NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!

Oh, my rapture tastes so sweet... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06Mye1e0PA&search=iio%20rapture)

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!
Sounds like you have a perfectly good relationship with God. Don't sweat it. God's got a lot more understanding than people who make up rules about who gets into heaven and how.

Have you ever met this God fellow? If not then I don't see the point in apologising to him all the time. If God wanted you to be closer he would have sent you an invitation t visit him. If anything you should give the poor fellow some personal space. I'm sure he'd appreciate that.

You see, Tiger, you taking a big risk betting on only one deity. Why not make a few safe bets, eh?

Just so you know, not even all Christians agree in the interpretation of Revelations that calls for a Rapture and a Tribulation period. I'm not Christian, but I'd suggest that a healthy religious belief should be based on love, not fear. If you only believe in God because you're afraid that not doing so will doom you to being "left behind" in hell on Earth, then you need to learn to think for yourself.

Sounds like you have a perfectly good relationship with God. Don't sweat it. God's got a lot more understanding than people who make up rules about who gets into heaven and how.

...phew*wipes sweat from head*

Isn't the Rapture where Jesus comes and takes all the good Christians away?

Hey ... I'm all for living in a world without Christians ...

Left behind and proud of it!

Isn't the Rapture where Jesus comes and takes all the good Christians away?

Hey ... I'm all for living in a world without Christians ...

Left behind and proud of it!
Then they better take their shit with them. I'm not cleaning out a bunch of churches and books store shelves.

Sounds like you need a religion which makes fewer demands, or no religion at all.

Most religious ends of the world are unpleasantly coercive.

Then they better take their shit with them. I'm not cleaning out a bunch of churches and books store shelves.

They'd make great kindling for the celebratory bonfires. Just sayin'...

Then they better take their shit with them. I'm not cleaning out a bunch of churches and books store shelves.

I'd turn the churches into housing for the homeless.

Just sayin'...
...what we are all thinking. ;).

I say you should enjoy your youthful days and worry when your 35 if you don’t live life why would God give you it also isn’t waste a sin so take all the opportunities you can! (unless they involve drugs or anything that I shouldn’t tell you to do of course;) )

Didn't we just have this Rapture thread like 2 or 3 days ago? From a 13 year old? That can't go to church? But he will when he can drive???

Didn't we just have this Rapture thread like 2 or 3 days ago? From a 13 year old? That can't go to church? But he will when he can drive???
He was worried about his gay friend.

He was worried about his gay friend.

Yes, his "friend."

Yes, his "friend."

Ahahahahahahahaha. That's a good one. :)

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?

Yes, it will. Don't let anyone tell you anything else.

Yes, it will. Don't let anyone tell you anything else.
I don't know, a box of chocolates wouldn't hurt anybody.

He was worried about his gay friend.


Ah, right you are.
Early teen christians that are just waiting to drive to church seem to be popping in with all kinds of questions then.

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!The word rapture is not in the Bible. The concept of the rapture isn't in the Bible. It's not a Biblical teaching in the slightest. The concept of the rapture comes from a 19th century preacher who was a bit unstable, and it's been turned into a multi-million dollar industry by false christians like Tim LaHaye.

If your friend continues to pester you on the subject, ask her/him to show you the concept in the Bible--not other literature, just from the Bible. I guarantee you'll get a runaround.

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!
Belief is perhaps the most personal matter you will ever encounter. It's something you must do on your own. Keep in mind that most people adopt their beliefs from their parents or from others around them. Make sure that what you believe can stand up under scrutiny. I'm of the opinion that the unexamined belief is actually no belief at all.

Good luck with your search!

The word rapture is not in the Bible. The concept of the rapture isn't in the Bible. It's not a Biblical teaching in the slightest. The concept of the rapture comes from a 19th century preacher who was a bit unstable, and it's been turned into a multi-million dollar industry by false christians like Tim LaHaye.

If your friend continues to pester you on the subject, ask her/him to show you the concept in the Bible--not other literature, just from the Bible. I guarantee you'll get a runaround.

Agreed. Good point.

Ah, right you are.
Early teen christians that are just waiting to drive to church seem to be popping in with all kinds of questions then.
If we run this the right way we could make millions.

I think to say who will get into Heaven and who won't goes against the Thou Shall not Judge rule, only God himself can say who goes to Heaven or Hell.

And me.

Actually, the rapture happened about 2 weeks ago. So you're stuck with us for the ride. That's what happens when you don't capitalize God.

I talked to God and he explained that whole Rapture thingy. See, there are a whole lot of useless wastes of skin that jst pontificate all day and are unable to think and act in their own best interests without spending every waking moment 'surrndering to His will' and all that crap. So he's going to get rid of em. Send them to the showers and let the rest of us actually get about the business of living our lives and makng our own choices.

He's a pretty nice guy. We talked over pizza and beer. He likes anchovies, so we did a half and half. *bleah*

I think to say who will get into Heaven and who won't goes against the Thou Shall not Judge rule, only God himself can say who goes to Heaven or Hell.


indeed

Seems a little pointless to prepare for some 'rapture' event that will never happen, since we all know that only Mormons go to heaven.

Meh!

I lived through two dates that were supposed to be the rapture.

One time I did do a double take because the traffic to work was abnormally light that day. :D

Bring on the rapture!

More room for the rest of us!

While you lot are surfing on the lake of fire, I'll be playing pictionary with Jesus.

While you lot are surfing on the lake of fire, I'll be playing pictionary with Jesus.
Make sure you're on his team. He's quite handy with the magic marker.

Meh!

I lived through two dates that were supposed to be the rapture.

One time I did do a double take because the traffic to work was abnormally light that day. :D

Bring on the rapture!

More room for the rest of us!

Depending on the interpretations, it will only be 144,000 virgin males.

Either way, It's not going to make much of a dent in the population. We'ld probably only notice due to a lack of Star Trek convention attendees.

Don't you know that people who constantly beg for something are just annoying? That's why when the time comes God will ignore all you groveling christians begging for entry into heavan and invite us atheists instead.

The word rapture is not in the Bible. The concept of the rapture isn't in the Bible. It's not a Biblical teaching in the slightest. The concept of the rapture comes from a 19th century preacher who was a bit unstable, and it's been turned into a multi-million dollar industry by false christians like Tim LaHaye.

If your friend continues to pester you on the subject, ask her/him to show you the concept in the Bible--not other literature, just from the Bible. I guarantee you'll get a runaround.

True, but the Bible also says anything added will come to past, so...

While you lot are surfing on the lake of fire, I'll be playing pictionary with Jesus.

While you're playing board games with man with a funny beard, I'll be soaring as a being of pure energy through the multiple dimensions of the Q Continuum!

That's right, I'm a Trekkie. All bow at the altar of Roddenberry!

We'ld probably only notice due to a lack of Star Trek convention attendees.

Hey! I When I get my magical space being powers, you are so screwed! :p

Don't you know that people who constantly beg for something are just annoying? That's why when the time comes God will ignore all you groveling christians begging for entry into heavan and invite us atheists instead.

I don't "grovel". God doesn't wat slave, so I say that groveling is a sin.

True, but the Bible also says anything added will come to past, so...
Actually, Revelation curses any person who adds or subtracts from the words.

So, if I'm not Christian does that mean I can avoid this whole Rapture mess?

I'd really prefer it if us heathens could live it up and go to the afterlives of our Gods rather than be dragged in to some other God's fight.

Actually, Revelation curses any person who adds or subtracts from the words.

Yes and you don't call another punnishment getting added a curse?

So, if I'm not Christian does that mean I can avoid this whole Rapture mess?

I'd really prefer it if us heathens could live it up and go to the afterlives of our Gods rather than be dragged in to some other God's fight.
Hell would be eternity with Evangelical Christians.
*shudders*

Hell would be eternity with Evangelical Christians.
*shudders*
Evangelical Christians who speak with a really annoying drawl?

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!



Don't you just love it when someone takes it upon themselves to scare children half to death all for mind control? The only way the world's going to end is if the Fundies and the neocons blow us up. Quite frankly, I'd just as soon die as live in a world under their control. Frightening 13 year olds? These people have no shame.

Hell would be eternity with Evangelical Christians.*shudders*

And to think they call that heaven...

While you're playing board games with man with a funny beard, I'll be soaring as a being of pure energy through the multiple dimensions of the Q Continuum!

That's right, I'm a Trekkie. All bow at the altar of Roddenberry!





So you would be one of the 144K virgin males saved? :)

So you would be one of the 144K virgin males saved? :)

*cough*

umm...

Well, you see....

There was a, ah... a...

*quietly sneaks behind Kecibukia and bonks him on the head with a frying pan*

The word rapture is not in the Bible. The concept of the rapture isn't in the Bible. It's not a Biblical teaching in the slightest. The concept of the rapture comes from a 19th century preacher who was a bit unstable, and it's been turned into a multi-million dollar industry by false christians like Tim LaHaye.

If your friend continues to pester you on the subject, ask her/him to show you the concept in the Bible--not other literature, just from the Bible. I guarantee you'll get a runaround.


Can I get an amen? About time someone exposed that particular fraud. "The Rapture" isn't in the bible, folks.

*quietly sneaks behind Kecibukia and bonks him on the head with a frying pan*
While Kecibukia is out you can take care of that virginity business.

