NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/mideast.main/index.html

Hot off the wire, theres the link. Israel seems to kill more civilians than Hezbollah could ever hope to.

Gee whiz.. looks like a war is being fought over there.. why wasn't I informed? Thank you, good sir. :p

American technology at its finest. Lets hope the Canadians don't end up in the area....

Hezbollah killed the civilians by using them for cover.

Hezbollah is also responsible for this and the resulting counter strikes .

Rocket barrage kills 15 Israelis
By Richard A. Oppel Jr. and Greg Myre The New York Times

Published: August 7, 2006


KFAR GILADI, Israel The deadliest barrage of Hezbollah rocket attacks in nearly a month of fighting hit northern Israel on Sunday, killing 12 army reservists resting near the Lebanon border and 3 civilians in a dusk attack in the port of Haifa.

In Lebanon, Israeli airstrikes killed more than a dozen people, according to Lebanese officials, and the damage from Israeli bombs on Lebanon's already shattered road network increasingly cut sections of the country off from one another.

[The Associated Press reported that Israeli warplanes attacked the southern suburbs of Beirut at daybreak Monday, renewing bombardment of the Hezbollah stronghold.]

The damage inflicted by both sides came as diplomatic efforts at the United Nations to reach a cease-fire proposal and arrange for an international force to move into southern Lebanon appeared to falter. The speaker of Parliament in Lebanon, Nabih Berri, said the current proposal was unacceptable, and Hezbollah's principal foreign backers, Syria and Iran, expressed opposition.

Berri, authorized by Hezbollah to act as an intermediary, criticized the proposal because it did not call for the immediate withdrawal of Israeli troops from Lebanon or an exchange of prisoners. There were signs that Israel's government was receptive to the proposal, but a Security Council vote was delayed by at least one day.

Israel's justice minister, Haim Ramon, said that Israel would press ahead with its attacks regardless of any diplomatic progress and that its forces would stay in southern Lebanon until an international force arrived. "We must continue the fighting, continue to hit whoever we can hit from Hezbollah," he told army radio.

Despite days of aerial bombardment by Israel and a force of an estimated 10,000 Israeli troops now deployed in southern Lebanon, Hezbollah militants have intensified their daily barrage of rocket attacks into northern Israel and in recent days have launched roughly 200 a day. At least 160 had hit northern Israel by nightfall on Sunday, the Israeli military said.

The most destructive was a single rocket packed with ball bearings that slammed into a parking lot at Kfar Giladi, a kibbutz in the northeastern panhandle, scoring a direct hit on Israeli reservists who were staying there. All 12 of those killed were preparing to go into Lebanon.

The rocket sprayed the bearings in a deadly cloud up to 60 yards in diameter, leaving a scene that witnesses, including a war-weary ambulance driver, described as the most horrific carnage they had ever seen.

The rocket struck two small cars parked next to each other in front of a cemetery enclosed by a stone wall and tall trees that overlook the long valley that runs from northeastern Israel into Lebanon.

The dead were both inside and outside the two cars, said Major Zvika Golan, a military spokesman. The cars were in smoking ruins as emergency workers and soldiers rushed to bring the blanket-covered corpses and the wounded to ambulances that took them down the steep hill to helicopters waiting next to the highway below. The stone wall in front of the cars was covered in blood.

The victims were apparently "just resting," Golan said.

Raging brush fires ignited by other rockets enveloped nearby Kiryat Shmona, the largest town in this part of Israel, in dense smoke and haze. Batteries of Israeli Army artillery blasted shells over the ridge above Kfar Giladi into Lebanon.

Gidon Giladi, whose family founded the kibbutz, or communal farm, said he rushed to the site of the attack to extinguish what he first thought was only a fire, and what he saw left him almost speechless. Warning sirens at the kibbutz had gone off several times during the day, and were on when the attack took place, an Israeli military spokesman said.

"This was an awful sight, and what bothers me is that it could have been avoided," Giladi said, clearly shaken by the aftermath of the blast. "It is nothing that can be described. It's something I'll never speak about publicly."

Hours later, around dusk, Hezbollah rockets hit Haifa, the normally bustling Israeli port that has been largely paralyzed by the daily barrages. Besides the three civilian deaths, dozens were injured. One rocket collapsed a residential building and set it ablaze, as rescue workers and civilians scrambled to help those trapped inside.

The Israeli military said the rockets that hit Haifa were fired from the Lebanese village of Qana, and that the military had hit and destroyed the launcher shortly afterward. Last Sunday, Israel bombed a building in Qana that it said was near the site of a rocket launcher, and 28 Lebanese civilians, including many children, were killed, arousing widespread anger internationally about what critics have called the indiscriminate nature of Israel's attacks on Lebanon.

Hezbollah rarely fires rockets after sunset because they send a streak of fire across the sky, making it much easier for the Israelis to detect the launching site.

While many of Israel's aerial assaults on Lebanon were carried out before daybreak on Sunday, they also included an afternoon barrage of a half-dozen rockets that struck the already battered Shiite neighborhoods on the southern edge of Beirut, which sent the few vehicles on the roads scrambling for safety.

The Israeli strikes killed at least one Lebanese soldier, although the army generally has not been involved in the fighting, as well as eight civilians in two southern villages, Ansar and al-Jibbain, Lebanese officials said.

In the coastal town of Tyre, a missile hit a white Toyota in the morning, killing a man inside. North of the town, a van driving toward a United Nations aid convoy was struck by a missile, killing a passenger and wounding the driver, according to United Nations officials.

In addition, at least one member of a small Palestinian faction, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, was killed.

Hezbollah released a statement saying three of its fighters had been killed, but did not provide details.

In another development, Israel said it had captured a Hezbollah militant suspected of involvement in the cross-border raid on July 12, when two Israeli soldiers were seized and taken back to Lebanon, the act that precipitated the war that is now nearly a month old. The suspect was being interrogated in Israel.

With the possibility that a United Nations resolution could win approval in the coming days, there has been speculation that Israel would seek to step up its ground campaign in an attempt to control as much territory as possible before a resolution is adopted.

But Brigadier General Alon Friedman told Israeli radio that "we are not working against time. A cease-fire is the business of the diplomats and the general staff" of the army.

"We are involved mainly in completing plans as we have done over the past days," he said.

Israel has said it is pushing to establish a buffer zone free of Hezbollah fighters, though neither the government nor the military has said exactly how large that zone would be.

Israeli forces are about three or four miles inside Lebanon in some places, and have been operating in 10 to 20 Lebanese villages, according to the military and Israeli media reports.

The Israeli troops have frequently encountered tough combat with Hezbollah, which has built a network of well-guarded posts, underground bunkers and tunnels near the border in the six years since Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, ending near two decades of occupation.

Friedman said that the Israeli incursion was largely preventing Hezbollah from launching short-range rockets from near the border, but that the group was still firing from deeper inside Lebanon.

A senior Israeli military officer, who declined to be identified because he was not authorized to talk publicly about military strategy, said Israel could go five miles or more into Lebanon to "clean" the border area before an international force arrives.

If the international force does not arrive relatively soon, Israel could advance all the way to the Litani River, which runs about 15 miles north of the border, said the officer. This is the only way to ensure that the deluge of short-range Katyusha rockets is largely halted, he said.

Including the casualties on Sunday, 58 Israeli soldiers and at least 36 civilians have been killed. Before Sunday, the deadliest day for Israel was last Thursday, when 12 people were killed.

In Lebanon, about 700 people have been killed, the vast majority of them civilians, according to Lebanese security officials.

Meanwhile, in the West Bank, Israel arrested the speaker of the Palestinian parliament, Aziz Dweik, adding to the growing number of Hamas legislators and cabinet ministers who are being detained.

"While the international media remains transfixed by Israel's devastating attacks on Lebanon, the Israeli military is escalating a forgotten war against the occupied Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank," said Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator.

Israel is now holding about 40 members of the Palestinian legislature and cabinet, most of them from Hamas, according to the Palestinians. Most were arrested after Palestinian militants seized an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid from Gaza on June 25, an attack that bore strong similarities to the Hezbollah raid into northern Israel two weeks later that led to the current crisis.

Richard A. Oppel Jr. reported from Kfar Giladi, Israel, for this article and Greg Myre from Jerusalem. Michael Kamber contributed reporting from Kfar Giladi, John Kifner from Beirut, and Sabrina Tavernise from Tyre, Lebanon.
KFAR GILADI, Israel The deadliest barrage of Hezbollah rocket attacks in nearly a month of fighting hit northern Israel on Sunday, killing 12 army reservists resting near the Lebanon border and 3 civilians in a dusk attack in the port of Haifa.

In Lebanon, Israeli airstrikes killed more than a dozen people, according to Lebanese officials, and the damage from Israeli bombs on Lebanon's already shattered road network increasingly cut sections of the country off from one another.

[The Associated Press reported that Israeli warplanes attacked the southern suburbs of Beirut at daybreak Monday, renewing bombardment of the Hezbollah stronghold.]

The damage inflicted by both sides came as diplomatic efforts at the United Nations to reach a cease-fire proposal and arrange for an international force to move into southern Lebanon appeared to falter. The speaker of Parliament in Lebanon, Nabih Berri, said the current proposal was unacceptable, and Hezbollah's principal foreign backers, Syria and Iran, expressed opposition.

Berri, authorized by Hezbollah to act as an intermediary, criticized the proposal because it did not call for the immediate withdrawal of Israeli troops from Lebanon or an exchange of prisoners. There were signs that Israel's government was receptive to the proposal, but a Security Council vote was delayed by at least one day.

Israel's justice minister, Haim Ramon, said that Israel would press ahead with its attacks regardless of any diplomatic progress and that its forces would stay in southern Lebanon until an international force arrived. "We must continue the fighting, continue to hit whoever we can hit from Hezbollah," he told army radio.

Despite days of aerial bombardment by Israel and a force of an estimated 10,000 Israeli troops now deployed in southern Lebanon, Hezbollah militants have intensified their daily barrage of rocket attacks into northern Israel and in recent days have launched roughly 200 a day. At least 160 had hit northern Israel by nightfall on Sunday, the Israeli military said.

The most destructive was a single rocket packed with ball bearings that slammed into a parking lot at Kfar Giladi, a kibbutz in the northeastern panhandle, scoring a direct hit on Israeli reservists who were staying there. All 12 of those killed were preparing to go into Lebanon.

The rocket sprayed the bearings in a deadly cloud up to 60 yards in diameter, leaving a scene that witnesses, including a war-weary ambulance driver, described as the most horrific carnage they had ever seen.

The rocket struck two small cars parked next to each other in front of a cemetery enclosed by a stone wall and tall trees that overlook the long valley that runs from northeastern Israel into Lebanon.

The dead were both inside and outside the two cars, said Major Zvika Golan, a military spokesman. The cars were in smoking ruins as emergency workers and soldiers rushed to bring the blanket-covered corpses and the wounded to ambulances that took them down the steep hill to helicopters waiting next to the highway below. The stone wall in front of the cars was covered in blood.

The victims were apparently "just resting," Golan said.

Raging brush fires ignited by other rockets enveloped nearby Kiryat Shmona, the largest town in this part of Israel, in dense smoke and haze. Batteries of Israeli Army artillery blasted shells over the ridge above Kfar Giladi into Lebanon.

Gidon Giladi, whose family founded the kibbutz, or communal farm, said he rushed to the site of the attack to extinguish what he first thought was only a fire, and what he saw left him almost speechless. Warning sirens at the kibbutz had gone off several times during the day, and were on when the attack took place, an Israeli military spokesman said.

"This was an awful sight, and what bothers me is that it could have been avoided," Giladi said, clearly shaken by the aftermath of the blast. "It is nothing that can be described. It's something I'll never speak about publicly."

Hours later, around dusk, Hezbollah rockets hit Haifa, the normally bustling Israeli port that has been largely paralyzed by the daily barrages. Besides the three civilian deaths, dozens were injured. One rocket collapsed a residential building and set it ablaze, as rescue workers and civilians scrambled to help those trapped inside.

