NationStates Jolt Archive

It's widely believed that the reason the U.S. government, whether democrat or republican, always stands by Israel is simply because of the powerful Jewish lobby in the country. But something I've always wondered about and haven't found any numbers on yet is exactly how damaging it would be to a politician to oppose Israel. Could one get away with losing the Jewish vote in the U.S.?

I was wondering the same thing about the Cuban vote in Florida. Our embargo against Cuba has remained in place because the government is afraid of losing the favor of the Florida Cubans who hate Castro. But really, we stand for free trade and yet we're starving an entire nation to save a few votes. Again, could one get away with losing the Florida Cuban lobby?

Consider that Jews are a minor percentage of just about any US electorate - local, state, or Federal.

Consider that Jews do not run the media or the movie industry, despite Mel Gibson's claims to the contrary.

Consider that over 80 percent of Jews support the Democratic Party, no matter how they get abused by any individual Democratic candidate.

The other 20 percent (mostly Orthodox and Conservative Jews) always vote Republican, but that's a really tiny number of people. The only place they may constitute a majority of the population is Far Rockaway, New York.

Sure, they have some money, but so do most major corporations, etc.

It's a tinfoil hat conspiracy to think that the US does things solely because of the "Jewish lobby".

It's widely believed that the reason the U.S. government, whether democrat or republican, always stands by Israel is simply because of the powerful Jewish lobby in the country. But something I've always wondered about and haven't found any numbers on yet is exactly how damaging it would be to a politician to oppose Israel. Could one get away with losing the Jewish vote in the U.S.?

I was wondering the same thing about the Cuban vote in Florida. Our embargo against Cuba has remained in place because the government is afraid of losing the favor of the Florida Cubans who hate Castro. But really, we stand for free trade and yet we're starving an entire nation to save a few votes. Again, could one get away with losing the Florida Cuban lobby?
That would depend upon what the individual politician's constituency looked like. Obviously, if there are a lot of jews or cubans in the mix, it would be political suicide to either oppose Israel or be in favor of Castro, whichever applied.

.It's a tinfoil hat conspiracy to think that the US does things solely because of the "Jewish lobby".

Don't you realize that the Jews are in league with the aliens?

Probably not. The embargo has lasted so long that people seem to 'forget' because it doesn't directly affect them. Hence why the Cuban vote in Florida doesn't demand more freedom for Cuba. Could you win with out? Well I wouldn't like to try.

Don't you realize that the Jews are in league with the aliens?
Yes, in fact they've been communicating with aliens since the book of Ezekiel.

Probably not. The embargo has lasted so long that people seem to 'forget' because it doesn't directly affect them. Hence why the Cuban vote in Florida doesn't demand more freedom for Cuba. Could you win with out? Well I wouldn't like to try.


Isn't that what the losing side in the Elections did?

Consider that Jews are a minor percentage of just about any US electorate - local, state, or Federal.

Consider that Jews do not run the media or the movie industry, despite Mel Gibson's claims to the contrary.

Consider that over 80 percent of Jews support the Democratic Party, no matter how they get abused by any individual Democratic candidate.

The other 20 percent (mostly Orthodox and Conservative Jews) always vote Republican, but that's a really tiny number of people. The only place they may constitute a majority of the population is Far Rockaway, New York.

Sure, they have some money, but so do most major corporations, etc.

It's a tinfoil hat conspiracy to think that the US does things solely because of the "Jewish lobby".

As usual DK, you hit the nail right on the head. Good work!

It's a tinfoil hat conspiracy to think that the US does things solely because of the "Jewish lobby".
But then it still leaves me and the rest of the world puzzled as to why our country almost without question, stands by Israel. I'm not saying it's wrong or making any judgements about Israel, but I curious about the government's motives. If it's not because of the lobby, what exactly makes us so close to Israel while other countries are not?

Take the current Lebanon conflict. As far as I know, the U.S. is the only country that stood by Israel in not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Why? And for that matter, why is France so eager, all of a sudden, to send troops to Lebanon. (I'm guessing it's because of when French peacekeepers were killed by Lebanese suicide bombers?)

