NationStates Jolt Archive

I honestly didn't think that it was this extensive:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060808/ap_on_re_us/vietnam_war_atrocities


LOS ANGELES - Atrocities against civilians and prisoners by Army soldiers during the Vietnam War were more common than originally disclosed to the public, according to a Los Angeles Times review of recently unsealed government files.

...

Still, few soldiers were held accountable for the war crimes, according to the newspaper's findings which appeared in Sunday's edition.

The abuse was not restricted to one rogue Army division, but was committed by every Army division operating in Vietnam, the Times review found.

Among the incidents documented in the files:

_Seven civilian massacres from 1967 to 1971 that left at least 137 dead.

_Seventy-eight additional attacks on unarmed civilians that left at least 57 dead, 56 wounded and 15 sexually assaulted.

_141 incidents in which U.S. soldiers tortured civilian detainees and prisoners of war.

In one incident detailed in the report, members of the B Company in February 1968 rounded up and gunned down a group of villagers that included women and children after being ordered by a lieutenant to "kill anything that moves."

The files, collected by a Pentagon task force in the 1970s, do not include the most notorious U.S. atrocity, the 1968 My Lai massacre. The incident, which left some 500 Vietnamese villagers dead, was exposed by reporter Seymour Hersh the following year.

Retired Brig. Gen. John H. Johns, who was part of the task force that gathered the files, said he no longer thought the atrocities should remain in the dark.

"We can't change current practices unless we acknowledge the past," said Johns, 78.

The files show investigators found enough evidence to charge 203 soldiers with crimes related to the mistreatment of Vietnamese civilians and prisoners. But only 57 soldiers were court-martialed and 23 convicted, the Times reported.

Fourteen soldiers received prison sentences ranging from six months to 20 years, but most served much less time.

A former legal adviser to the Army's Criminal Investigation Division said there was scarce interest in prosecuting Vietnam war crimes after the war.

"Everyone wanted Vietnam to go away," said Steven Chucala, now a civilian attorney for the Army in Virginia.



I wouldnt be surprised if the majority of attrocities commited against civilians in Iraq were being supressed too. I hope we prosecute all war crimes that we find otu about.

That just goes to show there's a little naiveté in us all, Su.

Since when is war supposed to be free of atrocities? I seem to have missed the fad. War is war nothing else, death, destruction and murder hundred-fold.

So the US committed war crimes en-masse in Vietnam, well good for them, the Russians and Germans did the same only thirty years earlier, the Serbs did it twenty years later. An innocent war is a fools dream.

What did they do, list every casualty as a war crime?

Glad to see the early readers of this are as unimpressed as I am.

What did they do, list every casualty as a war crime?
The article answers your question:
Some 9,000 pages of records — the largest collection of documented war crimes in Vietnam — include sworn witness testimony, investigative files and status reports for top military brass that detail 320 wartime atrocities substantiated by the Army.

Glad to see the early readers of this are as unimpressed as I am.
See no evil, hear no evil.

It's the army working through its own records. You're supposed to hail that as an achievement of that organisation, not start doubting the results for no reason.

The article answers your question:



See no evil, hear no evil.

It's the army working through its own records. You're supposed to hail that as an achievement of that organisation, not start doubting the results for no reason.

So...It's like 30 pages a crime. That's more reasonable.

Honestly? It doesn't surprise me in the least. Actually, I'm surprised the numbers are this "low". I would have expected way more. But then again, those are only the incidents that were officially recorded.

And I'm neither arguing from a standpoint of "Oooh, the evil Americans, of course they'd go around murdering civilians" nor from what Cybach above said re. this being normal for war and "good for them, 'cause everybody's doing it".

I do think that things like this are indeed unavoidable in war, because war - every war, but some probably even more than others - has the awful power to at least temporarily, if not permanently, reduce people to something way beyond what they would ever have become in civilian life. It certainly doesn't do so with every soldier, obviously, but even some are too many.
And it certainly isn't confined to Americans nor to a specific war.

