NationStates Jolt Archive

Indonesians collecting money to buy weapons for Hezbollah.
Aug 11, 2006, 7:53 GMT

Muhammadiyah, which has about 30 million members and has been lauded by the US government for promoting moderate Islam, is seeking cash for both Hezbollah and Hamas, The Jakarta Post said.

Several hardline Indonesian Islamic groups have been signing up fighters and suicide bombers to travel to the Middle East to wage holy war, or jihad, against Israel with at least two claiming they had already dispatched dozens of men.

But Din Syamsuddin, Muhammadiyah's chairman, said he saw no need to send men to the Mideast. 'I think we should donate more money to help Hezbollah and Hamas fighters buy weapons,' he was quoted as saying. 'If needed, I will personally hand over the weapons to them.'

He added that Muhammadiyah, which is Indonesia's second-largest Muslim organization, had already donated money to the Palestinian embassy in Jakarta to buy weapons for Hamas.
...
Although the country's government is secular, many citizens are enraged by Israel's ongoing military operations in Lebanon and the perceived US support of them.

Sources Yahoo/Deutsche-Presse-Agentur/The-Jakarta-Post/OcceanNEWS@2006
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/asiapacific/article_1189260.php/Indonesian_Muslim_group_collecting_money_to_buy_Hezbollah_weapons

my2cents: this is to support my previous statements indicating that Iranians/Syrians/Saudis/etc/etc/etc are helping David VS... Goliath.

Notice how they're all hardline Islamists. I guess it's a good thing that Muhammidayah is showing their true colors now.

Muhammidayah is showing their true colors now.Muhammidayah has never approved the US list of Terrorist Orgs..
The sovereign State of Indonesia has never approved the US list of Terrorist Orgs..

Only Israel and a hanfull of English speaking Countries.. are in Line with the US.. on Hezbollah being "terrorists".

Shouldn't they be spending that money on relief for the Lebanese or combatting problems in their own country? It seems like a huge waste of money for this organization to be collecting money to buy weapons when many people in the Islamic world can barely eat or afford clean water and education...

Alas, there's no stopping the willingness of people to waste their money to fund another cycle of death and destruction in the Middle East...this is just one of the many sides to it.

Alas, there's no stopping the willingness of (The US taxpayers) to waste their money to fund another cycle of death and destruction in the Middle East...indeed. there is 2 sides to the mirror.

Muhammidayah has never approved the US list of Terrorist Orgs..
The sovereign State of Indonesia has never approved the US list of Terrorist Orgs..

Only Israel and a hanfull of English speaking Countries

Like Holland? Or the Russian Defense Minister who stated Hezbollah should "stop resorting to any terrorist methods" ?

Like Holland? Or the Russian Defense Minister who stated Hezbollah should "stop resorting to any terrorist methods" ?Hezbollah is NOT on the Russian terrorist List..

once upon a time.. AQ was on the Russian(USSR) terror list.. and US citizens kept funding AQ.. because it was not on the US terror list.

Muhammidayah has never approved the US list of Terrorist Orgs..
The sovereign State of Indonesia has never approved the US list of Terrorist Orgs..

Only Israel and a hanfull of English speaking Countries.. are in Line with the US.. on Hezbollah being "terrorists".
Does it surprise you then that only the US and a handfull of English speaking Countries never succumed to fascism or communism?

Are you saying Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization?

Hezbollah is NOT on the Russian terrorist List..



Never said it was. Russia's terrorist list only contains groups that present a threat to russia. However, as I quoted, and you ignored, the Russian Defense Minister refered to Hezbollah's activities as "terrorist activities".

Argue that any way you want, but the defense minister of russia refered to Hezbollah's activities as terrorism.

indeed. there is 2 sides to the mirror.

That's true.

There are groups on all sides who do terrible things, and in many cases these groups all depend on each other for survival; after all, if the states involved make a lasting peace agreement they all lose a lot more than they would gain. Israel loses the no-strings-attached money, influence, economic strength and support it gets from the US, and the Arab states have to deal with a population turned away from Israel and towards their own leaders' faults and problems.

