NationStates Jolt Archive

Watching the final day of England vs Pakistan earlier, I was struck by the number of Pakistani supporters in the crowd. Now, keeping in mind how far it is for a supporter to come all the way over from Pakistan, it is reasonable to assume that the majority of the teams supporters were English with Pakistani roots.

I believe that this is worrying. While we can of course celebrate diversity and cultural differences it is a matter of importance that people associate with their home nation. If you are English then you are English; not a part time Pakistani. Bring your national characteristics, yes; but integrate them into our society. Do not remain seperate.

This may seem to be a minor and irrelevant point, and indeed it is in relation to sporting events. But what about politics? When there is the risk of conflict between nations, or terrorism originating in unstable regions, where the loyalties of second and third generation immigrants lie is a matter of national security. 7/7 is a perfect example of what can happen to British born people who's loyalties lie overseas.

If you are English, support our boys. If you are Pakistani, then perhaps you should consider whether Britain is the place for you. If your attachment to the homeland of your grandparents is so strong, then perhaps it is there you should be living, not here.

I understand what you are saying, and when I said a similar thing around here when we were having the "day without illegals" or whatever about the people downtown waving Mexican flags, and carrying signs saying "THIS IS OUR COUNTRY, WE WILL PREVAIL" I got called a bigot and a racist....so you know be careful. ;)

however, when I moved to AZ from OK, and the Sooners were playing the Diamondbacks I did wear my OU sweatshirt to the game.........but I guess different states in the same country isn't really the same thing is it?

If you are English, support our boys. If you are Pakistani, then perhaps you should consider whether Britain is the place for you. If your attachment to the homeland of your grandparents is so strong, then perhaps it is there you should be living, not here.


Why the assumption that the immigrants are living in England?

I understand what you are saying, and when I said a similar thing around here when we were having the "day without illegals" or whatever about the people downtown waving Mexican flags, and carrying signs saying "THIS IS OUR COUNTRY, WE WILL PREVAIL" I got called a bigot and a racist....so you know be careful. ;)
I've been called much worse things. :p

however, when I moved to AZ from OK, and the Sooners were playing the Diamondbacks I did wear my OU sweatshirt to the game.........but I guess different states in the same country isn't really the same thing is it?
I can understand why people have an attachment to somewhere they have lived in the past; I, like most people, will continue to support my home team now, probably for the rest of my life. But these are second and third generation people now; people with no connection to another country, who may never have even been there. If these people still feel that their primary loyalty is not to the country in which they were born and raised, that is slightly worrying.

Why the assumption that the immigrants are living in England?
You don't get many French immigrants at the cricket.

You don't get many French immigrants at the cricket.

I meant as opposed to Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland (or, for that matter, the Isle Of Man).

I don't care that the Pakistanis in England support Pakistan against England. Really, do you expect them not to?
If you identify with any country besides your home country you can see what I mean here.
I'll give as an example the political debates over Isreal:
Most supporters of Israel aren't Jewish.
Some are though, and some of those would support Israel in any fight with the US.
Most supporters of Palestine aren't Muslims.
Some are though, and some of those would support Palestine in any fight with the US.

I meant as opposed to Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish.
Because it's the England cricket team. Well, technically England & Wales, so they could be Welsh.

Because it's the England cricket team. Well, technically England & Wales, so they could be Welsh.

Yes, but the supporters of Pakistan could be resident in Scotland or Northern Ireland. Should they still support the English team in your Tebbitlike opinion?

Yes, but the supporters of Pakistan could be resident in Scotland or Northern Ireland. Should they still support the English team in your Tebbitlike opinion?
:rolleyes:

Any Scottish person can support whichever team they decide to, seeing as their team isn't playing.

:rolleyes:

Any Scottish person can support whichever team they decide to, seeing as their team isn't playing.

So, why the assumption that the immigrants supporting Pakistan are English?

*Shrug*

It's no different to all those Manchester United supporters who couldn't mark Manchester on a map. Which team you're supporting's not had any bearing on where you live for national games for long enough; it's not at all surprising that international games are going the same way.

Would you berate a British ex-pat living in Spain for cheering for Spain in an international tournament? What if they were supporting England, Scotland or Wales?

People choose where to live based upon where they think they'll have the best life, not based on whose government policies or sports team they support.

Watching the final day of England vs Pakistan earlier, I was struck by the number of Pakistani supporters in the crowd. Now, keeping in mind how far it is for a supporter to come all the way over from Pakistan, it is reasonable to assume that the majority of the teams supporters were English with Pakistani roots.

I believe that this is worrying. While we can of course celebrate diversity and cultural differences it is a matter of importance that people associate with their home nation. If you are English then you are English; not a part time Pakistani. Bring your national characteristics, yes; but integrate them into our society. Do not remain seperate.

This may seem to be a minor and irrelevant point, and indeed it is in relation to sporting events. But what about politics? When there is the risk of conflict between nations, or terrorism originating in unstable regions, where the loyalties of second and third generation immigrants lie is a matter of national security. 7/7 is a perfect example of what can happen to British born people who's loyalties lie overseas.

If you are English, support our boys. If you are Pakistani, then perhaps you should consider whether Britain is the place for you. If your attachment to the homeland of your grandparents is so strong, then perhaps it is there you should be living, not here.Actually, I'd go so far as to answer the question "Should natives support the home team?" with a definite "NO!"

Yes, but the supporters of Pakistan could be resident in Scotland or Northern Ireland. Should they still support the English team in your Tebbitlike opinion?

Oh, it's fine if those support the Ulster Cricket Team or the All Scotland Cricketeers - IF they can find 'em...

Oh, it's fine if those support the Ulster Cricket Team or the All Scotland Cricketeers - IF they can find 'em...

So it has nothing to do with the sovereignty of different nations, unlike the OP was trying to suggest?

On the note of people not supporting the home team:
In the US, the Cubs and the Sox are both Chicago baseball teams.
The Sox won the world series last year.
Virtually every Cubs fan in Chicago was rooting against the Sox, even though the Sox are much more of a "home team" then whoever it was they were playing.

So it has nothing to do with the sovereignty of different nations, unlike the OP was trying to suggest?
Actually, whether or not the supporters come from Scotland has nothing to do with what the OP suggested. It was specifically talking about English people of Pakistani decent. If they're Scottish or Irish then they can have a cookie and move along; they've nothing to do with the issue.

In the States we have the same problem with American's Vs. Mexicans and the problem is of course naturally stronger along the U.S./Mexico border. Over the past few years we have seen a lot of growing resentment because of buisness that cater to immigrants from south of the border, illegal or otherwise. We have companies that will only hire you if you speak Spanish, it doesn't matter if you speak English or not, there are Spanish T.V. stations, and there is a movement to allowing the Minute Men to snipe illegals comming across the border to do so legally. It causes a lot of problems that people in the States really disapprove of. :gundge:

The fact of the matter is that you can't turn back the clock. Once something has happened all the magic pixie dust in the world isn't going to make it the way things used to be. You have to learn how to turn the situation to your advantage. Let the immigrants have their T.V. stations, their resturants and such. That's additional tax revanue that can be collected. Stiffling growtrh is rarly a good thing. Further more I think that you could tax the so-called miltia goups like the minute men on their activities as well. Put a limit on the number of kills that they get and just like fish say that they have to be over a certain size. That way everybody wins. The illegals get to come into this country with out colliding into a wall :headbang:, the Minute Men get to squeeze in a few 133t h34d5h0t5 :sniper: in and the governement, a.k.a. "The Man" gets to collect addition tax revanue.:cool:

Eveybody Wins!!!:D

They should support whomever the hell they feel like supporting.

They should support whomever the hell they feel like supporting.


That's a good point - and/but also the whole thing.

What if they don't feel like supporting the right team?

Actually, whether or not the supporters come from Scotland has nothing to do with what the OP suggested. It was specifically talking about English people of Pakistani decent. If they're Scottish or Irish then they can have a cookie and move along; they've nothing to do with the issue.

No, I'm asking with regard to those Pakistani immigrants to Scotland who continue to support the Pakistani team. You suggest that having ill-defined foreign sympathies lead to things like the London bombings, I'm still trying to make sense of all this.

No, I'm asking with regard to those Pakistani immigrants to Scotland who continue to support the Pakistani team. You suggest that having ill-defined foreign sympathies lead to things like the London bombings, I'm still trying to make sense of all this.
If they support the Pakistani team when England are playing then there is no problem; the Scots tend not to support England anyway. If they are supporting Pakistan when Scotland are playing, then the question is the same.

Your question is like asking me 'is it wrong to support America in a USA vs Canada game?' If my team isn't playing, I can support whoever I choose to.

No, I'm asking with regard to those Pakistani immigrants to Scotland who continue to support the Pakistani team. You suggest that having ill-defined foreign sympathies lead to things like the London bombings, I'm still trying to make sense of all this.


Joins us again AFTER you have succesfully done so.
Not before.
Ditto for Immigrants ;)

I genuinely believe the evidence demonstrated at Headingly today is concerning. Irrespective of an permutations, it demonstrates that a considerable proportion of the English migrant community, assuming that those present are symptomatic of their community, consider their primary loyalty to be due to their nation of ethnic origin, not residence and, in the case of the multitudes of youths, birth.

Whilst one ought not to pursue excessive inferences from a cricket match, the evident fact is that the ethnic communities hold negligable respect for England as a nation.

What's amazing is that Ny Nordland hasn't postedon on this thread once!

What if they don't feel like supporting the right team?

Right team? It's only a sports game.

If they support the Pakistani team when England are playing then there is no problem; the Scots tend not to support England anyway. If they are supporting Pakistan when Scotland are playing, then the question is the same.

And your justification for this position is what? That the supporters are borderline terrorists?

Right team? It's only a sports game.


And it's only a flag...

Sowwy. If someone's patriotism isn't DEEP enough to support something as shallow as a team, I'm afriad that said patriotism will be even less deep when it comes to more conentious issues.

And your justification for this position is what? That the supporters are borderline terrorists?
:rolleyes:

The question is to do with the worrying problem of people whose loyalties lie overseas.

Whilst one ought not to pursue excessive inferences from a cricket match, the evident fact is that the ethnic communities hold negligable respect for England as a nation.
You can't blame them. I don't hold a whole lot of respect for it any more and my family's about as British as you can get.

Besides, it wasn't loyalty to a different nation that caused the London or Madrid bombings, or New York/Washington hijackings.

And it's only a flag...

Sowwy. If someone's patriotism isn't DEEP enough to support something as shallow as a team, I'm afriad that said patriotism will be even less deep when it comes to more conentious issues.

Well, I don't consider myself patriotic. In fact, the idea of patriotism is a turn-off for me.

....but why is this a problem?

:rolleyes:

The question is to do with the worrying problem of people whose loyalties lie overseas.

And the justification you raised was what? The London bombings, yes? Which were carried out by people whose loyalty lay with no overseas nation, yes? So why drag that into the debate? Now if there was an Al Qaeda football team I could see the connection, but at present, no...

And it's only a flag...

Sowwy. If someone's patriotism isn't DEEP enough to support something as shallow as a team, I'm afriad that said patriotism will be even less deep when it comes to more conentious issues.

What exactly has the UK achieved through patriotism recently?

That's a good point - and/but also the whole thing.

What if they don't feel like supporting the right team?People tend to get mad and shout things about history if they are reminded to cheer for Germany...

You can't blame them. I don't hold a whole lot of respect for it any more and my family's about as British as you can get.

Besides, it wasn't loyalty to a different nation that caused the London or Madrid bombings, or New York/Washington hijackings.

I did not infer that it was. However, loyalty to a different state, notably an Islamic state, does imply tendancies towards the creation of Islamic state.

In regards to blame, no, I suppose I cannot blame for them for having no respect for Britain. It has hardly denigrated itself by welcoming them has it?

However, loyalty to a different state, notably an Islamic state, does imply tendancies towards the creation of Islamic state.

How?

Where would your loyalties lie if work or love took you overseas?

Aha...

Where would your loyalties lie if work or love took you overseas?

Aha...


Ask me. I came here that way.

Where would your loyalties lie if work or love took you overseas?

Aha...

Very different issue entirely. Had you observed the cricket today you may have appreciated why. The majority of "pakistan fans" at Headingly today were, at the oldest, 40, and, for the most part, in their 20's. Thus, given the dynamics of immigration into Britain, we may infer that said "pakistan fans" are British by birth, and exploit the British state, but are educated to consider themselves primarily Pakistani.

Where would your loyalties lie if work or love took you overseas?

Aha...
England.

Who should my children and grandchildren support?

The home team.

Well, I don't consider myself patriotic. In fact, the idea of patriotism is a turn-off for me.

....but why is this a problem?

Because we then lack indication that your heart and soul feel as ours do.

I don't think that the intensity of patriotic display during a sports event has anything to do with allegiance to the 'home' country.

Here in Montreal during the World Cup, everyone was waving their home country's flag with an annoying amount of fervor. Oddly enough, no one suspected our city would descend into nationalist anarchy.

Unless you have someone who is both a sports icon and a national or cultural icon. Sort of what Maurice 'the Rocket' Richard was, and is, to Québec.

England.

Who should my children and grandchildren support?

The home team.Why?

How?

Quite evidently. A choice to actively endorse a nation in a sporting sense, in precedent to the nation of one's birth, given that those "fans" will all be Islamic, ought to imply Islamic sympathies.:rolleyes:

England.

Who should my children and grandchildren support?

The home team.
And if they failed in their Duty to do so, they would be what? Potentially dangerous? Subversive? The problem would be... :confused:

What exactly has the UK achieved through patriotism recently?

Feel Good factor, for one thng.

Without a storny dose of Patriotism, it ain't there.

Why?
Because if that is their home, that is where their loyalties should lie. Why should they support a place they have not ever lived in, just visited?

To be honest, I think there will be a a growing shift in terms of how sport, esp. cricket is supported by pakistani, as well as other communities over the next few years.

With the growing inclusion of sportsmen, such as Monty Panesar and Sajid Mahmood, with whom the communities can relate to, then I personally think that more and more will support England because they have someone to support who represents what they are in england.

Quite evidently. A choice to actively endorse a nation in a sporting sense, in precedent to the nation of one's birth, given that those "fans" will all be Islamic, ought to imply Islamic sympathies.:rolleyes:

The phrase 'in precedent' makes no sense there. 'In preference'?

And if they failed in their Duty to do so, they would be what? Potentially dangerous? Subversive? The problem would be... :confused:
It is not so much 'dangerous' as a concern. If they feel their loyalties lie to another country, then there is an obvious security issue if the two nations ever came into conflict.

People tend to get mad and shout things about history if they are reminded to cheer for Germany...

Indeed? Your footie-supporters didn't seem quite that mad...

What exactly has the UK achieved through patriotism recently?

You didn't watch the Ashes did you?:rolleyes:

Feel Good factor, for one thng.

Without a storny dose of Patriotism, it ain't there.

So patriotism is a good thing because it gives us an intangible emotion which may have no basis in reality?

Because we then lack indication that your heart and soul feel as ours do.

Hmph, well, from my perspective, I don't think i'm missing all that much.

So patriotism is a good thing because it gives us an intangible emotion which may have no basis in reality?


We live by intangible emotions.
Without those, you might as well be a plant.

I think you've just explained why you strike me as an utterly undesirable element. Because you don't feel right.

Hmph, well, from my perspective, I don't think i'm missing all that much.

No doubt, you have your own things to root for.

But lack of equal rooting makes for lack of unity of purpose.

An immigrant moves to the UK or US.

Great!

They have their own culture, religion, etc.

Great!

We get involved in some war, conflict, etc., involving their place of origin. They oppose the war, or oppose how we're doing it, etc.

Great!

They advocate overthrowing the government, killing non-believers, and putting up their native religion as the supreme law of the land.

Fuck them hard, and airdrop them back in their native land without a parachute.

No doubt, you have your own things to root for.

But lack of equal rooting makes for lack of unity of purpose.

If it's a purpose I don't support, then so be it.

We live by intangible emotions.
Without those, you might as well be a plant.

Yes, but the point about patriotism and the feel good effect was that the effect had no real basis in reality: in short your defence for patriotism is that it creates illusions for us.

Because if that is their home, that is where their loyalties should lie. Why should they support a place they have not ever lived in, just visited?"Place" != "Team".

Regarding the OP:

No.