There's an excerpt from a poem that comes to mind:

Merry it was to laugh there -
Where death becomes absurd and life absurder.
For power was on us as we slashed bones bare
Not to feel sickness or remorse of murder.

It's from Apologia Pro Poemate Meo by Wilfred Owen, an English soldier.

He wrote it in 1917.

The article answers your question:



See no evil, hear no evil.

It's the army working through its own records. You're supposed to hail that as an achievement of that organisation, not start doubting the results for no reason.

You have to admit that the thread title spins it a bit.

"New Report: 9,000 pages of war crimes in Vietnam", has quite a different impact to "Army review finds evidence of 320 war crimes in Vietnam".

Actually, given that the US kept such a large presence there for so long, and many were draftees that didn't want to be there and didn't believe in the conflict, I'm suprised the number is that low.

You have to admit that the thread title spins it a bit.
The thread? Yes.
The article? No.

That's why you need to provide a source for the info you use. The person starting the thread has any right to present his opinion any way he or she wants, as long as we can follow the source.

As it is, it is indeed 9,000 pages - indicating that there was reasonably thorough investigations and probably quite a bit of evidence. It was 320 cases, in these documents. That doesn't have to be all-inclusive, and I am surprised if the actual number wouldn't be a lot higher.

More interesting is the suggestion that it wasn't rogue units or bad apples, but a broader problem, and that the person doing the investigation hints that the US Army hasn't really changed its ways.

So...has anybody bothered compiling a report of the war crimes commited by North Vietnam during the war?
Oh, wait, they were 'liberating' South Vietnam from the EVIL United States Puppet Government Brand Government (Copyright 1947), so theyre ALLOWED, right?

Since when is war supposed to be free of atrocities? I seem to have missed the fad. War is war nothing else, death, destruction and murder hundred-fold.
Doubly so when the only opinion about the opponent is that they are uncouth savages that arn't like the people living in your egocentric country of jingoists.


So the US committed war crimes en-masse in Vietnam, well good for them, the Russians and Germans did the same only thirty years earlier, the Serbs did it twenty years later. An innocent war is a fools dream.
Soviet Russia? Who we were suppsoed to be better than because they were evil commies?
Nazi Germany? Infamous for making no bones about throwing Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and invalids into ovens.
This sicks attitude is what leads to war crimes - the idea that we are inherently better and thus our opponent's lives are worthless or the idea that other people did it too so it is ok for us to do it. Bullshit. Anyone who advanced either of those ideas should be shut in a mental facility for counseling until need be or locked away in a cell.

So...has anybody bothered compiling a report of the war crimes commited by North Vietnam during the war?
Oh, wait, they were 'liberating' South Vietnam from the EVIL United States Puppet Government Brand Government (Copyright 1947), so theyre ALLOWED, right?
Wow. Just wow.

So, it's okay because someone else did it?

Or is it the same ol' "If you critisize us, you must be with them." method of squelching dissent?

Either way it's naked, pathetic, and embarrassing.

So...has anybody bothered compiling a report of the war crimes commited by North Vietnam during the war?
Oh, wait, they were 'liberating' South Vietnam from the EVIL United States Puppet Government Brand Government (Copyright 1947), so theyre ALLOWED, right?
So your justification is that someone else did it?

Sense when does "Someone else did it" get you off the hook personaly?

Just cause someone else murders and rapes 2 kids means it is alright for you to only rape and murder 1?

So your justification is that someone else did it?

Sense when does "Someone else did it" get you off the hook personaly?

Just cause someone else murders and rapes 2 kids means it is alright for you to only rape and murder 1?

It is if you do it to bring apple pie, baseball and the draft to the ignorant savages.

Meh.

Shitty things were done by both sides.

You always hear about the US stuff but you rarely if ever hear about the NVA or the Viet Cong "activities"

There was once an incident were they went in and butchered a village because the men where in the South Viet army.

Meh.

Shitty things were done by both sides.

You always hear about the US stuff but you rarely if ever hear about the NVA or the Viet Cong "activities"

There was once an incident were they went in and butchered a village because the men where in the South Viet army.
Are you fucking kidding me, we rarely hear about Viet Cong activities? Are you really trying to be serious? Do you live in a cave?

