NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm serious, what do you think is wrong with Islam?

Sharia's law, honour killings, terrorists, extremists, preachers etc etc

Don't get me started.

Don't get me started.

Let it aaaaaalllllllllll out DK

Sharia's law, honour killings, terrorists, extremists, preachers etc etc

Honour killings, terrorists, extremists and preachers work just as well without Islam.

Honour killings, terrorists, extremists and preachers work just as well without Islam.

Prob with that is, that there's about zero honour killings without Islam.

And it's strange, how they're always together, wot?

Honour killings, terrorists, extremists and preachers work just as well without islam.

Thats true, they are wrongs in many societys, communitys and religions.

Nothing. There is, however, a lot wrong with many of the people who believe in Islam.

They're convinced that Islam is god's one plan for humanity, and when they see that the closer a nation is to being a very strict Islamic nation the poorer and more backward it becomes while "heathen" nations that allow such abominations as gays, liquor and Baywatch prosper they assume it's because those nations are somehow keeping Islam down. Their natural reaction to this is to blow up a few civilians in those "heathen" nations and start wars that they can't win.

Prob with that is, that there's about zero honour killings without Islam.

Really? No one of another religion has ever killed someone over similar infractions? For instance, there was no rule in the OT that ordered a woman who had committed adultery to be killed?

I'm serious, what do you think is wrong with Islam?

Same with every other religion - it exists.

Prob with that is, that there's about zero honour killings without Islam.


I think some non-Islamic eastern Europeans practiced honor killings in the 19th century.. I know that a few were executed by Roy Bean at least.

Really? No one of another religion has ever killed someone over similar infractions? For instance, there was no rule in the OT that ordered a woman who had committed adultery to be killed?

We're talking in modern times, Sherlock.

Can you name a modern government that allows Christian (or Judaic) laws to stone someone to death for adultery?

Get a grip - your comparison falls flat.

I wouldn't say there is anything wrong with Islam there is something wrong with religious extremism maybe but I’ve never heard of a Muslim KKK

Oddly Jihad usually means conflict within ones self unlike lets say Crusade which usually has something to do with either violent attacks on something you don’t like usually with extermination in mind or a battle against an evil

Nothing is wrong with Islam.

They just happen to be a young and still-vibrant religion in an era when religion, as a whole, is becoming less and less relevant. Virtually all of the other religions are either moribund, or so splintered as to have little or no power to influence events on the large scale.

Worse, theirs is the primary religion in an area that has a tremendous dichotomy of wealth and political power. Those who are wealthy and powerful and those with not even enough to send the eldest son to school for an education are side-by-side.

Add to this the fact that many of the mid-east states are playing the game of "The Outside Threat" to pacify their populations, or at least keep their ire from turning on their rulers, and you have a society ripe for a Crusade, Jihad, whatever.

As soon as the oil runs out, just watch so many of these countries implode from their own stresses...

Really? No one of another religion has ever killed someone over similar infractions? For instance, there was no rule in the OT that ordered a woman who had committed adultery to be killed?

You don't even need religion for honour killings. Back in the old days, it was commonplace here, and the mafia still does it.

Really? No one of another religion has ever killed someone over similar infractions? For instance, there was no rule in the OT that ordered a woman who had committed adultery to be killed?

*shrug* Take number of honour killings by jews per year
Divide by number of jews world-wide

Call this HKJ

Take number of honour killings by muslims per year
Divide by number of muslims world wide

Call this HKM

Would (HKM) - (HKJ) be positive or negative?


Sorry DemPub. Your argument about the other feller ( even IF it were based on a correct assumption ) is so much dust in the wind.

Cultural brainwashing is what's wrong with Religion. Seeking to use that brainwashing to serve a specific cultural body is what's wrong with the individual Religions.

Nothing is wrong with islam..just the nitwits who interpret it and those that confuse the religion with local tradition .

you can just as easily ask whats wrong with christianity .

Political dissent is suppressed, innocent people are executed regularly, the purchase of alcohol is outlawed, where religious extremism and bigotry reigns, men are obliged to wear stupid hats and their women, who are second class citizens, are forced to wear ridiculous, inappropriate clothing.

or is that Texas im thinking of? :p

The same thing that's wrong with Christianity.

Too many who are more interested in strict adherence to an old fairy tale than in the lesson it was supposed to teach.

Nothing is wrong with islam..just the nitwits who interpret it and those that confuse the religion with local tradition .

you can just as easily ask whats wrong with christianity .


Check the frontpage..... ;)

The same thing that's wrong with Christianity.

Too many who are more interested in strict adherence to an old fairy tale than in the lesson it was supposed to teach.



hey that was a great answer....STOP THAT !!! you will spoil it for everyone else:D

The same thing that's wrong with Christianity.

Too many who are more interested in strict adherence to an old fairy tale than in the lesson it was supposed to teach.

Actually, there's a substantial difference in the level of violence associated with the belief in old fairy tales.

Just compare the number of conflicts and attacks related to extremist Islamic beliefs, and the number of conflicts and attacks related to extremist Christian beliefs.

IMHO, Islam has every other belief system today (including Communism) beaten hands down in the violence and murder department.

you can just as easily ask whats wrong with christianity .

there already is a "whats wrong with christianity" thread

Prob with that is, that there's about zero honour killings without Islam.

Never been to Africa? Or Ghettos of US cities?

Prob with that is, that there's about zero honour killings without Islam.

Hi, my name is Crusades, I dont believe we have met.

Actually, there's a substantial difference in the level of violence associated with the belief in old fairy tales.

Just compare the number of conflicts and attacks related to extremist Islamic beliefs, and the number of conflicts and attacks related to extremist Christian beliefs.

IMHO, Islam has every other belief system today (including Communism) beaten hands down in the violence and murder department.

Christianity doesn't get off that easy just because we've stopped them from murdering recently. Given the chance they'd go apeshit crazy on us again.

IMHO, Islam has every other belief system today (including Communism) beaten hands down in the violence and murder department.

Islam does not compare to the elimination of entire civilizations by Pizarro and Cortez in the name of Christianity.

But I am sure you will spin these conquests in some way to show that they deserved it.

Christianity doesn't get off that easy just because we've stopped them from murdering recently. Given the chance they'd go apeshit crazy on us again.

No, it's unlikely because Christianity went through the Reformation, and has embraced a lot of secular thought.

They're nowhere near as crazy as most of Islam is today.

Let it aaaaaalllllllllll out DK
No, seriously, don't. The last thread he did that in led to more forum bans than any other.

No, seriously, don't. The last thread he did that in led to more forum bans than any other.
Don't worry, I'm not going to take the flamebait.

Hi, my name is Crusades, I dont believe we have met.

Hi, my name is the 3rd Millenium.
I'm thinking you're some 700 years out of relevance.

w/s
JP Rourke.

PS: Peace Kills.

No, it's unlikely because Christianity went through the Reformation, and has embraced a lot of secular thought.

Yeah like gay marriage.

Oh wait...

They're nowhere near as crazy as most of Islam is today.

Islam is a relatively young religion that has seen alot of persecution.

And who set Islam back?

Christians.

