NationStates Jolt Archive

I think denying the Holocaust is a morally despicable act, and fundamentally incorrect act for anyone who lives in the West. I can excuse people who live in the mid east who do it because they've been indoctrinated by their media's propaganda efforsts, and they can at least plead ignorance. HOWEVER, there should be no laws prohibiting the questioning of the Holocaust in ANY country, as this goes against the basics of free speech, and reduces those countries to the lowly status of the muslims who rioted because of some stupid cartoons.

Uh, I can think of at least 6 million reasons why denying the Holocaust should be illegal...

HOWEVER, there should be no laws prohibiting the questioning of the Holocaust in ANY country, as this goes against the basics of free speech, and reduces those countries to the lowly status of the muslims who rioted because of some stupid cartoons.

Its illegal to deny the Holocaust in Germany. Why?


Because the evidence is right the fuck there.

Free speech, yes. But not when the thing youre denying is right under your nose.

Stupid cartoons that did one of the worst things you can do in Islam: depict Muhammed. So its understandable.

I think questioning the Holocaust is a morally despicable act


I disagree. Questioning it is perfectly fine.

Coming to the conclusion that it didn't happen is not fine. When you question something you are obliged to look at the facts. When that happens there is no revionism possible...apart from Stormfront posters of course.

It is foolish to imply any kind of equivalence between questioning and denial. As is the case in science, questioning is the fundamental mechanism behind all historical inquiry. The crimes of Nazi Germany would be neither well known, nor given any sense of scale, were it not for questioning.

Get your terminology right.

Its illegal to deny the Holocaust in Germany. Why?


Because the evidence is right the fuck there.

Free speech, yes. But not when the thing youre denying is right under your nose.

Stupid cartoons that did one of the worst things you can do in Islam: depict Muhammed. So its understandable.
Free speech also means the freedom to be offended. If I wanted to say that we were all created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster 5 minutes, I should be allowed to make a ridiculous statement like that.

About the cartoons, you can make a play on Broadway about Jesus having sex with Judas, and get away with it. This no doubt offends many Christians, but you never see them rioting or issuing fatwas, do you?

Free speech also means the freedom to be offended. If I wanted to say that we were all created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster 5 minutes, I should be allowed to make a ridiculous statement like that.

About the cartoons, you can make a play on Broadway about Jesus having sex with Judas, and get away with it. This no doubt offends many Christians, but you never see them rioting or issuing fatwas, do you?
That's because the murderous nutjobs went from controlling Christianity to controlling Islam. Peaceful religion my ass.

Its illegal to deny the Holocaust in Germany. Why?

Maybe they dont want the truth getting out?

Seriously. People who claim to see UFOs dont get arrested. people who think Elvis is still alive dont get arrested. Deny the holocaust though and youre in for it. Why? Are they hiding something?

That's because the murderous nutjobs went from controlling Christianity to controlling Islam. Peaceful religion my ass.
yeah you could be right,
Like
freedom of speech is.

I think denying the Holocaust is a morally despicable act, and fundamentally incorrect act for anyone who lives in the West. I can excuse people who live in the mid east who do it because they've been indoctrinated by their media's propaganda efforsts, and they can at least plead ignorance. HOWEVER, there should be no laws prohibiting the questioning of the Holocaust in ANY country, as this goes against the basics of free speech, and reduces those countries to the lowly status of the muslims who rioted because of some stupid cartoons.

Its illegal to deny the holocaust for the same reason that slander and libel are illegal. It is a lie.

I think denying the Holocaust is a morally despicable act, and fundamentally incorrect act for anyone who lives in the West. I can excuse people who live in the mid east who do it because they've been indoctrinated by their media's propaganda efforsts, and they can at least plead ignorance. HOWEVER, there should be no laws prohibiting the questioning of the Holocaust in ANY country, as this goes against the basics of free speech, and reduces those countries to the lowly status of the muslims who rioted because of some stupid cartoons.

Its illegal to deny the holocaust for the same reason that slander and libel are illegal. It is a lie. And not just any lie, a lie that deforms and reconfigures the entire of jewish history between 1945 and to today.

