NationStates Jolt Archive

Fox is reporting a big rocket attack on Haifa. The rockets were launched from Tyre-36 miles away. The Izzys are saying these are FADJ-5s, which are the LARGEST rockets Iran posses, and now they were the largest Hezz possessed.

Yep, Israel's winning...

Any recommendations as to British sources I can check up on this?

Overkill much?

Any recommendations as to British sources I can check up on this?CNN International has it.
(http://edition.cnn.com/)

Overkill much?

If Hezbollah is doing it, it's fine by the EU. They're not a terror organization, so firing huge rockets into civilian areas is allowed.

If Hezbollah is doing it, it's fine by the EU. They're not a terror organization, so firing huge rockets into civilian areas is allowed.

Just like firing missiles from helicopter gunships into civilian areas is fine.

Hezbollah are terrorists because they don't use aircraft or tanks to do their fighting, is the feeling I'm getting.

Overkill much?


The Fadjr-5 has a 400lb warhead.

That's overkill.

So far 3 were killed and 20/30 wounded....The reason the entire area surrounding the launch site wasn't glassed over was because Israel didn't have any air assets free at the moment.

If Hezbollah is doing it, it's fine by the EU. They're not a terror organization, so firing huge rockets into civilian areas is allowed.
We could write them a letter telling them not to, but Israel has been turning every known permanent address into rubble, so we wouldn't know where to send it.

We could write them a letter telling them not to, but Israel has been turning every known permanent address into rubble, so we wouldn't know where to send it.

Treat other how you wish to be treated.
Thats what Hezbollah are doing to them.

Treat other how you wish to be treated.
Thats what Hezbollah are doing to them.

They're bloody right to.

Just like firing missiles from helicopter gunships into civilian areas is fine.

Hezbollah are terrorists because they don't use aircraft or tanks to do their fighting, is the feeling I'm getting.

No, they are terrorists becasue they:

1. use suicide bombers

2. force Israel to target Civies by launching missiles from those civillian areas (They don't let the people leave, and those who try to leave a Launcher area are killed)

3. they do not wear uniforms

4. they do not have any real chain of command

5. they hide their weapons out of plain site

6. they use protected areas (mosques, churches, hospitals, orphanages) to hide their weapons

that is why they are terrorists

:p We could write them a letter telling them not to, but Israel has been turning every known permanent address into rubble, so we wouldn't know where to send it.

If the lebanese have a Katyusha launcher in their backyard, tough. Yer gunna get bombed...

CNN International has it.
(http://edition.cnn.com/)
Thanks, though I chased up the Times' website on it too which so far has only a small section on the events. It would seem so far as though the model of the rockets involved is nothing but speculation, though the number seems to be up close to the hundred mark.

Gah. Why won't both sides just get it into their heads that they are fighting an unending battle against the innocents caught in the crossfire? And where the hell are the "coalition of the willing"? Terrorists, hell yeah, let's go get them; innocents, fuck 'em? Some "will".

No, they are terrorists becasue they:

1. use suicide bombers

2. force Israel to target Civies by launching missiles from those civillian areas (They don't let the people leave, and those who try to leave a Launcher area are killed)

3. they do not wear uniforms

4. they do not have any real chain of command
5. they hide their weapons out of plain site

6. they use protected areas (mosques, churches, hospitals, orphanages) to hide their weapons

that is why they are terrorists

They have a sort of uniform...usually an AK mag vest and kalashnikov, but that's not really much.

Hezzbollah is VERY well organized. Makes Hamas look like the girl scouts. They have their battalions, fire support, rocket teams, etc......

However, by nature of what they do, they are still terrorists and deserve to die.

1) Welcome to esoteric warfare 101.

2) Oh, yes. Israel is forced to blow up hospitals because *SHOCK HORROR* the humanitarian wing of Hezbollah built them, so they might have terrorists in too!

3) Welcome to the world of guerilla warfare.

