NationStates Jolt Archive

Consider this:

A cheap, reliable, 100% safe and effective teleportation system is devised. There is no risk of malfunction or disfigurement. Basically, you step into a box, a special scanner takes a perfect snapshot of every atom in your body, and this information is transmitted to your destination, where another device replicates your body exactly as it was when it was scanned, atom for atom. The process takes mere seconds (we'll ignore technological barriers for the sake of argument).

The catch? In the process of scanning your molecules, the scanner destroys them. That's right: your atomic blueprints cannot be copied and transmitted unless the original is disintegrated.

But hey, no problem! The scanner at your destination will replicate your body exactly as it was, right? Every atom, every cell, every nerve ending, neuron, and electrical impulse... right? The newly-created body will think and feel like you, have the same memories and personality, and the same identity. Right?

Some would argue that the replicated body would be nothing more than a clone, and that the original version of you would be lost forever. Others would say, "Hey! It's exactly the same! The replicated version has all the same atoms, neurons, thoughts, memories, etc., etc., etc., so it must be the same person!"

Right?

In light of this, would you use the teleporter? Why or why not?

If I were still me, then why not? Every cell in our bodies is destroyed and reproduced all the time anyway. You've been through thousands of versions of you since you were born already.

I thought "Hell yes!" when I saw the thread title... but then you had to go and rain on my Awesome Parade. Now I'm scared of the thing. <.< >.>

Consider this:

A cheap, reliable, 100% safe and effective teleportation system is devised. There is no risk of malfunction or disfigurement. Basically, you step into a box, a special scanner takes a perfect snapshot of every atom in your body, and this information is transmitted to your destination, where another device replicates your body exactly as it was when it was scanned, atom for atom. The process takes mere seconds (we'll ignore technological barriers for the sake of argument).

The catch? In the process of scanning your molecules, the scanner destroys them. That's right: your atomic blueprints cannot be copied and transmitted unless the original is disintegrated.

But hey, no problem! The scanner at your destination will replicate your body exactly as it was, right? Every atom, every cell, every nerve ending, neuron, and electrical impulse... right? The newly-created body will think and feel like you, have the same memories and personality, and the same identity. Right?

Some would argue that the replicated body would be nothing more than a clone, and that the original version of you would be lost forever. Others would say, "Hey! It's exactly the same! The replicated version has all the same atoms, neurons, thoughts, memories, etc., etc., etc., so it must be the same person!"

Right?

In light of this, would you use the teleporter? Why or why not?
No. I would die, and someone who is an exact duplicate of me will live. My consciousness would cease to exist.

If I were still me, then why not? Every cell in our bodies is destroyed and reproduced all the time anyway. You've been through thousands of versions of you since you were born already.
Yet such cell replacement is gradual. Your conscious mind is never terminated, then resumed shortly thereafter.

Yet such cell replacement is gradual. Your conscious mind is never terminated, then resumed shortly thereafter.
Have you never been asleep before? Conscious thought terminates and resumes after a number of hours. How are you even sure you are the same person in the morning that you were the night before?

No. I would die, and someone who is an exact duplicate of me will live. My consciousness would cease to exist.

That presumes that your consciousness is somehow not the sum of those particles.

Yet such cell replacement is gradual. Your conscious mind is never terminated, then resumed shortly thereafter.
If it's 100% safe, that bothers me little.

I WANT TO LIVE! So no.

I could walk on the ceiling and corrode people's limbs with my saliva...

Tempting.

Not.

Have you never been asleep before? Conscious thought terminates and resumes after a number of hours. How are you even sure you are the same person in the morning that you were the night before?
Your consciousness goes dormant, yet it still functions (i.e. dreams).

Yes, I would. I'd be exactly the same me with no risk of malfunction. Think of the time saved from normal transportation!

Have you never been asleep before? Conscious thought terminates and resumes after a number of hours. How are you even sure you are the same person in the morning that you were the night before?
:eek: I never thought about that...........

I will never sleep again!!!

hmm.........this calls for a Nightmare on Elm Street marathon.......OMG, it's Friday night! I can actually do that :eek: :D

That presumes that your consciousness is somehow not the sum of those particles.
Ok, imagine that such an identical clone of you is created, without you being destroyed first. From the moment of his creation, you would cease to be identical (he would acquire different memories). Then, seconds AFTER he is created, you are destroyed. How can that not be death?

