NationStates Jolt Archive

Show me links if I'm to believe this!

Well both are Shi'ia and many intelligence reports have shown this. Not to mention the fact that a lot of the rockets used by Hezbollah are more tech. advanced then they could obtain on their own. So whether you believe it your not doesnt make it any less true.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525807791&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

ran admitted for the first time on Friday that it did indeed supply long-range Zelzal-2 missiles to Hizbullah.

Secretary-general of the "Intifada conference" Mohtashami Pur told an Iranian newspaper that Iran transferred the missiles so that they could be used to defend Lebanon, Channel 1 reported.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525807791&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Here is your proof.

not to mention, that the missle which have been launched on the israeli missle ship was iranian.

Add these to the Hez shopping list
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/index.html

I'd rather hear a good argument for why Iran supplying Hezbollah with weapons is a bad thing while the US supplying Israel with weapons is a good thing.

Hezbollah is on the US list of terrorist organizations.

Hezbollah is not on the EU list of terrorist organizations.

Israel is on the Iranian and Syrian lists of terrorists organizations.

So, the US provides Israel with weapons to defend against a terrorist organization. Iran provides Hezbollah with weapons to defend against a terrorist organization.

No right or wrong, just subjective opinionry. Big fat deal.

I'd rather hear a good argument for why Iran supplying Hezbollah with weapons is a bad thing while the US supplying Israel with weapons is a good thing.

How does UN Resolution 1559 work for you?

Hezbollah is on the US list of terrorist organizations.

Hezbollah is not on the EU list of terrorist organizations.

And your point is? Irrelevent.

Israel is on the Iranian and Syrian lists of terrorists organizations.

Proof please?

How does UN Resolution 1559 work for you?


Works about as well as all the other Resolutions that apply to Israel. *oops*

And your point is? Irrelevent.
I believe his point is: Perspective.

Just because the US says something does not necessarily make it so.

How does UN Resolution 1559 work for you?

It doesn't. Like most Americans, I couldn't give a shit about the UN or its resolutions. This administration has already proven that UN resolutions only matter when they serve its agenda. We simply don't care what the UN has to say.

And your point is? Irrelevent.

My point is that the US doesn't hold the lock and key on that which is and is not a terrorist organization. Period.

Proof please?

I think Imad Moustapha, the Syrian ambassador to the United States, calling Israel a terrorist state in an interview on NPR yesterday was a pretty good indication of how they feel.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5618381

Feel free to listen.

Works about as well as all the other Resolutions that apply to Israel. *oops*

Or the rest of the Middle East. Problem is, by order of 1559, Hezbollah is supposed to be disarmed. By giving weapons to them, Iran is violating 1559. There is no resolution telling Israel to disarm.

It doesn't.

That does not surprise me despite the fact that all UNSC Resolutions have the full force of International Law.

Like most Americans, I couldn't give a shit about the UN or its resolutions. This administration has already proven that UN resolutions only matter when they serve its agenda. We simply don't care what the UN has to say.

Who is this we? Surely you are not talking about all Americans here.

My point is that the US doesn't hold the lock and key on that which is and is not a terrorist organization. Period.

You are indeed correct that we do not. I did not state that we did.

I think the Syrian ambassador to the United States calling Israel a terrorist state in an interview on NPR yesterday was a pretty good indication of how they feel.

That is not proof.

Where is the evidence that (Iranians, Syrians, Quatar, Saudis, etc) is supplying Hezbollah with weapons? The question is not "Where" the question is WHY?

They are (no doubt) helping them.. And they Should.

Or the rest of the Middle East. Problem is, by order of 1559, Hezbollah is supposed to be disarmed. By giving weapons to them, Iran is violating 1559. There is no resolution telling Israel to disarm.
Why should 1559 be enforced any more readily than 242? Or any number of Resolutions pertaining to other states around the globe?

You can't just cherry pick the ones you want to enforce because it suits you. It loses all legitimacy that way. They lose credibility and become no more than a worthless scrap of paper

The question is not "Where" the question is WHY?

They are (no doubt) helping Hezbollah.. And they Should.

In complete violation of International Law?

Why should 1559 be enforced any more readily than 242? Or any number of Resolutions pertaining to other states around the globe?

All resolutions have the full force of International Law. They all should be enforced.

You can't just cherry pick the ones you want to enforce because it suits you. It loses all legitimacy that way. They lose credibility and become no more than a worthless scrap of paper

You are indeed correct.

That is not proof.

The Syrian ambassador to the United States openly calling Israel a terrorist state is not proof that Syria believes Israel to be a terrorist state?

This is the man who speaks for Syria. It's his job to speak for Syria.

I'll take him at his word.

The Syrian ambassador to the United States openly calling Israel a terrorist state is not proof that Syria believes Israel to be a terrorist state?

This is the man who speaks for Syria. It's his job to speak for Syria.

I'll take him at his word.

Does Syria have a terrorist list that is easily accessable?

They are (no doubt) helping Hezbollah.. And they Should.[/

In complete violation of International Law?Thanks to the Bushites..International Law is a Joke these days.

Internatinal Law will have some value again -some day in the next decade/century- if its evenly applied to all sides.

All resolutions have the full force of International Law. They all should be enforced.

A law is meaningless when it is uninforceable.

Does Syria have a terrorist list that is easily accessable?

I don't know.

Probably not on the Web, but I suppose I'll look around and see.

A law is meaningless when it is uninforceable.

Did I say that it was not meaningless?

I don't know.

Probably not on the Web, but I suppose I'll look around and see.

I thank you :)

Did I say that it was not meaningless?

Nope! I'm just conversatin'.

My personal opinion is that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation. Nobody who has done as much humanitarian work for the people of Lebanon as Hezbollah has done can be terrorists. [/imho]

Thanks to the Bushites..International Law is a Joke these days.

I really hate to tell you this but it has been a joke when the first UN Resolution was completely violated. Hint, it was long before the Bush Administration came along.

Internatinal Law will have some value again -some day in the next decade/century- if its evenly applied to all sides.

Agreed.

Nope! I'm just conversatin'.

At least it is a good one :)

My personal opinion is that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation. Nobody who has done as much humanitarian work for the people of Lebanon as Hezbollah has done can be terrorists. [/imho]

There are 2 factions of Hezbollah. One that does the humanitarian work and I applaud them for that. Then there is the militant faction that are terrorists.

At least it is a good one :)

Aye ... not bad for so early in the morning.

There are 2 factions of Hezbollah. One that does the humanitarian work and I applaud them for that. Then there is the militant faction that are terrorists.

Unfortunately, Israel is making no distinction between the two.

Internatinal Law will have some value again -some day in the next decade/century- if its evenly applied to all sides.Agreed.Agreed.

*shakes Alleghany hands*
*leaves thread*

Aye ... not bad for so early in the morning.

I will take your word for it. It has been a pleasure in meeting you.

Unfortunately, Israel is making no distinction between the two.

Sometimes, it is difficult to distinguish between them. Sometimes. I wish it were done though.

Show me links if I'm to believe this!
Remember the missile that Hezbollah launched at an Israeli ship? It was an Iranian manufactured missile.

The missile, is a C-802 radar-guided anti-shipping missile manufactured in Iran using Chinese technology. Its range is estimated to be about 110 km.http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738695.html

I'd rather hear a good argument for why Iran supplying Hezbollah with weapons is a bad thing while the US supplying Israel with weapons is a good thing.
They are (no doubt) helping them.. And they Should.
All the warmongers are evil why can't you accept this!!?

My personal opinion is that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation. Nobody who has done as much humanitarian work for the people of Lebanon as Hezbollah has done can be terrorists.
They target and kill civilians. If the are doing any good, that doesn't cancel out their terrorism.

The Nazis helped white aryans, does this mean that they were OK?

Unfortunately, Israel is making no distinction between the two.
So because one end of Hezballah is humanitarian, both sides must be?

I'd rather hear a good argument for why Iran supplying Hezbollah with weapons is a bad thing while the US supplying Israel with weapons is a good thing.

Hezbollah is on the US list of terrorist organizations.

Hezbollah is not on the EU list of terrorist organizations.

Israel is on the Iranian and Syrian lists of terrorists organizations.

So, the US provides Israel with weapons to defend against a terrorist organization. Iran provides Hezbollah with weapons to defend against a terrorist organization.

No right or wrong, just subjective opinionry. Big fat deal.
How about because both Hezbollah and Iran have expressed a desire to commit genocide and because both Iran and Hezbollah have attacked US interests outside of Lebanon. Also Hezbollah has used it's cells in foreign nations, like Argentina, to bomb Jewish community centers and commit crimes to fund it's operations here in the USA.

They're fucking criminals, and they're genocidal.

The question is not "Where" the question is WHY?

They are (no doubt) helping them.. And they Should.
Anything to kill some Jews, right OceanDrive? I'd bet that you privately support the Hezbollah bombing of a Buenos Aires Jewish community center back in the day too.

How about because both Hezbollah and Iran have expressed a desire to commit genocide and because both Iran and Hezbollah have attacked US interests outside of Lebanon. Also Hezbollah has used it's cells in foreign nations, like Argentina, to bomb Jewish community centers and commit crimes to fund it's operations here in the USA.

They're fucking criminals, and they're genocidal.

Exactly, i'm tired of this "because the US and UK think that the Hezbollah are terrorists, we must think the exact opposite of what they think" kind of thinking.

They're fucking criminals, and they're genocidal.

Genocide? No. They want Israel gone. Hating Israel =/= hating Jews.

Genocide? No. They want Israel gone. Hating Israel =/= hating Jews.

Genocidal =/= Hating Jews.

Genocide? No. They want Israel gone. Hating Israel =/= hating Jews.
Oh, ok, that's why they blew up Jews in Argentina and erected a monument in Lebanon to the Hezbollah "martyr" who conducted the attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=273898&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0

Hezbollah suicide bomber under Iranian orders killing Jews in Argentina. I'd say that's not an attack on Israel, but on Jews in general.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=273898&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0

Hezbollah suicide bomber under Iranian orders killing Jews in Argentina. I'd say that's not an attack on Israel, but on Jews in general.

... from an Israeli newspaper? You should know better than that, DCD.

... from an Israeli newspaper? You should know better than that, DCD.
Plenty of other sources on that if you choose to google it. Also isn't Haaretz one of the most left wing publications in Israel?

Israel is on the Iranian and Syrian lists of terrorists organizations.

No Israel is on the Iranian and Syrian lists of things that must be wiped off the face of the earth. Big difference.

