only companies that I know is mostly All-American is the Ford Motor Company in Detroit. What the hell happened? Now the American people are losing their jobs to cheap labour forces on foreign lands...and there is nothing they can do about it!
<snip>

i found the bolded part funny

did you know that ford owns jaguar, mazda, volvo, landrover and aston martin?

how are they "all american"?

i found the bolded part funny

did you know that ford owns jaguar, mazda, volvo, landrover and aston martin?

how are they "all american"?

Just because they own those other companies doesn't mean they are not All-American, it just means that they own foreign companies.

What I was talking about was the FORD division.

Keep the debating coming! (Yes, I love debating.)

Ponderable #6:

Part of the process in which to become a U.S. citizen is to assume loyalty to the U.S. government, correct?

Then why do those that were involved in that massive protest wave the flag of Mexico? How disrespectful can they be?
I don't think you assume loyalty to the U.S. government, it's too short-lasting. I think you take the pledge of allegience and promise to protect the Constitution (the latter might be if you join the military, I'm not too up on oaths). And part of free speach is that you can wave whatever flag you want. Again, on St. Patrick's day, I don't think that people say, "How rude of them to fly the Irish flag!" or on Casimir Pulaski day, "How rude of them to fly the Polish flag!". Although 100 years ago, they probably would. Latinos are just the current largest immigrant group. It'll change. Eventually immigration from latin countries will die down, latinos will assimilate into and contribute to that great beautiful clusterfuck known as American culture, and 100 years from now, people will think it's weird that people cared so much about latinos coming into America. That's what happened to the Germans, the Irish, the Polish, and the Italians. It's inevitable. In fifty years, the grandkids of the current immigrants won't speak spanish, and America will be all in a fuss over some other ethnic group "taking our jobs".

Again, on St. Patrick's day, I don't think that people say, "How rude of them to fly the Irish flag!" or on Casimir Pulaski day, "How rude of them to fly the Polish flag!". Although 100 years ago, they probably would.

You make a good point.

I would say though, that flying those flags on those respective holidays is innocuous because they're typically Americans who are demonstrating pride in their heritage. In the case of the demonstrations by illegal immigrants, the onus is on them to demonstrate their loyalty to the USA FIRST. Remember, the purpose for these demonstrations was to bring about change, and to do that, they need to gather support. Showing a love of this country would be a good way to do that.

And That new ethnic group shall be!

-spins a wheel-

Umm...MARTIANS!!!

You make a good point.

I would say though, that flying those flags on those respective holidays is innocuous because they're typically Americans who are demonstrating pride in their heritage. In the case of the demonstrations by illegal immigrants, the onus is on them to demonstrate their loyalty to the USA FIRST. Remember, the purpose for these demonstrations was to bring about change, and to do that, they need to gather support. Showing a love of this country would be a good way to do that.

Exactly.
From my point of view, what I thought was...

"Shit. Those people want to become Americans? Or do they want America to become Mexico?"

And That new ethnic group shall be!

-spins a wheel-

Umm...MARTIANS!!!
I'm putting safe money on either Middle Easterners or East Indians.

I honestly don't understand the sentiment that says it's bad to question the goverment.

The same people that say you shouldnt question the current administration are the same people that questioned Clinton.

I'm putting safe money on either Middle Easterners or East Indians.

Close enough. Kidding! I like the Middle Easterns. Even after that whole Sep. 11 Conflict, I never stopped loving them!

Exactly.
From my point of view, what I thought was...

"Shit. Those people want to become Americans? Or do they want America to become Mexico?"Well, we did take the good part of Mexico away from Mexicans. I grew up in California, and I remember thinking about how much better off Mexico might have been if not for the Mexican-American War.

Good to see you, Demented Hamsters, there wasn't enough distortion in this thread but you're here to help!

Did you even READ this thread or are you just trolling? There was mention earlier of someone who is an auto worker getting paid $28/hr. (Not including the benefits) And as pedantic as it is to have to say this, I never said they should get paid poorly, only that they're overpaid for what they do and what they know.
And if you bothered to read what I wrote, I said average wage.
fyi, for Blue collar it's ~$20 average, and that's including aprentices, which means it'd be well above that for anyone with experience.
So $28, unless it's starting wage for apprentices, isn't as bad as you seem to think it is. Slightly above the national average, but not overly.
Why do you think they should get paid less than that?
(In case anyone's interested, it's ~$30 for White collar)
I took these from the US dept of Statistics, incidently.

Wow... you take pride in work and make it sound like a bad thing. That speaks volumes. Time to get pedantic again... Of COURSE it's bad to overwork your people, but from what you said yourself, the problem has been recognized and addressed. Why is that a bad thing?
Yes, strangely enough I do think it's a bad thing to be forced through fear and embarassment into thinking that one's entire purpose in life is to work long unpaid overtime to perfect the companys product. But you view that as 'taking pride in ones work'. Diff'rent strokes I guess.
I'd prefer to have a life outside work myself, and to live beyond 50.

Finally recognising and labelling a condition is not the same as addressing it.
The fact that you can't understand that speaks volumes about your concepts of work and about treating workers with respect.

