NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been hearing rumors that scientists are ascribing the current heatwave we're experiencing to global warming (I'm assuming they mean man-made global warming). Anyone know the sources of these rumors or whether or they're true?

Bleeding-heart left-wing liberal tree-hugging so-called scientists and their fellow-travellers in the Media. :rolleyes: And Al Gore (he invented the Internet, you know).

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03438084.htm

Even Pat Robertson believes now. You KNOW it must be true!

Now that's out of the way, there's been talk of Global Warming causing things like heat-waves and shifts in weather patterns. I do think human activity is having an effect on the climate but what that effect will turn out to be, I'm not certain. Certainly pumping gobs of CO2 into the air can ramp up the greenhouse effect, warming the world. And we have seen some vicious hurricane seasons lately. There are quite a few concerned scientists talking about the issue, and that's probably what you're seeing in the news.

It's difficult to sift through the people who are saying the globe is warming and those who say the globe is warming largely because of human activity. Pat Robertson seems to have changed his mind simply because we have an unusually hot season. Well...I thought everyone agrees that there are cyclical warming and cooling periods and that the only real dispute is about how much is due to human activity.

Bleeding-heart left-wing liberal tree-hugging so-called scientists and their fellow-travellers in the Media. :rolleyes: And Al Gore (he invented the Internet, you know).


Yep... but it is going to be the children of the right wing, gas guzzling SUV owning, "who really cares about what happens in 50 years?", repubilcans who are going to inherit what is left of the world...

In the 70's everyone was scared of the new ICE age the scientist said was comming......all the records for my area temperature wise were set in the early 1900 's...so what ? Did we have global warming then ?

I anm not convinced...especially when we keep comparing events NOW to events in the past that were just as bad and at times more frequent .

I've been hearing rumors that scientists are ascribing the current heatwave we're experiencing to global warming (I'm assuming they mean man-made global warming). Anyone know the sources of these rumors or whether or they're true?

Yep. Scientists are a weird mob. When they get spooked by the scent of money, they stop making the distinction between "weather" and "climate."

Then, there's psuedo-scientists who will take money from the coal industry, to grab a month-long news cycle which will be discredited next winter when there's a record freeze. And they knew it, but the get to keep the money.

There are even scientists who will tell us that nuclear power is, and always was, the safest form of power generation.

What do you call a guy with a meteorology degree who works full time for a TV network? A weatherman.

Yep... but it is going to be the children of the right wing, gas guzzling SUV owning, "who really cares about what happens in 50 years?", repubilcans who are going to inherit what is left of the world...
Well, in 50 years I'll probably be gone, and I don't have any direct descendants, so on a certain level I don't much care. Still, one would like to pass on the world in at least the same shape it was in to later generations, which is something we're not doing.

It's true, as Sirrvs notes, that there are cycles of warming and cooling. And back in the 70s there was talk of an impending ice age, based mostly, I think, on the fact that we're due for another cool-off if you look at the timing of previous ones. So, yeah, the science is still being worked. Can human activity change the weather? I bet it can. Is it? That appears to depend on whom you ask these days. I lean toward Global warming being an actual happening event, but that's me and I'm not a climatologist.

In the 70's everyone was scared of the new ICE age the scientist said was comming......all the records for my area temperature wise were set in the early 1900 's...so what ? Did we have global warming then ?

I anm not convinced...especially when we keep comparing events NOW to events in the past that were just as bad and at times more frequent .

In the seventies, the long term expectation was an ICE AGE, within a few millenia. But the new science was already global warming.
Hell, they knew about increasing CO 2 in the seventies. The serious debate was about it's effects. You're pretending that orthodoxy thirty years ago discredits orthodoxy now. I've heard it before.

It's difficult to sift through the people who are saying the globe is warming and those who say the globe is warming largely because of human activity. Pat Robertson seems to have changed his mind simply because we have an unusually hot season. Well...I thought everyone agrees that there are cyclical warming and cooling periods and that the only real dispute is about how much is due to human activity.
Global warming is not really about it being hot today or having a heatwave in the northeast, or about the cycles. It is about increaseingly higher average global temperature. Local weather changes are very hard to predict, although they would be affected it's very difficult to say how.