Depends how much it costs. If its relatively cheap, then good shit.

If it's 100% safe, that bothers me little.
100% safe for your clone, not necessarily for you.

Have you never been asleep before? Conscious thought terminates and resumes after a number of hours. How are you even sure you are the same person in the morning that you were the night before?

Meng Tsu dreamt he was a butterfly, happily hovering over a meadow.
After he woke up, he wasn't sure whether he was a butterfly dreaming he was Meng Tsu.

Maybe we're all butterflies having nightmares?

100% safe for your clone, not necessarily for you.
Like I say, you are a permanent clone anyway. Who cares if it happens all at once?

Ok, imagine that such an identical clone of you is created, without you being destroyed first. From the moment of his creation, you would cease to be identical (he would acquire different memories). Then, seconds AFTER he is created, you are destroyed. How can that not be death?
That is a very, very good point...

That is a very, very good point...

Personally, I wouldn't mind dying if I were resurrected afterwards. People die in hospitals all the time.

Ok, imagine that such an identical clone of you is created, without you being destroyed first. From the moment of his creation, you would cease to be identical (he would acquire different memories). Then, seconds AFTER he is created, you are destroyed. How can that not be death?

Irrelevant, as that is not what is described. What is described is simultaneous destruction and reassembly - as one atom is destroyed, the other is reassembled. The sum of all that is in your body does not change - its location does.

Now, it strikes me as though you think that conciousness is something ethereal - something beyond that sum - that somehow "dies" despite there not being a single change (not a single one!) in the materials that sustain it. Like the delusional concept of the soul.

Like I say, you are a permanent clone anyway. Who cares if it happens all at once?
Hmm. Difficult to explain. Imagine that your mind is nothing but a very advanced computer. This computer's memory is made of millions of tiny, how-swappable modules (i.e. cells) through which data is being constantly transmitted (the operation system, i.e. your consciousness). The modules can be removed and replaced all the time, one by one, with no loss of data (the data will simply be transmitted through an alternate route during replacement). However, the transmission of the data itself will continue. But if the transmission is terminated ... death.

Now, it strikes me as though you think that conciousness is something ethereal - something beyond that sum - that somehow "dies" despite there not being a single change in the materials that sustain it. Like the delusional concept of the soul.
Or that the very nature of the soul being more than the sum means that it cannot be constrained by such notions of cellular disassembly.

But if the transmission is terminated ... death.
I'm not afraid of death, and I'm certainly not afraid of the death of an old copy of me.

Does the crab that loses a shell die?

Or that the very nature of the soul being more than the sum means that it cannot be constrained by such notions of cellular disassembly.

The thing being that the "soul" has no nature, as it is supernatural. I.e. a figment of the imagination.

The thing being that the "soul" has no nature, as it is supernatural. I.e. a figment of the imagination.
Then I imagine consciousness.

Irrelevant, as that is not what is described. What is described is simultaneous destruction and reassembly - as one atom is destroyed, the other is reassembled. The sum of all that is in your body does not change - its location does.

Now, it strikes me as though you think that conciousness is something ethereal - something beyond that sum - that somehow "dies" despite there not being a single change (not a single one!) in the materials that sustain it. Like the delusional concept of the soul.
But the process described allows for the possibility that you - the first you - could survive. His molecules are not used during the reassmbly; as the OP states, only the information is sent. Imagine that the apparatus malfunctioned somehow, leaving you intact, while still creating a clone at the other end. Who is you then?

Have you never been asleep before? Conscious thought terminates and resumes after a number of hours. How are you even sure you are the same person in the morning that you were the night before?

I am sure that I am not the same person as night before.

I and other people change all the time (from influences of outer environment), so that teleporter would be awesome. Same as public transport just better.

four words: power outage before reassembly?

Besides, think about it. A photocopy machine simply makes a picture of a piece of paper, correct? A duplicate... yet not quite as good.

Then you make a copy of the photocopy and it is... not quite as good. Each time you copy the copy, you lose some info and the copy gets worse.

Ever seen a paper that's been photocopied through different versions 20 times? And that's a simple process, rather than what you're describing here.

No thanks.

I'm not afraid of death, and I'm certainly not afraid of the death of an old copy of me.

Does the crab that loses a shell die?
The shell isn't the brain, though. Your uniqueness would live on, but your consciousness would not.

Your consciousness goes dormant, yet it still functions (i.e. dreams).
It even awakens if you go lucid while asleep..