Yet the Mexican-American war was settled more in favor of the Mexicans at the time. For the current president of the United States had imposed paying the Mexicans for the land, and had promised to protect the Mexican people that lived in that territory. Or so I was taught.

Yet the Mexican-American war was settled more in favor of the Mexicans at the time. For the current president of the United States had imposed paying the Mexicans for the land, and had promised to protect the Mexican people that lived in that territory. Or so I was taught.

We attacked them and stole their land. How's that in their favor?

Yet the Mexican-American war was settled more in favor of the Mexicans at the time. For the current president of the United States had imposed paying the Mexicans for the land, and had promised to protect the Mexican people that lived in that territory. Or so I was taught.
I know we did the former, but I don't know about the latter. I think we just let them wing it back then, it's not like there were IDs in those days.

We attacked them and stole their land. How's that in their favor?
They attacked us, and we compensated them for their land. $627.5 mil in today's dollars, according to Wikipedia.

All I know was that Davy Crocket died.:rolleyes:

They attacked us, and we compensated them for their land. $627.5 mil in today's dollars, according to Wikipedia.

Gah. Hasty answer. Sorry, haven't been in History class since summer started.

Okay. So, we stole their territory, then they attacked us, then we stole their territory. That better?

And if you bothered to read what I wrote, I said average wage.
fyi, for Blue collar it's ~$20 average, and that's including aprentices, which means it'd be well above that for anyone with experience.
So $28, unless it's starting wage for apprentices, isn't as bad as you seem to think it is. Slightly above the national average, but not overly.
Why do you think they should get paid less than that?
(In case anyone's interested, it's ~$30 for White collar)
I took these from the US dept of Statistics, incidently.


Awesome, you make my point for me. (And yes, I did read what you wrote. Don't assume I didn't just because I don't agree with you.)

If $20/hr is average for blue-collar workers, then we can reasonably apply that number to people with an average level of experience, skill and training. Keeping in mind that blue collar work includes skilled labor as well as unskilled, then that $20 falls, most likely, into the unskilled labor range. (Examples of unskilled labor might include janitorial, basic hauling/lifting, simple landcape work) That means we can expect the average wages for skilled labor to be closer to that $30 range. (Examples of skilled labor would include carpenters, mechanics, machinists, bricklayers, electricians)

White Collar work is in another league. That typically includes work that required substantial formal education, like a degree. This would include Software developers, managerial, logistical, education.

Like it or not, working on an auto assembly line is unskilled labor. They know the basics of how to operate the tools they work with, and little more. (One of the workers we spoke to on that field trip was using a multi-bit impact wrench to install lugnuts. When asked what the torque setting was on that tool, he simply shrugged and said "I dunno."

$28 an hour is too high for an average laborer at an unskilled job, especially when you consider the quality of the associated benefits.


Yes, strangely enough I do think it's a bad thing to be forced through fear and embarassment into thinking that one's entire purpose in life is to work long unpaid overtime to perfect the companys product. But you view that as 'taking pride in ones work'. Diff'rent strokes I guess.
I'd prefer to have a life outside work myself, and to live beyond 50.


So when I say "taking pride on one's work" you evoke all of those issues and then try to portray me as endorsing those things as well? Tell me this isn't the best you can do.

Japanese culture isn't about forcing people to work a certain way through fear and embarassment. You think that if the average Japanese worker were "rescued" from the assembly plant in Osaka and brought to Detroit, that he'd be grateful and happy to be there? No. Most likely he would be appalled at the self-centeredness of the workers and bewildered at how they can be so richly rewarded for such minimal effort.

They are not forced to be this way. They're not intimidated or threatened. This is the culture of their nation. Yuo don't have to like it, but it is so. Do I think we should make our peope work long hours for low pay? No, I never said any such thing (So stop trying to put those words in my mouth, you're not fooling anybody.) What I said was that the focus on teh American worker is me me me me me and the focus of a Japanese worker is for the good of the Company.


Finally recognising and labelling a condition is not the same as addressing it.
The fact that you can't understand that speaks volumes about your concepts of work and about treating workers with respect.

They are the first steps of addressing it. That's where it begins. Perhaps things aren't changing fast enough for your taste?

By the way,
Don't pretend to know how I treat workers. I have worked in management and was recognized by the people who reported to me as fair and compassionate. I expected high quality from them and in return I made sure they weren't exploited by those above me. (Yes, they tried.)

Yay! A debate about a debate! Oh fun!

It is quite simple – if you have employees that cost way above market rate, you try not to hire them and, if possible, relocate to where you will not have to pay prohibitive costs.

The UAW adds at least $3,000 to the cost of a car (I'm not sure of the exact number and am having trouble finding it, but it was between 3 and 4k). Not only do they get approximately $26/hr but they get just as much in benefits – throw on pensions and legacy costs, and you have an obscene cost of doing business (Delphi estimates that wages, benefits, and legacy costs came to a total compensation of $76 hour – anyone care to take a guess why they went into chapter 11?).