The Israeli military said the rockets that hit Haifa were fired from the Lebanese village of Qana, and that the military had hit and destroyed the launcher shortly afterward. Last Sunday, Israel bombed a building in Qana that it said was near the site of a rocket launcher, and 28 Lebanese civilians, including many children, were killed, arousing widespread anger internationally about what critics have called the indiscriminate nature of Israel's attacks on Lebanon.

Hezbollah rarely fires rockets after sunset because they send a streak of fire across the sky, making it much easier for the Israelis to detect the launching site.

While many of Israel's aerial assaults on Lebanon were carried out before daybreak on Sunday, they also included an afternoon barrage of a half-dozen rockets that struck the already battered Shiite neighborhoods on the southern edge of Beirut, which sent the few vehicles on the roads scrambling for safety.

The Israeli strikes killed at least one Lebanese soldier, although the army generally has not been involved in the fighting, as well as eight civilians in two southern villages, Ansar and al-Jibbain, Lebanese officials said.

In the coastal town of Tyre, a missile hit a white Toyota in the morning, killing a man inside. North of the town, a van driving toward a United Nations aid convoy was struck by a missile, killing a passenger and wounding the driver, according to United Nations officials.

In addition, at least one member of a small Palestinian faction, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, was killed.

Hezbollah released a statement saying three of its fighters had been killed, but did not provide details.

In another development, Israel said it had captured a Hezbollah militant suspected of involvement in the cross-border raid on July 12, when two Israeli soldiers were seized and taken back to Lebanon, the act that precipitated the war that is now nearly a month old. The suspect was being interrogated in Israel.

With the possibility that a United Nations resolution could win approval in the coming days, there has been speculation that Israel would seek to step up its ground campaign in an attempt to control as much territory as possible before a resolution is adopted.

But Brigadier General Alon Friedman told Israeli radio that "we are not working against time. A cease-fire is the business of the diplomats and the general staff" of the army.

"We are involved mainly in completing plans as we have done over the past days," he said.

Israel has said it is pushing to establish a buffer zone free of Hezbollah fighters, though neither the government nor the military has said exactly how large that zone would be.

Israeli forces are about three or four miles inside Lebanon in some places, and have been operating in 10 to 20 Lebanese villages, according to the military and Israeli media reports.

The Israeli troops have frequently encountered tough combat with Hezbollah, which has built a network of well-guarded posts, underground bunkers and tunnels near the border in the six years since
etc...

Nice to be fair and balanced .


BTW did you mention that initial casualty counts have always been wrong ?

They have always been reported initially higher than actual by HEZBOLLAH ?

I didn't see you mention this .

American technology at its finest. Lets hope the Canadians don't end up in the area....

Actually, Canadians are killing their share in Afghanistan right now.

But, you wouldn't want to see a link from their blog, the diary of a personal soldier, including his pics and videos. Probably not credible for you, because he's not an official journalist.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/mideast.main/index.html

Hot off the wire, theres the link. Israel seems to kill more civilians than Hezbollah could ever hope to.
Nice little bit of jingoistic reporting there. Nothing biased in the openning quote, nope not at all :rolleyes:

Nice little bit of jingoistic reporting there. Nothing biased in the openning quote, nope not at all :rolleyes:
oh come on now, lets not complain about the evil liberal media again. CNN international is as credible as anything else.

oh come on now, lets not complain about the evil liberal media again. CNN international is as credible as anything else.
About as credible as "we never check shit" Reuters.

killing 12 army reservists resting

You'll pardon me if I hold the violins.

Actually, Canadians are killing their share in Afghanistan right now.

In a fully sanctioned UN mission. I was actually referring to the American penchant for "friendly fire". But thats being a bit subtle I suppose. Maybe it would work if it went -

'CANADIANS TORTURED IN ABU GHRAIB MISTAKENLY - ARAFAT TO BLAME'
'"LET ME OOT" SOUNDED LIKE ARABIC TO ME" SAYS SERGEANT R MC NECK"

About as credible as "we never check shit" Reuters.
wait, less credible than "we arent even trying to be fair or balanced anymore" faux news?

killing 12 army reservists resting

You'll pardon me if I hold the violins.

Actually, Canadians are killing their share in Afghanistan right now.

In a fully sanctioned UN mission. I was actually referring to the American penchant for "friendly fire". But thats being a bit subtle I suppose. Maybe it would work if it went -

'CANADIANS TORTURED IN ABU GHRAIB MISTAKENLY - ARAFAT TO BLAME'
'"LET ME OOT" SOUNDED LIKE ARABIC TO ME" SAYS SERGEANT R MC NECK"


Oh, now you're just making it up. Desperate much?

Here's the bit from the Canadians:

The below e-mail is from a Cdn FOO with the Cdn Battle Group in Afghanistan. Video footage of the Battle is available at: www.militaryvideos.net
A CTV news story and additional video is available at:CTV News Link

BATTLE OF PANJAWAI AND BEYOND

Hey everybody! First off I apologize for the length of this email, as it contains two weeks worth of Afghanistan fun. I am doing well and brutally honest I have enjoyed this last couple of weeks. Seven years of training culminating in 14 action packed days. At first I wasn’t going to write a lot of detail about what happened, because some people might find it upsetting. However, when I got back to Kandahar Air Field (KAF) and read the deplorable media coverage that the largest operation Canadians have been involved in since Korea, I really felt I had to write it all down, to give you all (and hopefully everyone you talk to back in Canada) an appreciation for what we are really doing here in this “state of armed conflict” (lawyers say we can’t use the word “war”, I don’t know what the difference is except for it being far more politically correct.)

We received word while down at our Forward Operating Base (FOB) that we were going to be part of a full out three day (HA HA) Battle Group operation. This was going to be the largest operation Canada had undertaken since the Korean War. When we arrived back in KAF for orders we found out that we were rolling for Pashmul in the Panjawai District of Kandahar province. That was hard for my crew to hear, as that was the same town where Nichola had died and where Bombadier Chris Gauthier (a signaler in the party before I arrived) had been injured in an ambush. Participating in this attack were A, B and C Company (Coy.) Groups, both troops of artillery from A Battery, an Engineer squadron, two Companies of Afghan National Army (plus all of their attached American Embedded Training Teams – ETT), as well as a huge lineup of American and British Fixed and Rotary wing aircraft. Additionally, we had elements of the 2/87 US Infantry and 3 Para from the UK conducting blocks to prevent the enemy from escaping. From an Artillery perspective beyond the two gun troops (each equipped with 2 x155mm Howitzers and 4 x 81mm mortars) we had three Forward Observation Officers (FOO) and their parties as well as the Battery Commander and his party going in on the attack.

On the night of the 7th around 2200 hrs local C Company Group (with yours truly attached as their FOO) rolled for Pashmul. As we arrived closer to the objective area we saw the women and children pouring out of the town… not a good sign. We pushed on and about 3 km from our intended Line of Departure to start the operation we were ambushed by Taliban fighters. At around 0030hrs I had my head out of the turret crew commanding my LAV with my night vision monocular on. Two RPG rounds thundered into the ground about 75m from my LAV. For about half a second I stared at them and thought, “huh, so that’s what an RPG looks like.” The sound of AK 7.62mm fire cracking all around the convoy snapped me back to reality and I quickly got down in the turret and we immediately began scanning for the enemy. They were on both sides of us adding to the “fog of war”. We eventually figured out where all of our friendlies were, and where to begin engaging. We let off about 20 rounds of Frangible 25mm from our cannon at guys about a 100m away before we got a major jam in our link ejection chute. We went to our 7.62 coax machine gun, and fired one round before it too jammed!! Boy was I pissed off. I went to jump up on the pintol mounted machine gun, but as I stuck my head out of the LAV I realized the bad guys were still shooting at us and that the Canadian Engineers were firing High Explosive Incendiary 25mm rounds from their cannon right over our front deck. I quickly popped back down realizing that was probably one of the stupider ideas I have ever had in my life J Eventually after much cursing and beating the crap out of the link ejection chute with any blunt instrument we could find in the turret, we were back in the game. The first Troops in Contact (TIC) lasted about two hours. The radio nets were busier than I had ever heard before and we realized that A and B Coys. as well as Reconnaissance Platoon had all been hit simultaneously, showing a degree of coordination not seen before in Afghanistan. The feeling amongst the Company was that was probably it, as the enemy usually just conducted hit and run attacks. Boy, were we wrong! We continued to roll towards our Line of Departure and not five minutes later as we rolled around a corner, I saw B Coy. on our left flank get hit with a volley of about 20 RPGs all bursting in the air over the LAVs. It was an unreal scene to describe. There was no doubt now that we were in a big fight.

We pushed into the town following the Company Commander behind the lead Platoon. This was not LAV friendly country. The entire area was covered in Grape fields, which due to the way they grow them are not passable to LAVs, and acres of Marijuana fields which due to irrigation caused the LAVs to get stuck. The streets were lined with mud compounds and mud walls just barely wide enough to get our cars through. After traveling about 300m our lead platoon came under attack from a grape drying hut in the middle of what can only be described as an urban built up area. The Company Commander then issued a quick set of frag orders and I was about to participate in my first ever Company attack. He signaled for me to dismount and follow him. It was an uncomfortable feeling dismounting from the turret, as the only way out is through the top of the turret. I was standing probably 15 feet high in the air with friendly and hostile rounds snapping and cracking in the air everywhere. Needless to say I got down quick. I went to the back of my LAV and banged on the door to signal we were dismounting. As the Master Bombardier opened the door he went pale as we were only 20m from where they had previously been ambushed and where Nich had died. Regardless, we soldiered on. We grabbed our radios and followed the Company Commander. We went into a compound that was actually the same one Howie Nelson had dropped a 1,000lb bomb on after the attack in May. We went up to a second story ledge on a mud wall, and the Company Commander pointed out a compound and said “can you hit that?” I lased the building and found out it was only 89m away. Back in Canada we never bring Artillery in much closer than a 1000m, so you can imagine what I was thinking. I sat down and did the math (those of you who know my mathematical skills are probably cringing right now!). I looked at him and said that in theory and mathematically we would be okay where we were, but I made him move one of the other Platoons back 150m. A funny story as I was doing the math, an American ETT Captain working with the ANA looked down at me and said “There are no ANA forward of us” I responded “Roger”, to which he said “good” fired three rounds and said “Got him”. I then realized that he had asked me a question and had not stated a fact (for some reason everyone seems to think that the FOO magically knows where all the friendlies are). Through all the gunfire I had missed the infliction in his voice. I looked at him and said, “Hey, I have no idea where your ANA are, you’re supposed to look after them!” Luckily it wasn’t a friendly he had shot at.

We started the Fire Mission with the first round landing about 350m from my position. The noise of Artillery whistling that close and exploding was almost deafening, the FOO course sure hadn’t prepared me for this! Master Bombardier and I debated the correction for a second and eventually agreed upon a Drop 200m, mostly because we needed to get rounds on that compound ASAP as we were taking heavy fire. The round came in and landed a bit left of the compound. We lased the impact and found out it was 105m from us. We gave a small correction and went into Fire For Effect with 50% Ground Burst and 50% Air Burst. The rounds came in 85m from us, right on the compound. Truly I did not appreciate the sheer frightening and awe-inspiring nature of proximity (the air burst rounds). I then had the worst moment of my military career as one of the Sections began shouting “Check Fire, Check Fire!” on the net, followed quickly by their Platoon Commander saying they had casualties and to prepare for a 9 Line (air medical evacuation request). It turned out the two events were unrelated but for a while I thought I had injured or even worse killed a Canadian. In actuality the Section that called Check Firing was actually the furthest of anyone in the Company from the shells and had panicked (which led to a lot of ribbing and jokes from their buddies afterwards who had all been closer). The 9 Line was for an ANA soldier who had been struck 5 minutes before. However unfortunate, I was definitely relieved to here all that.

Day one carried on with several more small skirmishes and me moving from compound to compound to set up Observation Posts (OPs), from which I could support the Company’s movement. I never thought that in my career I would literally be kicking in doors and leading a three man stack, clearing room after room to get to my OPs.