Hell, I wouldn't be afraid if it was absolutely safe..

four words: power outage before reassembly?
"100% safe and effective teleportation system"
Besides, think about it. A photocopy machine simply makes a picture of a piece of paper, correct? A duplicate... yet not quite as good.

Then you make a copy of the photocopy and it is... not quite as good. Each time you copy the copy, you lose some info and the copy gets worse.Ever seen a paper that's been photocopied through different versions 20 times?

And that's a simple process, rather than what you're describing here

"There is no risk of malfunction or disfigurement. … another device replicates your body exactly as it was when it was scanned"

Then I imagine consciousness.

You're not imagining it. What you are imagining is that your consciousness is not of this world. I can take a scalpel to your brain and sever the connections between the different parts of it, radically altering your consciousness. Depending on where I inflict the lesions I can make you more docile or I can make you more aggressive. To hell with scalpels, I can do the same with drugs; blocking a synapse here, stimulating a synapse there, and again change your consciousness and personality radically.

But yet you would still claim that your conciousness is somehow beyond those very material phenomena?

But the process described allows for the possibility that you - the first you - could survive. His molecules are not used during the reassmbly; as the OP states, only the information is sent. Imagine that the apparatus malfunctioned somehow, leaving you intact, while still creating a clone at the other end. Who is you then?

"A cheap, reliable, 100% safe and effective teleportation system is devised. There is no risk of malfunction or disfigurement. Basically, you step into a box, a special scanner takes a perfect snapshot of every atom in your body, and this information is transmitted to your destination, where another device replicates your body exactly as it was when it was scanned, atom for atom. The process takes mere seconds (we'll ignore technological barriers for the sake of argument).

The catch? In the process of scanning your molecules, the scanner destroys them. That's right: your atomic blueprints cannot be copied and transmitted unless the original is disintegrated."

Have you even read the OP?

"100% safe and effective teleportation system"


"There is no risk of malfunction or disfigurement. … another device replicates your body exactly as it was when it was scanned"

NOTHING is 100% infallible. Except God, *if* you believe in Him.

four words: power outage before reassembly?

Besides, think about it. A photocopy machine simply makes a picture of a piece of paper, correct? A duplicate... yet not quite as good.

Then you make a copy of the photocopy and it is... not quite as good. Each time you copy the copy, you lose some info and the copy gets worse.

Ever seen a paper that's been photocopied through different versions 20 times? And that's a simple process, rather than what you're describing here.

No thanks.
We're ignoring nasty technical glitches now for the sake of argument. We're also assuming that the replication is absolutely perfect, even down at the atomic level.

What's at issue is not whether you'd risk horrible difigurement to teleport -- it's whether one's original consciousness could survive the process. Sure, an exact copy of that consciousness comes out the other end, and for all intents and purposes believes itself to be the original, but is that consciousness really the same one that entered? What is consciousness anyway?

And you can't really dismiss this as a rudimentary attempt to prove that souls exist. Like others have said: if the process is modified so that the original is not destroyed, and you end up with two identical versions of the same person, each with the same consciousness, then which one would be "you"?

NOTHING is 100% infallible. Except God, *if* you believe in Him.
This is a thought experiment, so anything's possible.

NOTHING is 100% infallible.

This machine is. It's what's called a "thought experiment" where other possibilities are ignored. So, please, stay on topic and don't introduce that which the OP has excluded.

NOTHING is 100% infallible. Except God, if you believe in Him.

Except, it would seem, the device in this scenario. We're not doing logic, we're doing philosophy.

Imagine that the apparatus malfunctioned somehow, leaving you intact, while still creating a clone at the other end. Who is you then?
But the OP states that it is 100% safe, and theres no risk of malfunction.

Besides, as soon as the clone is created, it would begin having different experiences and creating different memories than the "original", and so over time would end up as a different person. Like identical twins, sort of.

I'd use it, though probably only for long distance travel. Disintegrating my entire body to pop to the corner shop is just lazy :p

Only for short distances, as I enjoy traveling. Provided it's cheap.

The way I see it is, if I'm dead, whoop-de-doo, I get to figure out what's going on after death, without depriving the world of my wonderful self, and I just brought a new entity into existence. If I'm not, I just saved travel time.

The thing that should really worry people is the sanctity of motherhood here.