But then it still leaves me and the rest of the world puzzled as to why our country almost without question, stands by Israel. I'm not saying it's wrong or making any judgements about Israel, but I curious about the government's motives. If it's not because of the lobby, what exactly makes us so close to Israel while other countries are not?

Take the current Lebanon conflict. As far as I know, the U.S. is the only country that stood by Israel in not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Why? And for that matter, why is France so eager, all of a sudden, to send troops to Lebanon. (I'm guessing it's because of when French peacekeepers were killed by Lebanese suicide bombers?)

Because the French are too busy being nice to scumbags who riot in the streets.
The French Government should have used the tanks last year.

But then it still leaves me and the rest of the world puzzled as to why our country almost without question, stands by Israel. I'm not saying it's wrong or making any judgements about Israel, but I curious about the government's motives. If it's not because of the lobby, what exactly makes us so close to Israel while other countries are not?

Take the current Lebanon conflict. As far as I know, the U.S. is the only country that stood by Israel in not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Why? And for that matter, why is France so eager, all of a sudden, to send troops to Lebanon. (I'm guessing it's because of when French peacekeepers were killed by Lebanese suicide bombers?)


Because we believe that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that killed hundreds of US Marines not so long ago. And because most European nations don't think of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, because Hezbollah hasn't attacked them. Maybe it's because Hezbollah has run many cells in the US, to raise money through illicit cigarette and drug sales to pay for suicide bombers in Israel.

France is interested because they've always been a regional influence in Lebanon (Beirut has traditionally been called "The Paris of the Middle East").

Because the French are too busy being nice to scumbags who riot in the streets.
The French Government should have used the tanks last year.

Hah! Tanks! You're too soft BogMarsh. They should have just evacuated all the good Christians and nuked the place.

But then it still leaves me and the rest of the world puzzled as to why our country almost without question, stands by Israel. I'm not saying it's wrong or making any judgements about Israel, but I curious about the government's motives. If it's not because of the lobby, what exactly makes us so close to Israel while other countries are not?

Take the current Lebanon conflict. As far as I know, the U.S. is the only country that stood by Israel in not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Why? And for that matter, why is France so eager, all of a sudden, to send troops to Lebanon. (I'm guessing it's because of when French peacekeepers were killed by Lebanese suicide bombers?)


Israel and the US share the same values. They are the lone democracy in the Middle East, they advocate freedom for all of its inhabitants regardless of religion, race, etc. They are the one country in the region with pretty much identical ideals and goals as the US.

Like DK said, Hizballah is a terrorist organization and the Bush Administration along with most of America view Israel's fight with hizballah as the same fight that the US is fighting against Islamo-fascists in Afghanistan and Iraq.

On another note, I am an active member of AIPAC and I am a campus leader at my University for our AIPAC contingency. All we got going for us are the facts on the ground and a whole lot of hard work, no secret Jew power hidden here...

The U.S. views the Hezbollah as proxy fighters for Iran, since they do get a lot of funding from them. Part of the support for Israel does come from Jewish supporters, but to think that there is some type of mega-conspiracy allowing the Jews to dictate America's actions in the Mid-East at risk of getting the Sheeny-Curse is a load of crap started by anti-semiticals. You want a real lobby to shake a stick at, look at the Oil Lobby. Those guys are the ones to watch out for, and dictate foreign policy more than any Jewish Lobby, should such a lobby exist.

Yes, America supports Israel, because Israel does advocate certain rights that Americans advocate. (O-kay, o-kay, advocate on paper. Let's not bring Guitmo into this.) Hezbollah is a guerilla-terrorist organization that is funded by Iran, which is also on Bush's list of places to conquer. Again, America does not have a Jewish Lobby that can be blamed for our foreign policy, but an Oil Lobby that can be targeted.

-KIng Arthur the Great: OUT!

