NationStates Jolt Archive

Israel apparently launched a large offensive in Southern lebanon using 10,000 troops and a ton of armor. It appears they caught a few Hezz in a hospital and took them prisoner.

Prisoner swap for the captured IDF soldiers? Sounds good. They're working on it....

Israel seizes guerrillas in Lebanon raid By HUSSEIN DAKROUB, Associated Press Writer
14 minutes ago



BEIRUT, Lebanon - Israel poured up to 10,000 armored troops into south Lebanon Tuesday, and separately sent commandos deep into the eastern Bekaa Valley where they raided a Hezbollah-run hospital and captured guerrillas during pitched battles, a major escalation of the three-week-old war.

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The Israeli military confirmed the attack on the ancient city of Baalbek, about 80 miles north of Israel. It said troops, ferried in by helicopter, captured an unspecified number guerrillas and all soldiers returned unharmed. The statement gave no other details.

The Baalbek raid was the deepest ground attack on Lebanon since fighting began 21 days ago.

The ferocity of the battles in the Bekaa Valley and across southern Lebanon and the determination of the Israelis to keep fighting quelled expectations for an early cease-fire, although U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said an agreement on how to end the conflict was possible within days, not weeks.

Hezbollah's rocket attacks into Israel, meanwhile, diminished. Hezbollah fired just 10 rockets across the border Tuesday, well below an average of about 100 a day since fighting began.

Early Wednesday, Hezbollah's chief spokesman Hussein Rahal told The Associated Press Israeli troops landed near the Hezbollah-run Dar al-Hikma Hospital in Baalbek, about 10 miles from Lebanon's border with Syria.

"A group of Israeli commandos was brought to the hospital by a helicopter. They entered the hospital and are trapped inside as our fighters opened fire on them, and fierce fighting is still raging," Rahal said early in the operation.

Rahal dismissed as "untrue" reports that the Israeli commandos managed to snatch some patients from the hospital and spirit them away in helicopters.

Fighting between Israeli commandos and Hezbollah guerrillas around the hospital raged for more than four hours and planes dropped flares over the city during the clashes, witnesses said.

They said at least five people were killed as Israeli warplanes staged more than 10 bombing runs around the hospital as well as on hills in east and north Baalbek where Hezbollah's Shiite supporters live.

Witnesses said the hospital was hit in an Israeli airstrike and was burning.

The fighting ended at about 4 a.m.

Residents said the Dar al-Hikma hospital is financed by an Iranian charity, the Imam Khomeini Charitable Society, which is close to Hezbollah. The hospital is also run by people close to the Shiite militant group, the residents said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation.

Baalbek, about 10 miles from the Syrian border, is a city with spectacular Roman ruins as well as the barracks of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards when they trained Hezbollah guerrillas there in the 1980s.

The last time Israel forces were known to have gone that far on the ground into Lebanon was in 1994, when they abducted Lebanese guerrilla leader Mustafa Dirani, hoping to use him to get information about missing Israeli airman Ron Arad. Dirani was released in a prisoner exchange 10 years later.

Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers in a July 12 cross-border raid triggered the Israeli offensive.

In southern Lebanon on Tuesday, up to 10,000 troops in armored personnel carriers and backed by tanks were operating in Lebanon along the border zone, Israeli defense officials said. Israel called up 30,000 reservists over the weekend and thousands of them were gathering at staging areas on the Israeli side of the border, ready to join the battles.

Israel had 100,000 troops in Lebanon at the height of its 1982 invasion of Lebanon that began an 18-year occupation of the south.

Troops battled guerrillas after Israel ordered its army to punch all the way to the Litani River, about 18 miles from the border.

They entered through four different points along the border and moved at least four miles inside Lebanon. Israeli officials said their soldiers were to go as far as the Litani, and hold the ground until an international peacekeeping force comes ashore.

But the army later said it had distributed leaflets northeast of the river at villages where Hezbollah was active. The leaflets told people to leave, suggesting that the new offensive could take Israeli soldiers even deeper into Lebanon.

Despite mounting civilian deaths, President Bush held fast to support for Israel and was pressing for a U.N. resolution linking a cease-fire with a broader plan for peace in the Middle East. Staking out a different approach, European Union foreign ministers called for an "immediate cessation of hostilities" followed by efforts to agree on a sustainable cease-fire.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said he expects some action in the Security Council in the coming days, hopefully this week.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said it was not in Israel's interest to agree to an immediate cease-fire because every day of fighting weakens the guerrillas.

"Every additional day is a day that drains the strength of this cruel enemy," he said. "Every extra day is a day in which the (army) reduces their capability, contains their firing ability and their ability to hit in the future."

The Israelis want to keep Hezbollah off the border so their patrols and civilians along the fence are not in danger of attack. The army also hopes to push Hezbollah far enough north so that most of the guerrillas' rockets cannot reach the Jewish state.

Israel resumed sporadic airstrikes — hitting Hezbollah strongholds and supply lines from one end of Lebanon to the other — despite a pledge to suspend such attacks for another day in response to world outrage over the killing of 56 Lebanese in a weekend bombing.

Aid groups had hoped to take advantage of the supposed 48-hour lull in airstrikes to get food and medicine to civilians trapped in the south. But Israel denied access to two U.N. convoys. Others who made the journey described airstrikes close to their convoys, and bodies along the road.

At nightfall Tuesday, Israeli troops were fighting Hezbollah at several points along the border in intense ground battles. Reporters and Arab television reported especially heavy fighting and Israeli artillery bombardment at the village of Aita al-Shaab.

The Israeli army said late Tuesday that three Israeli soldiers died and 25 were slightly wounded by small arms fire and anti-tank rockets in Aita al-Shaab.

Israeli Cabinet Minister Haim Ramon said the fighting to date had killed about 300 of Hezbollah's main force of 2,000 fighters, which does not include its less-well trained reserves. "That's a very hard blow," he said.

Hezbollah has said only 46 of its fighters were killed. Four were lost in battles with Israeli ground troops in Adaisse and Taibeh, near the Christian town of Marjayoun, about five miles from the border with Israel, Hezbollah said.

To the east at Kfar Kila, reporters saw at least three airstrikes, and the thud of artillery shells from Israeli ground troops was constant. About 20 shells landed in the hills around Kfar Kila during a 45-minute period.

Israeli jet fighters also struck deep inside Lebanese territory, hitting Hermel, 75 miles north of the Israeli border in the Bekaa Valley.

In the west, Israeli warships fired artillery into the villages of Mansouri, Shamaa and Teir Harfan around the port city of Tyre. No casualties were reported.

Another strike at an area near the Syrian border, about six miles north of Hermel, targeted the Qaa-Homs road, one of four official crossing points between Lebanon and Syria. Two of the four border crossings are now closed because of damage, and repeated airstrikes have made the main Beirut-Damascus highway impassable.

Polls in Israel show wall-to-wall support for Israel's fight against Hezbollah, even with Israeli civilians enduring a barrage of rocket fire and the army poised for a sweeping ground offensive that is sure to lead to more casualties.

But the deaths of 56 Lebanese in the devastating weekend strike in Qana focused attention on civilian casualties.

Three more civilians were killed and three seriously wounded when Israeli warplanes hit a house in the southern Lebanese town of Lweizeh, Lebanese security officials said Tuesday.

Also, the Lebanese Red Cross said the bodies of 12 civilians were retrieved from the rubble of buildings destroyed in airstrikes on four villages in southern Lebanon and many more were believed still buried. It was not clear when the victims were killed.

At least 532 Lebanese have been killed, including 461 civilians and 25 Lebanese soldiers and at least 46 Hezbollah guerrillas. The health minister says the toll could be as high as 750, including those still buried in rubble or missing. Fifty-four Israelis have died — 36 soldiers as well as 18 civilians killed in Hezbollah rocket attacks.

___

Was watching al-Jazeera this morning.

Hezbollah denies having taken any casualties to its fighters, or having any of its members taken captive.

They also added that every IDF soldier they've killed was shot in the back, because they were running away.

The Hizbullah guy sounded as comical as the Iraqi Information Minister.

Was watching al-Jazeera this morning.

Hezbollah denies having taken any casualties to its fighters, or having any of its members taken captive.

They also added that every IDF soldier they've killed was shot in the back, because they were running away.

The Hizbullah guy sounded as comical as the Iraqi Information Minister.

Yeah, we're stil waiting for that trap at Baghdad Airport:D

Yeah, we're stil waiting for that trap at Baghdad Airport:D
Baghdad Bob: I assure you the Cubs won the World Series. There is no Chicago White Sox. They are defeated infidels. Lon live the Cubs! Allah be praised they are the greatest.

Yeah, we're stil waiting for that trap at Baghdad Airport:D
Baghdad Bob: I assure you the Cubs won the World Series. There no such thing as the Chicago White Sox. They are defeated infidels. Long live the Cubs! Allah be praised they are the greatest. Oh, and Wrigley Field is NOT a gay bar.

Was watching al-Jazeera this morning.

Hezbollah denies having taken any casualties to its fighters, or having any of its members taken captive.

They also added that every IDF soldier they've killed was shot in the back, because they were running away.

The Hizbullah guy sounded as comical as the Iraqi Information Minister.

Anyone who takes the kind of pounding that Hezbollah is receiving, is most definitely going to take casualties. Sad part is, people will actually believe what Hezbollah is saying.

Yeah, we're stil waiting for that trap at Baghdad Airport:D


Oh, those were the good days!

Does anyone remember that welovetheiraqiminister dot com thingie?

Oh, those were the good days!

Does anyone remember that welovetheiraqiminister dot com thingie?

I do remember that. I also remember a soldier's comment in regards to not being in Baghdad. "We were thinking of going next door, knocking on the door, and introduce ourselves as your new neighbors." Classic.

I do remember that. I also remember a soldier's comment in regards to not being in Baghdad. "We were thinking of going next door, knocking on the door, and introduce ourselves as your new neighbors." Classic.


I have to admit that at that time, for just one second, I actually believed that the whole Iraq war wasn't an error at all.

Long live Myrth!

Anyone who takes the kind of pounding that Hezbollah is receiving, is most definitely going to take casualties. Sad part is, people will actually believe what Hezbollah is saying.

Apart from a few lebonese, I really dont think anyone will beleive that Hizbollah statement.

Apart from a few lebonese, I really dont think anyone will beleive that Hizbollah statement.

You'd be surprised what some people will believe.

I never knew that Israel would sink as low as to raiding a hospital...

Apart from a few lebonese, I really dont think anyone will beleive that Hizbollah statement.
I don't know about that. There are plenty of Arabs, and even some Westerners (who should know better) who claim Al Qaeda had nothing to do with 9/11 and that it was all a zionist/neocon plot. Many Arabs and, regrettably, some westerners will always be prepared to believe that Israel is both a ruthlessly effective terrorist state and at the same time an incompetent and cowardly nation that a handfull of armed Arabs can defeat.

Komyunizumu']I never knew that Israel would sink as low as to raiding a hospital...

What's low about it?

Hezbollah uses hospitals as military headquarters. Firing positions, et al.

That automatically removes any protected status that the site may have.

As an example, when you show up at a US field hospital, there are strict rules on who can even carry a weapon on site - just the guards for defending the place. It's a war crime to use it as a tactical headquarters, or to house a fighting unit that isn't 100% wounded.

Violate the rules, and it's a war crime. Period.

And so Israel's way of dealing with the Terrorists while trying to keep loss of life to a minimum is to drop bombs on it? You can't drop bombs on a hospital because there are some Terrorists in it.

Komyunizumu']And so Israel's way of dealing with the Terrorists while trying to keep loss of life to a minimum is to drop bombs on it? You can't drop bombs on a hospital because there are some Terrorists in it.

No but you can if it is a known weapons platform or that they are taking fire from it.

Komyunizumu']And so Israel's way of dealing with the Terrorists while trying to keep loss of life to a minimum is to drop bombs on it? You can't drop bombs on a hospital because there are some Terrorists in it.

Yes, you can. And the casualties, by the Fourth Geneva Convention, are the fault of the people who used the hospital to hide.

You can also execute anyone who gave the order to do so, on the basis that they are using human shields, which is a war crime.

Komyunizumu']I never knew that Israel would sink as low as to raiding a hospital...
It's a valid move. As long as they don't shoot the wounded or medic staff, they can take over.

You'd be surprised what some people will believe.

*Looks for Occeandrives next thread*

It's a beautiful thing :D

Props to the IDF.

Its a Hezb'allah hospital, not civilian. There are no civilian casualties there.

I don't believe the claim of Hezb'allah that "We haven't lost any men!!!!" any more than I believe the IDF's claim of "We've killed 200 Hezb'allah".

