NationStates Jolt Archive

Just consider the new violence in the Middle East for a minute. Does anyone here think that such events could facilitate or speed up the possible creation of a Pan-Arab state in the Middle East, like a second Ottoman Empire? Does anyone think this is even possible or likely?

Thoughts and commentary are welcome.

No.

If they actually succeed at destroying Israel, they won't have their traditional boogeyman to hold up.

Then it will revert to Sunni vs. Shia, which they've already begun in Iraq.

They'll kill each other wholesale, and for a century (unless they nuke each other).

Got to agree with kimchi here, although it may be possible that two states develop, a shia one and a sunni one.

The United Arab Republic, a creation of Egypt and Syria, was intended to become a pan-Arab state. It failed.

Got to agree with kimchi here, although it may be possible that two states develop, a shia one and a sunni one.
Two states that would eternally fight each other.

Just consider the new violence in the Middle East for a minute. Does anyone here think that such events could facilitate or speed up the possible creation of a Pan-Arab state in the Middle East, like a second Ottoman Empire? Does anyone think this is even possible or likely?

Thoughts and commentary are welcome.
Interesting you equated pan-Arab with the Turkish Ottomans, but anyway ... I don't see it. As someone's said, it's been tried and failed. There are too many competing priorities in the individual Arabs nations to really make it work on a secular level.

Several things would not allow that:

Partriotism
Western and UN influence
Jews and Christians
Breaks in Islam

Also it would have already been created if they were all keen: say Syria, 'Palestine' (West Bank + Gaza) and Iran. But it has not. The Arab League is pretty down with most leaders - its like the whore of the block - they're all happy enough with that.

I shouldnt say that.

Two states that would eternally fight each other.

Very true, sadly.

Two states that would eternally fight each other.

I'm hoping for ultra-fragmentation, the kind that makes them fight each other rather than the West. It worked in Europe; Germany, for example, was kept in pieces for the better part of two millenia. Italy too.

Two states that would eternally fight each other.
perhaps, but i think there is less of a difference between suni and shia than there is between protestant and catholic so there is potential for reconcilliation if nationalism or patriotism (which aren't nearly as strong outside europe and north america, or at least take on a different form) are taken out of the equation. and there is more of a collective will towards a islamic superstate than there will ever be towards any kind of christian superstate. except perhaps in the us but they don't represent christianity to the rest of the world. that sort of idea went out of christianity with the end of the holy roman empire.

perhaps, but i think there is less of a difference between suni and shia than there is between protestant and catholic so there is potential for reconcilliation if nationalism or patriotism (which aren't nearly as strong outside europe and north america, or at least take on a different form) are taken out of the equation. and there is more of a collective will towards a islamic superstate than there will ever be towards any kind of christian superstate. except perhaps in the us but they don't represent christianity to the rest of the world. that sort of idea went out of christianity with the end of the holy roman empire.

If past and current history are good indicators, they'll be using smallpox on each other as soon as they can.

Two states that would eternally fight each other.

But hudreds of years ago, christians proably thought Catholics and Protestants would be fighting forever, and dont even mention the Jews to them...

Then it was them who made the Jewish state, after chasing them out of every European country, they stopped fighting each other eventually, I think if the Arab world got a group of fairly stable leaders (not much chance) they could unify slightly, but it would take so long though, bit like the EU.

Arab OPEC nations perhaps...

But hudreds of years ago, christians proably thought Catholics and Protestants would be fighting forever...
They still are in places.

I'm hoping for ultra-fragmentation, the kind that makes them fight each other rather than the West. It worked in Europe; Germany, for example, was kept in pieces for the better part of two millenia. Italy too.

italy kicked some serious s**t in its day though... until the Series of Dumbasses...

Is that starting in the US? OH NOES!:eek: lol

A Pan-Arab state could not occur without a very strong government behind it, neutral to the disputes within Islam and tolerant of other religions. Because of Western influences on the region, that is not going to happen.

italy kicked some serious s**t in its day though... until the Series of Dumbasses...