Learning flourished in Muslim countries at a time when the Christian church severely limited thought (you know, the sun moving around the earth and stuff). Also, the atrocities committed by Christians during the crusades are still a source of anger among many Muslims to this day.

Hi, my name is the 3rd Millenium.
I'm thinking you're some 700 years out of relevance.

w/s
JP Rourke.

PS: Peace Kills.

So in 700 years, when you continue your anti-Muslim sentiment, I better hear you say the same thing about Islam.

Yeah like gay marriage.

Oh wait...



Islam is a relatively young religion that has seen alot of persecution.

And who set Islam back?

Christians.

Learning flourished in Muslim countries at a time when the Christian church severely limited thought (you know, the sun moving around the earth and stuff). Also, the atrocities committed by Christians during the crusades are still a source of anger among many Muslims to this day.

Yeah, that part where the Arabs ( muslims ) reduced the population of Egypt from 30 million to 3 million ( between 642AD and the napoleonic adventures ) really was the highlight of persecution of muslims, right?

Yeah like gay marriage.

Oh wait...

Islam is a relatively young religion that has seen alot of persecution.

And who set Islam back?

Christians.

Learning flourished in Muslim countries at a time when the Christian church severely limited thought (you know, the sun moving around the earth and stuff). Also, the atrocities committed by Christians during the crusades are still a source of anger among many Muslims to this day.

Yes, as we all know, Japan managed in 40 years to pull itself from the 16th Century to the 20th Century - all on its own initiative - and become a modern nation. Even when oppressed by the US.

But, Muslims have to blame someone other than their backwards view of the world, and their complete and utter denigration of science (which is mystifying, considering their earlier embrace of it). They couldn't even figure out how to make a gun-type HEU warhead, and had to have Chinese scientists come and explain how - something that most graduate students in US physics classes can figure out without a calculator.

I believe we're lucky that their system of belief has held them back so hard and so mercilessly. Otherwise, there would only be vestigial remnants of humanity on this planet.

We're talking in modern times, Sherlock.

Are we? I thought we were talking about religion, which has existed for all time.

Can you name a modern government that allows Christian (or Judaic) laws to stone someone to death for adultery?

No, but I can name plenty that did when Christianity and Judaism were at the same age as Islam is now.

Get a grip - your comparison falls flat.

Not really.

So in 700 years, when you continue your anti-Muslim sentiment, I better hear you say the same thing about Islam.


Ask me after I've reincarnated, 700 years from now.

Yeah like gay marriage.

Oh wait...


I'm in a congregation of born-again Pentacostals with many fully accepted gays, lesbians, and bisexuals (myself included).

You were saying?

the list is two long.

Are we? I thought we were talking about religion, which has existed for all time.



No, but I can name plenty that did when Christianity and Judaism were at the same age as Islam is now.



Not really.

Sowwy. We're talking about Islam - now, and not 700 years ago.

I'm serious, what do you think is wrong with Islam?


Nothing is wrong with Islam. The problem is western society.

I'm serious, what do you think is wrong with Islam?

There is nothing wrong with Islam itself. The problem lies in the people and self-proclaimed followers who do not understand it.

No, it's unlikely because Christianity went through the Reformation, and has embraced a lot of secular thought.

They're nowhere near as crazy as most of Islam is today.


DK why do you say " most " of Islam ?

A top Saudi Sunni cleric whose ideas inspired Osama bin Laden issued a religious edict Saturday disavowing the Shiite guerrilla group Hezbollah.

Hezbollah, which translates as "the party of God," is actually "the party of the devil," said Sheik Safar al-Hawali.

"Don't pray for Hezbollah," he said in the fatwa posted on his Web site.

The edict reflects the historical stand of strict Wahhabi doctrine viewing Shiite Muslims as heretics, and follows a similar fatwa from another popular Saudi cleric, Sheik Abdullah bin Jibreen, not to support Hezbollah.

But across the Arab world, other leaders have implored Muslims to put aside differences to support the fight against Israel. And there have been daily demonstrations in support of Hezbollah around the region, including in predominantly Sunni and generally pro-Western countries such as Jordan.


http://www.forbes.com/business/services/feeds/ap/2006/08/05/ap2929780.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/04/world/middleeast/04muslims.html?ref=middleeast

Saudi fatwa: Don’t support Hizbullah



Leading Wahhabi cleric in Saudi Arabia issues scathing fatwa against Hizbullah, declares it against Muslim Sharia law to support, join, or even pray for terror group; 'our advice to Sunnis is to denounce them, shun those who join them to show their hostility to Islam, to Muslims,' he rules
Ynet



A leading Wahhabi cleric in Saudi Arabia has issued a scathing fatwa against Hizbullah — the latest in a series of condemnations from the usually supportive Arab world, Fox News reported.




Sheik Abdullah bin Jabreen declares it against Muslim Sharia law to support, join, or even pray for the terror group, writing, "our advice to the Sunnis is to denounce them and shun those who join them to show their hostility to Islam and to the Muslims," the report said.



The New York Sun reports that the fatwa also condemns Iran for funding and supporting Hezbollah to further what Jabreen called its imperial ambitions.



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3279310,00.html



Karim Eslahy has posted a link to photos of Sunday’s demonstration against terrorism organized by Egyptian bloggers. We’re still trying to confirm how many people attended, but Karim reports: “Very small turnout and the cops made them leave but proportionally significant coverage nonetheless.”

Attendees included The Big Pharaoh, Sandmonkey, Highlander, and Mindbleed.

The protest was the maiden activity of a new organization, Pray 4 Peace, which Karim started because he says he is sick of the cycle of violence in which everybody takes sides and obsesses over who started what. He writes:

I no longer care who started what. I only care how it ends.

If enough of us can get together, shed our differences, and unite in the face of violence we can make a difference.



http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2005/07/24/egyptian-bloggers-against-terrorism/


Background Information on Foreign Terrorist Organizations
Released by the Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism
October 8, 1999

Compiled every 2 years



Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Armed Islamic Group (GIA)
Aum Shinriykyo
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)
Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group, IG)
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
Hizballah (Party of God)
Japanese Red Army (JRA)
al-Jihad
Kach
Kahane Chai
Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK)
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam (LTTE)
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK, MKO, NCR, and many others)
National Liberation Army (ELN)
Palestine Islamic Jihad-Shaqaqi Faction (PIJ)
Palestine Liberation Front-Abu Abbas Faction (PLF)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)
al-Qa'ida
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)
Revolutionary Organization 17 November (17 November)
Revolutionary People's Liberation Army/Front (DHKP/C)
Revolutionary People's Struggle (ELA)
Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso, SL)
Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA)
Definition of Terrorist Activity Used in These Designations




http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/rpt/fto/2801.htm

Yeah like gay marriage.

Oh wait...



Islam is a relatively young religion that has seen alot of persecution.

And who set Islam back?

Christians.

Learning flourished in Muslim countries at a time when the Christian church severely limited thought (you know, the sun moving around the earth and stuff). Also, the atrocities committed by Christians during the crusades are still a source of anger among many Muslims to this day.
Christians didn't hold Islam back. Islam just didn't progress while Europe did. That's partly because Europe limited the power of religion and modernized government, science, trade and the military while Islam ignored what those European barbarians were up to. They already had god's own plan for success, Islam. They're still stubbornly sticking to the failed Islamic culture and are still failing to progress. No surprise there.