Israel and the US share the same values. They are the lone democracy in the Middle East, they advocate freedom for all of its inhabitants regardless of religion, race, etc. They are the one country in the region with pretty much identical ideals and goals as the US.
.

horseshit. lebanon and turkey are fully democratic and iran and syria are of sorts.

israel advocates freedom for its palestinain and muslim population? FIFA banned them from playing home games in jerusalem because of the vile racism directed towords arab and black players. pull the other one.

there are lots of democracies around that dont get the material or moral support israel does, so there must be something more to it than that.

horseshit. lebanon and turkey are fully democratic and iran and syria are of sorts.turkey aren't involved much in the middle east and USa aren't oppose them.
lebanon are dummy leadership of syria and iran, both aren't democratic nor share the same values with USA.

israel advocates freedom for its palestinain and muslim population? FIFA banned them from playing home games in jerusalem because of the vile racism directed towords arab and black players. pull the other one.
first, I want link for that. I didn't hear that, and I think I will know if israeli teams would be banned.
second, eufa (not fifa which let the region decide for themselves) limit the playing territory to tel-aviv and their area (from the time of the suicide bombs and currently the lebanon thing mean we can't play in israel at all)
third, the jeruslamic racism of kahanist which are beitar-jerusalem fans isn't goverment policy (and it also much moderate racism compare the european leagues).

there are lots of democracies around that dont get the material or moral support israel does, so there must be something more to it than that.
what exactly you define as democracy ?(if iran and syria are "of sorts" it probably vague)

horseshit. lebanon and turkey are fully democratic and iran and syria are of sorts.

Lebanon also has members of a terrorist organization in it's parliament AND in the cabinet. That isn't in the U.S.'s interest at all. Turkey is part of Europe. Iran is certainly not a democracy, as it is run by fanatical Mullahs and Islamic extremists and take away rigts from their people. Syria a democracy? That's a joke. Former leader of Syria Hafez al Assad overthrew the Syrian government in the 70s and consoldiated power and ruled for 30 years until his son took over after his death. That is NOT a democracy>

israel advocates freedom for its palestinain and muslim population? FIFA banned them from playing home games in jerusalem because of the vile racism directed towords arab and black players. pull the other one.

Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens and therefore have no reason to be treated or enjoy the same rights as such. The overwhelming majority of the terrorists that infiltrate Israel are Palestinian and come from the Palestinian territories and therefore are a security risk.

All Muslim and Arab Israeli citizens share the same rights as any Jewish or Christian Israeli. It's simply a fact.

As for FIFA, I'm not familiar with the case, but last time I checked, the internationa football association wasn't a credible venue of information when it comes to international politics, and frankly, when it coes to Israel, it doesn't matter squat what they say or think.

Vile racism towards Arabs and blacks? I already explained about Arabs...but if you wanna go for the blacks as well, I'll be happy to oblige. Apparently you don't know anything about Operation Moses and Operation Solomon, both of which were massive operations that air llifted thousands of Ethipopian (yes, there are black people there) Jews to Israel who had previously been unable to or discouraged from emigrating by their unstable government. So there are thousands of black Jews who live in Israel and enjoy the same rights as any other Israeli.

Moreover, if we all haven't forgotten, after Ghana scored their second goal againstthe Czech Republic, John Paintsil, a BLACK Ghanian player, waived the Israeli flag to show support for his Israeli fans that came to support him because he plays for an ISRAELI team. So there goes your lie about Israel being racist.

It’s actually mostly evangelical Christians, of which there are far more than Jews, who lobby the politicians to support Israel.

They’re trying to bring about the Revelation prophesies, you see.

It’s actually mostly evangelical Christians, of which there are far more than Jews, who lobby the politicians to support Israel.

They’re trying to bring about the Revelation prophesies, you see.

Now THAT is what I call hitting the nail on the head.