I think all sides are interested in the status quo, because they no longer can function without violence.

Are you saying Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization?I consider terrorism a crime.. and in my book its Innocent until proven guilty.
So I will consider Hezbollah terrorist.. ONLY if you prove it to me.
Untill then.. for me Hezbollah is not terrorist.

However, as I quoted, and you ignored, the Russian Defense Minister refered to Hezbollah's activities as "terrorist activities".

Argue that any way you want, but the defense minister of russia refered to Hezbollah's activities as terrorism.yes the Sinister-Minister may have said "I eat tamales"..
still.. it does not change the fact that for Russia.. and most (90%+) Countries of the world..Hezbollah is NOT a terrorist org.

See? Now that's the spirit of community at work.

still.. it does not change the fact that for Russia.. and most Contries of the world.. Hezbollah is NOT a terrorist org.

Gee, when the defense minister of a nation calls a group terrorists....that's a pretty good indication of how the government feels, eh?

I consider terrorism a crime.. and in my book its Innocent until proven guilty.
So I will consider Hezbollah terrorist.. ONLY if you prove it to me.
Untill then.. for me Hezbollah is not terrorist.

Would you consider launching rockets into villages for no other purpose than to kill innocent civilians terrorism?

If so...exactly how many news articles do you need to see that talk about Hezbollah shooting rockets into villages?

Would you consider launching rockets into villages for no other purpose than to kill innocent civilians terrorism?I consider mass-killing Civileans (specially women and chilldren) a genocide.. and NO I do not buy all that bullshit about "Collateral".

You shoot the weapons >your weapon kills Families > Its a crime. No excuses.

still Inocent until proven guilty.. so all I can say is.. I hope you burn in hell If you commited that crime.

The only way to prosecute is if you are unlucky enough.. and there is some incriminating video.

I consider mass-killing Civileans (specially women and chilldren) a genocide.. and NO I do not but all that bullshit about Collateral.

You shoot the weapons >your weapon kills Families > Its a crime. No excuses.

still Inocent until proven guilty.. so all I can say is.. I hope you burn in hell If you commited that crime.

The only way to prosecute is if you are unlucky enough.. and there is some incriminating video.

What proof do you have that Israel is killing civilians? In fact, what PROOF do you have that Israel is in Lebanon at ALL?

If you discount the NUMEROUS news reports that state that Hezbollah was, indeed, firing rockets into Israel before Israel attacked, then by logic you must discount all the news reports talking about Israel's actions.

If you discount the NUMEROUS news reports that state that Hezbollah was, indeed, firing rockets into Israel before Israel attacked, then by logic you must discount all the news reports talking about Israel's actions.Hezbollah is firing Rockets as we speak.. what is your point?

Israel bombed and killed Civilean first.. lots of Civileans (men, women and children)..
What did you expect Hezbollah to do?

Hezbollah is a murderous and reactionary terrorist organization. It and its fundamentalist allies do not represent and will never represent an effective solution to the brutality of imperialism and economic tyranny, and the people who support such movements are only wasting their efforts rooting for one despicable ideology over another.

Hezbollah is a () terrorist organization.you can repeat that a thousand times..

It does not change the fact that 90%+ of the World Countries say you are wrong.

Hezbollah is firing Rockets as we speak.. what is your point?

Israel bombed and killed Civilean first.. lots of Civileans (men, women and children)..
What did you expect Hezbollah to do?

They should have refused to respond in kind. One atrocity does not justify another.

They could have scored a major political victory with it, too.

you can repeat that a thousand times..

It does not change the fact that 90%+ of the World Countries say you are wrong.

When they shoot rockets into Haifa and kill innocent people, they are committing an act of terrorism. Period.

Israel bombed and killed Civilean first.. lots of Civileans (men, women and children)..
What did you expect Hezbollah to do?

No they didn't. News reports indicate that Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel before they even kidnapped the IDF soldiers, before this war started.