Can I get an amen? About time someone exposed that particular fraud. "The Rapture" isn't in the bible, folks.

Amen.

While Kecibukia is out you can take care of that virginity business.

Hmm.... HMMMMM......

Wait! You remember that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, where they ran into those slaver people, and at the end of the episode, Captain Picard lectured the aliens on how sexual assault was immoral? Yeah.

See, who needs the Bible? I'm guided by the simple principle of What Would Picard Do?

And the good Captain would never "take care of that virginity business" this way! For shame, Iztatepopotla, for shame.

*is so proud of himself because he has somehow discovered morality without supernatural help*

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ!

That is not 100% true. It is true that those who believe in the Savior Jesus Christ will go to heaven but those who are false Christians will also have to endure the 7 year tribulation along with everyone else.

I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Now this is indeed true and it warms my heart to know that you are a christian :)

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

It is wise to pray to God. Ask Him for guidance on difficult choices. Even do so on things that should be an easy choice. He will never steer you wrong. You may not understand it at first but it will become clear over time.

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?

Its a start.
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!

Good. And when you do, ask your pastor what you can do to help out the church in anyway.

Didn't we just have this Rapture thread like 2 or 3 days ago? From a 13 year old? That can't go to church? But he will when he can drive???

It was a few days ago yes and if memory serves me right, you never got back to me. By the way, it is the Book of Revelations thread.

Can I get an amen? About time someone exposed that particular fraud. "The Rapture" isn't in the bible, folks.
You must not be reading from the revised and edited edition.

The word rapture is not in the Bible.

Now this is true.

The concept of the rapture isn't in the Bible. It's not a Biblical teaching in the slightest.

Incorrect. The concept is there.

The concept of the rapture comes from a 19th century preacher who was a bit unstable, and it's been turned into a multi-million dollar industry by false christians like Tim LaHaye.

Again, not correct. There is historical references going back a few centuries prior to the 19th century about this.

If your friend continues to pester you on the subject, ask her/him to show you the concept in the Bible--not other literature, just from the Bible. I guarantee you'll get a runaround.

I could show you and him but then I do not believe it will do any good.

I think to say who will get into Heaven and who won't goes against the Thou Shall not Judge rule, only God himself can say who goes to Heaven or Hell.

This is also a good point.

Meh!

I lived through two dates that were supposed to be the rapture.

One time I did do a double take because the traffic to work was abnormally light that day. :D

Bring on the rapture!

More room for the rest of us!

Even more room when one fourth of the population is killed in World War III.

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!

going to church doesn't make you a better Christian any more than going to Mc Donalds makes you a better chicken nugget.

I haven't found 2 "brands" of Christianity that agree on the whole rapture/Revelations thingy, in fact there are about 3 schools of thought in my own church, it's not really all that important.

You gotta go back to the simple ABC's
Accept you are a sinner
Believe that Jesus died for your sins
Confess of your sins and ask for forgiveness
Dedicate your life to Christ.

after that it's all about growing, you are a new creature once you have accepted Christ, you don't have to worry any more about all the stuff in your past, or any of your future sins, being a Christian isn't about being sin-free it's about being free from the chains of sin.

I have to go to sleep now, I will reply more tomorrow, if you are interested. ;)

Yes and you don't call another punnishment getting added a curse?
My point is that by those words (which are apparently more a venting of frustration by the author at the sad state of transcription at the time than an actual curse on those who would add to a religion), people like Tim LaHaye and other rapturists have effectively condemned themselves to hell, because they're adding to the scripture.

going to church doesn't make you a better Christian any more than going to Mc Donalds makes you a better chicken nugget.

That last bit made me chuckle. I agree with it though.

I haven't found 2 "brands" of Christianity that agree on the whole rapture/Revelations thingy, in fact there are about 3 schools of thought in my own church, it's not really all that important.

That is true. There are 3 schools of thought surrounding the rapture. And no, they really are not that important but it is fun to learn all three of them and the evidence that they base it on.

You gotta go back to the simple ABC's
Accept you are a sinner
Believe that Jesus died for your sins
Confess of your sins and ask for forgiveness
Dedicate your life to Christ.

Agreed 100%

after that it's all about growing, you are a new creature once you have accepted Christ, you don't have to worry any more about all the stuff in your past, or any of your future sins, being a Christian isn't about being sin-free it's about being free from the chains of sin.

You are right on top of thinks mr/ms. Smunkeeville.

My point is that by those words (which are apparently more a venting of frustration by the author at the sad state of transcription at the time than an actual curse on those who would add to a religion), people like Tim LaHaye and other rapturists have effectively condemned themselves to hell, because they're adding to the scripture.

Actually, they are not adding anything to the scripture.

You go to heaven through faith in Jesus Christ, not by deeds. If you are a christian the Holy Spirit will make you want to do good. be wary of any one telling you when the world will end.

You go to heaven through faith in Jesus Christ, not by deeds. If you are a christian the Holy Spirit will make you want to do good. be wary of any one telling you when the world will end.

That is indeed true. In fact, we are to ignore anyone who thinks they know when the world is going to end.

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ!
I am a Christian and have spent the past year or so doing a rather intense study on the Rapture with some close friends of mine- and I am not buying in to it. There will come a time for the Harvest- but that will only happen once, by saying that there will be a Rapture you allow for it happen twice. I do believe that the antichrist will come to power- but I think that even those who were Christians before it will happen will be on earth for it.
I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.
So long as you have been born again in Christ, you are a Christian. And don't worry about the Rapture. If it happens that will be wonderful for us Christians to miss out on the end times, but if it doesn't we will all be down here wondered what went wrong. Be ready for it either way, and if you are a Christian who is praying and studying you should be fine. As you grow as a Christian your relationship with Christ will grow as well. If the Rapture were to happen even a Christian who had only just been born again would be taken to heaven.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?
Like I said, if you have been born again and are making an effort to become closer to God by praying, studying, and trying to his will out of love that relationship will naturally grow. In my life I have learned that a relationship with God grows through time just as a relationship with a friend would.

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
It sounds like you do- like it was said before to be born again use the ABCs, but from what you have told us it sounds like you already have.
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!
Being a Christian goes beyond going to church. Church does not make you a Christian, but I am glad to hear that you want too. If you want to talk more you can telegram me, I'd be happy to listen and offer what advice I can. I'll pray for your peace.

I am a Christian and have spent the past year or so doing a rather intense study on the Rapture with some close friends of mine- and I am not buying in to it. There will come a time for the Harvest- but that will only happen once, by saying that there will be a Rapture you allow for it happen twice. I do believe that the antichrist will come to power- but I think that even those who were Christians before it will happen will be on earth for it.

Now what do you base it on?

So long as you have been born again in Christ, you are a Christian. And don't worry about the Rapture. If it happens that will be wonderful for us Christians to miss out on the end times, but if it doesn't we will all be down here wondered what went wrong. Be ready for it either way, and if you are a Christian who is praying and studying you should be fine. As you grow as a Christian your relationship with Christ will grow as well. If the Rapture were to happen even a Christian who had only just been born again would be taken to heaven.

I agree entirely with this.

Like I said, if you have been born again and are making an effort to become closer to God by praying, studying, and trying to his will out of love that relationship will naturally grow. In my life I have learned that a relationship with God grows through time just as a relationship with a friend would.

Amen.

It sounds like you do- like it was said before to be born again use the ABCs, but from what you have told us it sounds like you already have.

Being a Christian goes beyond going to church. Church does not make you a Christian, but I am glad to hear that you want too. If you want to talk more you can telegram me, I'd be happy to listen and offer what advice I can. I'll pray for your peace.

That makes two of us.

Okay, it looks like some people need to actually read the Bible and see what it says before they insult it.

Yes, the "rapture" is not spoken of by name in the Bible. It does however, say that those who believe in Christ will one day be with him "in the blink of an eye". Split-second. No warning.

The only thing that gets you into heaven, and what the entire religion of Christianity boils down to is this: Do you accept the Creator, or not?
Those who say yes, will go to live in a place with him.
Those who say no, will go to live in a place where his presence is not.
And since "everything good comes from the Lord", wherever his presence is not is going to suck.

You don't have to do anything to go to heaven. Only believe. It stuns me that so many people think Christianity is such a hard religion or something. It's easy.

Simple as that.

Okay, it looks like some people need to actually read the Bible and see what it says before they insult it.

Yes, the "rapture" is not spoken of by name in the Bible. It does however, say that those who believe in Christ will one day be with him "in the blink of an eye". Split-second. No warning.

One of the best examples of this is when His coming is compared to like a thief in the night. You never know when he is going to come.

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!
Think of it as a relationship with another person. when you pray to God, is it only to ask for forgiveness or do you also thank Him for all the good that has happened? Do you just talk to him like you would your grandfather or even an older friend.

I just chat with him, tell him my problems and concerns as well as thanking him for anything good that happened to me. even telling him about some friends I made or even some of these threads here on general.

Just so you know, not even all Christians agree in the interpretation of Revelations that calls for a Rapture and a Tribulation period. I'm not Christian, but I'd suggest that a healthy religious belief should be based on love, not fear. If you only believe in God because you're afraid that not doing so will doom you to being "left behind" in hell on Earth, then you need to learn to think for yourself.

