NationStates Jolt Archive

I just don't understand. I mean, despite some issues with public education, Americans are by en large fairly knowledgable about the basic facts of the world.

I think DK made a pretty good point (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11478140&postcount=19) (:eek:) in my "Why is Indonesia going nuts?" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=494383) thread about the reasons that fundamentalist Islam is gaining so much popularity in many places.

Is the same happening in the States?

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,430094,00.html
Stephen Baldwin and America's Culture War

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,676208,00.jpg

In January 2006, almost four and a half years after the attack on the World Trade Center, the planning board of the village of Nyack, New York, issued a permit for a new sex shop on Route 59, a busy access road. The shop was to be housed in a former car dealership on the outskirts of town and feature eight video booths for porn flicks. The five members of Nyack's planning board saw no connection between the sex shop and Sept. 11.

The planning board's decision was unanimous and seemed to be the result of careful preparation. The members of the board, which holds a monthly public meeting in Nyack's white-painted town hall building, spent a year discussing the shop. They examined the legal situation, specifically a 1992 local law detailing Nyack's zoning requirements for sex shops and strip clubs. They discussed sewage, lighting, window coverings and parking lot lights. They issued specifications for the width of the sidewalk and the dimensions of the eight video booths, for warning signs, minimum age restrictions and hours of operation. They evaluated construction plans, models and the planned porn shop's inventory, consulting lawyers, architects and other experts in the process.

In one public meeting, 37 Nyack residents -- 34 named and three anonymous -- commented on the sex shop being applied for. The minutes of the board's meetings, filed in the village archives, include the full text of each of these statements. In the minutes, citizen Elizabeth Chapman voices her concern over so-called "glory holes" in the walls of the video booths, citizen Larry Jameson points out the potential hazards of turning left into the sex shop's parking lot, and citizen Irving Feiner says he is against porn shops but in favor of their right to free speech. An unnamed older man enlightens the group over the benefits of masturbation.

[...]

Baldwin returns, his suitcase in tow. He says he has to leave right away. He stands in the doorway with his luggage. His agent looks at him, and Baldwin summarizes his message in an abrupt interview with himself.

"Should we be in Iraq? I don't know. Should American troops be dying over there? No, of course not. Do I believe that God wants us to be in Iraq? Don't know. Do I believe God is in control? Oh, yeah. Do I believe Sept. 11 changed our world? Yes. Do I believe that there is a spiritual element behind these changes? Yes. Do I believe that we are nearing the Bible's Book of Revelations? Yes, absolutely."

He rolls his suitcase to the elevator, takes it down to the street level and disappears into the black rain of Madison Avenue -- just as in the Book of Revelations.

Perhaps it was Baldwin's eyes, or his decisiveness. Or maybe it just happened to be the right time. Whatever it was that prompted them, the 6,000 residents of the small East Coast town of Nyack suddenly understood that what was at stake out on Route 59 was more than just a porn shop. In their minds, Sept. 11 and the store with the blackened windows became one. In the privacy of their living rooms, concerned Nyack residents began mentioning the supposed glory holes in adult video booths and the Patriot Act in the same breath. In their minds, it was all related -- God, war, the world's moral decline and the US Constitution. Nyack became a battleground for the two main camps in American society -- the religious conservatives and the liberals. It was those who believed morals were in danger against those who saw a looming threat to basic freedom, and their fight revolved around a small shop on an outlying commercial strip.

...

The porn shop opened a month later -- for four days. That was when the shop's owners received the New York Supreme Court's ruling that their business license had been revoked. The judge cited a few formal errors and something she called protecting the emotional environment. She added that the shop's owners would have to resubmit their application to the Nyack planning board.

"This is a joke," says the planning board's attorney, Walter Sevastian. "There isn't a single justification here. The judge, who wants to be reelected, just got scared. Stephen Baldwin, the press, TV. Protecting the emotional environment. That's the biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever heard. There's our oh-so-liberal Nyack for you. We spent an entire year ironing out the plans, and then this newbie Baldwin shows up, talks about God and everyone capitulates. We have laws and we abide by those laws, but this is nothing but a ruling on moral grounds."

...

I mean, that is insane. I'm sorry, but I just cannot understand.

So why do these things happen? Why is the US falling into this abyss of eternal fighting of liberals vs conservatives? Why does religion enter into it ALL THE TIME?

And how is this all going to end?

So why do these things happen? Why is the US falling into this abyss of eternal fighting of liberals vs conservatives? Why does religion enter into it ALL THE TIME?

And how is this all going to end?
Beats the hell out of me. I honestly think that the problem lies in our culture...Americans just arnt the smart people we used to be. We are, generally speaking, dumb and apathetic, and that is a recipe for internal strife and international disaster.

It's not particularly strong here; Cleveland just opened one of the biggest gay bathhouses in the world and virtually no one put up a serious fight against it. Aside from the economic opportunities and investment in the community that could come from having the establishment, most people simply didn't care about the presence of the baths in their neighborhood.

At least in this area, pragmatism, acceptance or tolerance win out over personal religious beliefs.

America is surely the West's equivalent of fundamentalist Iran.

America is surely the West's equivalent of fundamentalist Iran.
:rolleyes:

Sure we got some religious nuts, but they don't run the gov. Everything Bush does is mainly tending to his base.

America is pretty tolerant.

I mean Ozzie Guillen correctly called Jay "MOron" Mariotti a "Fucking fag." (He meant it in the Venezuelan meaning of the word which means, wimp, not homosexual.)

Everyone got on him for it. What I find funny is that everyone said he should've used a different word. No one said anything about the fact he insulted Jay Moronotti. I gues it shows what his fellow sports journalists feel about him.

America is surely the West's equivalent of fundamentalist Iran.
Women are not stoned for adultery in the US.

I think you'll find the porn shop thing more to do with property values and the 'booming' real estate market in Rockland county than religious fundamentalism. So I wouldn't read to much into it.


As to the rest, I don't know.

Much is wrong with the world as it is... all because of the rich people who got too greedy... the Upper cause the world's travesty and the Middle continue it... the Lower are the true... let THEM become the upper... then you will see... they would correct it all.

Unless THEY get consumed by the monster of greed... then elect the selfless... if that fails, that shows that humanity is a greed-based herd of apes, unintelligent where it REALLY matters...

Or maybe all of this is the product of there only being 1 sentient race on Earth... then that is just our need of warring...

Humanity needs something to fight. That is just our instinct.

Women are not stoned for adultery in the US.
Sorry, more like the US is the west's equivalent of increasingly-fundamentalist Indonesia.

Why do American Christian conservatives oppose Muslim fundies so strongly? They probably agree on most issues.

Why do American Christian conservatives oppose Muslim fundies so strongly? They probably agree on most issues.

Why did the Bolsheviks kill the menshaviks? It's like highlander. There can be only one.

Women are not stoned for adultery in the US.
Yet.

Sorry, more like the US is the west's equivalent of increasingly-fundamentalist Indonesia.

Why do American Christian conservatives oppose Muslim fundies so strongly? They probably agree on most issues.

Pretty true, God Controls everything, Infidels don't deserve anything, our religion is right so we must spread it everywhere, even through Violience.

Yet.


Please. Where would Jerry Springer get his content?

Yet.



Pretty true, God Controls everything, Infidels don't deserve anything, our religion is right so we must spread it everywhere, even through Violience.




You need to study Islam, because you obviously are ignorant of its tenents. Islam is not about violence at all. Those assholes in the Mid-East have a bastardized view of Islam.

While formally secular, Protestant, Catholic and Jewish values have always been very strong components of US culture. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and the real contrast lies in the qualities of specific religions, rather than in its presence or absence.

There has never existed any culture devoid of religion, and one could very easily prove that Socialism is the new religion of Europe, and that the ethicity it promotes is destroying its capacity to grow and create.

There has never existed any culture devoid of religion, and one could very easily prove that Socialism is the new religion of Europe, and that the ethicity it promotes is destroying its capacity to grow and create.

China was confucian for a while. That's not really religious in the western sense.

Am I missing something? What is the connection between the sex shop and an actor who's done nothing significant lately in the OP?

There's an adult video shop less than 10 minutes from my house. All the hullabaloo about how it was going to destroy the neighborhood when it opened has proven to be bull.

"It will bring in a bad element"

I mean really, do you think people are going to come from other towns to visit it? NO. The people who keep it in business are my neighbors, for pete's sake. If they didn't, it would have closed 11 years ago. ;)

China was confucian for a while. That's not really religious in the western sense.

Confucianism is what we call a "this-worldly" religion, and Chinese culture cannot be understood at all without considering its influence. There is no area in Chinese life that has not been decisively molded by Confucian values.

I tend to think that it's not christian fundamentalism that threatens America the most, although I am highly wary of it and dislike it immensely, but a culture of hate, which is characteristic of the Left and many secularists. It's this sort of attitude that "we are to blame" for the world's ills, and simply a lack of resolve to defend liberal democracy from its enemies, whether they are in the form of multiculturalism, or outright terrorism.

Sorry, more like the US is the west's equivalent of increasingly-fundamentalist Indonesia.
Don't be ridiculous, it's still nowhere near. You don't find schoolkids of religious minorities abducted and murdered in America. People are still free to worship how they like. Your comparisons are pathetic.

America is pretty tolerant.
Some pretty influential elements certainly aren't.

I think you'll find the porn shop thing more to do with property values and the 'booming' real estate market in Rockland county than religious fundamentalism. So I wouldn't read to much into it.
Did you read the article?

The local government and institutions approved it. Then Baldwin and other nuts started ranting on about it, and in the end a judge revoked the shop's license for reasons of "emotional environment".

I don't think property prices made much of an impact here.

There has never existed any culture devoid of religion, and one could very easily prove that Socialism is the new religion of Europe, and that the ethicity it promotes is destroying its capacity to grow and create.
There are so many things wrong with this...I'll list the three main things:

a) Socialism is not a religion.
b) Europe is not socialist.
c) Europe's capacity to grow and create is just fine. Macroeconomically there are issues in a few European countries (for somewhat different reasons), but not only do their economies grow, but German and French companies are asking for patents at a fairly ridiculous rate.

a) Socialism is not a religion.
b) Europe is not socialist.
c) Europe's capacity to grow and create is just fine. Macroeconomically there are issues in a few European countries (for somewhat different reasons), but not only do their economies grow, but German and French companies are asking for patents at a fairly ridiculous rate.

Economists have been telling Europe they need to do certain things if they ever expect to grow and generate employment and wealth again, yet they refuse to heed the counsel of reason and science, clinging to Socialism in the face of ever-worsening data.

That kind of blind and self-inflicting fanaticism is the hallmark of the worst forms of religion.

Did you read the article?

The local government and institutions approved it. Then Baldwin and other nuts started ranting on about it, and in the end a judge revoked the shop's license for reasons of "emotional environment".

I don't think property prices made much of an impact here.


Yeah. I read the article, and I think you underestimate how thoroughly uninvolved in local issues most people in rockland county are. Probably most residents had no idea that the sex shop was opening until after it was approved. Also, property prices have posted mamoth gains there in the past few years and people are eager to defend them.

Put the two together, and I imagine most of the protestors had more interest in the value of their house than anything else.

I'd hardly describe rockland county as a hotbed of fundamenalism, after all. (Lot of NYPD and NYFD though). I only say this as someone who lives thirty minutes away from there and followed this in the local news however.

Economists have been telling Europe they need to do certain things if they ever expect to grow and generate employment and wealth again, yet they refuse to heed the counsel of reason and science, clinging to Socialism in the face of ever-worsening data.
Care to give me an example, then? Nothing of the stuff you are saying is true. Not one sentence of it.

Which country? What problem exactly? Which economist? Which economist disagreed? And where is the socialism? Do you know what socialism is?

Put the two together, and I imagine most of the protestors had more interest in the value of their house than anything else.
Well, I suppose maybe we're both right a little bit.

Either way, my point was more that this sort of story is symptomatic of modern America. This eternal moralistic bitching, people assuming that their religious rules and laws hold true for other people, not just themselves, the logical conclusion being religion and politics being so mixed up. Creationism, Schiavo, Abortion, Gay Rights...those are the big items, but at the same time you keep hearing stories about these little things in which exactly the same moralistic bullshit is being heard. And it's always these "born-again" Christians.

And the worst thing is - instead of just being dismissed as the nutcases these people are, they keep getting their way. Little by little.

Something is wrong with that. The US was supposed to be a country of freedom, a liberal sort of place where people could escape persecution. Now it is, without much doubt, among the most socially oppressive places in the Western world, at least in parts. Europe has taken the sort of turn away from the Fifties and that sort of moralistic culture, often inspired by the US in the Sixties and Seventies...and on the other side, the US is reverting back. Why?

Something is wrong with that. The US was supposed to be a country of freedom, a liberal sort of place where people could escape persecution. Now it is, without much doubt, among the most socially oppressive places in the Western world, at least in parts. Europe has taken the sort of turn away from the Fifties and that sort of moralistic culture, often inspired by the US in the Sixties and Seventies...and on the other side, the US is reverting back. Why?
Used to be? You are a foreigner, our history is full of fear of foreign ideology and the protection of religious ideals, before we were afraid of catholicism and saw it as an evil influence, now we see that evil in the liberality today. We were historically a country of petty racists and such with a smattering of some ideals of the enlightenment, not some beacon of truth and understanding that called all men as part of its brotherhood. The US is reverting back because of the fact that the 60s and 70s weren't solid gains given the fact that today calling someone a hippy can be an insult. They just made the right sort of mad and this is the pendulum swinging back and a bit too far at that as well. Gains are still being made and don't be mistaken about that, however, our history is full of religion and revivals and as such a strong fundamentalism is still in our heritage. We ARE still making progress as the border of what is acceptable is being pushed back but we are doing it at a slow pace because of the conservatism of fundamentalists.

Care to give me an example, then? Nothing of the stuff you are saying is true. Not one sentence of it.

Which country? What problem exactly? Which economist? Which economist disagreed? And where is the socialism? Do you know what socialism is?

How about the CAP? There are extremely few economists that support it. Anyone with a beginner's microeconomics course under his belt knows it is a waste of money for Europe, and a plague for the developing world. Yet the French public and government will defend it at any cost.

How about liberalizing the job market? It is extremely well established that draconian regulation is the decisive factor in the colossal structural unemployment suffered in France, Germany and Italy. Yet at the first sign of reform, the populace will pour out to the streets like Muslims protesting cartoons of their prophets.

Believe me, there is an overwhelming consensus among scientists that Europe's economy is a basket case, yet that continent will fanatically resist any chance that is perceived to go against the creed of Socialism.

Used to be? You are a foreigner, our history is full of fear of foreign ideology and the protection of religious ideals, before we were afraid of catholicism and saw it as an evil influence, now we see that evil in the liberality today. We were historically a country of petty racists and such with a smattering of some ideals of the enlightenment, not some beacon of truth and understanding that called all men as part of its brotherhood. The US is reverting back because of the fact that the 60s and 70s weren't solid gains. They just made the right sort of mad and this is the pendulum swinging back and a bit too far at that as well. Gains are still being made and don't be mistaken about that, however, our history is full of religion and revivals and as such a strong fundamentalism is still in our heritage. We ARE still making progress as the border of what is acceptable is being pushed back but we are doing it at a slow pace because of the conservatism of fundamentalists.

You're right. And that's why the founding fathers wrote our Constitution the way they did. They were anything but extremists (well, most of them :p).

Used to be? You are a foreigner, our history is full of fear of foreign ideology and the protection of religious ideals, before we were afraid of catholicism and saw it as an evil influence, now we see that evil in the liberality today.
But how come? I mean, Europe has certainly had its share of phobias, of wars, of moralistic arseholes over the years...but today (and even though religion is still important to many Europeans) socially the value of other people's opinions and ideals is certainly much more respected.
And that wasn't so much because of the wars as it was a movement during the sixties and seventies. Fairly similar to what was happening in the States, but as you said, it was temporary there but much more durable and fundamental in Europe. How come?

We were historically a country of petty racists and such with a smattering of some ideals of the enlightenment, not some beacon of truth and understanding that called all men as part of its brotherhood.
Hmm, maybe I'm truer to the ideals of your founding fathers than you guys ever were. :p

Gains are still being made and don't be mistaken about that, however, we were founded by religious extremists and as such it is in our cultural heritage, the pilgrams were just a bunch of people who thought that Europe was too evil and corrupt to remain in and that was why they left, some groups may have been persecuted but a good amount just wanted their own little place where they could form their own theocracy.
Sure - but how important are the pilgrims and their beliefs and opinions to modern America? I mean, most modern Americans aren't related to them, they came in later.
And I'm pretty sure it's not something in the water, so what is it?

How about the CAP? There are extremely few economists that support it. Anyone with a beginner's microeconomics course under her belt knows it is a waste of money for Europe, and a plague for the developing world. Yet the French public and government will defend it at any cost.

How about liberalizing the job market? It is extremely well established that draconian regulation is the decisive factor in the colossal structural unemployment suffered in France, Germany and Italy. Yet at the first sign of reform, the populace will pour out to the streets like Muslims protesting cartoons of their prophets.

Believe me, there is an overwhelming consensus among scientists that Europe's economy is a basket case, yet that continent will fanatically resist any chance that is perceived to go against the creed of Socialism.

Want us to see you as an intelligent, well-read person? Okay, then stop using the term "Socialism" without know what the fuck it means. Europe is very far from being Socialist.

You're right. And that's why the founding fathers wrote our Constitution the way they did. They were anything but extremists (well, most of them :p).
Yep, our founding fathers were quite smart, gifted and such. However, our people were just religious fanatics and many people look at the founding fathers and forget about the people who were actually living in the country when it comes to our history and all of the crap that we hated. I mean, really, it took us until the 60s and 70s to start realizing it was wrong to hate black people. That is sort of F-ed up! My old high school used to be the Rebels(named after the confederates) until the 80s.

Confucianism is what we call a "this-worldly" religion, and Chinese culture cannot be understood at all without considering its influence. There is no area in Chinese life that has not been decisively molded by Confucian values.
This worldly? I think you're attempting to streach a philosophy to something it never was.

Yep, our founding fathers were quite smart, gifted and such. However, our people were just religious fanatics and many people look at the founding fathers and forget about the people who were actually living in the country when it comes to our history and all of the crap that we hated. I mean, really, it took us until the 60s and 70s to start realizing it was wrong to hate black people. That is sort of F-ed up! My old high school used to be the Rebels(named after the confederates) until the 80s.

Well, keep in mind that most of the assholes lived in the South. A lot of the people who fought in the Revolution shared ideals with the founding fathers. It's just that most of these people were from New England (let us not forget New York, even though that's a smidge south of the area known as New England).

George Washington said that he very much disliked the soldiers from New England. Apparently, they didn't like others telling them what they should and shouldn't do. He liked troops from the South more, because, well, they were tools. :p

But how come? I mean, Europe has certainly had its share of phobias, of wars, of moralistic arseholes over the years...but today (and even though religion is still important to many Europeans) socially the value of other people's opinions and ideals is certainly much more respected.
And that wasn't so much because of the wars as it was a movement during the sixties and seventies. Fairly similar to what was happening in the States, but as you said, it was temporary there but much more durable and fundamental in Europe. How come?
We've only been hanging around for 230+ years now. You guys did the kill them all bit for centuries, give us time. ;)

Sure - but how important are the pilgrims and their beliefs and opinions to modern America? I mean, most modern Americans aren't related to them, they came in later.
And I'm pretty sure it's not something in the water, so what is it?
Simple, America swings like a bloody penglum all the time. If you look at US history, it's always swinging between one extream and the other. The revolution was a time of great liberalism, then came the great revival, and away we went.

The 20's were loose, the 40's and 50's conservative, the 60's and 70's... whoa boy.

In other words, we're due a swing back sooner or later. We'll reach middle ground then keep going left till the country gets tired, then swing right.

George Washington said that he very much disliked the soldiers from New England. Apparently, they didn't like others telling them what they should and shouldn't do. He liked troops from the South more, because, well, they were tools. :p
Maybe had something to do with him being a Southerner, himself?

We've only been hanging around for 230+ years now. You guys did the kill them all bit for centuries, give us time. ;)


Simple, America swings like a bloody penglum all the time. If you look at US history, it's always swinging between one extream and the other. The revolution was a time of great liberalism, then came the great revival, and away we went.

The 20's were loose, the 40's and 50's conservative, the 60's and 70's... whoa boy.

In other words, we're due a swing back sooner or later. We'll reach middle ground then keep going left till the country gets tired, then swing right.

That's the sad thing. The Constitution needs to be streamlined and updated. Get rid of all the bullshit oppressive laws against civil rights already. And get the fucking bible out of fucking Congress.

Maybe had something to do with him being a Southerner, himself?

That goes without saying, really. Both are true.

Look on the bright side. It's a lot better now than durring the Federalist and Anti-Federalist days. It'll get better. Or worse. I'm going to go with beter though.

Well, I suppose maybe we're both right a little bit.

Either way, my point was more that this sort of story is symptomatic of modern America. This eternal moralistic bitching, people assuming that their religious rules and laws hold true for other people, not just themselves, the logical conclusion being religion and politics being so mixed up. Creationism, Schiavo, Abortion, Gay Rights...those are the big items, but at the same time you keep hearing stories about these little things in which exactly the same moralistic bullshit is being heard. And it's always these "born-again" Christians.

And the worst thing is - instead of just being dismissed as the nutcases these people are, they keep getting their way. Little by little.

Something is wrong with that. The US was supposed to be a country of freedom, a liberal sort of place where people could escape persecution. Now it is, without much doubt, among the most socially oppressive places in the Western world, at least in parts. Europe has taken the sort of turn away from the Fifties and that sort of moralistic culture, often inspired by the US in the Sixties and Seventies...and on the other side, the US is reverting back. Why?

There are two things here:

1. The US is not a cultural monolith. Parts of it are, and always have been, tremedously oppressive culturally and social. It is, after all, the nation that gave the world the scarlet letter and salem witch burnings. On the other hand, parts of it have always been highly progressive. Compare Kansas to Massachusetts.

Further, the federal system, I think, tends to magnify the geographic polarization. There is a movement for evangelical christians go live in south carolina so they can control the legislature and create their own little "christian state". On the other hand, people in the more conservative who have a more liberal outlook tend to move to places like New York. Especially if they are gay, in an interacial relationship or atheists.

So since everybody has been hiving together with like minds for the past forty years or so, the extreme places have gotten pretty extreme and really stand out.

2. The christian right is very good at co-opting issues, in order to make itself more visable than it otherwise would be. Case in point the rockland sex shop. Like I said, I am fairly sure that most of the people in Rockland are not christian fundamentalists, it is after all Hillary Clinton country, but they are prepared to go along with the Stephen Baldwins of this world because it suits their own aims. (In fact, since West Nyack is where the east coast's largest sex shop has operated - and still does - for the past ten years about, I am convinced of this.) So they gain far more media attention than they should.

Anway, christian nuttiness in the US is nothing new. You should watch Inherit the wind.

Those loons do scare me however. I recently watched a richard dawkins video "The Root of all evil" and it had some scary stuff on it. And I get angry that at the federal level the blue states representatives pay lip service to this crap. (Not always but quite often). Also, I get angry that people who lean towards a more neo-liberal economic view feel that they have to hitch their wagon to these fools in order to get their viewpoint heard. It's a potentially dangerous bargain.

Want us to see you as an intelligent, well-read person? Okay, then stop using the term "Socialism" without know what the fuck it means. Europe is very far from being Socialist.

Is that a rhetorical question? I know perfectly well what socialism entails, but precisely defining it is a self-defeating exercise. What is Christianity? The Bible? What interpretation of it? Which are the true Christians? The puritan Protestants, eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholics? Can they all be Christian, despite defining themselves in opposition to each other?

One unequivocal sing of socialism though is the bitter animosity it harbors against the US.

But how come? I mean, Europe has certainly had its share of phobias, of wars, of moralistic arseholes over the years...but today (and even though religion is still important to many Europeans) socially the value of other people's opinions and ideals is certainly much more respected.
And that wasn't so much because of the wars as it was a movement during the sixties and seventies. Fairly similar to what was happening in the States, but as you said, it was temporary there but much more durable and fundamental in Europe. How come? Honestly, I don't really know. We might have had a stronger right wing at that time as Europe has always had more social reforms than we have. Really, most of my knowledge on this is from the US, so I have difficulty knowing about European changes. However, today hippies are somewhat vilified and I don't know how they were thought of in Europe. You might be overestimating the power of our hippy movement, I really don't know. It could be an effect of the US's Cold War which we probably took more seriously here than in Europe.


Hmm, maybe I'm truer to the ideals of your founding fathers than you guys ever were. :p Probably.


Sure - but how important are the pilgrims and their beliefs and opinions to modern America? I mean, most modern Americans aren't related to them, they came in later.
And I'm pretty sure it's not something in the water, so what is it?
Many are related to them, and many have absorbed the culture of religious fundamentalism as it has been quite historically prevalent in the US. Sure it isn't just the same religion but it is all protestantism and many preachers went out and recruited people during the 1800s. I just think that our religious beliefs have not died down very much compared to other nations. We were founded on separation of Church and State but we have never really followed it and Christianity was still considered an important part of being an American in the 1950s as politicians believed that we were the just Christian nation fighting against an evil empire.

This worldly? I think you're attempting to streach a philosophy to something it never was.

Greek "religion" seldom concerned itself with matters of the afterlife. Is it a stretch as well to call it "religion"?

One could define religion as that which gives men a place in this world. And that definition begins to suggest its extreme importance in the character of societies.

Is that a rhetorical question? I know perfectly well what socialism entails, but precisely defining it is a self-defeating exercise. What is Christianity? The Bible? What interpretation of it? Which are the true Christians? The puritan Protestants, eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholics? Can they all be Christian, despite defining themselves in opposition to each other?

One unequivocal sing of socialism though is the bitter animosity it harbors against the US.

1: You ask if a question is rhetorical, then proceed to follow it with just that? NS General really needs another one of you guys... :rolleyes:

2: Or, rather, the bitter animosity the U.S. harbors towards Socialism.

One unequivocal sing of socialism though is the bitter animosity it harbors against the US.

Max Shachtman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Shachtman)
Social Democrats USA (http://www.socialdemocrats.org/)

Yet the French public and government will defend it at any cost.
Aha! You are talking about France here. France =/= Europe. That place is a special case - unlike any other country in Europe there is no consensus there at all that things must change. It is the only place in Europe in which ideology is the issue, not politics.
But we'll see what Sarkozy does.

And besides, ultimately the CAP has its American equivalent. Are you telling me that America is a socialist haven?

How about liberalizing the job market? It is extremely well established that draconian regulation is the decisive factor in the colossal structural unemployment suffered in France, Germany and Italy. Yet at the first sign of reform, the populace will pour out to the streets like Muslims protesting cartoons of their prophets.
We've had France, I don't know heaps about Italy. But Italy's always been a basket case, about as stable as the Congo.

A few facts about Germany though: The reforms were pushed through. They have yet to see proper results...because the reason people aren't being hired isn't their costs (or at least isn't anymore), but the uncertainty caused by low domestic demand by consumers. It's nothing a government or an economist can do anything about, but wait.

Meanwhile, Germany breaks records all the time as the world's largest exporter.