You know, I'm just comparing the first couple of pages of this thread, and the first couple of pages of the Christianity thread, and this isn't going very well at all. :(

And who set Islam back?

Christians.

Learning flourished in Muslim countries at a time when the Christian church severely limited thought (you know, the sun moving around the earth and stuff). Also, the atrocities committed by Christians during the crusades are still a source of anger among many Muslims to this day.


Don't forget the mongol sacking of Baghdad were they burnt down the grand Library, effectively Anihilating 900 years of learning and written thought in a twenty-minute destruction orgy

and the collapse of the Ottoman empire

Sowwy. We're talking about Islam - now, and not 700 years ago.

So you ignore history just so you can be bigotted? Gotcha!

Two main problems, really. Their extremists are too numerous and too active, and the Middle East at least never went through the Enlightenment. However, as for the central tenets of the religion, they are no worse than Christianity or Judaism (in fact they're the same).

You know, I'm just comparing the first couple of pages of this thread, and the first couple of pages of the Christianity thread, and this isn't going very well at all. :(

You think maybe there is a bit of a double standard problem?

So you ignore history just so you can be bigotted? Gotcha!


Callling names?

I can play that too: sick bag of islamophile suck.

Don't forget the mongol sacking of Baghdad were they burnt down the grand Library, effectively Anihilating 900 years of learning and written thought in a twenty-minute destruction orgy

and the collapse of the Ottoman empire

Actually, before the burning, Chinese scholars entered the library and TOOK everything except copies of the Koran.

They burned those. Took the rest.

You know, I'm just comparing the first couple of pages of this thread, and the first couple of pages of the Christianity thread, and this isn't going very well at all. :(
Well, I believe both threads are pure trolling.

It's like inviting people to say how much a particular religion sucks.

You think maybe there is a bit of a double standard problem?
Dude, totally. :eek:

People start discussing Christianity and it's all philosophy, to what extent any belief is credible, to what extent some part of the Bible is folklore or explicit instruction, and whether or not contemporary attitudes to faith are healthy.

People start discussing Islam, and they can't get beyond demonising its followers.

It's a pretty pathetic sight to see when you aren't really participating but reading and comparing the two groups' apparent debating skillsets.

Well, I believe both threads are pure trolling.

It's like inviting people to say how much a particular religion sucks.


With the little problem that some folks in high places ARE concerned about protecting one of 'em - and are not above calling the critics of that religion racist.

Actually, before the burning, Chinese scholars entered the library and TOOK everything except copies of the Koran.

They burned those. Took the rest.

??? source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baghdad_%281258%29

Christians didn't hold Islam back. Islam just didn't progress while Europe did. That's partly because Europe limited the power of religion and modernized government, science, trade and the military while Islam ignored what those European barbarians were up to. They already had god's own plan for success, Islam. They're still stubbornly sticking to the failed Islamic culture and are still failing to progress. No surprise there.

First:

The first-order answer is poverty and lack of education: Almost half of
Arabic-speaking women are illiterate.

But the Arab world used to be the most literate part of the planet; what
went wrong? Tyranny and economic failure, obviously. But why is tyranny such
a problem in the Arab world? That brings us to the nub of the matter.

In a speech in November, 2003, President George W. Bush revisited his
familiar refrain about how the West has to remake the Arab world in its own
image in order to stop the terrorism: "Sixty years of Western nations
excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did
nothing to make us safe ... because in the long run, stability cannot be
purchased at the expense of liberty" - as if the Arab world had wilfully
chosen to be ruled by these corrupt and incompetent tyrannies.

http://www.mail-archive.com/pen-l@galaxy.csuchico.edu/msg91951.html

Now, this attitude that our Allmighty Leader has is the main reason why Islam has been failing to progress. Look at the history of the arab world. It has been under control of some sort of empire, be it British, Ottoman, what have you.



Following World War I, Britain sub-divided the old Ottoman province of Syria, and created the Kingdom of Jordan. They installed the Hashemite ruling family in power.
bullet

France carved Lebanon out of Syria as an attempt to assure that a majority Maronite Christian state would control much of the formerly Syrian coastline. This was a recipe for disaster as the country's minority Muslim population gradually became dominant.
bullet

Britain imposed a Hashemite monarchy on Iraq and gave the Sunni Muslim minority population control of the country.

Just leave them alone already.

"Half a Million" Mosques Protest Terror in Bangladesh

Moderate Muslim clerics in about half a million mosques across Bangladesh on Friday preached that suicide bombers are the enemy of Islam.

You've gotta love that...

Bangladeshis shout slogans and march through a street during a rally condemning the recent spate of bomb attacks in the country, in Dhaka, Bangladesh, Friday, Dec. 9, 2005. Police questioned eight suspects Friday after a suicide bomber blew himself up on a crowded street, killing himself and six others in the latest attack blamed on extremists wanting to create an Islamic state. (AP Photo/Pavel Rahman)

Moderate Clerics across Bangladesh gave sermons against the recent terror attacks that have left 21 people dead in the last two weeks:


Moderate clerics in about half a million mosques across Bangladesh on Friday addressed worshippers by decrying a wave of bomb attacks carried out by suspected Islamic militants.

"Those who are shedding blood of innocent people in the name of establishing Islamic rule are actually bringing shame on Islam," said Maulana Obaidul Huq, the Khatib (chief cleric) of Baitul Mukarram mosque, the biggest national mosque at the heart of the capital Dhaka.

Huq told about eight thousand worshippers, gathered at the mosque for sabbatical Jumma prayers, to help the security forces capture the fugitive leaders of the militants.
"Islam prohibits suicide bombings. These bombers are enemies of Islam," the chief cleric at the Baitul Mukarram national mosque in Dhaka , Obaidul Haq, told worshippers. "It is a duty for all Muslims to stand up against those who are killing people in the name of Islam," he said.


http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/12/half-million-mosques-protest-terror-in.html

Well, I believe both threads are pure trolling.

It's like inviting people to say how much a particular religion sucks.

And I am here to explain the good, which EVERYONE, including the religions followers, should concentrate on.

Same thing that is wrong with any other religion … it is unfounded conjecture that usually has what I find a silly amount required of you for providing nothing really

Islam is a religion of peace. The terrorist bastards over in the Mid-East have a warped view of Islam. However, can you blame them?


They do what they do not because they are bloodthirsty maniacs with no conscience, but because they truly believe that theirs is the only way to get their views across, because we don't listen to them. We crap on them all the time, with our Israel At All Costs! foreign policies.


Islam itself has nothing to do with this though. Its merely a rallying cry that Muslims can identify with.

??? source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baghdad_%281258%29
The Devil's Horsemen: The Mongol Invasion of Europe (Hardcover)
by James Chambers

The middle section of the book is about the siege and sack of Baghdad in 1254. In detail.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=495155

Dude, totally. :eek:

People start discussing Christianity and it's all philosophy, to what extent any belief is credible, to what extent some part of the Bible is folklore or explicit instruction, and whether or not contemporary attitudes to faith are healthy.

