NationStates Jolt Archive

Everybody likes to root for an underdog. Everyone likes to identify with the helpless guy who finds power and overcomes those who have oppressd him. Hollywood knows this, and works it into the plots of many popular films. I guess it's something in human nature.

Now is that same underdog effect behind some of the opposition to Israel and support for Hezbollah and Hamas that we see on this forum? Do people support Israel's enemies because they are weak and always lose in a stand up fight regardless of whether they're right or wrong?

Lots of people fanatically support the US, which isn't an underdog.

If there was some shred of possibility that Hezbollah could win the current war with Israel, you'd get some degree of the underdog effect, I think. But really, since there isn't, I think the traditional motivations apply; that is, your personal politics and take on history.

Lots of people fanatically support the US, which isn't an underdog.
Most of them are US citizens though. It's kind of stupid to root against the team you're on.

I think it's just a typical effect of the brainwashed minions to root for whomever the newspapers tell them too. Israel is bad. The aggressors...Hezbollah...good. Got it. ;)

Most of them are US citizens though. It's kind of stupid to root against the team you're on.

Yes, if you're in a stadium and you're on the side of the stadium where the home team fans are sitting, and you're yelling "Fuck the home team and I hope they lose!" don't expect to live to see half time.

I think it's just a typical effect of the brainwashed minions to root for whomever the newspapers tell them too. Israel is bad. The aggressors...Hezbollah...good. Got it. ;)

Why would the Establishment brainwash people against the liberal free-market nation and towards the dangerous fundamentalists? You get the nonsense award.

So you're saying this is like a big game.
Israel has killed 900, Hizbollah 100.

So that's like 9 - 1 to Israel.

And it's an away game too, cause it's mostly being held in Lebannon.

Why would the Establishment brainwash people against the liberal free-market nation and towards the dangerous fundamentalists? You get the nonsense award.
Because Israel's the enemy. But I suppose I'm just being paranoid. There is no agenda, right?

So you're saying this is like a big game.
Israel has killed 900, Hizbollah 100.

So that's like 9 - 1 to Israel.

And it's an away game too, cause it's mostly being held in Lebannon.Everything is a game, but you're keeping score wrong. You don't win by inflicting the most casualties, but by getting what you want. Israel wants Hezbollah to stay far enough from their borders so they can't hit it's cities with rockets or mount cross-border raids to capture it's people.

Everybody likes to root for an underdog. Everyone likes to identify with the helpless guy who finds power and overcomes those who have oppressd him. Hollywood knows this, and works it into the plots of many popular films. I guess it's something in human nature.

Now is that same underdog effect behind some of the opposition to Israel and support for Hezbollah and Hamas that we see on this forum? Do people support Israel's enemies because they are weak and always lose in a stand up fight regardless of whether they're right or wrong?


Most of the "opposition to Israel" is related to their attempts at colonialism in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. Its activities in Lebanon are, as ever, excessive. Thats hardly "pro" any particular grouping.

I think it's because people have a tendency to lose patience and say, "Look, I'm fed up of your shit", even to their best friends. Because it's not just your history that matters, it's someone acting like a dumbass even after you've been taking them aside and hissing "Dude, WTF?!" for like, ever. And there just comes a time when you have to ask yourself, do you really want to keep hanging around them and getting second-hand embarrassment, or would you rather stand back and watch them get what's coming?

Frankly, some people need a good solid 'owned' experience to get them to wake up and start thinking.

Most of the "opposition to Israel" is related to their attempts at colonialism in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. Its activities in Lebanon are, as ever, excessive. Thats hardly "pro" any particular grouping.
The Palestinians were offered two state solutions and they've rejected them. They want right of return, which in effect is the demographic destruction of Israel. Israel was working on turning over the West Bank to Palestinians unilatterally before this crap happened.

You claim that Israel's actions against Hezbollah were excessive. What should Israel have done then? Just sit there and take it? Have they no right to fight back in their own defense?

The Hez and all the ARABs and the Iranians KNOW all about the underdog problem...thats why the US is so important to tie into Israel..otherwise HOW could they explain not being able to defeat a tiny little country like Israel with their own combined Armys multiple times and always getting their ass kicked ?:D :D

Get real...they need to Un , underdog Israel so the US is its master or something..:D

believe me they know about the underdog problem first hand .