As for the OP, big whoopie. I'm sure that has brought the conflict oh so close to its conclusion.

you would swear reading this thread form the keyboard 101st that Isreal was actually winning this spat :rolleyes:

23 days in, largest ground attack on Hezbollah's home town and what happens? Hezbollah launch more missiles further into Israel than ever before!!

yeah. owned :D

you would swear reading this thread form the keyboard 101st that Isreal was actually winning this spat :rolleyes:

23 days in, largest ground attack on Hezbollah's home town and what happens? Hezbollah launch more missiles further into Israel than ever before!!

yeah. owned :D

Not exactly a good thing, you know.

you would swear reading this thread form the keyboard 101st that Isreal was actually winning this spat :rolleyes:

23 days in, largest ground attack on Hezbollah's home town and what happens? Hezbollah launch more missiles further into Israel than ever before!!

yeah. owned :D

You would think that from you, that Hezbollah had not taken a single casualty...

Yes, Hezbollah is forced to fire missiles, because that's all they have.

And when those run out...

They are effectively "out of supply" which means that their storage areas are being destroyed, and their routes of supply for these rockets have been cut off.

Right now, the Israelis are just pinching off concentrations of Hezbollah, and forcing them to fight to the death.

The LAST thing a guerilla group should do is engage in an out-and-out fight with a conventional force. They may have an occasional reason to cheer, but in the end, the result is disaster.

There are going to be a LOT fewer people in Hezbollah after this is over.

Oh, and about the 101st. I was in the 2/502nd Infantry (101st Air Assault) and while there, I had a great time.

You're the one too busy xeroxing leaflets at Kinko's to hand out at the next anti-war rally to go and join the people you love in their struggle - why you never have lifted a finger in the struggle you support is a level of cowardice and weenieness that none of us will ever match.

You would think that from you, that Hezbollah had not taken a single casualty...

Yes, Hezbollah is forced to fire missiles, because that's all they have.

And when those run out...

They are effectively "out of supply" which means that their storage areas are being destroyed, and their routes of supply for these rockets have been cut off.

Right now, the Israelis are just pinching off concentrations of Hezbollah, and forcing them to fight to the death.

The LAST thing a guerilla group should do is engage in an out-and-out fight with a conventional force. They may have an occasional reason to cheer, but in the end, the result is disaster.

There are going to be a LOT fewer people in Hezbollah after this is over.

Oh, and about the 101st. I was in the 2/502nd Infantry (101st Air Assault) and while there, I had a great time.

You're the one too busy xeroxing leaflets at Kinko's to hand out at the next anti-war rally to go and join the people you love in their struggle - why you never have lifted a finger in the struggle you support is a level of cowardice and weenieness that none of us will ever match.

and when the keyboard 101st resort to this level of personalised invective I know nerves have been hit.

the smilies were at the moron military analyists on this site. absolute tulips.

out of supply. right, keep telling yourselves that. Isreal forced them to fire stockpiled missiles out of desperation. war is peace.

I believe that both sides should stop with the petty name calling. It does nothing for debate but causes anger.

and when the keyboard 101st resort to this level of personalised invective I know nerves have been hit.


Well, at least you admit you're a troll.

You wouldn't say that to my face, I know you're that cowardly.

you would swear reading this thread form the keyboard 101st that Isreal was actually winning this spat :rolleyes:

23 days in, largest ground attack on Hezbollah's home town and what happens? Hezbollah launch more missiles further into Israel than ever before!!

yeah. owned :D
So you're rooting for the folks who endorse Iranian-style Islamic government for Lebanon and, if possible, elsewhere? If so I hope you end up in front of an Islamic court accused of crimes against chastity like that 16 year old girl who was recently hanged in Iran for being raped.

You would think that from you, that Hezbollah had not taken a single casualty...

Yes, Hezbollah is forced to fire missiles, because that's all they have.

And when those run out...

They are effectively "out of supply" which means that their storage areas are being destroyed, and their routes of supply for these rockets have been cut off.

They have enough to last them at their current rate for about a 100 days at a conservative estimate. (I got the number from doing the maths: they had roughly 17,000 missiles according to some. Firing at a rate of approx 100 a day...)

Thats enough to cause a lot of civilian casualties amongst the innocents on the Israeli side.
Right now, the Israelis are just pinching off concentrations of Hezbollah, and forcing them to fight to the death.

The LAST thing a guerilla group should do is engage in an out-and-out fight with a conventional force. They may have an occasional reason to cheer, but in the end, the result is disaster.

There are going to be a LOT fewer people in Hezbollah after this is over.

For now. In less than a decade you'll see the current angry generation start this again. Memories last a lifetime.

Well, at least you admit you're a troll.

You wouldn't say that to my face, I know you're that cowardly.

you know fuck all about me. and if thats your level of military analysis, you know fuck all about that too.

seriously, Israel are winning? :p

keep it up, its light relief in a serious situation

So you're rooting for the folks who endorse Iranian-style Islamic government for Lebanon and, if possible, elsewhere? If so I hope you end up in front of an Islamic court accused of crimes against chastity like that 16 year old girl who was recently hanged in Iran for being raped.

The SR and OceanDrive and East of Eden is Nod are all cheering on every Islamic terrorist, hoping that they destroy everything we live for.

They can't wait. Of course, they can't be bothered to actually support the people they cheer for by actually doing anything - quite unlike some of us who have gone downrange and put some people in the dirt.

you know fuck all about me. and if thats your level of military analysis, you know fuck all about that too.

seriously, Israel are winning? :p

keep it up, its light relief in a serious situation
Knock off the baiting. It doesn't help debate.

you know fuck all about me. and if thats your level of military analysis, you know fuck all about that too.

seriously, Israel are winning? :p

keep it up, its light relief in a serious situation

What makes you think that they are not indeed winning? Because Hezbollah says they are not?

The SR and OceanDrive and East of Eden is Nod are all cheering on every Islamic terrorist, hoping that they destroy everything we live for.

They can't wait. Of course, they can't be bothered to actually support the people they cheer for by actually doing anything - quite unlike some of us who have gone downrange and put some people in the dirt.
Well, I've never gone downrange or put anyone in the dirt, but I know which side is liberal enough to pretty much leave me alone to make my own decisions and which side wants me to stop drinking and face mecca five times per day.

you would swear reading this thread form the keyboard 101st that Isreal was actually winning this spat :rolleyes:

23 days in, largest ground attack on Hezbollah's home town and what happens? Hezbollah launch more missiles further into Israel than ever before!!

yeah. owned :D

Ah,yes, the missiles that have been and are being fired against Isreali civilian population centers.

The missiles that have been supplied by Syria and Iran in opposition to UN resolutions.

Why not the same vitriol?

Well, I've never gone downrange or put anyone in the dirt, but I know which side is liberal enough to pretty much leave me alone to make my own decisions and which side wants me to stop drinking and face mecca five times per day.

Well, you live in a country where we're liberal enough to let you listen to the music of your choice, watch porn 24/7, smoke, drink, and eat bacon, and enjoy seeing women at the beach.

The other guys want you to shoot women in beekeeper outfits, fuck goats and donkeys (can't tell you how frequently I saw this in Iraq), and blow yourself up in a crowded market for fun.

The SR and OceanDrive and East of Eden is Nod are all cheering on every Islamic terrorist, hoping that they destroy everything we live for.

They can't wait. Of course, they can't be bothered to actually support the people they cheer for by actually doing anything - quite unlike some of us who have gone downrange and put some people in the dirt.

grow up, i was commenting on the wishful nature of the cheerleading of the IDF on this thread. that doesnt make me 'cheer on every Islamic terrorist, hoping that they destroy everything we live for', whatever that grand statement means. it means i think you are analysing with your heart, not your head.

What makes you think that they are not indeed winning? Because Hezbollah says they are not?

23 days in and Hezbollah are MORE active, despite the IDF moving away from the aerial attackes towords special forces attacks. the IDF have abjectly failed to find and engage Hezbollah. its clear the intellegence was faulty, not knowing hezbollah had bunkers :confused:? or drones? mossad seem to have failed miserably to analyse hezbollah's capabilities.

the longer hezbollah go unbeaten, the less 'invincible' the IDF look and more vicious Isreal look. they walked straight into a carefully laid hezbollah trap.

They have enough to last them at their current rate for about a 100 days at a conservative estimate. (I got the number from doing the maths: they had roughly 17,000 missiles according to some. Firing at a rate of approx 100 a day...)

Thats enough to cause a lot of civilian casualties amongst the innocents on the Israeli side.
It's true they have a large amount of rockets. I'd estimate that 16,000 are probably the Ketyushas (which have short ranges.) If Israel or a UN force controls up to the Litani River, then the Ketyushas are useless as they would be falling within Lebanese territory at their longest range. That leaves them with less than 10% of their rockets usable for strikes. They are larger ones and easier to take out since they can't be hidden as easily as Ketyushas. They probably have fewer of the advances ones that I've guessed. That would explain why there are so few attacks on Haifa and Tiberias.

the longer hezbollah go unbeaten, the less 'invincible' the IDF look and more vicious Isreal look. they walked straight into a carefully laid hezbollah trap.

Actually, Hezbollah has said they are surprised by the whole thing.

It's not a "carefully laid trap". That's complete bullshit.

In a few weeks, you won't be laughing. And people will be dancing on Hezbollah corpses.

grow up, i was commenting on the wishful nature of the cheerleading of the IDF on this thread. that doesnt make me 'cheer on every Islamic terrorist, hoping that they destroy everything we live for', whatever that grand statement means. it means i think you are analysing with your heart, not your head.



23 days in and Hezbollah are MORE active, despite the IDF moving away from the aerial attackes towords special forces attacks. the IDF have abjectly failed to find and engage Hezbollah. its clear the intellegence was faulty, not knowing hezbollah had bunkers :confused:? or drones? mossad seem to have failed miserably to analyse hezbollah's capabilities.

the longer hezbollah go unbeaten, the less 'invincible' the IDF look and more vicious Isreal look. they walked straight into a carefully laid hezbollah trap.Um, 23 days in? Ground campaign only started recently, and it takes time to root out thousands of fighters hidden among the civilian population, especially since Israel has to fight the war with one hand tied behind it's back because the international community will otherwise call them butchers. Personally I think they're showing too much restraint and they should call Hezbollah's bluff. You hide among civilians, we slaughter all the civilians in order to kill you.

grow up

That is uncalled for.

Twenty-Three days in and Hezbollah are MORE active, despite the IDF moving away from the aerial attackes towords special forces attacks. the IDF have abjectly failed to find and engage Hezbollah.

First off, never start a sentence with a number. If you do, spell it out. Secondly, you are entirely incorrect that they have abjectly failed to find and engage Hezbollah. They have found them and have engaged them in battle, killing and capturing them in the combat zone.

Its clear the intellegence was faulty, not knowing hezbollah had bunkers :confused:? or drones? mossad seem to have failed miserably to analyse hezbollah's capabilities.

They knew they had bunkers SR. Even I knew they had bunkers. I would in there case. As to the drones, I will not comment on what I do not know anything about.

The longer Hezbollah go unbeaten, the less 'invincible' the IDF look and more vicious Isreal look. They walked straight into a carefully laid Hezbollah trap.

Maybe but how do you know that Hezbollah is not being beaten? After all it seems to me that Hezbollah has lost a couple of strongholds already and have now resorted to longer range rockets. Now why would they do that if they could still hit targets closer to the border? Seems to me that they are being pushed back which was one of the objectives of the IDF.

That is uncalled for.



First off, never start a sentence with a number. If you do, spell it out. Secondly, you are entirely incorrect that they have abjectly failed to find and engage Hezbollah. They have found them and have engaged them in battle, killing and capturing them in the combat zone.



They knew they had bunkers SR. Even I knew they had bunkers. I would in there case. As to the drones, I will not comment on what I do not know anything about.



Maybe but how do you know that Hezbollah is not being beaten? After all it seems to me that Hezbollah has lost a couple of strongholds already and have now resorted to longer range rockets. Now why would they do that if they could still hit targets closer to the border? Seems to me that they are being pushed back which was one of the objectives of the IDF.

then why wait till after the war starts to order 'bunker busters'?

regardless of who is 'winning' (and i never claimed hezbollah were), no-one expected hezbollah to put up quite the show they have, least of all the israelis. they are still as operationally capable today as they were 23 days ago. how could israel possibly be considered 'winning'?


got to go now, will return tomorrow to laugh at the internet commando's a bit more

then why wait till after the war starts to order 'bunker busters'?


They probably didn't believe that one of the bunkers was as deep as requires a GBU-28.


regardless of who is 'winning' (and i never claimed hezbollah were), no-one expected hezbollah to put up quite the show they have, least of all the israelis. they are still as operationally capable today as they were 23 days ago. how could israel possibly be considered 'winning'?

They can't move supplies from Syria - the road is destroyed, and anyone moving on it is hunted by aircraft. They can't move supplies in from the air - the airport is out of commission. They can't move supplies in from the sea - Israel has the sea cut off. So, tell me how Hezbollah is going to move rockets (rather large items) in from Syria or Iran to replace the ones they are firing (or have lost to bombardment)? How is that "still as operationally capable".

Freedom of movement is an excellent measure of "operational capability". The IDF can move into Hezbollah rear areas and conduct combat operations at will. Hezbollah cannot move into Israel and conduct combat operations at will - they only have unguided rockets. Hezbollah has no means to replenish the supply of rockets.