I'm not going to become Australian rather than German. That would be fake and stupid. It only works with second generation immigrants, or people who came here as very little kids.
I try and respect local ways as much as possible (not that they're much different), but the fact of the matter is that I wasn't born here and and I didn't grow up here. My formative phase was for the most part in Germany.
I support the Australian team in many sports, but if they play the Germans, I support the latter.
Indeed, I seem to recall quite a few English people who didn't support the English cricket team either, for many years. At least before the last Ashes series (oooh, I can't wait...Go England! :p ).

Whilst one ought not to pursue excessive inferences from a cricket match, the evident fact is that the ethnic communities hold negligable respect for England as a nation.
Listen:
Nations and nationalism/patriotism was only "invented" in the Industrial Revolution, as society began to change in a way that made previous ways of ruling or identifying people obsolete. Before that things were done either through personal relationships between rulers and the ruled (ie "I'm the feudal overlord, swear allegiance to me"), or through ethnicity.

Then there was the time of the nation, which was essentially the 20th century. Today, the globe is shrinking, information and indeed people travel freely. That trend will only continue. Productive capacity, knowledge and know-how, money...all these things become internationalised. This is the 21st century, and the nation as a concept that holds any importance is on the way out.

Sometimes people feel uncertain about life, and when they feel that they have problems, they (irrationally) often try to find people as much like them as possible to help them. In the 20th century, often (not always) nationality was used as for this imagined community (afterall, in reality we don't often share very much with people from the other side of the country anyways).

What will be used in the 21st century to help people identify themselves? Well, a few things are on the cards right now: Religion, ethnicity, "culture" (probably more relevant would be to think of that as "Urban Youth Culture" rather than for example "Kazakh culture"), wealth and social standing, someone's job...

What you are seeing is nothing but the process of changing from one imagined community to the other. Which will be the final result, I don't know. But I don't think that race or religion ultimately offer the same cohesiveness and the same shared common language and values that something like urban youth culture would have, or certain levels of wealth. The latter are just so much more physical and real.

What exactly has the UK achieved through patriotism recently?

The demise of Robert Kilroy Silk :)

Should Immigrants Support the Home Team?

If they have taken up citizenship then yes.

If not, I don't see any problem.

In this case, many young P***s are born in UK, are Brit citizens but support Pak over UK, ummah over anything else (the latter is more dangerous IMO).

however, when I moved to AZ from OK, and the Sooners were playing the Diamondbacks I did wear my OU sweatshirt to the game.........but I guess different states in the same country isn't really the same thing is it?

No it is not. You must assimilate into Arizona society and cheer for the home team. With all the terrorist stuff that has happened in OK, how do they know you are not going to go all Timothy McVeigh on them? If you are so attached to the state you used to live in, maybe you should just go back there.

Regarding the OP:

No.

I'm not going to become Australian rather than German. That would be fake and stupid. It only works with second generation immigrants, or people who came here as very little kids.
I try and respect local ways as much as possible (not that they're much different), but the fact of the matter is that I wasn't born here and and I didn't grow up here. My formative phase was for the most part in Germany.
I support the Australian team in many sports, but if they play the Germans, I support the latter.

Just like me, except with USA and Germany. WC06? Germany. in WC02, I had a biiiiiiiiiig problem when US played Germany.

People call me unpatriotic, but even they arent supporting the US. typical.

bogmarsh and philosphy.

never ever go to a celtic or hibs game. especially not on the 70's or 80's. :p

:rolleyes:

Any Scottish person can support whichever team they decide to, seeing as their team isn't playing.

Most Scots and Welsh will vocally support any team that plays any sport against England.

Listen:

Sometimes people feel uncertain about life, and when they feel that they have problems, they (irrationally) often try to find people as much like them as possible to help them. In the 20th century, often (not always) nationality was used as for this imagined community (afterall, in reality we don't often share very much with people from the other side of the country anyways).

Not in this case. This is a symptom of a wider problem...refusal to assimilate or even appreciate the host country.

It is fine to stick to your food, dress, arts & entertainment, hanging out with people from your background etc...but the wider problem in this particular group is their insistence in exporting certain values from their home country (misogyny, sharia, bizarre "honor" codes etc..)...it is ok if a person is a temporary immigrant (for economic reasons etc) but it is not ok when a person has taken citizenship and swore loyalty to the crown and then work to undermine the very society which he has taken refuge to.