Let's turn it around, if Israel bombing civilians creates a justification for Hezbollah to bomb civilians, then the fact that Hezbollah fired rockets at Israeli civilians FIRST....israel is justified in their actions?

After all, what do you expect Israel to do?

They should have refused to respond in kind.tell that to the Founding fathers.
Tell that to the Irish.
Tell that to Nelson Mandela.
Tell that to Simon Bolivar.
Tell that to the French resistance.
Tell that to whoever defended their family/people against occupation.

When they (attack Israel, they are terrorists) Period.LOLerzone..

US citizen? ..so typical.

tell that to the Founding fathers.
Tell that to the Irish.
Tell that to Nelson Mandela.
Tell that to Simon Bolivar.
Tell that to the French resistance.
Tell that to whoever defended their family/people against occupation.

Wake up and recognize one damned thing. Hezbollah was firing rockets into Israel before Israel attacked.

Got it?

Note to self, don't give money for the next tsunami fund...

tell that to the Founding fathers.
Tell that to the Irish.
Tell that to Nelson Mandela.
Tell that to Simon Bolivar.
Tell that to the French resistance.
Tell that to whoever defended their family/people against occupation.

I don't recall any of them targeting purely civilian areas just to kill extra people.

And occupied land? Israel withdrew from Lebanon six years ago.

And don't say Shebaa Farms is Lebanese. The land was captured from Syria and the UN certified it isn't Lebanese.

I'm not suprised.

I'm going to donate 50$ to the IDF Soldier's fund.

dp

you can repeat that a thousand times..

It does not change the fact that 90%+ of the World Countries say you are wrong.

90% of the world is stoned/bombed/trashed out of their mind.

It's only because they're pussies and refuse to do what's right, and honourable.

Are they european?

Wake up and recognize one damned thing. Hezbollah was firing rockets into Israel before Israel attacked.

Got it?Go back and read my post again.. try reading S-L-O-W-L-Y.
specially the quote.

I don't recall any of them targeting purely civilian areas just to kill extra people.

And occupied land? Israel withdrew from Lebanon six years ago.

And don't say Shebaa Farms is Lebanese. The land was captured from Syria and the UN certified it isn't Lebanese.Go back and read my post again.. try reading S-L-O-W-L-Y.
specially the quote.

Go back and read my post again.. try reading S-L-O-W-L-Y.
specially the quote.

Did. My statement stands.

Tell that to whoever defended their family/people against occupation.

They have no right to deliberately destroy the families and lives of innocent people. That applies to all of those you named.

LOLerzone..

US citizen? ..so typical.

Don't misquote me. I didn't say "when they attack Israel." I said "when they shoot rockets into Haifa and kill innocent people." There is a difference.

Their attacks on Israeli military targets are simply stupid, not terroristic. And regardless, their ideology and ultimate objectives are still vile.

Israel bombed and killed Civilean first
No they didn't.yes they did.

dude.. wake up.. and smell the cofee. ;)

Wake up and recognize one damned thing. Hezbollah was firing rockets into Israel before Israel attacked.

Before Israel invaded, perhaps. There have been repeated cross-border raids by both sides since the withdrawal in 2000.

yes they did.

dude.. wake up.. and smell the cofee. ;)

Does it matter? If I commit murder, does that entitle you to commit murder?

And regardless, (Hezbollah) ideology and ultimate objectives are still vile.you forgot to write "period" at the end. ;)

yes they did.

dude.. wake up.. and smell the cofee. ;)


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=737825

Sure you want to keep claiming that?

Simultaneously with this ambush, Hezbollah also launched a diversionary attack: a barrage of mortar shells and Katyusha rockets on communities....That assault wounded five civilians

Does it matter? If I commit murder, does that entitle you to commit murder?It makes me a criminal..
But If you invade my country.. and opress my people.. I shall become criminal(I shall kill the opressors)

you forgot to write "period" at the end. ;)

Thanks for missing the point. Do you think replacing foreign oppressors with domestic ones is a good plan for improving the world?