VERY important. What I've always found confusing about many religions are the fear tactics that surround them: so called "conversion by the sword".

You should take on a religion and practice it in your life because you wish to improve yourself, not because Robert J. Evangelist says you'll go to Hell if you don't accept his version of God.

Going beyond that: am I the only one who is tired of all of doomsaying? I mean on television, on the internet, in tabloids (which I don't believe BTW but just in context), by preachers, in books. I mean...are people LOOKING FORWARD to the end of the world. Are people going to yell "HALLELUJIA! PRAISE TEH LORD!" when people start walking around with 666 branded on their foreheads?

Personally I'd rather the world not end...It's fun...

Okay, it looks like some people need to actually read the Bible and see what it says before they insult it.

Yes, the "rapture" is not spoken of by name in the Bible. It does however, say that those who believe in Christ will one day be with him "in the blink of an eye". Split-second. No warning.

And I suppose there's only one way to understand that passage, and that you're absolutely certain that not only is that passage accurately translated, but that it's actually what the original writer wrote, that it was accurately transcribed and not changed by a scribe, and that the writer wasn't a psycho who everyone around him just thought was speaking to God.

Christianity is only simple if you're a simpleton.

And I suppose there's only one way to understand that passage, and that you're absolutely certain that not only is that passage accurately translated, but that it's actually what the original writer wrote, that it was accurately transcribed and not changed by a scribe, and that the writer wasn't a psycho who everyone around him just thought was speaking to God.

Christianity is only simple if you're a simpleton.

I am no simpleton The Nazz and I am a Christian. I am going to have to ask you for an apology.

I am no simpleton The Nazz and I am a Christian. I am going to have to ask you for an apology.
Didn't say you were a simpleton, necessarily. Parse that sentence out again and get back to me when you actually understand it. There won't be an apology coming, but you'll understand why one isn't necessary.

Hint: my point is that Christianity is not simple.

Didn't say you were a simpleton, necessarily. Parse that sentence out again and get back to me when you actually understand it. There won't be an apology coming, but you'll understand why one isn't necessary.

Hint: my point is that Christianity is not simple.

My apologies. You are right that it is not simple. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. It is late here.

Yes, the "rapture" is not spoken of by name in the Bible. It does however, say that those who believe in Christ will one day be with him "in the blink of an eye". Split-second. No warning.

Be with Christ eh? I guess that means that they'll be dead in the blink of an eye. I can imagine that with the right nudging, that could be achieved easily enough via Thermonuclear Airlines. :p

VERY important. What I've always found confusing about many religions are the fear tactics that surround them: so called "conversion by the sword".

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with ‘fearing’ the Lord…

Matt. 10:27-28
What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:4-5
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Personally I'd rather the world not end...It's fun...

As to saving the world or simply dismissing it’s importance…

Mark 8:35-38
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

Or to feel sorry for the loss of this world when God decides it's time is come to an end, (if it should be soon or a long time coming still I make no distinction) remember what is important.

Genesis 19:26
But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

Luke 17:31-35
On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot's wife! Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

Be with Christ eh? I guess that means that they'll be dead in the blink of an eye. I can imagine that with the right nudging, that could be achieved easily enough via Thermonuclear Airlines. :p

Actually, according to belief and scripture, those on earth who disappear will not be dead.

My apologies. You are right that it is not simple. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. It is late here.
De nada. The fact remains that many christians are simpletons, because they do think that christianity is a simple religion. The number of people who know 1% of the history of the early christian church and its various permutations is tiny--most people know what their pastors tell them and misunderstand half of that, and know little or nothing else. Any brief study of the history of Christianity will show even the most ardent believer that literally nothing is certain when it comes to Jesus's actual life, whether or not he was divine, and who wrote most of the Bible. And forget the possibility of getting the original text even in the Greek--it's been so corrupted over time that getting a master text is impossible. There are more discrepancies between the existing manuscripts of the New Testament than there are words in the NT itself. And that's before we even get into the issue of accurate translation and getting into the minds of the original writers. No wonder people just want to hear "believe and you'll be saved." It's a lot less effort.

Which was beside the point Jesus made over and over again. He preached that following him was going to be a trial, an arduous battle to remake one's self and that the battle would never end. So anyone who wants to say that following Christ's path is a simple thing to do is indeed a simpleton, and unworthy of the name he or she claims.

...
Christianity is only simple if you're a simpleton.

Mark10:15
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.

Or this one

Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then I should be glad to be a simpleton thank you very much.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with ‘fearing’ the Lord…

Matt. 10:27-28
What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:4-5
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.



As to saving the world or simply dismissing it’s importance…

Mark 8:35-38
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

Or to feel sorry for the loss of this world when God decides it's time is come to an end, (if it should be soon or a long time coming still I make no distinction) remember what is important.

Genesis 19:26
But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

Luke 17:31-35
On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot's wife! Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

I thank ye sir for bringing up these passages. But you must know that I do not pay much credence to the Bible. It is contradicory and, allow me to be honest, leaves far too much to the imagination. Everyone has their own interpretation. What one will look at as condemnation, the other will look upon as salvation.

Also, the Bible was written by men, not by God. I just do not find it logical to call it the Word of the Lord, even if it was "devinely inspired", because it conflicts far to much.

I believe in God as God's own rulebook (if that makes sense). I try to find God in my own way, rather than how any mortal would prefer me to. To me, the Bible is a guide, rather than a rulebook.

Or to feel sorry for the loss of this world when God decides it's time is come to an end, (if it should be soon or a long time coming still I make no distinction) remember what is important.

And the world is not important? I am sure that one day the world and humanity will be no more, but even if it is brought about by the Lord, I will still mourn its loss, though it be inevitable.

De nada. The fact remains that many christians are simpletons, because they do think that christianity is a simple religion. The number of people who know 1% of the history of the early christian church and its various permutations is tiny--most people know what their pastors tell them and misunderstand half of that, and know little or nothing else. Any brief study of the history of Christianity will show even the most ardent believer that literally nothing is certain when it comes to Jesus's actual life, whether or not he was divine, and who wrote most of the Bible. And forget the possibility of getting the original text even in the Greek--it's been so corrupted over time that getting a master text is impossible. There are more discrepancies between the existing manuscripts of the New Testament than there are words in the NT itself. And that's before we even get into the issue of accurate translation and getting into the minds of the original writers. No wonder people just want to hear "believe and you'll be saved." It's a lot less effort.

Which was beside the point Jesus made over and over again. He preached that following him was going to be a trial, an arduous battle to remake one's self and that the battle would never end. So anyone who wants to say that following Christ's path is a simple thing to do is indeed a simpleton, and unworthy of the name he or she claims.

I actually could not agree with you more. I do study what I can of the Early Church. I will admit that most of my studies does come from the Bible. It is difficult to really do any decent research on the Early Church.

And yes, being a Christian and following in Jesus's footsteps is indeed a trial. That is something that I do tell people that it is not going to be easy. That is where I lose most people because most people do indeed want things simple. Sometimes I wonder if I was born in the wrong age. :D

On that note, I am off to dream land. I will post more tomorrow. Good Night dear sir and may peace be with you.

Mark10:15
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.

Or this one

Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then I should be glad to be a simpleton thank you very much.

It does say that but do you have any idea if you truly want to follow in His steps, the trials you are going to have?

I actually could not agree with you more. I do study what I can of the Early Church. I will admit that most of my studies does come from the Bible. It is difficult to really do any decent research on the Early Church.

And yes, being a Christian and following in Jesus's footsteps is indeed a trial. That is something that I do tell people that it is not going to be easy. That is where I lose most people because most people do indeed want things simple. Sometimes I wonder if I was born in the wrong age. :D

On that note, I am off to dream land. I will post more tomorrow. Good Night dear sir and may peace be with you.

The Bolol needs sleep as well. For I will be seeing my doctor and it will be well over 100 degrees tommorrow...ugh...

Mark10:15
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.

Or this one

Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then I should be glad to be a simpleton thank you very much.
Nice the faith itself encourages people to be a simpleton rather then questioning it ... Why does that just make it all the worse to me

Nice the faith itself encourages people to be a simpleton rather then questioning it ... Why does that just make it all the worse to me

You're being reasonable, don't let it get to you, it will pass.

It does say that but do you have any idea if you truly want to follow in His steps, the trials you are going to have?

Where does it say that I need to be wise?

1 Corinthians 1:20-31
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

Where does it say that I need to be wise?

1 Corinthians 1:20-31
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
So he prefers week unwise simpletons … seems like the faith is filtering out all those that wont be suckered into acting like drones .

Don’t worry cults and telemarketers prey on the same demographic

I don't believe in the rapture. Never have, never will. Why should christians get special treatment in the last days? They are sinners too, deserving of the fire and doom to come. I think its just a ploy by fundies to seperate "us from them"

Isn't the Rapture where Jesus comes and takes all the good Christians away?

Hey ... I'm all for living in a world without Christians ...

Left behind and proud of it!
http://67.18.37.14/32/176/emo/Drinkers.gif

Actually, according to belief and scripture, those on earth who disappear will not be dead.
Ah, close enough, since the weight of their soul would be rendered irrelevant after "god" relinquishes their responsibility of judgment and consequence.