Most of them are US citizens though. It's kind of stupid to root against the team you're on.
ROFL

The Palestinians were offered two state solutions and they've rejected them. They want right of return, which in effect is the demographic destruction of Israel. Israel was working on turning over the West Bank to Palestinians unilatterally before this crap happened.

You claim that Israel's actions against Hezbollah were excessive. What should Israel have done then? Just sit there and take it? Have they no right to fight back in their own defense?
Besides, Israel took that land after it was attacked in multiple wars. I think its earned the right to them.

I think it's because people have a tendency to lose patience and say, "Look, I'm fed up of your shit", even to their best friends. Because it's not just your history that matters, it's someone acting like a dumbass even after you've been taking them aside and hissing "Dude, WTF?!" for like, ever. And there just comes a time when you have to ask yourself, do you really want to keep hanging around them and getting second-hand embarrassment, or would you rather stand back and watch them get what's coming?

Frankly, some people need a good solid 'owned' experience to get them to wake up and start thinking.


Let's get one thing straight here: it is the ARABS who needs getting that good solid 'owned' experience.

Ana la bakrah Israel

People in the West who support Hizbollah probably are doing it to see the state-supported Israelis get a kicking. That is, after all, the point of the underdog effect; it's a kind of schaudenfreude, almost. They want to see the big guy suffer, with the little guy merely being a tool to that effect.

There are all sorts of obvious warts on this disgusting toad of an idea. It's a narrow minded, vindictive, destructive, uncompromising and sadistic disrespect for the lives of the Israeli people, while simultaneously throwing aside the very genuine grievances of the Lebanese people in favour of all-out battle that they can sit back and enjoy from a distance while these poor pawns get sucked into an inescapable black hole of ideological strife.

However. Opposition to Israel is not the same as support for Hizbollah. There are those of us who think that both parties are in the wrong, and I am unashamed to state that I am appalled by both the disgraceful civilian cull by the Israelis and the pride with which Lebanon's armed militia chalks up the victims of its rocket attacks. Not only are they fighting for causes whose stupidity defy belief (ie, let's draw a line here! No, here, goddamn you! AAH JIHAD! AHH RESTORE GOD'S CHOSEN KINGDOM!), killing thousands of their own bloody people in the process, but they are poisoning the world with their combined efforts to draw us into their pathetic dispute.

I oppose both Israel and Hizbollah in this battle. It stuns and worries me to think that anyone does otherwise.

Now is that same underdog effect behind some of the opposition to Israel and support for Hezbollah and Hamas that we see on this forum? Do people support Israel's enemies because they are weak and always lose in a stand up fight regardless of whether they're right or wrong?
Well, if you ignore all the civilian-killing business, it's somewhat entertaining that this little terrorist group seems to be holding out against the mighty army of Israel.

People in the West who support Hizbollah probably are doing it to see the state-supported Israelis get a kicking. That is, after all, the point of the underdog effect; it's a kind of schaudenfreude, almost. They want to see the big guy suffer, with the little guy merely being a tool to that effect.

There are all sorts of obvious warts on this disgusting toad of an idea. It's a narrow minded, vindictive, destructive, uncompromising and sadistic disrespect for the lives of the Israeli people, while simultaneously throwing aside the very genuine grievances of the Lebanese people in favour of all-out battle that they can sit back and enjoy from a distance while these poor pawns get sucked into an inescapable black hole of ideological strife.

However. Opposition to Israel is not the same as support for Hizbollah. There are those of us who think that both parties are in the wrong, and I am unashamed to state that I am appalled by both the disgraceful civilian cull by the Israelis and the pride with which Lebanon's armed militia chalks up the victims of its rocket attacks. Not only are they fighting for causes whose stupidity defy belief (ie, let's draw a line here! No, here, goddamn you! AAH JIHAD! AHH RESTORE GOD'S CHOSEN KINGDOM!), killing thousands of their own bloody people in the process, but they are poisoning the world with their combined efforts to draw us into their pathetic dispute.

I oppose both Israel and Hizbollah in this battle. It stuns and worries me to think that anyone does otherwise.

Someone making an intelligent, absolutely correct and properly spelled post on NSG is the first sign of the apocalypse.