People start discussing Islam, and they can't get beyond demonising its followers.

It's a pretty pathetic sight to see when you aren't really participating but reading and comparing the two groups' apparent debating skillsets.

Bulldust.
That thread about christianity IS bashing.
Though I can't help thinking that folks like you like it.

The problem with islam today IS what its followers are doing.

I'm inviting you to buy a copy of The Trouble with Islam Today.
(www.muslim-refusenik.com)

The girl who wrote it ( a muslim herself ) has some harsh things to say about those western apologists who demand that NO criticism be levelled against the followers of islam.

My own take on all this historicle relevance stuff is to remember that among poor people who don't have a proper education, eg: the inhabitants of most Muslim theocracies, any time beyond your grandparents memory is, in your perspective, about the same time ago. That's why there is so little extremism among literate, numeric Muslims in western countries.

Islam itself has nothing to do with this though. Its merely a rallying cry that Muslims can identify with.

I agree. The people have been shit on for far too long, and Islam is just a way to provide strength to fight back.

This is just a double thread, Christianity and Islam are practically the same thing!!!

The girl who wrote it ( a muslim herself ) has some harsh things to say about those western apologists who demand that NO criticism be levelled against the followers of islam.

So lets criticize them more, Im sure that will make them less angry :rolleyes:

I agree. The people have been shit on for far too long, and Islam is just a way to provide strength to fight back.

Historically, Saladin revived the term Jihad as a rallying cry for Muslims during the Crusades. Jihad had meant struggle, and was recoined to mean a Defense of Islam.

This is just a double thread, Christianity and Islam are practically the same thing!!!

Very true. There are a couple differences, but they are very similar.

Only real difference is that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of God, and to be respected, but he was not God's son.


EDIT: And Muhammed is Allah's final prophet of course. But there is somewhere mentioned in the Bible, I believe, that there will be another Prophet. I can't remember where, but I heard that somewhere...

Very true. There are a couple differences, but they are very similar.

Only real difference is that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of God, and to be respected, but he was not God's son.

Yup... and the Bible and Koran are like the same but with differen't characters. They both teach good morals, and they are both fine religions. It's the people that twist and manipulate them to declare what it says and doesn't say.

Guys, we don't need to start attacking each other for our beliefs, which is going to happen like it did in the other thread. These should be locked, we have nothing more we need to say.

Very true. There are a couple differences, but they are very similar.

Only real difference is that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of God, and to be respected, but he was not God's son.


Bulldust. Either Jesus speaks the truth, and he's the son of God, and not a prophet. Or he's lying - and therefore no prophet either.

Crappy argument brought up by the peace at any price party.

I agree. The people have been shit on for far too long, and Islam is just a way to provide strength to fight back.

Ah, so in Iran, the students turned in their physics professor to a Revolutionary Guards tribunal, who shot him outside the classroom, for teaching the concept of non-deterministic behavior (a blasphemous, yet valid physics concept).

They seem to spend a lot of time shitting on each other, stifling their own intelligence.

Islam is a relatively young religion that has seen alot of persecution.

If we are going to speak in that line, then Islam is the last religion that can complain about persecution, what with their track record of invasion and killings it imposed on pre-islamic Egypt and northern Africa (coptics, berbers..), Persians and Hindus etc...

look up some interesting islamic characters such as Ghazni, Ghori, Timur, Aurangzeb etc all of whom committed mass murder in the name of islam.


And who set Islam back?


Duh. Muslims.

This inability to instrospect and accept criticisms from both within the ranks and outside is what is perpetuating what is rotten in islam.

Duh. Muslims.

This inability to instrospect and accept criticisms from both within the ranks and outside is what is perpetuating what is rotten in islam.

Exactly. It's called "stagnation". Or, "rot".

Naipaul covers this rather well.

I would also point out that if every Jew (and for that matter, every Christian, atheist, and Hindu) were to disappear from the Earth in an instant, the Muslims would fight a nuclear war between Sunni and Shia (and possibly even more fractured than that simple split).

Bulldust.
That thread about christianity IS bashing.
Though I can't help thinking that folks like you like it.

The problem with islam today IS what its followers are doing.
The problem with these debates is this...

When people debate Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc, although there will always be a few people waving their "OMG religion sucks the big oneoneone!!" placards, there will always be quite a number of people with something intelligent to say, with some positive personal experience to share, and there is every possibility that even a trivial point will be made eloquently.

When people debate Islam, it's a mob attack, without philosophical insight, without personal experience, few people bothering writing in full flowing sentences with a clear beginning and end. I find it immensely annoying when people quote from holy books, but even that would raise the standard. It's just snipe, snipe, snipe, omg they kill women in rituals or wtf. Just snippets selectively remembered from the news.

I don't particularly like any of it, but I cannot help but observe that in non-Islam religious debates, at least a few people have a clue what they are talking about. No-one in Islam threads does. If people had the humility to recognise the limits of their knowledge, we wouldn't even have them.

Exactly. It's called "stagnation". Or, "rot".

Naipaul covers this rather well.

I would also point out that if every Jew (and for that matter, every Christian, atheist, and Hindu) were to disappear from the Earth in an instant, the Muslims would fight a nuclear war between Sunni and Shia (and possibly even more fractured than that simple split).

Its a bit more complicated than that. Most of the terrorists are Sufis. Though they claim to be Sunni or Shi'ite


EDIT: For those who don't know what a Sufi is, its a Muslim who believes firmly that all non-Muslims are heretics, and must be eliminated.

Historically, Saladin revived the term Jihad as a rallying cry for Muslims during the Crusades. Jihad had meant struggle, and was recoined to mean a Defense of Islam.

And just to enforce your point, Jihad according to Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad)

When people debate Islam, it's a mob attack, without philosophical insight, without personal experience, to recognise the limits of their knowledge, we wouldn't even have them.


Many of my close friends are Muslims. They invited me to come to Tehran with them over the summer and to Mecca once. I've read some of the Qu'ran and studied Islam for a significant amount of time. I have personal experiance.

First:



http://www.mail-archive.com/pen-l@galaxy.csuchico.edu/msg91951.html

Now, this attitude that our Allmighty Leader has is the main reason why Islam has been failing to progress. Look at the history of the arab world. It has been under control of some sort of empire, be it British, Ottoman, what have you.



Just leave them alone already.
I'm all for leaving them alone. I would love to see the USA develop alternatives to oil and be able to cut all ties with Arab and Persian countries.

Islam does not compare to the elimination of entire civilizations by Pizarro and Cortez in the name of Christianity.

Persians, indigeneous civs/cultures of north Africa, Byzantine....

I'm all for leaving them alone. I would love to see the USA develop alternatives to oil and be able to cut all ties with Arab and Persian countries.
That I agree with ... too many sides doing fucked up things with the money america sinks into the area

Personaly I have no problem with pure humanitarian aid and such but too much free cash

Its a bit more complicated than that. Most of the terrorists are Sufis. Though they claim to be Sunni or Shi'ite

they follow whahabism dont they ? Except for Hez...they are shiites against the Israeli state being in existance .