We ended the day, which had seen us in contact for 12 straight hours, by sleeping beside our vehicle in full battle rattle for about an hour with sand fleas biting us. They are the single most ignorant and annoying bug ever. The next morning started off with what seemed like a benign task. We were to clear the grape fields to the south of our objective area. Intelligence said there was nobody there and this would only take us a couple of hours. About an hour into the clearing operation we came under contact from a heavily fortified compound. Unfortunately we had a young fellow killed early in the engagement when the infantry tried to storm the compound. They met fierce resistance, far greater than expected. (I didn’t know the young soldier personally, but do recall thinking how fearless he was a week earlier when I saw him running around the Brit compound with a Portuguese flag right after England had lost in the World Cup. I was impressed by his peers and friends and how professionally they carried on after his death.) After the attempted storming of the compound, the Company Commander came to me and said “right, we tried that the old fashioned way, now I want you to level that compound.” As I was coming up with a plan for how I would do this, we had a call sign I had never heard before check in. It was Mobway 51. Ends up he was a Predator Unmanned Aerial Vehicle armed with a hellfire missile. I don’t know how he knew we needed help or what frequency we were using, and frankly I don’t care, he was a blessing. When the Company Commander asked me what the safety distance for a hellfire was I literally had to go to the reference manual I carry (J Fires Manual) because I had never seen one before and had no idea what it actually could do. I told him the safety distance was 100m. To which he asked how far we were from the compound – the laser said 82m. We debated the ballistic strength of the mud wall beside us and in the end he decided to risk it. Nothing like seeing an entire Company in the fetal position pressed up against a mud wall! The hellfire came in and it was the loudest thing I have ever heard. Three distinct noises: the missile firing, it coming over our heads and the boom. For about 30 seconds we couldn’t see anything but a cloud of dust. Then when the dust settled the Platoons started hooting and hollering. The compound barely even looked the same. (At this point our embedded journalist Christie Blanchford from the Globe and Mail had enough and left us, can’t blame her I guess.) The Company again tried to clear the compound but still met resistance. So we lobbed in 18 artillery shells 82m from us (even closer than the day before) and then brought in two Apache Attack Helicopters. On the second rocket attack (I actually have video of this) the pilot hit the target with his first rocket and the second one went long and landed just on the other side of the mud wall from us. It engulfed us in rocket exhaust, but thankfully no one was hurt. When the hellfire had gone off it had started a small building in the compound on fire and suddenly we started getting secondary explosions off of a weapons cache that was in it. Everything started exploding around us, and the two guys that had not listened to me to press up against the wall got hit with shrapnel, both in the legs. One was the Company Commander’s Signaler, a crazy Newf, who was cracking jokes even with shrapnel in his leg. The medic dealt with him and I went over to the American ETT Captain who was only a few feet from me and began doing first aid on him. He looked liked he was going into shock, until his American Sergeant came up behind me and said “Shit Sir, that’s barely worth wearing a Purple Heart for!” I was surprised how much first aid I actually remembered, and the only difficult part was trying to cut off his pant leg because American combats are designed not to tear, making them particularly difficult to cut! In the end we took the compound and captured a high level Taliban leader who was found by the infantry hiding in a sewage culvert, begging for the shelling to stop. As well, we found a major weapons cache, which the engineers took great delight in blowing up. Unfortunately the assault had cost us one killed, two wounded, a Section commander had blown his knee throwing a grenade and four guys had gone down to extreme heat exhaustion. We found out though that this was a Taliban and Al Qaeda hot bed and that they had been reinforced by Chechen and Tajik fighters (which I guess means we really got a chance to take on Al Qaeda and not just the Taliban).

Day three was uneventful for C Coy. and we prepared to go back to our FOB. Which would have been good because I had come down with a cold… not what I needed in combat (umm, I mean state of armed conflict!) Unfortunately that was not to be. A British Company from 3 Para had been isolated and surrounded by Taliban in the Helmand Province in the Sangin District Center. They were running out of food and were down to boiling river water. They had tried to air drop supplies but they ended up landing in a Taliban stronghold (thank you air force). C Coy. was tasked to conduct an immediate emergency resupply with our LAVs. We headed off to what can only be described as the Wild West. The Company (B Coy) of the Paras that was holding the District Center had lost four soldiers there and was being attacked 3 to 5 times a day. We rolled in there after a long and painful road move across the desert. When we arrived in Sangin the locals began throwing rocks and anything they could at us, this was not a friendly place. We pushed into the District Center, and during the last few hundred meters we began receiving mortar fire. They never taught me on my LAV Crew Commander course how to command a vehicle with all the hatches closed using periscopes in an urban environment. I truly did it by sense of touch, meaning as we hit the wall to the left I would tell the driver to turn a little right!! We resupplied the Brits and unfortunately it turned dark and we couldn’t get out of there, so we had to spend the night. We were attacked with small arms RPGs and mortars three times that night, I still can’t believe that the Brits have spent over a month living there under those conditions. They are a proud unit and they were grateful but embarrassed that we had to come save the day. And as good Canadians we didn’t let them hear the end of being rescued by a bunch of colonials!!

We left Sangin again thinking we were headed home. We made it about 40km before we were called back to reinforce the District Center and help secure a helicopter landing site. As we sat there we received orders that we were now cut to the control of 3 Para for their upcoming operation north of Sangin. This was turning out to be the longest three day operation ever!!! Enroute we were engaged by an 82mm mortar from across a valley. I engaged them with our artillery, it felt a lot more like shooting in Shilo as they were 2.8km away as opposed to the 100m or less my previous engagements had been. We went round for round with them in what Rob, the Troop Commander firing the guns for us, called an indirect fire duel. In the end he said the score was Andrew 1 Taliban O and there is no worry of that mortar ever firing again. We rode all through the night (with my LAV on a flat tire) and arrived right as the Paras Air Assaulted onto the objective with Chinook helicopters. There were helicopters everywhere. It was a hot landing zone and they took intense fire until we arrived with LAVs, and the enemy ran away. It was a different operation as we were used to a lot more intimate support tanks to shoot the Paras in. It was impressive to watch them though, they are unbelievable soldiers.

We left the operation about 25 hours later (still3 going on no sleep) and thought that for sure we were now done this “three day op”. But as we were withdrawing to secure the landing zone for the Brits (under fire from 107mm rockets and 82mm mortars) we received Frag orders to conduct a sensitive sight exploitation where the Division had just dropped two 1000lbs bombs. Good old C Coy. leading the charge again!

We drove to the sight and saw nothing but women and children fleeing the town. I thought, “here we go again.” Luckily this time I found a good position for observation with my LAV and did not have to go in on the attack. The Company quickly came under attack from what was later estimated as 100+ fighters. For about 15 minutes we lost communications with the Company Commander and a whole Section of infantry as they were basically overrun. The Section had last been seen going into a ditch that was subsequently hit with a volley of about 15 RPGs; I thought we had lost them all. I had Brit Apaches check in and they did an absolutely brilliant job at repelling the enemy. The only problem was I couldn’t understand a word the pilot was saying because of his accent! Luckily I had the Brit Liaison Officer riding in the back of my LAV. I ended up using him (a Major) as a very highly paid interpreter to help me out. After about an hour long fight the Company broke contact (but lived up to the nickname the soldiers had given us, “Contact C”) and we leveled several compounds with artillery. Somehow we escaped without a scratch, truly amazing.

We were again ordered back to the Sangin District Center with 3 Para and spent the next few days fighting with the Paras. For four days I did not get a chance to take off my Frag vest, helmet or change my socks, etc. We were attacked 2-3 times a day, and always repelled them decisively. I also discovered during this period that exchanging rations with the Brits is a really bad idea. Not only were they stuck in this miserable place but their food was absolutely horrible!

After saying our good byes to our Brit comrades (the enemy learnt their lesson and finally stopped attacking the place), we again prepared to go back home. Alas, it was not to be again. We were ordered South to take back to towns that the Taliban had just taken. Luckily this time after 11 straight days in contact, C Coy. was the Battle Group reserve. We headed to the British Provincial Reconstruction team (PRT). We rolled into the town to the strangest arrival yet. This was coalition country. The locals (unlike Kandahar and even more so in Sangin) were excited and happy to see us. We had kids offering us candy and water instead of begging. There were no Burkhas. The women were in colorful gowns with their faces exposed. The town was booming with shops everywhere and industry flourishing. We went to the PRT and it didn’t even seem real. I took off my helmet, Flak vest and I had a shower and changed my clothes for the first time in two weeks. I ate a huge fresh meal (until my stomach hurt), and then went and sat on the edge of a water fountain in garden and watched a beach volleyball game between the Brits and Estonians. I laughed as I had supper and watched the BBC (British Broadcasting Company) which was reporting that we had taken back the towns, but H Hour was still 2 hours away, so much for the element of surprise. After what we had been through it was hard to believe this place was in the same country. I slept that night (still on the ground beside my LAV because they did not have enough rooms) better than I think I have before in my life. The next couple of days were quiet for us as they did not need to commit us as the reserve. On day 14 of our 3 day op we conducted the 10 hour road move back to KAF, literally limping back as our cars were so beat up (mine was in the best shape in the entire Company and we had a broken differential … again).

Things look like they will be quieter for us now, and I will be home soon. Sad news from the home front, our little Yorkie, Howitzer, was in an accident the other day and didn’t make it. It won’t be the same going home without him, he truly was one of our kids (furkids!). We had three great years with him though and my only regret is that I wasn’t there to comfort Julianne who has been through so much lately. But she has some great friends there who have looked after her. To those of you who have been with her through this and the events of the last few months, I am forever indebted to you.

There are more stories I could tell of these last two weeks but this email has become long enough as it is and if I did that I would have no war stories (I mean state of armed conflict stories) to tell you when I get home. I will end by saying that I have truly enjoyed this experience. Combat is the ultimate test of an officer, and on several occasions I did things that I didn’t know I was capable of. I am so proud of my crew and the entire Company Group, we soldiered hard and long and showed the enemy that messing with Canadians is a really bad idea. We accomplished something in the last two weeks that Canadian soldiers have not done since Korea. The Afghan Government, elected by the Afghans, requested our assistance and we were able to help. We were the equal, if not superior of our allies in everything we did. I hope that I gave you all an appreciation of what these young brave men and women are doing over here, and even if the media can’t find the time or effort to report what we are doing and the difference we are making, hopefully you can pass it on. I will see all of you real soon. I hope all is well with all of you, and please keep the emails coming, I read every one and enjoy hearing from you, even if I cannot respond individually.

Take Care.

wait, less credible than "we arent even trying to be fair or balanced anymore" faux news?

Actually, from what I gathered they were never ever ever supposed to be fair or balanced. The way they load their guests etc is actually illegal in most parts of europe.

Actually, from what I gathered they were never ever ever supposed to be fair or balanced. The way they load their guests etc is actually illegal in most parts of europe.
You mean the way they give about 10 or more shows to conservative hosts not one to a liberal?

Oh, now you're just making it up. Desperate much?

Here's the bit from the Canadians:

Making what up? That canadians have been hit by friendly fire by Americans? That Americans are known for a bit of friendly fire now and again?
I think not. Are you suffering from "muslim bashing" withdrawal symptoms? Start a thread, you'll feel better.

You mean the way they give about 10 or more shows to conservative hosts not one to a liberal?
Oh, like CBS did for 40 years, the other way around?

Making what up? That canadians have been hit by friendly fire by Americans? That Americans are known for a bit of friendly fire now and again?
I think not. Are you suffering from "muslim bashing" withdrawal symptoms? Start a thread, you'll feel better.
No, you were making up the Abu Gharib part about Canadians being tortured.

Or are you asserting that is fact?

You mean the way they give about 10 or more shows to conservative hosts not one to a liberal?

I'm pretty sure that's legal. :)

No, you were making up the Abu Gharib part about Canadians being tortured.

Or are you asserting that is fact?

Looked like a joke to me.. "Let me oot!" Funny stuff. :p

Actually, from what I gathered they were never ever ever supposed to be fair or balanced. The way they load their guests etc is actually illegal in most parts of europe.

It is illegal to have both sides present in a debate in Europe?

You mean the way they give about 10 or more shows to conservative hosts not one to a liberal?