Also, the protests did not meet with widespread appeal, at least in the West. The Eastern part (if you ask me) is indeed a basket case, and doesn't deserve one cent from the West. The "Monday demonstrations" were never quite as big as was hoped, and other than hurt Schröder's government in the media, they achieved nothing.

The reason reforms are so difficult to implement in Germany lies partly in its political system and partly in the all-pervasive German pessimism. The former is is primarily about Federalism, which means that all parties are almost always in an election campaign somewhere, which makes policies that don't immediately pay off difficult to implement - see Schröder's government.
The latter is not only part of the reason for weak domestic demand, but it also causes every lobby group to hold on for dear life for every cent they do get from the government. Trying to build a compromise becomes virtually impossible if no party is prepared to move an inch.

My point, I suppose, is first and foremost that although it may sometimes look that way, there is no Eurosclerosis. There is no "European problem". The problems are individual ones, with different causes and ultimately different solutions.

Excessive government involvement and a huge public sector come to mind in France, inefficient policies and the problem with the East in Germany. Note that income redistribution isn't a factor in any of these places, since Scandinavia shows that it can work quite well without causing mass unemployment and lack of economic growth.

Oh, and by the way, France grew by 1.4%, Germany by 1% (projected to be more next year (http://www.cesifo-group.de/portal/page?_pageid=36,103115&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&item_link=kprog-inhalt-20060629.htm)) and the UK by 1.8%. It's not the world. Unemployment is the issue, not out-right growth.

Believe me, there is an overwhelming consensus among scientists that Europe's economy is a basket case, yet that continent will fanatically resist any chance that is perceived to go against the creed of Socialism.
Europe. So you of course mean Ireland, the Netherlands and the like.

I am pretty heavily involved with the economics community, since I study it at uni (in third year now). Firstly, there is no such thing as a consensus in economics ( ;) ), and secondly, actual economists (not political economists) are pragmatists. They're unlikely to offer the sort of blanket solution you're talking about.

And finally, I suggest you read up on what exactly Socialism is, and then find me a European country that actually fits the description. Quite aside from the question whether you can call a political or economic movement a "religion".

One unequivocal sing of socialism though is the bitter animosity it harbors against the US.
So anyone who hates the US is socialist?
:rolleyes:
Brilliant... just... brilliant.

Greek "religion" seldom concerned itself with matters of the afterlife. Is it a stretch as well to call it "religion"?

One could define religion as that which gives men a place in this world. And that definition begins to suggest its extreme importance in the character of societies.
Well, one COULD state that a religion has much to do with something supernatural, on Earth or in the afterlife. Considering Confucianism is a philosophy that has nothing to do with the supernatural... It's like saying that following Plato is being religious.

Nope, sorry.

So anyone who hates the US is socialist?
:rolleyes:
Brilliant... just... brilliant.

It's true. Ask Bernie Sanders.

So anyone who hates the US is socialist?
:rolleyes:
Brilliant... just... brilliant.

Eh.. that's not what he said. Not that I agree that socialists hate the U.S. necessarily, but saying that they do doesn't imply that anyone who does is a socialist.

Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism#Errors_in_syllogism

Sorry it's wikipedia, but I'm lazy. :p

Am I missing something? What is the connection between the sex shop and an actor who's done nothing significant lately in the OP?

There's an adult video shop less than 10 minutes from my house. All the hullabaloo about how it was going to destroy the neighborhood when it opened has proven to be bull.

"It will bring in a bad element"

I mean really, do you think people are going to come from other towns to visit it? NO. The people who keep it in business are my neighbors, for pete's sake. If they didn't, it would have closed 11 years ago. ;)
there was a sex store that opened up 8 blocks from where I live.

the residents nearby didn't like it, so they did the proper thing. they didn't go there.

the store closed up soon after, couldn't make the rent due to lack of customers.

there was a sex store that opened up 8 blocks from where I live.

the residents nearby didn't like it, so they did the proper thing. they didn't go there.

the store closed up soon after, couldn't make the rent due to lack of customers.

Fascists..