*Waits for Satan*

The Palestinians were offered two state solutions and they've rejected them. They want right of return, which in effect is the demographic destruction of Israel. Israel was working on turning over the West Bank to Palestinians unilatterally before this crap happened.
?

No they aren't, they're hanging on the the settlements. And they accepted the two state solution at Taba.


You claim that Israel's actions against Hezbollah were excessive. What should Israel have done then? Just sit there and take it? Have they no right to fight back in their own defense?

A few targeted assasinations would have done the job more effectively.

Let's get one thing straight here: it is the ARABS who needs getting that good solid 'owned' experience.
Heh, no.

Let's get one thing straight here:

How about "Your shite got very old, very fast"?

No they aren't, they're hanging on the the settlements. And they accepted the two state solution at Taba.



A few targeted assasinations would have done the job more effectively.
How would a few targeted killings move Hezbollah and it's rocket launchers back from the border? That's the goal of this operation, you know. It's not to continue a cycle of attack and counterattack, it's intended to place a buffer between Israel and Hezbollah and hopefully end the killing for good. You folks who advocate restraint are unintentionally prolonging conflict and making sure that just as many lives, if not more, are lost over the long term instead of getting the violence out of the way all at once and letting people settle into peaceful coexistence. If folks like you ran WWII we'd still be fighting Japan.

People in the West who support Hizbollah probably are doing it to see the state-supported Israelis get a kicking. That is, after all, the point of the underdog effect; it's a kind of schaudenfreude, almost. They want to see the big guy suffer, with the little guy merely being a tool to that effect.

There are all sorts of obvious warts on this disgusting toad of an idea. It's a narrow minded, vindictive, destructive, uncompromising and sadistic disrespect for the lives of the Israeli people, while simultaneously throwing aside the very genuine grievances of the Lebanese people in favour of all-out battle that they can sit back and enjoy from a distance while these poor pawns get sucked into an inescapable black hole of ideological strife.

However. Opposition to Israel is not the same as support for Hizbollah. There are those of us who think that both parties are in the wrong, and I am unashamed to state that I am appalled by both the disgraceful civilian cull by the Israelis and the pride with which Lebanon's armed militia chalks up the victims of its rocket attacks. Not only are they fighting for causes whose stupidity defy belief (ie, let's draw a line here! No, here, goddamn you! AAH JIHAD! AHH RESTORE GOD'S CHOSEN KINGDOM!), killing thousands of their own bloody people in the process, but they are poisoning the world with their combined efforts to draw us into their pathetic dispute.

I oppose both Israel and Hizbollah in this battle. It stuns and worries me to think that anyone does otherwise.


I may not entirely aggree with you but you still make a wonderfull point and make it well .

No they aren't, they're hanging on the the settlements. And they accepted the two state solution at Taba.



A few targeted assasinations would have done the job more effectively.


you mean like a missile through the window ?


been there done that....... hez got smart and hid .


also notice that unless Hezbollah has changed its charter and reason for existence , it doesnt regognize any treaty made with Israel .

Our Identity
We are often asked: Who are we, the Hizballah, and what is our identity? We are the sons of the umma (Muslim community) - the party of God (Hizb Allah) the vanguard of which was made victorious by God in Iran. There the vanguard succeeded to lay down the bases of a Muslim state which plays a central role in the world. We obey the orders of one leader, wise and just, that of our tutor and faqih (jurist) who fulfills all the necessary conditions: Ruhollah Musawi Khomeini. God save him!

By virtue of the above, we do not constitute an organized and closed party in Lebanon. nor are we a tight political cadre. We are an umma linked to the Muslims of the whole world by the solid doctrinal and religious connection of Islam, whose message God wanted to be fulfilled by the Seal of the Prophets, i.e., Muhammad. This is why whatever touches or strikes the Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Philippines and elsewhere reverberates throughout the whole Muslim umma of which we are an integral part. Our behavior is dictated to us by legal principles laid down by the light of an overall political conception defined by the leading jurist (wilayat al-faqih).

As for our culture, it is based on the Holy Koran, the Sunna and the legal rulings of the faqih who is our source of imitation (marja' al-taqlid). Our culture is crystal clear. It is not complicated and is accessible to all.