I know for sure there were war crimes in Vietnam....


Ask john mccain. He spent time in one.

If you think we committed "war crimes" as lightly in vietnam we were, imagine if we had REALLY put out backs into it. One side of Vietnam would be green and lush, the other would be a barren landscape. I'll let you guess which one...

Are you fucking kidding me, we rarely hear about Viet Cong activities? Are you really trying to be serious? Do you live in a cave?

Post some o might knower of all things Varmint cong.

I know for sure there were war crimes in Vietnam....


Ask john mccain. He spent time in one.

If you think we committed "war crimes" as lightly in vietnam we were, imagine if we had REALLY put out backs into it. One side of Vietnam would be green and lush, the other would be a barren landscape. I'll let you guess which one...

Are you trying to justify such pretty little things as My Lai?

I know for sure there were war crimes in Vietnam....


Ask john mccain. He spent time in one.

If you think we committed "war crimes" as lightly in vietnam we were, imagine if we had REALLY put out backs into it. One side of Vietnam would be green and lush, the other would be a barren landscape. I'll let you guess which one...
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11516770&postcount=14

I honestly didn't think that it was this extensive:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060808/ap_on_re_us/vietnam_war_atrocities



I wouldnt be surprised if the majority of attrocities commited against civilians in Iraq were being supressed too. I hope we prosecute all war crimes that we find otu about.

just like we did with the nazis,or the firebombing of tokyo...or when the huns over ran whoever..ad nauseam...bad shit happens in war,always did..always will.
hold your breath about truth and honesty..and a fair fight....when the allies bombed dresden into ashes...no one blinked twice...or when hitler launched v2 rockets at england......wow the parralels(sp) is funny...the hizzie bizes are launching rockets willy nilly on the izzys and the world goes round.

hate to steal from rappers(cause all they care about is girls and drugs...but they are right...it is a roundabout..

play the blame game all day...trace it back..we are all equally guilty!

guess we suck as a species.

Are you trying to justify such pretty little things as My Lai?

Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

Are you trying to justify such pretty little things as My Lai?

Did I?

Nope. My lai's been dealt with.

What did they do, list every casualty as a war crime?

It lists less than 200 civilian deaths. That's definately not the 2-4 million total civilian deaths in the war - it's a mere .01%. Rather than being surprised it was that high, I'm surprised it was that low.

guess we suck as a species.
That's a fucking cop-out if I ever saw one. We don't 'suck as a species'. But what a goodly number of people seem to excel at doing is coming up with mega-lame justifications for never bothering to clean up our collective act.

That's a fucking cop-out if I ever saw one. We don't 'suck as a species'. But what a goodly number of people seem to excel at doing is coming up with mega-lame justifications for never bothering to clean up our collective act.

Clearly, that's because, in general, we suck.

I think you shouldn't've deleted that last post, Ctoan. It warmed me to my very toes, it did.

That's a fucking cop-out if I ever saw one. We don't 'suck as a species'. But what a goodly number of people seem to excel at doing is coming up with mega-lame justifications for never bothering to clean up our collective act.

not a cop out...really....my uncle lost his legs in vietnam,as i am sur some poor innocent child burned to death from our napalm....

just like forever in history...innocents and combatants suffer and die...my point is..point your crooked finger wherever...we suck and are brutal to our "enemies"
till we have no enemies,i suggest not pointing fingers....as throughout our collective history..we have brutalized our own..over boundries or tribes.

i bet even you passive canucks fucked over someone or something...but i'll be damned if i can find an instance..lol..you guys are pretty smart.

joking aside...why doesnt anyone realise we are a violent and possesive(sp) species?

human nature aint that far removed from the animal kingdom(just a tad more deadly)
but the point remains..most humans aspire to attain wealth..and some will do unspeakable things to acquire said wealth(russian mob comes to mind)

that is not to far of a stretch to the animal kingdom...and that brings us full circle...

my head is hurting now..lol...i need to conquer a country so i can take their resources...kinda a familiar chorus of history i think.