So, in that situation, every rocket they fire means one rocket closer to being out of ammunition.

And since the rockets are their only means of striking Israel, as soon as those are gone, they will essentially be disarmed.

Just as the IDF intended. Sounds like a winning strategy for the IDF for me.

Oh, and after the rockets are gone, an international force moves into southern Lebanon, and the Israelis go back to Israel, and Hezbollah, by the UN resolution, remains disarmed.

All good for the IDF. All a big ass-reaming for Hezbollah.

got to go now, will return tomorrow to laugh at the internet commando's a bit more

See you later, you terrorist wannabe.

then why wait till after the war starts to order 'bunker busters'?

And what makes you think they did not have any before?

regardless of who is 'winning' (and i never claimed hezbollah were), no-one expected hezbollah to put up quite the show they have, least of all the israelis. they are still as operationally capable today as they were 23 days ago. how could israel possibly be considered 'winning'?

For starters, they are being pushed back and have been losing ground to the IDF. Falling back is not a sign that you are winning a war. Continuous advancement is a mark of that and only Israel is moving forward while Hezbollah is moving backward. Also, the fact that they have resorted to their longer range missiles is also highly suspect. Why wait till now to pull those out? Well one can say that they have a limited number which is probably true but why wait to launch a massive missile attack now? One can say it is a desparation move by Hezbollah.

got to go now, will return tomorrow to laugh at the internet commando's a bit more

Well if they are internet commandos then that makes you one as well in reality.

A clear sign that Israel is winning as that the paratroopers in eastern Lebanon have pretty much hit the Hezbollah in their vulnerable flank where they don't have defenses built up. Hezbollah can't fight on multiple fronts in Lebanon.

A clear sign that Israel is winning as that the paratroopers in eastern Lebanon have pretty much hit the Hezbollah in their vulnerable flank where they don't have defenses built up. Hezbollah can't fight on multiple fronts in Lebanon.

When you can drop and retrieve infantry at will in the enemy's "strongholds" or rear, the enemy is in serious trouble.

When you can drop and retrieve infantry at will in the enemy's "strongholds" or rear, the enemy is in serious trouble.

That is indeed a true statement.

That is indeed a true statement.

It means:

a. The enemy has no anti-aircraft capability - not even much in the way of small arms to shoot at low-flying helicopters.
b. IDF helicopters are moving to specific, selected spots in the rear - which means they have the ability to conduct surveillance at will in the enemy's areas.
c. No movement by the enemy is therefore safe, or immune from attack - the IDF can put soldiers on any position at will.
d. That also means they can reinforce in the same manner, while the enemy cannot.
e. In such a manner, the IDF can conduct "continuous operations". That is, while the group of IDF infantry that is present at any one time attacking a Hezbollah stronghold may be outnumbered, it will be constantly replenished with new men, new ammunition, etc. Men who have just rested. The enemy will have no ability to rest, eat, tend the wounded, or conduct resupply. This sort of thing can wear you down to where you're fucked.

There are going to be a LOT fewer people in Hezbollah after this is over.
I'm not sure about this, due to the Israeli tactics and the destruction of Lebanese lives and infrastructure... I'll believe it when I see it.

got to go now, will return tomorrow to make up more "facts" and Isreal a bit more

Fixed.

Notice how the pro-hezbollah individual always dodge the fact about the illegal arms shipments and Hezbollah targeting Israeli civilians even before this started?

So you support the Hezbollah leaders claiming they shot Isreali soldiers in the back?

So you support the Hezbollah leaders claiming they shot Isreali soldiers in the back?
what did OD say before he deleted his post?

what did OD say before he deleted his post?

He started a new thread w/ the post.

He started a new thread w/ the post.

Exactly what I said he would do... Ocean is so predictable.

what did OD say before he deleted his post?He started a new thread w/ the post.Exactly what I said he would do... Ocean is so predictable.Interesting..

Just curious DK (I am not contesting anything)
where/when did you "predict" ?

Interesting..

Just curious DK (I am not contesting anything)
where/when did you "predict" ?
In your other thread.

Interesting..

Just curious DK (I am not contesting anything)
where/when did you "predict" ?
HE has posted in the past that your nature is to start a new anti-Israel thread once you get crushed in your previous one.

In your other thread.I see..

gives DK a cookie.
\\ going AFK \\

...once you get crushed in your previous one.My "other thread" applys perfectly to IDF.

(win or lose) IDF loves to claim victory. :rolleyes:

My "other thread" applys perfectly to IDF.

(win or lose) IDF loves to claim victory. :rolleyes:

You do have a habit of dodging questions. You by any chance a politician? They are good at it. By the way, by dodging questions, you lose the debate.

My "other thread" applys perfectly to IDF.

(win or lose) IDF loves to claim victory. :rolleyes:
When you ignore every question posed to you, it's quite easy to claim victory.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaahahahahahahahahab hezbollah got itd as kicked ....bwaaaaaaaaaahahahhahahhaahaha...




so what ?


I feel better but what did it actually do ?



show me more .

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaahahahahahahahahab hezbollah got itd as kicked ....bwaaaaaaaaaahahahhahahhaahaha...




so what ?


I feel better but what did it actually do ?



show me more .

Apparently their infrastructure is destroyed and they are doomed etc and so on. Why they are still able to fire large numbers of missiles into Israel (300 today) is a question best put to the OP. Plus when Israel finally goes, what happens to the hundreds of people who've lost civillian relatives in the attacks...when the Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad recruiter comes around.

well all those threads(about the MO) show one thing.
Stupidity.
the point is why is Syria out of libanon?
Why is Irael comming in?
Did hezbollah kill the libanese pm?
And if so why is israel going this far north?
Yes they al pawned you,and you forgot irak afghanistan as well as the rest
Propaganda did own you.and will own you
Stupidity
Colateral images

Well, at least you admit you're a troll.

You wouldn't say that to my face, I know you're that cowardly.

Brave words from someone who's probably never told Muslims that they need to be sterilized out of existence right to their faces.

:rolleyes:

Apparently their infrastructure is destroyed and they are doomed etc and so on. Why they are still able to fire large numbers of missiles into Israel (300 today) is a question best put to the OP. Plus when Israel finally goes, what happens to the hundreds of people who've lost civillian relatives in the attacks...when the Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad recruiter comes around.

That is assuming that they will come around. I mean, after what happened after the last cross-border violence, I do not believe that they want to try that again. Even Hezbollah realized they bit off more than they can chew.

Besides, one of those missiles landed in the Palestinian West Bank. OOPS!!

That is assuming that they will come around. I mean, after what happened after the last cross-border violence, I do not believe that they want to try that again. Even Hezbollah realized they bit off more than they can chew.

Besides, one of those missiles landed in the Palestinian West Bank. OOPS!!
oops that doesn't happen when tsahal come in,they really kind to only kill 600 hezbollah civilians.
you know it is war,and unless you know it,you should know that everybody loose.

oops that doesn't happen when tsahal come in,they really kind to only kill 600 hezbollah civilians.
you know it is war,and unless you know it,you should know that everybody loose.

Oh I know it is war. Funny thing is that the people on here seem to think that Israel is the bad guy because of the civilian casualties. They forget that Hezbollah is hiding behind civilians and thus there will be alot of them. Hezbollah is using unguided rockets and it just so happens that it landed in Palestinian Controlled West Bank. I actually find irony in that Hezbollah does not care where their rockets (as unguided missiles are called) land.

Apparently their infrastructure is destroyed and they are doomed etc and so on. Why they are still able to fire large numbers of missiles into Israel (300 today) is a question best put to the OP. Plus when Israel finally goes, what happens to the hundreds of people who've lost civillian relatives in the attacks...when the Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad recruiter comes around.
If they have even a pair of neurons to knock around they'll realize that those fuckers were the ones who caused this whole mess.

If they have even a pair of neurons to knock around they'll realize that those fuckers were the ones who caused this whole mess.

Sort of like how the Native American tribes being slaughtered should have had enough neurons to realize their leaders were causing the U.S. military to slaughter them?

:rolleyes:

Once again, the Menendez Defense is used on a global scale.

Yes, because israel has attempted major genocide and continual aggressive land aquisition against the arab people. :rolleyes:

The amount of USAwank in this thread is really quite nauseating.

(It's your cue to call me a terrorist Hezbollah anti-American communist Islamic donkey-fucker now.)

Oh I know it is war. Funny thing is that the people on here seem to think that Israel is the bad guy because of the civilian casualties. They forget that Hezbollah is hiding behind civilians and thus there will be alot of them. Hezbollah is using unguided rockets and it just so happens that it landed in Palestinian Controlled West Bank. I actually find irony in that Hezbollah does not care where their rockets (as unguided missiles are called) land.

no they don't forget it,everywhere the media are telling this,this doesn't make it thrue.and yes those katchouka make mistakes like 'tsahal " do.luckely they have a better guiding system(israel),that is why you only got 600 dead as well as 700000 people fleeing,just because they have more(better) weapon than katchouka..
What is the point of this war,away from a strategic positioning?.

no they don't forget it,everywhere the media are telling this,this doesn't make it thrue.and yes those katchouka make mistakes like 'tsahal " do.luckely they have a better guiding system(israel),that is why you only got 600 dead as well as 700000 people fleeing,just because they have more(better) weapon than katchouka..
What is the point of this war,away from a strategic positioning?.

Oh I do not know...how about enforcement of UNSCR 1559 perhaps? You know! The one that actually calls for Hezbollah to be disarmed.

so the reaction to me pointing out the wishful thinking of the K101 was

a: im a terrorist apologist for not being 'on message'

b: even though hezbollah is firing more rockets further into israel, israel is winning. why are they winning? just because. dont ask arqward questions dammit. we like israel and even questioning their tactics is commie :rolleyes:

its appaling and worries me that clearly intellegent people will choose to switch all critical reasoning off.

so what, the IDF paras got into baalbek? apart from symbolism, it meant nothing, they got no-one.

did anyone read the latest economist? they dont do free online, but its editorial says exactly what i said. israel has failed to shut hezbollah down and has now elevated them to saladin status. waled into a trap, but the israeli people will put up with it. also calls on the us to clip their wings sooner rather than later as they cant win and risk being sucked in. bet they are anti-semitic terrorist sympathisers too.

Oh I do not know...how about enforcement of UNSCR 1559 perhaps? You know! The one that actually calls for Hezbollah to be disarmed.
and about israel getting fair about its nuclear capacities and what not?

so the reaction to me pointing out the wishful thinking of the K101 was

a: im a terrorist apologist for not being 'on message'

b: even though hezbollah is firing more rockets further into israel, israel is winning. why are they winning? just because. dont ask arqward questions dammit. we like israel and even questioning their tactics is commie :rolleyes:

Nice red-herrings there. Hezbollah is wasting its supply of rockets and hitting nothing, but still aiming at civilian centers.

Isreal is pushing farther and farther into Lebanon w/ its airforce ranging unopposed.

I guess that's "not winning" in your book.


its appaling and worries me that clearly intellegent people will choose to switch all critical reasoning off.

Pot meet kettle.

BTW: intelligent


so what, the IDF paras got into baalbek? apart from symbolism, it meant nothing, they got no-one.

According to who? Hezbollah? They're denying that they get weapons from Iran when even Iran admits it. Reliable source there.

did anyone read the latest economist? they dont do free online, but its editorial says exactly what i said. israel has failed to shut hezbollah down and has now elevated them to saladin status. waled into a trap, but the israeli people will put up with it. also calls on the us to clip their wings sooner rather than later as they cant win and risk being sucked in. bet they are anti-semitic terrorist sympathisers too.

Now they've "walked into a trap"? What "trap" would that be? The one that is allowing IDF forces to push farther into Lebanon and allowing complete air and sea superiority to the air force and navy? That "trap"?

The difference between Saladin and Hezbollah is that Saladin actually won fights and didn't have the crusaders ranging over his entire nation w/ impunity. He also didn't hide behind civilians to cover his own ass.

Ironic that earlier you said that Isreal had not been in contact w/ Hezbollah. Guess you were wrong about that as well.

so what, the IDF paras got into baalbek? apart from symbolism, it meant nothing, they got no-one.

According to whom?

and about israel getting fair about its nuclear capacities and what not?

This has nothing to do with nukes so I am going to ask you where this came from.

This has nothing to do with nukes so I am going to ask you where this came from.


It's called a red-herring.

Trostia...what did you ever see in that donkey anyway ?









please dont say" nice ass "

Oh I do not know...how about enforcement of UNSCR 1559 perhaps? You know! The one that actually calls for Hezbollah to be disarmed.

No, no, that one doesn't count. The only ones that count are the ones that the US has vetoed opposing Isreal.

It's perfectly OK for countries to violate that one.

No, no, that one doesn't count. The only ones that count are the ones that the US has vetoed opposing Isreal.

It's perfectly OK for countries to violate that one.

If this statement was not so serious, I would be laughing. However, I am getting that impression :(

Yes, you can. And the casualties, by the Fourth Geneva Convention, are the fault of the people who used the hospital to hide.


Actually, no....

http://www.genevaconventions.org/

In international conflicts, civilians may not be used to protect areas from military operations. (Convention IV, Art. 28 and Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 7)


The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

- Protection of the civilian population

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

4. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are: (a) those which are not directed at a specific military objective; (b) those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or (c) those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol;

and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate: (a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects;

and

(b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

6. Attacks against the civilian population or civilians by way of reprisals are prohibited.

7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.

But...

8. Any violation of these prohibitions shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians, including the obligation to take the precautionary measures provided for in Article 57.

In international conflicts, civilians may not be used to protect areas from military operations. (Convention IV, Art. 28 and Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 7)

Originally Posted by Art. 28.
The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

So what Deep Kimchi said was indeed true. Israel is doing what they can though to limit civilian casualties. If they were not then there would be a lot more dead.

Hezbollah on the other hand....

Oh I do not know...how about enforcement of UNSCR 1559 perhaps? You know! The one that actually calls for Hezbollah to be disarmed.
That will never happen and you know it, for Hezbollah to be disarm you would have to saturate the country completely with ground troops and thoroughly occupy the country, you would have to put 200,000 troops in the country and they would get eaten up just like they did last time. Israel most definetely doesnt want to do that, thus the reliance of air attacks and limited ground incursions, the French were their under a UN mandate near the border a while ago, but they kept getting in fire fights with militants. The only chance for disarmament would be using arab troops under a UN mandate to peacefully policy the country, and not to destroy Hezbollah. I would think using Turkish or Egyptian UN troops would be the best way, Israel's 'objectiveless' and 'reactionary' campaign at the moment is absolutely pointless, and will put Israel in an even worst strategic position than before the soldier kidnappings, they havent even made it too the Mitane like the government said they would, I seriously smell a quagmire. And quite frankly the US ambassadors comments about Hezbollah not abiding a ceasefire is ridiculous, they said the same thing about the PLO and look what happened there. Once again, were in a world in which the division between freedom fight and terrorist is indistinguishable.

That will never happen and you know it, for Hezbollah to be disarm you would have to saturate the country completely with ground troops and thoroughly occupy the country, you would have to put 200,000 troops in the country and they would get eaten up just like they did last time. Israel most definetely doesnt want to do that, thus the reliance of air attacks and limited ground incursions, the French were their under a UN mandate near the border a while ago, but they kept getting in fire fights with militants. The only chance for disarmament would be using arab troops under a UN mandate to peacefully policy the country, and not to destroy Hezbollah. I would think using Turkish or Egyptian UN troops would be the best way, Israel's 'objectiveless' and 'reactionary' campaign at the moment is absolutely pointless, and will put Israel in an even worst strategic position than before the soldier kidnappings, they havent even made it too the Mitane like the government said they would, I seriously smell a quagmire. And quite frankly the US ambassadors comments about Hezbollah not abiding a ceasefire is ridiculous, they said the same thing about the PLO and look what happened there. Once again, were in a world in which the division between freedom fight and terrorist is indistinguishable.

Um, no. The IDF is moving forward. Numerous countries are violating the mandate by continuing to arm Hezbollah. "Freedom Fighters" don't cross borders to kidnap soldiers and use them in violation if international law. The PLO couldn't control it's people either. That's why you continously saw suicide bombings and attacks. Not really a good source to use.

That will never happen and you know it, for Hezbollah to be disarm you would have to saturate the country completely with ground troops and thoroughly occupy the country, you would have to put 200,000 troops in the country and they would get eaten up just like they did last time. Israel most definetely doesnt want to do that, thus the reliance of air attacks and limited ground incursions, the French were their under a UN mandate near the border a while ago, but they kept getting in fire fights with militants.

Two things. One, Israel is doing more than limited ground incursions. They have infact, taken several villages and have engaged Hezbollah in ground action. In fact, 10,000 troops have crossed the border and a few thousand more are in training for ground operations inside Lebanon. Two, both the US and the French were there in 1983 as part of a UN mandated multinational force. Both the French barracks and the US Barracks got hit in terrorist attacks by Hezbollah even though neither one of those countries were involved in the fighting. All we were their for was for peacekeeping operations as well as getting the PLO out of the area.

The only chance for disarmament would be using arab troops under a UN mandate to peacefully policy the country, and not to destroy Hezbollah.

United Nations Resolution does not call for the destruction of Hezbollah but to disarm Hezbollah.

I would think using Turkish or Egyptian UN troops would be the best way, Israel's 'objectiveless' and 'reactionary' campaign at the moment is absolutely pointless, and will put Israel in an even worst strategic position than before the soldier kidnappings, they havent even made it too the Mitane like the government said they would, I seriously smell a quagmire.

Pointless? You think going after those who have been attacking you with rockets for years, pointless? You think going after a known terror group who illegally crossed the border, killed eight IDF troops and captured two IDF soldiers pointless in a most blantant act of war? And they do want to get to the Litani River. No they have not gotten there yet so there you are right. That does not mean that they will not get there for I believe that they will get there.

And quite frankly the US ambassadors comments about Hezbollah not abiding a ceasefire is ridiculous, they said the same thing about the PLO and look what happened there. Once again, were in a world in which the division between freedom fight and terrorist is indistinguishable.

So what freedom is Hezbollah fighting for since 2000 when Israel pulled totally out of Lebanon?

That will never happen and you know it, for Hezbollah to be disarm you would have to saturate the country completely with ground troops and thoroughly occupy the country, you would have to put 200,000 troops in the country and they would get eaten up just like they did last time. Israel most definetely doesnt want to do that, thus the reliance of air attacks and limited ground incursions, the French were their under a UN mandate near the border a while ago, but they kept getting in fire fights with militants. The only chance for disarmament would be using arab troops under a UN mandate to peacefully policy the country, and not to destroy Hezbollah. I would think using Turkish or Egyptian UN troops would be the best way, Israel's 'objectiveless' and 'reactionary' campaign at the moment is absolutely pointless, and will put Israel in an even worst strategic position than before the soldier kidnappings, they havent even made it too the Mitane like the government said they would, I seriously smell a quagmire. And quite frankly the US ambassadors comments about Hezbollah not abiding a ceasefire is ridiculous, they said the same thing about the PLO and look what happened there. Once again, were in a world in which the division between freedom fight and terrorist is indistinguishable.

No it's not.

Hezz is a terrorist organization, the IDF is not.

I did the hard part for you, think man, think.

Hezz is a terrorist organization, the IDF is not. .who gets to say who is a Terrorist.. and who is not?

You?

who gets to say who is a Terrorist.. and who is not?

You?
The United Nations has made it quite clear in this case. They also said Hezbollah is not allowed to have arms. It seems like you have a case of selective reading here.

oops that doesn't happen when tsahal come in,they really kind to only kill 600 hezbollah civilians.
you know it is war,and unless you know it,you should know that everybody loose.
Ah yes, the old saw. Go live in you little pink fluffy world. Not to mention the fact that since hezzies don't where uniforms and are apparently inflating the kill countsof women and children, how doyou know which deaths are civvies and which aren't?

The United Nations has made it quite clear in this case. They also said Hezbollah is not allowed to have arms. It seems like you have a case of selective reading here.

As specified in 1559. Anyone who supplies weapons to Hezbollah is indeed violating International Law as UN Security Council Resolutions are binding and are considered International Law.

Israel apparently launched a large offensive in Southern lebanon using 10,000 troops and a ton of armor. It appears they caught a few Hezz in a hospital and took them prisoner.

So they launched an offensive of that size and caught a 'few' guerillas?

who gets to say who is a Terrorist.. and who is not?

You?
The United Nations has made it quite clear in this case. the UN is constitued by 192 Countries.. only 6 of them say Hezbollah is Terrorist.

Israel
US/UK
and a couple other anglo countries.

So they launched an offensive of that size and caught a 'few' guerillas?

Actually, the offensive has seized quite a few towns within the combat area. The terrorists (can not call them guerillas because they were not fighting an occupation) were captured by an IDF raiding party.

the UN is constitued by 192 Countries.. only 6 of them say Hezbollah is Terrorist.

Israel
US/UK
and a couple other anglo countries.

UN Resolution 1559 specifies that Hezbollah must disarm. Therefor, the UN is quite clear on the issue.

Actually, the offensive has seized quite a few towns within the combat area. The terrorists (can not call them guerillas because they were not fighting an occupation) were captured by an IDF raiding party.

Ah that makes much more sense.

Therefor, the UN is quite clear on the issue.the UN is constitued by 192 Countries.. only 6 of them say Hezbollah is Terrorist.


Hezbollah is NOT on the UN terrorists List.

Ah that makes much more sense.

Glad I could be of some assistence my friend :)

the UN is constitued by 192 Countries.. only 6 of them say Hezbollah is Terrorist.


Hezbollah is NOT on the UN terrorists List.

You apparently are not listening to what is being said. Considering what I have been observing, you have an annoying habit of doing so.

Here is the skinny on UN Security Council resolutions. They are binding upon all member nations regardless of what they feel. Therefore, 1559 has called for the full disarmament of all Lebanonese and non-Lebanonese militias. All but one have done so. That one is Hezbollah who is being supplied by Iran and Syria. Iran and Syria are therefor violating 1559 which states that Hezbollah must be disarmed. It does not matter if it is recognized as a terror group or not. The fact that all Lebanonese Militias and non-Lebanonese militias must be disarmed.

The United Nations has made it quite clear in this case. They also said Hezbollah is not allowed to have arms. It seems like you have a case of selective reading here.

So the terrorists must bow but Israel should be allowed to ignore the UN?

who gets to say who is a Terrorist.. and who is not?

You?

It's easy. The one who's always stirring up trouble by intentionally aiming to kill civilians. The same ones the US is dealing with are the same ones Israel, Ethiopia, France, Britain, Spain, and Russia have dealt with.

I swear OD, we've said this a million times. This is a direct result of the moral-relativity crap.

There is no right or wrong
There is no black or white
There is no good and evil
There is no winners and losers
Everything goes

Etc.

I shall post it again, since you missed it the last time.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/20923155467.jpg&s=f10

One side is trying to protect it's future. I'll let you guess which one

One side hides among civilians and uses them as shields. I'll let you guess which one too.

Can't be too hard....

the UN is constitued by 192 Countries.. only 6 of them say Hezbollah is Terrorist.


Hezbollah is NOT on the UN terrorists List.

To hell with them, 241 marines were killed in 1983 by...a Hezzie truck bomb.

Stop apologizing for terrorists OD.

So they launched an offensive of that size and caught a 'few' guerillas?
They captured them in the small operation of an Israeli unit of about platoon size deploying via Helo to Eastern Lebanon. They killed 16 Hezbollah with 0 casualties. There are also some good vidoes of the raid.

So the terrorists must bow but Israel should be allowed to ignore the UN?

Israel is a legitimate gov't, Hezbollah is a bunch of Iranian sponsored towel headed pantywaists.

There IS a difference.

Israel is a legitimate gov't, Hezbollah is a bunch of Iranian sponsored towel headed pantywaists.

There IS a difference.
So? Israel as a national government should recognise that the fifty-odd resolutions they've ignored are perhaps a sign that they may be doing things the idiot's way.

Israel is a legitimate gov't, Hezbollah is a bunch of Iranian sponsored towel headed pantywaists.

There IS a difference.

In reality, Israel should not be ignoring UN resolutions either.

So the terrorists must bow but Israel should be allowed to ignore the UN?
Israel was listening to 242 (tha'ts the one right?) by pulling out of Gaza and preparing a similar pullout of the West Bank. Then Hamas was elected. Not Israel's fault that the Palis rejected land for peace and chose war once aga in. Need I also remind you of Camp David in 2000 or Taba?

So? Israel as a national government should recognise that the fifty-odd resolutions they've ignored are perhaps a sign that they may be doing things the idiot's way.
THe resoultiopns you mention are non-binding General Assembly statements. Kind of hard for Israel when 1/3 of the General Assembly is made up of Islamic nations.

So? Israel as a national government should recognise that the fifty-odd resolutions they've ignored are perhaps a sign that they may be doing things the idiot's way.

It does show that the entire Middle East has an annoying habit of ignoring UN Resolutions.

They captured them in the small operation of an Israeli unit of about platoon size deploying via Helo to Eastern Lebanon. They killed 16 Hezbollah with 0 casualties. There are also some good vidoes of the raid.

IDF you had BETTER post pics and video!

Or else I might....:p

It does show that the entire Middle East has an annoying habit of ignoring UN Resolutions.
Also remember that Israel is unfairly seperated for UN Resolutions when they are just trying to defend themselves. Meanwhile Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations behead or stone people for minor crimes or "collaborating with Jews."

Israel was listening to 242 (tha'ts the one right?) by pulling out of Gaza and preparing a similar pullout of the West Bank. Then Hamas was elected. Not Israel's fault that the Palis rejected land for peace and chose war once aga in. Need I also remind you of Camp David in 2000 or Taba?