You're not imagining it. What you are imagining is that your consciousness is not of this world. I can take a scalpel to your brain and sever the connections between the different parts of it, radically altering you consciousness. Depending on where I inflict the lesions I can make you more docile or I can make you more aggressive. To hell with scalpels, I can do the same with drugs; blocking a synapse here, stimulating a synapse there, and again change your consciousness and personality radically.

But yet you would still claim that your conciousness is somehow beyond those very material phenomena?
If you used the same drugs to blind me I would not see; but would the things you placed in front of my eyes be no longer there? As much as you manipulate my physical characteristics you can never remove the fact that you are dealing with a very different animal to the beasts of the wild. Or can a vet also remove the ability to make a moral judgement, or the ability to think and decide?

Far be it for me to ruin the thread with anything approaching logic and realism to explain my reasoning for not using the technology, which was of course the point of the question in the first place. I mean hey, you're talking souls which were not a part of the original paradigm either, and working from the flawed assumption that there is no personhood or self when sleeping, when dreaming certainly disproves that.

Carry on.

Whether the pre-teleport and post-teleport mes are the same person is a matter of semantics and philosophical fingerwrangling. Given that both would have the exact same continuum of existence, just as pre-going-for-a-walk and post-going-for-a-walk me, there is no realistic reason to assume that just because I've been broken down and copied elsewhere I'm suddenly not who I was an instant ago. Using that sort of differential logic, every infinitesimal instant you are not the person you were the instant previous because you are in a constant state of becoming.

Whether teleport clones have 'souls' or are of 'the same spirit' as the original are academic problems with no materialistic meaning. If they are of separate spirit, the worst-case scenario is that the afterlife (if there is one) will be mighty crowded with copies, which could either be Heaven or Hell depending on the circumstances. ;)

That in mind, beam me up. Nothing is 100% effective, from walking across the street to moon rockets. A 1 in 100,000 chance of failure is close enough for me.

"A cheap, reliable, 100% safe and effective teleportation system is devised. There is no risk of malfunction or disfigurement. Basically, you step into a box, a special scanner takes a perfect snapshot of every atom in your body, and this information is transmitted to your destination, where another device replicates your body exactly as it was when it was scanned, atom for atom. The process takes mere seconds (we'll ignore technological barriers for the sake of argument).

The catch? In the process of scanning your molecules, the scanner destroys them. That's right: your atomic blueprints cannot be copied and transmitted unless the original is disintegrated."

Have you even read the OP?
I'm proposing a thought experiment of my own, to prove a point about the first.

If you used the same drugs to blind me I would not see; but would the things you placed in front of my eyes be no longer there?

That analogy has nothing to with the matter at hand. Yes, I can make you blind by affecting the parts of your brain that allow you to see, but I can also affect the parts of your brain that interpret what it is that you see. I can make you incapable of interpreting them - for instance, there are lesions described that make people unable to recognise faces (a recommended book on the subject is "The man who mistook his wife for a hat"). Why would your consciousness be different than that function?

As much as you manipulate my physical characteristics you can never remove the fact that you are dealing with a very different animal to the beasts of the wild.

If you think people have not suffered brain injuries and recovered from them completely changed, then you should pick up a newspaper. Ever heard of lobotomies?

Or can a vet also remove the ability to make a moral judgement, or the ability to think and decide?

Actually, yes. There used to be a treatment for epilepsy that severed the corpus callosum, making the two hemispheres of the brain unconnected to one another. The subjects ended up having enormous difficulties making decisions. There have also been described people with lesions of the frontal lobes that lost all sense of what you call "morality" - that lost all inhibitions when it comes to social interactions, all from committing murders to sexually abusing children to completely lacking a sense of fear or empathy.

The very simple fact is that your conciousness is not separate from your brain in any sense. What makes you different from the "beasts of the wild" is not some sort of magic, but your more evolved brain.

I'd give it a shot, though I know my clone would be mightily pissed if it thought it had killed me in its creation.

Well there does seem to be movement in that direction. Of course this technology is exactly related but who would have thought 3d printing was possible 50 years ago?

So if we can use this technology I fail to see how we cannot use the same principles for biologicals...eventually....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3126625.stm

Printers produce copies in 3D

The printer uses powder and a binding agent
It may sounds like science fiction, but the printer you buy in the future could be able to produce a real-life object from images on your computer.

Several companies are working on developing low-cost three-dimensional printers which could eventually find their way into the home.

The machines work by placing layers of a powdery material on top of each other to create a real-life model of a digital image.

"With hundreds and sometimes thousands of layers, we can develop a prototype that works, from coffee cups to car parts, in a variety of textures and colours," said Andy DeHart of the Z Corporation which makes 3D printers.

Layering technique

The Boston-based company was showing off its technology at the recent computer graphics Siggraph exhibition in the US.

"We can import data from any digital source," Mr DeHart told the BBC programme Go Digital.

"The data is brought into our print driver and then manipulated and exported to the 3D printer."

The Z Corporation machines use a technology to bind the powder first invented by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

It works by spreading a thin layer of powder which is shaped by a liquid sprayed from an ink-jet print head adapted from a Hewlett-Packard design.

The machine then repeats this process, building up layer after layer of powder until the object is complete.

"The printer is a slicing technology," said Mr DeHart. "Much like putting ink on paper, it prints on powder and places a binder or glue during the layering process."

High Street printers

Plaster print-outs of pipes
3D prototypes can be created quickly and cheaply
For the powder, the company uses plaster, but it has also used a ceramic material to create more lasting models.

Leading companies such as Sony, Adidas and BMW are using the 3D printing technology to create prototype models as it is faster and less expensive than using traditional methods.

Mr DeHart from Z Corporation said the technology could make it to the High Street, with printing shops offering 3D models as well as conventional photocopies.

"We don't feel our technology is expensive," said Mr DeHart. "Our entry level system starts at $30,000 and that system can support all powder types and all the geometric models."

Whether the pre-teleport and post-teleport mes are the same person is a matter of semantics and philosophical fingerwrangling. Given that both would have the exact same continuum of existence, just as pre-going-for-a-walk and post-going-for-a-walk me, there is no realistic reason to assume that just because I've been broken down and copied elsewhere I'm suddenly not who I was an instant ago. Using that sort of differential logic, every infinitesimal instant you are not the person you were the instant previous because you are in a constant state of becoming.
Maybe. I wouldn't stake my life on it.

I'm proposing a thought experiment of my own, to prove a point about the first.

No. What you are doing is assembling a straw man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) carrying a red herring. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html)

That analogy has nothing to with the matter at hand. Yes, I can make you blind by affecting the parts of your brain that allow you to see, but I can also affect the parts of your brain that interpret what it is that you see. I can make you incapable of interpreting them - for instance, there are lesions described that make people unable to recognise faces (a recommended book on the subject is "The man who mistook his wife for a hat"). Why would your consciousness be different that this function?
I have heard of these conditions, but again, just as being blind doesn't mean that objects disappear, a change in someone's mental state does not result in the person's original personality and soul disappearing. It is hidden, yes, but so are the objects to the blind man; you are essentially saying that 'if it is not visible, it is not there'.

If you think people have not suffered brain injuries and recovered from them completely changed, then you should pick up a newspaper. Ever heard of lobotomies?
Again, a changed person is not a different person.

The very simple fact is that your conciousness is not separate from your brain in any sense. What makes you different from the "beasts of the wild" is not some sort of magic, but your more evolved brain.
There are many things that make us different to the beasts; they never invented flushing toilets either.

I have heard of these conditions, but again, just as being blind doesn't mean that objects disappear, a change in someone's mental state does not result in the person's original personality and soul disappearing. It is hidden, yes, but so are the objects to the blind man; you are essentially saying that 'if it is not visible, it is not there'.


Again, a changed person is not a different person.


There are many things that make us different to the beasts; they never invented flushing toilets either.

We invented toilets as a result of the advanced brain.

No. What you are doing is assembling a straw man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) carrying a red herring. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html)
Fine, don't answer my question.

Depending on where I inflict the lesions I can make you more docile or I can make you more aggressive.

I rather doubt your proficiency in affecting such delicate change. Unless by 'more docile' you mean 'dead or crippled'

As for teleporting; You bet. I'd also want to use the same technology to 'back myself up' as life insurance. ;)

I rather doubt your proficiency in affecting such delicate change.

The change is anything but delicate. Lesions to the limbic system can cause agressive behaviour, and lobotomy can cause extreme docility.

I have heard of these conditions, but again, just as being blind doesn't mean that objects disappear, a change in someone's mental state does not result in the person's original personality and soul disappearing.

There it is again, that "soul." Which is a bunch of crock, of course, seeing as such profound changes in your personality can be afflicted so easily by manipulating your brain.