OMG TEH j00ZZZzZzzzz!!!!1!11

*waves arms wildly*

That's just silly...I don't remember lobbying for anything.

and we are off!!

i stated that there are other democracies in the region and there is a history of racism in isreal and the flameing begins.

to say thats its acceptible to treat non-nationals badly because you deny them citizenship in the first place is laughable. the organisers of soccer have threatened to bar israel from the sport as a result of bananas being thrown on the pitch doenst mean its government policy to abuse black men, it means israel has some vocal racists, especially the beitar fans as GI agrees, which it has dealt with.

isreal is not a perfect democracy, nowhere is. it has the same problems and challenges dozens of states do. but it gets more support from the US than anyone else, so its logical that there has to be more than just 'ibecause its a democracy' at play.

It’s actually mostly evangelical Christians, of which there are far more than Jews, who lobby the politicians to support Israel.

They’re trying to bring about the Revelation prophesies, you see.
None of my friends are trying to bring about the apocalypse, but we all support Israel in it's struggle against the genocidal, extremist muslims who seek to destroy it. How do you explain that?

None of my friends are trying to bring about the apocalypse, but we all support Israel in it's struggle against the genocidal, extremist muslims who seek to destroy it. How do you explain that?

you hang around with racists?

and we are off!!

i stated that there are other democracies in the region and there is a history of racism in isreal and the flameing begins. israel has no history of racism, although there are israeli racists all over the world. most of the israeli racist target muslims, large part of that because of historical reasons or religous fundementalism. it isn't acceptable but it also isn't deifferent than the rest of the world (and it mostly much better than the arab racism).
also, there aren't other democracies in the middle east (if turkey is in europe). there are arab opperessive regimes.

to say thats its acceptible to treat non-nationals badly because you deny them citizenship in the first place is laughable. we didn't treat the palastinians in racial way.

the organisers of soccer have threatened to bar israel from the sport as a result of bananas being thrown on the pitch doenst mean its government policy to abuse black men, it means israel has some vocal racists, especially the beitar fans as GI agrees, which it has dealt with. this is act of soccer holigans which curse every one in the other team. I not proud of that, but they are nearly everywhere
anyway it is small group which dosen't prove your point. can I get the link I ask for?

isreal is not a perfect democracy, nowhere is. it has the same problems and challenges dozens of states do. but it gets more support from the US than anyone else, so its logical that there has to be more than just 'ibecause its a democracy' at play.no one is perfect, here you right.
but the israeli-american relationship benefit both sides economically, technologically and diplomatilly. there aren't secret interests or monsterous jewish lobby which make them support us.

you hang around with racists?
his post was about the israeli supportes=evangical christians who want apoclypsa. what it had to do with racism?

snip

you misunderstand my point. im saying isreal has hooligans and racists like everywhere else. its not special, despite some of the cheerleading. we have them in ireland too. but we dont get $1.4m a day in dierct aid from the US. nowehere else does, so i think its very naive to suggest that the reason your state gets backed up to the extent it does because it just happens to be democratic. i dont buy the big bad jew bogeyman holding the US govt to ransom for one second, but there is something going on. maybe it is the religious right trying to bring about the second coming. more likely its just inertia; the US supports them because they always have, its just a given in american political culture

but i would question what diplomatic benefits the US gets from the relationship, and economic and technical stuff would happen anyway due to normal trade, i think thats the point of the OP.

his post was about the israeli supportes=evangical christians who want apoclypsa. what it had to do with racism?

he seems to present a very blinkered view of muslims and why the conflict in the mid east happens. borederline xenephobic to be fair

None of my friends are trying to bring about the apocalypse, but we all support Israel in it's struggle against the genocidal, extremist muslims who seek to destroy it. How do you explain that?
I'm an evangelical Christian.

However, contrary to popular opinion

evangelical Christian != darbyite dispensationalist

For those who are not familiar with the term, the dispensationalists are those who believe that these are the End Times (and are cheering that on).

Pentacostals are not dispensationalists. And yet they are evangelical Christians. We're not cheering on the end of the world, nor do we think that we're living in the End Times.

Nice smear.

Only in my sleep-deprived brain can I see this topic and think "Wait, they banned 'Seperate But Equal' way back when. So there is no Jewish/Gentile Lobbies. One Lobby for all."

