NationStates Jolt Archive

Towards an initial screening device that uses the Israeli interview techniques.
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115551793796934752-2hgveyRtDDtssKozVPmg6RAAa_w_20070813.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

If you come up hot on this machine, you're relegated to further questioning by actual human beings.

Apparently has an 85% success rate and an 8% false positive rate.

False positives can evidently be sussed out by the humans who form the second tier of the system.

It also apparently has the side effect of catching drug smugglers, stressed-out office workers, and, I would bet, people who have serious issues with authority figures.

Towards an initial screening device that uses the Israeli interview techniques.

You mean shoot first ask later?

Hostile intent? Put me in one of those things and I will have hostile intent.

You mean shoot first ask later?

Hostile intent? Put me in one of those things and I will have hostile intent.

You're being obsequious again.

Israeli interview techniques are extremely effective. It's their primary method of screening. Although many Arabs have tried over the years, they've only been able to hijack one El Al airliner, in 1968.

The screening is extremely effective.

If you are unwilling to answer the questions, or present what they view as a threat (and don't want to answer questions), you're free to fly on another airliner.

Flying is not a right, it's a privilege.

Do Israelis put every air passenger through those machines?

Do Israelis put every air passenger through those machines?
They already put you through the equivalent, except that it's humans asking the questions, and your reactions are videotaped and reviewed.

If you arouse suspicions, you get questioned by several other agents. If they don't like your answers, you don't get on the plane.

No El Al hijackings since 1968. Ever.

They have very low tolerance for humor. :(

They already put you through the equivalent, except that it's humans asking the questions, and your reactions are videotaped and reviewed.

If you arouse suspicions, you get questioned by several other agents. If they don't like your answers, you don't get on the plane.

No El Al hijackings since 1968. Ever.
It must take six hours for everyone to get onto a plane.

It must take six hours for everyone to get onto a plane.
The screening averages about 15 minutes per passenger, longer if you're someone they are suspicious about.

The machine will make the initial screening pretty quick, and less subject to personal whim.

Flying is not a right, it's a privilege.

Wrong. If they want to sell me a ticket and I want to pay for one then its a right. If they want to test me before I pay, then fair enough

Wrong. If they want to sell me a ticket and I want to pay for one then its a right. If they want to test me before I pay, then fair enough
You get your money back if they dump you off the flight, just as if you were bumped because it was overcrowded.

Not a "right" listed in the US Constitution. I don't see anything in there about tickets, or airliners, or airline security.

You get your money back if they dump you off the flight, just as if you were bumped because it was overcrowded.

Not a "right" listed in the US Constitution. I don't see anything in there about tickets, or airliners, or airline security.

I'm not American, so I don't know what the constitution says.

And by that rationale, the constitution doesn't say breathing is a right, so is that a privelege too?

Towards an initial screening device that uses the Israeli interview techniques.
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115551793796934752-2hgveyRtDDtssKozVPmg6RAAa_w_20070813.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

If you come up hot on this machine, you're relegated to further questioning by actual human beings.

Apparently has an 85% success rate and an 8% false positive rate.

False positives can evidently be sussed out by the humans who form the second tier of the system.

It also apparently has the side effect of catching drug smugglers, stressed-out office workers, and, I would bet, people who have serious issues with authority figures.
Can you imagine how long security will take, once this is in operation? I'd prefer to see it implemented along with a frequent flier program, where those of us who choose to do so, can be pre-screened and have some credentials that allow us to bypass security.

The screening averages about 15 minutes per passenger, longer if you're someone they are suspicious about.

The machine will make the initial screening pretty quick, and less subject to personal whim.
Fifteen minutes? That's ridiculous. It would never work at Atlanta, where the normal screenings cause backups averaging 45 minutes.

Then there's the plan to get a passenger manifest from every domestic flight at push -45 minutes. Goodbye to standby passengers.

Can you imagine how long security will take, once this is in operation? I'd prefer to see it implemented along with a frequent flier program, where those of us who choose to do so, can be pre-screened and have some credentials that allow us to bypass security.
That's probably a good idea, with a renewal screening every six months or so.

That's probably a good idea, with a renewal screening every six months or so.
Too frequent. My SCI clearance is good for five years, as is my CCW. I think a yearly update would be sufficient.

Too frequent. My SCI clearance is good for five years, as is my CCW. I think a yearly update would be sufficient.
That's another thing.

If you have an active security clearance, you should be able to go through a much lighter check at the airport.

That's another thing.