That's because the murderous nutjobs went from controlling Christianity to controlling Islam. Peaceful religion my ass.

Thank you Mr. Robertson, Now if you could please go back to the 700 club forum?

I think denying the Holocaust is a morally despicable act, and fundamentally incorrect act for anyone who lives in the West. I can excuse people who live in the mid east who do it because they've been indoctrinated by their media's propaganda efforsts, and they can at least plead ignorance. HOWEVER, there should be no laws prohibiting the questioning of the Holocaust in ANY country, as this goes against the basics of free speech, and reduces those countries to the lowly status of the muslims who rioted because of some stupid cartoons.

Its illegal to deny the holocaust for the same reason that slander and libel are illegal. It is a lie. And not just any lie, a lie that deforms and reconfigures the entire of jewish history between 1945 and to today.

Its despicable for the same reason that faking the Jenin massacre was dispicable

one of the main reasons the germans ban holocaust denial is to try and make it more difficult to organise a neo-nazi party, who of course deny the event, claiming no gas chambers, just some people dying from overwork etc. so its not as simple as a free speech discussion, but a mechanism to help ensure that the nazi's never rear their head in any organised capacity again. its not because its a lie per say

im interested as to the timing of this thread.

im more interested in a poll about whether the holocaust justifies israeli actions today....

Its illegal to deny the holocaust for the same reason that slander and libel are illegal. It is a lie. And not just any lie, a lie that deforms and reconfigures the entire of jewish history between 1945 and to today.

Its despicable for the same reason that faking the Jenin massacre was dispicable

the evidence overwhelmingly back that claim up, but I don't think questioning the holocaust should be Illegal I'm fairly sure the 1st amendent covers it.

Uh, I can think of at least 6 million reasons why denying the Holocaust should be illegal...

Plus the all the other people, including but not limited to:
-Homosexuals
-Political Activists
-Reporters
-Teachers
-Students

the evidence overwhelmingly back that claim up, but I don't think questioning the holocaust should be Illegal I'm fairly sure the 1st amendent covers it.
the first admenment is not in use,what is disturbing however ,is to see people using the holocaust as an excuse in the middle east,for politic aim.
That is dangerous and will comdamne more people to suffering than the denial will ever do.

Making Holocaust denial illegal is dangerous; it victimizes the Holocaust deniers and makes their ideology even more attractive to those of an antigovernment bent because it becomes a crusade against a repressive government rather than just a hateful lie.

Plus the all the other people, including but not limited to:
-Homosexuals
-Political Activists
-Reporters
-Teachers
-Students

Yeah, that's why I used the words 'at least'; wasn't sure of the total numbers.

The point is, that it happened, and people who deny it, despite overwhelming evidence and first-hand accounts, deny it for the sake of re-building a vile and disgusting legacy. Abstact notions of freedom of speech, while very important, should consider the fact that the party that brought the holocaust to Europe rose to power on similar lies and propaganda; and it should never happen again.

Uh, I can think of at least 6 million reasons why denying the Holocaust should be illegal...


11 million people died in the holocaust dumbass, 6 million is only the jewish faction of the dead. Are you implying that Jews are more important then the other 5 million?

11 million people died in the holocaust dumbass, 6 million is only the jewish faction of the dead. Are you implying that Jews are more important then the other 5 million?

At least 6 million people died.

That's the lowest generally accepted total for the number of victims; they run from around 6 million to over 12 million or even higher.

At least 6 million people died.

That's the lowest generally accepted total for the number of victims; they run from around 6 million to over 12 million or even higher.
the number is not important,the "why" is far mor dangerous
And i think this thread could be a taboo breaker one
Inclusif the denial, and the use of those millions who died.

At least 6 million people died.

That's the lowest generally accepted total for the number of victims; they run from around 6 million to over 12 million or even higher.

No 6 million is the generally accepted number of Jewish people that died in the holocaust, and even that is fought and tugged about, some say more , some say less.

