NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUSn-jBA3CE

Bleeding edge, running a dual head with XGL/COMPIZ

Just look at the watter effects and how it treats your visual environment as a physical one being able to adjust and move the “cube” around

Not only that but he has managed to do it on a dual head rather then 2 video cards (posi have you managed that yet? I know you had a single head version of this running)
Anyway about my Microsoft comment … they have been working for what like 5 frigging years on vista and they scraped most of their visual upgrades … yet open source yet again manages what Microsoft fails at.

Open source has a vastly larger talent pool to draw from, and no one making unreasonable demands of the programmers. I doubt Microsoft will ever outdo an open source project.

5 minutes later and the effects start to get really annoying.

The only useful thing is the cube which is what finally made me like virtual desktops, but you know what I did then? Started using them and chucked the cube, too.

As I said, nice looking, but gets old really fast. And that's not even touching on the bugs and video issues...

5 minutes later and the effects start to get really annoying.

The only useful thing is the cube which is what finally made me like virtual desktops, but you know what I did then? Started using them and chucked the cube, too.

As I said, nice looking, but gets old really fast. And that's not even touching on the bugs and video issues...
I kept them all personally … I mean I have not managed dual head yet but a single head I have been doing fine with for a month or two now

reminds me of the article in the latest Scientific American, talking about new methods of ray tracing that far outstrip current methods of rendering graphics (and produce a more realistic image).

Where were the big video card companies, or Microsoft, on ideas like this?

Nowhere!

that is really cool.
my computer has got the two moniter set up buti like the cube and the effects. and vistas is crap my friend has it on her computer and its a pain

reminds me of the article in the latest Scientific American, talking about new methods of ray tracing that far outstrip current methods of rendering graphics (and produce a more realistic image).

Where were the big video card companies, or Microsoft, on ideas like this?

Nowhere!
In the end open source will push the envelope … it will be complicated but cool as hell, then one of the big companies will grab a hold … push it a bit farter, slap a price tag on it and say they came up with the idea all along

Pretty neat! I liked the water effects and nice speed as well...

but...

What is the application of this tech? I can only think of niche markets like imaging engineers, CAD artists or mapping types....

I can't think of a biz application for this unless it can radically change the way data is represented/displayed....but yeah it looks really sweet...and I could not see myself using that for more and a couple of days before going nuts.

Pretty neat! I liked the water effects and nice speed as well...

but...

What is the application of this tech? I can only think of niche markets like imaging engineers, CAD artists or mapping types....

I can't think of a biz application for this unless it can radically change the way data is represented/displayed....but yeah it looks really sweet...and I could not see myself using that for more and a couple of days before going nuts.
Virtual desktops in general specially when applied to dual monitors with some tweaks from what is presented increases my data absorption rate by a large margin actually

Example I keep outlook open on desktop 1 web browser open on desktop 2 and editor with current web based project on desktop three

I switch to desktop 1&2 pair with 1 being in the left and 2 being in the right monitor while working on a mail while looking up specs for said email in the right monitor without tabbing

Now I want to switch over to my project I switch to the 2&3 pair of desktops with web browser (2) in the left screen and current project editor (3) in the right screen either able to see my work in the web browser


Basically take that cube stretch it out and be able to look at any pair of windows at one time.

You get the advantage of dual monitors with the ability to switch work pairs awful fast. I am much faster at this (I am not doing it on my *nix machine yet I am doing it on my windows machine with dual monitors and SharpE gui rather then the windows default)


http://geek.upwardthrust.us/pictures/windows.jpg (big so give me a break)


In the end I think using the cube and being able to treat your desktop as a phisical object will be cool as hell

i had a spherical desktop thingy once... couldn't get on with it, especially for work. too much going on and too complicated to use - a taskbar and 2d interface will do me :)

that said it is cool (just not sure about practicality, especially considering most people don't have 2 screens and computers powerful enough to do that (which means MS won't be interested in developing for the niche market))

Open source has a vastly larger talent pool to draw from, and no one making unreasonable demands of the programmers. I doubt Microsoft will ever outdo an open source project.

iLaff.

Open Source has always been buggier, less well written, and considerably lower quality than Microsoft products.

Wanna know why? Because Microsoft hires the best programmers, testers, and managers, and the rest throw a tantrum and then go work for "open" source.

iLaff.

Open Source has always been buggier, less well written, and considerably lower quality than Microsoft products.

Wanna know why? Because Microsoft hires the best programmers, testers, and managers, and the rest throw a tantrum and then go work for "open" source.
They have the creativity nowadays there is nothing NEW coming out of closed source.

I hope Microsoft gets this through its head when vista goes public, I have been nothing but disappointed in the beta

Microsoft could buy the enviroment

probably a much easier solution for them.

Xgl technology requires good OpenGL performance, along with several unique features of recent 3D cards, and presently these can only be accessed using binary-only (proprietary) kernel modules for ATI and Nvidia cards (technically the drivers use a binary-only component coupled to open source code elsewhere). There are some open source drivers for these cards but they allow 2D only, or allow primitive OpenGL 3D capabilities. Currently this is a deadlock situation because graphics card manufacturers have stated they have no intention to sponsor fully open source drivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xgl#Controversy

A victory over Microsoft, perhaps. But a victory over proprietary development in general? It doesn't seem that way if Open Source is dependent on proprietary technologies.

(I'm not defending the proprietary model, per se; I'm writing this message in Firefox running on Fedora Core 5. But then again, I only use Linux because I hate Windows and Microsoft's general business model: "all your computer are belong to us." If a functional proprietary OS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X) came along, I'd use that instead.)

i had a spherical desktop thingy once... couldn't get on with it, especially for work. too much going on and too complicated to use - a taskbar and 2d interface will do me :)

that said it is cool (just not sure about practicality, especially considering most people don't have 2 screens and computers powerful enough to do that (which means MS won't be interested in developing for the niche market))
The reason I pointed this out was because this was what Microsoft was trying to emulate for vista, but when they re-organized they dropped it as well as all their other cool advances.

Hell their “Most secure operating system ever” has ALREADY been hacked

I despise open source. Why? They have no fucking concept of GUI design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xgl#Controversy

A victory over Microsoft, perhaps. But a victory over proprietary development in general? It doesn't seem that way if Open Source is dependent on proprietary technologies.

(I'm not defending the proprietary model, per se; I'm writing this message in Firefox running on Fedora Core 5. But then again, I only use Linux because I hate Windows and Microsoft's general business model: "all your computer are belong to us." If a functional proprietary OS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X) came along, I'd use that instead.)
And I understand and honestly I am seeing them operating more in tandem rather then a one rules all.

But its just another example of open source pulling its weight doing some rather cool stuff in the process

Yes I am an open source fan, but I don’t begrudge Microsoft selling a product even if I point out its flaws

I despise open source. Why? They have no fucking concept of GUI design.
How so ... I preffer something along the lines of XFCE personally over any windows or mac equivelent

http://geek.upwardthrust.us/pictures/newxfce.jpg

You may be set in your ways but i am a lot faster with thoes other interfaces when I gave them a chanse

So... What good does this Cube environment do? I mean, it looks good, but it doesn't seem to have any real benefits. At best it will slow things down obscenely.

So... What good does this Cube environment do? I mean, it looks good, but it doesn't seem to have any real benefits. At best it will slow things down obscenely.
On single monitor it was just a cool way of dealing with the 4 virtual desktops quickly ... on dual I would prefer to leave mine in flat paired form as explained before

On single monitor it was just a cool way of dealing with the 4 virtual desktops quickly ... on dual I would prefer to leave mine in flat paired form as explained before

I'm really asking if there is any real value to having 4 virtual desktops. Paired browsing makes sense to me, but I can't see a lot of value to multiple desktops at all.

I'm really asking if there is any real value to having 4 virtual desktops. Paired browsing makes sense to me, but I can't see a lot of value to multiple desktops at all.
I use it every single day ... thats why I love that sharpE graphics of the windows box (I linked in thread already) because I can use the virtual desktops on windows

Less at play more at work without moving objects around

But I only found the power in the virtual desktops REALLY when I got the dual monitors

So... What good does this Cube environment do? I mean, it looks good, but it doesn't seem to have any real benefits. At best it will slow things down obscenely.
Multiple desktops.

Unix has had them for years, and they have been shown to greatly increase the amount of shit you can have open. Every desktop has its own taskbar, so it remains uncluttered, even though you have say 15 apps open.


I do not have two moniters to do a dual head setup. Well I do have a second one, but it is 4" smaller than this one. It looks tacky. If I get another moniter somehow, I'd setup a dualhead.

Does this mean you finally got XGL going? And Bag, stop being such a downer. I find non wobbly windows annoying as hell now.

I despise open source. Why? They have no fucking concept of GUI design.
*loves GUI*
http://img348.imageshack.us/img348/2005/screenshotsv4.png

Virtual desktops in general specially when applied to dual monitors with some tweaks from what is presented increases my data absorption rate by a large margin actually

Example I keep outlook open on desktop 1 web browser open on desktop 2 and editor with current web based project on desktop three

I switch to desktop 1&2 pair with 1 being in the left and 2 being in the right monitor while working on a mail while looking up specs for said email in the right monitor without tabbing

Now I want to switch over to my project I switch to the 2&3 pair of desktops with web browser (2) in the left screen and current project editor (3) in the right screen either able to see my work in the web browser


Basically take that cube stretch it out and be able to look at any pair of windows at one time.

You get the advantage of dual monitors with the ability to switch work pairs awful fast. I am much faster at this (I am not doing it on my *nix machine yet I am doing it on my windows machine with dual monitors and SharpE gui rather then the windows default)


http://geek.upwardthrust.us/pictures/windows.jpg (big so give me a break)


In the end I think using the cube and being able to treat your desktop as a phisical object will be cool as hell

Yea Ghods!!! I think I'll stick to alt+tab LOL

I understand the virtual machines etc but at the end of the day you can only take in so much...

Having said that I can see a great use for monitoring..or rather to display data from monitored systems and the like. To get high level views that can then be drilled down....but still one can only take so much...

Mind you when I think about it I do recall back in the day having umpteen boxes each with their own screen (no kvm switches back then!) when doing server/network support....

I'm just getting old I guess LOL :)

Multiple desktops.

Unix has had them for years, and they have been shown to greatly increase the amount of shit you can have open. Every desktop has its own taskbar, so it remains uncluttered, even though you have say 15 apps open.


I do not have two moniters to do a dual head setup. Well I do have a second one, but it is 4" smaller than this one. It looks tacky. If I get another moniter somehow, I'd setup a dualhead.

Does this mean you finally got XGL going? And Bag, stop being such a downer. I find non wobbly windows annoying as hell now.
I gotXGL going yes ... not dual head my card is being bitchy bout it but I am going to try and push an NVIDIA XGL setup rather then my ATI

Thing is that box only has 256 meg of ram but that will get done soon

I gotXGL going yes ... not dual head my card is being bitchy bout it but I am going to try and push an NVIDIA XGL setup rather then my ATI

Thing is that box only has 256 meg of ram but that will get done soon
When you use the cube, does it "push back" to show that you are using the cube?

It does on mine. I should really go into gconf and stop it. It makes it harder to spin the cube while waiting for web pages to load.

Yea Ghods!!! I think I'll stick to alt+tab LOL

I understand the virtual machines etc but at the end of the day you can only take in so much...

Having said that I can see a great use for monitoring..or rather to display data from monitored systems and the like. To get high level views that can then be drilled down....but still one can only take so much...

Mind you when I think about it I do recall back in the day having umpteen boxes each with their own screen (no kvm switches back then!) when doing server/network support....

I'm just getting old I guess LOL :)
I am a lot more efficient this way … I have the hardware its all about getting me the information that I need fast enough that’s the limitation right now

When you use the cube, does it "push back" to show that you are using the cube?

It does on mine. I should really go into gconf and stop it. It makes it harder to spin the cube while waiting for web pages to load.
Yeah default install it did actualy ... if you figure out how to change that let me know lol though I had to give away the machine with XGL on so I got to rebuild that new one

Yeah default install it did actualy ... if you figure out how to change that let me know lol though I had to give away the machine with XGL on so I got to rebuild that new one
I will. The devs like to changeup the default config every couple weeks or so. If you wait a bit and delete its config folder, it'd probably go away.

Look people, do you see all those fancy GUI interfaces? Gnome/KDE and more? Guess where they stole their ideas from? You guessed it! Windows! Mac!

GUI has nothing to do with how shiny the interface looks. It's entirely to do with how functional and easy to use it is. While open source projects can sometimes claim to be functional (often moreso than closed source), by a major factor, open source UI design is confusing, non-standard and frustratingly hard to use.

Here's how you should determine if a GUI is good.

1. Get someone who has never touched a computer in their life to sit in front of the machine. Tell them that they have to figure out how to set up the internet.
2. On windows, you get a friendly setup wizard, which explains in clear steps how to go about the setup proceedure. You might need to provide a CD rom with drivers on it, but chances are, the installation will be fairly simple, even for a new user.
3. On Linux, you're stuck with incomplete, third-party, poorly written documentation on an obscure internet site for your badly written modem drivers (which are written by a fourteen year old, and completely unsupported - sometimes requiring the flashing of the modem firmware to get to work), and given no help whatsoever by the UI. If you ask for help on an internet forum, you're treated as a retarded piece of shit because you aren't able to write your own drivers and/or get their shitty versions working.

Now, let's look at an example that doesn't concern the OS: OpenOffice. Guess where it gets all its GUI paradigms from? Yup. Closed source projects, mainly Microsoft Word. You want to look at an original open source GUI that doesn't copy from closed source models? Fine. Let's look at Blender3D.

http://www.blender.org/cms/typo3temp/pics/3bec4512c9.jpg

Does that look like a simple, clean interface? No. It's an interface designed for techies by techies. Open source utterly fails at UI design unless it is copying it from a closed source model, which have UI experts and research teams who are investigating what makes good UIs work.

Open source is shit, and it will continue to be shit until the zealots recognise that their software license does not automatically mean their software is good.

Open source is shit.
Open source isn't the problem. The problem is that most computer users are dumbasses. Until Windows 95 came along, most people had half a clue about how their machines worked, especially as the manual configuration so despised of Linux, was required for pretty much everything. You couldn't help but learn how your machine worked, because setting it up and tweaking it, was a fairly involved process.

Now look. People expect to assemble half a dozen colour-coded bits, flick a switch, and hey presto, it all works. No decision-making required, and the whole thing can be intuitively controlled with a handful of buttons, off a GUI with a handful of options. But the moment anyone tries to deviate from the script, or something goes wrong, haha, no, deeeniiied!

Way to pander to the lowest common denominator.

Open source isn't shit, users are shit because Microsoft capitulated to sell more copies.

I am a lot more efficient this way … I have the hardware its all about getting me the information that I need fast enough that’s the limitation right now

Direct brain implant! :)

Look people, do you see all those fancy GUI interfaces? Gnome/KDE and more? Guess where they stole their ideas from? You guessed it! Windows! Mac!

GUI has nothing to do with how shiny the interface looks. It's entirely to do with how functional and easy to use it is. While open source projects can sometimes claim to be functional (often moreso than closed source), by a major factor, open source UI design is confusing, non-standard and frustratingly hard to use.

Here's how you should determine if a GUI is good.

1. Get someone who has never touched a computer in their life to sit in front of the machine. Tell them that they have to figure out how to set up the internet.
2. On windows, you get a friendly setup wizard, which explains in clear steps how to go about the setup proceedure. You might need to provide a CD rom with drivers on it, but chances are, the installation will be fairly simple, even for a new user.
3. On Linux, you're stuck with incomplete, third-party, poorly written documentation on an obscure internet site for your badly written modem drivers (which are written by a fourteen year old, and completely unsupported - sometimes requiring the flashing of the modem firmware to get to work), and given no help whatsoever by the UI. If you ask for help on an internet forum, you're treated as a retarded piece of shit because you aren't able to write your own drivers and/or get their shitty versions working.

Now, let's look at an example that doesn't concern the OS: OpenOffice. Guess where it gets all its GUI paradigms from? Yup. Closed source projects, mainly Microsoft Word. You want to look at an original open source GUI that doesn't copy from closed source models? Fine. Let's look at Blender3D.

http://www.blender.org/cms/typo3temp/pics/3bec4512c9.jpg

Does that look like a simple, clean interface? No. It's an interface designed for techies by techies. Open source utterly fails at UI design unless it is copying it from a closed source model, which have UI experts and research teams who are investigating what makes good UIs work.

Open source is shit, and it will continue to be shit until the zealots recognise that their software license does not automatically mean their software is good.
So the core of your argument is to be “good” gui the audience should be designed for beginners?

Personally I find not only functionality but performance upgrades for us “Advanced” users means getting away from the windows model (and a long way from the gnome model)

Open source models like XFCE, or Fluxbox may not work for you in all your mystifying anger but for some of us they are the cleanest best performing option for us. They may not be general public but the are cool to me and fulfill my need better then the windows UI ever has

Direct brain implant! :)
Someday :)

Direct brain implant! :)
NEW!!! From Microsoft - The mindPad!

Now in Beta v0.71 (Latest: boot sector corruption issue fixed)

Someday :)

Picked this up from http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/InfoWar/bio.html

Functional brain implants

The brain is the most advanced organ in the body, and the place where implants can do the most amazing and dangerous things. Functional brain implants makes it possible to change the activity of certain areas. The implants consist of a small receiver loop under the skin of the torso where it can be powered by a battery connected to an induction magnet in the breast pocket, a small microprocessor and a finely branching neurointerface in the brain.

TU biomedical engineers can connect the dedicated microprocessor to a wearable computer system, enabling easy display and control. This kind of neural implants are rare and usually regarded as dangerous, but they have the potential to give the users extra control over their bodies.

Autonomous interface

A neurointerface to the vagus nerve or the brain-stem nuclei regulating the autonomous nervous system. Originally intended for people with disorders such as panic attack disorder, heart rate problems, sudden sweating or certain brain-stem disorders, but some TU people have discovered other uses. The interface can be used to control the visceral responses, both to arouse or calm. For example, it is possible to program heart rate, digestive activity, general bodily arousal level, sweating, blood pressure, bronchial constriction and adrenaline secretion. A correctly programmed interface can be used to control how stress affects the body, override certain reflexes, force a calm state or just give detailed monitoring information to help emotion control.

Reticular activation network

A brain pacemaker inserted into the reticular formation and related networks in the brain-stem. By stimulating it the level of alertness can be increased; the legit use is for treatment of certain forms of coma, but some transhumanists regard it as an excellent alternative to drugs. Some versions also have an inhibitory version, which shuts down awareness.

Septal pacemaker

A device similar to the reticular activation network, intended as a partial cure for Alzheimer damage to the septal region. It is in the experimental stages, due to the problem of addiction: by stimulating the septum motivation can be controlled. The effects are not obviously pleasurable, but if given the choice to activate the device users will do it and rationalize a reason. Some transhumanists think that connected to a wearable this could be a powerful way of controlling one's very motivations, but others point out the severe risks of addiction or mis-programming.

Neurointerface

Many transhumanists dream of being able to interface directly to their computers, gaining direct access to them through their brains. The dream is still infeasible in 2015, but not completely impossible. The neurointerfaces that already exist are getting better, and many TU researchers experiment with using nanotechnology to improve them much further.

A standard brain interface, used for experimental treatment for blindness or severe paralysis, consists of a flexible patch placed on the cortex covered with microelectrodes linked to cultured neuroblasts that grow into the cortex and link up with the neurons already present. They can detect activity quite well, and also stimulate individual cells. Unfortunately the cultured cells tend to connect in a haphazard way, making the signal noisy and diffuse; a lot of research is being done to make them grow to exactly the right cortical layer.

Some prototypes exist where nanodevices insert a thin network of fibers into the brain, connected to a small receiver/transmitter that can communicate with an outside system. These prototypes have so far only been tested on animals, with unclear results. The latest experiments have not suffered from acute brain swelling or other fatal side effects in the test animals and produce what looks like reasonable signals, but it is not clear yet if it is useful for humans other than as a research tool. Still, there are people who might want to take the risk to see if they can use the interface to connect their brains directly to their computers. The software is being developed, and the first human implantation could in principle be done at any time.

Biochemical monitor/injector

One of the most useful implants is the biochemical monitor/injector. The implant contains a biosensor that monitors the chemicals in the bloodstream and releases suitable amounts of one or more drugs. This is a practical way of helping people with diabetes, Parkinson's disease and other diseases requiring a regulated supply of drugs.

The monitor/injector can also be reprogrammed and used for other purposes, like releasing suitable levels of nootropics or growth hormones, or linked to a wearable for software controlled drug release.

NEW!!! From Microsoft - The mindPad!

Now in Beta v0.71 (Latest: boot sector corruption issue fixed)

Ghod no....Not Brain '25 !

Can you imagine doing reg hacks?

hmmmm actually.... :cool:

snip
Yeah I heard about it :) someday I will have one too!

Yeah I heard about it :) someday I will have one too!

I admit I have qualms...I don't fancy getting my brain hacked....nor spammed with porn (you could never ever ride public transport if yer a bloke!) or ads for Viagra!...could you really put up with constant 419'ers having direct access to yer brain? LOL

Look people, do you see all those fancy GUI interfaces? Gnome/KDE and more? Guess where they stole their ideas from?


The Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, just like Microsoft and Apple. (edit: assuming, simply for the sake of argument, that non-physical/non-tangible objects like "ideas" can be "stolen," anyway)

The Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, just like Microsoft and Apple. (edit: assuming, simply for the sake of argument, that non-physical/non-tangible objects like "ideas" can be "stolen," anyway)

You can trace the development of the GUI to Vannevar Bush in the 1940’s and Ivan Sutherland in the 50’s/60’s. Jeff Rankin wrote his paper on WSIWYG paper in 1967.

Open source isn't shit, users are shit because Microsoft capitulated to sell more copies.

Microsoft didn't capitulate to ignorant computer users, as that line of argument assumes that the vast majority of consumers actually want to purchase and use computers. In reality, they do not. They want game, internet, and e-mail appliances; a "microwave" or "toaster" with an ethernet connection, basically. Those of us who want actual computers for the purpose of actual computing are neither more or less intelligent than any other consumer on the market. We simply pursue an entirely different product, and we refuse to come to terms with the fact that the consumer market has left us behind. One cannot truely compare the two types of users as each pursues totally different products in totally different markets.

Although a certain individual segment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X) of said consumer market appears to be coming back; real computing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2Anix) on a everything-needed-and-working-out-of-the-box appliance. Unfortunately, the high price tag means that I don't know for sure how real said computing really is (edit: thus necessitating my remaining on linux, which I would honestly prefer not to do. I'm perfectly happy paying for the service of having a machine that does what I want it to with minimal effort. If that makes me a "shit user" then so be it. I simply have better and more important things to waste my time on.)

You can trace the development of the GUI to Vannevar Bush in the 1940’s and Ivan Sutherland in the 50’s/60’s. Jeff Rankin wrote his paper on WSIWYG paper in 1967.

This is basically my point. Ideas, contrary to what the advocates of proprietary knowledge and intellectual "property" assert, are not developed and "owned" by one or few individuals. To quibble over who "stole" what is simply pointless and silly. Everybody "steals" from everybody as this is how knowledge and ideas are discovered and further developed. The whole concept that ideas can be "stolen" (and should be protected from such) stems from nothing more than anti-competitive and anti-market exploitation of statist forces for the sake of profit (usually, in the "free" market, dressed up in the noble ideas of "property" and protecting the labor of a single "inventor").

This is basically my point. Ideas, contrary to what the advocates of proprietary knowledge and intellectual property assert, are not developed and "owned" by one or few individuals. To quibble over who "stole" what is simply pointless and silly. Everybody "steals" from everybody as this is how knowledge and ideas are discovered and further developed. The whole idea of protecting ideas from being "stolen" stems from nothing more than anti-competitive and anti-market exploitation of statist forces for the sake of profit (usually, in the "free" market, dressed up in the noble ideas of "property" and protecting the labor of the "inventor").

No arguement from me on that score...

/rant....

I blame the MBA's with the view that quick short term profit gain rather than looking at a longterm process is a good thing. (yes this is a bit simplistic as things have changed a hell of a lot)

I have had the misfortune of tangling with MBA's who have no background in IT/CS telling me that we really don't need a support contract with a software vendor because we have our own support staff. That software was SAP.

I nearly....no in fact I did....fell out of my chair.

Yes ITC is there to support the organisation. But ITC is also a hybrid of engineering and service delivery. It is not only service delivery. It is not only engineering. One thing it is....is a evolving system. And change needs to managed to meet the needs of the business as well as ensuring that the longterm implications of change are recognised and understood.

Would a project such as the Hoover Damn (with all its ancillary services) have happened in our current capitalistic system? I doubt it.

I blame the MBA's with the view that quick short term profit gain rather than looking at a longterm process is a good thing.
...
Would a project such as the Hoover Damn (with all its ancillary services) have happened in our current capitalistic system? I doubt it.

The problem isn't capitalism, as intellectual "property" and the assertion that ideas can be "stolen" are both anti-capitalist and throughly socialist concepts.

Ideas (and other non-physical/non-tangible commodities, like software) are not property as they exist in infinity (one can make endless copies without exhausting the original) and can be reproduced at basically no cost. The laws of supply and demand thus set the price of such a commodity at exactly 0. Yes, perhaps it does indeed require a great amount of labor in order to produce the first copy. However, the capitalist system of economics demands that the prices of commodities be based on supply and demand, not on the amount of labor expended, as required by the labor theory of value. I don't care if people want to argue in favor of intellectual "property;" such is their right. I just want them to quit calling themselves capitalists, and use instead the proper label for their ideology: socialism designed to protect the laborer from market competition.

It is especially entertaining to see capitalist libertarians assert the superiority of supply and demand markets and the subjective theory of value, only to immediately turn around and assert the exact opposite, the labor theory of value, the cornerstone of socialist economics, in defense of intellectual property because we must "protect and promote the interests of the inventor in order to assure innovation." That is, when your ass is on the line, I'm a cut-throat competitive capitalist. When my ass is on the line, however, I can't call on the "noble" state and lawyers to protect me fast enough. :rolleyes: :headbang:

The problem isn't capitalism, as intellectual "property" and the assertion that ideas can be "stolen" are both anti-capitalist and throughly socialist concepts.

Ideas (and other non-physical/non-tangible commodities, like software) are not property as they exist in infinity (one can make endless copies without exhausting the original) and can be reproduced at basically no cost. The laws of supply and demand thus set the price of such a commodity at exactly 0. Yes, perhaps it does indeed require a great amount of labor in order to produce the first copy. However, the capitalist system of economics demands that the prices of commodities be based on supply and demand, not on the amount of labor expended, as required by the labor theory of value. I don't care if people want to argue in favor of intellectual "property;" such is their right. I just want them to quit calling themselves capitalists, and use instead the proper label for their ideology: socialism designed to protect the laborer from market competition.

It is especially entertaining to see capitalist libertarians assert the superiority of supply and demand markets and the subjective theory of value, only to immediately turn around and assert the exact opposite, the labor theory of value, the cornerstone of socialist economics, in defense of intellectual property because we must "protect and promote the interests of the inventor in order to assure innovation." That is, when your ass is on the line, I'm a cut-throat competitive capitalist. When my ass is on the line, however, I can't call on the "noble" state and lawyers to protect me fast enough. :rolleyes: :headbang:

Dude...I'm just a ITC geezer...not an intellectual type...I have no idea what you are talking about!

Look people, do you see all those fancy GUI interfaces? Gnome/KDE and more? Guess where they stole their ideas from? You guessed it! Windows! Mac!

GUI has nothing to do with how shiny the interface looks. It's entirely to do with how functional and easy to use it is. While open source projects can sometimes claim to be functional (often moreso than closed source), by a major factor, open source UI design is confusing, non-standard and frustratingly hard to use.

Here's how you should determine if a GUI is good.

1. Get someone who has never touched a computer in their life to sit in front of the machine. Tell them that they have to figure out how to set up the internet.
2. On windows, you get a friendly setup wizard, which explains in clear steps how to go about the setup proceedure. You might need to provide a CD rom with drivers on it, but chances are, the installation will be fairly simple, even for a new user.
3. On Linux, you're stuck with incomplete, third-party, poorly written documentation on an obscure internet site for your badly written modem drivers (which are written by a fourteen year old, and completely unsupported - sometimes requiring the flashing of the modem firmware to get to work), and given no help whatsoever by the UI. If you ask for help on an internet forum, you're treated as a retarded piece of shit because you aren't able to write your own drivers and/or get their shitty versions working.

Now, let's look at an example that doesn't concern the OS: OpenOffice. Guess where it gets all its GUI paradigms from? Yup. Closed source projects, mainly Microsoft Word. You want to look at an original open source GUI that doesn't copy from closed source models? Fine. Let's look at Blender3D.

http://www.blender.org/cms/typo3temp/pics/3bec4512c9.jpg

Does that look like a simple, clean interface? No. It's an interface designed for techies by techies. Open source utterly fails at UI design unless it is copying it from a closed source model, which have UI experts and research teams who are investigating what makes good UIs work.

Open source is shit, and it will continue to be shit until the zealots recognise that their software license does not automatically mean their software is good.
That is were companies like Novell, Red Hat and Linspire come in. They are spending big dollar doing UI research. For example, Novel switched from KDE to GNOME and intemented the slab. Each company spends allot of money on R&D to make their interfaces easier.

How the hell uses modems anymore? Harlesburg. Unless you are using a modem, you won't need to setup your internet. With Windows you will have a disk with drivers to install, and with Mac OS X and Linux they are included in the kernel (well, if they are FOSS for Linux).

Who do you think is using this? Techies. Who are they marketing this to? Techies. Then who do you think the UI's should be designed for: Techies.

NEW!!! From Microsoft - The mindPad!