This is why American automobile companies have trouble competing – and they can’t just close down, because if they do that the contract stipulates that they still have to pay most of the wages and benefits to those they laid off. The only way they can get rid of excess labor is to offer incredibly generous incentives to take early retirement.

Outside of UAW shops, manufacturing (even in other automotive factories) is booming. You hear a lot of press about how off-shoring is destroying American manufacturing, but this simply isn’t the case. Manufacturing has fallen as a percentage of the working population, but this is to be expected in a modern economy. Not many people complain these days about how the economy has shifted away from most people being employed in agriculture do they?

The US is the largest exporter of goods and services in the world. I bet most of you didn’t know that. The reason why we have such a huge trade deficit is because we import from everyone, not that we don’t export anything. Obviously we have fallen in terms of share of world manufacturing since 1950 – but that should be obvious as most countries were either totally devastated by war (surprisingly, dropping a few thousand bombs on your factories can lower your production) or too undeveloped to have much capacity to at all. American companies setting up factories or call centers in another country actually helps the American economy – this is because is greatly reduces the cost of goods the consumer pays for these products, and most of the profits from this factory get repatriated to the US (which is why people claim the US ‘exploits’ other people because they fail to see that that factory has brought in a lot of economic benefit to the local economy as well as bringing some to the owners – they complain because they aren't getting 110% of someone else’s money). These investments overseas are one of the reasons why the US has a current accounts deficit as well – despite the huge trade deficit, more money is coming into the US than is leaving it.

Anyway, the short of it is that US manufacturing is still very strong and growing; despite a couple obvious corporations such as General Motors and Delphi who are crippled by unions. Besides, the effect of a couple thousand workers loosing their overpaid manufacturing jobs is far outweighed by the hundreds of millions who get cheaper goods.

Too many Americans have a sense on entitlement – they demand to get paid a lot of money yet never ask if they are actually worth that level of compensation. This is embodied by the ‘living wage’ movement – if you only provide a company with $10/hr worth of benefit, the company should not be forced to pay you $20/hr. That you need to make $20/hr to support the standard of living you want is not that company’s problem – either adjust your standard of living, or get another job.

There was a point in my life where I had to work 80 hours a week and it was hell, but I did it because I had bills to pay. That someone is unproductive and only wants to work 40 hours a week yet cannot pay their bills is not my problem. Unemployment is very low in the US; there is no excuse for not having a job or two. We have already burdened businesses with excessive regulation and compliance costs; the day we force companies to hire unproductive people and pay those people far more than they are worth, is the day our economy begins to fail.

Think of it this way – if illegals can come here and afford to both live and even send a lot of money home, why can’t legal residents do the same? A lot of companies rely on illegal immigrants because they cannot find productive people to do the work that needs to be done – day laborers can get up to $16/hr in northern Virginia because they tend to work their asses off and even in the middle of nowhere Delaware they can still make around $9/hr. They do not live a life of luxury, but they have a fairly decent standard of living.

Boo economic nationalism, booooooo!

They hire abroad because they can get the same quality work in India or China as they can in the US for reduced cost. It's honestly no different than a Californian company deciding to hire workers in Texas rather than in-state; the cost of labor in Texas is a good deal cheaper than in California, and the talent available is generally the same so they decide to save money by hiring workers in the cheaper location.

Surely there's nothing wrong with that, even though the cost of labor in Texas can easily be 50-100% less than in California? Where's the outcry about wages in California being destroyed, or jobs being stolen by unfair and artificially depressed labor costs? People forget that interstate commerce can be as equally diverse as international commerce and can have as many price differentials between regions as between countries.

In a highly competitive environment, it makes no sense to hire a worker at $20/hr when you could hire the same worker in India for $5/hr or even less; it's not like you're going to suddenly attract additional customers because you make your products in the US, and even if you do they're probably not numerous enough to compensate for 400% higher labor costs that have to be passed through.

Another reason is that consumers tend to buy the best value. I mean, why should I pay 30% more and sacrifice some of my purchasing power for other things I might want just to support American workers? It doesn't matter anymore in the world economy where those goods are produced because jobs are created regardless; the only change is in the composition of the labor force and in many cases that change is for the better. The US economy is much stronger and stable today than it was at any time in its history, and our trade relationships and interconnection with the world economy are directly responsible for that.

Economic nationalism is always a path to disaster.

Ooo! Looks like it's time for another one.

Ponderable #7:

What's the deal with the people and their trees? Have you noticed that the forests have actually expaned much larger than they were twenty years ago?

*Yeah. This one was weak...I'll find a new one later.*

Ooo! Looks like it's time for another one.

Ponderable #7:

What's the deal with the people and their trees? Have you noticed that the forests have actually expaned much larger than they were twenty years ago?

*Yeah. This one was weak...I'll find a new one later.*

This is a point I love to bring up, actually. American and Canadian timber companies have discicovered that conserving resources allows them to exist long into the future.

Yep. Which is better for all!

(My original point was people complaining so much that WE are tearing too many trees down. Well, it's not US, it's people in SA and in Africa.)