But the accepted overall dead are averaged to 11 million, counting gypsies, government enemies, Soviet prisoners, resistance fighters, dissenters, regime oppositing(traitors if you like) , Christian clergy (in particular catholic), homosexuals, slavs, and various other denominations all thrown into the camps and exterminated.

the number is not important,the "why" is far mor dangerous
And i think this thread could be a taboo breaker one
Inclusif the denial, and the use of those millions who died.

I think the families of all those killed might offer an argument to that sentiment.

Maybe they dont want the truth getting out?

Seriously. People who claim to see UFOs dont get arrested. people who think Elvis is still alive dont get arrested. Deny the holocaust though and youre in for it. Why? Are they hiding something?How many people got killed by UFOs? How many people got killed by Elvis? False analogies, my friend.

11 million people died in the holocaust dumbass, 6 million is only the jewish faction of the dead. Are you implying that Jews are more important then the other 5 million?

No, I was implying that I only knew the numbers of Jews that died. It's a much more publicized number.

If 6 million reasons aren't enough, I suppose 11 million reasons wouldn't be much better.

Making Holocaust denial illegal is dangerous; it victimizes the Holocaust deniers and makes their ideology even more attractive to those of an antigovernment bent because it becomes a crusade against a repressive government rather than just a hateful lie.If that were true, I would have noticed it, considering that Holocaust denial has been legal long enough for effects to take hold ;)

I think the families of all those killed might offer an argument to that sentiment.Indeed, however he is right. The victims need to be remembered, but what good does that do us if we don't use the knowledge we gained to prevent a "civilized" country from turning to industrial murder of dissidents and minorities?

I think the families of all those killed might offer an argument to that sentiment.
i think they remember it as a flaw,we and a lot of them let it go,and you know what?
it will happen again

Uh, I can think of at least 6 million reasons why denying the Holocaust should be illegal...
Because if a bunch of spoiled Goths who Hitler would have personally shot thought the head decide to be deluded fucktards, that means the holocaust will happen again.

The idea of denying the holocaust seems utterly ridiculous. When you say "It didn't happen", you're wrong, as the remaining sites and the lists of names show. It's that simple.

But it's not illegal to be wrong. For sections of our society to hold a truth to be false indicates a failing in our education system, not a legal or moral failing on their part.

What's the Holocaut?

The idea of denying the holocaust seems utterly ridiculous. When you say "It didn't happen", you're wrong, as the remaining sites and the lists of names show. It's that simple.

But it's not illegal to be wrong. For sections of our society to hold a truth to be false indicates a failing in our education system, not a legal or moral failing on their part.

Holocaust denial is a tactic that Neo-Nazi groups use to attract followers. They claim that the Holocaust was a greatly exagerated myth perpetrated by the Allies in order to further their own ends. The 'funny' thing is, that most of these groups will deny the holocaust, but will say that it 'should have happened'. Makes you wonder why they even bother denying it...

The point is, that a lot of people who lived through it, won't be around much longer. Decades from now, how hard would it be for some enterprising demagogue to claim that all of the physical evidence (ie - photographs, etc.) was false? What if some neo-Hitler wanted to create a fascist state, and the law let him say whatever ridiculous shit that he wanted to, in order to get elected? It's much harder to get rid of a dictator once they're in power.

No, some problems should be stopped before they happen.

The point is, that a lot of people who lived through it, won't be around much longer. Decades from now, how hard would it be for some enterprising demagogue to claim that all of the physical evidence (ie - photographs, etc.) was false? What if some neo-Hitler wanted to create a fascist state, and the law let him say whatever ridiculous shit that he wanted to, in order to get elected? It's much harder to get rid of a dictator once they're in power.

No, some problems should be stopped before they happen.
Preventing people to say what they want is the first step to oppression and facism. You would trade your freedoms for the illusion of security? Especially since we're talking about something that's going to happen sooner or later (Western government WILL become totalitarian again, it' just a question of when), illegalizing the right to claim that something does not exist is ridiculous.

I think I'll start a campaign denying the existence of the Nazi Party.

I think I'll start a campaign denying the existence of the Nazi Party.
The Nazi Party? Never heard of 'em...