Being "taken up" in the rapture is the ultimate Darwin Award.

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!

You're on the right path, kid.

Don't worry about the naysayers - there is nothing useful to be learned from the sons of Hell, Agnostics do not know by definition, and atheists are utterly damned anyway.

Being "taken up" in the rapture is the ultimate Darwin Award.
http://www.sfatheists.com/activism/images/DarwinDay2005-15-Cake.jpg
(as seen in many churches this past year)

You're on the right path, kid.

Don't worry about the naysayers - there is nothing useful to be learned from the sons of Hell,Well it's a good thing god lets Satan get away with so much, then, isn't it? I mean, without a flood or burning to a crisp or any of that other nonsense ... plus all the COPIOUS *cough* evidence and biblical qualification :rolleyes:
Agnostics do not know by definition,Actually, it's more that they aren't so arrogant as to attempt to pigeonhole the semantic nature of the entire universe and all intersecting ties with one lump sum of belligerence and ignorance as this male god-fellow is supposed to be ...
and atheists are utterly damned anyway.No, the damning is for the people who need damning in order to vindicate their twisted, hateful misanthropy. Instead, think of atheists as having LEFT *you* BEHIND.

You're on the right path, kid.

Don't worry about the naysayers - there is nothing useful to be learned from the sons of Hell, Agnostics do not know by definition, and atheists are utterly damned anyway.Erm, no. Agnostics are merely aware that they and all others cannot know. ;)

SNIP


An agnostic is by definition someone who professes no opinion.

Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the (truth) values of certain claims—particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods, or deities—are unknown, inherently unknowable, or incoherent, and therefore, (some agnostics may go as far as to say) irrelevant to life. The term and the related agnostic were coined by Thomas Henry Huxley in 1869, and are also used to describe those who are unconvinced or noncommittal about the existence of deities as well as other matters of religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

See, we've just proven you're so full of bulldust that it comes out of your mouth.

Meanwhile, atheists have nothing useful to add.
Go rot in any way you please - I have no interest whatsoever in what the likes of you may have to say.

It's easier for God to reach down and pull you up into heaven if you still have a bone through your nose.

Erm, no. Agnostics are merely aware that they and all others cannot know. ;)


Saying you are aware that you cannot know,
pretty much includes knowing that you don't know ;)

As in: 'I cannot swim - therefore, I cannot be said to be swimming at all.'

Klar und wahr, oder nicht?

An agnostic is by definition someone who professes no opinion.

See, we've just proven you're so full of bulldust that it comes out of your mouth.How exactly did you do that to an analogy? Did i give a definition, or did i specify with ... oh wait, how'd that go ...

Actually, it's more that they aren't so arrogant as to attempt ... .... yep that's how it started.

Looks like you pwned yourself. Smooth. Must be that "The TRUTH" ipecac that so many so-called "faithful" are so keen on these days.
Besides, you don't even seem to understand the literal meaning of the word.
I'd pity you, but that's a waste of good suffering. ;)


Meanwhile, atheists have nothing useful to add. Oh sure they do. They make great targets for cowards who hide behind their delusions with pitchforks and damnations.
Go rot in any way you please - I have no interest whatsoever in what the likes of you may have to say.We'll both go the same, pardner. :)

It's easier for God to reach down and pull you up into heaven if you still have a bone through your nose.
Woohoo! Modern Primitives, unite!

SNIP

Fine. Now kindly go to north Korea, and leave us behind.

Meanwhile, atheists have nothing useful to add.
Go rot in any way you please - I have no interest whatsoever in what the likes of you may have to say.

Is it always the case that religious people are usually the most hateful and nasty? What's up with that?

Fine. Now kindly go to north Korea, and leave us behind.
I have no interest whatsoever in what the likes of you may have to say.
Wow.
Pwned yourself 2x in just about as many posts.
More of that "The Truth" stuff, eh?

Yup ... perhaps you should take a clue from the agnostics here. This looks kind of embarassing for you.

Is it always the case that religious people are usually the most hateful and nasty? What's up with that?
Might be the size of their world, their conflict resolution issues, and one or more of their role models.
Perhaps true insignificance is just too painful a void to have, so it gets filled with the typical humours.

And verily,a gigantic flaming Jim Morrison did come down from the sky, and dispensed much long-winded but poetic justice. The sinful shall be known by the mark of Metallica upon their foreheads, and the great flaming Jim Morrison shall smite them!

-The Gospel of St. Pauline

Saying you are aware that you cannot know,
pretty much includes knowing that you don't know ;)

As in: 'I cannot swim - therefore, I cannot be said to be swimming at all.'

Klar und wahr, oder nicht?Once you figure out how to reconcile the paradox, you will understand :)

And verily,a gigantic flaming Jim Morrison did come down from the sky, and dispensed much long-winded but poetic justice. The sinful shall be known by the mark of Metallica upon their foreheads, and the great flaming Jim Morrison shall smite them!

-The Gospel of St. Pauline
Jim Morrison was a flamer?

Jim Morrison was a flamer?

Way to kill my gospel.

Hmmm, clone mincing Jim Morrison... To Monsanto!

Way to kill my gospel.

Hmmm, clone mincing Jim Morrison... To Monsanto!
The dude'd likely seen a LOT i've never seen.
To wit ... onstage, the Oedipal breakdown :eek:

Yep, sometimes a person can go too far. Perhaps "flamer" isn't accurate enough.

Damnit, flaming Jim Morrison is too hot an image to get rid of!
:D
As for the 'mother... I WANT TO... Fu*insane noises*!', that's perfectly understandable. We've all been there, right?

Right?

Being "taken up" in the rapture is the ultimate Darwin Award.

"Rapture" is the carousel (http://www.snowcrest.net/fox/loganpics/movie/a6more/Picture5.JPG).

Best movie ever. :D

"Rapture" is the carousel (http://www.snowcrest.net/fox/loganpics/movie/a6more/Picture5.JPG).

Best movie ever. :D

I'm a bit scared.

As for the 'mother... I WANT TO... Fu*insane noises*!', that's perfectly understandable. We've all been there, right?

Right?
*tick*
*tock*
*tick*
*tock*

Uh, I need to see a therapist on a completely non oedipal-matter. >_>

<_<

Uh, I need to see a therapist on a completely non oedipal-matter. >_>

<_<
I would, of course, recuse myself on several grounds, most importantly ...
one: Have you seen my mother? :eek:
two: i'm not completely convinced i'm actually FROM her. I was one of those special "assistance" children.
three: after choking by three wraps of the umbilical cord on the way out, just about the LAST place i want to climb back up into is there.

I think the recording of Hendrix and Morrison playing FHITA should be spliced together with the end...

Mother, I want to... FUCK HER IN THE ASS! POPULAR FAVOURITE!

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!

First if you are 13 please realise that their are loads of ppl on NS who are either religious fanatics or not religious at all. I would suggest you talk to your parents about this. However as one of those who thinks that religion meddles in everything you should be aware that most religons claim that all non belivers/no church goers etc will go to hell. By my estimations that means everyone in the world will be going to hell and heaven will be empty!

You say you pray all the time. Thats more than most ppl who go to mass do. If the Christian god is as forgiving as he is portraited to be I think you'll be fine.

I think the recording of Hendrix and Morrison playing FHITA should be spliced together with the end...

Mother, I want to... FUCK HER IN THE ASS! POPULAR FAVOURITE!
Yes, i noted that on the other thread. :D

Is it always the case that religious people are usually the most hateful and nasty? What's up with that?


Probably short tempered with moonbayers and otherwise subversive and useless elements.

Probably short tempered with moonbayers and otherwise subversive and useless elements.
The first three words you got right, but then your ego kinda fluffed the rest of it up.
Again, pity reserved. But, bolded. :)

The first three words you got right, but then your ego kinda fluffed the rest of it up.
Again, pity reserved. But, bolded. :)


*grins* and what use might the pity of some atheist leftie be useful for?
It's not like you see 'em working out at the homeless shelters, drugprograms, or anything else along those lines.

Oh: exception: they do come as the takers - not as the givers.

By the fruit we know the trees.

Once you figure out how to reconcile the paradox, you will understand :)


That a fact?

I'm still waaaaiting for you to explain just how this love and hate thing works, especially the part where it is more meritorious to love nazis than to hate 'em.

See, I guess that is one of those paradoxes that I don't understand.
I can't see how loving nazis can be said to be meritorious at all.

*grins* and what use might the pity of some atheist leftie be useful for?How should i know? I'm not an atheist, nor a leftie. Rhetoric must be part of that whole "The Truth" thing - misassigning values and properties and then strawmanning an argument out of it, and then patting one's self on the back for guile :rolleyes:

It's not like you see 'em working out at the homeless shelters, drugprograms, or anything else along those lines.

Oh: exception: they do come as the takers - not as the givers.Well, y'all are probably playin' each other equally as suckers. It's happy time all around. (see above)

By the fruit we know the trees.Which explains GREATLY why Jesus cursed the fig tree. :D

How should i know? I'm not an atheist, nor a leftie. Rhetoric must be part of that whole "The Truth" thing - misassigning values and properties and then strawmanning an argument out of it, and then patting one's self on the back for guile :rolleyes:

Well, y'all are probably playin' each other equally as suckers. It's happy time all around. (see above)

Which explains GREATLY why Jesus cursed the fig tree. :D


Excuse me: that is all very nice: but how many atheists do you actually see with the volunteer aid-providers in this here County?
One. 'E' - who converted lately.