CO2 affects that average temperature in a big measure, and we are today the largest producers of CO2.

I've been hearing rumors that scientists are ascribing the current heatwave we're experiencing to global warming (I'm assuming they mean man-made global warming). Anyone know the sources of these rumors or whether or they're true?

Not Global Warming, ManBearPig.

Doubtful that the current heat would have anything to do with global warming. Too soon, and too high a heat.

What about that theory of single volcanic eruptions producing more greenhouse gases than all human pollution in history combined? Any merit to that?

What about that theory of single volcanic eruptions producing more greenhouse gases than all human pollution in history combined? Any merit to that?

Or that 18,000 years ago there were glaciers in the midwest?

Heatwaves happen; most of the heat records broken were set in a variety of times many of which were 50-100 years ago. That tells me it's unlikely that global warming had anything to do with this. However, if these heatwaves became a repetitive trend and their occurences became both more prolonged and more severe, I think that would definitiely show a casuality between the two.

There is some other evidence, like the abnormally hotter nights, that seems to be a pretty surefire sign of global warming. However, the others like heatwaves and hurricanes have non-global warming explanations so they're not really tied to global warming at least until a clear trend emerges.

What about that theory of single volcanic eruptions producing more greenhouse gases than all human pollution in history combined? Any merit to that?
Volcanoes produce a lot of water vapor and CO2, but also ash. Lots and lots of ash that goes all the way up and blocks the sunlight.

Volcanoes produce a lot of water vapor and CO2, but also ash. Lots and lots of ash that goes all the way up and blocks the sunlight.
That's that bit about 'global dimming' right? From the documentary I saw, the concensus seems to be that global warming has a slight edge over dimming. (In terms of the strength of its effects)

That's that bit about 'global dimming' right? From the documentary I saw, the concensus seems to be that global warming has a slight edge over dimming. (In terms of the strength of its effects)
I think "global dimming" was covered yesterday in the "stupids are taking over" thread.

But seriously, as Vetalia noted, our weather records - good ones, scientifically kept - only go back maybe 150 years. Back beyond 1800 we have hardly anything that can be quantified (though the Japanese have been noting when the ice forms on a pond in the Imperial Palace for a very long time). Anyway, with the relatively small amount of data we have it's difficult to predict the future, but the data keeps accumulating. And anyway, would cutting down greenhouse emissions be that bad? Short of disemboweling your economy, I mean, and I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. We sent guys to the Moon because we wanted to, if we wanted to do what it takes to reduce greennhouse emissions as much, we could do it in the same amount of time.

What about that theory of single volcanic eruptions producing more greenhouse gases than all human pollution in history combined? Any merit to that?

completely untrue. when any of the supervolcanoes blow, it severely drops global temperatures for awhile and barely effects greenhouse gas concentration.

In the 70's everyone was scared of the new ICE age the scientist said was comming

due for, not coming - even back in those early days of climatology, the scientists knew something was up, though no consensus had been reached. after all, we already new about the heat trapping effects of greenhouse gases as far back as the 1820s, and had figured out the general outline of the relation between that and global climate by about 1900. and in the 1970s, we already had data like this coming in:

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~martins/irvine/ms/img028.gif

And anyway, would cutting down greenhouse emissions be that bad? Short of disemboweling your economy, I mean, and I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. We sent guys to the Moon because we wanted to, if we wanted to do what it takes to reduce greennhouse emissions as much, we could do it in the same amount of time.
Oh yeah, that's how I feel. Although I'm somewhat skeptical of the alarmist claims...I say we shouldn't be polluting anyway. It constitutes damage of other people's property and health. If only it was internalized in the cost of doing business, corporations would be much more willing to develop clean alternatives.

If only it was internalized in the cost of doing business, corporations would be much more willing to develop clean alternatives.

Clean alternatives are big money. Given that most of them are now cost competitive with fossil fuels at any price, they're going to be entering a boom period as companies find ways to permanently cut their energy costs, keep up with power demand, promote a green image or simply provide a more cost-effective source of backup power.