No one can imagine the importance of our military potential as our military apparatus is not separate from our overall social fabric. Each of us is a fighting soldier. And when it becomes necessary to carry out the Holy War, each of us takes up his assignment in the fight in accordance with the injunctions of the Law, and that in the framework of the mission carried out under the tutelage of the Commanding Jurist.

Our Fight
The US has tried, through its local agents, to persuade the people that those who crushed their arrogance in Lebanon and frustrated their conspiracy against the oppressed (mustad'afin) were nothing but a bunch of fanatic terrorists whose sole aim is to dynamite bars and destroy slot machines. Such suggestions cannot and will not mislead our umma, for the whole world knows that whoever wishes to oppose the US, that arrogant superpower, cannot indulge in marginal acts which may make it deviate from its major objective. We combat abomination and we shall tear out its very roots, its primary roots, which are the US. All attempts made to drive us into marginal actions will fail, especially as our determination to fight the US is solid.

We declare openly and loudly that we are an umma which fears God only and is by no means ready to tolerate injustice, aggression and humiliation. America, its Atlantic Pact allies, and the Zionist entity in the holy land of Palestine, attacked us and continue to do so without respite. Their aim is to make us eat dust continually. This is why we are, more and more, in a state of permanent alert in order to repel aggression and defend our religion, our existence, our dignity. They invaded our country, destroyed our villages, slit the throats of our children, violated our sanctuaries and appointed masters over our people who committed the worst massacres against our umma. They do not cease to give support to these allies of Israel, and do not enable us to decide our future according to our own wishes.

In a single night the Israelis and the Phalangists executed thousands of our sons, women and children in Sabra and Shatilla. No international organization protested or denounced this ferocious massacre in an effective manner, a massacre perpetrated with the tacit accord of America's European allies, which had retreated a few days, maybe even a few hours earlier, from the Palestinian camps. The Lebanese defeatists accepted putting the camps under the protection of that crafty fox, the US envoy Philip Habib.

We have no alternative but to confront aggression by sacrifice. The coordination between the Phalangists and Israel continues and develops. A hundred thousand victims - this is the approximate balance sheet of crimes committed by them and by the US against us. Almost half a million Muslims were forced to leave their homes. Their quarters were virtually totally destroyed in Nab'a, my own Beirut suburb, as well as in Burj Hammud, Dekonaneh, Tel Zaatar, Sinbay, Ghawarina and Jubeil - all in areas controlled today by the 'Lebanese Forces',. The Zionist occupation then launched its usurpatory invasion of Lebanon in full and open collusion with the Phalanges. The latter condemned all attempts to resist the invading forces. They participated in the implementation of certain Israeli plans in order to accomplish its Lebanese dream and acceded to all Israeli requests in order to gain power.

And this is, in fact, what happened. Bashir Jumayyil, that butcher, seized power with the help also of OPEC countries and the Jumayyil family. Bashir tried to improve his ugly image by joining the six-member Committee of Public Safety presided over by former President Elias Sarkis, which was nothing but an American-Israeli bridge borrowed by the Phalangists in order to control the oppressed. Our people could not tolerate humiliation any more. It destroyed the oppressors, the invaders and their lackeys. But the US persisted in its folly and installed Amin Jumayyil to replace his brother. Some of his first so called achievements were to destroy the homes of refugees and other displaced persons, attack mosques, and order the army to bombard the southern suburbs of Beirut, where the oppressed people resided. He invited European troops to help him against us and signed the May 17th, [1984] accord with Israel making Lebanon an American protectorate.

Our people could not bear any more treachery. It decided to oppose infidelity - be it French, American or Israeli - by striking at their headquarters and launching a veritable war of resistance against the Occupation forces. Finally, the enemy had to decide to retreat by stages.