Excuse me: that is all very nice: but how many atheists do you actually see with the volunteer aid-providers in this here County?
One. 'E' - who converted lately.


Are you foolishly implying that Athiests dont volunteer thier time, or that Christians are the only ones that know about compassion?

Surely, this isnt what you were implying.

Excuse me: that is all very nice: but how many atheists do you actually see with the volunteer aid-providers in this here County?
One. 'E' - who converted lately.This County? o_O
Well, all jape aside, i'll point out the international nature of this particular forum ... so when you say "this here County" ...?
...plus, it isn't the kind of thing that comes up in a lot of places of conversation as to how one's deific/spiritual alignment is.
Conversion sometimes means just another distraction, or a political advantage, and not necessarily anything more than that.
So ... "E" ... is that the same as "X"? :p

Are you foolishly implying that Athiests dont volunteer thier time, or that Christians are the only ones that know about compassion?

Surely, this isnt what you were implying.


I am implying that just about any religious group on this here planet does the help-thy-unknown-neighbour-thing better than the rest of mankind.

That pretty much goes for Buddhists in Thailand, or Madrassa-students in Pakistan, or Evangelicals 'tween New Orleans and Texas.

Shucks - how many agnostics got involved in Abolition 150 years ago?

Surely, this isnt what you were implying.
Don't call him "Surely"! :p


Let's see how this plays out, i guess?

*tick*
*tock*
*tick*
-on second thought, scratch that. I can't handle all this "reeling". *yawns*

I am implying that just about any religious group on this here planet does the help-thy-unknown-neighbour-thing better than the rest of mankind.*snip

Help your unknown neighbour to make your religion grow? I have some issues with this sort of instrumentality.

Help your unknown neighbour to make your religion grow? I have some issues with this sort of instrumentality.

Bugger if I care.
If Florence Nightingale lowered the mortality-rate of british soldiers in the Crimea from 40 to 2% in order to grow more Methodists, more power to them.

If the Quakers helped fugitive slaves to grow more Quakers, more power to them.

Bugger if I care.
If Florence Nightingale lowered the mortality-rate of british soldiers in the Crimea from 40 to 2% in order to grow more Methodists, more power to them.

If the Quakers helped fugitive slaves to grow more Quakers, more power to them.

"Better" you said. Or merely more powerful?

I suppose if fascists helped people to grow more fascists you would applaud by the side?

"Better" you said. Or merely more powerful?

I suppose if fascists helped people to grow more fascists you would applaud by the side?

That depends on my view of fascists, not on the helping, right?

So your negative view of aid in this context would be based on your views on religion, right?

So your issues have little to do with the motives you implied, right?

*grins* and what use might the pity of some atheist leftie be useful for?
It's not like you see 'em working out at the homeless shelters, drugprograms, or anything else along those lines.

Oh: exception: they do come as the takers - not as the givers.

By the fruit we know the trees.I'd be willing to bet that as a percentage of their total numbers, you see more atheists/agnostics working at homeless shelters, drug programs, and charity groups than you see Christians or any other religious group. We are, after all, 10% of the population at best, in the US at least. Just because you're ignorant enough to buy into the stereotype of atheists as a bunch of nihilists who don't give a shit about their fellow humans doesn't make it true.

I'd be willing to bet that as a percentage of their total numbers, you see more atheists/agnostics working at homeless shelters, drug programs, and charity groups than you see Christians or any other religious group. We are, after all, 10% of the population at best, in the US at least. Just because you're ignorant enough to buy into the stereotype of atheists as a bunch of nihilists who don't give a shit about their fellow humans doesn't make it true.


I tried a headcount 2 months ago in this locality - especially at the homeless section.
Odd thing is, most of those whom I had pegged as agnostic or atheist before asking turned out not to be not so at all. Final count: 1 avowed atheist - out of some 50 volunteers alltogether.

*shrug* So I stand my ground.

*nudges* same reason why the groundwork of the DNC gets outdone by the RNC, really.

I tried a headcount 2 months ago in this locality - especially at the homeless section.
Odd thing is, most of those whom I had pegged as agnostic or atheist before asking turned out not to be not so at all. Final count: 1 avowed atheist - out of some 50 volunteers alltogether.

*shrug* So I stand my ground.And you no doubt consider that a valid "study" of the situation. :rolleyes: No chance that some of those you questioned were made nervous by your inquisition, I suppose, and decided to give you the answer you wanted as opposed to an accurate answer, huh? Not all of us atheists are "loud and proud." In many parts of the world, being an atheist openly means you lose out on job opportunities, social invitations, and can, in some cases, be bad for your health, so we're a bit circumspect.

*nudges* same reason why the groundwork of the DNC gets outdone by the RNC, really.
And this bit shows just how large an idiot you are. While the Democratic party isn't openly hostile to atheists, it's certainly not a haven for us either. The overwhelming majority of the party is practicing christians, no matter what you've heard from Limbaugh/O'Reilly/Deep Kimchi or whoever you're getting your information from.

I tried a headcount 2 months ago in this locality - especially at the homeless section.
Odd thing is, most of those whom I had pegged as agnostic or atheist before asking turned out not to be not so at all. Final count: 1 avowed atheist - out of some 50 volunteers alltogether.

*shrug* So I stand my ground.

*nudges* same reason why the groundwork of the DNC gets outdone by the RNC, really.

You aren't actually from North Yorkshire are you? I am guessing some kind of army brat from a US base there?

And you no doubt consider that a valid "study" of the situation. :rolleyes: No chance that some of those you questioned were made nervous by your inquisition, I suppose, and decided to give you the answer you wanted as opposed to an accurate answer, huh? Not all of us atheists are "loud and proud." In many parts of the world, being an atheist openly means you lose out on job opportunities, social invitations, and can, in some cases, be bad for your health, so we're a bit circumspect.


And this bit shows just how large an idiot you are. While the Democratic party isn't openly hostile to atheists, it's certainly not a haven for us either. The overwhelming majority of the party is practicing christians, no matter what you've heard from Limbaugh/O'Reilly/Deep Kimchi or whoever you're getting your information from.


I know that Dems have lots of practising Christians - you seem to forget that I am a Dem-supporter as well, albeit it at a distance.

Oh, and btw: have you ever wondered WHY the relief-groups with that earthquake in Pakistan were full of madrassa-kooks? Might it possibly be the same mechanism at work?

So I'm standing my ground: atheism, a tree with inedible fruit.

Spot any open atheist, and spot offal.

You aren't actually from North Yorkshire are you? I am guessing some kind of army brat from a US base there?

Ummm. No reply - must Fylingdales.

I know that Dems have lots of practising Christians - you seem to forget that I am a Dem-supporter as well, albeit it at a distance.

Oh, and btw: have you ever wondered WHY the relief-groups with that earthquake in Pakistan were full of madrassa-kooks? Might it possibly be the same mechanism at work?

So I'm standing my ground: atheism, a tree with inedible fruit.

Spot any open atheist, and spot offal.

:rolleyes:

http://www.megat.co.uk/wrong/wrong.php?r=ekrstuyz6&n=BogMarsh&c=%23FF0000&t=atheism

What the hell are madrassa-kooks?

:rolleyes:

http://www.megat.co.uk/wrong/wrong.php?r=ekrstuyz6&n=BogMarsh&c=%23FF0000&t=atheism

What the hell are madrassa-kooks?


Those who are e'er so happy to link weariing a hijab to elegibility to food aid.

Shucks - how many agnostics got involved in Abolition 150 years ago?

How many agnostics have engaged in Holy War? Jihad? Crusades, or inquisitions, or witchhunts?

How many agnostics have engaged in Holy War? Jihad? Crusades, or inquisitions, or witchhunts?

Let's combine the 2 strands:

How many agnostics have done anything but sit on their butt?

Game, set and match.

How many agnostics have done anything but sit on their butt?


How many agnostics are there in society?

Thier influence on society is proportional to thier size. Since agnostics are apparently not the majority in the United States, it should be obvious that they are not found as often in soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and other charitable facilities.

Surmising that agnostics do nothing but sit on thier butts is equal in logical reasoning to concluding that Asian-Americans are lazy because you don't see them at work as often as caucasian Americans.

Let's combine the 2 strands:

How many agnostics have done anything but sit on their butt?

Game, set and match.

Soooo... killing and destroying in the name of religion is better than doing nothing? What about Einstein? He was rather agnostic/atheist.

What about Einstein? He was rather agnostic/atheist.

This is true.

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Religion_and_Science_.281930.29)

This is true.

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Religion_and_Science_.281930.29)
Never leave off the beginning of that quote:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly..."

I love busting that out whenever some yahoo posts the quote about how "God does not play dice with the universe' as some kind of proof that Einstein was a believer. Einstein gets to kick their ass from beyond the grave! :D

Ok...I was talking to a friend about the rapture... She goes to church and I dont. I am only 13 so I really dont have a choice. When I was watching the History Channel it said all christains,ect....Will go to heaven and those who dont belive in god will have to surive the 7 years and be ruled by the anti christ! I am Christian,I belive in god and pray to him when I do something wrong and ask him to forgive me.. My friend says if you dont have a relationship with god you wont be brought up to heaven like everyone else.