I think I'll start a campaign denying the existence of the Nazi Party.That's how they came into power in the first place :(

That's how they came into power in the first place :(
by denying they are exist? this is high-level philosphy

by denying they are exist? this is high-level philosphyThe danger they posed was ignored or considered something that could be handled. It helped them come to power.

Making Holocaust denial illegal is dangerous; it victimizes the Holocaust deniers and makes their ideology even more attractive to those of an antigovernment bent because it becomes a crusade against a repressive government rather than just a hateful lie.

I think the logic you are using here is faulty. Those who deny the holocaust are in error. There can be no argument about that. They deny the holocaust in order to further an anti-Jewish/Communist/Socialist/anything they don't agree with POLITICAL view.

Having stood in Oscwezim (Auschwitz) and been based at the British Hohne Barracks, the ex-SS camp for the Bergen-Belsen camp, I can quite categorically say that the holocaust happened. My Great Uncle liberated Bergen-Belsen so we even have his diaries for an apolitical viewpoint.

The Nazi Party? Never heard of 'em...

There just isn't enough evidence they ever existed. I'm not surprised you hadn't heard of them.

Holocaust denial is a tactic that Neo-Nazi groups use to attract followers. They claim that the Holocaust was a greatly exagerated myth perpetrated by the Allies in order to further their own ends. The 'funny' thing is, that most of these groups will deny the holocaust, but will say that it 'should have happened'. Makes you wonder why they even bother denying it...

The point is, that a lot of people who lived through it, won't be around much longer. Decades from now, how hard would it be for some enterprising demagogue to claim that all of the physical evidence (ie - photographs, etc.) was false? What if some neo-Hitler wanted to create a fascist state, and the law let him say whatever ridiculous shit that he wanted to, in order to get elected? It's much harder to get rid of a dictator once they're in power.

No, some problems should be stopped before they happen.
Hence, education. This needs to be fully documented and passed on to successive generations. Right now, it is us who know about it that bear the responsibility to pass it on and make the truth of it known. Yes, that burden will fall onto other people later, but right now we cannot toss aside the ignorant for what they have not been made aware of. Instead, we need to combat and challenge that ignorance directly with the overwhelming evidence we have and by preserving that evidence so that others may also know what we do.

The danger they posed was ignored or considered something that could be handled. It helped them come to power.
it was more ignorance than denial, but I get your point.

Preventing people to say what they want is the first step to oppression and facism. You would trade your freedoms for the illusion of security? Especially since we're talking about something that's going to happen sooner or later (Western government WILL become totalitarian again, it' just a question of when), illegalizing the right to claim that something does not exist is ridiculous.

There's a difference between being prevented from speaking ill of the government, and speaking ill of a whole demographic of that same nation for the purpose of getting into power for the sake of removing that demographic.

By that analogy, I suppose you think it's okay for media to invent any lie they want to, because making those lies 'illegal' would be infringing upon their freedom of press?

A functional, reasonable society often wrestles with limiting some freedoms in order to protect other freedoms. In this case, denying the holocaust is one freedom that should be repressed to prevent the rise of a group who would be tempted to recreate it.

Your freedom ends at the next person's nose; and if your freedom puts that next person's nose in an oven, then too bad for your freedom.

you see,the point is not if it happens,but why it happens.
The point of denying is shit.

let them speak


the way it is use,is innapropriate
like i said millons died,it will happen again.

the evidence overwhelmingly back that claim up, but I don't think questioning the holocaust should be Illegal I'm fairly sure the 1st amendent covers it.

Thats quite rediculous then. By that logic people could legitamately teach in history that the holocoust did not happen

Hence, education. This needs to be fully documented and passed on to successive generations. Right now, it is us who know about it that bear the responsibility to pass it on and make the truth of it known. Yes, that burden will fall onto other people later, but right now we cannot toss aside the ignorant for what they have not been made aware of. Instead, we need to combat and challenge that ignorance directly with the overwhelming evidence we have and by preserving that evidence so that others may also know what we do.

You're right, education is important. But what if 40, 50 years from now, people start claiming that the Holocaust is 'just a theory', and Holocaust Denial should be taught alongside the Holocaust in schools?