Our Objectives
Let us put it truthfully: the sons of Hizhallah know who are their major enemies in the Middle East - the Phalanges, Israel, France and the US. The sons of our umma are now in a state of growing confrontation with them, and will remain so until the realization of the following three objectives:

(a) to expel the Americans. the French and their allies definitely from Lebanon, putting an end to any colonialist entity on our land;
(b) to submit the Phalanges to a just power and bring them all to justice for the crimes they have perpetrated against Muslims and Christians;
(c) to permit all the sons of our people to determine their future and to choose in all the liberty the form of government they desire. We call upon all of them to pick the option of Islamic government which, alone, is capable of guaranteeing justice and liberty for all. Only an Islamic regime can stop any further tentative attempts of imperialistic infiltration into our country.
These are Lebanon's objectives; those are its enemies. As for our friends, they are all the world's oppressed peoples. Our friends are also those who combat our enemies and who defend us from their evil. Towards these friends, individuals as well as organizations, we turn and say:
Friends, wherever you are in Lebanon... we are in agreement with you on the great and necessary objectives: destroying American hegemony in our land; putting an end to the burdensome Israeli Occupation; beating back all the Phalangists' attempts to monopolize power and administration.
Even though we have, friends, quite different viewpoints as to the means of the struggle, on the levels upon which it must be carried out, we should surmount these tiny divergencies and consolidate cooperation between us in view of the grand design.
We are an umma which adheres to the message of Islam. We want all the oppressed to be able to study the divine message in order to bring justice, peace and tranquillity to the world. This is why we don't want to impose Islam upon anybody, as much as we that others impose upon us their convictions and their political systems. We don't want Islam to reign in Lebanon by force as is the case with the Maronites today. This is the minimum that we can accept in order to be able to accede by legal means to realize our ambitions, to save Lebanon from its dependence upon East and West, to put an end to foreign occupation and to adopt a regime freely wanted by the people of Lebanon.
This is our perception of the present state of affairs. This is the Lebanon we envision. In the light of our conceptions, our opposition to the present system is the function of two factors; (1) the present regime is the product of an arrogance so unjust that no reform or modification can remedy it. It should be changed radically, and (2) World Imperialism which is hostile to Islam.

We consider that all opposition in Lebanon voiced in the name of reform can only profit, ultimately, the present system. All such opposition which operates within the framework of the conservation and safeguarding of the present constitution without demanding changes at the level of the very foundation of the regime is, hence, an opposition of pure formality which cannot satisfy the interests of the oppressed masses. Likewise, any opposition which confronts the present regime but within the limits fixed by it, is an illusory opposition which renders a great service to the Jumayyil system. Moreover, we cannot be concerned by any proposition of political reform which accepts the rotten system actually in effect. We could not care less about the creation of this or that governmental coalition or about the participation of this or that political personality in some ministerial post, which is but a part of this unjust regime.

The politics followed by the chiefs of political Maronism through the 'Lebanese Front' and the 'Lebanese Forces' cannot guarantee peace and tranquillity for the Christians of Lebanon, whereas it is predicated upon 'asabiyya (narrow-minded particularism), on confessional privileges and on the alliance with colonialism. The Lebanese crisis has proven that confessional privileges are one of the principal causes of the great explosion which ravaged the country. It also proved that outside help was of no use to the Christians of Lebanon, just when they need it most. The bell tolled for the fanatic Christians to rid themselves of denominational allegiance and of illusion deriving from the monopolization of privileges to the detriment of other communities. The Christians should answer the appeal from heaven and have recourse to reason instead of arms, to persuasion instead of confessionalism.

To the Christians
If you, Christians, cannot tolerate that Muslims share with you certain domains of government, Allah has also made it intolerable for Muslims to participate in an unjust regime, unjust for you and for us, in a regime which is not predicated upon the prescriptions (ahkam) of religion and upon the basis of the Law (the Shari’a) as laid down by Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets. If you search for justice, who is more just than Allah? It is He who sent down from the sky the message of Islam through his successive prophets in order that they judge the people and give everyone his rights. If you were deceived and misled into believing that we anticipate vengeance against you - your fears are unjustified. For those of you who are peaceful, continue to live in our midst without anybody even thinking to trouble you.

We don't wish you evil. We call upon you to embrace Islam so that you can be happy in this world and the next. If you refuse to adhere to Islam, maintain your ties with the Muslims and don't take part in any activity against them. Free yourselves from the consequences of hateful confessionalism. Banish from your hearts all fanaticism and parochialism. Open your hearts to our Call (da'wa) which we address to you. Open yourselves up to Islam where you'll find salvation and happiness upon earth and in the hereafter. We extend this invitation also to all the oppressed among the non-Muslims. As for those who belong to Islam only formally, we exhort them to adhere to Islam in religious practice and to renounce all fanaticisms which are rejected by our religion.