I've been hearing rumors that scientists are ascribing the current heatwave we're experiencing to global warming (I'm assuming they mean man-made global warming). Anyone know the sources of these rumors or whether or they're true?
Global climate change is a reality. Human actions are impacting global climate change. These realities are not in dispute among the mainstream scientific community. It's so bizarre to me that laypeople are talking about global warming as though it is some crazy new theory proposed by a radical fringe; it ain't news to climate scientists, or to anybody who bothers to read primary source material in that dicipline, and it's not like scientists have been trying to keep this shit a secret. They've been yelling at the top of their lungs for over a decade.

Global climate models (the only things that actually claim we're experiencing catastrophic warming) do not predict local or short-term weather.

There's no reason at all to believe the current heatwave is caused by global warming.

Remember the hurricanes. After last year, everyone predicted this would be the most active season ever, and blamed in global warming. But now forecasts have been revised downward, and we're looking at a fairly typical hurricane season. Why? Because Atlantic temperatures are down.

Clean alternatives are big money. Given that most of them are now cost competitive with fossil fuels at any price, they're going to be entering a boom period as companies find ways to permanently cut their energy costs, keep up with power demand, promote a green image or simply provide a more cost-effective source of backup power.
Maybe I should start moving around my investments. :D Actually, I should. I think you're right in the long run but right now big business seems convinced that the easiest way to cut short term costs is to reduce labor costs, which is why we see jobs being shipped overseas (I heard that Indian firms are now outsourcing to China because the Chinese work cheaper than the Indians, don't know if that's true). The sooner business figures out that it pays to reduce pollution, the better.

Heatwaves happen; most of the heat records broken were set in a variety of times many of which were 50-100 years ago. That tells me it's unlikely that global warming had anything to do with this. However, if these heatwaves became a repetitive trend and their occurences became both more prolonged and more severe, I think that would definitiely show a casuality between the two.

There is some other evidence, like the abnormally hotter nights, that seems to be a pretty surefire sign of global warming. However, the others like heatwaves and hurricanes have non-global warming explanations so they're not really tied to global warming at least until a clear trend emerges.

So 50 cities in America have already broken records this past week.

But thats just coincidence I guess.

So 50 cities in America have already broken records this past week.

But thats just coincidence I guess.
It's not a coincidence. It's a heat wave.
It's weather.
It's not global warming.

It's not a coincidence. It's a heat wave.
It's weather.
It's not global warming.

Yeah a heat wave that has been SETTING RECORD TEMPERATURES, meaning ITS THE HOTTEST HEAT WAVE YET.

I dont remember a heat wave hitting 111 degrees in New Jersey.

Funny thing is, Scientists have this silly little problem of liking to adhere to pop culture for their science. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

One thing I would like to point out, is that there have been a grand total of THREE named storms this year in the atlantic, none of them hurricane force, and we're in the height of hurricane season.

Global warming? Doubtful. We are in the midst of El Nino though, which, as I remember during the previous El Nino, we had lots of heatwaves then too...hmmm connection?

111 in New Jersey? And with 90% humidity, too, I bet. Make me homesick. All of which goes to show that when it comes to the weather (and by extension, the climate), we know hardly anything. I've often thought I could predict the weather better than the clown on TV just by looking out the window.

Yeah a heat wave that has been SETTING RECORD TEMPERATURES, meaning ITS THE HOTTEST HEAT WAVE YET.

I dont remember a heat wave hitting 111 degrees in New Jersey.
One can happen, two, or three even. Let's see what happens next year and the year after that, then maybe we can say there's a connection. (I'm not saying that global warming isn't a fact, it is; I'm just saying it may not be directly related to this heat wave, we won't know until we can see a pattern).

111 in New Jersey? And with 90% humidity, too, I bet. Make me homesick. All of which goes to show that when it comes to the weather (and by extension, the climate), we know hardly anything. I've often thought I could predict the weather better than the clown on TV just by looking out the window.

Well at least thats what the weather channel said. We all know thats a pool of liberal media spin right?

One can happen, two, or three even. Let's see what happens next year and the year after that, then maybe we can say there's a connection. (I'm not saying that global warming isn't a fact, it is; I'm just saying it may not be directly related to this heat wave, we won't know until we can see a pattern).

The pattern is clear: Its getting hotter.