I was in a hurry earlier when I posted that and had to leave right away.

I had figured there were a high number of war crimes but yes I am probably naieve to not have figured it that high or even higher. I fell asleep in my Vietnam history class.

I really posted this to point out how long the govt. keeps such things under wraps for those who say that they prosecute people right away when they find out about things (often heard by Iraq war supporters). I just want there to be heavy oversight of how the Iraq war is prosecuted and those commiting war crimes be made example of in a major way.

Also it found it interesting that:
The abuse was not restricted to one rogue Army division, but was committed by every Army division operating in Vietnam, the Times review found.

How can we then, not be sure that the same is occuring in every military division in Iraq as well?

yes, war is hell and people die... duh

BUT, anyone who argues that this is always going to be the norm during war and is okay with it, is morally bankrupt and has no right to claim that they are for the war in Iraq because Saddam was a murderer - you are basically saying you are okay with the rape, torture and murder of innocent people.

I think you shouldn't've deleted that last post, Ctoan. It warmed me to my very toes, it did.

Yes. Put it back. I am curious now.

As to the cave comment, no actually. I know a bit more then you think as I missed serving in the war by a couple years. My buddy did two tours in the Rangers.

The point was there seems to be more "formal" listings of US crimes vs the NVA and the Cong.

Again Meh over the issue.

It's fine to document it for historical sake.

The Vietnamese have moved on and we should too.

Post some o might knower of all things Varmint cong.

You've really got that hillbilly thing down, DM. :D
I didn't understand a word of it!

I was in a hurry earlier when I posted that and had to leave right away.

I had figured there were a high number of war crimes but yes I am probably naieve to not have figured it that high or even higher. I fell asleep in my Vietnam history class.

I really posted this to point out how long the govt. keeps such things under wraps for those who say that they prosecute people right away when they find out about things (often heard by Iraq war supporters). I just want there to be heavy oversight of how the Iraq war is prosecuted and those commiting war crimes be made example of in a major way.

Also it found it interesting that:


How can we then, not be sure that the same is occuring in every military division in Iraq as well?

yes, war is hell and people die... duh

BUT, anyone who argues that this is always going to be the norm during war and is okay with it, is morally bankrupt and has no right to claim that they are for the war in Iraq because Saddam was a murderer - you are basically saying you are okay with the rape, torture and murder of innocent people.


Around 3,000,000 US servicemen served in Vietnam between 65-73. The report found that there was enough evidence to charge 203 with mistreatment of prisoners and civilians. It hardly seems, based upon the numbers, that brutality by the US was that widespread.

Also, I'm not surprise that it happened to almost - or every division - because the numbers seem to indicate that they were isolated incidents. (Less than .01% of servicemen were involved).

Probably they should have prosecuted those that were guilty more zealously, but it hardly seems like a cover up of epic proportions.

Also, vietnam was over a long time ago. We might as well sit here moaning about the number of rapes commited by US servicemen in france.

I honestly didn't think that it was this extensive:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060808/ap_on_re_us/vietnam_war_atrocities



I wouldnt be surprised if the majority of attrocities commited against civilians in Iraq were being supressed too. I hope we prosecute all war crimes that we find otu about.
Agreed!!

I know for sure there were war crimes in Vietnam....


Ask john mccain. He spent time in one.

If you think we committed "war crimes" as lightly in vietnam we were, imagine if we had REALLY put out backs into it. One side of Vietnam would be green and lush, the other would be a barren landscape. I'll let you guess which one...
For some reason, I don't think I will ever be able to figure out why you use Biblical quotes in your siggy considering your outlook and attitude towards humanity........

137 innocent Vietnamese killed? That's like.. the first 90 seconds of any Hollywood Vietnam movie...

We should be doing everything possible to avoid civilian casualties, no doubt, but if you've got 2 or 300,000 troops in an asian jungle for all those years, fighting an enemy using the kind of tactics they used, it's unavoidable that something's going to happen.

For some reason, I don't think I will ever be able to figure out why you use Biblical quotes in your siggy considering your outlook and attitude towards humanity........