It makes me a criminal..
But If you invade my country.. and opress my people.. I shall become criminal(I shall kill the opressors)

Please explain to me how people whose only crime is happening to live in Haifa are "oppressors."

ok he're what I say in reference to the whole Isreal and Hesbollah thing.

They're both quite similar to eachother and if the roles were reverse they'd be doing what the other is and so would most people if you put them in either position. Hell if I had been born in Palistine/Syria/Lebanon/etc I would probably have blown myself up by now. That being said Isreal doesn't want to kill me and/or force convert me. So any sane person in the West would side with Isreal, unless they have a death wish.

It makes me a criminal..
But If you invade my country.. and opress my people.. I shall become criminal(I shall kill the opressors)

So if an enemy say...fired rockets into your nation, harmed your civilians, and then invaded your country and kidnapped prisoners, you would turn on those attackers?

Congratulations, you just defended Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=737825

Sure you want to keep claiming that?absolutamente.

Go back and read the posts/replyes again..

*hint* You know its a good idea to do read a thread.. before posting.. if you dont.. you may be exposing your "intelligence".

.. try reading S-L-O-W-L-Y.

absolutamente.

Go back and read the posts/replyes again..

*hint* You know its a good idea to do read a thread.. before posting.. if you dont.. you may be exposing your stupidity.

.. try reading S-L-O-W-L-Y.

Let me ask you oa few simple questions. And all I want out of you is a yes, or a no. No division, no subterfuge, no fallacy. Yes, or no. Anything other than yes or no, and you'll be dodging the questions.

Question 1:

Do you believe that on July 12th, 2006 Hezbollah attacked Israel by launching mortars and rockets into civilian areas, yes or no?

Question 2:

Do you believe that at the same time, Hezbollah crossed The Lebanon/Israeli border and killed/kidnapped IDF soldiers? Yes or no?

Question 3:

Do you believe that if Hezbollah did attack first on July 12th, 2006, and attacked civilian targets, this constituted terrorism?

Question 4:

Do you believe that if Hezbollah crossed the Lebanese/Israeli border on July 12th, 2006, this constituted an invasion of Israel?

So if an enemy say...fired rockets into your nation, harmed your civilians, (OCCUPIED and OPRESSED) your country and kidnapped prisoners, you would turn on those (occupiers)?yes of course.

Would you not?

yes of course.



Do not change my quote. Respond to it as I wrote it. Answer MY question, not your own.

You quoted me as saying:

So if an enemy say...fired rockets into your nation, harmed your civilians, (OCCUPIED and OPRESSED) your country and kidnapped prisoners, you would turn on those (occupiers)?

That is not what I said. Don't you dare change my words. I stated:

So if an enemy say...fired rockets into your nation, harmed your civilians, and then invaded your country and kidnapped prisoners, you would turn on those attackers?

Answer my question, changing the words to suit your purposes is the tool of a coward who can not respond to the questions presented to him.

Let me ask you one simple question.?Only If you adress my previous posts first.. You are ignoring to points I lined up.

First come first serve.. once we are done with those previous points I will be more than glad to aswer your questions.

Let me ask you one simple question. And all I want out of you is a yes, or a no. No division, no subterfuge, no fallacy. Yes, or no. Anything other than yes or no, and you'll be dodging the questions.

Question 1:
Question 2:
Question 3:
Question 4:

That's four questions

Only If you adress my posts firts.. You are ignoring to points I lined up.

First come first serve.. once we are done with those previous points I will be more than glad to aswer your questions.

You have yet to make a point that can not be refuted by simply stating one simple fact. On July 12th, 2006, Hezbollah committed a terrorist act on Israel without provocation. And you can not refute that.

You are now dodging my questions.

That's four questions

...


shhhhhh!

Don't you dare change my words.Oh shit..

I am scared now :D :D :p :D

Would you not?

The answer to that question for me is "maybe," and some of my opposition to Hezbollah is rooted in that "maybe."

For instance, I would not align myself with reactionary terrorist gangs if that was the available means of resistance. I would, however, support left-wing revolutionary movements that combined a commitment to national liberation with a commitment to popular liberation, that refused to target innocent people, and that only used violence when it actually made sense to do so.