Is that starting in the US? OH NOES!:eek: lol

Italy =/= Rome

Does anyone here think that such events could facilitate or speed up the possible creation of a Pan-Arab state in the Middle East, like a second Ottoman Empire? Does anyone think this is even possible or likely?

Thoughts and commentary are welcome.

No way. The entrenched powers/clans ruling over the different Arab states would never agree to give up their power under any likely circumstance (even an invasion of Syria by Israel).

Unless Mehdi reappears :p and Iranians go crazy. Now that would unite the Arabs more than Isreal can hope to.:D

Ain't ever gonna happen.

Just consider the new violence in the Middle East for a minute. Does anyone here think that such events could facilitate or speed up the possible creation of a Pan-Arab state in the Middle East, like a second Ottoman Empire? Does anyone think this is even possible or likely?

Thoughts and commentary are welcome.

The Ottoman Empire was not a Pan-Arab state. Turks are no Arabs (as well as Iranians are no Arabs) and Arabs do not like Turks (because of the oppression by the Turks during the existence of the Ottoman Empire).
But other than that, a Pan-Arab state as it was planned in the time of the Arab uprising (cf. Lawrence of Arabia) would be just fine. But for now it would just be sufficient to join Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian, Jordanian, Saudi, and non-Arab Iranian forces to erase the evil zionist state from the map.

Make sure it doesn't happen.
Make VERY sure.

Make sure it doesn't happen.
Make VERY sure.
as more arabs being killed by other arabs, than by no-arab states, it won't happen before the massiah will come.

as more arabs being killed by other arabs, than by no-arab states, it won't happen before the massiah will come.


*plays with mapcase* better make very sure none the less.
What if the Massiah arrives at 1600 hours today?

*plays with mapcase* better make very sure none the less.
What if the Massiah arrives at 1600 hours today?
than it depend what you believe he will do, but I think the judaism talked about global peace, mass imigration of jewish people to israel, and establishment of the third temple in jerusalem, so it won't harm much if the arabs will had pan-arab state in that terms.

btw, I am secular so my use of "massiah is coming" is equal to "pig will fly and fish will speak english".

than it depend what you believe he will do, but I think the judaism talked about global peace, mass imigration of jewish people to israel, and establishment of the third temple in jerusalem, so it won't harm much if the arabs will had pan-arab state in that terms.

btw, I am secular so my use of "massiah is coming" is equal to "pig will fly and fish will speak english".


I know, I know about the latter part. Probably a devout ha'aretz reader and all. :D

But meanwhile, I don't believe in taking unneccessary chances with that lot. I don't trust them at all.

I know, I know about the latter part. Probably a devout ha'aretz reader and all. :DI read them for some months and they had good points, but some of their reporters are too leftist biased.

But meanwhile, I don't believe in taking unneccessary chances with that lot. I don't trust them at all.
as it hadn't much chances to happen, we can ignore it.
maybe by trying to make it impossible, you will unite them and bring the opposite sum.

I read them for some months and they had good points, but some of their reporters are too leftist biased.


as it hadn't much chances to happen, we can ignore it.
maybe by trying to make it impossible, you will unite them and bring the opposite sum.


*wonders how to say in hebrew*

Ceterum Censeo Cartaginem Delendam Esse...

*wonders how to say in hebrew*

Ceterum Censeo Cartaginem Delendam Esse...
if you tell me what it mean in english, I tell you how to sat it in hebrew ;)

Just consider the new violence in the Middle East for a minute. Does anyone here think that such events could facilitate or speed up the possible creation of a Pan-Arab state in the Middle East, like a second Ottoman Empire? Does anyone think this is even possible or likely?

Thoughts and commentary are welcome.
No, pan-Arabism is a dead ideology. Its heyday was around 1958.

The Ottoman Empire was no pan-Arab state, it was a multi-ethnic islamic empire. As for pan-Arabism, it was secular, socialist and nationalist. Pan-Arabism is dead, there's no real support for it any more. The ideology took a huge dent after the Six-Day War and these days it's islamism that's getting more popular.