The only reason most people are even aware Ezekiel exists, much less rememeber any part of it because of Pulp Fiction. Otherwise it'd probably be the "Vengeance is Mine, Sayeth the Lord" we'd see in its spot.

And I did sig one of his most ironic posts as Exhibit A on his outlook and attitude towards humanity. Hell, if he was alive back in the 1800s I wouldn't be surprised if he specifically went to the trouble of scalping every native tribesman that were killed.

And I did sig one of his most ironic posts as Exhibit A on his outlook and attitude towards humanity. Hell, if he was alive back in the 1800s I wouldn't be surprised if he specifically went to the trouble of scalping every native tribesman that were killed.
Irony is not the most appropriate word for that post.....megalomania comes to mind. :(

Irony is not the most appropriate word for that post.....megalomania comes to mind. :(

Well, it's irony in that gaping hypocritical sense. Especially that attitude of "They murder people so it's okay to murder them" justification and collective punishment.

Ah yes, the time-honoured "we could have done even worse had we tried harder" excuse...

Yay for cognitive dissonance!!

Without all the die-hard redneck US military apologists out there would have to face up to the fact that their side isn't as wonderful and liberating as they like to enforce at every possible opportunity, mainly through denigrating and demonising the opposition.
Without CD, I guess they'd be squirming uncomfortably about the comparisons that could be drawn between their beloved noble military and the dirty evil ragheads/slanty-eyes (cross out whichever's not being used in this particular case)

I can't wait to hear them use the following excuses regarding the tactics the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan or Hizbollah in Lebanon are using:
"fighting an enemy using the kind of tactics they used, it's unavoidable that something's going to happen" (Pepe)
"Since when is war supposed to be free of atrocities? I seem to have missed the fad. War is war nothing else, death, destruction and murder hundred-fold" (Cybach)
"Glad to see the early readers of this are as unimpressed as I am." ( Myrmidonisia)
"Meh. Shitty things were done by both sides." (The Black Forrest)
"bad shit happens in war,always did..always will...guess we suck as a species." (Secret aj man)

Now why do I think holding my breath waiting for them to post such things is not a good idea?

I honestly didn't think that it was this extensive:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060808/ap_on_re_us/vietnam_war_atrocities



I wouldnt be surprised if the majority of attrocities commited against civilians in Iraq were being supressed too. I hope we prosecute all war crimes that we find otu about.


Haven't you yet figured out that it takes a defeat + occupation to get prosecuted for warcrimes?

Haven't you yet figured out that it takes a defeat + occupation to get prosecuted for warcrimes?

Slobodan Milosovik.

Slobodan Milosovik.

See?

See?

So as long as the United States never officially loses a war you're perfectly willing to let any war crimes committed by its troops slip by. How convenient.

Ah yes, the time-honoured "we could have done even worse had we tried harder" excuse...

Well, that's correct. We could have killed far more if we had tried harder. Killing lots of people in a very short span of time is our specialty.

Well, that's correct. We could have killed far more if we had tried harder. Killing lots of people in a very short span of time is our specialty.

So in other words "We didn't kill as many as we could" is an excuse for killing people in the first place? Can't wait until Bin Ladin or Hezbullah throws that line in their next speech.

So in other words "We didn't kill as many as we could" is an excuse for killing people in the first place? Can't wait until Bin Ladin or Hezbullah throws that line in their next speech.

Oh no! You misunderstand. I was just saying that we could have killed more, just as a statement of fact. Nothing more. I was saying that we're good at killing things, and we didn't do our best. We didn't give our 100%.

So in other words "We didn't kill as many as we could" is an excuse for killing people in the first place? Can't wait until Bin Ladin or Hezbullah throws that line in their next speech.
Hey, new Saddham defense: "I could have killed everyone, but I didn't. I only killed as many people as necessary to cement my power and stop rebellion. Perfectly legal."

Yay for cognitive dissonance!!

"Meh. Shitty things were done by both sides." (The Black Forrest)



Yea I am a redneck! :rolleyes: