NationStates Jolt Archive

There is no doubt western culture/civilization is the powerful and rich and enjoy the highest quality of life the world has ever seen and is the single greatest achievement of mankind.

Now the question is how did the west achieve such greatness. Largely it is due to what some might call "immoral" acts. Things like exploiting weaker countries and people, carrying out secret military operations around the world, proping up governments or economic deals at the expense of others benefiting their people.

what Im getting at is do you care that the west as done such things or are you happy that you are one of the lucky ones and leave it at that. Many might claim to care, but chances are when it comes down to it people dont care. So, do you care?

Now the question is how did the west achieve such greatness. Largely it is due to what some might call "immoral" acts.

Only if you can consider quirks of geography like the shapes of the continents and what species were available to be domesticated to be "immoral acts". Next try please...

I care that half of the West hates itself. Like you, Soviestan.

I care that half of the West hates itself. Like you, Soviestan.
er, no actually I was arguing the opposite. The fact is reguardless of what is done to preserve our way of life I dont have a problem with so long as I have a/c, internet, cable, good food, and have good healthcare. My point is that some on here may argue with that but in fact they dont care either, they are just afraid to admit it.

I do care...and it pisses me of that most of the west are totally ignorant of how lucky we are...

There is no doubt western culture/civilization is the powerful and rich and enjoy the highest quality of life the world has ever seen and is the single greatest achievement of mankind.

Now the question is how did the west achieve such greatness. Largely it is due to what some might call "immoral" acts. Things like exploiting weaker countries and people, carrying out secret military operations around the world, proping up governments or economic deals at the expense of others benefiting their people.

what Im getting at is do you care that the west as done such things or are you happy that you are one of the lucky ones and leave it at that. Many might claim to care, but chances are when it comes down to it people dont care. So, do you care?
Do I care? Yes. In fact, I care more about what my own nation/culture does wrong than I do about what other people do wrong.

But do I care enough? Probably not. On a day-to-day basis, I probably spend only about 10-15 minutes thinking about domestic policy or internation issues. I'm much more busy with my own life.

There is no doubt western culture/civilization is the powerful and rich and enjoy the highest quality of life the world has ever seen and is the single greatest achievement of mankind.

Really? I doubt it.

Really? I doubt it.
ok, name something better.

ok, name something better.

Alexandrian Greece?

Minoans (Atlantians)?

Rome?

Or maybe the Mongolians (at their height). They got to be the biggest out of anyone.

Alexandrian Greece?

Minoans (Atlantians)?

Rome?

Or maybe the Mongolians (at their height). They got to be the biggest out of anyone.
yeah, did any of them have excellent healthcare, clean drinking water, electricity, phones or cars? oh no, really? ok then try again.

yeah, did any of them have excellent healthcare, clean drinking water, electricity, phones or cars? oh no, really? ok then try again.

Ownt.

yeah, did any of them have excellent healthcare, clean drinking water, electricity, phones or cars? oh no, really? ok then try again.

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

ok, name something better.

Any society based on long term sustainability, rather than a headlong dash into probable disaster and potential extinction.

Alexandrian Greece?

Minoans (Atlantians)?

Rome?

Or maybe the Mongolians (at their height). They got to be the biggest out of anyone.
Yes, all those were pretty awesome civilizations...as long as you were male. If not, you could enjoy a life of slavery as the property of whichever man felt like impregnating you until you died in childbirth.

Not that Western society is far beyond this, but every little bit helps. :)

Alexandrian Greece?

Minoans (Atlantians)?

Rome?

Or maybe the Mongolians (at their height). They got to be the biggest out of anyone.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't the first three subsets of "western culture/civilization"?

yeah, did any of them have excellent healthcare, clean drinking water, electricity, phones or cars? oh no, really? ok then try again.

You can't use technological advances which haven't been made yet as a benchmark for the quality of life of other cultures. Otherwise, you might as well say that the West's quality of life sucks cause it has no hover cars, colonies on Mars, starships and what have you.

You can however use technological advances which existed at the point of time.

Any society based on long term sustainability, rather than a headlong dash into probable disaster and potential extinction.
long term sustainability is just code for "lets abandon our way of life comforts in an effort to prevent a hyped up disaster theory/ies that will never actually happen."

You can't use technological advances which haven't been made yet as a benchmark for the quality of life of other cultures. Otherwise, you might as well say that the West's quality of life sucks cause it has no hover cars, colonies on Mars, starships and what have you.

You can however use technological advances which existed at the point of time.
My point is that life in the west today is better than any other place or period of time in history.

My point is that life in the west today is better than any other place or period of time in history.

Again, you cannot use technological advances WHICH SIMPLY DID NOT EXIST THEN as a benchmark.

What you can use is comparable levels of social and economic opportunity that existed for the people of that era and how they achieved it. Using technological advances as a benchmark is both dishonest and will not provide proper comparisons at all.

My point is that life in the west today is better than any other place or period of time in history.
Life tomorrow in the West will be better than life today in the West.
Life next Tuesday will be better than life today.
Life in 5 years will be better than life today.

Whats your point?

Again, you cannot use technological advances WHICH SIMPLY DID NOT EXIST THEN as a benchmark.

Of course you can. You're just saying that the West isn't as good as Rome was. I'm telling you that it's better.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't the first three subsets of "western culture/civilization"?

That's true too.

Again, you cannot use technological advances WHICH SIMPLY DID NOT EXIST THEN as a benchmark.

What you can use is comparable levels of social and economic opportunity that existed for the people of that era and how they achieved it. Using technological advances as a benchmark is both dishonest and will not provide proper comparisons at all.
Who says I can't use it? Your trying to change the fact that we have those things today, and those things allow us to live more comfortably than ever before in recorded history.

Life tomorrow in the West will be better than life today in the West.
Life next Tuesday will be better than life today.
Life in 5 years will be better than life today.

Whats your point?

Well, technically, life COULD be worse then, but anyway...

They did not WANT that kind of tech then. They were happy how they were...

Life tomorrow in the West will be better than life today in the West.
Life next Tuesday will be better than life today.
Life in 5 years will be better than life today.

Whats your point?
My point is that it is better today than it was in say the Roman empire, something some people on here won't accept.

They did not WANT that kind of tech then. They were happy how they were...
The Mongols didn't want cars? :confused:

If they were invented, I'm pretty fuckin sure the Mongols would own all the cars at the time.

My point is that it is better today than it was in say the Roman empire, something some people on here won't accept.

Of course they won't accept it. They're terrified of the thought that they might be living in the greatest civilisation of all time.

Of course they won't accept it. They're terrified of the thought that they might be living in the greatest civilisation of all time.That is terrifying...how utterly humanity would have to fail in reaching its potential for this to be the best it can do.

The west didn't win the world through acting nice. We won the world simply because we've been more effective at killing off the competition. That's always been the way of the world and it always will be. Too many today in the western world forget that.

That is terrifying...how utterly humanity would have to fail in reaching its potential for this to be the best it can do.
amen.

The west didn't win the world through acting nice. We won the world simply because we've been more effective at killing off the competition. That's always been the way of the world and it always will be. Too many today in the western world forget that.
that doesn't justify continuing to act in that manner now

that doesn't justify continuing to act in that manner now
If you show weakness then it won't be long before someone else takes your place at the top of the food chain.

That is terrifying...how utterly humanity would have to fail in reaching its potential for this to be the best it can do.

I never said that this was the best it CAN reach, just that as of now, this is the best it has reached.

that doesn't justify continuing to act in that manner now
The second the west lets its guard down is the second it falls.

The second the west lets its guard down is the second it falls.
Yes, the rest of the world circles like sharks below us, coveting our televisions and internet, just waiting for us to relax so they can attack!:rolleyes:

The second the west lets its guard down is the second it falls.

we've had a guard down for a long time then

I'd say that I honestly don't care about the bad things the west has done in the past in an ideal world such things wouldn’t be done but subconsciously people don’t care about what happens on the other side of the world to a different culture thus I also don’t care what the west does to make sure that I stay happy in my ignorance

And I wouldn’t say the west is the greatest thing ever were a culture full of greedy slobs who aren’t happy because we assume that happiness comes from items you could actually say were one of the worlds failures because unlike allot of the world we are unhappy despite the fact that we have so much

Now a great civilization would be the likes of nations like Sparta your regular Joe Spartan would never expect to end up living on the street they also actually felt a purpose to there life and were a happy people despite not having the things that we take for granted(of course no westerner would feel this to be a great place to live because were brought up on entirely different values)

Yes, the rest of the world circles like sharks below us, coveting our televisions and internet, just waiting for us to relax so they can attack!:rolleyes:
Yes, actually thats true no matter how scarcastic you were trying to be.