Actually it was the guests rather than the hosts. Hosts elsewhere must assume impartiality and have one prick from each side (or the various parties). You can't ask party a without inviting parties b and c for comment too. Its down to the different way media developed I think - it used be all state run and that always leaves it open to abuse.

Actually it was the guests rather than the hosts. Hosts elsewhere must assume impartiality and have one prick from each side (or the various parties). You can't ask party a without inviting parties b and c for comment too. Its down to the different way media developed I think - it used be all state run and that always leaves it open to abuse.

And in cases where the opposition refuses to show?

Its down to the different way media developed I think - it used be all state run and that always leaves it open to abuse.

Ah, like National Public Radio here in the US.

If you ever hear a conservative on there, it's because prior to the mid-1990s, you heard NONE on there. Now, in reaction to Congressional pressure on their funding, they now have "token conservatives" - that is, sanitized, and only allowed to speak on shows after 11 PM when few are listening.

Actually it was the guests rather than the hosts. Hosts elsewhere must assume impartiality and have one prick from each side (or the various parties).

And Fox News does do this. The always invite both sides to a debate. Just sometimes one side or the other will decline to participate.

No, you were making up the Abu Gharib part about Canadians being tortured.

Or are you asserting that is fact?

Being a bit touchy? Read the orginal post.


(If there is a sergeant R MC Neck convicted of torturing Canadians in Abu Ghraib, my condolences to you and your loved ones.)

It is illegal to have both sides present in a debate in Europe?

Numbers show they load it about 60/40 on Fox.


Looked like a joke to me.. "Let me oot!" Funny stuff.

Thanks. I think laughing boy is just being obtuse.


And in cases where the opposition refuses to show?

" we asked x for a spokesman but they said no one was available for comment" Classic line on brit TV, particularily when the shit hits the fan.

.

Numbers show they load it about 60/40 on Fox.

I would like to see those numbers.

" we asked x for a spokesman but they said no one was available for comment" Classic line on brit TV, particularily when the shit hits the fan.

And you know what? Fox News does use that line when someone decides not to speak.

" we asked x for a spokesman but they said no one was available for comment" Classic line on brit TV, particularily when the shit hits the fan.

.

Yeah, same here.. usually in the case of an indefensible position being held, or a politician thinking a particular program is "beneath" him/her.. or genuine inability to get to the studio, I'm sure.

And Fox News does do this. The always invite both sides to a debate. Just sometimes one side or the other will decline to participate.
Although their hosts are far from impartial. Most are conservative and the ones that arent just report(but those are few)

"The "signature political news show" of the Fox News Channel, Special Report with Brit Hume, was found to have a strong bias in their choice of guests, overwhelmingly choosing conservatives over 'non-conservatives' to appear in interviews. This was the finding of the media watchdog group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), noted in a study taken across a 19 week period from June 2003 to December 2003. They found the ratio of conservative guests to liberals to be 50:6. [13]
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies_and_allegations_of_bias#Reports.2C_polls_and_studies

You can use wiki to link to the actual studies, the links are at the bottom.

Although their hosts are far from impartial. Most are conservative and the ones that arent just report(but those are few)

They have journalists on the ground right now on both sides of the border reporting what each side is saying at the moment. Of course, the other networks do as well.

Also, they do have commentators and as such, do not have to be fair or balanced. Other networks also have commentators who do the samething.

"The "signature political news show" of the Fox News Channel, Special Report with Brit Hume, was found to have a strong bias in their choice of guests, overwhelmingly choosing conservatives over 'non-conservatives' to appear in interviews. This was the finding of the media watchdog group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), noted in a study taken across a 19 week period from June 2003 to December 2003. They found the ratio of conservative guests to liberals to be 50:6. [13]
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies_and_allegations_of_bias#Reports.2C_polls_and_studies

You can use wiki to link to the actual studies, the links are at the bottom.

So why did you not post those links then?

oh and I love this: (Redirected from Fox News Channel controversies and allegations of bias)

On top of that, the main article is having its neutrality disputed.

"The "signature political news show" of the Fox News Channel, Special Report with Brit Hume, was found to have a strong bias in their choice of guests, overwhelmingly choosing conservatives over 'non-conservatives' to appear in interviews. This was the finding of the media watchdog group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), noted in a study taken across a 19 week period from June 2003 to December 2003. They found the ratio of conservative guests to liberals to be 50:6. [13]
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies_and_allegations_of_bias#Reports.2C_polls_and_studies

You can use wiki to link to the actual studies, the links are at the bottom.


There are similar studies done by watchdog groups that show the same pattern in NPR (paid for by the government), CBS, NBC, ABC, and CNN. And in papers like the New York Times, Washington Post, and Los Angeles Times.

People in the US have been complaining about it for years - that's why when Fox showed up on cable, it buried the other networks because people were tired of hearing the crap that Walter Cronkite admitted after his retirement was intentionally, purely, and completely biased against the right.

They have journalists on the ground right now on both sides of the border reporting what each side is saying at the moment. Of course, the other networks do as well.
Oh really? Because when I left a couple weeks ago they only had people in Israel, when everyone else also had people in Lebanon

Also, they do have commentators and as such, do not have to be fair or balanced. Other networks also have commentators who do the samething.
They dont have any many conservatives though

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/mideast.main/index.html

Hot off the wire, theres the link. Israel seems to kill more civilians than Hezbollah could ever hope to.
You know, a hezbollasshole who's not wearing a uniform is often listed as a civilian. Plus Hezbolla likes to hide it's rocket launchers in apartment buildings and among homes. It's part of their strategy for making Israel look bad.

I can't blame Israel for most of the civilian casualties. If someone is shooting at your people from within a foreign population it's your responsibility to protect your own regardless of casualties among the enemy's civilians.

Oh really? Because when I left a couple weeks ago they only had people in Israel, when everyone else also had people in Lebanon

I was just watching and they have someone in Tyre and I know they had someone in Beirut.

They dont have any many conservatives though

And you say there is a problem with Fox News for not having enough liberal commentators?

Soviestan, I like you more and more lately.

As for the topic, par for the course, isn't it?

So why did you not post those links then?

oh and I love this: (Redirected from Fox News Channel controversies and allegations of bias)

On top of that, the main article is having its neutrality disputed.
What? Is poor liddul Alleghany incapable of clicking those links himself?

And what of the title? You disagree that it's not a controversial topic?

ANd, oh what a surprise! Someone writes an article accusing a News org of being biased and someone else out there disagrees.

Who wooda thunk that?


So anyway, what was your point again?

I mean other than to prove how much of an obstinate and recalcitrant curmudgeon you are.

FOX simply has hosts and anchors that actually ASK TOUGH QUESTIONS to people like the Syrian amabassadors to the US and UN instead of those bobble heads over at CNN who ask the same regurgitated questions and and let the guests on the show completely dodge the question, allowing for the propoganda to be spewed with no counter question. It's really pathetic.

On the note of the 40 dead...lets not forget Qana where supposedly 58 people were killed but only 28 bodies could be found.

On the note of the 40 dead...lets not forget Qana where supposedly 58 people were killed but only 28 bodies could be found.

Yep.

Yes, like the many thousands killed by american soldiers, the lebanese civilians can die knowing they died for a "good cause". (It seems ironic actually, in both wars that the powers that be don't seem to notice that killing the enemy leads to greater retaliation?)


killing 12 army reservists resting

You'll pardon me if I hold the violins.

Actually, Canadians are killing their share in Afghanistan right now.

In a fully sanctioned UN mission. I was actually referring to the American penchant for "friendly fire". But thats being a bit subtle I suppose. Maybe it would work if it went -

'CANADIANS TORTURED IN ABU GHRAIB MISTAKENLY - ARAFAT TO BLAME'
'"LET ME OOT" SOUNDED LIKE ARABIC TO ME" SAYS SERGEANT R MC NECK"

FOX simply has hosts and anchors that actually ASK TOUGH QUESTIONS to people like the Syrian amabassadors.
And ASK TOUGH QUESTIONS to people like Rumsfield. Like how many steps he takes each day, how many one-arm push-ups he can do and how People magazine named him one of its sexiest men.

Yes, like the many thousands killed by american soldiers, the lebanese civilians can die knowing they died for a "good cause". (It seems ironic actually, in both wars that the powers that be don't seem to notice that killing the enemy leads to greater retaliation?)

Hezbollah killed the civilians by using them for cover.

Hezbollah is also responsible for this and the resulting counter strikes .



Nice to be fair and balanced .


BTW did you mention that initial casualty counts have always been wrong ?

They have always been reported initially higher than actual by HEZBOLLAH ?

I didn't see you mention this .

On the note of the 40 dead...lets not forget Qana where supposedly 58 people were killed but only 28 bodies could be found.

Let's not forget how CNN admitted they were manipulated by Hezbollah. Or how in the past they were manipulated by Hussein. And how they presented those manipulated stories as fact, from "the most trusted name in news".

Back on July 18, Hezbollah took Robertson and his crew on a tour of a heavily damaged south Beirut neighborhood. The Hezbollah "press officer" even instructed the CNN camera: "Just look. Shoot. Look at this building. Is it a military base? Is it a military base, or just civilians living in this building?"


In his original story, Robertson had no complaints about the journalistic limitations of a story put together under such tight controls, and Robertson himself at one point seemed to agree with the Hezbollah propaganda claim that Israeli jets had targeted a civilian area: "As we run past the rubble, we see much that points to civilian life, no evidence apparent of military equipment."

Challenged by Reliable Sources host (and Washington Post media writer) Howard Kurtz on Sunday, Robertson suggested Hezbollah has "very, very sophisticated and slick media operations," that the terrorist group "had control of the situation. They designated the places that we went to, and we certainly didn't have time to go into the houses or lift up the rubble to see what was underneath," and he even contradicted Hezbollah's self-serving spin: "There's no doubt that the [Israeli] bombs there are hitting Hezbollah facilities."

But the closest Robertson came to making any of these points in the taped package that aired last week was admitting that "we [he and his CNN crew] didn't go burrowing into all the houses," after pointing out (for the second time) that "we didn't see any military type of equipment" in the area Hezbollah chose to let them tour.

And the Eason Jordan incident, where he put crap news out supporting Hussein.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eason_Jordan

On April 11, 2003, Jordan revealed that CNN knew about human rights abuses committed in Iraq by Saddam Hussein since 1990, but the network refrained from coverage of them in order to gain better access to information on Hussein's government. Jordan maintained that complete reporting would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqi informants, and confidentiality was ensured to protect the lives of anti-Hussein Iraqi activists and translators.

ANd a new update. Only 1 person killed, not 40 like they initially lied. ANd Hezbollah continues to directly and intentionally target civilians.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

Lebanese PM now says 1 killed in strike
AP - 8 minutes ago

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Lebanon's prime minister said Monday that one person had been killed in an Israeli air raid on the southern village of Houla, lowering the death toll from 40. Meanwhile, in northern Israel, scores of Hezbollah rockets wounded five people, rescue workers said. Both sides appeared to take advantage of the days before a cease-fire resolution, formulated by the U.S. and France, is put to a vote in the U.N. Security Council.

ANd a new update. Only 1 person killed, not 40 like they initially lied. ANd Hezbollah continues to directly and intentionally target civilians.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

Lebanese PM now says 1 killed in strike
AP - 8 minutes ago

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Lebanon's prime minister said Monday that one person had been killed in an Israeli air raid on the southern village of Houla, lowering the death toll from 40. Meanwhile, in northern Israel, scores of Hezbollah rockets wounded five people, rescue workers said. Both sides appeared to take advantage of the days before a cease-fire resolution, formulated by the U.S. and France, is put to a vote in the U.N. Security Council.

Goes to show that we cannot trust what is coming out of Lebanon all that much.

I think 1 person is a much different amount than 40 people.

Goes to show that we cannot trust what is coming out of Lebanon all that much.

Maybe they were counting each photograph taken as a different person. It would follow the precedent.

Maybe they were counting each photograph taken as a different person. It would follow the precedent.