Plenty of other sources on that if you choose to google it. Also isn't Haaretz one of the most left wing publications in Israel?

I have no idea, honestly. I know nothing about Israel except it's way over there somewhere.

I have no idea, honestly. I know nothing about Israel except it's way over there somewhere.
I've heard it described that way once, but if there's an Israeli reading this thread maybe he'd be kind enough to point out Haaretz's political leanings.

Nope! I'm just conversatin'.

My personal opinion is that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation. Nobody who has done as much humanitarian work for the people of Lebanon as Hezbollah has done can be terrorists. [/imho]

Except when they are being terrorist ....I dont recall the last date of a terrorist act by Hezbollah.

They are a militia .

They are against the Israeli " occupation" of Palestine...

They " claim " to be fighting for Islam and lebanon...though as part of the government and a democracy they have undermined the legitimate goverment of Lebenon...thats not a terrorist act.

israel fires shells and drops bombs ...they fire rockets and missiles and mortars..thats war .

using civilians as shields and as a source of propaganda..
Its a tactic used sice the first TV camera was invented .

hezbollah has in the past commited terrorist acts...from a western standpoint and perspective ..but they have evolved into a different type of group.

I am not to confident IMO , to call them a terrorist organization.

Remember when they publicly condemned the attacks on 9 / 11 ?


kind of wierd huh ?


BERUIT, Nov. 13–(Al-Manar Television) Hezbollah’s deputy secretary general hosted a US delegation of families of September 11 victims in Beirut. The delegation presented the aim of its visit which was spreading peace and rejecting violence all over the world as well as communicating with parties and factions in order to have one stand facing terrorism and aggression. Sheikh Qassem said that Hezbollah condemns the Sept 11 attacks and the recent ones in Jordan stressing that both state terrorism and terror committed by some groups should be condemned because it is against humanity regardless religion language and nationality.




its way too simple to just call every group " terrorist " .


Iran is Shiite and they have their own " Persian " Imperialistic agenda..Hezbollah is part of that and Israel is the " cement " that keeps Arabs and Pesians and Sunni and Shiites from killing each other...most of the time..and continues to help keep dictators and militarist in power in the region.

Thats reality...its more than just terrorist and miltia's .


Russia kills me...


Hezbollah using noncombatants as human shield - Federation Council member
MOSCOW. Aug 5 (Interfax) - Hezbollah's tactic of using noncombatants as a human shield is unacceptable, said Russian Federation Council Constitutional Legislation Committee Chairman Yury Sharandin, who is also a deputy to the head of the Russian delegation to the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly (PACE).

"This tactic will be unsuccessful, because modern surveillance methods have unmasked this tactic, and what is coming to the foreground now is the fact that Hezbollah disregards the lives of peaceful civilians in Lebanon and uses them as a human shield," Sharandin told Interfax Saturday.

PACE's position has been clear from the very start, when it said that terrorist methods are unacceptable, Sharandin said. "PACE has unambiguously stated that bloodshed should be stopped," he said.

Hezbollah was bombed Israeli territory first, showing its disrespect for both international law and the Lebanese people, Sharandin said. "It was obvious after that that Israel's response would affect the innocent civilian population of Lebanon, but Hezbollah does not care about this," he said.

Hezbollah is using missile launchers installed on mobile chasses, "which can be driven up to any school, hospital, or house to start shelling Israeli territory," Sharandin said.

"In response to Israel's retaliatory attack, Hezbollah started shouting that Israel is behaving inappropriately and tried to attract the attention of the international community," he said.

Israel's actions are logical and understandable, Sharandin said. "Israel has to wipe out the source of danger, which is, by the way, stipulated by the UN Charter, which says that any state has the right of self-defense if an armed attack occurs against it," Sharandin said.

"A buffer zone should be set up in the southern part of Lebanon, where a peacekeeping contingent should be brought, and PACE supports this opinion," he said. va la

Nope! I'm just conversatin'.

My personal opinion is that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation. Nobody who has done as much humanitarian work for the people of Lebanon as Hezbollah has done can be terrorists. [/imho]

Humanitarian work? You mean like the kind of humanitarian way that Saddam used to do humanitarian work in northern Iraq? You know, he would help them rebuild their houses, start businesses, build schools and build up infrastructure and provide medicine and food until they got up on their feet and were able to take care of themselves. Of course he had to bomb the Kurds and gas the natives and make laws making it impossible for non-Sunnis to own property there anymore, forcing them to leave their ancestrial homes so that the people Saddam would give humanitarian aide to could move in and take all that property first…

If that’s what you mean by humanitarian work that the Hezbollah do then I agree with you. Ask a non-Muslim Lebanese what they think of the Hezbollah and then we’ll have something to talk about humanitarian work huh? 40% of Lebanon is not Muslim, but those people aren’t living where the Hezbollah are, you think there might be a correlation somewhere in there?

Hezbollah charter..or one translation of it .


Our Identity
We are often asked: Who are we, the Hizballah, and what is our identity? We are the sons of the umma (Muslim community) - the party of God (Hizb Allah) the vanguard of which was made victorious by God in Iran. There the vanguard succeeded to lay down the bases of a Muslim state which plays a central role in the world. We obey the orders of one leader, wise and just, that of our tutor and faqih (jurist) who fulfills all the necessary conditions: Ruhollah Musawi Khomeini. God save him!