Well at least thats what the weather channel said. We all know thats a pool of liberal media spin right?
I knew it! Gay liberal Islamofascists are ruining the global climate in order to re-make the entire world in the image of the Arabian desert where Islam arose! :rolleyes:

One can happen, two, or three even. Let's see what happens next year and the year after that, then maybe we can say there's a connection. (I'm not saying that global warming isn't a fact, it is; I'm just saying it may not be directly related to this heat wave, we won't know until we can see a pattern).
The trouble is, once we see the pattern, it may be too late. As I said earlier, what would be the harm in reducing greenhouse emissions just because polluting the atmosphere is uncool? (I have to add, however, that as I get older, I treasure warmer weather.)

One thing I would like to point out, is that there have been a grand total of THREE named storms this year in the atlantic, none of them hurricane force, and we're in the height of hurricane season.
Hurricane season just started. September and October are the busy months. Last year was very atypical (there was a hurricane in January, for crying out loud!) and scientists are not in agreement whether it was global warming the cause or not, a trend only develops after several years.

Global climate change is a reality. Human actions are impacting global climate change. These realities are not in dispute among the mainstream scientific community. It's so bizarre to me that laypeople are talking about global warming as though it is some crazy new theory proposed by a radical fringe; it ain't news to climate scientists, or to anybody who bothers to read primary source material in that dicipline, and it's not like scientists have been trying to keep this shit a secret. They've been yelling at the top of their lungs for over a decade.

But the sad bit is that after a decade (or three!) the oil and coal interests have realized that all this yelling might actually have some effect. And that graduates come cheap, and entire funded and copyrighted programs of research not too dear.

I think we are really at a crux for science here, and it's time for the scientists to move ground. The universities which used to be their moral high ground are increasingly privately funded, and therefore susceptible to funding influence, and their journals which provided the written legitimacy, the concept of peer-review in publishing, if not in actual verification of results, are being diversified into web-based publishing, with it's own commercial interests.
They can't rely on "we have dedicated out lives to this, so our opinion is the best." And they can't even rely on science, since it has always been divided, and at it's best when it is riven into competing factions.

What the scientists need to do is stop trying to influence government policy by force of argument, and start putting good workable alternatives into the public domain, where anyone can use them. Thus, the investment money competes with itself to grab those ideas ... there's no need to push them, or sell them. Just chuck them out there, let the investors make money off them, and the government claim credit. For the scientists, only the quiet satisfaction that they did the work, and saved the planet ... perhaps.

The pattern is clear: Its getting hotter.
Globally, yes. That doesn't mean necessarily that these heatwaves are a product of that, although it's difficult to imagine how they wouldn't. The net effect after some years may be more heatwaves, or more intense heatwaves, or a bit hotter with much milder winters. All of those would be warming.

This could be a freak heatwave or just one in a developing trend. We'll have to wait to know for sure.

Funny thing is, Scientists have this silly little problem of liking to adhere to pop culture for their science. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

One thing I would like to point out, is that there have been a grand total of THREE named storms this year in the atlantic, none of them hurricane force, and we're in the height of hurricane season.

Global warming? Doubtful. We are in the midst of El Nino though, which, as I remember during the previous El Nino, we had lots of heatwaves then too...hmmm connection?

You use the term "El Nino." By the standards of the seventies, you are a scientist.
We are all scientists. We love to doubt what we don't understand.
That's good. But ... hey ... get it already.

The trouble is, once we see the pattern, it may be too late. As I said earlier, what would be the harm in reducing greenhouse emissions just because polluting the atmosphere is uncool? (I have to add, however, that as I get older, I treasure warmer weather.)
Oh, yes, I don't disagree. Even without weather change clean air, soil and water are a good thing on their own. I'm just commenting that it's too early to say whether this particular heatwave is a result of global warming or not.

Yeah a heat wave that has been SETTING RECORD TEMPERATURES, meaning ITS THE HOTTEST HEAT WAVE YET.

I dont remember a heat wave hitting 111 degrees in New Jersey.
And since your brain is the ultimate stockpile of all knowledge, we should totally trust your recollection.

Have you bothered to check if such a heat wave is unprecedented?

And since your brain is the ultimate stockpile of all knowledge, we should totally trust your recollection.

Have you bothered to check if such a heat wave is unprecedented?