Is praying to god too ask to forgive you a good relationship? I think so but I dont know if I can do more to be closer to god?

I belive that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I belive in Heaven and Hell. I belive that we most worship only god and their is only 1 god...Will that make the cut?
Please help

P.S I would go to church but I cant drive yet but when I can I will go every sunday!

I'm Christian, but I don't believe in the doctrine of the rapture. It says in the scriptures that in the perils of the last days that the righteous will hardly escape. They are taking this from the scriptures that talk about how the righteous will be caught up to meet him, but that will not happen till the actual comming of Christ.

Men go far astray on this point because they study the scriptures and lean too much on their own understanding, and draw meanings that were never intended when God gave those words to inspired men. If you want to understand the scriptures you have to appeal unto God for understanding, otherwise you may come to conclusions that are far from the truth.

I fear that many Christians will find themselves unprepaired when the calamities of the last days come upon them. They having believed a false doctrine that they would be taken to heaven and spared these things. They will many of them lose their faith, or think that they have been left behind and dispair. It is a lie and it will yet do much harm unto those that believe it.

I could give scriptural referances for my position, but I am late for work and don't have time at the moment.

Let's combine the 2 strands:

How many agnostics have done anything but sit on their butt?

Well, if we're talking about people who self-identify as agnostic, then:

Margaret Atwood, Antonio Banderas, Susie Bright, Vincent Bugliosi, Robert X. Cringely, Clarence Darrow, Charles Darwin, Alan Dershowitz, Richard Dreyfuss, Umberto Eco, Timothy Ferris, Carrie Fisher, Stephen Jay Gould, Matt Groening, Bob Guccione, David Horowitz, Bob Hoskins, Robert Jastrow, Matt Johnson, Larry King, Tony Kushner, Dave Matthews, Larry Niven, Neil Peart, Sean Penn, Roman Polanski, Bertrand Russell, Carl Sagan, Dan Savage, James Taylor, Charles Templeton, Uma Thurman, Robert Anton Wilson, Stephen Hawking, Thomas Huxley, Piers Anthony, Bill Nye...

Want me to keep going?

Well, if we're talking about people who self-identify as agnostic, then:

Margaret Atwood, Antonio Banderas, Susie Bright, Vincent Bugliosi, Robert X. Cringely, Clarence Darrow, Charles Darwin, Alan Dershowitz, Richard Dreyfuss, Umberto Eco, Timothy Ferris, Carrie Fisher, Stephen Jay Gould, Matt Groening, Bob Guccione, David Horowitz, Bob Hoskins, Robert Jastrow, Matt Johnson, Larry King, Tony Kushner, Dave Matthews, Larry Niven, Neil Peart, Sean Penn, Roman Polanski, Bertrand Russell, Carl Sagan, Dan Savage, James Taylor, Charles Templeton, Uma Thurman, Robert Anton Wilson, Stephen Hawking, Thomas Huxley, Piers Anthony, Bill Nye...

Want me to keep going?


Game set and match to Bottle

Where does it say that I need to be wise?

So what about those who are Christians and are wise? Do they fall under the verse you quoted? I do not believe so.

I don't believe in the rapture. Never have, never will. Why should christians get special treatment in the last days? They are sinners too, deserving of the fire and doom to come. I think its just a ploy by fundies to seperate "us from them"
I am not going to address your nonbelief of the rapture because like I said it's unimportant whether it happens or not (or it's unimportant to Christians) but the premise of your unbelief is interesting to me.

Yes Christians are sinners, but we are adopted in to God's family, we would recieve special treatment (assuming there is a case for it) because of that fact.

and while I would rather you read the whole chapter for contex (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&version=31)t, here is a small exerpt.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22

You're on the right path, kid.

Don't worry about the naysayers - there is nothing useful to be learned from the sons of Hell, Agnostics do not know by definition, and atheists are utterly damned anyway.

I do not think we can save people if you are constently fire and brimstone telling them if they do not accept Christ they go to hell.

I do not think we can save people if you are constently fire and brimstone telling them if they do not accept Christ they go to hell.
It's true though:p anyway, I agree with you. I don't like the church down the street from me, I went once it's like going to one of those timeshare presentations, it's "you are going to hell unless you walk the isle and fill out a card" and then the preacher says "do you see a sinner around you? grab them by the hand, ask them, "if you died right now would you go to heaven?" if you hear anything but yes, bring them to me"

:rolleyes: yeah, a commitment made out of fear, or under tons of pressure is barely a commitment at all. That's why shotgun marriages don't last.

Fine. Now kindly go to north Korea, and leave us behind.

Turn down the rhetoric BogMarsh. You are giving the rest of us Christians a bad name.

Is it always the case that religious people are usually the most hateful and nasty? What's up with that?

Not all of us. Just the most extreme Christians it seems that have that type of problem.

I do not think we can save people if you are constently fire and brimstone telling them if they do not accept Christ they go to hell.
So you prefer to lie to them?

Look, if you believe non-Christians will burn in Hell, then have the guts to say so. If you believe that I deserve to be tortured for all eternity for being agnostic, then be strong enough to say it to my face. If you are comfortable worshipping a God who would treat your fellow humans in that manner, then don't hide it. Don't hide what you are trying to convert people to. Don't lie to them about the God you are trying to convince them to worship.

On the other hand, if you worship a God who doesn't sentence people to an eternity of torture for the crime of being non-Christian, then you certainly should mention that in your sales pitch. :D

As you're young...I'll be a bit gentle with this...the revelation of St. John is not a forecast...it is an explanation of how the world appears to be...if you look at any point in history...the four horsemen are abroad...can you name one day when there hasn't been war...famine...pestilence...or plague...somewhere on earth....???
Simple answer....NO....
The thing to remember about the God of whom you speak...he is all encompassing.....he is everywhere...and that includes being in those the christians would call sinners.....he is also all compassionate....he gave his son so that all may enter heaven....ALL...
those that beg for rapture so that the wicked shall be punished misunderstand....the wicked are being punished...they are not living in a state of grace....which is as close to hell as you can get without actually being there..
The main thing to remember...you are free to believe whatever you choose...but what you do attests to your belief

First if you are 13 please realise that their are loads of ppl on NS who are either religious fanatics or not religious at all.

And what about those of us who are not fanatics?

I would suggest you talk to your parents about this.

I agree to this.

However as one of those who thinks that religion meddles in everything you should be aware that most religons claim that all non belivers/no church goers etc will go to hell. By my estimations that means everyone in the world will be going to hell and heaven will be empty!

What makes you think that?

You say you pray all the time. Thats more than most ppl who go to mass do. If the Christian god is as forgiving as he is portraited to be I think you'll be fine.

Agreed.

Probably short tempered with moonbayers and otherwise subversive and useless elements.

Now now. There is no need for such behavior. Especially from one who thinks himself a Christian. We are supposed to love our neighbor and help them. Not insult them as you have constantly done.

So you prefer to lie to them?

Look, if you believe non-Christians will burn in Hell, then have the guts to say so. If you believe that I deserve to be tortured for all eternity for being agnostic, then be strong enough to say it to my face. If you are comfortable worshipping a God who would treat your fellow humans in that manner, then don't hide it. Don't hide what you are trying to convert people to. Don't lie to them about the God you are trying to convince them to worship.

On the other hand, if you worship a God who doesn't sentence people to an eternity of torture for the crime of being non-Christian, then you certainly should mention that in your sales pitch. :D
I don't prefer to lie, in fact I will tell them. I don't like the high pressure "let's sell these sinners on God" type of thing that goes on. In an attempt to be respectful of other's rights to believe what they wish (that is totally independent of what I think is right) I do keep my mouth shut a hell of a lot of the time. I don't do the street preaching "you are going to burn" type of thing. I do have a heart for evangelism, I go on mission trips, I share the gospel, I am not going to do it like a used car salesman though, God is worth more to me than something I am trying to sell at a garage sale, and if you listen to the "high pressure preachers" that's what it sounds like they are trying to do, talk up God, make Christianity sound great enough that you have to have it, sell it to you, and then move onto another "mark" once they think you are sold on the idea. That's just not the way I work .

I'd be willing to bet that as a percentage of their total numbers, you see more atheists/agnostics working at homeless shelters, drug programs, and charity groups than you see Christians or any other religious group. We are, after all, 10% of the population at best, in the US at least. Just because you're ignorant enough to buy into the stereotype of atheists as a bunch of nihilists who don't give a shit about their fellow humans doesn't make it true.

There is some truth in what you say. Some.

Not all of us. Just the most extreme Christians it seems that have that type of problem.

As an Atheist, this is something that I do recognize.

Am I bitter about some of the things that the faithful of various religions have said to me? Yes. Petty as it may be, I must admit that yes, I am.

However, I am not bitter enough to claim that all persons of faith are horrible, hate spewing monsters. As with all sections of society, there are people of every stripe in religious circles. People of religious faiths, just like Agnostics and Atheists and everyone else, can be great people to be with.

It's true though:p anyway, I agree with you.