It is hidden, yes, but so are the objects to the blind man; you are essentially saying that 'if it is not visible, it is not there'.

No, what I am saying is "just because you claim there is an invisible gnome that lives in your ear" doesn't mean he lives there and his name is Mr. Chuck.

Your brain is not an interface between some magical part of you and the actually existing part of you - your brain is your conciousness.

Again, a changed person is not a different person.

So, you would say a person who is turned into a sexual abuser due to injury of the parts of the brain that control his ablity to actually control himself is the same person? Then you have some very weird notion of personality.

There are many things that make us different to the beasts; they never invented flushing toilets either.

You have your big brain to thank for those flushing toilets, as you have your brain to thank for being able to reason. Wait until you get Alzheimer's, then you'll see how conciousness is a matter of the very tangible, instead of some crock about the supernatural.

Anyone remember the beginning of "Start Trek: The (Slow) Motion Picture" or, even worse, "The Fly"? http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/fliege.gif

Hell no! Transporters scare me. Why not take shuttlecraft? Thunderhawks? Drop-pods? And for going around the world, I'd rather take a Zeppelin or a high-speed Maglev Train.

I don't trust those machines. (I can so understand Doc Bones, come to think of it!)

lobotomy can

Uhuh. And you personally and out-of-character are a proficient brain surgeon are you? I doubt it.

Uhuh. And you personally and out-of-character are a proficient brain surgeon are you? I doubt it.He is a doctor, which may have resulted in some background knowledge on the subject that wouldn't be common.

probably not.

I'm fat enough as it is, I would rather take the time and get some excersise than this instantanous transportation.

besides, who knows if memories will be transported, as well as personalities... people who go through it can physically look the same, but you cannot guarentee they will be the same. you can only account for the physical not their personailty nor their beliefs.

Yeah. You stay there and only your evil twin gets materialized elsewhere. No, thank you!

Yeah. You stay there and only your evil twin gets materialized elsewhere. No, thank you!

So you're evil?

So you're evil?
Uhm, no? Not completely, at least? I haven't used the transporter, so the evil part is still within me. ST-TOS "Enemy within" or, for that matter, ST-TNG "Second Chances"

Consider this:

A cheap, reliable, 100% safe and effective teleportation system is devised. There is no risk of malfunction or disfigurement. Basically, you step into a box, a special scanner takes a perfect snapshot of every atom in your body, and this information is transmitted to your destination, where another device replicates your body exactly as it was when it was scanned, atom for atom. The process takes mere seconds (we'll ignore technological barriers for the sake of argument).

The catch? In the process of scanning your molecules, the scanner destroys them. That's right: your atomic blueprints cannot be copied and transmitted unless the original is disintegrated.

But hey, no problem! The scanner at your destination will replicate your body exactly as it was, right? Every atom, every cell, every nerve ending, neuron, and electrical impulse... right? The newly-created body will think and feel like you, have the same memories and personality, and the same identity. Right?

Some would argue that the replicated body would be nothing more than a clone, and that the original version of you would be lost forever. Others would say, "Hey! It's exactly the same! The replicated version has all the same atoms, neurons, thoughts, memories, etc., etc., etc., so it must be the same person!"

Right?

In light of this, would you use the teleporter? Why or why not?
And just how did you solve the Uncertainty Principle problem? Heisenberg compensators?

An average human body is made up of about 7,000 trillion trillion atoms. Teleportation is restricted at present to tiny particles, such as individual photons, or to quantum properties of atoms. Don't expect a major breakthrough any time soon. And until there is a real device that I can study to satisfy my curiosity and ensure that it won't kill me I would have to say that I wouldn't use it.

The technology doesn't scare me, but since we still don't understand why we experience consciousness in the place, I'm not using it until I see some demonstrable proof that *I* come out the other side and not some *other* being just like me.

I guess I'm with Ginnoria.

(And I'm ignoring the Heisenburg issues since this is fantasy anyway)

Yes. No question. I am the sum of my component atoms, nothing more.

Yes. No question. I am the sum of my component atoms, nothing more.


I find it rather surprising how easily some of you risk your life on an assumption like that that no one can possibly know.

I find it rather surprising how easily some of you risk your life on an assumption like that that no one can possibly know.
Life is but an error that death seeks to correct :)

I would do that. I think sooner or later, the consciousness will fork like Unix-processes anyways due to technical progress.