World Scene
We reject both the USSR and the US, both Capitalism and Communism, for both are incapable of laying the foundations for a just society.

With special vehemence we reject UNIFIL as they were sent by world arrogance to occupy areas evacuated by Israel and serve for the latter as a buffer zone. They should be treated much like the Zionists. All should know that the goals of the Phalangists regime do not carry any weight with the Combatants of the Holy War, i.e., the Islamic resistance. This is the quagmire which awaits all foreign intervention.

There, then, are our conceptions and our objectives which serve as our basis and inspire our march. Those who accept them should know that all rights belong to Allah and He bestows them. Those who reject them, we'll be patient with them, till Allah decides between us and the people of injustice.

The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel
We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.


So whats the point ?:D

I support Lebanon not just because their the underdog, but because Israel is in essence, doing a lot of evil in that part of the world. Far more evil than good. Not that they have much choice, but killing civillians, bull dozing homes, and bombing paramedic convoys doesn't endear me to them.



EDIT: The "Party of God" or Hezboallah, needed to be taken care of, but not like this.

I support Lebanon not just because their the underdog, but because Israel is in essence, doing a lot of evil in that part of the world. Far more evil than good. Not that they have much choice, but killing civillians, bull dozing homes, and bombing paramedic convoys doesn't endear me to them.



EDIT: The "Party of God" or Hezboallah, needed to be taken care of, but not like this.


I think that if they really wanted to, Mossad could have handled Hezboallah quite effectively. I still say that the entire military operation was more of a ploy to piss of the Arab world even more, and tell Syria and everyone else that we can still kick your ass like we did in the 50s', 67', and 73'.

I support Lebanon not just because their the underdog, but because Israel is in essence, doing a lot of evil in that part of the world. Far more evil than good. Not that they have much choice, but killing civillians, bull dozing homes, and bombing paramedic convoys doesn't endear me to them.



EDIT: The "Party of God" or Hezboallah, needed to be taken care of, but not like this.


Compared with " leave us alone and we will we live in peace "

Israels stance .


hezbollah...
The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel
We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.



Your statement is a joke .

I support Lebanon not just because their the underdog, but because Israel is in essence, doing a lot of evil in that part of the world. Far more evil than good. Not that they have much choice, but killing civillians, bull dozing homes, and bombing paramedic convoys doesn't endear me to them.
That's what supporting the underdog means. You're not cheering on Hizbollah because you think they're doing things right; you're supporting them because you don't like what Israel's doing and you want to see it get whupped.

Why not just be honest and condemn Israel? Then, in a separate analysis, consider your stance on the Lebanese militia?

Contrary to popular American belief, the Lesser of Two Evils is not always the right choice to make.

Compared with " leave us alone and we will we live in peace "

Israels stance .


When they dismantle settlements and fuck off from the OT, I'll believe it. Till then its small scale imperialism, complete with the occassional bit of machine gun practice on the natives.

small scale imperialism
Couldn't help but chuckle at that, sorry.

Anything any Nation State does as an identified collective body is "small scale imperialism". Imperialistic tendencies are implicit in the very notion of "Country". Accusing the State of Israel of "Small Scale Imperialism" is like accusing oil companies of profitting from natural resources.

Most of them are US citizens though. It's kind of stupid to root against the team you're on.


No it isnt.

Thats the current sate of affairs in this country for almost a decade now.

Were so politically divided over here, its crazy.

Much to the contrary. If Hamas and Hezbollah actually had a decent chance of liberating the Palestinians and preventing Israeli crimes through their methods, I'd be more sympathetic to them, not less. Violence against civilians is wrong; stupid violence against civilians is even worse.

I think it's because people have a tendency to lose patience and say, "Look, I'm fed up of your shit", even to their best friends. Because it's not just your history that matters, it's someone acting like a dumbass even after you've been taking them aside and hissing "Dude, WTF?!" for like, ever. And there just comes a time when you have to ask yourself, do you really want to keep hanging around them and getting second-hand embarrassment, or would you rather stand back and watch them get what's coming?

