NationStates Jolt Archive

Would you compromise your morals if you believed that there might be a slight chance that you might change your mind about them at some point in the future?

I ask this because I may have a pair of decisions to make which I find to be morally unacceptable. I don't qualify for the grants that I got last year for college, and it looks as though I'd have to take out loans. I find this to be morally unacceptable because I believe that education should be free and that loans should be interest-free. However, there is a slight chance I may change my mind on this, and the loans would be a good way to start credit as I have none.
I don't bring this specific example up because I want you to comment on the specific example, as I'm sure that most of you wouldn't have a problem with paying, with interest, for education, but rather to discuss the idea of betraying one's principles, whatever they may be, in case one changes them later.

To some extents yes.

Would you compromise your morals if you believed that there might be a slight chance that you might change your mind about them at some point in the future?
No. I would not compromise my morals for that reason.

Go for it, Jello.

If all else fails, just blame it on me.

It might be free, but it ain't.
And it would be a rotten shame if you were to miss next year because of some green little papers.

You can always say that that hoary old reactionary Bogmarsh talked you into it.

are you sure you can't work your way through college? I just ask because I am anti-loan (not because I think education should be free, but because I am anti-oweing other people money)

are you sure you can't work your way through college? I just ask because I am anti-loan (not because I think education should be free, but because I am anti-oweing other people money)It's conceivable that I might be able to pay the loan off before interest starts to accrue, but I have to pay for the classes I'm taking before I start them.

It's conceivable that I might be able to pay the loan off before interest starts to accrue, but I have to pay for the classes I'm taking before I start them.
well, maybe you should take a year off and work like heck and then try to go to college?

I have a friend who did that, she worked from summer to fall (or in your case fall to summer) at like 60 hours a week, put everything she could back, and paid for her first few classes with that $$ all the while still working while taking those classes and putting money back for her next class.

If you have to take out a loan, you should try to pay it down as much as you can while you are going to school, it will keep you from oweing so much when the interest starts.

Is there any way your parents can help you?

Is there any way your parents can help you?There's a possibility that I could get money from someone else, yes, but it isn't definite, and I should begin the loan application sooner rather than later.

There's a possibility that I could get money from someone else, yes, but it isn't definite, and I should begin the loan application sooner rather than later.
yeah, go ahead and apply, but run around like crazy trying to make sure you don't need it.

how much is your college per semester? I know some are pretty expensive.

around here it's like 3K a semester plus books, which makes it pretty easy to cover if you can live at home.

There's a possibility that I could get money from someone else, yes, but it isn't definite, and I should begin the loan application sooner rather than later.

There's always the Army. They provide money for college.

There's a possibility that I could get money from someone else, yes, but it isn't definite, and I should begin the loan application sooner rather than later.

What I'm going to say will sound churlish - but I don't mean it churlish.

Are you waiting for us to talk you into doing it?




If you're throwing away a human life in deference to a human principle, you ought to rethink the value you put on your moral principle.

If you're throwing away a human life in deference to a human principle, you ought to rethink the value you put on your moral principle.

Let me see if I got this straight.

If I shoot someone (throw away a human life) in deference to the principle of self-defense and self-preservation you're saying I ought to rethink that moral principle?

No, not in all cases do you rethink moral principles for that reason.

Let me see if I got this straight.

If I shoot someone (throw away a human life) in deference to the principle of self-defense and self-preservation you're saying I ought to rethink that moral principle?

No, not in all cases do you rethink moral principles for that reason.

Those two aint principles, they're hard-wiring.

yeah, go ahead and apply, but run around like crazy trying to make sure you don't need it.

how much is your college per semester? I know some are pretty expensive.

around here it's like 3K a semester plus books, which makes it pretty easy to cover if you can live at home.Well, this one isn't that much, but I'm planning on transferring to a more expensive one at some point; I'd almost definitely have to take out loans at that point.

There's always the Army. They provide money for college.Lol. True, but I think that would compromise a different principle of mine.

What I'm going to say will sound churlish - but I don't mean it churlish.

Are you waiting for us to talk you into doing it?

If you're throwing away a human life in deference to a human principle, you ought to rethink the value you put on your moral principle.Well, it is possible that someone would come up with a good argument for or against, but that wasn't the main point. I thought the idea of someone compromising their morals because of a potential change in the future, and compromising them now would help with that possible future change would make an interesting topic...at least it seemed that way in my head...lol.

SNIP

Well, it is possible that someone would come up with a good argument for or against, but that wasn't the main point. I thought the idea of someone compromising their morals because of a potential change in the future, and compromising them now would help with that possible future change would make an interesting topic...at least it seemed that way in my head...lol.

Son, that mind of yours - and developing it - is worth a lot more than maintaining a principle of which you concede it ain't written in stone by the finger of your Creator ( in whom you don't believe anyway. ).

:fluffle:

So go for it - and don't listen to voices that tell you not to.
Not unless you want to lay in bed sleepless, at night, sometime when you're 35 and wondering about the couldabeens, dammit!

Would you compromise your morals if you believed that there might be a slight chance that you might change your mind about them at some point in the future?
I would say, don't compromise on your ethical beliefs. Then again, I'm unemployed at the moment because I was concerned about the ethics of my previous employer.

People do what they have to do Jello. Do what you can to put yourself through school. It's not your fault you were born into the capatilistic society you despise so much. Do what you can to put yourself on top and do what you can to change the system from there.

Because not going to school would be much worse.

I only have one morale and its too make sure everyone is happy and not just me

*sigh* I hate myself (and I don’t think I could bring myself to break it unless its by accident)

I compromised my morals back in '98 for a Klondike Bar, so I have none left to compromise.

I compromised my morals back in '98 for a Klondike Bar, so I have none left to compromise.

Really? What did you do (oo-oo) for a Klondike Bar?

Really? What did you do (oo-oo) for a Klondike Bar?

I set grandma on fire. But, hey, it was the 90s.

Morals....

...that's one of those wall paintings, right?

I set grandma on fire. But, hey, it was the 90s.
*sings*
your grandma and my grandma sitting by the fire
my grandma tells your grandma.........

oh, wait, nevermind.

*sings*
your grandma and my grandma sitting by the fire
my grandma tells your grandma.........

oh, wait, nevermind.

YAY! :D

Would you compromise your morals if you believed that there might be a slight chance that you might change your mind about them at some point in the future?

I ask this because I may have a pair of decisions to make which I find to be morally unacceptable. I don't qualify for the grants that I got last year for college, and it looks as though I'd have to take out loans. I find this to be morally unacceptable because I believe that education should be free and that loans should be interest-free. However, there is a slight chance I may change my mind on this, and the loans would be a good way to start credit as I have none.
I don't bring this specific example up because I want you to comment on the specific example, as I'm sure that most of you wouldn't have a problem with paying, with interest, for education, but rather to discuss the idea of betraying one's principles, whatever they may be, in case one changes them later.


Dont get a loan. That would be knuckling under and selling your morals to those bastards who have money and steadfastly refuse to just hand it over to you.

Since you have failed to earn scholarships which pay the school to educate you, and the school steadfastly refuses to stop charging students for their education this leaves only one common solution to this common educational dilemna.

Get a (GASP) job and earn for your last year of schooling. It'll be more valued by you in the future. I know I know gainful employment sounds like a rash and positively bourgeois imposition to put a person through when by all that is right a person should be given education etc. Not to mention how utterly degrading and demeaning it must seem to be told to do unpleasant tasks by someone and then do the unpleasant tasks merely because they will give money for doing so.

I suppose if a job just isnt for you then you might try the loan then move away to another country after you graduate in order to not let them crush your moral of refusing to pay interest on money loaned to you.

What's so wrong about oweing money or charging interest on loans? As long as your debt is manageable and the interest is reasonable, debt can be a very useful tool. In this case, for example, it would allow you to get an education and earn more money. Even if you got a job now, it would probably earn less than a job you could get after your degree.

Just make sure you are not getting too deep into debt and try to get the best rates you can and you'll do fine.

I'd say go for it.
Mathematical proof of said in style of Pascal's Wager:
If you take the loan and don't discard your principles on it, then you have gotten college for guilt and so you have a minor gain.
If you take the loan and do discard your principles on it, you have college for nothing (I'm not counting the cost of the loan in this) and so you have a major gain.
If you don't take the loan and don't discard your principles on it, you have missed the guilt but now don't have college and so you have a minor loss.
If you don't take the loan and do discard your principles on it then you have forgone college for no reason and so have a major loss.
And so, it would be best to take the loan.

What's so wrong about oweing money or charging interest on loans?

Nothing. It's every American's god-given right to die in as much debt as possible.

Interest on loans (usery) is against some religions, though.

Get a (GASP) job and earn for your last year of schooling. It'll be more valued by you in the future. I know I know gainful employment sounds like a rash and positively bourgeois imposition to put a person through when by all that is right a person should be given education etc. Not to mention how utterly degrading and demeaning it must seem to be told to do unpleasant tasks by someone and then do the unpleasant tasks merely because they will give money for doing so.Oh, I have a job, my employer just doesn't see fit to give me enough money to where I can save enough money to pay for school within the next couple of weeks. Possibly in six months or a year, but I'd like to start this semester.

i compromised my principles in my first 2 years of uni by sponging off my parents. but then i got a job and i feel much better about myself even though my studies are suffering. so i reckon it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. i also buy cheap clothes from shops that probably get all their clothes made in sweat shops because i can't afford anything more despite the fact i am disgusted that sweatshops exist. i do buy some of my clothes from charity shops but there's only so much that charity shops can provide.

so yeh, but mostly because i'm lazy.

Would you compromise your morals if you believed that there might be a slight chance that you might change your mind about them at some point in the future?

I ask this because I may have a pair of decisions to make which I find to be morally unacceptable. I don't qualify for the grants that I got last year for college, and it looks as though I'd have to take out loans. I find this to be morally unacceptable because I believe that education should be free and that loans should be interest-free. However, there is a slight chance I may change my mind on this, and the loans would be a good way to start credit as I have none.
I don't bring this specific example up because I want you to comment on the specific example, as I'm sure that most of you wouldn't have a problem with paying, with interest, for education, but rather to discuss the idea of betraying one's principles, whatever they may be, in case one changes them later.

First of all, please be aware that your "free" education isn't really free, someone, somewhere, will pay for it - most likely taxpayers. So, is it moral for you to ask for someone to give you something that is costing others money (teachers have to be paid, classrooms have to be built, none of this happens for nothing).

Secondly, When you borrow money, the lender is taking a risk on whether you will pay it back or not. By charging interest, he's mitigating that risk somewhat. Additionally, most lenders who are financing student loans are using money that belongs to someone else - usually people's savings accounts (where did you think the interest on savings accounts came from, this isn't a gift from the bank, it's payment for using their money). So you want to use other people's money for your own purposes and not pay them for the use of it. Most interest on student loans is reasonable and not usurious, unlike interest on credit cards (incidentally, the money backing credit cards comes from the same place as other loans - people's savings).
When you start thinking about "moral stances," think about whose money you're using and whether you have the right to use it without giving them some sort of recompense.

It would be nice if everything could be free, but even life isn't free, and before you start thinking about it in terms of dollars, consider this, your parents are paying for you, not only in dollars, but in worry, self-sacrifice, etc. Not all payment is in dollars.

I'd say go for it.
Mathematical proof of said in style of Pascal's Wager:

I don't think you want to style anything after Pascal's wager.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probabilistic_risk_assessment

Apply for the loan and pay for your education if those are required for you to be where you want/need to be.

You have no moral dilemma here at all.

Until YOU charge interest for a loan, or until YOU charge for education, you are not compromising your morals.

It is immoral to rape, it is NOT immoral to BE raped.
(The analogy is kinda out there, but it does emphasize my point)

Morals don't and shouldn't change.

It is immoral to rape, it is NOT immoral to BE raped.
(The analogy is kinda out there, but it does emphasize my point)

Unless you want to consider paying for school (not that someone wouldn't) being raped by The Man. Then it's closer.

Jello: If you'd like I could just convince you that there's nothing wrong with taking loans to pay for your education.

For starters, you have to pay for your education either way. The fact that you are considering taking out a loan has nothing to do with your belief that education should be free. If you were really making a stand about that, you would refuse to do anything, work, mooch off parents, get a loan, that would result in you paying for your education.

We all compromise our morals. Morals conflict.

Do you believe in honesty? Do you believe in compassion?

What are you going to tell your wife when she's 6 months pregnant and asks "do I look fat in this?"

Do you believe that all life is precious and that people have the right to their own medical decisions?

Anyone who gets through life without compromising their morals doesn't have a complete set of them.

My morals tend to change, though some stay the same.

First of all, please be aware that your "free" education isn't really free, someone, somewhere, will pay for it - most likely taxpayers. So, is it moral for you to ask for someone to give you something that is costing others money (teachers have to be paid, classrooms have to be built, none of this happens for nothing).Yes, as theoretically I would get the education and then a higher-paying job, which would allow me to pay more taxes. An investment on the part of the government, in other words.

For starters, you have to pay for your education either way. The fact that you are considering taking out a loan has nothing to do with your belief that education should be free. If you were really making a stand about that, you would refuse to do anything, work, mooch off parents, get a loan, that would result in you paying for your education.Well, the alternative is not going to college, but you're right with the rest of what you said.

Apply for the loan and pay for your education if those are required for you to be where you want/need to be.

You have no moral dilemma here at all.

Until YOU charge interest for a loan, or until YOU charge for education, you are not compromising your morals.

...

It wasn't until I read this that I saw how Jello has this twisted.

Jello, you're stressing about the principle you have a choice about (taking a loan) while accepting a situation which is against another principle (the right to free education.) You've already made the hard decision, and you want that piece of paper.
If you'd got the grant, someone or some institution was going to pay for your education. You've already compromised that principle.

The opposition to interest on loans, is a situation where you have choices. Borrow money, against your principles, or work until you can afford the course outright.

If it didn't involve some sacrifice, some self-restriction, it wouldn't be a principle, huh?
And when it's really beyond one's power to influence the outcome, it stops being a point of principle, too. To be really cynical: we apply principles when self-interest isn't sufficiently clear to make a decision.
You're stressing the loan thing, because the choice is all yours, and you aren't sure what's in your best interest.

If you take the loan, but don't complete the course, or get a bad result, you'll regret it.
If you don't, and find your career blocked by a lack of qualifications, you'll regret that.
But if you're really sure it's what you want to do, and you'll be able to pay it back after you finish, you'll think "that was a wise compromise."
And you can lend money at no interest to someone else you see in the same situation, if you still feel that charging interest is wrong.

I voted "I compromise my strong moral positions," btw. I'm not proud of that, it's just so.

To be really cynical: we apply principles when self-interest isn't sufficiently clear to make a decision.

Beautifully put.


I voted "I compromise my strong moral positions," btw. I'm not proud of that, it's just so.
To be honest, I don't know that I've ever been in a position where I really wanted to do something that would have required me to compromise my strong moral positions. Maybe that says something about my strong moral positions...?

It wasn't until I read this that I saw how Jello has this twisted.

Jello, you're stressing about the principle you have a choice about (taking a loan) while accepting a situation which is against another principle (the right to free education.) You've already made the hard decision, and you want that piece of paper.
If you'd got the grant, someone or some institution was going to pay for your education. You've already compromised that principle.The idea of getting a free education isn't compromised when someone else pays for it, as long as I don't pay for it, for the reasons I noted three posts up.

The idea of getting a free education isn't compromised when someone else pays for it, as long as I don't pay for it, for the reasons I noted three posts up.

The money was going to be paid to send someone to college. Therefore not your responsibility.
But if you borrow it, earn it or steal it (I'm guessing that robbing banks is against your principles too ;) ) and then spend it on an education, you're supporting the system of paying for qualifications.


It makes sense. But it's not a purely principled decision.

Let me explain how I compromised my own principles on this very matter. I attended university (we have no college in Australia, uni comes right after HS) in the early '80's. It was provided as a free education to anyone who completed HS with a sufficiently high mark, though some uni's and some courses required a very high mark. I got into science with 50 points to spare (out of 500).
My father supported me through those two years (I'm low maintenance, tho.) Then, I lost interest in the course, and the degree. Having passed second year, I couldn't be bothered with another year for a Bachelor of Science.

We no longer have free uni education in Australia. We have a very generous loan scheme, run by the government, to pay the fees. Being one of the many who took up a university education because I didn't know what else to do, I feel that I contributed to the demise of free tertiary education. In a small way, but on the level of morals: I said I believed in it, but my actions said otherwise. I betrayed a principle I held dear, and it's one of the one's you mentioned.

I believed in the principle of free education. I would go around telling everyone how the world would be a better place if everyone had a tertiary education, how everyone would be better citizens for having more book-learning. I no longer believe that, because I threw away that privelege when I had it. My morals have altered to fit my actions, as I'm afraid everyone's do.

I'm sorry that the OP has logged off. I meant to offer sincere advice, but I understand that my own experience does not make his decisions easier.

...

To be honest, I don't know that I've ever been in a position where I really wanted to do something that would have required me to compromise my strong moral positions. Maybe that says something about my strong moral positions...?

Or about your life :). You really don't need to go out looking for trouble. Like the transitory particles in a theoretical vacuum, it's there.

In the case of my own education, it was some years later that I could see it as a compromise of my moral position. I began to regret the choice, and to weaken the principle, until one day I realized that a major decision in my life had violated a principle I'd held.
(I still believe in education, btw. I have complicated ideas about rights to higher education, and about qualifications vs. competence. )

I would that wisdom was more immediate, but I welcome it anyway. To think my own morals immutable and perfect would be to think they are beyond my reason, and all moral grief I suffer is in vain, since my mind and my experiences cannot change them.
When moral decisions cease to hurt, cease to strike any chord of regret or doubt within you, you have stopped changing. And stopped being moral -- rather, moralizing. Prescribing morals to others, but immune to them yourself.

(Think, DM. Please, think. Write your last post down, tiny, and paste it on the face of your wristwatch. Read it several times a day, in different places and different times, not just as a pithy rejoiner. It is pure and plain ... is it true?)

Well, the alternative is not going to college, but you're right with the rest of what you said.
I was assuming you had already ruled that out. After all, if you don't have an education, people are more likely to think you're just a crazy person when you publicly advocate a revolution.

I'm sorry that the OP has logged off. I meant to offer sincere advice, but I understand that my own experience does not make his decisions easier.I thank you for the advice, as well as the advice of everyone else.

I was assuming you had already ruled that out. Well, for the most part I have, but still... :)

After all, if you don't have an education, people are more likely to think you're just a crazy person when you publicly advocate a revolution.Lol. Yeah, I suppose I do need to further my education to further flesh out my ideas.

... After all, if you don't have an education, people are more likely to think you're just a crazy person when you publicly advocate a revolution.
Lol. Yeah, I suppose I do need to further my education to further flesh out my ideas.

There's a disconnect there.
Ragbralbur means "people will consider your qualifications before taking your revolutionary stuff seriously"
'N Jello replies: "I want education to intellectually strengthen my ideas. Make them stronger."

I wrote a long analysis. But wtf, ask a graduate. There's a few here.

There's a disconnect there.
Ragbralbur means "people will consider your qualifications before taking your revolutionary stuff seriously"
'N Jello replies: "I want education to intellectually strengthen my ideas. Make them stronger."Well, I suppose they'll consider my qualifications because they'll assume I don't know what I'm talking about. I want to make them stronger so I will know what I'm talking about and have a degree to help prove it. It isn't the exact same thing he said, that's true.

I read your analysis, and it was interesting. Do you think you would have been better off today if you had completed your education?

Of course I would, and not just if I thought I’d have a different opinion later, but if it was simply convenient to do so. There are others willing to do the same and I refuse to be handicapped.

There's a disconnect there.
Ragbralbur means "people will consider your qualifications before taking your revolutionary stuff seriously"
'N Jello replies: "I want education to intellectually strengthen my ideas. Make them stronger."
The difference between a renowned neo-Marxist thinker and the man on the corner with the tin foil hat is usually a Sociology degree.

...in my humble opinion...

Morals don't and shouldn't change.

Maybe they shouldnt but morals can change and most certainly have changed.
Morals and charity are both wonderful things for those who can afford them. Anybody who tells you different just hasnt been in a tight enough spot for a long enough time to know better.

The difference between a renowned neo-Marxist thinker and the man on the corner with the tin foil hat is usually a Sociology degree.

...in my humble opinion...I dunno, I think someone on the streetcorner raving about the invisible hand wouldn't be taken too seriously. :D

I dunno, I think someone on the streetcorner raving about the invisible hand wouldn't be taken too seriously. :D


Clotheth maketh the manneth.

In a proper 3-piece suit, even a mad raver can get an audience.

Check: Geraldo...