New Jersey (NJ) "Garden State"
Capital: Trenton
Average Summer Temperature: 27 .6c

Just in case you dont know 27.6c is about 81f.

I remember as a kid, 90 degrees was considered a heat wave. 111 was unheard of.

New Jersey (NJ) "Garden State"
Capital: Trenton
Average Summer Temperature: 27 .6c

Just in case you dont know 27.6c is about 81f.

I remember as a kid, 90 degrees was considered a heat wave. 111 was unheard of.
Gee. The average. That tells me nothing at all about the extremes.

What's the highest temperature ever recorded in New Jersey? How many times has the temperature exceeded 110°? These would be much more useful figures.

For example, if I told you my hometown's average daytime high temperature in July was 22.9°C, what does tell you about how likely a 32°C day is?

Not much. The highest temperature ever recorded there in July was 36.1°C (in 1919).

In the 70's everyone was scared of the new ICE age the scientist said was comming......all the records for my area temperature wise were set in the early 1900 's...so what ? Did we have global warming then ?

I anm not convinced...especially when we keep comparing events NOW to events in the past that were just as bad and at times more frequent .

You obviously were not alive in the 70's and gathered your tidbit there from some corporate thinktank talking points article. Your statement is simply a lie. There was ONE STUDY that looked at global dimming (a valid point,) and conjectured that it might cause cooling. It does, but global warming trumps it. There was NO SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS and the media hyped it for about A WEEK.

As for the morons who say "but bad weather happened in the past, that means man isn't doing it!" that's just a stupid argument. People die every day of natural causes. THAT DOES NOT MEAN MURDER DOES NOT EXIST. Natural cycles have natural causes, such as solar fluctuations, distance to the sun, angle of the globe to the sun, ocean currents, volcanic activity, cosmic radiation, cow farts, etc.. When man pumps CO2 and other pollutants in the air, all those other factors don't GO AWAY. Man AUGMENTS the natural cycle by adding his input in together with all the natural inputs.

Do global warming deniers even listen to their own arguments and think them out? It doesn't seem like it. They're perfectly happy quoting SINGLE, POORLY SUPPORTED SOURCES as if they were gospel, instead of looking at the big picture.

There's a danger in taking todays temperature and trying to apply that to a global change. It's possible that it is due to Global Warming. I can't see why this isn't a reaction of climate change but there are better and more accurate indicators of Global Warming than a fine day to be at the beach.

OH and:
"The hottest temperature ever recorded in Trenton was 102 °F (38.9 °C) on July 3, 1966; July 16, 1988; and July 5, 1999."
http://www.answers.com/topic/trenton-new-jersey

I've been hearing rumors that scientists are ascribing the current heatwave we're experiencing to global warming (I'm assuming they mean man-made global warming). Anyone know the sources of these rumors or whether or they're true?

global warming = BS!

global warming = BS!
You need to remember that words mean things and that they can be used to hurt. You could hurt somebody using words like that.

Hmmm... colder winters are weather and not climate.
Yet hotter summers are climate?

Or that 18,000 years ago there were glaciers in the midwest?
Or that there used to be vineyards in greenland.

Hmmm... colder winters are weather and not climate.
Yet hotter summers are climate?

Can you point out the person who said that? Hmmmm?

Global Warming deniers always quote "they".

Or that there used to be vineyards in greenland.

The world also used to be a molten lump of rock. What's your point? That if something happens once, it always has the same cause, even of the evidence points against it?

Just because something CAN happen and HAS happened naturally doesn't mean all occurences of that something are natural.

Or that there used to be vineyards in greenland.

no there weren't

no there weren't
No, there weren't, but it's interesting that prior to 1200, England exported wine to France. What that has to do with anything, I don't know. I do think human activity is having an effect on climate and that we could easily mitigate that effect if we wanted ("we" here being the US government). Or if someone proved that reducing greenhouse gas emissions could earn huge amounts of money.

Its hot in the summer...this is news to me .:D

Can you point out the person who said that? Hmmmm?

Global Warming deniers always quote "they".
At least say Hippies or Tree Huggers or Extreme Leftists or Nature Freaks or....