SNIP
what Im getting at is do you care that the west as done such things or are you happy that you are one of the lucky ones and leave it at that. Many might claim to care, but chances are when it comes down to it people dont care. So, do you care?


I'm happy I'm lucky. Wouldn't want it to be another way - we might be less lucky.

"The West" is a direction, not an amorphous political entity bent on world domination by "keeping the Black man down." The fact that individuals within a dominant culture would put personal profit over individuals in another culture is far from surprising or even worth noting for anyone who has studied society for long enough. Welcome to competition, get used to it.

Yes, actually thats true no matter how scarcastic you were trying to be.
Got any proof of that? Until 9/11, we were able to get along with the rest of the world, even the USSR before it collapsed.

There is no doubt western culture/civilization is the powerful and rich and enjoy the highest quality of life the world has ever seen and is the single greatest achievement of mankind.

Now the question is how did the west achieve such greatness. Largely it is due to what some might call "immoral" acts. Things like exploiting weaker countries and people, carrying out secret military operations around the world, proping up governments or economic deals at the expense of others benefiting their people.

what Im getting at is do you care that the west as done such things or are you happy that you are one of the lucky ones and leave it at that. Many might claim to care, but chances are when it comes down to it people dont care. So, do you care?
You know, what makes us great isn't training contra rebels to overthrow the elected Sandinista government of Nicaragua or waging a pointless war on Iraq. What makes us great is having political and economic systems that encourages people to experiment and take risks and live their lives as they please. That's why the West and nations influenced by Western culture get rich and stay rich.

You simply can't do that sort of thing in corrupt little dusty countries where there is no real educational system and every little government beaurocrat wants to take a little bribe or kickback just to let your business exist. That's why there is no Middle Eastern Boeing or Airbus and why there is no African Microsoft. Starting such a company would be incredibly expensive if you have to hire do-nothing nephews of political figures and kick back money to hordes of greedy, parasitic politicians. Plus there aren't as many educated people in those places. Africans who manage to attend university end up moving to where the money is, America or Europe.

long term sustainability is just code for "lets abandon our way of life comforts in an effort to prevent a hyped up disaster theory/ies that will never actually happen."

So, if the deforestation of the globe and extinction of species continues at the present rate there will be no disaster?

The Mongols didn't want cars? :confused:

If they were invented, I'm pretty fuckin sure the Mongols would own all the cars at the time.

Nah, they'd all buy motorcycles and learn to control them with their legs, so they could shoot arrows at pedestrians as they zoomed past.

ireland has the highest standard of living. ireland also have only been at war with one country in its existance. not inclueding the nazi's cause that was only for an afternoon.

one can achieve greatnes without violence.

Let's face it: Unless a society has been beaten into submission through the use of "excessive" force and/or "exploitation", it will try to "conquer" other societies. That's how the United States went from a small, weak xenophobic group of slave-driven colonies into a world superpower with more than enough nuclear missiles to wipe out all life on earth and an army than can crush any other conventional, as in non-gruerilla and/or non-terrorist fully uniformed armies. It's how Brittian got the colonies she lost. That's why the Middle East wants the West dead. Survival of the fittest. It's an evolutionary feature that allowed us to survive the famine/prosperity times of yestermillenia. This "crush all those who oppose us" feature is present because those with it lived and those without it died.

Why are there hippies and liberals without this feature? Learned behavior.

Nah, they'd all buy motorcycles and learn to control them with their legs, so they could shoot arrows at pedestrians as they zoomed past.

Are you sure you're not getting the Mongols and the Parthians mixed up?

Are you sure you're not getting the Mongols and the Parthians mixed up?

I'm relatively certain that the Mongols had archers on horseback...

ireland has the highest standard of living. ireland also have only been at war with one country in its existance. not inclueding the nazi's cause that was only for an afternoon.

When were the Irish at war with the Nazis?

I'm relatively certain that the Mongols had archers on horseback...

Yes, but it was the Parthian's that were famous for ride-by shootings.

technically for a day, when nazi's tried to invade belfast. northern ireland is the only other country we are allowed to defend if they get attacked. now they are changing it to any eu country being invaded. whicj i think is a good thing. i'm pro-europe.

Yes, but it was the Parthian's that were famous for ride-by shootings.
From Wiki:

The Parthian shot was a tactic employed by ancient Persian horse archers. The horsemen would feign retreat at full gallop, then suddenly turn their bodies around and fire arrows at the pursuing enemy.