Could I create a resonance cascade with it? :D
*Dons HEV suit*

In light of this, would you use the teleporter? Why or why not?
ummmm, can I get a penis enlargement enroute??? :p

I find it rather surprising how easily some of you risk your life on an assumption like that that no one can possibly know.
That's the sticking point for me as well. It is impossible to know, since merely asking the person who exits the teleporter if they're the same or not will yield the same result -- "yes" -- no matter what happens. You'd even reach the same conclusions if you entered yourself. It boils down to two scenarios:

Scenario 1: You walk into the teleporter, experience a few seconds of nothingess as you're disintegrated, transmitted, and recreated, then awaken at your destination. Teleportation is like a quick instance of deep sleep.

Scenario 2: You walk into the teleporter and die. That's it. You're disintegrated, lost forever. Meanwhile, at your destination, a perfect copy of you is created, awakens, and thinks that they just survived the teleportation unscathed, as in Scenario 1. Of course, this "clone" never really stepped into the first teleporter. In fact, he/she has only just now started experiencing the world. But he/she nevertheless carries your memories, including the memory of walking into the teleporter, and is therefore none the wiser to what has really happened. And to everyone else, the clone is you.

So you couldn't know the truth even if you tried it yourself -- either there is a continuity of consciousness, and the consciousness that enters is the exact same one that walks out at the other end, leaving you to assume that teleportation's safe... or you die, and a clone takes your place, who then reaches the same conclusion.

In fact, the more you think about it, the harder it gets to tell the two scenarios apart...

Heady stuff. For the record, I'd be scared as hell.

Also, I did some searching around on Wikipedia, and found some interesting articles that touch on this subject. There's the Swamp Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swamp_man) thought experiment, which starts out interestingly enough, but then gets bogged down in snitty semantic jargon about marbles and causal history.

Also worth checking out are the articles on Teleportation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleportation#Teleportation_scenarios), Dualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism), and the category for the Philosophy of Mind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Philosophy_of_mind). There's also The Ship of Theseus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus) and Identity and Change (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_and_Change) for anyone who mentioned that your cells are changing and replacing themselves constantly.

Enjoy...

No. The stream of consciousness that makes up "me" would have been broken.

Hell no! Transporters scare me. Why not take shuttlecraft? Thunderhawks? Drop-pods?

Because you might scatter off the table. And besides, if you get a teleport homer you'll be fine.

Anyway, I'd take the teleporter. People saying "my soul will be killed" strike me as being remarkably similar to being afraid cameras are stealing your soul.

I would say no. Sure I would have a clone, but the Wilgrove you all know and love would be gone. My soul would be gone.

My answer will be "no".

The fact of the matter is nothing is 100% foolproof and, in the eventuality that the transmitter decides to go apeshit, I (the ever-so-lucky person that I am) would most certainly get to be the first living model of a Picasso masterpiece.

I don't want to be able to see up my nose for the rest of life.

I just read a novella about teleport booths, called Flash Crowd by Larry Niven.
It's all about the misuse of them a few years after their invention and adoption. Cars are no longer needed and people can live anywhere.
As a result, all the beautiful wonderful places in the world we all dream of visiting (eg Tahiti, Hawaii) are totally spoilt due to being totally overcrowded.
The main point of the story though is about rioting. With the ease of jumping from one place to anywhere, a Movement starts that is basically a rolling riot mob. Whereever there's a minor disturbance (in the story, an angry shoplifter creates a scene and thus draws a crowd) a mob suddenly appears and starts rioting, only to jump out when the police show up. Hence the name Flash crowd - their arrival causes a flash point from unruly mob to all-out rioting.

Kinda interesting story, just the sort one expects from Larry Niven.

Have you never been asleep before? Conscious thought terminates and resumes after a number of hours. How are you even sure you are the same person in the morning that you were the night before?
The same happens to me with vodka.

I would, yes.

The same happens to me with vodka.

Amen



And hell yes I would.

Oh, I certainly would. :) Right after I reprogram the system to send copies of me to all end terminals simultaneously.

So you'd destroy one goofball, and create a MILLION MORE!!!

AHHH HAHAHAHA!!!! :D

Consider this:

A cheap, reliable, 100% safe and effective teleportation system is devised. There is no risk of malfunction or disfigurement. Basically, you step into a box, a special scanner takes a perfect snapshot of every atom in your body, and this information is transmitted to your destination, where another device replicates your body exactly as it was when it was scanned, atom for atom. The process takes mere seconds (we'll ignore technological barriers for the sake of argument).