Like DK said, such people need to be deported to the utopia of their homeplace if they keep bitching about how UK is not their home country.

Oh, it's fine if those support the Ulster Cricket Team or the All Scotland Cricketeers - IF they can find 'em...

Actually, Scotland play in the Minor Counties League of the England and Wales Cricket Board.

I genuinely believe the evidence demonstrated at Headingly today is concerning. Irrespective of an permutations, it demonstrates that a considerable proportion of the English migrant community, assuming that those present are symptomatic of their community, consider their primary loyalty to be due to their nation of ethnic origin, not residence and, in the case of the multitudes of youths, birth.

Whilst one ought not to pursue excessive inferences from a cricket match, the evident fact is that the ethnic communities hold negligable respect for England as a nation.

And where were Monty Panessar and Sajinder Mahmood ethnically from? Hint- both regard themselves as English but Monty is a Sikh of Indian origin and Sajinder is a Muslim from Pakistan origin.

Not in this case. This is a symptom of a wider problem...refusal to assimilate or even appreciate the host country.


Integration is always a better option than assimilation. It allows immigrants to bring the richness of their culture with them and add that to their new country, which can only enrich their new country. Assimilation breeds discontent and inevitably fails.

England.

Who should my children and grandchildren support?

The home team.

From my (Indian, Hindu) ex-neighbour. A top bloke too.

"I am brown but I am British.
I was born in Gujerat, but I am British.
Britain has given me a life which I would never have got in India.
My son, he wears an England top and supports England at the cricket and football.
If he wants to join the police or army when he grows up I will support him as he will be ensuring the freedoms that allowed me to come here and have a good life! Here I can go to the Mandir (temple) when I want and not be persecuted for it."

I had long conversations with him and he sees that as an immigrant, he has affection for India but his home, but his life and his families future is all here.

Not altogether different from a person moving from one city to another and rooting for the sports teams of the original city.

The ill-considered OP is making a mountain of a molehill.

Just like me, except with USA and Germany.
I think that only really works if you are an immigrant. I think you were born and grew up in the States, didn't you?

In that case it's just sports, really.

Not in this case. This is a symptom of a wider problem...refusal to assimilate or even appreciate the host country.
Which is hardly new either. I'm not assimilating, and often (my mum moreso) we don't appreciate Australia as much as we probably should, in many issues.
I don't know whether you ever had the "pleasure" of reading Mein Kampf, but it was the same with Hitler in Austria. If you're a first generation immigrant (not that Hitler was, but he sorta pretended to be a foreigner anyways) a certain aspect of that will always remain. Especially if you start to build an imaginary version of your home in your head, where everything is perfect and all the bad stuff gets glossed over.

That changes after a generation or two, as long as the kids of those immigrants get enough contact with those outside the immigrant community. And that's where I think the crux of the problem may lie, because most of the sort of problem areas we hear so much about arise because it's immigrants among themselves, and neither institutions nor people on either side make the efforts required. And poor economic situations don't exactly help either.

...but it is not ok when a person has taken citizenship and swore loyalty to the crown and then work to undermine the very society which he has taken refuge to.
"Sworn loyalty to the crown." Lol. :p

No, seriously. I agree that any society has certain basic values that should be respected by anyone who wants to live in it. That's what we have laws for...and importantly laws should regulate what people do, not what people think.

Someone might believe in god's total supremacy and in Sharia law and all that. That's fine with me. Just as long as they don't start breaking the real laws of the place.

This is no different to, for example Urban Ghetto culture. In that sort of context, stealing from people and stabbing dudes you don't like might be the accepted way to do things. Or the KKK might think it's cool to lynch black people. I think it's stupid, but they can believe whatever they want.

It's when they actually go out and stab or lynch people that the police better be after them.

Same here: I don't accept things that are obviously crimes being committed behind a defense of "it's my culture". But as long as no crimes actually are being committed, I don't have a problem with anyone.

People choose where to live based upon where they think they'll have the best life, not based on whose government policies or sports team they support.
But that's the whole point of the topic and much of the problem.. :|

Hmm... my parents are immigrants, and I support Germany and Ukraine over Australia.