Replacing a foreign oppressor with a domestic one is not a good idea. Nor is deliberately killing innocent people, whatever the objective.

You have yet to make a point ...I have made several points that you have ignored..

The most important right now is this one:

Have you read this Thread (posts and replyes).. or Have you not?

A thread is like a back-and-for conversation.. Jumping into the convesation whitout knowing what we are talking about is.. stupid, it makes you look like a fool.

I have made several points that you have ignored..

The most important right now is this one:

Have you read this Thread (posts and replyes).. or Have you not?

A thread is like a back-and-for conversation.. Jumping into the convesation whitout knowing what we are talking about is.. stupid, it makes you look like a fool.

Your point from the beginning is that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, and only a few countries think it is.

However your intention that it is not is the only thing stupid and foolish here.

Did. My statement stands.hmmm

had you read the convestion we were having.. you would have noticed this:

I posted a list of revolutionary movements.. peoples who gained freedom killing their opresors

Because Soreham line is "thou shall not kill.. even if they are killing you.. thou shall not defend your family/pople agains occupiers.."

They should have refused to respond in kind. One atrocity does not justify another.(they killing your people.. does not justily You killing them)

So am I going to have to listen to a bunch of hawks call for us to "bomb them there Indonesians back to the stone age. YEE HA!"?

hmmm

had you read the convestion we were having.. you would have noticed this:

I posted a list of revolutionary movements.. peoples who gained freedom killing their opresors

Because Soreham line is "thou shall not kill.. even if they are killing you.. thou shall not defend your family/pople agains occupiers.."

Killing oppressors...

The Americans never sought to destroy the British

Neither did the Irish.

Nelson Mandela was non violent.

Simon Bolivar didn't try to end Spain.

The French resistance did take Germany and annex it but gave it independence three years later.

Hezbollah seeks to destroy the nation it is being "oppressed" by.

Just admit it: you want Israel destroyed.

Because Soreham line is "thou shall not kill.. even if they are killing you.. thou shall not defend your family/pople agains occupiers.."

Prove it. Quote me saying that. Don't change the quote, as you love doing; quote actual words of mine in which I denied the right to self-defense.

Your point from the beginning is that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization.So far so good (You got that rite)
and only a few countries think it is.yes, that too. (that is correct)
_______________________

at one point in page 2.. we started to argue about What orgs can be considered Terrorist..

-Their point was "Killing of Civileans"

-by page 3 My point was "But Isreal killed Civileans first"

-then at page 4 your counterpoint to me is: a post + link about the "killing and capturing of Israeli Soldiers "

disclaimer--all page counts are aproximative--

Prove it. Quote me saying that. this is what you said:

Israel bombed and killed Civilean first.. lots of Civileans (men, women and children)..
What did you expect Hezbollah to do?
They should have refused to respond in kind. One atrocity does not justify another.

They could have scored a major political victory with it, too.

Nelson Mandela was non violent..really? I learn new things everyday. :D :D ;) :D

So far so good (You got that rite)
yes, that too. (that is correct)
_______________________

at one point in page 2.. we started to argue about What orgs can be considered Terrorist..

-Their point was "Killing of Civileans"

-by page 3 My point was "But Isreal killed Civileans first"

-then at page 4 your counterpoint to me is: a post + link about the "killing and capturing of Israeli Soldiers "

disclaimer--all page counts are aproximative--

You should try reading the article. If you did then you would have noticed that at the same time that they were killing soldiers, they were also launching mortars and rockets into civilian areas. This happened BEFORE Israel attacked.

Before.

Now true civilians in this attack were injured, but not killed. Is your suggestion that attacking civilians, trying to kill civilains, but actually failing, somehow makes you less of a terrorist?

this is what you said:

Yes. I am opposed to attacks on civilians. I am not opposed to all uses of violence against an oppressor, as long as the violence is targeted at combatants or others directly involved in the management of the oppression (say, political leaders or collaborators), as long as its objectives are decent, and as long as it is smart.

Hezbollah's violence meets none of those criteria.