OH and:
"The hottest temperature ever recorded in Trenton was 102 °F (38.9 °C) on July 3, 1966; July 16, 1988; and July 5, 1999."
http://www.answers.com/topic/trenton-new-jersey


But that is Trenton and not Newark, about an hour's drive northward, where that 111 was recorded.

Newark is very industrial and has a massive airport.

Also, given that the temperatures are back to normal today, is not tearing one's hair over a three day period of out-of-the-ordinary heat as being a harbinger of doom rather silly?

we have yet to break one heat reccord in Philadelphia....maybe its really the ice age and not the warming thing ?

we have yet to break one heat reccord in Philadelphia....maybe its really the ice age and not the warming thing ?
Keep an eye out for the glaciers sliding down out of the Poconos. :eek:

Keep an eye out for the glaciers sliding down out of the Poconos. :eek:


That would be really cool :p

That would be really cool :p
Actually, it would. I'm not sure if the glaciers actually got as far as Philadelphia last time around. I know they got to Central Jersey.

no there weren't


Sssshhh....reality has a left-wing bias. It can be safely be ignored in favour of outright lies.

Sssshhh....reality has a left-wing bias. It can be safely be ignored in favour of outright lies.
OutRight lies?

OutRight lies?


http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5567/iseewhat3ag0dx.jpg

But that is Trenton and not Newark, about an hour's drive northward, where that 111 was recorded.

Newark is very industrial and has a massive airport.

Also, given that the temperatures are back to normal today, is not tearing one's hair over a three day period of out-of-the-ordinary heat as being a harbinger of doom rather silly?
Yes. I believe its very silly. Somebody just wanted the hottest temperatures in NJ and thats what I turned up.

The high temperatures are typical of what will happen with Climate Change. Very low temperatures may also happen. To pick one and say, "There you have it," I find to be very silly. Like I said before, there are more accurate indicators of Climate Change and a three day heatwave is not the best or even one that should be given time in an argument.

Can you point out the person who said that? Hmmmm?

Global Warming deniers always quote "they".
I didn't say they did I?

You always are a bit snarky aint ya?

My point, was that last winter, when people posted that it was one of the coldest that they remember, you, Free Soviets et al were tripping all over yourselves trying to post so fast that there is a difference between weather and climate.

Someone posts that this is one of the hottest summers they remember, and do we get the same response? What we get on this thread is "gee, I don't know... if the trend is hotter, sure it's climate change"

I didn't say they did I?

You always are a bit snarky aint ya?

My point, was that last winter, when people posted that it was one of the coldest that they remember, you, Free Soviets et al were tripping all over yourselves trying to post so fast that there is a difference between weather and climate.

Someone posts that this is one of the hottest summers they remember, and do we get the same response? What we get on this thread is "gee, I don't know... if the trend is hotter, sure it's climate change"
The problem with this is that some places may in fact get colder due to Climate Change.

"December 18, 2003
Saltier Atlantic and Global Warming
Again the complexity of climate change becomes apparent. Sub-systems in the global climatic system may shift to another state - leading to highly variable regional changes in climate. In this case, changes in the saltiness of the Atlantic may lead to colder temperatures in Europe and New England. This is entirely consistent with what has perhaps been misdescribed as "global warming" on the basis of a higher average global temperature. However, it appears to be emerging that greater variability and climatic extremes in multiple directions (hotter or colder, wetter or drier) is at least as serious of threat to global ecological sustainability and human societies.

Boston.com / News / Nation / Saltier Atlantic may help decipher global warming

Researchers announced yesterday that the tropical Atlantic Ocean is much saltier than it was 50 years ago, a discovery that may help shed light on a poorly understood climate system that could have implications for global warming."
http://www.climateark.org/blog/2003/12/

I didn't say they did I?

You always are a bit snarky aint ya?

My point, was that last winter, when people posted that it was one of the coldest that they remember, you, Free Soviets et al were tripping all over yourselves trying to post so fast that there is a difference between weather and climate.

Someone posts that this is one of the hottest summers they remember, and do we get the same response? What we get on this thread is "gee, I don't know... if the trend is hotter, sure it's climate change"

Most of the people knowledgeable about Global Warming have made it clear that a heat wave is not proof of Global Warming. Weather is not climate, whether it's hot or cold. Period.