I think I need a Nap.

you misunderstand my point. im saying isreal has hooligans and racists like everywhere else. its not special, despite some of the cheerleading. we have them in ireland too. but we dont get $1.4m a day in dierct aid from the US. nowehere else does, so i think its very naive to suggest that the reason your state gets backed up to the extent it does because it just happens to be democratic. i dont buy the big bad jew bogeyman holding the US govt to ransom for one second, but there is something going on. maybe it is the religious right trying to bring about the second coming. more likely its just inertia; the US supports them because they always have, its just a given in american political culture

but i would question what diplomatic benefits the US gets from the relationship, and economic and technical stuff would happen anyway due to normal trade, i think thats the point of the OP.



he seems to present a very blinkered view of muslims and why the conflict in the mid east happens. borederline xenephobic to be fair

Israel gets so much aid because she is surrounded by enemy nations that wish to seek her destruction and have been under constant attack from an Arab army since her inception. But the aid has been going down over the years anyways and the surrounding Arab countries also get extremly large amounts of aid from the U.S.-

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf21.html#g

MYTH

“U.S. aid in the Middle East has always been one-sided, with the Arabs getting practically nothing.”

FACT

After Israel's victory in its War of Independence, the U.S. responded to an appeal for economic aid to help absorb immigrants by approving a $135 million Export-Import Bank loan and the sale of surplus commodities. In those early years of Israel's statehood (also today), U.S. aid was seen as a means of promoting peace.

In 1951, Congress voted to help Israel cope with the economic burdens imposed by the influx of Jewish refugees from the displaced persons camps in Europe and from the ghettos of the Arab countries. Arabs then complained the U.S. was neglecting them, though they had no interest in or use for American aid then. In 1951, Syria rejected offers of U.S. aid. Oil-rich Iraq and Saudi Arabia did not need U.S. economic assistance, and Jordan was, until the late 1950s, the ward of Great Britain. After 1957, when the United States assumed responsibility for supporting Jordan and resumed economic aid to Egypt, assistance to the Arab states soared. Also, the United States was by far the biggest contributor of aid to the Palestinians through UNRWA, a status that continues to the present.

Israel has received more direct aid from the United States since World War II than any other country, but the amounts for the first half of this period were relatively small. Between 1949 and 1973, the U.S. provided Israel with an average of about $122 million a year, a total of $3.1 billion (and actually more than $1 billion of that was loans for military equipment in 1971-73) . Prior to 1971, Israel received a total of only $277 million in military aid, all in the form of loans as credit sales. The bulk of the economic aid was also lent to Israel. By comparison, the Arab states received nearly three times as much aid before 1971, $4.4 billion, or $170 million per year. Moreover, unlike Israel, which receives nearly all its aid from the United States, Arab nations have gotten assistance from Asia, Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union and the European Community.

“It is my responsibility to see that our policy in Israel fits in with our policy throughout the world; second, it is my desire to help build in Palestine a strong, prosperous, free and independent democratic state. It must be large enough, free enough, and strong enough to make its people self-supporting and secure.”

— President Truman, October 28, 1948, campaign speech at Madison Square Garden

Israel did not begin to receive large amounts of assistance until 1974, following the 1973 war, and the sums increased dramatically after the Camp David agreements. Altogether, since 1949, Israel has received more than $90 billion in assistance. Though the totals are impressive, the value of assistance to Israel has been eroded by inflation.

Arab states that have signed agreements with Israel have also been rewarded. Since signing the peace treaty with Israel, Egypt has been the second largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid ($2 billion in 2002, Israel received $2.8 billion). Jordan has also been the beneficiary of higher levels of aid since it signed a treaty with Israel (increasing from less than $40 million to more than $225 million). The multibillion dollar debts to the U.S. of both Arab nations were also forgiven.