Sad but I can not disagree with you :(

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/mideast.main/index.html

Hot off the wire, theres the link. Israel seems to kill more civilians than Hezbollah could ever hope to.
hot off the wire reports aren't all they are cracked up to be eh?

It seems that the Lebanese Prime Minister was full of shit when he claimed that an Israeli airstrike "massacred" Lebanese civilians. Turns out only one person was killed in the attack, bringing the total down from the original 40, to merely 1. Hmmm...are we beginning to see a pattern emerge here? Thank G-d for the internet and the information age we live in, where propoganda and lies will no longer be tolerated as fact.

PS...the LOVELY BBC has changed their story itself to read one killed, yet on their main page they have yet change the headline as of 12:00 PM Eastern Standard Time.

EDIT: The BBC has updated it's site

linkage: www.bbc.co.uk

"An Israeli air strike kills more than 40 people in a southern Lebanese village, Lebanon's prime minister says."

Wrong:

And as it looks, they weren't lying before either, unless you claim that the Lebanese PM never said 40.


I said as of 12:00 EST....it took them a tad bit longer but they finally did change it...

Hmmm...are we beginning to see a pattern emerge here?


The pattern I see is people repeatedly displaying callous inhumanity through their intentional actions. What pattern do you see?

I said as of 12:00 EST....it took them a tad bit longer but they finally did change it...

So what your beef with the bbc then? They're accurate according to the currently available information.

So what your beef with the bbc then? They're accurate according to the currently available information.


No, they were quite late in running that story on their site...everyone else had changed it immediately.

"An Israeli air strike kills more than 40 people in a southern Lebanese village, Lebanon's prime minister says."
What the Hell do you think the Lebanese PM is supposed to be, anyway - a fucking referee? You think he's out there with a whistle and a striped jersey?

You're as presumptive an armchair quarterback as I've ever encountered on these fora.

If you're all hot and bothered, catch a goddamn plane to Beirut with a pen and a tally-sheet and get counting.

The pattern I see is people repeatedly displaying callous inhumanity through their intentional actions. What pattern do you see?


The pattern I see is the constant inflating of casualty numbers by Lebanese officials to further inflame the propoganda war against the Jewish state.

I said as of 12:00 EST....it took them a tad bit longer but they finally did change it...Indeed. Sue them for your inconvienence ;)

The pattern I see is the constant inflating of casualty numbers by Lebanese officials to further inflame the propoganda war against the Jewish state.
The pattern I see is the constant pointing of pudgy American fingers.

The pattern I see is the constant inflating of casualty numbers by Lebanese officials to further inflame the propoganda war against the Jewish state.

And theres no propaganda war against Arabs, Qana didnt happen, yada yada yada...

What the Hell do you think the Lebanese PM is supposed to be, anyway - a fucking referee? You think he's out there with a whistle and a striped jersey?

You're as presumptive an armchair quarterback as I've ever encountered on these fora.

If you're all hot and bothered, catch a goddamn plane to Beirut with a pen and a tally-sheet and get counting.

i think his beef is the baghdad bob mentality in the lebanese reporting. If i recall, there was a lebanese photographer who was just sacked for manipulating images...

What the Hell do you think the Lebanese PM is supposed to be, anyway - a fucking referee? You think he's out there with a whistle and a striped jersey?

You're as presumptive an armchair quarterback as I've ever encountered on these fora.

If you're all hot and bothered, catch a goddamn plane to Beirut with a pen and a tally-sheet and get counting.


I think he's a respectable public official who should act in accordance. He should not blatantly spew false information to further his goal of demeaning Israel. You hear there's an airtstrike...you wait until confirmation. You don't go out yelling and screaming massacre especially when ther eis such a discrepency between the two figures. The problem with this is that it inflames Israel hatred and brings down Israel by damaging it's image.

The pattern I see is the constant inflating of casualty numbers by Lebanese officials to further inflame the propoganda war against the Jewish state.
No shit. I don't doubt that being in charge of a country that is being bombed makes you the model of objectivity. What were the numbers of dead like on September 11th?

No shit. I don't doubt that being in charge of a country that is being bombed makes you the model of objectivity. What were the numbers of dead like on September 11th?
3000ish. A number that i don't think was inflated when it was reported. What's your point?

The pattern I see is the constant inflating of casualty numbers by Lebanese officials to further inflame the propoganda war against the Jewish state.

And this is supported by this instance where, according to all the facts available to him when he made his first announcement all the indicators were that 40 people had actually died? Yes? How, exactly?

The pattern I see is the constant pointing of pudgy American fingers.
as an american i take offense to this post. It's as close to flamebait i've seen in a long while.

No shit. I don't doubt that being in charge of a country that is being bombed makes you the model of objectivity. What were the numbers of dead like on September 11th?
I recall hearing numbers like 9,000 kicked around - with the number of dead magically reducing for weeks afterward. Shame on the referees from the Whitehouse for inflating the scoring.

And theres no propaganda war against Arabs, Qana didnt happen, yada yada yada...


We know that Qana was exaggerated. The body count proves that. We also know that the pictures taken at Qana were done by the same photographer who doctored other photos for his own purposes. We don't claim it never happened. And if people do have those thoughts, they haven't been broadcasting them as fact..merely as speculation and alternative causes and reasoning other than the easy "Israel did it on purpose" card.

as an american i take offense to this post. It's as close to flamebait i've seen in a long while.
Then go complain about it.

I think he's a respectable public official who should act in accordance. He should not blatantly spew false information to further his goal of demeaning Israel. You hear there's an airtstrike...you wait until confirmation. You don't go out yelling and screaming massacre especially when ther eis such a discrepency between the two figures. The problem with this is that it inflames Israel hatred and brings down Israel by damaging it's image.Why on earth do you expect him to not hate the country that is attacking his?

And this is supported by this instance where, according to all the facts available to him when he made his first announcement all the indicators were that 40 people had actually died? Yes? How, exactly?
what was the indication 40 ppl had died? obviously it wasn't bodies or parts of bodies.

3000ish. A number that i don't think was inflated when it was reported. What's your point?
That wasn't the number kicked around initially, nor for months afterward. As a sentient being, I find your post insulting. It's the closest thing to flame-baiting I've seen since you brought it up.

Then go complain about it.
well, if you want to continue your attitude about it... done.

Why on earth do you expect him to not hate the country that is attacking his?


He can personally hate Israel as much as he wants...but don't lie about the death of your own people to try and get backing from the rest of the world.

That wasn't the number kicked around initially, nor for months afterward.
IIRC, the number grew to the 3000 mark. There may have been some _speculation_ that the number was higher, but it wasn't stated as fact.

I think he's a respectable public official who should act in accordance. He should not blatantly spew false information to further his goal of demeaning Israel. You hear there's an airtstrike...you wait until confirmation. You don't go out yelling and screaming massacre especially when ther eis such a discrepency between the two figures. The problem with this is that it inflames Israel hatred and brings down Israel by damaging it's image.
My god... You have absolutely no perspective on things do you? Complete tunnelvision? You think the man in charge of the country being obliterated gives a rats ass about preserving Israels image??

IIRC, the number grew to the 3000 mark. There may have been some _speculation_ that the number was higher, but it wasn't stated as fact.
Revisionist claptrap. The numbers at the WTC reduced to 3000, they didn't grow to 3000.

Keep dreaming in technicolor, there pally.

My god... You have absolutely no perspective on things do you? Complete tunnelvision? You think the man in charge of the country being obliterated gives a rats ass about preserving Israels image??
no, but he doesn't hafta pull a baghdad bob.

My god... You have absolutely no perspective on things do you? Complete tunnelvision? You think the man in charge of the country being obliterated gives a rats ass about preserving Israels image??

Obliterated according to Reuters and their photographers? Obliterated according to who? Obliterated is an overstatement.


The PM of Lebanon can be pissed and hate Israel as much as he wants..but to lie to the world about his casualties to inflame WORLDWIDE hatred of Israel is wrong.

Revisionist claptrap. The numbers at the WTC reduced to 3000, they didn't grow to 3000.

Keep dreaming in technicolor, there pally.
i wish i could dream in technicolor...

Revisionist claptrap. The numbers at the WTC reduced to 3000, they didn't grow to 3000.

Keep dreaming in technicolor, there pally.
you're both making claims, how bout you both back them up, rather than what you are doing.

"Nyah Nyah, you're wrong cuz I'm right".

...
The PM of Lebanon can be pissed and hate Israel as much as he wants..but to lie to the world about his casualties to inflame WORLDWIDE hatred of Israel is wrong.
i don't think he cares if it's wrong or not :p and apparently neither do a few of the posters here.

Obliterated is an overstatement.
I'll be sure to pass that along to the families and friends of the 903 killed and the 3,293 injured by the IDF. Oh wait, I can't - not until the 913,000 displaced Lebanese can return to their homes.

Yeah, overstatement. That's it.

3000ish. A number that i don't think was inflated when it was reported. What's your point?When did that number get corrected? How many days? Two years later, the death toll was reduced by forty, after continuous decreases. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/10/29/wtc.deaths/)
The point is, the PM isn't going to be objective. He has an agenda, specifically to get Israel to stop destroying Lebanon. And since he doesn't trust people that are bombing him and at the same time claiming they're doing what's in Lebanon's interest, he's more likely to be inclined to convince the world that Israelis are murderers so they'll do something about it. He will most likely believe the worst news, just like George Bush decided to believe that Iraq was only seconds from selling chemical agents to terror groups. Only the consequences of blowing this out of proportion aren't comparable.

He can personally hate Israel as much as he wants...but don't lie about the death of your own people to try and get backing from the rest of the world.Just like you're not supposed to lie about weapons programs from other countries and bitch about how the world won't help you take them down?

IIRC, the number grew to the 3000 mark. There may have been some _speculation_ that the number was higher, but it wasn't stated as fact.No. See my post above. There's a source that affirms the opposite.

According to the article Laerod posted, the initial numbers on the WTC were over 6,000.

Indeed. Sue them for your inconvienence ;)


It is more than just "inconvenience". The BBC has been hell bent on demonizing Israel. They are anti - freedom and have worked tirelessly to create an impression that the West (esp. Israel and America) are evil.

My god... You have absolutely no perspective on things do you? Complete tunnelvision? You think the man in charge of the country being obliterated gives a rats ass about preserving Israels image??
Well that's the thing, see, it's not being obliterated. He's just making false claims that it is in order to distract attention from the fact that this war is the direct consequence of his government's ignoring their responsibility to disarm Hezbollah.

I'll be sure to pass that along to the families and friends of the 903 killed and the 3,293 injured by the IDF. Oh wait, I can't - not until the 913,000 displaced Lebanese can return to their homes.

Yeah, overstatement. That's it.

I wasn't saying people weren't dying..I said Lebanon wasn't being "obliterated."

How do you feel about the dead Israelis and the one million displaced Israelis? I guess Jewish flesh is cheaper than Arab flesh.

It is more than just "inconvenience". The BBC has been hell bent on demonizing Israel. They are anti - freedom and have worked tirelessly to create an impression that the West (esp. Israel and America) are evil.You keep believing that. I won't bother wasting my time in trying to stop you ;)

Well the BBC did apparently update so that is good. I just wish that the PM stops sensationalizing everything. It does nothing to help the peace process.

Yes, yes, all is well in Beirut, everyone knows dropping bombs on civilians does no harm at all, in fact, the bombs emit a cloud of happy gas and instead of making craters, flowers, rainbows and candy sprout instantly where the bombs impact.


Here is a photo of Beirut taken half an hour ago:
http://charon.nmsu.edu/~aklypin/Art/Bosch/bosch_garden_center.JPG

I wasn't saying people weren't dying..I said Lebanon wasn't being "obliterated."

How do you feel about the dead Israelis and the one million displaced Israelis? I guess Jewish flesh is cheaper than Arab flesh.I weigh human life equally, and Lebanon has a much higher body count. I suggest you consider that when you put Israeli suffering on par with Lebanese suffering, lest someone think you might believe that "Jewish flesh" is more valuable than "Arab flesh"...

It is more than just "inconvenience". The BBC has been hell bent on demonizing Israel. They are anti - freedom and have worked tirelessly to create an impression that the West (esp. Israel and America) are evil.