If you have an active security clearance, you should be able to go through a much lighter check at the airport.
Good point. The government has already entrusted us with information that could cause either 'grave' or 'extremely grave' damage to the security of the country. Surely, we're not going to bomb airliners.

Good point. The government has already entrusted us with information that could cause either 'grave' or 'extremely grave' damage to the security of the country. Surely, we're not going to bomb airliners.
That, and with your SCI, they know all about your money, friends, etc.

Heh, probably the reason their tourist industry relies entirely on American christian fundamentalists, and business travel is limited too.

It's their choice if they want to treat visitors like shit, but it just serves to reinforce their isolation from the rest of the world. It ranks just above North Korea in the list of countries I would ever visit.

Good point. The government has already entrusted us with information that could cause either 'grave' or 'extremely grave' damage to the security of the country. Surely, we're not going to bomb airliners.
oh like the government would be that sensible

my sister in laws boyfriend is retired from sandia labs. he was a "big thinker" there, entrusted with the nations nuclear secrets.

he cant buy a gun at walmart because his name came up as being on a government list. the system couldnt tell that the list he was on was "guys who can know anything" so they denied him a gun, a .22 rifle that he wanted to shoot varmints.

after he straightened THAT out, they denied him a gun because he didnt have anything but a PObox address. no real mail address out here where we live. no address--no gun.

luckily he already had an arsenal in the concrete bunker he has built into his house or he would be quite grumpy over the whole thing.

Heh, probably the reason their tourist industry relies entirely on American christian fundamentalists, and business travel is limited too.

It's their choice if they want to treat visitors like shit, but it just serves to reinforce their isolation from the rest of the world. It ranks just above North Korea in the list of countries I would ever visit.
1. Christian fundamentalists by and large are poor, or lower middle class. Hence, they'd rather take the bus.

2. All they're doing is asking you a few questions in a little tube. If you think that's treating you like shit, then you must be royalty.

I think it's much better than having your bags ransacked.

That, and with your SCI, they know all about your money, friends, etc.
It's always a good joke to inflict the DIS, or their contractors now, on a friend. They wanted someone that I hadn't listed before, so I put one down. The agent went to the door, introduced himself and started asking questions -- the personal kind. Within ten minutes of his departure, my friend's wife called my wife and wondered what sort of business I was in.

Wrong. If they want to sell me a ticket and I want to pay for one then its a right. If they want to test me before I pay, then fair enough

Look at the terms and conditions when you buy the ticket. I gaurentee you it says something about their right to refuse you entry on to the plane for security reasons.

Your right to use that ticket is bound by the agreeement that existed when you bought it, which includes this.

I think it's much better than having your bags ransacked.

What makes you think they'll stop going through peoples luggage?

You know, at the rate they are going. The airlines are going to be relegated to flying cargo services because all these stupid-assed restrictions and regulations the government is imposing on passengers. Not to mention the lowering levels of service and the decrease in seat pitch.

I stopped flying when they started telling everyone here that you could no longer lock your luggage. I am not about to leave my personal property easily opened so some government appointed goon can paw through my clothes. If I see a need to travel overseas, i will take a damned ship. It may take longer and cost more, but at the least I won't be sardined in with 200 other people who smell as bad as I do. And have to worry about whether or not some ass decided he/she needed my favorite shirt more than I do.

And by that rationale, the constitution doesn't say breathing is a right, so is that a privelege too?

It says living is a right. And breathing is required for living...thus no, not a privledge.

What makes you think they'll stop going through peoples luggage?

You know, at the rate they are going. The airlines are going to be relegated to flying cargo services because all these stupid-assed restrictions and regulations the government is imposing on passengers. Not to mention the lowering levels of service and the decrease in seat pitch.

I stopped flying when they started telling everyone here that you could no longer lock your luggage. I am not about to leave my personal property easily opened so some government appointed goon can paw through my clothes. If I see a need to travel overseas, i will take a damned ship. It may take longer and cost more, but at the least I won't be sardined in with 200 other people who smell as bad as I do. And have to worry about whether or not some ass decided he/she needed my favorite shirt more than I do.

oops sucks to be you

they do a similar sort of baggage search on passenger/cruise ships too. you cant get away from it.

2. All they're doing is asking you a few questions in a little tube. If you think that's treating you like shit, then you must be royalty.

I think it's much better than having your bags ransacked.
Hardly. Security at Turkish airports is pretty intense, multiple stages of x-rays, metal detectors, everyone gets patted down by armed security guards at 2-3 different posts. But guess what? It's all done in silence. Strange, what is to all intents and purposes a slowly reforming dictatorship that survived local states of civil war, fighting terrorists of its own, does not intrude into people's minds.