After the Oslo agreements, the United States also began providing funding to the Palestinians. It now provides $80 million in humanitarian assistance via the U.S. Agency for International Development. It provides no direct aid to the Palestinian Authority because it is viewed as corrupt. President Bush specifically warned the Palestinians that they must change their leadership and embrace reform to obtain future assistance. "I can assure you," Bush said, "we won't be putting money into a society which is not transparent and [is] corrupt."9a

It's widely believed that the reason the U.S. government, whether democrat or republican, always stands by Israel is simply because of the powerful Jewish lobby in the country. But something I've always wondered about and haven't found any numbers on yet is exactly how damaging it would be to a politician to oppose Israel. one way to figure this out.. is

to see how the Media has treated whoever was critical about Israel/the Jews.

I propose we submit a name of any public person ..who was critical the Israelis.. and compare it.. to other public persons who said something equivalent about the Arabs/Muslims.

then we compare the Media bashing.. and consequenses on their careers..

Israel gets so much aid because she is surrounded by enemy nations that wish to seek her destruction and have been under constant attack from an Arab army since her inception. But the aid has been going down over the years anyways and the surrounding Arab countries also get extremly large amounts of aid from the U.S.-

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf21.html#g

then why not tibet? east timor? the kurds? how come israel gets such a helping hand? whats special about one state being under attack as opposesd to others?

and the uncritical moral support? the state of isreal wouldnt collapse if the US didnt block calls for an immediate ceasefire in the lebanon.

hmmmm

then why not tibet? east timor? the kurds? how come israel gets such a helping hand? whats special about one state being under attack as opposesd to others?

Why the Palestinians? Why does the UN single the Palestinians out as the largest reciepient of foreign aid. Why did they continuously pump money into the corrupt PLO Palestinian Authority and ignore the genocides in Rwanda and Darfur and all the other REAL massacres that are occuring throughout the world. Israel is a beacon of freedom and democracy in a region that is in high need of that. They would act as any country would react.

and the uncritical moral support? the state of isreal wouldnt collapse if the US didnt block calls for an immediate ceasefire in the lebanon.

hmmmm

Israel wouldn't collapse, but the people of Israel would be forced to live in terror, side by side with a terrorist entity that will continue to launch raids and rockets into Israel, regardless of what piece of paper is signed by the UN. They've ignored 1559 and creating another copy with the same charge after the initials failuire is ludicrous.

None of my friends are trying to bring about the apocalypse, but we all support Israel in it's struggle against the genocidal, extremist muslims who seek to destroy it. How do you explain that?
The Republican Party doesn’t care about you or your friends, unless any of you have exutive positions in a corporation complacent or a partner in one of their in their myriad plans. The Evangelicals are the reason the US supports Israel, period.

I wonder how civilized people can even take sides in this conflict, but than again, many Americans supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

The Republican Party doesn’t care about you or your friends, unless any of you have exutive positions in a corporation complacent or a partner in one of their in their myriad plans. The Evangelicals are the reason the US supports Israel, period.

I wonder how civilized people can even take sides in this conflict, but than again, many Americans supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq.


When was the last time Jewish extremists flew airliners into US buildings, killing thousands of US citizens?

When was the last time Islamic extremists flew airliners into US buildings, killing thousands of US citizens?

Isreal has only the USS Liberty as a black mark.

How many US citizens killed, attacked, taken hostage, or otherwise fucked by Islamic extremists or Jewish extremists?

I think the Islamic extremists are the ones with the major PR problem in America. You don't have to be an evangelical to want to nuke them until they glow.

The Republican Party doesn’t care about you or your friends, unless any of you have exutive positions in a corporation complacent or a partner in one of their in their myriad plans. The Evangelicals are the reason the US supports Israel, period.

I wonder how civilized people can even take sides in this conflict, but than again, many Americans supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq.


The head of the RNC is Ken Mehlman. He is a Jew. There are many Jews in the Bush Administration and they definately aren't trying to bring about the apocalypse.

Take sides? It's ok for the Jewish nation to have 100's of rockets fired at it a day and be subjected to cross border raids and the death of its servicemen. We're all cool with that right?