The BBC is the only large scale news organisation I'm aware of that doesn't have to pander to advertisers and worry too much about selling itself to viewers due to it unique funding. This gives it large latitude to report the news in the way it sees fit and as such it is independant of many of the outside influences that other news sources have to work under.

As for the 'anti-freedom' comment, the BBC isn't American and neither are most of it's users, we don't consider that the insult Americans seem to so try harder next time ;)

According to the article Laerod posted, the initial numbers on the WTC were over 6,000.
There is a different between estimating 6700 dead versus stating as fact that 40 had died.

another interesting thing about the lebanese/israeli conflict:

http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/08/extreme-makeover-beirut-edition.html

http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/08/extreme-makeover-beirut-edition.html
You think there's anything even remotely funny about all this?

Forget my earlier mild jab about "pudgy fingers". You sir, are an utter asshat. Shut up.

There is a different between estimating 6700 dead versus stating as fact that 40 had died.

another interesting thing about the lebanese/israeli conflict:

http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/08/extreme-makeover-beirut-edition.html
Yeah, the first one was wrong by over 3000.

Another interesting thing about the conflict (from the BBC article):
More than 900 Lebanese, most of them civilians, have been killed in the conflict, the Lebanese government says. More than 90 Israelis, most of them soldiers, have also been killed.

Yeah, the first one was wrong by over 3000.

Another interesting thing about the conflict (from the BBC article):

And how would we know that none of those 900 were indeed hezbollah?

You think there's anything even remotely funny about all this?

Forget my earlier mild jab about "pudgy fingers". You sir, are an utter asshat. Shut up.
funny as in suspicious. not as in humorous haha funny.

however, your response i do find in the haha funny category :p

*edit*

also, where did i say i find it funny? I said interesting.

And how would we know that none of those 900 were indeed hezbollah?
Indeed, how would the IDF know that any of them were Hezbollah? Must have their infidel-detector beanies working overtime.

Yeah, the first one was wrong by over 3000.

Another interesting thing about the conflict (from the BBC article):
because there are alot more ppl in the world trade center than the building where 40 supposedly died. IMO, that's why the numbers were so far apart.

as far as the lebanese conflict, i'm not happy that civilians are being killed. i don't condone the israeli attacks. But like you, i'm in no position to stop it.

And how would we know that none of those 900 were indeed hezbollah?
i think we could rule out the women and children...

i think we could rule out the women and children...

Yea I will agree there.

And how would we know that none of those 900 were indeed hezbollah?We know for a fact that some of them are Hezbullah, as you will notice when you read the bit about "most of the 900 are civilians". Now, the source is the Lebanese government, meaning the number could well go down. Also, you can consider that Lebanon is rather chaotic at the moment, meaning the number will fluctuate as missing people are found alive and more corpses are discovered.
But no where does anyone allege that all 900 were innocent civilians, if that's what you mean (with the possible exception of Hezbullah claiming it hasn't had any casualties...;))

because there are alot more ppl in the world trade center than the building where 40 supposedly died. IMO, that's why the numbers were so far apart.

as far as the lebanese conflict, i'm not happy that civilians are being killed. i don't condone the israeli attacks. But like you, i'm in no position to stop it.
And that's the thing, neither is the PM, and he's the one of the highest figures of authority in that country. Think of that when you condemn him for what he says. :)

We know for a fact that some of them are Hezbullah, as you will notice when you read the bit about "most of the 900 are civilians". Now, the source is the Lebanese government, meaning the number could well go down. Also, you can consider that Lebanon is rather chaotic at the moment, meaning the number will fluctuate as missing people are found alive and more corpses are discovered.
But no where does anyone allege that all 900 were innocent civilians, if that's what you mean (with the possible exception of Hezbullah claiming it hasn't had any casualties...;))

True true! As to Hezbollah, I do not trust anything that comes from them.

funny as in suspicious. not as in humorous haha funny.

however, your response i do find in the haha funny category :p

*edit*

also, where did i say i find it funny? I said interesting.
Just report him to the mods. Make a thread in Moderation to do so.

And that's the thing, neither is the PM, and he's the one of the highest figures of authority in that country. Think of that when you condemn him for what he says. :)
i think it's more of the way he said it versus what he said that gets ppl riled up.

i still want to know how they determined 40 was killed. But i agree, it would be hard to be objective in his position.

What the Hell do you think the Lebanese PM is supposed to be, anyway - a fucking referee? You think he's out there with a whistle and a striped jersey?


That's the way the world press views the Lebanese PM - as though everything out of his mouth was the God's honest truth, unvarnished and unembellished.

i still want to know how they determined 40 was killed.

Well, they probably saw the building destroyed, found out how many were in it, and assumed most had died.

Seems most got lucky.


In fact, yes, I do believe that's what the article says. Your question is answered.

Well, they probably saw the building destroyed, found out how many were in it, and assumed most had died.

Seems most got lucky.


In fact, yes, I do believe that's what the article says. Your question is answered.
the first article i read didn't say anything but that one setence that stated the number 40 was retracted to 1. Found a different article that detailed there was a bomb shelter under the house that was hit.

3000ish. A number that i don't think was inflated when it was reported. What's your point?
Amazing what a little-known internet invention called Google can bring up.

The changes to the official death toll were:
6700 on September 25, 2001;
3478 on November 28, 2001;
2819 on August 20, 2002;
2801 on September 11, 2002;
2792 in December 2002;
2752 in October 2003.

In the hours after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani refused to speculate on how many people had died, saying only, "The number of casualties will be more than most of us can bear." But it wasn't long before Giuliani and other New York officials began to make more exact calculations. Two days after the attacks, the mayor told the press that 94 people were confirmed dead and 4,763 people were missing at the World Trade Center. A few days later, Giuliani bumped up those numbers, reporting that there were 201 confirmed dead and 5,422 missing. And a few days after that, he announced that the number of confirmed dead stood at 300 and the number of those missing--and presumed dead--stood at a staggering 6,347.

That, however, would prove to be the highest death toll estimate at the World Trade Center, because starting in late September, after New York officials had had more time to assess the situation at Ground Zero and double check lists of the missing, they began revising down the casualty figures--first by the hundreds, then by the thousands until, months later, the official World Trade Center death toll stood at 2,752, less than half the number Giuliani had once reported.

Well, they probably saw the building destroyed, found out how many were in it, and assumed most had died.

Seems most got lucky.

In fact, yes, I do believe that's what the article says. Your question is answered.

Basic PR Advice:

1. If the enemy attacks you, the only victims are innocent women, children, old people, and babies. Especially babies.

2. If a building is destroyed, and you want a count of how many were killed (since it will be a week before you can lift the slabs of concrete off of anyone who might have been inside), take the number of square meters of floor space and divide by four.

3. Of course, none of your soldiers were killed or wounded in the heinous attacks (any of them) and none of your equipment was damaged or destroyed (at all, since the beginning of the war).

4. Follow up by accusing the enemy of deliberately targeting civilians, executing prisoners, running death camps, and say they're just like Hitler.

True true! As to Hezbollah, I do not trust anything that comes from them.The Israeli figures are going to be more exact, as there's less carnage and chaos to sift through. Apart from Hezbullah distorting figures, there's rubble and a general collapse of information systems that warps casualty figures.

Amazing what a little-known internet invention called Google can bring up.

The changes to the official death toll were:
6700 on September 25, 2001;
3478 on November 28, 2001;
2819 on August 20, 2002;
2801 on September 11, 2002;
2792 in December 2002;
2752 in October 2003.

your point might in fact be correct.. but the article u qouted actually does nothing to help your argument. The article shows Guliani differentiating between known deaths and people "missing" and the "estimated dead". That is all quite different then stating 6000+ people were killed. One shoudln't cloud facts and come to misleading conclusions.

Amazing what a little-known internet invention called Google can bring up.

The changes to the official death toll were:
6700 on September 25, 2001;
3478 on November 28, 2001;
2819 on August 20, 2002;
2801 on September 11, 2002;
2792 in December 2002;
2752 in October 2003.
indeed. as i stated earlier, i stand corrected on my IIRC, and those were estimated numbers. unlike the "factual ones" the PM is giving.

Basic PR Advice:

1. If the enemy attacks you, the only victims are innocent women, children, old people, and babies. Especially babies.

2. If a building is destroyed, and you want a count of how many were killed (since it will be a week before you can lift the slabs of concrete off of anyone who might have been inside), take the number of square meters of floor space and divide by four.

3. Of course, none of your soldiers were killed or wounded in the heinous attacks (any of them) and none of your equipment was damaged or destroyed (at all, since the beginning of the war).

4. Follow up by accusing the enemy of deliberately targeting civilians, executing prisoners, running death camps, and say they're just like Hitler.

Meh...That works both ways:

1. Always claim "They started it" and you're simply fighting for survival.

2. Claim everyone hit is the enemy, otherwise they wouldn't have been hit. Calculating how many got hit goes like this: Take the number of people who were killed and say they were terrorists.

3. Always claim total destruction of the enemy no matter what you hit. (That ambulance contained rockets, tanks and Saddam Hussain)

4. Follow up by accusing the enemy of deliberately targeting civilians, executing prisoners, running death camps and say they're just like Hitler.

the first article i read didn't say anything but that one setence that stated the number 40 was retracted to 1. Found a different article that detailed there was a bomb shelter under the house that was hit.

Second paragraph of the main BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5252842.stm):

"They thought that the whole building smashed on the heads of 40 people," Fouad Siniora told reporters in Beirut. "Thank God that they have been saved."

I guess the people at the other end of the phone had as much clue as Americans did a month after New York got owned. So what's new? It's pretty tricky to do a bodycount when your "confirmation" is a phone call.

I guess the spokesmen have to jump into helicopters and visit the morgues themselves before making any statements. Heh, the skies over Lebanon would look like a frigging airlift.

I guess the people at the other end of the phone had as much clue as Americans did a month after New York got owned. So what's new? It's pretty tricky to do a bodycount when your "confirmation" is a phone call.

I guess the spokesmen have to jump into helicopters and visit the morgues themselves before making any statements. Heh, the skies over Lebanon would look like a frigging airlift.

What I've found hilarious is that they say civilians can't move on the roads - impassable and dangerous.

Yet they manage to have Hezbollah-escorted convoys of journalists taken straight to the scenes of some of these bomb hits.

So, is it really that Israel has crushed all road traffic and kills everything that moves, and thus civilians are trapped, or is it true that journalists are driving in convoys unharmed?

Second paragraph of the main BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5252842.stm):

"They thought that the whole building smashed on the heads of 40 people," Fouad Siniora told reporters in Beirut. "Thank God that they have been saved."
i didn't read the bbc article, but one off of drudgereport.

...after New York got owned....

well, that's a damned callous way of putting it.

The pattern I see is the constant inflating of casualty numbers by Lebanese officials to further inflame the propoganda war against the Jewish state.


O....its a variation on the law of Gibson. Everything and anything can be explained by the fact that

THEY ALL HATE THE JEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lovely.

O....its a variation on the law of Gibson.....

haha. i was watching tv the other night, craig kilborn show, and he had a SNL guy on there and was saying shit like, "yah, he gibson'd it" and stupid stuff like that. hilarious.

well, that's a damned callous way of putting it.

I tend to think of it as Counterstrike, and on 9-11, we heard the voice say, "Terrorists win".

We've been playing non-stop ever since. The first thing that Zarqawi heard after being pulled from the wreckage of his safe house was, "Counterterrorists win."

It seems that the Lebanese Prime Minister was full of shit when he claimed that an Israeli airstrike "massacred" Lebanese civilians. Turns out only one person was killed in the attack, bringing the total down from the original 40, to merely 1. Hmmm...are we beginning to see a pattern emerge here? Thank G-d for the internet and the information age we live in, where propoganda and lies will no longer be tolerated as fact.

PS...the LOVELY BBC has changed their story itself to read one killed, yet on their main page they have yet change the headline as of 12:00 PM Eastern Standard Time.

EDIT: The BBC has updated it's site

linkage: www.bbc.co.uk

"An Israeli air strike kills more than 40 people in a southern Lebanese village, Lebanon's prime minister says."