So the score stands at:

Resolutions followed: 1

Resolutions ignored: 52

http://www.mediamonitors.net/michaelsladah&suleimaniajlouni1.html

Annoyingly enough, those EVIL anti-semitic UN bastards DARE to call Israel on breaches of the Gebeva Conventions!

IDF you had BETTER post pics and video!

Or else I might....:p
CNN was airing them

Also remember that Israel is unfairly seperated for UN Resolutions when they are just trying to defend themselves. Meanwhile Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations behead or stone people for minor crimes or "collaborating with Jews."

Hell throw OD for a twist and tell him that Iran hangs gay people. OMG!!!!! WAR FOR GAY PEOPLE!!1111!!!11!

So the score stands at:

Resolutions followed: 1

Resolutions ignored: 52

http://www.mediamonitors.net/michaelsladah&suleimaniajlouni1.html
I think almost all of the 52 are "General AssemblY" resolutiosn, which aren't legally binding. THey are like House Resolutions. They suggest a course of action, but do not mandate one.

Hell throw OD for a twist and tell him that Iran hangs gay people. OMG!!!!! WAR FOR GAY PEOPLE!!1111!!!11!
Israel legalized Gay Marraige.

They also elected a female PM in the 60s (when no one would even consider it in the US or most other Western nations.) Israel's enemies see advances for women's rights as letting them become suicide bombers.

So the score stands at:

Resolutions followed: 1

Resolutions ignored: 52

http://www.mediamonitors.net/michaelsladah&suleimaniajlouni1.html

Annoyingly enough, those EVIL anti-semitic UN bastards DARE to call Israel on breaches of the Gebeva Conventions!

Can I get a link that does not include "An open letter to GWB?" please?

'Almost', so what about the ones from the SC? Is Israel right to ignore those?

AC: OH NO! My link wasn't to FOX.com! LIBRUL JEW-HATING PLOT

...what is being said....what is being said..?

what I am saying is "Who gets to say who is a terrorist.. and who is not..

you???"

dat iz what I am saying.
dat iz the question.

'Almost', so what about the ones from the SC? Is Israel right to ignore those?
Israel has actually followedd the UNSC ones. 242 is the only one I can recall directly. ANy other ones passed are extentions to 242 IIRC. Israel was 100% ready to follow through under SHaron and later Olmert. The Palestinians then responded to Israel's willingness for peace by electing terrorists to lead their government to wage war on Israel.

I also can mention the Camp David Accords of the Taba Accords to resurrect those talks. You can'nt blame Israel when they don't have a partner for peace since their partner doesn't recognize their right to live.

'Almost', so what about the ones from the SC? Is Israel right to ignore those?

I alreayd answered this question.

AC: OH NO! My link wasn't to FOX.com! LIBRUL JEW-HATING PLOT

:confused: Why would I want a link to fox.com when I do not even watch that channel unless there is a football game on it?

..what is being said..?

what I am saying is "Who gets to say who is a terrorist..

you???"

thas is what I am saying.
No, I get to decide who's a terrorist and who isn't.
You terrorist.

Israel has actually followedd the UNSC ones. 242 is the only one I can recall directly. ANy other ones passed are extentions to 242 IIRC. Israel was 100% ready to follow through under SHaron and later Olmert. The Palestinians then responded to Israel's willingness for peace by electing terrorists to lead their government to wage war on Israel.

I also can mention the Camp David Accords of the Taba Accords to resurrect those talks. You can'nt blame Israel when they don't have a partner for peace since their partner doesn't recognize their right to live.

http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html

..what is being said..?

what I am saying is "Who gets to say who is a terrorist.. and who is not..

you???"

dat iz what I am saying.
dat iz the question.
OD, the fact is regardless of what YOU think of them, the UN says they can't have weapons. Now please STFU as you seem to be repeating the same old anti-Jew **** in your posts.

You seem to trust AL-Manar for your news. I bet you actually buy their reports they did recently saying that Matzah is made out of the blood of Muslims and Christians.

No, I get to decide who's a terrorist and who isn't.
You terrorist.then that is settled.. isnt it?

..what is being said..?

what I am saying is "Who gets to say who is a terrorist.. and who is not..

you???"

dat iz what I am saying.
dat iz the question.

Care to answer my post that has nothing to do with who gets to say who is a terrorist but deals with the disarmament of Hezbollah and those who supply them weapons are indeed violating International Law?

http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html
Post a list from a non-biased site

I believe most of their mislabelved UNSCR are really UN General Assembly Resolutions.

OD, the fact is regardless of what YOU think of them, the UN says they can't have weapons. Now please STFU as you seem to be repeating the same old anti-Jew **** in your posts.

You seem to trust AL-Manar for your news. I bet you actually buy their reports...who is AL-Manar and why should I pay for his reports?

then that is settled.. isnt it?
Yes, now and forever.

http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html
Real good source:rolleyes:

They call Jerusalem "occupied" territory

http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html

Looks like most of them are condemnations and regrets resolutions. And some of these that deal with Lebanon are one sided for the most part, and they did pull out of lebanon in 2000.

who is AL-Manar and why should I pay for his reports?
It is the HEzbollah news channel. You have linked to stories in past threads citing them as a source

Real good source:rolleyes:

They call Jerusalem "occupied" territory

Would you like to take a look at the UN archives? They're all there. I had to back this up on Cybernations. :S

..what is being said..?

what I am saying is "Who gets to say who is a terrorist.. and who is not..

you???"

dat iz what I am saying.
dat iz the question.

Easy, the ones who have to deal with them.

Looks like most of them are condemnations and regrets resolutions. And some of these that deal with Lebanon are one sided for the most part, and they did pull out of lebanon in 2000.

* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".

* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".

* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions...

* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Would you like to take a look at the UN archives? They're all there. I had to back this up on Cybernations. :S

That would be nice.

Care to answer my post that has nothing to do with who gets to say who is a terrorist but deals with ...I think people needs to realize that only Israel.. plus a handful of english speaking coutries say Hezbollah is Terrorist. (5% of the UN)

Would you like to take a look at the UN archives? They're all there. I had to back this up on Cybernations. :S
Even if that is the case, most of these resolutions don't call for action so you can't call them "ignored resolutions." Israle has taken action on the key points of pulling out of Lebanon and Palestinian territoires. The fact is that the Islamo-fascists keep forcing Israel to take action.

Even if that is the case, most of these resolutions don't call for action so you can't call them "ignored resolutions." Israle has taken action on the key points of pulling out of Lebanon and Palestinian territoires. The fact is that the Islamo-fascists keep forcing Israel to take action.
It's spelled Israel. Jesus Christ, you blindly support the nation, I'd expect you to spell it right...

Even if that is the case, most of these resolutions don't call for action so you can't call them "ignored resolutions." Israle has taken action on the key points of pulling out of Lebanon and Palestinian territoires. The fact is that the Islamo-fascists keep forcing Israel to take action.

MOST. Israel has funnily forgotten calls to abide by the fourth geneva conention, and to get the hell out of the Golan heights.

* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".

Wat did they do to deserve expulsion? That is the question that I have to ask.

* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".

On what grounds?

* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions...

How can one violate a censure?

* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Of what? Not using Human shields? What did the Palestinians do to deserve deportation? That is a question that needs to be asked.

I think people needs to realize that only (5%) a handful of english speaking coutries say Hezbollah is Terrorist.

the UN resolutions? :rolleyes: they are not worth much these days.. are they?

Hezbollah....

Runs across borders, attacks military forces of another LEGITIMATE gov't...

Runs it's own raggedy (headed) band of hadj militants to attack Israel whenever possible

Launches rockets at israel, and when Mohammed screws up the guidance occasionally themselves

Supplied by terrorist states Syria and iran

Is at war with a Democratic country, Israel

C'mon....

I think people needs to realize that only Israel.. plus a handful of english speaking coutries say Hezbollah is Terrorist. (5% of the UN)

the UN resolutions? :rolleyes: they are not worth much these days.. are they?

UN Resolutions have the full backing of International law so I say they are worth alot. Are you saying that Iran and Syria should be allowed to violate 1559?

* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".

* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".

* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions...

* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Israel arrests people who have ties to terrorism, what's bad about that? As for Jerusalem, Israel didn't start the war. Jordan had to be punished for doing so and losing land is a harsh lesson.

Also on the number of resolutions passed, I'm reminded of Thomas Friedman quote.

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction - out of proportion to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest"

Israel has due process, democracy, Arabs on the supreme court, women's rights, gay rights, doesn't cut off the hands of thiefs, doesn't kill for adultary, and is a secular society. The Arab states are far worse yet never get touched by the UN.

MOST. Israel has funnily forgotten calls to abide by the fourth geneva conention, and to get the hell out of the Golan heights.

The Golan heights would then be turned over to forces NOT friendly to Israel, and from there they have a GOOD view of Israel. Bad mojo.

Keep it forever...it's a great peice of property with enormous tactical advantages.

If it was in the hands of Syria it'd just be used to lob mortars and rockets off of and they'd get better range and accuracy .

MOST. Israel has funnily forgotten calls to abide by the fourth geneva conention, and to get the hell out of the Golan heights.
Because it's really smart to give back the most important strategic high ground in the region to a nation that doesn't recognize your right to live.:rolleyes:

Until Syria recognizes Israel, it's not going to happen.

It's spelled Israel. Jesus Christ, you blindly support the nation, I'd expect you to spell it right...
When you resort to critiquing spelling of a post, you know you've lost.

dp

Because it's really smart to give back the most important strategic high ground in the region to a nation that doesn't recognize your right to live.:rolleyes:

Until Syria recognizes Israel, it's not going to happen.

I think they'd settle for halting supporting terror and keeping Hezz supressed in their own areas.

They can deal with them on the 'right to live' area.

UN Resolutions have the full backing of International law so I say they are worth alot. really??..
so If the UN calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of Palestinian elected officials and judges".

Do you think Israel will comply?? Do you???

really??..
so If the UN calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of Palestinian elected officials and judges".

Do you think Israel will comply?? Do you???

Why would they let terrorist sympathisers back into the projects to stir up trouble?

Israel arrests people who have ties to terrorism, what's bad about that? As for Jerusalem, Israel didn't start the war. Jordan had to be punished for doing so and losing land is a harsh lesson.

Also on the number of resolutions passed, I'm reminded of Thomas Friedman quote.

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction - out of proportion to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest"

Israel has due process, democracy, Arabs on the supreme court, women's rights, gay rights, doesn't cut off the hands of thiefs, doesn't kill for adultary, and is a secular society. The Arab states are far worse yet never get touched by the UN.

The Arabs aren't currently engaged in the opression of a sovereign state and the illegal occupation of a city that doesn't belong to them.

really??..
so If the UN calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of Palestinian elected officials and judges".

Do you think Israel will comply?? Do you???

That'd be like the UN asking the US to allow the Aztlan/MECHA traitors back in the US after being kicked, err booted into Mexico.

Insanity.

The UN doesn't have ANY power over israel's domestic affairs...none, what so ever. Israeli law and action trumps UN law and action...any day.

The Arabs aren't currently engaged in the opression of a sovereign state and the illegal occupation of a city that doesn't belong to them.
They illegally occupied "Palestine" from 1948-1967. I don't recall any UN regulations on it.

Israel isn't occupying a soveriegn state. When has Palestine been one? They are technically occupying Egyptian and Jordanian land. After all, the land was in their posession when Israel took them in the 6 Day War, which was started by Arabs BTW.

The Arabs aren't currently engaged in the opression of a sovereign state and the illegal occupation of a city that doesn't belong to them.


Who is getting "oppressed"? What city is being occupied?

Noone, none.

Israel OWNS Jerusalem, fair and square. And as far as the Palestinian state goes-

A) Don't elect terrorists to your government

B) you would have got that state by now if it wasn't for A.

They illegally occupied "Palestine" from 1948-1967. I don't recall any UN regulations on it.

Israel isn't occupying a soveriegn state. When has Palestine been one? They are technically occupying Egyptian and Jordanian land. After all, the land was in their posession when Israel took them in the 6 Day War, which was started by Arabs BTW.
Excuse me, I made an error. There is a sovereign Palestinian state. It is named JOrdan and was formed in the 20s with 80% of the land that was called Palestine.

I'm engaging in Wishful Thinking. I'm wondering, since Israel turned around and bit the UN in the ass, what will palestine do?

Anywho, Israel is still illegally claiming Jerusalem.

Why would they let terrorist sympathisers back into the projects to stir up trouble?maybe because the UN say they should.. ???????
_____________________________________

see this is the problem.. the Bushites/Pro-Jew/evagelical-Christians have selective rules enforcement.

help me Geneva!! ...the Arabs are breaking the rules
help me UN!! ..the Arabs breaking the rules.
help me Europe!! ...we need more cannonfodder..

but when Israel break the rules.. you say

Fuck Geneva!!
Fuck the UN!!
Fuck you Europe.. mind Your bussiness!!

I'm engaging in Wishful Thinking. I'm wondering, since Israel turned around and bit the UN in the ass, what will palestine do?