No it is not. You must assimilate into Arizona society and cheer for the home team. With all the terrorist stuff that has happened in OK, how do they know you are not going to go all Timothy McVeigh on them? If you are so attached to the state you used to live in, maybe you should just go back there.
but McVeigh wasn't from Oklahoma...........

Where would your loyalties lie if work or love took you overseas?

Aha...

Love took me overseas. Every time England play Brazil (and lose) I support England. My son however, who was born in England but only remembers living in Brazil, supports Brazil.

This strikes me as being right. It is his country, part of his personal identity is being Brazilian.

Now as to the Pakistanis in England supporting Pakistan, well of course they will for as long as people identify them as being Pakistani rather than English. It becomes part of their identity. However, if you look at the crowd for an England football match you will see plenty of English supporters who are descendents of immigrants of all types, from the sub continent, Africa, the far east etc. These are all English and they think of themselves as such.

Watching the final day of England vs Pakistan earlier, I was struck by the number of Pakistani supporters in the crowd. Now, keeping in mind how far it is for a supporter to come all the way over from Pakistan, it is reasonable to assume that the majority of the teams supporters were English with Pakistani roots.

I believe that this is worrying. While we can of course celebrate diversity and cultural differences it is a matter of importance that people associate with their home nation. If you are English then you are English; not a part time Pakistani. Bring your national characteristics, yes; but integrate them into our society. Do not remain seperate.

This may seem to be a minor and irrelevant point, and indeed it is in relation to sporting events. But what about politics? When there is the risk of conflict between nations, or terrorism originating in unstable regions, where the loyalties of second and third generation immigrants lie is a matter of national security. 7/7 is a perfect example of what can happen to British born people who's loyalties lie overseas.

If you are English, support our boys. If you are Pakistani, then perhaps you should consider whether Britain is the place for you. If your attachment to the homeland of your grandparents is so strong, then perhaps it is there you should be living, not here.


jeez....one could argue you are a xenophobe..but i digress...if you love your country so much...stay the fuck there!
and puhleeze dont come here...suck our system of welfare dry and then root for your home team....you get a big bugger off from me.
root for the people that are feeding you,and medically taking care of yours...or go the hell home and make your shithole right...harsh...but so what..truth hurts at times.

That changes after a generation or two, as long as the kids of those immigrants get enough contact with those outside the immigrant community. And that's where I think the crux of the problem may lie, because most of the sort of problem areas we hear so much about arise because it's immigrants among themselves, and neither institutions nor people on either side make the efforts required. And poor economic situations don't exactly help either.

I believe that the situation in UK is unique in the sense that first generation immigrant P***s have integrated in UK more than their kids born and brought up as British citizens.

Mohammed Bilal (suicide bombing in Kashmir), Omar Sheikh (Daniel Pearl), Shehzad Tanveer (London bombings) etc were all young British citizens of P*** descent...born and brought up in Britain. Hizbut Tahrir has huge following in this group.

We do not hear of 40 year and above (first gen immigrants) Brit-P*** religious fanatics. Go figure.

For ex, see this from one such immigrant (from India, but still this ex holds IMHO)

http://www.coxwashington.com/news/content/reporters/stories/BC_BRITAIN_CURRYKING_ADV23_COX.html
Sir Gulam Noon, born in India and knighted in Britain, is rich and famous. He feels quite at home in Britain. And he has a harsh message for fellow Muslims who do not: Get out.

"We need to take to heart the Prophet's injunction to treat our neighbors graciously," he wrote in a recent newspaper essay. "In the UK context this means recognizing we are relative newcomers to a community with a long tradition of liberal democracy.

"If immigrants to Britain do not like that, the answer is simple," he continued. "Get out. Go back to wherever you regard as your own country and leave us in peace."
..
In an interview, Noon became passionate in defending his remarks.

"No society is perfect," he said, in answer to allegations of racism, but the problems should be solved by democracy rather than bombs.

"Nobody has come here at the invitation of the queen and nobody has come here at the invitation of the prime minister," he said, his voice rising. "If you don't like it, if you think it's unfair, either go back to wherever you come from or migrate somewhere else."