So what else is new ? how about the pictures of the F16 dropping flares...they photo shoped and said were missiles ?:D And all of the rest of the Bullshit comming out of Lebenon ...dead kid being recycled ....50 + casualties ...revised to 20...etc. etc...fake burning buildings...the press seems to think they are all Michael Moore .:D A guy from 1996 photo's show as a rescuer of a the same dead body in 2006...:D


Hmmmm ....WTF ?

What I've found hilarious is that they say civilians can't move on the roads - impassable and dangerous.

Yet they manage to have Hezbollah-escorted convoys of journalists taken straight to the scenes of some of these bomb hits.

So, is it really that Israel has crushed all road traffic and kills everything that moves, and thus civilians are trapped, or is it true that journalists are driving in convoys unharmed?
Both are equally true.

It's a question of how much risk one is willing to take. Civilians traditionally are not willing to take much. Warzone journalists are willing to take much more, and professional military, a hell of a lot. Experienced soldiers and keyboard warriors alike, will look at a situation and say, "Pfft, this is gonna be easy..." - especially if they have a 4x4 - families with young kids who have to walk on foot, are going to arrive at a different conclusion.

I tend to think of it as Counterstrike, and on 9-11, we heard the voice say, "Terrorists win".

We've been playing non-stop ever since. The first thing that Zarqawi heard after being pulled from the wreckage of his safe house was, "Counterterrorists win."
heh, never played counterstrike. but that's a funny comparison

So what else is new ? how about the pictures of the F16 dropping flares...they photo shoped and said were missiles ?:D And all of the rest of the Bullshit comming out of Lebenon ...dead kid being recycled ....50 + casualties ...revised to 20...etc. etc...fake burning buildings...the press seems to think they are all Michael Moore .:D A guy from 1996 photo's show as a rescuer of a the same dead body in 2006...:D


Hmmmm ....WTF ?
do you have links to these?

3000ish. A number that i don't think was inflated when it was reported. What's your point?

Incorrect. It was originally speculated as above 50,000 people at the WTC site alone -- a good number of the folks who worked in the tower complex and surrounding area.

And Giuliani's official number was the aforementioned 9,000

Thank God it was revised downward as people were located.

I tend to think of it as Counterstrike, and on 9-11, we heard the voice say, "Terrorists win".

We've been playing non-stop ever since. The first thing that Zarqawi heard after being pulled from the wreckage of his safe house was, "Counterterrorists win."

Yeah, a yank would think of it as a videogame, wouldn't he?

I recall hearing numbers like 9,000 kicked around - with the number of dead magically reducing for weeks afterward. Shame on the referees from the Whitehouse for inflating the scoring.

I recall it being called "the most Americans ever killed in one day," which is a giant stretch, even from 9,000.

Obliterated according to Reuters and their photographers? Obliterated according to who? Obliterated is an overstatement.


The PM of Lebanon can be pissed and hate Israel as much as he wants..but to lie to the world about his casualties to inflame WORLDWIDE hatred of Israel is wrong.
I know obliterated was an overstatement - just saying you should try looking at things from his point of view.

Yeah, a yank would think of it as a videogame, wouldn't he?
And why not?

It's the future of US warfare. Unmanned drones, unmanned aircraft, and unmanned ground robots that will fight in place of US soldiers, commanded by people sitting in darkened rooms in the US at video screens.

We won't lose any American soldiers in the wars of the future. And it's kind of silly to "take a robot hostage".

Robots don't sleep. You can rotate a crew of people to man the thing, in complete safety and comfort. Meanwhile, the people facing such things have no face to confront, only an implacable machine that is deadlier than most humans.

The vision that Johnson wants the study to articulate outlines the many useful capabilities that will be available in robots before 2025. Characteristics of a tactical autonomous combatant (TAC) would include the ability to work in ground, air, space, or undersea environments, and in harsh conditions such as extreme heat or cold. In addition, TACs, unlike humans, would be able to operate in chemically, biologically, or radiologically contaminated environments.

“We call them tactical autonomous combatants because they’ll operate largely autonomously with some limited human supervision,” explained Johnson. “We’re talking about, where we can and where we have the capability of replacing humans. We’re not talking about the operational level or strategic level, but at the tactical level, still using humans where we need to.

Oooh. That means that the typical grunt, or infantryman, will be an autonomous robot. Shades of Terminator.

I recall it being called "the most Americans ever killed in one day," which is a giant stretch, even from 9,000.

Perhaps most killed by a foreign power on American soil. More died at Antietam (23,000 in one day http://www.nps.gov/anti/), though, than at WTC.

And why not?

It's the future of US warfare. Unmanned drones, unmanned aircraft, and unmanned ground robots that will fight in place of US soldiers, commanded by people sitting in darkened rooms in the US at video screens.

We won't lose any American soldiers in the wars of the future. And it's kind of silly to "take a robot hostage".

Robots don't sleep. You can rotate a crew of people to man the thing, in complete safety and comfort. Meanwhile, the people facing such things have no face to confront, only an implacable machine that is deadlier than most humans.

Oooh. That means that the typical grunt, or infantryman, will be an autonomous robot. Shades of Terminator.How creepy. I can certainly see where primitivists are coming from here.

Perhaps most killed by a foreign power on American soil. More died at Antietam (23,000 in one day), though, than at WTC.
Which is nothing compared to how many the Russians lost at Kharkov.

do you have links to these?


Been posting them as they come up..they are all over the place .

Common knowlage...just not reported by the mainstream media because they show them to be Dan rather or worse ...a bunch of dolts..although Reuters did get skewered...the retraction of the casualty figures usually comes after the story has been played out...just pay attention..

unless you are waiting for the media to say they have been idiots....driving with Hezbollah to what hezbollah WANTS them to see....ummmmm whats that exactly ????:D

reporters want to keep their heads attatched to their bodies...so I doubt you will se much more than smuggled photo's and other types of " clandestine " reports from those with the balls to cross terrorist...Why do you think the HEZ promote free speech ?:D :D :D


GET REAL .

How creepy. I can certainly see where primitivists are coming from here.
Well, at least robots won't get ideas into their own heads, and start sending photos of naked human pyramids out onto the Internet.

Hopefully.

Which is nothing compared to how many the Russians lost at Kharkov.

I was not responding to whether or not it was the most people lost in a day ever -- simply pointing out that claims that it was the most Americans lost in a single day are, in fact, inaccurate.

And why not?

It's the future of US warfare. Unmanned drones, unmanned aircraft, and unmanned ground robots that will fight in place of US soldiers, commanded by people sitting in darkened rooms in the US at video screens.

We won't lose any American soldiers in the wars of the future. And it's kind of silly to "take a robot hostage".

Robots don't sleep. You can rotate a crew of people to man the thing, in complete safety and comfort. Meanwhile, the people facing such things have no face to confront, only an implacable machine that is deadlier than most humans.

Despite the fact that in the future you can grow horribly obese and still blow stuff up, it still doesn't make sense to think of the war in iraq as a game of "terrorists vs counter-terrorists".

Despite the fact that in the future you can grow horribly obese and still blow stuff up, it still doesn't make sense to think of the war in iraq as a game of "terrorists vs counter-terrorists".

War is always "us vs. them".

Incorrect. It was originally speculated as above 50,000 people at the WTC site alone -- a good number of the folks who worked in the tower complex and surrounding area.

And Giuliani's official number was the aforementioned 9,000

Thank God it was revised downward as people were located.
50k deaths?

Basic PR Advice:

1. If the enemy attacks you, the only victims are innocent women, children, old people, and babies. Especially babies.

2. If a building is destroyed, and you want a count of how many were killed (since it will be a week before you can lift the slabs of concrete off of anyone who might have been inside), take the number of square meters of floor space and divide by four.

3. Of course, none of your soldiers were killed or wounded in the heinous attacks (any of them) and none of your equipment was damaged or destroyed (at all, since the beginning of the war).

4. Follow up by accusing the enemy of deliberately targeting civilians, executing prisoners, running death camps, and say they're just like Hitler.

Ok then. At that rate no Israelis were killed at all. So why are they attacking Lebanon?

Ok then. At that rate no Israelis were killed at all. So why are they attacking Lebanon?

Oh, women and children were killed! Arab children, in fact, in the first Hezbollah missile strikes on Israel.

Oh, women and children were killed! Arab children, in fact, in the first Hezbollah missile strikes on Israel.

So its only a lie when the other crowd do it then? Islamolieicisation?

War is always "us vs. them".

Actually, this time it's "Yanks vs. vague definition of an ideology which was non-existant in 50% of the places invaded". Unless, of course, you want to define it as "Yanks vs. Muslims".

So its only a lie when the other crowd do it then? Islamolieicisation?
Hard to say.

What astounds me is that people are castigating either side, because people are killed. In a war.

50k deaths?

I do remember that being bandied about on the radio and on CBS news -- which was the only thing we got for days on end.

Fortunately, it was massively overestimated.

Perhaps the Lebanese PM is guilty of the same thing -- an error.

Actually, this time it's "Yanks vs. vague definition of an ideology which was non-existant in 50% of the places invaded". Unless, of course, you want to define it as "Yanks vs. Muslims".

Right. Because it's America lobbing missiles back and forth over the Israeli/Lebanese border, killing both sides.

Hard to say.

What astounds me is that people are castigating either side, because people are killed. In a war.

Its an excessive response to what could have been dealt with by a few assasinations/extra-judicial killings/murders/debt settlements. Instead its turned into an old fashioned colonial exercise in slaughtering the natives until they know their place. Which doesnt work here, as they should know by now.

Right. Because it's America lobbing missiles back and forth over the Israeli/Lebanese border, killing both sides.

No...Read the whole thing. We were talking Iraq, Afghanistan and 9/11.

Its an excessive response to what could have been dealt with by a few assasinations/extra-judicial killings/murders/debt settlements. Instead its turned into an old fashioned colonial exercise in slaughtering the natives until they know their place. Which doesnt work here, as they should know by now.

What might be interesting to know is what other information Israel had prior to reacting.

If Hezbollah obtained larger and more numerous missiles and rockets, they already had something in mind.

It's also not a coincidence that even larger missiles were moved from Iran to Syria, to a point 15 km from the Lebanese border.

And, it's not a coincidence that Ahmanijhad has made speeches about making the world violent enough for the return of the 12th Imam to return and restore Islamic rule to the entire world. And, no coincidence that he says that on 27 Rajab (the anniversary of the ascension of Muhammed from Jerusalem to Heaven), he will "light up the night sky more brightly" than was seen on that historical night.

Gee, I wonder what he could mean by that.

Only a few days left, and quite a few launchers NOT in Lebanon well within range.

IIRC, the number grew to the 3000 mark. There may have been some _speculation_ that the number was higher, but it wasn't stated as fact.
Your number of 3,000 is actually "inflated (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/10/29/wtc.deaths/)". Did you round upwards for a nice even number?

The change from 2,792 to 2,752 is the result of an ongoing review process -- in particular of those initially reported as missing for whom no human remains have been identified.

In support of Dobbs, from the same article:

The city's original estimate of victims exceeded 6,700, due in part to the large volume of mistaken missing persons reports.

I do remember that being bandied about on the radio and on CBS news -- which was the only thing we got for days on end.

Fortunately, it was massively overestimated.

Perhaps the Lebanese PM is guilty of the same thing -- an error.

i can see the mistake happening once, but when #'s are consitently being overflated...

i can see the mistake happening once, but when #'s are consitently being overflated...

Yes, when we photoshopped the WTC smoke, it was to put the face of Satan in it for Weekly World News.

Not like the cloning of extra buildings and smoke by the Lebanese photographer for Reuters.

Actually, this time it's "Yanks vs. vague definition of an ideology which was non-existant in 50% of the places invaded". Unless, of course, you want to define it as "Yanks vs. Muslims".


you have your geography confused.?

Your number of 3,000 is actually "inflated (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/10/29/wtc.deaths/)". Did you round upwards for a nice even number?