4) WTF? YOU ARE TERRORIST U NO USE CHANE OF COMAND LOL

5) Welcome to actual war, captain clever.

6) Refer to 1) and 3).

IDf says the rockets were NOT launched from Tyre. The video taken wasn't from Tyre, apparently.

IDF now saying an IAF jet bombed both sites, got the launchers. :D

They have a sort of uniform...usually an AK mag vest and kalashnikov, but that's not really much.

Hezzbollah is VERY well organized. Makes Hamas look like the girl scouts. They have their battalions, fire support, rocket teams, etc......

However, by nature of what they do, they are still terrorists and deserve to die.

no, the Geneva convention says that they have to have an actual uniform, a mag vest and weapon doesn't count

and while yes, they are more organized than most, they are still disorganised, that way Nasrallah can't be made to answer for the actions of the rest of Hezzbollah

Further evidence that Israel is indeed Pwning Hezbullah.

Seems like the Israeli campaign is doing the job. After 26 or so days, the Hez is finally out of Katyushkas...

Oh, yes, you can obviously take what either of the combatants say at face value, they'd never lie.

No, they are terrorists becasue they:We'll see.

1. use suicide bombersPost evidence on recent suicide bombings. I'm not arguing that they're not, but I'm sure you can find ample evidence in favor.

2. force Israel to target Civies by launching missiles from those civillian areas (They don't let the people leave, and those who try to leave a Launcher area are killed)They don't let the people leave? Back that up. So far, the only ones that have done anything of the sort is the IAF by bombing bridges and roads.

3. they do not wear uniformsNot true. They may not wear them all the time, but they do put on uniforms when fighting Israelis.

4. they do not have any real chain of commandNeither did my swim team. Are they terrorists too?

5. they hide their weapons out of plain siteNot a fan of concealed weapon laws, huh?

6. they use protected areas (mosques, churches, hospitals, orphanages) to hide their weaponsThat's abominable behavior, but not inherently terroristic behavior.

that is why they are terroristsNo, the fact that they target civilians in order to achieve a political goal is what makes them terrorists.

4) WTF? YOU ARE TERRORIST U NO USE CHANE OF COMAND LOL
...

As strange as it might sound, that stream of noobishness actually raises an interesting question.

Is the US opinion against the Hezbollah tactics in some way related to their utter hatred for "Camping" and "Spawn Killing" tactics in online FPSes?

I wonder if there's some allegory to be drawn here...

...

As strange as it might sound, that stream of noobishness actually raises an interesting question.

Is the US opinion against the Hezbollah tactics in some way related to their utter hatred for "Camping" and "Spawn Killing" tactics in online FPSes?

I wonder if there's some allegory to be drawn here...

Hezbollah hax!

Bastards from the Hezbollah kills innocent Israeli civilians - Bastards from the IDF kills innocent Lebanese civilians.

Another fun day in the middle east is ending... And the bastards live to fight another day.

Seems like the Israeli campaign is doing the job. After 26 or so days, the Hez is finally out of Katyushkas...

Or pushed them back far enough where it renders the Katyushas inoperable. But then, this is the same terror network that had a missile land in the Palestinian West Bank so who knows.

We'll see.
Post evidence on recent suicide bombings. I'm not arguing that they're not, but I'm sure you can find ample evidence in favor.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/28/world/main1844822.shtml

They don't let the people leave? Back that up. So far, the only ones that have done anything of the sort is the IAF by bombing bridges and roads.

http://www.bother.com/?p=429
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278026,00.html
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2006/07/hezbollah_using.php

Neither did my swim team. Are they terrorists too?
Not a fan of concealed weapon laws, huh?

I am all for concealed carry in a civil area, I supported it when my state put it up to vote, and would support it if it was challenged.