Yea it is true :D

I don't like the church down the street from me, I went once it's like going to one of those timeshare presentations, it's "you are going to hell unless you walk the isle and fill out a card" and then the preacher says "do you see a sinner around you? grab them by the hand, ask them, "if you died right now would you go to heaven?" if you hear anything but yes, bring them to me"

:rolleyes: yeah, a commitment made out of fear, or under tons of pressure is barely a commitment at all. That's why shotgun marriages don't last.

And the rest of us level headed Christians wonder why we get the cold sholder :(

As you're young...I'll be a bit gentle with this...the revelation of St. John is not a forecast...it is an explanation of how the world appears to be...if you look at any point in history...the four horsemen are abroad...can you name one day when there hasn't been war...famine...pestilence...or plague...somewhere on earth....???
Simple answer....NO....

Do you have proof that it is not a forecast?

The thing to remember about the God of whom you speak...he is all encompassing.....he is everywhere...and that includes being in those the christians would call sinners.....he is also all compassionate....he gave his son so that all may enter heaven....ALL...

That is indeed correct.

those that beg for rapture so that the wicked shall be punished misunderstand....the wicked are being punished...they are not living in a state of grace....which is as close to hell as you can get without actually being there..

Somewhat a true statement. On the flip side of that, Christians on Earth go through the trial of this world to receive their reward in the next.

The main thing to remember...you are free to believe whatever you choose...but what you do attests to your belief

Agreed.

I don't prefer to lie, in fact I will tell them. I don't like the high pressure "let's sell these sinners on God" type of thing that goes on. In an attempt to be respectful of other's rights to believe what they wish (that is totally independent of what I think is right) I do keep my mouth shut a hell of a lot of the time. I don't do the street preaching "you are going to burn" type of thing. I do have a heart for evangelism, I go on mission trips, I share the gospel, I am not going to do it like a used car salesman though, God is worth more to me than something I am trying to sell at a garage sale, and if you listen to the "high pressure preachers" that's what it sounds like they are trying to do, talk up God, make Christianity sound great enough that you have to have it, sell it to you, and then move onto another "mark" once they think you are sold on the idea. That's just not the way I work .

Keep up the good work Smunkeeville.:)

I must admit I had never realised that Blondie was so popular with US Christians.

As an Atheist, this is something that I do recognize.

Am I bitter about some of the things that the faithful of various religions have said to me? Yes. Petty as it may be, I must admit that yes, I am.

Nothing wrong with that. I will admit that there were times that I was bitter about things that people said about me and about my religion as well. It is human nature I suppose.

However, I am not bitter enough to claim that all persons of faith are horrible, hate spewing monsters. As with all sections of society, there are people of every stripe in religious circles. People of religious faiths, just like Agnostics and Atheists and everyone else, can be great people to be with.

Agreed with this 100%. Ever part of society has its low-lifes and its "saints". It is because of the low-lifes that people get the wrong impression of what that society truly is.

Oh those ain't the ones that be going! He's taking the good Christians not Holy Posers.

Then they better take their shit with them. I'm not cleaning out a bunch of churches and books store shelves.

I don't prefer to lie, in fact I will tell them. I don't like the high pressure "let's sell these sinners on God" type of thing that goes on. In an attempt to be respectful of other's rights to believe what they wish (that is totally independent of what I think is right) I do keep my mouth shut a hell of a lot of the time.

That's totally reasonable. Where I come from, it's called "good manners."


I don't do the street preaching "you are going to burn" type of thing. I do have a heart for evangelism, I go on mission trips, I share the gospel, I am not going to do it like a used car salesman though, God is worth more to me than something I am trying to sell at a garage sale, and if you listen to the "high pressure preachers" that's what it sounds like they are trying to do, talk up God, make Christianity sound great enough that you have to have it, sell it to you, and then move onto another "mark" once they think you are sold on the idea. That's just not the way I work .
To me, the stigma against "used car salesmen" is all about the lies. Used car salesmen (in the stereotype) trick customers into buying something. They mislead the buyer into believing they're getting something different than what they really are getting.

Whether or not you believe in aggressive sales tactics is another matter. As long as you are being honest about your "product," how you choose to sell it is simply a matter of personal preference.

Personally, I'd go for aggressive sales tactics if I were a "true believer." If I believed that people would be sent to a torture dimension for all eternity, but that I knew of a way to save them, then I'd be one aggressive fucker in trying to win them over. I'm very aggressive in standing up for the lives and safety of living human beings on Earth, so I'd have to be that aggressive times infinity if I were dealing with issues of Heaven and Hell (since Heaven and Hell will last for eternity).

That's totally reasonable. Where I come from, it's called "good manners."
yep.


To me, the stigma against "used car salesmen" is all about the lies. Used car salesmen (in the stereotype) trick customers into buying something. They mislead the buyer into believing they're getting something different than what they really are getting.
well, a LOT of the high pressure churches around here I feel are lying by not telling the whole story. It would be like a car salesman saying "here is a 2006 pickup truck for free" and then failing to mention that it doesn't run without human power. They sell a personal relationship with Christ as filling out a card, and don't tell you what goes after that, about the work, the work that is true in any relationship, they sell it like a "become a Christian and your life will be perfect" when that's just not true. I feel like it's a disservice to the church body as a whole, to have people running around feeling like they were lied to.

Whether or not you believe in aggressive sales tactics is another matter. As long as you are being honest about your "product," how you choose to sell it is simply a matter of personal preference.

Personally, I'd go for aggressive sales tactics if I were a "true believer." If I believed that people would be sent to a torture dimension for all eternity, but that I knew of a way to save them, then I'd be one aggressive fucker in trying to win them over. I'm very aggressive in standing up for the lives and safety of living human beings on Earth, so I'd have to be that aggressive times infinity if I were dealing with issues of Heaven and Hell (since Heaven and Hell will last for eternity).
there comes a point where aggressive sales tactics are no longer about the product, but about making the sell, I am trying to avoid that, I can be passionate, and assertive when it comes to evangelizing, but I don't want to come off as insincere, and when you spend all your time trying to "sell God" and not caring about people and trying to help them, then you come off as someone who wants action from them instead of someone who wants to help, it's high pressure and I want none of it.

However, I am not bitter enough to claim that all persons of faith are horrible, hate spewing monsters. As with all sections of society, there are people of every stripe in religious circles. People of religious faiths, just like Agnostics and Atheists and everyone else, can be great people to be with.
I think it's important to remember that a person's religion reflects their personality. Most people seem to think it's the other way around; they think that being Christian makes somebody a good person, or that being atheist makes somebody smart, or something like that. I don't think that's true at all.

I think people choose their religious/spiritual/moral beliefs based on their own internal compass. A horrible person can be horrible whether they are atheist or Christian or neither. A good person can be good whether or not they believe in gods.

You see this all the time in General Forum discussions of religion: there's plenty of material in Christianity that can be used to support rotten things...but the only people who are interested in doing so are the people who wanted to do rotten things to begin with. There are some people who are looking for excuses for their own behavior, and they often seize on religion (or atheism) as their excuse.

That a fact? I don't know. But I do know that I don't know. ;)

I'm still waaaaiting for you to explain just how this love and hate thing works, especially the part where it is more meritorious to love nazis than to hate 'em.Oh that. Someone that is capable of feeling love for his fellow men that have sunk so deep (without plunging himself into their twisted ideology) is slightly more meritous than someone that goes out and hates them for all they are worth. Now of course, you were the one to bring this up. All I said was that loving people for being the same is more meritous than hating people for being different. Loving Nazis would be a false analogy in this case, considering that whoever would be doing the loving would be the same as the person they love, hence it would have to be two Nazis loving eachother. And two Nazis loving eachother is slightly more meritous than someone who is not a Nazi hating a Nazi for being different, don't you think? ;)

See, I guess that is one of those paradoxes that I don't understand. I know. I don't have the time to explain everything though. I'm in the process of moving.
I can't see how loving nazis can be said to be meritorious at all.A christian would. There's this part in the Bible that talks about loving your enemies.

I don't know. But I do know that I don't know. ;)

Oh that. Someone that is capable of feeling love for his fellow men that have sunk so deep (without plunging himself into their twisted ideology) is slightly more meritous than someone that goes out and hates them for all they are worth. Now of course, you were the one to bring this up. All I said was that loving people for being the same is more meritous than hating people for being different. Loving Nazis would be a false analogy in this case, considering that whoever would be doing the loving would be the same as the person they love, hence it would have to be two Nazis loving eachother. And two Nazis loving eachother is slightly more meritous than someone who is not a Nazi hating a Nazi for being different, don't you think? ;)

I know. I don't have the time to explain everything though. I'm in the process of moving.
A christian would. There's this part in the Bible that talks about loving your enemies.
En bref: no sir, I don't think so.

I happen to have read those apostolic letters that advise you, if not order you, not to forgive a sin unto death.

En bref: no sir, I don't think so.

I happen to have read those apostolic letters that advise you, if not order you, not to forgive a sin unto death.



You, sir, are a perfect example of the truth in the second quote in my sig.

So what about those who are Christians and are wise? Do they fall under the verse you quoted? I do not believe so.