Anywho, Israel is still illegally claiming Jerusalem.
They offered up East Jerusalem in the Camp David talks. Israel currently "occupies" it because Arafat decided to fight a war with Israel. Not Israel's fault.

They offered up East Jerusalem in the Camp David talks. Israel currently "occupies" it because Arafat decided to fight a war with Israel. Not Israel's fault.

THAT CITY DOESN'T BELONG TO YOU!

And hey, only sovereign states can fight wars. :)

THAT CITY DOESN'T BELONG TO YOU!

And hey, only sovereign states can fight wars. :)
Gee, AL Qaeda seems to have declared war on us. and HEzbollah on Israel.

East Jerusalem was taken from Jordan in a war in which Israel fougth for its very surivival. Had the Arabs not waged war on Israel, then it would be in Arab hands. East Jerusalem was offered to the Palestinians. They refused and it took up arms against the Jews. You ca't blame Israel for it. You can blame the Palestinians though.

Hezbollah isn't winning. However, it isn't really losing either. Its having alot of its infrastructure, etc, damaged... but its bodies aren't being taken out very much. All this bombing is just driving hezbollah underground, and setting up the situation for a guerilla war.

Israel has the task of eliminating the whole of hezbollah. All hezbollah has to do is signifigantly turn public opinion of israel around, by getting israel to kill enough civilians.

Which is the easier task?

The difference between Saladin and Hezbollah is that Saladin actually won fights and didn't have the crusaders ranging over his entire nation w/ impunity. He also didn't hide behind civilians to cover his own ass.

The difference is that Hezbollah doesn’t need to win this one. In fact, martyrdom in the face of the “evil Zionist oppression” is all they need. The current generation of Hezbollah might be taking a beating, but what happens when the younger generation grows up? You know, those who had their fathers and brothers blown to bits in the Israeli air raids…

THAT CITY DOESN'T BELONG TO YOU!

And hey, only sovereign states can fight wars. :)
Tell that to the Seminole Indians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminole_Wars). They lost Florida, but they got one hell of a NCAA Football Program.

The difference is that Hezbollah doesn’t need to win this one. In fact, martyrdom in the face of the “evil Zionist oppression” is all they need. The current generation of Hezbollah might be taking a beating, but what happens when the younger generation grows up? You know, those who had their fathers and brothers blown to bits in the Israeli air raids…
Hmm what happens when poor uneducated children grow up with no hope of well anything but a suicide vest with their name on it, oh yeah, they die stupid too. If the people living in the shitholes surrounding the shithole known as Israel don't learn their lessons, they may find they too have need of a Chief Joseph.

Who is getting "oppressed"? What city is being occupied?

Noone, none.

Israel OWNS Jerusalem, fair and square. And as far as the Palestinian state goes-

A) Don't elect terrorists to your government

B) you would have got that state by now if it wasn't for A.

Arab east Jerusalem is not Israeli, and its the occupants of that and the West Bank who are being oppressed and occupied. Though objectionable, your remarks on force feeding pork to Muslims are at least amusing in a "point at the idiot" way, but your forays into serious discussion are just unfunny. Please desist.

They offered up East Jerusalem in the Camp David talks. Israel currently "occupies" it because Arafat decided to fight a war with Israel. Not Israel's fault.

They offered an unworkable solution as an opening position. If you want to start a thread with a map of the proposal and tell me how it was supposed to work, feel free.

Hmm what happens when poor uneducated children grow up with no hope of well anything but a suicide vest with their name on it, oh yeah, they die stupid too. If the people living in the shitholes surrounding the shithole known as Israel don't learn their lessons, they may find they too have need of a Chief Joseph.

What lessons would those be? 'Your lives are not worth the same as Israeli or western lives, and there is a different set of rules for them than for you'

What lessons would those be? 'Your lives are not worth the same as Israeli or western lives, and there is a different set of rules for them than for you'
Force a more powerful foe to choose between their lives and your lives, they'll choose their lives, kill you and everyone you know, and in the unlikely event you do survive, you've got a shot at casinos.

Force a more powerful foe to choose between their lives and your lives, they'll choose their lives, kill you and everyone you know, and in the unlikely event you do survive, you've got a shot at casinos.

Yes, but that only applies to Hezbollah, not to those being occupied in the territories. Should they build a casino, it will be bombed for having roulette tables which may be used as home-made rockets.

Yes, but that only applies to Hezbollah, not to those being occupied in the territories. Should they build a casino, it will be bombed for having roulette tables which may be used as home-made rockets.
You're forgetting better than 90% of them are dead or fled, there's no more rioting, no bombs, no one wants any war at all, long having come to accept peace on any terms offered. Now they're running a nice resort old Israelies, or fat Americans, come to visit on buses. They leave their money and drive away. Tax free hookas as a bonus. The war and savagry have passed from living memory and now everything is pretty good, how about a nice game of Pai Gau? Everyone smiles at the Desertwinds Resort and Casino, shaped like a bedowin tent of route 6.

really??..
so If the UN calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of Palestinian elected officials and judges".

Do you think Israel will comply?? Do you???

Depends on why they are being expelled.

maybe because the UN say they should.. ???????

The UN has no authority over the domestic affairs of Israel.

The difference is that Hezbollah doesn’t need to win this one. In fact, martyrdom in the face of the “evil Zionist oppression” is all they need. The current generation of Hezbollah might be taking a beating, but what happens when the younger generation grows up? You know, those who had their fathers and brothers blown to bits in the Israeli air raids…

Probably will remember the devestation that was brought on Lebanon because of what Hezbollah did.

Arab east Jerusalem is not Israeli, and its the occupants of that and the West Bank who are being oppressed and occupied.

They would not be there if Arafat had taken the deal that was offered to him instead of launching an intifada.

At least since the 70's Arab children have been taught to hate Jews and Israel...not to mention the US and the colonial oppressors from Europe ( you know who you are ) . Thats a lot of generations of hate to overcome .

Call it Karma for the way we treated the region for over a hundred years...but its a reality that no one seems to be taaking into consideration.


how do you have PEACE when all you know is hate ?

They would not be there if Arafat had taken the deal that was offered to him instead of launching an intifada.

Firstly it was a "bad deal", secondly they shouldnt be there in the fucking first place and thirdly it was Ariel"bulldozer" Sharon who had a key part in the intifada.

how do you have PEACE when all you know is hate ?.

Well, a first step is getting the religous nuts building colonies in your midst out the door, and the forces of occupation gone too.

The UN has no authority over the domestic affairs of Israel.

Great. Then why can Saddam be tried for crimes etc?

Great. Then why can Saddam be tried for crimes etc?



Cuz we gots him under arrest.
Any further questions?

Firstly it was a "bad deal",

How was it a bad deal? I mean they were offered 95% of the land back plus East Jerusalem. How was that a bad dea?

Great. Then why can Saddam be tried for crimes etc?

He is being tried by the Iraqis themselves that is how.

Cuz we gots him under arrest.
Any further questions?

Though I admit I do occassionally acknowledge your existence to deliver a rap across the nose with a rolled up news paper, never ever ever think that a post of mine not made in answer to some of your more inane statements, is in anyway directed to you whatsoever.

They offered an unworkable solution as an opening position. If you want to start a thread with a map of the proposal and tell me how it was supposed to work, feel free.
How the hell was it unworkable? They got all of Gaza, East Jerusalem and 95% of the West Bank. Resolution 242 allows Israel to retain a portion of the land that contains strategicly important land for the purpose of protecting Israel.

Arafat didn't even offer a counter-proposal. Had he done so, there may have been peace. He chose to fight Israel instead of get a state. The Israelis can't be blamed because the Palestinians love having terrorists lead them. They elected Arafat in 1996 so I feel no pity on them for not getting their state.

Same situation today. Israel had a peace partner in Abbas and was working with him. There would've been a Palestinian state by 2009 had Hamas not been elected. Once again, the Palestinians are getting what they deserve, absolutely nothing. It's their own damn fault. Maybe they will learn their lesson this time.

How was it a bad deal? I mean they were offered 95% of the land back plus East Jerusalem. How was that a bad dea?

No, they did not offer East Jerusalem. Did you bother to either read it or look at the map of it?

Though I admit I do occassionally acknowledge your existence to deliver a rap across the nose with a rolled up news paper, never ever ever think that a post of mine not made in answer to some of your more inane statements, is in anyway directed to you whatsoever.

The short version is: drop dead.

Might make not make right,
but, like possession, it's 90% of the Law.

Firstly it was a "bad deal", secondly they shouldnt be there in the fucking first place and thirdly it was Ariel"bulldozer" Sharon who had a key part in the intifada.
You're an idiot if you blame Sharon. ALl Sharon did was visit the holiest site to Jews on the Sabbath. Guess what, he's a Jew he has a right to visit the Western Wall. If the Palestinians have a problem with it, then they can shove it up their ass.


Well, a first step is getting the religous nuts building colonies in your midst out the door, and the forces of occupation gone too.
Guess what, it would be gone had the Palis not elected terrorists. Israel was planning a full pullout prior to Hamas being elected. **** em, it's their fault.

How the hell was it unworkable? They got all of Gaza, East Jerusalem and 95% of the West Bank. Resolution 242 allows Israel to retain a portion of the land that contains strategicly important land for the purpose of protecting Israel..

Where does it say that in 242?

Arafat didn't even offer a counter-proposal.
..
True, for once.


Had he done so, there may have been peace. He chose to fight Israel instead of get a state. The Israelis can't be blamed because the Palestinians love having terrorists lead them. They elected Arafat in 1996 so I feel no pity on them for not getting their state...

Given the level of lies, venom and general crap you aim at Arabs, the vast majority of it with no basis whatsoever, that doesnt suprise me.


Same situation today. Israel had a peace partner in Abbas and was working with him. There would've been a Palestinian state by 2009 had Hamas not been elected. Once again, the Palestinians are getting what they deserve, absolutely nothing. It's their own damn fault. Maybe they will learn their lesson this time.

And who was it that told Barghouti, the reformer in the PLO, that they wouldnt deal with him if he was elected? Just as a matter of interest.

No, they did not offer East Jerusalem. Did you bother to either read it or look at the map of it?

Sorry but East Jerusalem was offered. But then, it is not you choose to ignore this from Taba Jerusalem
Both sides accepted in principle the Clinton suggestion of having a Palestinian sovereignty over Arab neighborhoods and an Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem. Both sides favored the idea of an open city. The Israeli side accepted that Jerusalem would be the capital of the two states: Yerushalaim, capital of Israel and Al-Quds, capital of the state of Palestine. Both parties accepted the principle of respective control over each side's respective holy sites. Israel's sovereignty over the Western Wall would be recognized although there remained a dispute regarding the delineation of the area covered by the Western Wall and especially the link to what is referred to in Clinton's ideas as the space sacred to Judaism of which it is part. Both sides agreed that the question of Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount has not been resolved.

No, they did not offer East Jerusalem. Did you bother to either read it or look at the map of it?

You're overlooking something.

While the Palestinians might have a right to bitch (and even to fight), the people of Hezbollah have NO SUCH RIGHT.

Hezbollah is NOT the Palestinians. They are a pure proxy force composed of Iranian volunteers and some Lebanese recruits.

Hezbollah's stated purpose is the destruction of Israel. One might ask, "why?" since they have no valid claim on the land, and no purpose other than a religious one for wanting the Jews dead.

You're an idiot if you blame Sharon. ALl Sharon did was visit the holiest site to Jews on the Sabbath. .

Yet he was asked not to by the internatyional community. Why do you think they did that?


Guess what, it would be gone had the Palis not elected terrorists. Israel was planning a full pullout prior to Hamas being elected. **** em, it's their fault.

No, there was no full pullout planned. Do you have some names and dates to go with that, or are you leaving in its bare untrue state without further refinement?

Where does it say that in 242? It says they are supposed to give back most of the land, but can retain portions of it that are necessary for making strategic defensive positions to guard from invasion.



Given the level of lies, venom and general crap you aim at Arabs, the vast majority of it with no basis whatsoever, that doesnt suprise me.
DOesn't change the fact that I'm speaking the truth.



And who was it that told Barghouti, the reformer in the PLO, that they wouldnt deal with him if he was elected? Just as a matter of interest.Doesn't matter, they were working with Abbas and the Palistinians responded to the moves of peace like the Gaza pullout by electing terrorists.

You're overlooking something.

While the Palestinians might have a right to bitch (and even to fight), the people of Hezbollah have NO SUCH RIGHT.

Hezbollah is NOT the Palestinians. They are a pure proxy force composed of Iranian volunteers and some Lebanese recruits.

Hezbollah's stated purpose is the destruction of Israel. One might ask, "why?" since they have no valid claim on the land, and no purpose other than a religious one for wanting the Jews dead.

But we arent talking about Hezbollah.....though I'm sure we'll get round to it. Why dont you start a few Islam bashing threads while you're waiting?

Yet he was asked not to by the internatyional community. Why do you think they did that?