However, this is a military situation, not a civil one. Therefore, I will have to defer to the Geneva Convention:
Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

No, they are terrorists becasue they:

1. use suicide bombers

2. force Israel to target Civies by launching missiles from those civillian areas (They don't let the people leave, and those who try to leave a Launcher area are killed)

3. they do not wear uniforms

4. they do not have any real chain of command

5. they hide their weapons out of plain site

6. they use protected areas (mosques, churches, hospitals, orphanages) to hide their weapons

that is why they are terrorists
this list is getting really old and it's been debunked so many times but, what the hell, i'm gunna have a go anyway.

1. you're thinking of hamas, i don't think hezbollah have been implicated in any suicide bombings recently.

2. awww, poor israelies, forced to choose between using elite troops too infiltate a civilian area and neutralise a target and blanket bombing of civilian areas in the hope that some hezbollah get caught in the blasts.

3. apart from the fact that all ground forces of state militaries wear camouflage to hide themselves from the enemy and are only identifiable when up close, putting this sort of requirement on people wanting to fight for their cause is absurd. who the fuck would bother, really?

4. now you're talking shit.

5. OMFG kill everyone that uses camouflage netting and camo paint as a matter of course in modern warfare they are obviously teh ebil terrawrists!!!eleven!11!!one

6. cuz that's not a well used tactic in state/state warfare at all, no no no no no, our good and righteous military nutjobs would never pull a trick like that.:rolleyes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/28/world/main1844822.shtml
Noted.
http://www.bother.com/?p=429
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278026,00.html
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2006/07/hezbollah_using.php
You're kidding, right? A blog, a website that tips the scales against "islamofascism", and Ynet? Of those, Ynet is the only reliable source, and only barely. And they quote a claim made by the IDF. That's pretty far from reliable support.

snipThen don't use blanket terms to define terrorism. Use "isn't a militia according to the Geneva convention"

The Izzys are saying these are FADJ-5s, which are the LARGEST rockets Iran posses, and now they were the largest Hezz possessed.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and posit that the Fajr-5 is hardly the biggest rocket Iran has.
It's a battlefield, artillery-type system. The concept is basically a further development of the same old Katyusha-concept. The North Koreans are probably the culprits. And according to globalsecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/images/mrl-iran.jpg), its warhead is 90kg, not 200 like you said.

Iran has of course proper ballistic missiles with much bigger warheads, namely the Shahab series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahab-3#Shahab-3B). And I do hope that Hezbollah doesn't get their hands on those (although I can't see how you would transport them from Iran to Lebanon).

2. awww, poor israelies, forced to choose between using elite troops too infiltate a civilian area and neutralise a target and blanket bombing of civilian areas in the hope that some hezbollah get caught in the blasts.

3. apart from the fact that all ground forces of state militaries wear camouflage to hide themselves from the enemy and are only identifiable when up close, putting this sort of requirement on people wanting to fight for their cause is absurd. who the fuck would bother, really?

4. now you're talking shit.

6. cuz that's not a well used tactic in state/state warfare at all, no no no no no, our good and righteous military nutjobs would never pull a trick like that.

Clearly you know exactly nothing of which you speak.

2. No one does this. Why? BECAUSE IT DOESN"T GODDAMWELL WORK! Anybody with half a brain puts a squad of regular infantry with each launcher in an arty battery. Plus, the launcher team MOVES after each volley.

So, send in expensive spec. forces troops on a hopeless mission to destroy what they can't find? And they couldn't get to if they did? Yeah, that would be REALLY smart, wouldn't it?

3+4. No, that ISN'T shit. According to the Hague Conventions, any fighter must make reasonable attempts to wear identifying uniform, and military forces require a chain of command for purposes of negotiations (for such things as cease-fires or parleys). Anyone without such is not a soldier, and has no right to soldier's protections (such as those called for in the Geneva Conventions), and may be executed without trial if captured.