In support of Dobbs, from the same article:
yes, i rounded up. didn't know the exact # when i stated, but knew it was around 3k, iguess i should have used 2.8k instead? either way..., i've already conceded the point except for the fact that the 6700 were estimated while the pm of lebanon was stating the 40 as fact.

the Israeli apologists are pushing a new low here.

is this of all things worth getting angy about? the lebanise prime minister having the audicity to complain about the IDF destroying his country and killing wholesale his population.

you find one strike that thankfully wasnt as lethal as first thought and try and twist it into some anti-jewish plot?

is that what zionism has become? 'we didnt kill that many civilians'?

pathetic

you have your geography confused.?

No, you've got the context confused... Ah...Nevermind.

is that what zionism has become? 'we didnt kill that many civilians'?

Considering that Hezbollah brags to the UN about using civilians as human shields, I think that the Lebanese and Hezbollah are pathetic substitutes for humanity. And Hezbollah started this, so they can eat it.

Yes, we didn't kill so many civilians, because even though Hezbollah is using human shields, we're trying to be as careful as possible.

I'm sure you would be happier if Israel just disarmed right now, and the Jews marched into the sea and drowned.

Considering that Hezbollah brags to the UN about using civilians as human shields, I think that the Lebanese and Hezbollah are pathetic substitutes for humanity. And Hezbollah started this, so they can eat it.

Yes, we didn't kill so many civilians, because even though Hezbollah is using human shields, we're trying to be as careful as possible.

I'm sure you would be happier if Israel just disarmed right now, and the Jews marched into the sea and drowned.

we?

thats it, im an anti-semetic jew hater because im alarmed by the level of civilian casualties.

grow the fuck up

What might be interesting to know is what other information Israel had prior to reacting.



'Lebanon is full of Arabs. Our licence to kill from America says "Arabs are a-ok, go easy on the UN and tree-huggers.'?

the Israeli apologists are pushing a new low here.



Coming from an apologist for those who still believe in the "Protocols" and openly call for the extermination of all Jews, try looking into a mirror when you use the word pathetic.

we?

thats it, im an anti-semetic jew hater because im alarmed by the level of civilian casualties.

grow the fuck up

Defending your nation, even if it means bombing a rocket launching site surrounded by babies, is perfectly legal under international law, specifically the Fourth Geneva Convention.

You're being alarmed about a fairly miniscule level of civilian casualties, compared to what I believe is going to follow on 22 August (27 Rajab).

Oh, and on that day, it will be Syria and Iran firing missiles at civilians. Hope you are ready to criticize them.

Considering that Hezbollah brags to the UN about using civilians as human shields, I think that the Lebanese and Hezbollah are pathetic substitutes for humanity. And Hezbollah started this, so they can eat it.
I find it interesting that you moralize on this issue, and yet have no problem advocating genocide and sterilization of Muslims.

Nevermind who started all this nonsense, find a way to end it in a manner that doesn't involve the erradication of the one side or the other. How many wars have to be fought to realize that war is not the solution?

Coming from an apologist for those who still believe in the "Protocols" and openly call for the extermination of all Jews, try looking into a mirror when you use the word pathetic.

when did I 'apologise' for Hamas?

or are you zionists just throwing mud at everyone who is slightly opposed to the level of reaction from the IDF?

its childish bullying from people losing the debate

I find it interesting that you moralize on this issue, and yet have no problem advocating genocide and sterilization of Muslims.

Nevermind who started all this nonsense, find a way to end it in a manner that doesn't involve the erradication of the one side or the other. How many wars have to be fought to realize that war is not the solution?

You lunatic!!!!!!!!!!!!Why do you hate America so????????

Defending your nation, even if it means bombing a rocket launching site surrounded by babies, is perfectly legal under international law, specifically the Fourth Geneva Convention.

You're being alarmed about a fairly miniscule level of civilian casualties, compared to what I believe is going to follow on 22 August (27 Rajab).

Oh, and on that day, it will be Syria and Iran firing missiles at civilians. Hope you are ready to criticize them.

if you are jewish, you are a fairly shit jew if thats your attitide towords human life. whats the moral difference between you and an islamofacist?

unlike you, i am consistantly critical of those who kill civilians unneccescarily, and that includes hez and the IDF at the moment. my morals arent as elastic as yours appear to be.

How many wars have to be fought to realize that war is not the solution?

As soon as we figure out again that the Mongols had the right idea, we'll have war as a final solution.

How can you blame Israel for the deaths of these civilians? If Hezbollah is going to put civillians in har's way by operating out of residential buildings, that is Hezbollah's fault not the Hezbollah hunters. Death to Hezbollah!!!!

Yes, when we photoshopped the WTC smoke, it was to put the face of Satan in it for Weekly World News.

Not like the cloning of extra buildings and smoke by the Lebanese photographer for Reuters.
A freelance photographer who will no longer be employed with Reuters.

when did I 'apologise' for Hamas?

or are you zionists just throwing mud at everyone who is slightly opposed to the level of reaction from the IDF?

its childish bullying from people losing the debate

So now you're denying defending the Iranian Presidents remarks supporting Hamas's goals and Iranian support for Hezbollah's leaders who have said the same things?

Odd. The website you constantly link to even states his support for Hamas.

This thread already peged the bullshit meter...ya'll need to keep up with the retractions and revisions ...:D

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/mideast.main/index.html

Hot off the wire, theres the link. Israel seems to kill more civilians than Hezbollah could ever hope to.
Don't you get it by now??!! Hezbollah WANTS civilians to be killed on both sides, especially the Lebanese. It wants Israelis killed because they're Jews and they hate Jews, but it's better for Hezbollah when Lebanese are killed because it makes Israel look bad in the media. Bottom line is that Israel is doing what it needs to do to defend its citizens, it's doing what any nation would do. Furthermore, Israel is a successful liberal democracy.

What you're doing is demonizing Israel, and making Hezbollah look the victim. Israel is the victim, Hezbollah is the perpetrator, and don't you forget that.

Don't you get it by now??!! Hezbollah WANTS civilians to be killed on both sides, especially the Lebanese. It wants Israelis killed because they're Jews and they hate Jews, but it's better for Hezbollah when Lebanese are killed because it makes Israel look bad in the media. Bottom line is that Israel is doing what it needs to do to defend its citizens, it's doing what any nation would do. Furthermore, Israel is a successful liberal democracy.

What you're doing is demonizing Israel, and making Hezbollah look the victim. Israel is the victim, Hezbollah is the perpetrator, and don't you forget that.

Right on! I 100% agree with you.

I love Lebanese food.

A freelance photographer who will no longer be employed with Reuters.
The best part is that prior to this, photos from the Middle East went straight into their Global Desk with no review.

So much for the vaunted news organization with "reviewed material" being so much better than a blog.

That kind of smears the rest of their photos, until they have all been examined.

They apparently also changed their policy to review ALL photos from the Middle East, through senior level people.

What? Now? Just the Middle East?

I'm going to photoshop some stuff from Virginia, and submit it to the Global Desk, heh heh...

So now you're denying defending the Iranian Presidents remarks supporting Hamas's goals and Iranian support for Hezbollah's leaders who have said the same things?

Odd. The website you constantly link to even states his support for Hamas.

i clarified what he said. i didnt offer any support for the statements he made.

i clarified what he said. i didnt offer any support for the statements he made.

No, you constantly denied his making statements about denying the holocaust based off of one blog that didn't even cover the whole speech and his support of Hamas and Hezbollah because it wasn't word for word what he said in one section.


Glad you can be disingenous even w/ yourself.

i clarified what he said. i didnt offer any support for the statements he made.
Maybe you're unfamiliar with the Iranian President's promise for the 22nd of August (27 Rajab). You know, the anniversary of the Prophet Muhammed's ascent from Jerusalem to heaven (the Miraj).

He's promised that on that night, a light brighter than that night will burst forth over Jerusalem.

I'm sure you will cheer if it's a nuclear detonation - after all, what else could it be?

Right on! I 100% agree with you.

I love Lebanese food.
And I love matza!!:p

Maybe you're unfamiliar with the Iranian President's promise for the 22nd of August (27 Rajab). You know, the anniversary of the Prophet Muhammed's ascent from Jerusalem to heaven (the Miraj).

He's promised that on that night, a light brighter than that night will burst forth over Jerusalem.

I'm sure you will cheer if it's a nuclear detonation - after all, what else could it be?
if a moslem leader detonated a nuclear bomb in jerusalem destroying one of the most sacred spots of islam in the process, would the entirety of islam rise up in jihad agaisnt him?

Maybe you're unfamiliar with the Iranian President's promise for the 22nd of August (27 Rajab). You know, the anniversary of the Prophet Muhammed's ascent from Jerusalem to heaven (the Miraj).

He's promised that on that night, a light brighter than that night will burst forth over Jerusalem.

I'm sure you will cheer if it's a nuclear detonation - after all, what else could it be?

you are sure i'll cheer?

get to fuck. its boring. everyone who disagrees with your cheerleading of the IDF doesnt want the nation of isreal wiped out. its getting boring, and worse from someone with your racist past on this site

which nuclear weapons exactly will they use?

The best part is that prior to this, photos from the Middle East went straight into their Global Desk with no review.

So much for the vaunted news organization with "reviewed material" being so much better than a blog.

That kind of smears the rest of their photos, until they have all been examined.

They apparently also changed their policy to review ALL photos from the Middle East, through senior level people.

What? Now? Just the Middle East?

I'm going to photoshop some stuff from Virginia, and submit it to the Global Desk, heh heh...You'd probably need to be employed as a freelance photographer with them first ;)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/mideast.main/index.html

Hot off the wire, theres the link. Israel seems to kill more civilians than Hezbollah could ever hope to.

Wait you're saying it's WORSE that only 1 died instead of 40???

I don't get your point. It's good that Israel didn't kill 40 right?

Or is this just another Israel bash.

You'd probably need to be employed as a freelance photographer with them first ;)
Considering that their vetting process appears to suck eggs, I have a great chance.

well, that's a damned callous way of putting it.

I would agree -- but no more callous than people have been about Lebanese and Israeli losses both.

Considering that their vetting process appears to suck eggs, I have a great chance.Have fun! They turn down quite a bunch of applications :D

Have fun! They turn down quite a bunch of applications :D
We should have Stephen Colbert apply, using his real name, and see if they buy his badly photoshopped pictures.

We should have Stephen Colbert apply, using his real name, and see if they buy his badly photoshopped pictures.Like I said, you need to apply first and get accepted. The chances for that aren't that high. ;)

And I love matza!!:p

Try eating it for a week every year and then tell me if you still like it. Now matza ball soup on the other hand, now that is some good eating. I think I will call up my old lady and have her make me some. Mmmmm Mmmmm

Try eating it for a week every year and then tell me if you still like it. Now matza ball soup on the other hand, now that is some good eating. I think I will call up my old lady and have her make me some. Mmmmm Mmmmm
Chocolate covered matza ftw.

Furthermore, Israel is a successful liberal democracy.


"liberal democracy" and colonisation outside legal and recognised borders are two things that you'll find don't mix.

"liberal democracy" and colonisation outside legal and recognised borders are two things that you'll find don't mix.

This blames Israel for the misbehavior of others. If its neighbors simply behaved themselves, they would never have had any trouble.

This blames Israel for the misbehavior of others. If its neighbors simply behaved themselves, they would never have had any trouble.

Yes it does, because regardless of what its neigbours did, it had no business in the West Bank, Gaza, and Arab East Jerusalem. Its out of one, it now has to get out of two more, taking its settlers with it. Then its in the clear. Until then, its as bad as the rest of them.

Like I said, you need to apply first and get accepted. The chances for that aren't that high. ;)
are you speaking from experience? :P

*edit*

and if chances aren't that high? how did someone like that get one? because he was lebanese and had a chance to get photos on the ground?

Just report him to the mods. Make a thread in Moderation to do so.
Why don't you go ahead and do just that IDF - seeing as I'm so offensive and all.

Bully-boy.

Why don't you go ahead and do just that IDF - seeing as I'm so offensive and all.

Bully-boy.


earlier in the thread, you called me an asshat... guess it takes one to know one.

earlier in the thread, you called me an asshat... guess it takes one to know one.

Ouch :D