Why the Palestinians? Why does the UN single the Palestinians out as the largest reciepient of foreign aid.

because they need it

Why did they continuously pump money into the corrupt PLO Palestinian Authority and ignore the genocides in Rwanda and Darfur and all the other REAL massacres that are occuring throughout the world.

thats a good question for another thread. they were the recognised government of the palestinain people by most members of the UN


Israel is a beacon of freedom and democracy in a region that is in high need of that. They would act as any country would react.

spare me the sanctimonious sermon. they are playing very nasty at the moment, another 20 innocents blown to pieces today. their behaviuor towords the palestinains over the years has been a disgrace.



Israel wouldn't collapse, but the people of Israel would be forced to live in terror, side by side with a terrorist entity that will continue to launch raids and rockets into Israel, regardless of what piece of paper is signed by the UN. They've ignored 1559 and creating another copy with the same charge after the initials failuire is ludicrous.

oh the poor israelis. very hard to see them as the victims after the past 3 weeks of killing lebonese children. for what? and im getting very fed up of 1559 being brought up by israeli supporters. yes they should, but israel has 61 resolutions outstanding.

all the more reason to wonder why the US 100% agrees with them all the time

When was the last time Jewish extremists flew airliners into US buildings, killing thousands of US citizens?
.

do you think they would hesitate if they thought it would further their cause?

oh the poor israelis. very hard to see them as the victims after the past 3 weeks of killing lebonese children.

In comparison to the years of rocket fire from Hezbollah and the dozens of suicide bombings by Hamas?

for what? and im getting very fed up of 1559 being brought up by israeli supporters. yes they should, but israel has 61 resolutions outstanding.

Of course you are because it shows the hypocrisy of your position by not throwing the same vitriol at the nations supporting terrorist organizations that have called for the complete destruction of Israel and the deaths of all Jews, when not calling for it themselves. All the while the UN is calling for Isreal to "play nice".

thats not true, if there were iranians and syrians on this forum i would have a go at them.

but there isnt. im quite consistant in my criticism of murder and human rights abuses believe it or not

When was the last time Jewish extremists flew airliners into US buildings, killing thousands of US citizens?

When was the last time Islamic extremists flew airliners into US buildings, killing thousands of US citizens?

Isreal has only the USS Liberty as a black mark.

How many US citizens killed, attacked, taken hostage, or otherwise fucked by Islamic extremists or Jewish extremists?

I think the Islamic extremists are the ones with the major PR problem in America. You don't have to be an evangelical to want to nuke them until they glow.
Americans aren't the only people in the world that matter.

Neither the Islamic extremists nor the Israeli government and its IDF have the best interest of all the inhabitants of the Middle East at heart.
That doesn’t mean we have a responsibility to do anything about it, but that also means we shouldn’t take sides.

Hezbollah hides among civilians, which is atrocious, and Israel bombs those civilians, which is equally disdainful

I am so incredibly confused by this whole thing... I listen to the news, I read articles, I read stuff on the forums... I'm confused. Is it necessary to have a position on where to stand on this issue because I'm thoroughly out of my mind trying to understand this extensive history and then trying to make it mesh with current events.

Hezbollah hides among civilians, which is atrocious, and Israel bombs those civilians, which is equally disdainful

The first is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

The second is not - in fact, any culpability for civilian casualties in that case belongs, according to law, with those who are doing the hiding.

While it might be objectionable to those who don't follow the Conventions, it's perfectly legal.

Simple – if you do not give full unconditional unquestioning devotion to Israel, the AIPAC lobby will, through everything from grassroots actions by its hundreds of members to expensive media campaigns, participate in the most underhanded mud-slinging campaigns possible until you have to spend so much of your time defending yourself against baseless assertions that you cannot get anything done.

They have no compunction against spending $15 million in a campaign to smear someone’s name with baseless accusations in an election year. That is too much for almost any congressman to match, and difficult for most senators as well. This is why they are a powerful lobby.


On the subject of aid: those stating that ‘but the US gives lots of aid to arabs as well so it is not one-sided’ are being willfully blind to the fact that the foreign aid going to Egypt and other nations is an outright bribe to tolerate Israeli behavior. Thus I consider that indirect aid to Israel as well.