6. No, it sure as hell ISN'T a well used tactic! Again, according to the Hague, hospitals and refugee camps lose their inviolability if used for any kind of attack or for military basing of uninjured troops. The Hague is also clear on who is responsible for that too - the people using the hospital illegally, not those who strike back at it.

Hezbollah can't aim their rockets very well, so I suppose all they need to say for this to be a legitimate military operation with legitimate civilian collateral damage is "we were trying to hit some israeli soldiers in haifa."

If this despicable excuse for murder works for the israelis, it must also work for hezbollah, hamas, and al qaeda.

...

As strange as it might sound, that stream of noobishness actually raises an interesting question.

Is the US opinion against the Hezbollah tactics in some way related to their utter hatred for "Camping" and "Spawn Killing" tactics in online FPSes?

I wonder if there's some allegory to be drawn here...

That's why Counterstrike is such a serious game, Isn't it obivious! Hezbollah must be one of those damn NOOB groups on it!

No, they are terrorists becasue they:

1. use suicide bombers

2. force Israel to target Civies by launching missiles from those civillian areas (They don't let the people leave, and those who try to leave a Launcher area are killed)

3. they do not wear uniforms

4. they do not have any real chain of command

5. they hide their weapons out of plain site

6. they use protected areas (mosques, churches, hospitals, orphanages) to hide their weapons

that is why they are terrorists

You're a terrorist if you use terror to achieve whatever goal you might have. For example killing civillians to demoralize a nation. That's why it's called terrorism. Guerilla warfare is not the same. Not necessarily, anyway.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and posit that the Fajr-5 is hardly the biggest rocket Iran has.
It's a battlefield, artillery-type system. The concept is basically a further development of the same old Katyusha-concept. The North Koreans are probably the culprits. And according to globalsecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/images/mrl-iran.jpg), its warhead is 90kg, not 200 like you said.

Iran has of course proper ballistic missiles with much bigger warheads, namely the Shahab series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahab-3#Shahab-3B). And I do hope that Hezbollah doesn't get their hands on those (although I can't see how you would transport them from Iran to Lebanon).

My bad, the biggest katyusha (IE, unguided area-fire rocket) it has. The shahab rockets are guided.

Camels?

Camels?
You've never seen a camel in your life, have you.

I'm a little worried that something like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fateh-110) goes to Hezbollah though. Because that thing has got to hurt.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and posit that the Fajr-5 is hardly the biggest rocket Iran has.
It's a battlefield, artillery-type system.

Fajr 5 is their biggest artillery rocket

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/images/mrl-iran.jpg

It isnt impossible that this is what was found

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f2/Khaibar-1.jpg


Unconfirmed Israeli reports say that an Iranian official claimed to have given Hezbollah some unguided Zelzal 2 missile systems


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525807791&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

zelzal2
Type SRBM
Range 210 km (120 miles)
Warheads one
Propulsion Solid
Guidance system none
Length 16 m
Diameter 0.61 m
Weight 3,545 kg
Payload 600 kg
Manufacturer Iran
In service 1993
States Iran
Hezbollah


The rocket fragments found are clearly too small to be Zelzal 2s though.

One thing that strikes me is how exceptionally ethical Israel is being in the prosecution of this war. Far more than the Allies in WW II. Once Germany started intentionally targeting population centers, after Britain in advertently invovled non-combatants, it was on, and the Allies took the war right to the population centers, and people. Leaving a legacy of some debate and little mercy.

Israel had the same ethical quandry, but perhaps not the same strategic and tactical pressures, and they're very limited in their response. Under the rules WWII was fought under, Israel is more than entitled to just kill everyone in Lebanon, combatant or not, so long as they don't use chemical, or biological weapons to do it. Yet Israel is expected to meet or exceed some insane ideal that never existed anywhere at anytime, and they get only recrimination for the exceptionally high level of restraint and compassion they do achieve. Certainly it's fruitless for them to proceed with such high standards in order to court any favor from the international community or public opinion. One wonders why precisely they bother.