By virtue of the above, we do not constitute an organized and closed party in Lebanon. nor are we a tight political cadre. We are an umma linked to the Muslims of the whole world by the solid doctrinal and religious connection of Islam, whose message God wanted to be fulfilled by the Seal of the Prophets, i.e., Muhammad. This is why whatever touches or strikes the Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Philippines and elsewhere reverberates throughout the whole Muslim umma of which we are an integral part. Our behavior is dictated to us by legal principles laid down by the light of an overall political conception defined by the leading jurist (wilayat al-faqih).

As for our culture, it is based on the Holy Koran, the Sunna and the legal rulings of the faqih who is our source of imitation (marja' al-taqlid). Our culture is crystal clear. It is not complicated and is accessible to all.

No one can imagine the importance of our military potential as our military apparatus is not separate from our overall social fabric. Each of us is a fighting soldier. And when it becomes necessary to carry out the Holy War, each of us takes up his assignment in the fight in accordance with the injunctions of the Law, and that in the framework of the mission carried out under the tutelage of the Commanding Jurist.

Our Fight
The US has tried, through its local agents, to persuade the people that those who crushed their arrogance in Lebanon and frustrated their conspiracy against the oppressed (mustad'afin) were nothing but a bunch of fanatic terrorists whose sole aim is to dynamite bars and destroy slot machines. Such suggestions cannot and will not mislead our umma, for the whole world knows that whoever wishes to oppose the US, that arrogant superpower, cannot indulge in marginal acts which may make it deviate from its major objective. We combat abomination and we shall tear out its very roots, its primary roots, which are the US. All attempts made to drive us into marginal actions will fail, especially as our determination to fight the US is solid.

We declare openly and loudly that we are an umma which fears God only and is by no means ready to tolerate injustice, aggression and humiliation. America, its Atlantic Pact allies, and the Zionist entity in the holy land of Palestine, attacked us and continue to do so without respite. Their aim is to make us eat dust continually. This is why we are, more and more, in a state of permanent alert in order to repel aggression and defend our religion, our existence, our dignity. They invaded our country, destroyed our villages, slit the throats of our children, violated our sanctuaries and appointed masters over our people who committed the worst massacres against our umma. They do not cease to give support to these allies of Israel, and do not enable us to decide our future according to our own wishes.

In a single night the Israelis and the Phalangists executed thousands of our sons, women and children in Sabra and Shatilla. No international organization protested or denounced this ferocious massacre in an effective manner, a massacre perpetrated with the tacit accord of America's European allies, which had retreated a few days, maybe even a few hours earlier, from the Palestinian camps. The Lebanese defeatists accepted putting the camps under the protection of that crafty fox, the US envoy Philip Habib.

We have no alternative but to confront aggression by sacrifice. The coordination between the Phalangists and Israel continues and develops. A hundred thousand victims - this is the approximate balance sheet of crimes committed by them and by the US against us. Almost half a million Muslims were forced to leave their homes. Their quarters were virtually totally destroyed in Nab'a, my own Beirut suburb, as well as in Burj Hammud, Dekonaneh, Tel Zaatar, Sinbay, Ghawarina and Jubeil - all in areas controlled today by the 'Lebanese Forces',. The Zionist occupation then launched its usurpatory invasion of Lebanon in full and open collusion with the Phalanges. The latter condemned all attempts to resist the invading forces. They participated in the implementation of certain Israeli plans in order to accomplish its Lebanese dream and acceded to all Israeli requests in order to gain power.

And this is, in fact, what happened. Bashir Jumayyil, that butcher, seized power with the help also of OPEC countries and the Jumayyil family. Bashir tried to improve his ugly image by joining the six-member Committee of Public Safety presided over by former President Elias Sarkis, which was nothing but an American-Israeli bridge borrowed by the Phalangists in order to control the oppressed. Our people could not tolerate humiliation any more. It destroyed the oppressors, the invaders and their lackeys. But the US persisted in its folly and installed Amin Jumayyil to replace his brother. Some of his first so called achievements were to destroy the homes of refugees and other displaced persons, attack mosques, and order the army to bombard the southern suburbs of Beirut, where the oppressed people resided. He invited European troops to help him against us and signed the May 17th, [1984] accord with Israel making Lebanon an American protectorate.

Our people could not bear any more treachery. It decided to oppose infidelity - be it French, American or Israeli - by striking at their headquarters and launching a veritable war of resistance against the Occupation forces. Finally, the enemy had to decide to retreat by stages.

Our Objectives
Let us put it truthfully: the sons of Hizhallah know who are their major enemies in the Middle East - the Phalanges, Israel, France and the US. The sons of our umma are now in a state of growing confrontation with them, and will remain so until the realization of the following three objectives:

(a) to expel the Americans. the French and their allies definitely from Lebanon, putting an end to any colonialist entity on our land;
(b) to submit the Phalanges to a just power and bring them all to justice for the crimes they have perpetrated against Muslims and Christians;
(c) to permit all the sons of our people to determine their future and to choose in all the liberty the form of government they desire. We call upon all of them to pick the option of Islamic government which, alone, is capable of guaranteeing justice and liberty for all. Only an Islamic regime can stop any further tentative attempts of imperialistic infiltration into our country.
These are Lebanon's objectives; those are its enemies. As for our friends, they are all the world's oppressed peoples. Our friends are also those who combat our enemies and who defend us from their evil. Towards these friends, individuals as well as organizations, we turn and say:
Friends, wherever you are in Lebanon... we are in agreement with you on the great and necessary objectives: destroying American hegemony in our land; putting an end to the burdensome Israeli Occupation; beating back all the Phalangists' attempts to monopolize power and administration.
Even though we have, friends, quite different viewpoints as to the means of the struggle, on the levels upon which it must be carried out, we should surmount these tiny divergencies and consolidate cooperation between us in view of the grand design.
We are an umma which adheres to the message of Islam. We want all the oppressed to be able to study the divine message in order to bring justice, peace and tranquillity to the world. This is why we don't want to impose Islam upon anybody, as much as we that others impose upon us their convictions and their political systems. We don't want Islam to reign in Lebanon by force as is the case with the Maronites today. This is the minimum that we can accept in order to be able to accede by legal means to realize our ambitions, to save Lebanon from its dependence upon East and West, to put an end to foreign occupation and to adopt a regime freely wanted by the people of Lebanon.
This is our perception of the present state of affairs. This is the Lebanon we envision. In the light of our conceptions, our opposition to the present system is the function of two factors; (1) the present regime is the product of an arrogance so unjust that no reform or modification can remedy it. It should be changed radically, and (2) World Imperialism which is hostile to Islam.

We consider that all opposition in Lebanon voiced in the name of reform can only profit, ultimately, the present system. All such opposition which operates within the framework of the conservation and safeguarding of the present constitution without demanding changes at the level of the very foundation of the regime is, hence, an opposition of pure formality which cannot satisfy the interests of the oppressed masses. Likewise, any opposition which confronts the present regime but within the limits fixed by it, is an illusory opposition which renders a great service to the Jumayyil system. Moreover, we cannot be concerned by any proposition of political reform which accepts the rotten system actually in effect. We could not care less about the creation of this or that governmental coalition or about the participation of this or that political personality in some ministerial post, which is but a part of this unjust regime.

The politics followed by the chiefs of political Maronism through the 'Lebanese Front' and the 'Lebanese Forces' cannot guarantee peace and tranquillity for the Christians of Lebanon, whereas it is predicated upon 'asabiyya (narrow-minded particularism), on confessional privileges and on the alliance with colonialism. The Lebanese crisis has proven that confessional privileges are one of the principal causes of the great explosion which ravaged the country. It also proved that outside help was of no use to the Christians of Lebanon, just when they need it most. The bell tolled for the fanatic Christians to rid themselves of denominational allegiance and of illusion deriving from the monopolization of privileges to the detriment of other communities. The Christians should answer the appeal from heaven and have recourse to reason instead of arms, to persuasion instead of confessionalism.

To the Christians
If you, Christians, cannot tolerate that Muslims share with you certain domains of government, Allah has also made it intolerable for Muslims to participate in an unjust regime, unjust for you and for us, in a regime which is not predicated upon the prescriptions (ahkam) of religion and upon the basis of the Law (the Shari’a) as laid down by Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets. If you search for justice, who is more just than Allah? It is He who sent down from the sky the message of Islam through his successive prophets in order that they judge the people and give everyone his rights. If you were deceived and misled into believing that we anticipate vengeance against you - your fears are unjustified. For those of you who are peaceful, continue to live in our midst without anybody even thinking to trouble you.

We don't wish you evil. We call upon you to embrace Islam so that you can be happy in this world and the next. If you refuse to adhere to Islam, maintain your ties with the Muslims and don't take part in any activity against them. Free yourselves from the consequences of hateful confessionalism. Banish from your hearts all fanaticism and parochialism. Open your hearts to our Call (da'wa) which we address to you. Open yourselves up to Islam where you'll find salvation and happiness upon earth and in the hereafter. We extend this invitation also to all the oppressed among the non-Muslims. As for those who belong to Islam only formally, we exhort them to adhere to Islam in religious practice and to renounce all fanaticisms which are rejected by our religion.

World Scene
We reject both the USSR and the US, both Capitalism and Communism, for both are incapable of laying the foundations for a just society.

With special vehemence we reject UNIFIL as they were sent by world arrogance to occupy areas evacuated by Israel and serve for the latter as a buffer zone. They should be treated much like the Zionists. All should know that the goals of the Phalangists regime do not carry any weight with the Combatants of the Holy War, i.e., the Islamic resistance. This is the quagmire which awaits all foreign intervention.

There, then, are our conceptions and our objectives which serve as our basis and inspire our march. Those who accept them should know that all rights belong to Allah and He bestows them. Those who reject them, we'll be patient with them, till Allah decides between us and the people of injustice.

The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel .....

We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity

They are a militia .

That should have been disarmed persuent to 1559.

They are against the Israeli " occupation" of Palestine...

Except that they were formed to liberate Lebanon and not Palestine.

They " claim " to be fighting for Islam and lebanon...though as part of the government and a democracy they have undermined the legitimate goverment of Lebenon...thats not a terrorist act.

Agreed.

SNIP



{ quote They " claim " to be fighting for Islam and lebanon...though as part of the government and a democracy they have undermined the legitimate goverment of Lebenon...thats not a terrorist act. )

Agreed.

OI? Armed undermining of a legit. Government by some private militia ISN'T terrorism?