You will find that Israel is basically unique in that respect.

No-one is entitled to know the personal details of my life - if they feel they are, they're not getting my business. Royalty? Why not? I am indeed above that.

oops sucks to be you

they do a similar sort of baggage search on passenger/cruise ships too. you cant get away from it.

Not really, that just means I'll keep to the U.S., Canada and Mexico. Not fond of travel anyways.


No-one is entitled to know the personal details of my life - if they feel they are, they're not getting my business. Royalty? Why not? I am indeed above that.

Wow, this is a first for me. I agree with TC on something!:p :fluffle:

Hardly. Security at Turkish airports is pretty intense, multiple stages of x-rays, metal detectors, everyone gets patted down by armed security guards at 2-3 different posts. But guess what? It's all done in silence. Strange, what is to all intents and purposes a slowly reforming dictatorship that survived local states of civil war, fighting terrorists of its own, does not intrude into people's minds.

You will find that Israel is basically unique in that respect.

No-one is entitled to know the personal details of my life - if they feel they are, they're not getting my business. Royalty? Why not? I am indeed above that.
I'd rather go through the Israeli method of answering a bunch of questions and having my pulse checked. It actually seems much more humane than what you described.

Wrong. If they want to sell me a ticket and I want to pay for one then its a right. If they want to test me before I pay, then fair enough
Wrong. You have no clue whatsoever about rights ;)

If they really want to use this to find terrorists, they're going to have to test every single person that gets on a plane. According to the TSA, two million people fly everyday. That's 730 million people a year. Let's assume that 10 of them are terrorists. With a 4% false-positive rate and a 10% false-negative rate, that means 29 million innocent travelers are going to be detained as suspects, and one out of the 10 terrorists will still make it through security to conduct his or her dirty work. Is it worth it, or would the money be better spent preventing terrorism through intelligence work?

If they really want to use this to find terrorists, they're going to have to test every single person that gets on a plane. According to the TSA, two million people fly everyday. That's 730 million people a year. Let's assume that 10 of them are terrorists. With a 4% false-positive rate and a 10% false-negative rate, that means 29 million innocent travelers are going to be detained as suspects, and one out of the 10 terrorists will still make it through security to conduct his or her dirty work. Is it worth it, or would the money be better spent preventing terrorism through intelligence work?

The machine uses the same techniques that the Israelis use with humans to detect terrorists.

You can't argue with only one plane hijacked and that was in 1968.

Arabs have been constantly trying.

Just because the machine identifies you does not mean you are arrested or detained. All it means is that the limited human resources can be concentrated on those the machine identifies. You get asked more questions. It's entirely possible that your false positive is easily resolved by a human.

It's not the only thing you want to do - but, in a world where we have people against:

warrantless searches
detention without charge
(both of which are available in Britain but not the US)
watching Muslims (oh, how fucking evil)

it's kind of hard to get "intelligence".

I love it when people say "use more intelligence" and then when you actually spy on someone, or detain them for questioning, everyone wants to say, "that's not fair, you have to wait until they actually blow something up".

Which one then? Wait until they blow it up? Or watch them and infiltrate them and spy on them without their knowledge?

Let me know when you make up your mind.

The screening averages about 15 minutes per passenger, longer if you're someone they are suspicious about.
It definately doesn't take 15 minutes. Someone comes up to you and asks you a few questions while you're already waiting in line to check in, so there isn't that much extra time wasted. What takes more time is when they open up all your suitcases - but again, it isn't *that* bad. The system works ok.

It definately doesn't take 15 minutes. Someone comes up to you and asks you a few questions while you're already waiting in line to check in, so there isn't that much extra time wasted. What takes more time is when they open up all your suitcases - but again, it isn't *that* bad. The system works ok.

Oh, but Kazus doesn't want someone asking questions. That would be the most horrible infringement of personal rights possible. After all, Kazus isn't a terrorist, and everyone should already know that without asking or looking.

Oh, but Kazus doesn't want someone asking questions. That would be the most horrible infringement of personal rights possible. After all, Kazus isn't a terrorist, and everyone should already know that without asking or looking.Tactical and Kazus wouldn't be the least bothered if they actually knew what it was like. I mean, nothing could be more simple that telling an official where you're going, why, and a few other random general questions. It really isn't in any way tacky or prying - just like a short conversation you'd have with somebody you just met. I dunno - but if some of you find that more offensive and prying than being felt up and ex-rayed, well, all I can say is that you probably don't make friends easily.