Who gives damn? As a Jew he has a right to visit. In fact a person of any religion can visit that site today. Something that was not true from 1948-1967 when Jews and people of other religions were banned by Muslims from visiting the sties in Jerusalem.



No, there was no full pullout planned. Do you have some names and dates to go with that, or are you leaving in its bare untrue state without further refinement?Perhaps you didn't hear about Olmert's pullout plan for the West Bank. It was in the planning stages as a pullout of the West Bank would be very difficult to coordinate. Hell, perhaps you didn't hear about Likud throwing a fit about it.

It says they are supposed to give back most of the land, but can retain portions of it that are necessary for making strategic defensive positions to guard from invasion..

Then please cut and paste the relevant passage. Are youy C&P handicapped in some way? You just whack in the whole of it and bold the relevant part.


DOesn't change the fact that I'm speaking the truth...

Now and again. The only question in my mind is whether or not your realise the fact that most of what you come out with is false.


Doesn't matter, they were working with Abbas and the Palistinians responded to the moves of peace like the Gaza pullout by electing terrorists.

So you just made that up then. I sort of knew.

But we arent talking about Hezbollah.....though I'm sure we'll get round to it. Why dont you start a few Islam bashing threads while you're waiting?
Actually, the thread is titled, "Hezbollah-Owned behind its own lines".

I'm quite convinced that Israel will be allowed to screw Hezbollah and after that, an international force will sit in Southern Lebanon to enforce the UN resolution that demands the disarmament of Hezbollah.

After that, unless Syria and Iran want to start WW III, it's over for Hezbollah.

Who gives damn? As a Jew he has a right to visit. In fact a person of any religion can visit that site today. Something that was not true from 1948-1967 when Jews and people of other religions were banned by Muslims from visiting the sties in Jerusalem..

And the fact that he was condemned in his own country for 2 massacres in the Lebanon wouldn't in anyway be a factor why it should be perhaps a quite, private visit.......


Perhaps you didn't hear about Olmert's pullout plan for the West Bank. It was in the planning stages as a pullout of the West Bank would be very difficult to coordinate. Hell, perhaps you didn't hear about Likud throwing a fit about it.

Not a total withdrawal.

Nodinia, I did this one earlier....
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11489335&postcount=1

Yes, it's hard to negotiate with this sort of viewpoint:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746081.html

By The Associated Press

PUTRAJAYA, Malaysia - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday the solution to the Middle East crisis was to destroy Israel, Iranian state media reported.

In a speech during an emergency meeting of Muslim leaders in Malaysia, Ahmadinejad also called for an immediate cease-fire to end the fighting between Israel and the Iranian-back group Hezbollah. "Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented," Ahmadinejad said, according to state-run television in a report posted on its Web site.

It's what they're after all along, despite denials that imply Ahmanijhad has been "mistranslated" before.

The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel.

I haven't heard any ideas out of his mouth that don't sound exactly like Heydrich. In fact, I am quite sure, considering the coordination of the gasoline rationing in Iran, and the timing of the kidnappings by Palestinians and Hezbollah, that they had their own little Wannsee Conference earlier this year.

Yes, it's hard to negotiate with this sort of viewpoint:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746081.html



It's what they're after all along, despite denials that imply Ahmanijhad has been "mistranslated" before.

The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel.

I haven't heard any ideas out of his mouth that don't sound exactly like Heydrich. In fact, I am quite sure, considering the coordination of the gasoline rationing in Iran, and the timing of the kidnappings by Palestinians and Hezbollah, that they had their own little Wannsee Conference earlier this year.

Goes to show how much hate the President of Iran has and it is not helping the situation.

Yes, it's hard to negotiate with this sort of viewpoint:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746081.html



It's what they're after all along, despite denials that imply Ahmanijhad has been "mistranslated" before.

The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel.

I haven't heard any ideas out of his mouth that don't sound exactly like Heydrich. In fact, I am quite sure, considering the coordination of the gasoline rationing in Iran, and the timing of the kidnappings by Palestinians and Hezbollah, that they had their own little Wannsee Conference earlier this year.

how does 'elimination of the zionist regime' ie olmhert and the boys waging an illegal war, translate to 'The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel.'?

dont let the facts get in the way of your anti-muslim bias for fucks sake

how does 'elimination of the zionist regime' ie olmhert and the boys waging an illegal war, translate to 'The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel.'?

dont let the facts get in the way of your andti-muslim bias

Maybe you should read more of what Iran puts on its own website.

Maybe you should read more of what Iran puts on its own website.

you misquoted your own quote you spanner :p

some peoples grip on reality is getting looser by the day

how does 'elimination of the zionist regime' ie olmhert and the boys waging an illegal war, translate to 'The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel.'?

dont let the facts get in the way of your andti-muslim bias

Now throw in his other comments about it being an illegitimate state and that "they" have no right to be there.

Selective editing at it's best.

These comments are coming from a man whose country (that he's president of) openly supports a terrorist organization that targets Isreali civilians.

And yet you keep giving him the benefit of the doubt and being an apologist for Hezbollah and their numerous atrocities.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060803/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel

Now throw in his other comments about it being an illegitimate state and that "they" have no right to be there.

Selective editing at it's best.

These comments are coming from a man whose country (that he's president of) openly supports a terrorist organization that targets Isreali civilians.

And yet you keep giving him the benefit of the doubt.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060803/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel

its not benefit of the doubt. a huge number of people all across the world believe israel to be illegitimate and founded on illegal land. that doesnt translate to The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel, as DK so subtly puts it.

its the classic godwinesque laziness that anyone, including the iranian president, who criticises israel, even when they are slaughtering civilians by the hundred, is an anti semetic islamocommie type. its boring.

its not benefit of the doubt. a huge number of people all across the world believe israel to be illegitimate and founded on illegal land. that doesnt translate to The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel, as DK so subtly puts it.

its the classic godwinesque laziness that anyone, including the iranian president, who criticises israel, even when they are slaughtering civilians by the hundred, is an anti semetic islamocommie type. its boring.

Oh my God. You have a man who has clearly stated that he wants to destroy Isreal, supports terrorist organizations who target civilians and whose leaders openly support hamas' infintada.

"if they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

Guess who said that? It would be Hezbollahs president.

Another Hezbollah statement"

"It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth."

Now tell me again who funds these people?

And this is why you are an apologist.

Oh my God. You have a man who has clearly stated that he wants to destroy Isreal, supports terrorist organizations who target civilians and whose leaders openly support hamas' infintada.

"if they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

Guess who said that? It would be Hezbollahs president.

Another Hezbollah statement"

"It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth."

Now tell me again who funds these people?

Iran and Syria. I guess some people do not want to look at the facts.

Oh my God. You have a man who has clearly stated that he wants to destroy Isreal, supports terrorist organizations who target civilians and whose leaders openly support hamas' infintada.

"if they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

Guess who said that? It would be Hezbollahs president.

Another Hezbollah statement"

"It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth."

Now tell me again who funds these people?

And this is why you are an apologist.

sources?

the iranian president called for regieme change in israel in various forums.

DK claims this is a call for The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel.

you say he has called for the destruction of israel. could you find that quote? are you sure he didnt refer to the government?

are you lot for real? the iranian government doesnt like the israeli one? they support palestinain resistance? stop the press, hold the front page.

how exactly does calling propaganda and unsourced quotes attributed to hezbollah for accuracy make me an apologist. i mean some of the stuff posted here by the keyboard 101 is magnificently stupid.

*snip*

I guess you missed the quote where he says that Israel should be wiped off the map?

I guess you missed the quote where he says that Israel should be wiped off the map?
You know at this rate we will all be wiped out off this piece of rock,and Iran or not,sorry but surely as 2+2=5,we don't have any escape pod

I guess you missed the quote where he says that Israel should be wiped off the map?

thats been done before. apparently he didnt.

sources?

the iranian president called for regieme change in israel in various forums.

DK claims this is a call for The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel.

you say he has called for the destruction of israel. could you find that quote? are you sure he didnt refer to the government?

are you lot for real? the iranian government doesnt like the israeli one? they support palestinain resistance? stop the press, hold the front page.

how exactly does calling propaganda and unsourced quotes attributed to hezbollah for accuracy make me an apologist. i mean some of the stuff posted here by the keyboard 101 is magnificently stupid.

You are an apologist because links to these statements have been presented numerous times and you still deny them and go on to attack the posters.

Hell, here's just one source:

http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=10439

A Hezbollah statement in 1992 vowed, "It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth." In 2002, Sheik Nasrallah was quoted by the Lebanon Daily Star as encouraging Jews to move to Israel. "If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide," he was quoted as saying.

And some more:

Sheik Nasrallah said, "This American administration is an enemy. Our motto, which we are not afraid to repeat year after year, is: 'Death to America.' " In a speech broadcast the next day, he cited the Iranian Supreme Leader and preached, "We are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. The most honorable death is to be killed."

Now tell me again, whose ideology is Hezbollah based on? Who heavily funds and arms them in opposition to UN SC resolutions?

Quoting their own leaders is not propaganda. Your denial of these statements tell quite a lot about you.

Now go ahead and attack the source even though a google search will show you numerous locations.

thats been done before. apparently he didnt.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/10/e15e03d6-1013-440f-bdcf-e61d727624ed.html Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad's call for Israel to be "wiped off the map" has triggered a sharp international response and widespread condemnation. Ahmadinejad made the comments yesterday at a conference in Tehran entitled "The World without Zionism." Following the remarks, Israel said it considers Iran "a clear and present danger" and Washington said the comments highlight U.S. concerns about Iran's nuclear activities. Several countries, including Great Britain, France, and Spain said they would summon their Iranian envoys to demand an explanation.

That was in October 2005

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/15/wiran15.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/15/ixnewstop.html Israel will be annihilated in one storm, says Iran leader This was said on April 15, 2006

It is safe to say that Iran wants Israel destroyed.

sources?

the iranian president called for regieme change in israel in various forums.

DK claims this is a call for The death of every Jew, the elimination of Israel.

you say he has called for the destruction of israel. could you find that quote? are you sure he didnt refer to the government?

are you lot for real? the iranian government doesnt like the israeli one? they support palestinain resistance? stop the press, hold the front page.

how exactly does calling propaganda and unsourced quotes attributed to hezbollah for accuracy make me an apologist. i mean some of the stuff posted here by the keyboard 101 is magnificently stupid.
The only thing magnificently stupid is your blind obliviousness to what's really going on, and you're refusal to recognize the terrorists for what they are, thugs and murderers.

Then please cut and paste the relevant passage. Are youy C&P handicapped in some way? You just whack in the whole of it and bold the relevant part.
http://www.mythsandfacts.org/ReplyOnlineEdition/chapter-8.html

Read this link. It not only has quotes from the authors (authors intent is very important when interpreting a resolution), but it also shows the lines and how it says Israel doesn't have to pull back from ALL of the territories, just some of them.



Now and again. The only question in my mind is whether or not your realise the fact that most of what you come out with is false.
I am 100% correct in what I wrote. It is the Palestinians' fault that they don't have a country. They've walked away from every single deal offered by the Israelis. They even refuse to offer coutnerproposals.


So you just made that up then. I sort of knew.Made what up? That Hamas was elected after Israel was trying to make peace? That Abbas was a partner for peace and the Palestinians decided to vote for terrorism over peace?

Thanks for the pathetic attempt.:rolleyes:

And the fact that he was condemned in his own country for 2 massacres in the Lebanon wouldn't in anyway be a factor why it should be perhaps a quite, private visit.......
Neither he nor Israeli troops committed the massacre. The massacres were doen by Christian militias that were fighting in the Civil War. It is unfair to blame Sharon for the actions of LEbanese Christians. Had the IDF done it, you would have a credible claim. It appears you are just pulling shit ouy of your ass now.



Not a total withdrawal.[/QUOTE]
They can hold a few portions that are strategically important. Read the link provided in the above post. Israel has a right to hold important defensive positions.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/10/e15e03d6-1013-440f-bdcf-e61d727624ed.html Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad's call for Israel to be "wiped off the map" has triggered a sharp international response and widespread condemnation. Ahmadinejad made the comments yesterday at a conference in Tehran entitled "The World without Zionism." Following the remarks, Israel said it considers Iran "a clear and present danger" and Washington said the comments highlight U.S. concerns about Iran's nuclear activities. Several countries, including Great Britain, France, and Spain said they would summon their Iranian envoys to demand an explanation.

That was in October 2005

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/15/wiran15.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/15/ixnewstop.html Israel will be annihilated in one storm, says Iran leader This was said on April 15, 2006

It is safe to say that Iran wants Israel destroyed.
Don't forget that he said that if the Holocaust really happened, and he doesn't believe it did, but if it really happened, why don't the Europeans give the Jews some territory in Europe instead of Israel.

Yup, I think it's safe to say that he's a vicious anti-Semite.

Don't forget that he said that if the Holocaust really happened, and he doesn't believe it did, but if it really happened, why don't the Europeans give the Jews some territory in Europe instead of Israel.