This tactic was successfully used by the Parthians and other Iranian civilizations utilizing cavalry extensively to disrupt, harass, maim, and kill enemy forces, especially infantry.

A notable battle where this tactic was employed was the Battle of Carrhae.

You wound, like Parthians, while you fly, And kill with a retreating eye. Samuel Butler, A Heroical Epistle of Hudibras to His Lady (1678).[1]
The modern term "parting shot" is probably a bastardization of "Parthian shot", which itself was used up to the 20th century to describe a barbed insult or bon mot given as the speaker departed:

With which Parthian shot he walked away, leaving the two rivals open-mouthed behind him. Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study in Scarlet (1886).

technically for a day, when nazi's tried to invade belfast. northern ireland is the only other country we are allowed to defend if they get attacked. now they are changing it to any eu country being invaded. whicj i think is a good thing. i'm pro-europe.


Ur... the Nazi's never tried to invade Belfast. Check your facts. They bombed us, certainly, but they never put Plan Kathleen into operation. The Irish response to the bombing was not one of war, just the sending of the fire engines to the North - and this in no way means that Ireland was at war.

From Wiki:

I think we can safely assume that the learned posters on NS General know what a Parthian shot was without recourse to Wikipedia.

I think we can safely assume that the learned posters on NS General know what a Parthian shot was without recourse to Wikipedia.
Just trying to add a little extra information to the discussion. :rolleyes:

my termonology may be incorretc, but at least involved in ww2 to some degree. they did send planes. crap ones.
invade was wrong word to use, my typing is bad. wrist soar.

my termonology may be incorretc, but at least involved in ww2 to some degree. they did send planes. crap ones.

Are you now claiming that the Irish sent warplanes to the North?

The Mongols didn't want cars? :confused:

If they were invented, I'm pretty fuckin sure the Mongols would own all the cars at the time.
Road Warrior: 1000 AD, the Mongol Invasion

Genghis Khan would SO own a Volkswagon Camper.

Road Warrior: 1000 AD, the Mongol Invasion

Genghis Khan would SO own a Volkswagon Camper.

They're weren't exactly big on chariots or carts, were they? The advantage of the horse was that it was very good on the trackless plains and steppes, unlike your automobile.

They're weren't exactly big on chariots or carts, were they? The advantage of the horse was that it was very good on the trackless plains and steppes, unlike your automobile.
SILENCE!
Or Genghis will add your head to the others dangling from his hood ornament.

SILENCE!
Or Genghis will add your head to the others dangling from his hood ornament.


The Surena will feed your guts to the buzzards for that...

SILENCE!
Or Genghis will add your head to the others dangling from his hood ornament.
I wasn't going to but ... do we now consider "what would Genghis drive"? I see him as a Hummer kind of guy.

Do you care that the West the East the North and the South all at times do or have done bad things ?


What are you doing studying for the chicom propaganda finals ?


How is Tibet doing lately ?

Do you care that the West the East the North and the South all at times do or have done bad things ?


What are you doing studying for the chicom propaganda finals ?


How is Tibet doing lately ?
Tibet is doing great! They've got a new railroad that's facilitating the immigration of many new Han Chinese citizens into Tibet. The new residents will bring greater prosperity and opportunity with them.

Of course you can. You're just saying that the West isn't as good as Rome was. I'm telling you that it's better.

If you use technological advances to determine social and economic comparisons, then your whole argument falls flat on its face. Why not say things like boiled water is more sterile than plain water, or the sun is hotter than a campfire.

Technological comparisons between various eras to determine which one has better technology, especially when there are at least a half dozen leaps in disciplines between them is as pointless as saying water's wet.

It's like the kind of person who says that Americans are more generous than the rest of the world because 500,000 people out of 50,000,000 donated $1 while a country with a population of 50,000 had them all donating 5$.

The two do NOT add up.

If you want to make comparisons between the two in quality of life providing, you HAVE to strip out technological differences. You add that in, it corrupts the calculation.

Tibet is doing great! They've got a new railroad that's facilitating the immigration of many new Han Chinese citizens into Tibet. The new residents will bring greater prosperity and opportunity with them.


You forgot to mention Diversity, Tolerance and more multiculturalism!

If you show weakness then it won't be long before someone else takes your place at the top of the food chain.

Which translates at the logical extreme, that Nazi Germany had it right. Crush your neighbors, kill your "undesirables".