Now in Beta v0.71 (Latest: boot sector corruption issue fixed)
That'd suck, not being able to boot your brain.:p

That is were companies like Novell, Red Hat and Linspire come in. They are spending big dollar doing UI research. For example, Novel switched from KDE to GNOME and intemented the slab. Each company spends allot of money on R&D to make their interfaces easier.

How the hell uses modems anymore? Harlesburg. Unless you are using a modem, you won't need to setup your internet. With Windows you will have a disk with drivers to install, and with Mac OS X and Linux they are included in the kernel (well, if they are FOSS for Linux).

Who do you think is using this? Techies. Who are they marketing this to? Techies. Then who do you think the UI's should be designed for: Techies.
Exactly the flexability is amazing

If you are a lower end user you go with one that aproxamates the windows/mac standard something along the lines of KDE or GNOME, if you wish to take more advantage of a techi based interface go with XFCE or FluxBox or one of the other light managers whatever suits you.

@Upward Thrust.

Been playing around in gconf-editor for a bit.:fluffle:

So far no solution.:( But I have found some neat features.:)

You can unfold the cube into a strip. This is enabled by default, but it is given the hotkey <Control><Alt>Next, so unless you have enabled those extra mouse buttons you cannot use it. It is in cube-allscreens-options->unfold_cube. I set it to <Control><Alt>Down for now. That may change, as I know you can make the cube rotate up and down, but I cannot think of a good place to put it.

In cube-screen0-options, there are to that are neat. in will make you inside the cube, as you've probably seen. change_viewport_slide will make the desktops be side-by-side instead of on a cube, so when you switch viewports it slides instead of rotates. Not as impressive as rotating, but still worth a look.

If you do not like your scroll wheel rotating your cube, set rotate-screen0-options->rotate_wheelings to 0.

That's all I've found so far.

@Upward Thrust.

Been playing around in gconf for a bit.:fluffle:

So far no solution.:( But I have found some neat features.:)

You can unfold the cube into a strip. This is enabled by default, but it is given the hotkey <Control><Alt>Next, so unless you have enabled those extra mouse buttons you cannot use it. It is in cube-allscreens-options->unfold_cube. I set it to <Control><Alt>Down for now. That may change, as I know you can make the cube rotate up and down, but I cannot think of a good place to put it.

In cube-screen0-options, there are to that are neat. in will make you inside the cube, as you've probably seen. change_viewport_slide will make the desktops be side-by-side instead of on a cube, so when you switch viewports it slides instead of rotates. Not as impressive as rotating, but still worth a look.

That's all I've found so far.


I work with the unfolded bit quite a bit, when I had two network cards it was better cause the virtual desktop was in "pairs"

Now I got to figure out dual head configuration lol but not tonight :)

I figured it out!:D

In rotate-screen0-options, find zoom, and set it to 0.0. Rotate your cube, and you'll love to see that it does not push back anymore!!!1

I figured it out!:D

In rotate-screen0-options, find zoom, and set it to 0.0. Rotate your cube, and you'll love to see that it does not push back anymore!!!1
Makes sense probably going to be awsome once I get a machine going lol

Makes sense probably going to be awsome once I get a machine going lol
What was that about you having to give up your machine?

What was that about you having to give up your machine?
GF needed a better photoshop machine

That machine was a 1.6ghz p4 with a gig of ram and an sapphire ATIi 9600XT

The one I got back from her is a 2.5 ghz p4 but only 256 mb of ram (which I do not have any extra of at this point in time)

So she got that machine (with windows) and I got the one with less ram (they are both mine in reality)

My big beast has driver issues right now (hoping to swap vid cards soon) For some reason I have issues with the x700pro in there and the WM ... so that is a single boot windows right now ...

GF needed a better photoshop machine

That machine was a 1.6ghz p4 with a gig of ram and an sapphire ATIi 9600XT

The one I got back from her is a 2.5 ghz p4 but only 256 mb of ram (which I do not have any extra of at this point in time)

So she got that machine (with windows) and I got the one with less ram (they are both mine in reality)

My big beast has driver issues right now (hoping to swap vid cards soon) For some reason I have issues with the x700pro in there and the WM ... so that is a single boot windows right now ...
*laughs*
Driver issues suck. I'm glad that I do not have to deal with them anymore. ATi' fglrx now works with my X1800, Ubuntu includes madwifi, and Freespire is the only good distro that still uses a kernel too old for my sound.

*laughs*
Driver issues suck. I'm glad that I do not have to deal with them anymore. ATi' fglrx now works with my X1800, Ubuntu includes madwifi, and Freespire is the only good distro that still uses a kernel too old for my sound.
Yup so instead I am dowloading the christian version of ubuntu to try lol

... I like Alt+Tab better... much easier and less raping of my pathetic x850 XT ^.^

... I like Alt+Tab better... much easier and less raping of my pathetic x850 XT ^.^
You kidding with an x850 no problem I was doing it on a 9600xt seamlessly

Oh nice, I was expecting minimums like an x1800 for that kind of stuff :D

But Alt-Tab still works for me, I only have one monitor anyways.