Frankly, some people need a good solid 'owned' experience to get them to wake up and start thinking.
Precisely. The clear solution in the current state of affairs isn't for any side to get their way, it is for US to withdraw support for Israel. I guarantee Israel-sans US backup will be much more keen to get to the negotiation table. Especially after a sound spanking.

Most of them are US citizens though. It's kind of stupid to root against the team you're on.

Nobody has convinced the animal liberation front or PETA members of this yet.

Nobody has convinced the animal liberation front or PETA members of this yet.


I suppose that's why PETAs are perennial losers.

And it's an away game too, cause it's mostly being held in Lebannon.
I just want to remind everyone that there are still hundreds of missiles raining down on Israeli cities and settlements every day, that much of the population of the north of Israel has left (no work, no school, no exams at universities, etc), and the ones that have stayed are living in bomb shelters. So this war is taking place in Israel too. It is a fight over home - not a fun international jaunt.

Why are people assuming that not supporting Israel automatically means supporting their enemies? I support neither side, the actions of both sides are abhorent.

I think that if they really wanted to, Mossad could have handled Hezboallah quite effectively. I still say that the entire military operation was more of a ploy to piss of the Arab world even more, and tell Syria and everyone else that we can still kick your ass like we did in the 50s', 67', and 73'.
You seem to be under the delusion that the Mossad can "take care" of anything it wants, and the only reason they don't is because they've got some otehr ever-more-brilliant plan for world domination. No. The Mossad is a good inteligence orginization, but they are not endowed with mythical power. In fact, Israel's inteligence in Lebanon since the pullout six years ago has fallen very hard. It is hard to recruit informants, and know what's going on when you're not on the ground - Israel barely has the inteligence resources to wage this war effectively, much less bring the whole orginization to its knees with some nifty manouvre.

I suppose that's why PETAs are perennial losers.

They win quite a few actually. So no. It is why they can never be honest and mainstream any more than suicide bombers or those working for posterity can be honest and mainstream. There just are not that many people who will selflessly give all to a cause they cannot share a victory celebration with..

They win quite a few actually. So no. It is why they can never be honest and mainstream any more than suicide bombers or those working for posterity can be honest and mainstream. There just are not that many people who will selflessly give all to a cause they cannot share a victory celebration with.. Also PETA is run by insane people.

They win quite a few actually. So no. It is why they can never be honest and mainstream any more than suicide bombers or those working for posterity can be honest and mainstream. There just are not that many people who will selflessly give all to a cause they cannot share a victory celebration with..


*shrug* if it ain't mainstream, it is - by definition - irrelevant in the first place.

*shrug* if it ain't mainstream, it is - by definition - irrelevant in the first place.

How so?

Everybody likes to root for an underdog. Everyone likes to identify with the helpless guy who finds power and overcomes those who have oppressd him. Hollywood knows this, and works it into the plots of many popular films. I guess it's something in human nature.

Now is that same underdog effect behind some of the opposition to Israel and support for Hezbollah and Hamas that we see on this forum? Do people support Israel's enemies because they are weak and always lose in a stand up fight regardless of whether they're right or wrong?


Not at all. I generally am pro Israel but think what they are doing now is disgraceful. Its not a war but small scale genocide of civilans. Its nothing to do with Hezbollah or Hamas positions as underdogs neither of whom I have much sympathy for anyway.

How so?

Might makes right - and numbers constitute might.

If it don't do at least 25%, you can always win brownie-points by openly persecuting it. ;)

I do constantly, even to the extent of going against my country!:eek:

Not at all. I generally am pro Israel but think what they are doing now is disgraceful. Its not a war but small scale genocide of civilans. Its nothing to do with Hezbollah or Hamas positions as underdogs neither of whom I have much sympathy for anyway.
It's very far from a genocide. If the Israelis were trying to commit genocide why would they warn civilians to leave the area by leaflet, TV, radio, and even phone calls before bombing? You really should take care with words like genocide.

You weren't talking about sports though, were you...
Heck i'd a;ways support NZ iin that case and still would support the weeker nations in a war mostly.

Most of them are US citizens though. It's kind of stupid to root against the team you're on.
Thus in lies the problem with nations. Everyone is grouped into "teams" all told to kill the other "team" even though the other team is the same as they are. They laugh, cry, bleed red, and just want to live a good and happy life. So the teams kill each other not realising that they are killing themselves.