Tibet is doing great! They've got a new railroad that's facilitating the immigration of many new Han Chinese citizens into Tibet. The new residents will bring greater prosperity and opportunity with them.


Wow !!! You get an A plus ! Thats wonderfull comerade ! No more reeducation for you ....you get to be a commisar !:D

Yes, but it was the Parthian's that were famous for ride-by shootings.

*shrug* Sure. The Parthians can have motorcycles too. It's just that the Mongols were the group being discussed at the time.

There is no doubt western culture/civilization is the powerful and rich and enjoy the highest quality of life the world has ever seen and is the single greatest achievement of mankind.

By who's measure?

what Im getting at is do you care that the west as done such things or are you happy that you are one of the lucky ones and leave it at that. Many might claim to care, but chances are when it comes down to it people dont care. So, do you care?

I think it is unfair.

Every country does "bad things." Why single out the West on that? Unless people are jealous of the wealth the West has...

Every country does "bad things." Why single out the West on that? Unless people are jealous of the wealth the West has...

Because many ignore the things the West has done with the justification of the "White Man's Burden."

Because many ignore the things the West has done with the justification of the "White Man's Burden."

Like I said all nations have done things that were wrong. Recently the West has had the military power to force others to do what they wanted. But other parts of the world have done the same in the past. It is simply human nature. I'm certainly aware of enough history to know of the things the West has done. But I'm not going to be one of those self hating whiny Westerners feeling guilty for having wealth and opportunity. That is just stupid.

Western Civilization is the greatest civilization the world has ever known. Period.

The Western culture is the best, plain and simple. If it wern't the best then people from around the world wouldn't be immigrating to Western nations by the millions each year and wouldn't be seeking permanent citizenship in those nations. We're the most advanced, most tolerant, and wealthiest culture this planet has ever seen and that will not change until someone else can beat our way of life.

Tibet is doing great! They've got a new railroad that's facilitating the immigration of many new Han Chinese citizens into Tibet. The new residents will bring greater prosperity and opportunity with them.
Not to mention that the Chinese are much better rulers than that oppressive Llama class.

The Western culture is the best, plain and simple.

Most ruthlessly exploitive would be the correct description. American policies throughout history have been considerably oppressive to other countries in order to best steal their resources.


If it wern't the best then people from around the world wouldn't be immigrating to Western nations by the millions each year and wouldn't be seeking permanent citizenship in those nations.

The majority of these immigrants happen to be people seeking greater opportunities to export cash back to their people. Many of them also happen to be classified by 'undesirables' by the more crusty part of the population.

To put it simply, they come to get your cash and luxuries. A permanent citizenship makes it easier.


We're the most advanced,

Debatable. From a technological standpoint for the average citizen, the Norwegians are lightyears ahead of the US.


most tolerant,

Kansas, Texas and a few other states would disagree with you. Tolerance is much better in certain European states.


and wealthiest culture.

Incorrect. The disparity of wealth between the rich and poor is incredibly high for a first world nation, not to mention that starvation in this supposedly first world country is a very real thing. Something many Americans willingly blind themselves to.

The fact that you believe all of what you say only tells me that you are all too willing to sweep the dirt under your notice, fooled into believing the propoganda of "America the shining beacon"

Much like those who live in Pyongyang can be fooled into believing that North Korea is "the shining beacon of prosperity"

There is no doubt western culture/civilization is the powerful and rich and enjoy the highest quality of life the world has ever seen and is the single greatest achievement of mankind.

Now the question is how did the west achieve such greatness. Largely it is due to what some might call "immoral" acts. Things like exploiting weaker countries and people, carrying out secret military operations around the world, proping up governments or economic deals at the expense of others benefiting their people.

what Im getting at is do you care that the west as done such things or are you happy that you are one of the lucky ones and leave it at that. Many might claim to care, but chances are when it comes down to it people dont care. So, do you care?
No, it pretty much started around the time of the Roman Empire, and continued through Byzantium and then through the Medieval period, into the Middle Ages, the search for knowledge and the ability to exploit ones resources helped Western Civilisation.

Heck, thank the Catholic Church.

No, it pretty much started around the time of the Roman Empire, and continued through Byzantium and then through the Medieval period, into the Middle Ages, the search for knowledge and the ability to exploit ones resources helped Western Civilisation.

Heck, thank the Catholic Church.
I wasnt talking about what started the greatness of the west, I was talking about what has been done in modern times to keep the west where it is, at the top.