Oh nice, I was expecting minimums like an x1800 for that kind of stuff :D

But Alt-Tab still works for me, I only have one monitor anyways.
I have seen it done on a 9250 alright

9200 is what all I have heard recomended as a minimum

... I like Alt+Tab better... much easier and less raping of my pathetic x850 XT ^.^
In the Linux world, X850's are high end. XGL runs fine until you get down to the level of the Radeon 9200's. Although, that was when XGL was intially released.

Besides, XGL will fix it that Alt+Tab is a nice 3D effect....

Yup so instead I am dowloading the christian version of ubuntu to try lol
From what I've heard, it only has a few new apps installed by default. Like Bible verses!!!!!

In the Linux world, X850's are high end. XGL runs fine until you get down to the level of the Radeon 9200's. Although, that was when XGL was intially released.

Besides, XGL will fix it that Alt+Tab is a nice 3D effect....


From what I've heard, it only has a few new apps installed by default. Like Bible verses!!!!!
I know but I am curious if it has any sweet holy backgrounds (had it started at work but had to come home)


Dont feel like anything hard tonight so just going to get it runnning in a VM to satisfy my curiosity lol

Oh nice, I was expecting minimums like an x1800 for that kind of stuff :D

But Alt-Tab still works for me, I only have one monitor anyways.
Ahaha. X1800 are way beyond most Linuxers. Hell they've only been supported since April, way before XGL's release.

I know but I am curious if it has any sweet holy backgrounds (had it started at work but had to come home)


Dont feel like anything hard tonight so just going to get it runnning in a VM to satisfy my curiosity lol
OSDir (http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=712&slide=4&title=ubuntu+christian+edition+1.0+screenshots)

Check out Fedora 6. That is a holy background. *loves Fedora's art team* Still using Fedora 5 themes and GDM styling.

OSDir (http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=712&slide=4&title=ubuntu+christian+edition+1.0+screenshots)

Check out Fedora 6. That is a holy background. *loves Fedora's art team* Still using Fedora 5 themes and GDM styling.
:) I probably will try them all out *loves VM's*

:) I probably will try them all out *loves VM's*
I was considering installing VM to try Fedora 6 Test 3, and the new Freespire realease. Compile some GNOME on its ass.

Any idea what it is like to install VM on Buntu?

I was considering installing VM to try Fedora 6 Test 3, and the new Freespire realease. Compile some GNOME on its ass.
I can show you easy free way to do it from windows ... I believe both softwares I use are avalible on *nix too

VMXbuilder and VMWare player

Let me look a bit and play with it ... I played around with qemu before but not much

I can show you easy free way to do it from windows ... I believe both softwares I use are avalible on *nix too

VMXbuilder and VMWare player

Let me look a bit and play with it ... I played around with qemu before but not much
I've used the Workstation on Windows. Basically, a suite which has the builder, player, and a few other things in a bloated mess of a program.:)

I've used the suite which is basically the builder, player, and a few other things in a bloated mess of a program.:)
VMX builder is an open source free alternitive to their builder

The only vmware product you actualy use is the player (which is free)

It is TONES better I would ABSOLUTLY recomend geting rid of the builder and just using the new small player

*Considers*

*Considers*
If you want to corner me thank GOD I have heald onto the builder installer for windows cause all the sites I used are down now

So bugg me on aim if you want the windows installer and I will send it to you

Can anyone explain to me just what is so good about all these resource hungry interfaces. They are just interfaces after all. A way to choose what you want to do. The IT world went crazy in about 1995 and started getting the cart before the horse.

I want a computer to run the programs that I need to do my work (or to play a game or two) I do not need the OS and its interface to occupy any significant portion of the machine's resources. Give me a GEM style interface on a multitasking OS and I am happy. Why do you need more?

Can anyone explain to me just what is so good about all these resource hungry interfaces. They are just interfaces after all. A way to choose what you want to do. The IT world went crazy in about 1995 and started getting the cart before the horse.

I want a computer to run the programs that I need to do my work (or to play a game or two) I do not need the OS and its interface to occupy any significant portion of the machine's resources. Give me a GEM style interface on a multitasking OS and I am happy. Why do you need more?
Depends on what I am doing

9/10 of the time on any of my servers I dont even run a gui whatsoever or if I need to something light like XFCE

But depending on the usage some of the advanced features let me interact with a multitude of data faster then anything ... multipul desktops and some of the keying auto placements snap to places all alow me to absorb information faster then ever before ... some of it is for the shiny looks some of it is extreemly usefull

Can anyone explain to me just what is so good about all these resource hungry interfaces. They are just interfaces after all. A way to choose what you want to do. The IT world went crazy in about 1995 and started getting the cart before the horse.

I want a computer to run the programs that I need to do my work (or to play a game or two) I do not need the OS and its interface to occupy any significant portion of the machine's resources. Give me a GEM style interface on a multitasking OS and I am happy. Why do you need more?
Why have a GUI in the first place? If just uses more reasources than nessesary.

A good lean BASH based console (or set of consoles) is all you need to do your work (unless you are a graphics artist, I suppose).

Graphics just makes it easier because our brain is highly visual. And good graphic, are just sweet.

check this one out...

http://www.bestsharing.com/files/ms00170183/BumpTop.wmv.html
http://honeybrown.ca/Pubs/BumpTop.html