OI? Armed undermining of a legit. Government by some private militia ISN'T terrorism?

Was the start of the Civil War a terrorist act? After all, the South was trying to undermine the American Government.

OI? Armed undermining of a legit. Government by some private militia ISN'T terrorism?


Nope .


ter·ror·ism (tĕr'ə-rĭz'əm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Was the start of the Civil War a terrorist act? After all, the South was trying to undermine the American Government.

Funny you should mention that.
Let's just say that I would have sentenced Lee to Jack Ketch.
But this might get tangential.

Funny you should mention that.
Let's just say that I would have sentenced Lee to Jack Ketch.
But this might get tangential.

You did not answer my question.

Nope .

ter·ror·ism (tĕr'ə-rĭz'əm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


OK, if that fails to qualify, then I suppose that not even the Rote Armee Fraktione qualifies as terrorist.

You did not answer my question.


The answer is obviously YES.
To add to the charge of terrorism, it is also treasonous.

The answer is obviously YES.
To add to the charge of terrorism, it is also treasonous.

Even though it was not a terrorist act? I am glad I do not have your interpretation of the word of terrorism.

Even though it was not a terrorist act? I am glad I do not have your interpretation of the word of terrorism.


Unlawful use of force - against Fed. Govt.

Except when they are being terrorist ....I dont recall the last date of a terrorist act by Hezbollah.

They are a militia .

They are against the Israeli " occupation" of Palestine...

They " claim " to be fighting for Islam and lebanon...though as part of the government and a democracy they have undermined the legitimate goverment of Lebenon...thats not a terrorist act.

israel fires shells and drops bombs ...they fire rockets and missiles and mortars..thats war .

using civilians as shields and as a source of propaganda..
Its a tactic used sice the first TV camera was invented .

hezbollah has in the past commited terrorist acts...from a western standpoint and perspective ..but they have evolved into a different type of group.

I am not to confident IMO , to call them a terrorist organization.

Remember when they publicly condemned the attacks on 9 / 11 ?


kind of wierd huh ?





its way too simple to just call every group " terrorist " .


Iran is Shiite and they have their own " Persian " Imperialistic agenda..Hezbollah is part of that and Israel is the " cement " that keeps Arabs and Pesians and Sunni and Shiites from killing each other...most of the time..and continues to help keep dictators and militarist in power in the region.

Thats reality...its more than just terrorist and miltia's .


Russia kills me...
Condemning 9/11 ain't no big thing. Any nation that came out in support of 9/11 was risking an angry USA pounding their country and population into shit.

Unlawful use of force - against Fed. Govt.


So surrounding the washington monument and staging a peace protest and refusing to move would be considered tedrrorism...an unlawfull occupation of government land to coerce a change in politics by the lawfully elected government...

Bogs I hate to say this but if you were ever elected it would be my duty to shoot you. If you really would try to govern with those priciples and that attitude.

Can you say facism ? think about it for a second .

Unlawful use of force - against Fed. Govt.

Closer to treason than it is to terrorism. Unlawful use of force according to whom?

So surrounding the washington monument and staging a peace protest and refusing to move would be considered tedrrorism...an unlawfull occupation of government land to coerce a change in politics by the lawfully elected government...

Bogs I hate to say this but if you were ever elected it would be my duty to shoot you. If you really would try to govern with those priciples and that attitude.

Can you say facism ? think about it for a second .

I don't plan to run for office.
If I were in power, though, expect pure Shi Hwang Di.

Naw. What you describe would not be terrorism. It would, however be subversive.

Condemning 9/11 ain't no big thing. Any nation that came out in support of 9/11 was risking an angry USA pounding their country and population into shit.


Not really . Thats not the point anyway...are they are terrorist group anymore ?

I believe they were in the past but have become something different .

They are an extension of Iran and part of the Lebanese government and an Armed militia group that is fighting Israel , with the support of both Syria and Iran .

But as of now not a terrorist organization.

Al Queda = terrorist


BTW I hate sheep and wouldnt farm them...I want all sheep DEAD and made into chops and sweaters !

Closer to treason than it is to terrorism. Unlawful use of force according to whom?

Ask Lincoln.
Since there was no legal CS, any shot fred by anyone claiming to represent the CS is illegal.

Of course, I happily concede that the terrorism aspect is overshadowed by the treason-aspect.

Ask Lincoln.
Since there was no legal CS, any shot fred by anyone claiming to represent the CS is illegal.

No legal CS according to whom?

Of course, I happily concede that the terrorism aspect is overshadowed by the treason-aspect.

How big of you.

We had a REALLY great thread about the civil war going ..its a shame this would have fit in well there .

No legal CS according to whom?



How big of you.

As I said: ask Lincoln. The assertion that seccession can ever be legal strikes me as claptrap. I don't see no Law saying you can secede.

As I said: ask Lincoln.

I am asking you. Illegal according to whom?

The assertion that seccession can ever be legal strikes me as claptrap. I don't see no Law saying you can secede.

Is there a law that said you could not secede?

I am asking you. Illegal according to whom?

I said: ask Lincoln.

Is there a law that said you could not secede?
Evasive manouvers. No law says you can. Those who argue = traitors.

I said: ask Lincoln.

He is dead. Hard to ask him when he is dead. Let me rephrase the question, How was the CSA illegal?

Evasive manouvers. No law says you can. Those who argue = traitors.