The Wahhabi Movement, Eighteenth Century Arabia









Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703-1792) joined forces in 1744 with a tribal chief, Muhammad Ibn Saud, to lead a militant reform movement in Arabia. Although known to us today as the "Wahhabi" movement, they called themselves Muwahidun: "those who advocate oneness," i.e. strict monotheists based on the Islamic doctrine of Tawhid which Abd al-Wahhab understood not merely as the "oneness" of God, but, the exclusiveness of the One God. Adherents of the movement also called themselves followers of al-salaf ("the pious ancestors"), a reference to the early companions of the Prophet Muhammad.

Influenced by the thought of medieval theologian Ibn Taymiyya, the Wahhabis practice a form of legalism somewhat resembling the Hanbali School of jurisprudence. An innovation of theirs, however, is the exclusion of the normal Islamic practice of ijma ("consensus") as the basis of Islamic Sharia law.

Wahhabis in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries went on an uncompromising campaign against Sufis, Shiites, and all others deemed unfaithful to the Wahhabis' austere interpretation of the sunna ("custom") of the Prophet Muhammad. The ways of Muhammad and his community at Medina were the only acceptable models for the Wahhabis, and, all Muslims, in their view, should be compelled to follow them. Many practices of Muslims who came after the Prophet were labeled bida'a, "objectionable innovations." At first, these included the building of minarets (acceptable to Wahhabis today) and the use of funeral markers. Wahhabi zealots even tried to destroy the tomb of the Prophet in Medina and were narrowly prevented from doing so through the intervention of King Abd al-Aziz al-Saud. Religious police, called mutawi'oon ("enforcers of obedience") were responsible for maintaining Wahhabi moral order. Today, Wahhabi standards have moderated somewhat from what they were, but the mutawi'oon remained a pillar of the religious Saudi establishment in the twentieth and early twenty-first centuries.
etc.

http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/wahhabi_movement.htm


Get your sects straight ! :D

Many of my close friends are Muslims. They invited me to come to Tehran with them over the summer and to Mecca once. I've read some of the Qu'ran and studied Islam for a significant amount of time. I have personal experiance.

As a non-muslim you are not allowed to set foot in Mecca. Either you are lying or your friends are ignorant about their own rules.

Many of my close friends are Muslims. They invited me to come to Tehran with them over the summer and to Mecca once. I've read some of the Qu'ran and studied Islam for a significant amount of time. I have personal experiance.
If you're telling the truth, would be great to hear more from guys like you, then. Would be great to hear less from people living in their multimedia cocoons, wondering why the hell their enemy of the year won't modernise.

Another good source...

Taleban version

There are some similarities between the Saudi interpretation of Islam and that of the ruling Taleban movement in Afghanistan.

The Taleban, too, represent an unusually strict form of Sunni Islam - and restrictions on women, for example, are even tighter than in Saudi Arabia.

But the Taleban are not Wahhabis.

They belong to what is known as the Deobandi movement, named after the small town of Deoband in the Indian Himalayas.

It was here that the movement was founded, in the 1860s, during the period of British rule in India.

Over time, the movement has become a broad umbrella, including in its ranks Muslims who wish to remain aloof from politics - and others, like the Taleban, who are politically militant.

It would be wrong to see either Bin Laden or the Taleban as typical of modern Sunni movements.

They represent a radical fringe, rather than the Sunni mainstream.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1571144.stm

Its a bit more complicated than that. Most of the terrorists are Sufis. Though they claim to be Sunni or Shi'ite


EDIT: For those who don't know what a Sufi is, its a Muslim who believes firmly that all non-Muslims are heretics, and must be eliminated.
I think you may be confused. Sufis are simply a more mystical branch of Islam. Ever see the dervishes who whirl about in a trance in an attempt to be closer to god? Those are Sufi. Most of the problems come from Sunnis of the deobandi or wahabi schools of thought or from Shiite terrorists under control of Iran.

If you're telling the truth, would be great to hear more from guys like you, then. Would be great to hear less from people living in their multimedia cocoons, wondering why the hell their enemy of the year won't modernise.


Yup, I blame a lot of the prejudice on Media who just love to scare the wits out of people. If you tell someone that a cat got stuck on a power-pole and was saved, their like "ho-hum i'm gonna go make a sammich" but if you tell them theres a massive jihadi terrorist cell network operating in YOUR town ready to detonate their nuclear suicide vests, eliminating the entire western world, their a bit more apt to stick around and watch

Heres what I dont get:

Sept 11th, supposedly done by Muslims, everyone hates Islam.
OK City bombing, done by Christians (Republicans no less), noone cared.

Heres what I dont get:

Sept 11th, supposedly done by Muslims, everyone hates Islam.
OK City bombing, done by Christians (Republicans no less), noone cared.
OK bombing wasn't done by Republican Christians but rather by Turner Diaries reading, Jew hating Christian Identity revolutionaries. They've got more in common with the KKK than with the Religious Right. Nobody likes Christian Identity militia nutjobs.

Heres what I dont get:

Sept 11th, supposedly done by Muslims, everyone hates Islam.
OK City bombing, done by Christians (Republicans no less), noone cared.


cared enough to track them down try them and fry them .

OK bombing wasn't done by Republican Christians but rather by Turner Diaries reading, Jew hating Christian Identity revolutionaries. They've got more in common with the KKK than with the Religious Right. Nobody likes Christian Identity militia nutjobs.

But nobody hates the entire Christian religion. Everyone hates Islam now. You basically just explained the point I was trying to make.

cared enough to track them down try them and fry them .

You missed the point.

As a non-muslim you are not allowed to set foot in Mecca. Either you are lying or your friends are ignorant about their own rules.

I am aware of this. We weren't going to the Cabah, just to the surrounding city.

Bulldust. Either Jesus speaks the truth, and he's the son of God, and not a prophet. Or he's lying - and therefore no prophet either.

Crappy argument brought up by the peace at any price party.

So everything someone says is either completely true or completely false?

OK bombing wasn't done by Republican Christians but rather by Turner Diaries reading, Jew hating Christian Identity revolutionaries. They've got more in common with the KKK than with the Religious Right. Nobody likes Christian Identity militia nutjobs.

exactly
do Timothy Mcvaigh, David Koresh, or Jim Jones Typify christianity? no
Does Meir Kahane typify judaism? no
Do Osama bin Laden, the Taliban or the rest of them typify Islam? no

I think you may be confused. Sufis are simply a more mystical branch of Islam. Ever see the dervishes who whirl about in a trance in an attempt to be closer to god? Those are Sufi. Most of the problems come from Sunnis of the deobandi or wahabi schools of thought or from Shiite terrorists under control of Iran.

You're right. I thought what I was typing seemed wrong, but something I was reading told me I was right. Then I looked at a project I did on islam and I read about that after seeign your message. My bad.

But nobody hates the entire Christian religion. Everyone hates Islam now. You basically just explained the point I was trying to make.
Can't make that point.

There are millions of sympathizers for radical Islam. Tens, possibly hundreds of millions.

No such numbers for Christian wackos. Not even close.

When millions of Muslims riot in the streets around the world over a cartoon, there's a big problem.

they follow whahabism dont they ? Except for Hez...they are shiites against the Israeli state being in existance .




http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/wahhabi_movement.htm


Get your sects straight ! :D


lol!

Its a bit more complicated than that. Most of the terrorists are Sufis. Though they claim to be Sunni or Shi'ite


EDIT: For those who don't know what a Sufi is, its a Muslim who believes firmly that all non-Muslims are heretics, and must be eliminated.

Where the eff did u get that piece of nonsense from? I suspect your muslim "friends" are having fun with you.;)

Sufis are mystical and they are the ones considered heretics by the more mainstream sunni and shia.

Visiting a sufi peer's shrine would get you death sentence from salafists whilst sufis could care less about what other muslims do.

In general, sufis are the most tolerant of all islamic sects.

exactly


Very true. Mcveigh (spelling?) was a self proclaimed Neo-Nazi, according to records on him. I don't know if its true or not, but its what I read.

Apparently, he was at the Branch Dividian compound bombing, and thats what set him off, but I still say it was because he was passed over for Special Forces.

Where the eff did u get that piece of nonsense from? I suspect your muslim "friends" are having fun with you.;)

Sufis are mystical and they are the ones considered heretics by the more mainstream sunni and shia.

Visiting a sufi peer's shrine would get you death sentence from salafists whilst sufis could care less about what other muslims do.

In general, sufis are the most tolerant of all islamic sects.

I mixed up the sect with another one. Look up a few posts mate ;)


Regardless, take the sect that I was more referring to, and insert it in the stead of Sufis, and my point is still valid.

Can't make that point.

There are millions of sympathizers for radical Islam. Tens, possibly hundreds of millions.

Well, youre right, Christians havent been shit on for 1000 years.

If they were I am sure they would be just as violent.

When millions of Muslims riot in the streets around the world over a cartoon, there's a big problem.

Ever think it could have been the straw that breaks the camels back? Little things add up.

I am aware of this. We weren't going to the Cabah, just to the surrounding city.

Wrong again.

The KSA govt enforces a strict ban on entry of non-muslims into the whole city of Mecca (and Madina). Exceptions are made at their discretion for stuff like infrastructure projects etc.

Added later: refer to Qur'an 9:28 "Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque...."

But nobody hates the entire Christian religion. Everyone hates Islam now. You basically just explained the point I was trying to make.
Not everyone hates Islam. Certainly some do, and some hate christianity too. You're exaggerating.

I am aware of this. We weren't going to the Cabah, just to the surrounding city.

Im pretty sure you need to be a muslim, and actually show credentials, to enter Mecca.

Not everyone hates Islam. Certainly some do, and some hate christianity too. You're exaggerating.

But there was no public outcry as there was with Islam.

Not everyone hates Islam. Certainly some do, and some hate christianity too. You're exaggerating.


I have no problem with Islam, I find it a fascinating religion. I don't hate Christianity either, but, like all religions do, it has its faults.


and to the person who said Wrong Again:

My mistake, I was unaware. Just paroting what they told me. But that really isn't a big deal. The point of my argument was to stress that I have muslim friends, and that Islam is a religion of Peace, and not all Muslims are bad.

islam,is a Religion.
Monotheism is faschism
Religion is what it is ,
belief.
i don't belief in illusion
:D

Im pretty sure you need to be a muslim, and actually show credentials, to enter Mecca.

Thats what I've just been told. I didn't know this. My friend, who is Sayyed said something about "forget about it, not a problem", but I wasn't going to go anyway. This was when the Insurgency was really heating up, and American Journalists were disapearing over there. I have no intention on going with them anywhere until there is peace in that region, which ain't gonna be in my lifetime anyway ;)


EDIT: They were trying to get me to convert to Islam at that time, so that might have had something to do with it. Something I neglected to add in there.

But there was no public outcry as there was with Islam.
Well, the body count was much lower, it was one attack, 9/11 was four separate attacks. Three successful, one failed. Also it happened in Oklahoma, one of the states that don't really matter all that much.

In spite of all that I remember the news covering it incessantly and reports on whether or not militia groups in the midwest were planning similar attacks.

Im pretty sure you need to be a muslim, and actually show credentials, to enter Mecca.
I think you do need to be a Muslim, but what kinds of credentials could you possibly show to prove you're a Muslim? Do they have secret decoder rings?

Well, the body count was much lower, it was one attack, 9/11 was four separate attacks. Three successful, one failed. Also it happened in Oklahoma, one of the states that don't really matter all that much.

In spite of all that I remember the news covering it incessantly and reports on whether or not militia groups in the midwest were planning similar attacks.

Well thats the thing.

When a christian does it, its an Isolated murder or other incident.

If a Muslim does it, its Islamic terrorism.

Fuck that shit.

I think you do need to be a Muslim, but what kinds of credentials could you possibly show to prove you're a Muslim? Do they have secret decoder rings?

I think theres some sort of registration you need to go through.

I think you do need to be a Muslim, but what kinds of credentials could you possibly show to prove you're a Muslim? Do they have secret decoder rings?
I bet speaking fluent Arabic and having a circumcision helps.

Can't make that point.

There are millions of sympathizers for radical Islam. Tens, possibly hundreds of millions.

No such numbers for Christian wackos. Not even close.

When millions of Muslims riot in the streets around the world over a cartoon, there's a big problem.

Estimates of the fundamentalist Christian population in the USA alone are around a quarter of the population, or 70 to 80 million. On top of that there are a lot of hardline Christians in Eastern Europe and along the Mediterranean, more in South America, and a lot more still in Africa, where entrenched fundamentalists are threatening to split the Anglican church because they see the leadership as too liberal. Even if there are only 50 million fundamentalist Christians in the USA, there should easily be numbers in the hundreds of millions worldwide. It sounds as if the numbers are fairly close to me.

Estimates of the fundamentalist Christian population in the USA alone are around a quarter of the population, or 70 to 80 million. On top of that there are a lot of hardline Christians in Eastern Europe and along the Mediterranean, more in South America, and a lot more still in Africa, where entrenched fundamentalists are threatening to split the Anglican church because they see the leadership as too liberal. Even if there are only 50 million fundamentalist Christians in the USA, there should easily be numbers in the hundreds of millions worldwide. It sounds as if the numbers are fairly close to me.

Good job, I can stop looking now.

Estimates of the fundamentalist Christian population in the USA alone are around a quarter of the population, or 70 to 80 million. On top of that there are a lot of hardline Christians in Eastern Europe and along the Mediterranean, more in South America, and a lot more still in Africa, where entrenched fundamentalists are threatening to split the Anglican church because they see the leadership as too liberal. Even if there are only 50 million fundamentalist Christians in the USA, there should easily be numbers in the hundreds of millions worldwide. It sounds as if the numbers are fairly close to me.

Really? How many rioted and burned embassies over depictions of Jesus in a bottle of urine?

Depictions of Jesus on South Park?

Really? None! Wow!

Must not be as "fundamentalist" as you imagine.

Have any flown airliners into buildings? No? Massacred people in the thousands? No?

Really? How many rioted and burned embassies over depictions of Jesus in a bottle of urine?

Christianity went through the same murderous rampage phase.

Depictions of Jesus on South Park?

Really? None! Wow!

Um, do you watch South Park?

Massacred people in the thousands? No?

YES. THE ENTIRE AZTEC/INCA CIVILIZATIONS WERE DESTROYED.

Christianity went through the same murderous rampage phase.

Um, do you watch South Park?

YES. THE ENTIRE AZTEC/INCA CIVILIZATIONS WERE DESTROYED.

By disease, primarily. Measles and typhoid mostly, of which Europeans were completely unaware.

One might also add that Christianity has "grown up" considerably since then. Something that Islam hasn't even come close to doing.

And you've proven my point by pointing that out.

Really? No one of another religion has ever killed someone over similar infractions? For instance, there was no rule in the OT that ordered a woman who had committed adultery to be killed?
Present tense.

Political dissent is suppressed, innocent people are executed regularly, the purchase of alcohol is outlawed, where religious extremism and bigotry reigns, men are obliged to wear stupid hats and their women, who are second class citizens, are forced to wear ridiculous, inappropriate clothing.

or is that Texas im thinking of? :p
Texas: the Iran of the Western world.

Hi, my name is Crusades, I dont believe we have met.
The crusades were neither honour killings (more like all-out wars/jihads) nor practised in modern times.

Islam does not compare to the elimination of entire civilizations by Pizarro and Cortez in the name of Christianity.

you mean, in the name of Spain acquiring lots of gold.

Christianity doesn't get off that easy just because we've stopped them from murdering recently. Given the chance they'd go apeshit crazy on us again.
Christians and Muslims are as a whole, disinclined towards murder because their religions both forbid it.

Yeah like gay marriage.

Oh wait...
Things like allowing gays to live, which fundie Muslims still can't get their heads around.

Is it your opinion that it's better to kill gay people than to forbid marriage to them? (not that I support either)

Islam is a relatively young religion that has seen alot of persecution.
1400 years isn't young. Islam is not particularly an oppressed religion. Indeed, for most of its history, Islam has ruled over the Middle East.

And who set Islam back?

The Mongols.

Learning flourished in Muslim countries at a time when the Christian church severely limited thought (you know, the sun moving around the earth and stuff).
That's another era. In this era, ignorance, bigotry and terrorism flourishes in the Middle East while science, tolerance and peace flourish in evil Christian Europe.

Also, the atrocities committed by Christians during the crusades are still a source of anger among many Muslims to this day.
If that's even true, maybe they should get over it. Those atrocities can't be blamed on Christians today.

So in 700 years, when you continue your anti-Muslim sentiment, I better hear you say the same thing about Islam.
We're going to have to put up with Boggie and Kazus for 700+ more years? :eek:

You know, I'm just comparing the first couple of pages of this thread, and the first couple of pages of the Christianity thread, and this isn't going very well at all. :(
On NS people freely criticise Christianity, and proclaim that all Christians act like the extremists.

Then people criticise extremist Muslims, then the same people who launched a verbal assault on Christians will come in and denounce everyone else for generalising about all Muslims, even if no such thing was done.

People start discussing Islam, and they can't get beyond demonising its followers.
People start criticising extreme Islam and the relativists start saying "Christianity did the same thing 1500 years ago", or "patriarchs have a right to kill women because it's their culture"* and "you're a bigot".**

*funny that these people are usually liberal and thus should be defending women's rights worldwide

**which really drags down the intellectual level of the debate

Crappy argument brought up by the peace at any price party.
What has this got to do with war and peace?

By disease, primarily. Measles and typhoid mostly, of which Europeans were completely unaware.

One might also add that Christianity has "grown up" considerably since then. Something that Islam hasn't even come close to doing.

And you've proven my point by pointing that out.

Uh....no. There are radical Christians in the world who are just as bad as the radical Muslims. Look at Phelps! Sure, he isn't violent, but hes psycologically just as evil.


Look, neither religion is entirely innocent ok? Both have their black sheep so to speak.

Really? How many rioted and burned embassies over depictions of Jesus in a bottle of urine?

1.) Mohammed being depicted or drawn at all is a big no-no in Islam.

2.) What the Hell is the point of drawing Jesus in a piss jar?

By disease, primarily. Measles and typhoid mostly, of which Europeans were completely unaware.

I KNEW you were going to spew some crap about how it wasnt the christians fault.

Cortez conquered and killed countless Aztecs in the name of God (AKA gold and silver, searching for El Dorado). Same goes for Pizarro and the Incas.

I KNEW you were going to spew some crap about how it wasnt the christians fault.

Cortez conquered and killed countless Aztecs in the name of God (AKA gold and silver, searching for El Dorado). Same goes for Pizarro and the Incas.

Interesting history on the subject - measles killed the majority.

In fact, Cortez' military victories were not made possible by crude firearms or cannon - they were made possible by disease preceding the march of his pitifully small force.

Really? How many rioted and burned embassies over depictions of Jesus in a bottle of urine?

Depictions of Jesus on South Park?

Really? None! Wow!

Must not be as "fundamentalist" as you imagine.

I dunno, they still seem pretty crazy. Fundamentalist Christian groups still try to get things that they don't like banned, but our culture as a whole is less violent when it comes to protests.

Have any flown airliners into buildings? No? Massacred people in the thousands? No?

No, they haven't flown airliners into buildings. Of course, that is a terrible example. 9/11 is the only time when aeroplanes have been used as a suicide weapon by any non-governmental organisation (to the best of my knowledge). And its closest relatives, suicide bombings and car bombings, are practiced by groups other than Muslims. Christians have committed terrorist acts, its just that extremists rarely paint them as representing all Christians.

And as for massacring people in their thousands, yes they have. Ever heard of the Srebrenica massacre? A more recent example than the Crusades, and one in which 40,000 innocent Muslims were massacred by Christian forces.

what's wrong?
the same thing as seeing Che a crucified revolutionary,

Islamic teachings preach hate and violence towards Infidels on a much larger scale compared to any other religion.

No, they haven't flown airliners into buildings. Of course, that is a terrible example. 9/11 is the only time when aeroplanes have been used as a suicide weapon by any non-governmental organisation (to the best of my knowledge).

Algerians who hijacked an Air France flight had planned to crash into the Eiffel Tower.

And its closest relatives, suicide bombings and car bombings, are practiced by groups other than Muslims.

Can't find any Christian suicide bombings in modern times.

Christians have committed terrorist acts, its just that extremists rarely paint them as representing all Christians.
I certainly heard that the whole Northern Ireland thing was a Christian thing. But they were nice enough to confine it to their corner of the world. Never heard about them planning to hijack ten airliners at once and fly them to some foreign country to issue demands.

And as for massacring people in their thousands, yes they have. Ever heard of the Srebrenica massacre? A more recent example than the Crusades, and one in which 40,000 innocent Muslims were massacred by Christian forces.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Remembering_Srebrenice_massacre

Not to quibble, but that's one massacre, 8,000 people, not 40,000.

You've shown me no examples of millions of rampaging Christians burning cities and embassies in reaction to insults against their religion.

Today. In modern times.