Thats quite rediculous then. By that logic people could legitamately teach in history that the holocoust did not happen

Beat me to it.

You're right, education is important. But what if 40, 50 years from now, people start claiming that the Holocaust is 'just a theory', and Holocaust Denial should be taught alongside the Holocaust in schools?
at that time it will be harder to fight it since the "living evidences" won't stay at live as most of their second generation.

Thats quite rediculous then. By that logic people could legitamately teach in history that the holocoust did not happen
How? There are plenty of legal opinions that aren't taught in school as it is.

I'm just glad that the first amendment still means something in the USA, unlike a great deal of the rest of the constitution.

There's a difference between being prevented from speaking ill of the government, and speaking ill of a whole demographic of that same nation for the purpose of getting into power for the sake of removing that demographic.

By that analogy, I suppose you think it's okay for media to invent any lie they want to, because making those lies 'illegal' would be infringing upon their freedom of press?

A functional, reasonable society often wrestles with limiting some freedoms in order to protect other freedoms. In this case, denying the holocaust is one freedom that should be repressed to prevent the rise of a group who would be tempted to recreate it.

Your freedom ends at the next person's nose; and if your freedom puts that next person's nose in an oven, then too bad for your freedom.
Meh. I disagree with you, but whatever I say isn't going to convince you otherwise, so you win.

Meh. I disagree with you, but whatever I say isn't going to convince you otherwise, so you win.

LOL. I'm not trying to 'win' anything. I'm very vocal about freedom of expression, and freedom of the press (having been a student of journalism once myself). However, any reasonable society is going to take certain freedom-restricting efforts for the betterment of society. Denying the Holocaust is irresponsible, and potentially dangerous.

Making the Denial illegal, isn't much different than making slanderous and libelous comments illegal.

if history can not teach us ,why it happens,we are doom,
i say no TABOOS
Even if it means remembering the pain and the suffering.
Why will it happen again?
Hell ,3/4 of ALL people didn't gave a fuck

You're right, education is important. But what if 40, 50 years from now, people start claiming that the Holocaust is 'just a theory', and Holocaust Denial should be taught alongside the Holocaust in schools?
Hopefully in 50 years' time the extremists will have gotten themselves killed. Such is the wonder of memetic evolution. :D

Knowledge and belief in the holocaust is a socially stable strategy; it gives us a reminder that simple prejudice can go far too far with relatively little prompting. That the way society works should become so twisted towards the individual as to render that idea a relative theory would indicate a far deeper failing on our part than a simple issue in passing on knowledge.

if history can not teach us ,why it happens,we are doom,
i say no TABOOS
Even if it means remembering the pain and the suffering.
Why will it happen again?
Hell ,3/4 of ALL people didn't gave a fuck
We are doom?!
AHHHH!!! I'm doom!!! :eek:

I think denying the Holocaust is a morally despicable act, and fundamentally incorrect act for anyone who lives in the West. I can excuse people who live in the mid east who do it because they've been indoctrinated by their media's propaganda efforsts, and they can at least plead ignorance. HOWEVER, there should be no laws prohibiting the questioning of the Holocaust in ANY country, as this goes against the basics of free speech, and reduces those countries to the lowly status of the muslims who rioted because of some stupid cartoons.

'Morally despicable'?

I think that depends more on why they deny it? Is it out of a genuine academic skepticism, or is it out of a deliberate attempt to cover, or rewrite the past? Or worse, is it an attempt to deflect sympathy toward the jewish community by trying to cloak the truth?

There's nothing wrong with academic skepticism, though I have to wonder what kind of cynic could still be unconvinced that while specific numbers may be debatable, that the holocaust happened and a tremendous number of innocent people were imprisoned or slaughtered because they were jewish, gypsy or homosexual.

Hopefully in 50 years' time the extremists will have gotten themselves killed. Such is the wonder of memetic evolution. :D

WWII ended 1945. It's been well over 50 years since then. It will only be easier to deny it in another 50.

All you Holocaust deniers out there: I deny your existance! Until you can "prove" your so-called "existance" to us with independant "evidence," I consider you nonexistant :D