The catch? In the process of scanning your molecules, the scanner destroys them. That's right: your atomic blueprints cannot be copied and transmitted unless the original is disintegrated.

But hey, no problem! The scanner at your destination will replicate your body exactly as it was, right? Every atom, every cell, every nerve ending, neuron, and electrical impulse... right? The newly-created body will think and feel like you, have the same memories and personality, and the same identity. Right?

Some would argue that the replicated body would be nothing more than a clone, and that the original version of you would be lost forever. Others would say, "Hey! It's exactly the same! The replicated version has all the same atoms, neurons, thoughts, memories, etc., etc., etc., so it must be the same person!"

Right?

In light of this, would you use the teleporter? Why or why not?

Our humanity is not atomic, but spiritual.

I'd put a few other people through the whole thing first, but...

Basically, the phrase I'm looking for is: Scotty beam me up!

My trust in technology like that is not that great, so no.

Oh, I certainly would. :) Right after I reprogram the system to send copies of me to all end terminals simultaneously.

So you'd destroy one goofball, and create a MILLION MORE!!!

AHHH HAHAHAHA!!!! :D
http://simpsons.skewsme.com/img/homer_clones.jpg

http://simpsons.skewsme.com/img/homer_clones.jpg

Goofballs everywhere. Worldwide all at once! Imagine the glorious chaos!

My god, it'll be beautiful. *weeps*

http://simpsons.skewsme.com/img/homer_clones.jpg



AAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Goofballs everywhere. Worldwide all at once! Imagine the glorious chaos!

My god, it'll be beautiful. *weeps*
*waits till LG is too busy with the twins*
*laces mud with acid*
*watches clones melt*

AAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Me wins!

Me wins!

No, continuity of consciousness and all that.

Me wins!

Me wins!
:headbang:
:fluffle:

:headbang:
:fluffle:
:p

Me winnnsss.

A cheap, reliable, 100% safe and effective teleportation system is devised. There is no risk of malfunction or disfigurement. Basically, you step into a box, a special scanner takes a perfect snapshot of every atom in your body, and this information is transmitted to your destination, where another device replicates your body exactly as it was when it was scanned, atom for atom.
What about the electromagnetic field around nerves? Like a computer, the human brain stores much vital information in electircal form, but unlike a computer it can't be rebooted.

*waits till LG is too busy with the twins*
*laces mud with acid*
*watches clones melt*

AH, there isn't enough acid. Why? Because the teleporters are still working, and a million goofballs stand ready to go through again! ... :eek:

Infinite Goofballs! :eek:

AH, there isn't enough acid. Why? Because the teleporters are still working, and a million goofballs stand ready to go through again! ... :eek:

Infinite Goofballs! :eek:
*mocks hitler*
*kills self*

*mocks hitler*
*kills self*

*creates a new Ruffi from the stored pattern as a pet for the goofballs*

Anybody else want a pet ruffi? :)

Even in death I'm exploited.




I love it!

One note that might be a little relevant to this discussion (not really about the teleporter though – I would take it btw).

There were some experiments a while ago with cryogenics (I would be overjoyed if someone could find the article) where they were using some protein from an Antarctic fish (which allows it to be frozen without ill effects) and seeing if they could duplicate the effect for another animal.

They somehow treated a dog with this anti-ice protein then flushed the circulatory system with very cold liquids replacing the blood. They basically froze the dog in this fashion. A few hours later they flushed out the freezing liquid, replacing it with warm blood, and warmed the animal back up. They then used a defibrillator to restart the heart and got it breathing again. After a few minutes the dog was apparently in reasonable health.

I am wondering what has progressed from this, and if they would then try with a pet dog or something which would know one of the researchers, have a known personality, know a few tricks, remember where in a house its food bowl was, etc. would it still have the same personality? Would it be the same dog or effectively another dog in the same body?

If the technology ever does come into being. I cant wait to hear the respective churches 'teachings' on it..:)

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest, as long as there's an absolute certainty that the original is destroyed upon confirmation of the teleported one's apperance. There would have to be a delay of course during which there would be two of you. Otherwise any interruption in transmission would kill you.

Though I suppose the Alice unit could simply hold a copy of the data til the Bob unit acknowledge receipt.

Zombie thread put back in its grave.