No.

If they actually succeed at destroying Israel, they won't have their traditional boogeyman to hold up.

Then it will revert to Sunni vs. Shia, which they've already begun in Iraq.

They'll kill each other wholesale, and for a century (unless they nuke each other).
It depends. If they could manage to scrath together a decent economy, the Sunni/Shia thing would go very much the same way as the Catholic/Protestant thing. At first, when everyone is poor, it is a big deal. Families split and people die over the Sunni-Catholic/Shia-protestant thing. Then, as people get more money and society moderates it becomes something that matters to your parents more than it does to you, but still rather important (there would still be no intermarriage, but outright hate would be on the decline). Eventually, the whole thing would go back to an ancestral echo of "My senile grandma says I'm not supposed to like you, but I don't know why...let's get married". Finally, there will be hug surege of 'born-again' Islam which reverts to a simpler, deconstructualist doctrine of obey tenets of general niceness attributed to what Mohammed originally 'meant' to say.

If they do remain poor, though, then yes things will go to shit over whatever the man in the hat who is the claims to be the voice of god says is the cause of his people's misery.

Iran is Shiite and Persian and they have a say in any ARAB intention to pan anything .

Iran has its own imperialist intentions for the region .

The Ottoman Empire was not a Pan-Arab state. Turks are no Arabs (as well as Iranians are no Arabs) and Arabs do not like Turks (because of the oppression by the Turks during the existence of the Ottoman Empire).
But other than that, a Pan-Arab state as it was planned in the time of the Arab uprising (cf. Lawrence of Arabia) would be just fine. But for now it would just be sufficient to join Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian, Jordanian, Saudi, and non-Arab Iranian forces to erase the evil zionist state from the map.
Hey look, Mr. Nazi has returned

There will be no peace until the Jews have all returned to where they came from.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11408652&postcount=8


Of course there will never be peace. As soon as one "enemy" is beaten, the Jews will find a new one. Jews have always defined themselves through their enmity to others. That's also the purpose of the Tanaach.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11408671&postcount=11

All Jews are religious fundamentalists. Of course there is no Jewish race, but a ideologically driven group of people who have always believed to be something special
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11408692&postcount=17

You are right. Judaism is bigotry
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11408711&postcount=21

Jews aren't a people. They are a religious group.
And of course there is ant-Jewish sentiment among the Arab world. There has been anti-Jewish sentiment everywhere Jews have lived ever since Jews existed.
So if one kid always stirs trouble, is it the other kids' fault?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11434497&postcount=147
In the above post, this anti-semitic **** is saying the Jews are responsible for all bad things that occur to them such as the Czar's pogroms and the Holocaust.

It's more than that. The UN have simply realized that they have allowed statehood to an evil religious group and that this is an error that needs correction.http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11416869&postcount=65

The fact of the matter is that Israel has always been a terrorist state ever since its articifial creation. But what does one expect? Judaism is an unenlightened aggressive ideology after all.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11395352&postcount=195

What does the Munich incident have to do with any god? In Munich some Palestinians were only paying back some of the cruelty imposed on entire Palestine by the intruding Jews. Zionism has someting to to with the onedimensional Jewish view on god and their alleged covenant with a god, but not the Munich incident. You seem to forget what Israel had done just prior to 1972. And "Wrath of God" and the Israeli impudence to name their revenge thus should be the reason why you don''t anylonger believe in god, especially the Jewish god. The Palestinians have every right to defend themselves and hurt Israel in every way they can.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11366744&postcount=4

You want aggressive gods? Then go for the Jewish god: most arrogant, ignorant, jealous, and aggressive god of all...
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11366673&postcount=90


Jews launched an aggressive offensive against the Palestinians by coming to Palestine in the first place. Palestinians are only defending their ancestral land. There were always Jews in Palestine and that's OK. But what happened since the end of Ottoman rule in the province of Palestine due to the irresponsible and ideologically driven influx of foreign Jews is not OK.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11258727&postcount=697