Why are they traitors?

He is dead. Hard to ask him when he is dead. Let me rephrase the question, How was the CSA illegal?



Why are they traitors?


By failing to uphold the principle of Central Authority.
Quite sufficient. Ask the Vendeeists. Dead too these days.

By failing to uphold the principle of Central Authority.
Quite sufficient. Ask the Vendeeists. Dead too these days.

And what if Central Authority abuses their authority? What are you supposed to do?

You also did not answer my last question but now it ties in to these two questions.

And what if Central Authority abuses their authority? What are you supposed to do?

You also did not answer my last question but now it ties in to these two questions.

Obedience to Authority is derived from place.
Shi (勢 shì): legitimacy, power or charisma. It is the position of the ruler, not the ruler himself, that holds the power.
Max Weber says the same.

In the surn case? New Presidential Elections. 4 years later.

Obedience to Authority is derived from place.
Shi (勢 shì): legitimacy, power or charisma. It is the position of the ruler, not the ruler himself, that holds the power.
Max Weber says the same.

In the surn case? New Presidential Elections. 4 years later.

You are really good at dodging the intent of the question. And if the nation is not a democracy?

You are really good at dodging the intent of the question. And if the nation is not a democracy?

Was the US a democracy?
Was it argued that the Leb. Govt was no democracy?
Utterly facetious point.

Meanwhile: obedience to Authority. The First Principle.
Even animals ( dogs, wolves, monkeys, cattle etc. ) naturaly display it.

Was the US a democracy?
Was it argued that the Leb. Govt was no democracy?
Utterly facetious point.

You have yet to answer my questions and I have a feeling you are not going to.

Meanwhile: obedience to Authority. The First Principle.
Even animals ( dogs, wolves, monkeys, cattle etc. ) naturaly display it.

Even the head animal has another animal that will challenge it.

Guys, none of this really matters.

What does? A few simple facts. Hezbollah is a Lebanese faction. It has every right to fight for the fredom of Lebanon, and for it's future; it's actions in opposing occupation were, by and large, legitimate.

Israel is a separate country, however. And one no longer occupying any part of Lebanon.

Hezbollah attacked Israel. Lebanon did nothing to stop them. Therefore, Lebanon comitted an act of war. Israel called them on it, and has exercised it's legitimate right to defend itself.

In this case, by all precedents and international agreements such as the Hague and Geneva conventions, Lebanon, and Lebanon alone, is the responsible party.

Guys, none of this really matters.

What does? A few simple facts. Hezbollah is a Lebanese faction. It has every right to fight for the fredom of Lebanon, and for it's future; it's actions in opposing occupation were, by and large, legitimate.

Yep.

Israel is a separate country, however. And one no longer occupying any part of Lebanon.

Correct.

Hezbollah attacked Israel. Lebanon did nothing to stop them. Therefore, Lebanon comitted an act of war. Israel called them on it, and has exercised it's legitimate right to defend itself.

You are right on top of things.

In this case, by all precedents and international agreements such as the Hague and Geneva conventions, Lebanon, and Lebanon alone, is the responsible party.

An argument can be made against this statement.

An argument can be made against this statement

True, but I feel it is a weak one. Technically, Israel probably should have officially requested the Lebanese government stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel. However, given that Lebanon and Israel don't, to my knowledge, have diplomatic relations, and that Lebanon has basically ignored other calls for the same thing, I don't think the technical violation is all that important.

Israel is a legitimate gov't who is hated not because of their actions, but because they are Jewish (By iran/Syria).

Therefore, Iran and Syria's defining of Israel as a 'terrorist state' is moot. Iran and Syria, however, actively support terror, and they're on the list not because they are Iranian/Syrian, but because of their actions.

Nobody who has done as much humanitarian work for the people of Lebanon as Hezbollah has done can be terrorists.

The LTTE also runs a lot of humanitarian work for the SL Tamils. A heck of a lot more than Hezbollah and they also have a relatively more just cause as an excuse.

Does not mean that they are not a terrorist organization.

Hezbollah is a terrorist org. Giving arms to it may be Iran and Syria's prorogative. But they have to face the consequences of doing that. There is no moral equivalency between US's support to Israel and Iran's support to Hezbollah.

Iran and Syria, however, actively support terror, and they're on the list not because they are Iranian/Syrian, but because of their actions.The list...

What List?? Your List?

Who gets to decide: "Who is a terrorist and who is not"

You?

The list...

What List?? Your List?

Who gets to decide: "Who is a terrorist and who is not"

You?
Me. I get to decide. Ok? Is the damn issue settled now?

Me. I get to decide. Ok? Is the damn issue settled now?Its YOUR list.. so you get to decide who is on it.



Hezbollah is NOT on my List ;)

Its YOUR list.. so you get to decide who is on it.



Hezbollah is NOT on my List ;)
Then I suppose you approve of killing Jews in Buenos Aires. It's not terrorism, killing those damn kikes is just the right thing to do, right?

The list...

What List?? Your List?

Who gets to decide: "Who is a terrorist and who is not"

You?

We do.

Americans.

We're nice people

but kill our citizens

and

we'll bomb your country,


kill your leaders,

and

make things hell for you.

We guarantee

Its YOUR list.. so you get to decide who is on it.



Hezbollah is NOT on my List ;)

Because launching rockets intentionally aimed at killing civies is for suckas.