I dunno, they still seem pretty crazy. Fundamentalist Christian groups still try to get things that they don't like banned, but our culture as a whole is less violent when it comes to protests.



No, they haven't flown airliners into buildings. Of course, that is a terrible example. 9/11 is the only time when aeroplanes have been used as a suicide weapon by any non-governmental organisation (to the best of my knowledge). And its closest relatives, suicide bombings and car bombings, are practiced by groups other than Muslims. Christians have committed terrorist acts, its just that extremists rarely paint them as representing all Christians.

And as for massacring people in their thousands, yes they have. Ever heard of the Srebrenica massacre? A more recent example than the Crusades, and one in which 40,000 innocent Muslims were massacred by Christian forces.

I'm going to say one word, about this:

Yugoslavia.

Present tense.

You have to ignore the history of religions to restrict it that way. Think about it. Look at the age of Islam. At the same age, Christianity had Europe in the Dark Ages. At the same age, Judaism was a very war-like and involved similar "honor killings."

It would appear that religions in control of governments go through some pretty ugly stages (and generally eventually realize that religion shouldn't be in control of government, go figure).

Algerians who hijacked an Air France flight had planned to crash into the Eiffel Tower.

But they didn't actually do it, so it can hardly be compared.


Can't find any Christian suicide bombings in modern times.

Yes, suicide bombings don't seem to be all that common outside extremist Islamic groups and the Tamil Tigers. But they aren't the only forms of attack.


I certainly heard that the whole Northern Ireland thing was a Christian thing. But they were nice enough to confine it to their corner of the world. Never heard about them planning to hijack ten airliners at once and fly them to some foreign country to issue demands.

The IRA were fighting Protestants in Ireland and the English, who conveniently enough are only a short hop, skip, and jump across the Irish Sea. They had no need to attack outside that area. Certain fundamentalist Islamic groups see Europe or America as the enemy, so it is hardly surprising that they strike there. The fact that the IRA kept their terrorist campaign within the British Isles was nothing to do with them being "nice", it was because there was no point it attacking anywhere else.


http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Remembering_Srebrenice_massacre

Not to quibble, but that's one massacre, 8,000 people, not 40,000.

You've shown me no examples of millions of rampaging Christians burning cities and embassies in reaction to insults against their religion.

Today. In modern times.

Damnit, I picked the wrong figure from this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre). Even so, it still kills your idea that Christians haven't commited massacres in recent times. I'll freely admit that radical Islam has killed far more people than radical Christianity in recent times.

And as for the riots, the violent demonstrations were confined to the Middle East and a few African countries. While there were protests in other mainly Muslim countries, such as Indonesia, they were far less disruptive, and among Muslim populations in the Western world the protests were positively feeble. I think this says far more about the Middle East and Africa than it does about Islam as a whole.

But they didn't actually do it, so it can hardly be compared.




Yes, suicide bombings don't seem to be all that common outside extremist Islamic groups and the Tamil Tigers. But they aren't the only forms of attack.




The IRA were fighting Protestants in Ireland and the English, who conveniently enough are only a short hop, skip, and jump across the Irish Sea. They had no need to attack outside that area. Certain fundamentalist Islamic groups see Europe or America as the enemy, so it is hardly surprising that they strike there. The fact that the IRA kept their terrorist campaign within the British Isles was nothing to do with them being "nice", it was because there was no point it attacking anywhere else.




Damnit, I picked the wrong figure from this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre). Even so, it still kills your idea that Christians haven't commited massacres in recent times. I'll freely admit that radical Islam has killed far more people than radical Christianity in recent times.

And as for the riots, the violent demonstrations were confined to the Middle East and a few African countries. While there were protests in other mainly Muslim countries, such as Indonesia, they were far less disruptive, and among Muslim populations in the Western world the protests were positively feeble. I think this says far more about the Middle East and Africa than it does about Islam as a whole.


Like I already mentioned: Yugoslavia. Supposed "Orthodox Christians" massacred thousands and thousands of people in their ethnic cleansing campaigns.

Sept 11th, supposedly done by Muslims, everyone hates Islam.
Hardly anyone hates Islam. Some people hate extremists.

Many of us don't hate at all, but prefer to help and educate.

But isn't it odd how you say that nobody cared about the ppl who perpetrated the OK bomb, yet the man responsible was tracked down and handed the harshest punishment America has to offer.

Osama bin Laden hasn't been caught and the Americans probably don't even care about finding him.

But there was no public outcry as there was with Islam.
There wasn't. Even Bush went around telling everyone that Islam is a religion of peace.

When a christian does it, its an Isolated murder or other incident.

If a Muslim does it, its Islamic terrorism.

Fuck that shit.
If a Christian does it and says "I am killing in the name of God" then it's Christian terrorism. See the KKK, and the Lord's Army (Uganda).

If a Muslim does it and says "I am killing in the name of Allah" then it's Christian terrorism. See al-Qaeda, Hizb'allah, Islamic Jihad, the Taliban, Hamas, etc.

Good job, I can stop looking now.
The fact that it's hard to find is telling.

Christianity went through the same murderous rampage phase.
Still, kind of destroys your argument that there are millions of fundamentalist Christians in the world today, lusting for Arab blood.

At the time Christianity went through the murderous rampage phase, Islam was also going through the murderous rampage phase.

In any case I don't think that Christian precedents can be used to justify Islamist atrocities. Ideally the whole world should be beyond killing in the name of religion. Do you not agree?

1.) Mohammed being depicted or drawn at all is a big no-no in Islam.

2.) What the Hell is the point of drawing Jesus in a piss jar?
1) "Piss Christ" is blasphemous to Christians as well, but it would be moronic to riot over it.

2) Probably a commentary of some kind. It doesn't matter about why. The important point is, that Andre Serrano has the freedom to do it. And that Christians are tolerant of that.

You have to ignore the history of religions to restrict it that way. Think about it. Look at the age of Islam. At the same age, Christianity had Europe in the Dark Ages. At the same age, Judaism was a very war-like and involved similar "honor killings."

It would appear that religions in control of governments go through some pretty ugly stages (and generally eventually realize that religion shouldn't be in control of government, go figure).
Since behaviour is shaped by culture more than religion, the age of the religion is irrelevant.

Were Buddhism and Jainism equally violent at the ripe young age of 1400?

And as for the riots, the violent demonstrations were confined to the Middle East and a few African countries. While there were protests in other mainly Muslim countries, such as Indonesia, they were far less disruptive, and among Muslim populations in the Western world the protests were positively feeble. I think this says far more about the Middle East and Africa than it does about Islam as a whole.
That there were protests at all indicates that these religious people are too conservative.

I agree that it's more of an M.E. problem than an Islam problem.

I'm serious, what do you think is wrong with Islam?

The same thing that is wrong with all religions of the world: They are a codified rationalization for the prejudices of the powers that be.

Nothing's wrong with Islam. Believe what you want. I just think some religions are flawed/hypocritical.

Nothing's wrong with Islam. Believe what you want. I just think some religions are flawed/hypocritical.

What do you mean by that? Could you explain a little more?

The same thing that is wrong with all religions of the world: They are a codified rationalization for the prejudices of the powers that be.


amen