Yup, I think it's safe to say that he's a vicious anti-Semite.
Just like most of his populous, but they can't truly be blamed since they have been brainwashed by propaganda such as the Arab media claim that "Matzah is made of the blood of Muslim babies."

Just like most of his populous, but they can't truly be blamed since they have been brainwashed by propaganda such as the Arab media claim that "Matzah is made of the blood of Muslim babies."
Actually, it was Christian babies. Muslim babies are too icky:D

You are an apologist because links to these statements have been presented numerous times and you still deny them and go on to attack the posters.

Hell, here's just one source:

http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=10439

A Hezbollah statement in 1992 vowed, "It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth." In 2002, Sheik Nasrallah was quoted by the Lebanon Daily Star as encouraging Jews to move to Israel. "If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide," he was quoted as saying.

And some more:

Sheik Nasrallah said, "This American administration is an enemy. Our motto, which we are not afraid to repeat year after year, is: 'Death to America.' " In a speech broadcast the next day, he cited the Iranian Supreme Leader and preached, "We are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. The most honorable death is to be killed."

Now tell me again, whose ideology is Hezbollah based on? Who heavily funds and arms them in opposition to UN SC resolutions?

Quoting their own leaders is not propaganda. Your denial of these statements tell quite a lot about you.

Now go ahead and attack the source even though a google search will show you numerous locations.

If anyone needs more proof, well, actions speak louder than words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_Bombing

Even Jews in Buenos Aires aren't safe. You can't tell me that Hezbollah and Iran only want to eliminate the state of Israel if they're killing Jews in South America. Clearly they're aiming for the elimination of Jews worldwide.

thats been done before. apparently he didnt.

So you think this individual only means the Gov't when he states :""Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime,", ""without the existence of the Zionist regime."?

Even w/ the fact that HEzbollah was organized by Iran , is still funded heavily by it, and openly states they want to destroy the entire state?

Just like most of his populous, but they can't truly be blamed since they have been brainwashed by propaganda such as the Arab media claim that "Matzah is made of the blood of Muslim babies."

As a person who has a few Jewish friends, I know that is incorrect. It is apparent only muslim extremists who believe this but since are in control, control what is put out :(

Don't forget that he said that if the Holocaust really happened, and he doesn't believe it did, but if it really happened, why don't the Europeans give the Jews some territory in Europe instead of Israel.

Yup, I think it's safe to say that he's a vicious anti-Semite.
How much time must it be reapeated that semite are not jew only?
Why is it that the holocaust,and the nazi crimes only associated with one particular"race"....
This taboe must be broken,without forgoting it doesn't have to be a censuur to everybody who denies that half of the victims weren't even jews.
remind you,i have really a problem with fanatic who knows better.
And can excuse the dead of innocent to push a political agenda.

Don't forget that he said that if the Holocaust really happened, and he doesn't believe it did, but if it really happened, why don't the Europeans give the Jews some territory in Europe instead of Israel.

Yup, I think it's safe to say that he's a vicious anti-Semite.

is it? how does asking why europe didnt clean up its own mess and asking why arabs have to suffer for german sins make you anti-semetic? thats just lazy. the man is a lot of things, but can we stick to what he actually said/did?

The only thing magnificently stupid is your blind obliviousness to what's really going on, and you're refusal to recognize the terrorists for what they are, thugs and murderers.

i do recognise them as that. the discussion is whether they are 'owned' and all i did was question the orthadoxy on this thread that they are getting spanked. they fired more missiles further into israel depsite all the IDF have thrown at them. and the response to aking this question? dogs abuse, terrorist apologist, anti-semite etc etc. the level of vitriol at mystelf and OD for simply suggesting that the IDF underestimated hezbollah and are getting sucked in is very telling.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/10/e15e03d6-1013-440f-bdcf-e61d727624ed.html Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad's call for Israel to be "wiped off the map" has triggered a sharp international response and widespread condemnation. Ahmadinejad made the comments yesterday at a conference in Tehran entitled "The World without Zionism." Following the remarks, Israel said it considers Iran "a clear and present danger" and Washington said the comments highlight U.S. concerns about Iran's nuclear activities. Several countries, including Great Britain, France, and Spain said they would summon their Iranian envoys to demand an explanation.

That was in October 2005

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/15/wiran15.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/15/ixnewstop.html Israel will be annihilated in one storm, says Iran leader This was said on April 15, 2006

It is safe to say that Iran wants Israel destroyed.

I read it differently. not saying i agree with the man, but lets discuss what he actually said. (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm)

I read it differently. not saying i agree with the man, but lets discuss what he actually said. (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm)

What I posted is precisely what he said.

How much time must it be reapeated that semite are not jew only?
Why is it that the holocaust,and the nazi crimes only associated with one particular"race"....
This taboe must be broken,without forgoting it doesn't have to be a censuur to everybody who denies that half of the victims weren't even jews.
remind you,i have really a problem with fanatic who knows better.
And can excuse the dead of innocent to push a political agenda.
The late 19th century term "anti-Semitism" came to be used in reference specifically to anti-Jewish sentiment. I know you're trying to be politically correct and whatnot, but anti-Semite is now implied as anti-Jew simply through the evolution of our language. Take it or leave it.

What I posted is precisely what he said.

read the article. linguistically, that phrase 'wipe off the map' doesnt exist in pharsee.

read the article. linguistically, that phrase 'wipe off the map' doesnt exist in pharsee.

Sorry but facts are facts and you my friend have been served facts in regards to what the Iranian President said.

is it? how does asking why europe didnt clean up its own mess and asking why arabs have to suffer for german sins make you anti-semetic? thats just lazy. the man is a lot of things, but can we stick to what he actually said/did?
[/URL]
Why do you keep rationalizing everything?

I think at the very least, we can say that he's not a huge fan of the Jews, no?

Sorry but facts are facts and you my friend have been served facts in regards to what the Iranian President said.

grow up. there was a reaction in the press over here at least after the inintial article in the german paper that claimed he said that. its not that simple. the guy was probably misquoted, so the facts arent the facts here. i hate to break into your black and white american 'good v evil' bubble, but if you are going to hang him, at least have the decency to do it for something he actually said.

The late 19th century term "anti-Semitism" came to be used in reference specifically to anti-Jewish sentiment. I know you're trying to be politically correct and whatnot, but anti-Semite is now implied as anti-Jew simply through the evolution of our language. Take it or leave it.
i will not leave until some people stop using the nazis as an excuse to bash other people.
And that is why i want a debat.

grow up.

And you just lost the debate.

Why do you keep rationalizing everything?

I think at the very least, we can say that he's not a huge fan of the Jews, no?

because im a rational person. :rolleyes:

i think its fair to say he doesnt lilke israelis. i have yet to see anything that is anti-semetic or anti-jew specifically

And you just lost the debate.

saying 'facts is facts' and refusing to read an artcily by linguists that shows the guy was misquoted gets you gold medal does it?

i will not leave until some people stop using the nazis as an excuse to bash other people.
And that is why i want a debat.
This is before the nazis. And what exactly is there to debate about?

because im a rational person. :rolleyes:

i think its fair to say he doesnt lilke israelis. i have yet to see anything that is anti-semetic or anti-jew specifically
How about denying the Holocaust?

Why don't you see the movie Obsession. You can see it for free via GOogle video They show some of his speeches in there. His comments are directed towards Jews.

I read it differently. not saying i agree with the man, but lets discuss what he actually said. (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm)

Of course you do.

Now let's take your own website"

Again following the independent translation: "I have no doubt that the new movement taking place in our dear Palestine is a spiritual movement which is spanning the entire Islamic world and which will soon remove this stain of disgrace from the Islamic world".


So he would be talking about Hamas, right? What is their goal again?

From Hamas' charter:

Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

And you just lost the debate.
This debate was lost after about the first page. Why people are still arguing is beyond me.

saying 'facts is facts' and refusing to read an artcily by linguists that shows the guy was misquoted gets you gold medal does it?

No but telling someone to grow up when he shows you what he said is very childish and ruins debate. By doing so, you forfeited the debate by telling me to grow up.

grow up. there was a reaction in the press over here at least after the inintial article in the german paper that claimed he said that. its not that simple. the guy was probably misquoted, so the facts arent the facts here. i hate to break into your black and white american 'good v evil' bubble, but if you are going to hang him, at least have the decency to do it for something he actually said.

So you want to believe.

And this from Hamas's own PR specialist:

"Abdel Aziz Rantisi [the former Hamas leader killed by Israel two years ago] was on television saying things that foreigners cannot accept, like we will remove Israel from the map. He should have talked about Palestinian suffering. He should have said we need this occupation ended. Foreigners will accept this," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1690610,00.html

So you want to believe.
The SR probably doesn't believe that Hitler had anything to do with the Holocaust, either.

because im a rational person. :rolleyes:

i think its fair to say he doesnt lilke israelis. i have yet to see anything that is anti-semetic or anti-jew specifically
"
In December 2005 and January and May 2006 Ahmadinejad made controversial statements denying the Holocaust, and criticizing European laws against Holocaust denial. These statements were condemned by many world leaders and led to accusations of anti-Semitism.

CNN and other media outlets reported that he stated concerning the Holocaust, that "they have invented a myth that Jews were massacred" [30].

In an interview with Der Spiegel, he was asked, "Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just 'a myth'?" Ahmadinejad responded, "I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it." In the same interview, he later stated, "We oppose every type of crime against any people. But we want to know whether this crime actually took place or not...If it did not occur, then the Jews have to go back to where they came from" [31].

In reaction to Ahmadinejad's comments on the Holocaust, the United States Senate passed a unanimous resolution condemning his "harmful, destructive, and anti-Semitic statements." and "hate and animosity toward all Jewish people of the world."[31]

Vociferous criticism came from throughout the world.[citation needed] One such criticism was in a The Cleveland Plain Dealer Opinion/Editorial piece in which the author called Ahmadinejad an "anti-Semitic rogue."[32]

Former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami said that the Holocaust is a "historic fact," while criticizing what he claimed was a connection between the Holocaust and "the persecution of the Palestinian people". [33]

Rev. Dr. Robert W. Edgar, General Secretary of the National Council of Churches in the USA, said, "Anti-Semitism’s most vociferous manifestation is the 'Big Lie' now coming from Tehran"[34].

The translation of his statements on the Holocaust have been disputed by the Iranian government. The government-controlled IRNA news agency has stated that Ahmadinejad said, "some have created a myth on holocaust and hold it even higher than the very belief in religion and prophets."[35] It should be noted that IRNA's mission is to secure "the Islamic Republic of Iran's national interests." [36]. The Iranian government further responded through a spokesman who charged that "the Western media empire is trying to portrait [sic] Iran as an anti-Semitic country... If you believe in the Holocaust...let other people express their ideas too and then try to convince them by your justifications." [37]."

From the mahmoud ahmadinejad article on wiki.

Probably will remember the devestation that was brought on Lebanon because of what Hezbollah did.

One can only hope. However, the “Death to the Zionists! Death to the US!” chants seem to suggest otherwise…

This debate was lost after about the first page. Why people are still arguing is beyond me.

You know what? I could not agree with you more. On the flip side though, it is fun :D

The SR probably doesn't believe that Hitler had anything to do with the Holocaust, either.
There are many posters who feel that way. NS is a hotspot for neo-Nazis. It really kills this site's reputation.

How about denying the Holocaust?

Why don't you see the movie Obsession. You can see it for free via GOogle video They show some of his speeches in there. His comments are directed towards Jews.

its been done on another thread, but did he deny the holocaust happened? i mean he gets hung for saying the israelis abuse euro guilt of the event and simulatniously denies it happened? doesnt make sense. it sounds like im defending him, but he is beung lined up to be called the persian hitler, like what the white house does with everyone it has a problem with, saddam, milosovec etc. propaganda 101

The SR probably doesn't believe that Hitler had anything to do with the Holocaust, either.

There are many posters who feel that way. NS is a hotspot for neo-Nazis. It really kills this site's reputation.
GODWIN.

you are being pricks now. im a commited member of the anti-nazi leage and take exception to these.

debate what i said without calling me a nazi for having the temerity to disagree with you

behave or fuck off

its been done on another thread, but did he deny the holocaust happened? i mean he gets hung for saying the israelis abuse euro guilt of the event and simulatniously denies it happened? doesnt make sense. it sounds like im defending him, but he is beung lined up to be called the persian hitler, like what the white house does with everyone it has a problem with, saddam, milosovec etc. propaganda 101
Why don't you read the other posts in this thread? They make a good case for his denial. You sure seem to love defending enemies of the JEws.

its been done on another thread, but did he deny the holocaust happened? i mean he gets hung for saying the israelis abuse euro guilt of the event and simulatniously denies it happened? doesnt make sense. it sounds like im defending him, but he is beung lined up to be called the persian hitler, like what the white house does with everyone it has a problem with, saddam, milosovec etc. propaganda 101

So just ignore every single press clipping showed to you in regards to his comments about Israel. Believe what you will. We can not stop you. However, the truth is truth that he wants Israel to be destroyed. No spinning can deny that fact.