That's it, I'm posting IDF pictures to bring some logic into this thread.

Who gets to decide: "Who is a terrorist and who is not"

You?We do.

Americans.

We're nice people

but kill our citizens

and

we'll bomb your country,


kill your leaders,

and

make things hell for you.

We guaranteeI see.

... from an Israeli newspaper? You should know better than that, DCD.
Why are you so eager to defend Jew-killing?

I have no idea, honestly. I know nothing about Israel except it's way over there somewhere.
Ignorant and proud of it, are you?

Was the start of the Civil War a terrorist act? After all, the South was trying to undermine the American Government.
The CSA was hardly a private militia.

The CSA was hardly a private militia.

Indeed you are correct.

Why are you so eager to defend (Arabs)-killing?he is not defending Semite-Killing..

These guys are:
http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=lobby%20%22end%20times%22%20Christians

he is not defending Semite-Killing..

These guys are:
http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=lobby%20%22end%20times%22%20Christians
So the Christian right are for Arab-killing, and you and Keruvalia are for Jew-killing. How can you criticise the Christian right when you're just as bad as them?

So the Christian right are for Arab-KillingYes they are (end-times Christians are).
you know. The ones Lobbyng Washington against a Cease-Fire.

you and Keruvalia are for Jew-killing. No we are not, (I know Keruvalia well enough.. and I Know he is Not.)
(you and Keruvalia) How can you criticise the Christian right when you're just as bad as them?Putting us on the same level as those people is.. insulting (to say the least).

At least it is a good one :)



There are 2 factions of Hezbollah. One that does the humanitarian work and I applaud them for that. Then there is the militant faction that are terrorists.

The two cannot be seperated. Israel doesn't bother. Remember that hospital that Israel blew up? It wasn't some kind of terrorist strongpoint, it was just a hospital built by Hezbollah.

The two cannot be seperated. Israel doesn't bother. Remember that hospital that Israel blew up? It wasn't some kind of terrorist strongpoint, it was just a hospital built by Hezbollah.

You mean the same hospital that the IDF raided, captured Hezbollah soldiers and killed more of them without taking a single casualty? The same hospital that was later identified as a Hezbollah CnC HQ?

You mean the same hospital that the IDF raided, captured Hezbollah soldiers and killed more of them without taking a single casualty? The same hospital that was later identified as a Hezbollah CnC HQ?

So sayeth the IDF...

So sayeth the IDF...

I would take their word over Hezbollah's any day of this age.

I would take their word over Hezbollah's any day of this age.

ISrael is a legitimate gov't. Hezz is a bunch of rebadged iranians.

So the Christian right are for Arab-killing, and you and Keruvalia are for Jew-killing. How can you criticise the Christian right when you're just as bad as them?

To be honest we're more interested in killing anyone screaming "ALLAHU ACKBAR!" while running at us with a satchel bag containing cemtex, carpenters nails, and rat poison.

So sayeth the IDF...

The words out of the mouth of the IDF are right behind God.

Commence IDF-worship

*falls prostrate on ground*

Yes they are (end-times Christians are).
you know. The ones Lobbyng Washington against a Cease-Fire.

No we are not, (I know Keruvalia well enough.. and I Know he is Not.)
Putting us on the same level as those people is.. insulting (to say the least).
Hezballah are an organisation that kills Jews not only in Israel but internationally. You say that Iran and Syria should supply them with weapons.

Keruvalia says that Hezballah are not a terrorist group, despite the fact that they intentionally kill Jewish civilians.

Sounds like support for Jew-killing to me.

The words out of the mouth of the IDF are right behind God.

Commence IDF-worship

*falls prostrate on ground*
Worship of the IDF is a severe sin.

In complete violation of International Law?
Now, we all know in OD's case that it is perfectly OK to violate International Law so long as you hurt Jews in the process.

So sayeth the IDF...
Let me guess, you see AL Manar as a real news source. (This is the Hezbollah owned station that made a documentary saying the Jews have an annual ritual of killing Christians to use their blood in Matzah.)

Hezbolla is a puppet of Iran like North Korea is a puppet of China....too a point!

You say that Iran and Syria should supply (Hezbolah) with weapons.Yes.. I say it.

Let me say it again..
Iranians, Syrians, Saudis , and other do help Hezbollah ..and they Should.

I stand by that statement.

Yes.. I say it.

Let me say it again..
Iranians, Syrians, Saudis , and other do help Hezbollah ..and they Should.

I stand by that statement.

Then you my friend have just lost whatever respect you think you might have earned. By supporting Hezbollah, you are supporting illegal rocket attacks, illegal cross border attacks, and a violation of UN Resolution 1559 that calls for the disarmament of all Lebanonese and non-Lebanonese militias. All but one has done so and by your support for them, you are encouraging such behavior. Nice to see you do not want peace in the Middle East.

Then you my friend have just lost whatever respect you think you might have earned.oh noes..

*cries*
:D :D :p :D

Israel is a dick.

Hezbollah is a bitch.

Solution: Disarm Hezbollah, smack the Palestinian extremists that would continue to support it, and tell Israel to stop being a dick to the arabs around them.

There needs to be a third party outside of the two that solves the situation, not with missiles from Hezbollah, but by bitchslapping the people in charge of both countries and telling them both to settle the fuck down.