Are they saved because the world considers them wise? Or are they saved through Christ and Christ alone? As the verse said, if a man boasts, let him boast through Christ. There is no boasting of the wise Christian over the simpleton Christian, not in God's eyes.

1 Corinthians 1:18-19
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Are they saved because the world considers them wise? Or are they saved through Christ and Christ alone? As the verse said, if a man boasts, let him boast through Christ. There is no boasting of the wise Christian over the simpleton Christian, not in God's eyes.

Did I say there was boasting of a wise Christian over a simpleton Christian? No I did not. I just asked you what about a Wise Christian? Are they destined to be destroyed even if they give thanks to God for the wisdom they have received by His hand?

Did I say there was boasting of a wise Christian over a simpleton Christian? No I did not. I just asked you what about a Wise Christian? Are they destined to be destroyed even if they give thanks to God for the wisdom they have received by His hand?

I am not the judge, but Jesus said that we have to believe and become like children.

I think comparing a wise man to a rich man would be a fair comparison in this situation, in as much the same way as a rich man has “much to give up,” it is hard for him to enter the kingdom of heaven, it is the same for a wise man, he has “much to give up” before it is easy for him to enter the kingdom of heaven since he must do so like a child.

But thankfully, like it is for a rich man, it is also for a wise man, Matthew 19:26, “Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

(BTW/FYI: I in no way, none whatsoever, think of my posts directed at you as a reproach or an accounting of any kind, if that is the way you are taking it I apologize, my taking this position was, and continues to be, intended purely as a reminder to all of us of what the Scripture actually says about Christianity and worldly wisdom...)

I am not the judge, but Jesus said that we have to believe and become like children.

And Children can not get wisdom from their parents?

I think comparing a wise man to a rich man would be a fair comparison in this situation, is as much as a rich man has “much to give up” and it is hard for him to enter the kingdom of heaven, it is the same for a wise man, he has “much to give up” before it is easy for him to enter the kingdom of heaven since he must do so like a child.

So you are basically saying that a Christian can not be wise. Is that what you are saying?

But thankfully, like it is for a rich man, it is also for a wise man, Matthew 19:26, “Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

No kidding.

(BTW/FYI: I in no way, none whatsoever, think of my posts directed at you as a reproach or an accounting of any kind, if that is the way you are taking it I apologize, my taking this position was, and continues to be, intended purely as a reminder to all of us of what the Scripture actually says about Christianity and worldly wisdom...)

No it is not how I am taking it but I am trying to make you think about what you are saying. If you just accept that Christians can not be wise then what is the purpose of school? After all, it is at school that we gain knowledge and wisdom. It is how we learn about History and what came before us. It is at school that preachers become preachers so if we are not allowed to be wise, then what is the purpose of having bible schools who turn out preachers? After all they are supposed to be wise in the ways of teaching about the Lord Savior.

And Children can not get wisdom from their parents?

So you are basically saying that a Christian can not be wise. Is that what you are saying?

Not exactly.

No it is not how I am taking it but I am trying to make you think about what you are saying. If you just accept that Christians can not be wise then what is the purpose of school? After all, it is at school that we gain knowledge and wisdom. It is how we learn about History and what came before us. It is at school that preachers become preachers so if we are not allowed to be wise, then what is the purpose of having bible schools who turn out preachers? After all they are supposed to be wise in the ways of teaching about the Lord Savior.

There is room for wisdom at the Table of Christianity...

James 3:13-18
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

Consider also...

Not only did Jesus never mention the Rapture, it's not even in John's Revelations.

Consider also...

Not only did Jesus never mention the Rapture, it's not even in John's Revelations.
not that I agree with them, but there are people (http://www.raptureready.com/rap100.html) who would disagree with that statement.

Consider also...

Not only did Jesus never mention the Rapture, it's not even in John's Revelations.

Maybe not, but it does say this:

2 Peter 3:3-7
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Consider also...

Not only did Jesus never mention the Rapture, it's not even in John's Revelations.

It is because it need not be said. And yes, Jesus does talk about the Rapture but does not come out and say rapture. He says he'll come like a thief in the night so be ready for you do not know when that day will come. It is even stated that those who have died (or gone to sleep) will be the first to be called up followed by the living believers.

Maybe not, but it does say this:

2 Peter 3:3-7

I've always thought that passage was contradicted by the original statement in Genesis 8:21:

The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done.

No mention of Him reserving fire as an option in the apocalypse.

I've always thought that passage was contradicted by the original statement in Genesis 8:21:

The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done.

No mention of Him reserving fire as an option in the apocalypse.

By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed

Not contradictory at all. Also, have you read what some of the judgments are? They deal primarily with fire.

By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed

Not contradictory at all. Also, have you read what some of the judgments are? They deal primarily with fire.

They also seem to involve diseases and the destruction water, earth, even the stars in the sky to scare the remaining people into repentance.

Read that again and note the "never". He says He will never curse the ground again because of man, yet most of the judgements wreak terrible havok on the Earth for man's sinfulness. That part has always seemed most at odds with Revalation, IMO.

They also seem to involve diseases and the destruction water, earth, even the stars in the sky to scare the remaining people into repentance.

Read that again and note the "never". He says He will never curse the ground again because of man, yet most of the judgements wreak terrible havok on the Earth for man's sinfulness. That part has always seemed most at odds with Revalation, IMO.

And how will be cursing the ground with the judgments? The judgments were prophecied all throughout the Bible.

And how will be cursing the ground with the judgments? The judgments were prophecied all throughout the Bible.

Whether or not the judgements are prophecied throughout the Bible is a moot point. God said he would not curse the ground again, and later claims in Revalation are that the ground, sea, and sky will be struck because of God's wrath against man.

Revelation 8:7-9:

The first angel sounded his trumpet and there came hail mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. The second angel sounded his trumpet and somethin glike a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

How is burning the earth and turning the sea to blood not cursing it?

Whether or not the judgements are prophecied throughout the Bible is a moot point.

Actually it is very relevent.

God said he would not curse the ground again, and later claims in Revalation are that the ground, sea, and sky will be struck because of God's wrath against man.

But is not a curse. It is a judgment. Much like the 10 plagues of Egypt were not actual curses.

Revelation 8:7-9:

The first angel sounded his trumpet and there came hail mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. The second angel sounded his trumpet and somethin glike a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

How is burning the earth and turning the sea to blood not cursing it?

Its called a judgment? Judgments do not equal cursing.

Its called a judgment? Judgments do not equal cursing.
was what happened with the flood and Noah a curse or a judgement?

was what happened with the flood and Noah a curse or a judgement?

That is a far more interesting question to ask and one that I do not have an answer to for I have not studied the great flood in any detail.

Actually it is very relevent.

But is not a curse. It is a judgment. Much like the 10 plagues of Egypt were not actual curses.

Its called a judgment? Judgments do not equal cursing.
In definition, they mean the same thing:

Judgment
n.
1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.
2.
1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.
2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.
3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.
3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.
4. Law.
1. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.
2. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.
3. A writ in witness of such an act.
5. An assertion of something believed.
6. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.
7. Judgment The Last Judgment.
Since the discussion here is about Revelation, 6 and 7 seem to fit the definition of judgment as you've used it.

Curse
n.
1.
1. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
2. The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.
2. One that is accursed.
3. A source or cause of evil; a scourge: “Selfishness is the greatest curse of the human race” (William Ewart Gladstone).
4. A profane word or phrase; a swearword.
5. Ecclesiastical. A censure, ban, or anathema.
6. Slang. Menstruation. Used with the.
Looking at the definition of curse and judgment, they are the same. Just because the word changes, it doesn't mean the result isn't the same. Call it a judgment or a curse, the earth suffers because of man, and God had said that He would never do that after the Flood, yet Revelation claims the earth will suffer. Do you see the contradiction now?

Whether or not the judgements are prophecied throughout the Bible is a moot point. God said he would not curse the ground again, and later claims in Revalation are that the ground, sea, and sky will be struck because of God's wrath against man.

*snipped part about Revelations quotes smiting the earth*

God does not guarantee the eternal blissful existence of the earth forever more in Genesis. We have to finish what it is saying to understand fully...

Genesis 8: last bit of 21 and 22
And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

"As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease."

And then it clarifies completely what has been promised in the continuing story in Chapter 9…

Genesis 9:11-15
I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life.

There is no contradiction here and there is no promise that the earth will last forever. Only that it won't be entirely wiped out by a flood again.

In definition, they mean the same thing:


Since the discussion here is about Revelation, 6 and 7 seem to fit the definition of judgment as you've used it.


Looking at the definition of curse and judgment, they are the same. Just because the word changes, it doesn't mean the result isn't the same. Call it a judgment or a curse, the earth suffers because of man, and God had said that He would never do that after the Flood, yet Revelation claims the earth will suffer. Do you see the contradiction now?

I can see where you are going but I do not believe that they mean the samething. The two definitions can go either way so why do we just agree to disagree?

God does not guarantee the eternal blissful existence of the earth forever more in Genesis. We have to finish what it is saying to understand fully...

-Snip-

Genesis 9:11-15
[indent]I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. [indent]

There is no contradiction here and there is no promise that the earth will last forever. Only that it won't be entirely wiped out by a flood again.

So, first God says he will never curse the ground again, then he makes a convenant in which he only foregoes flooding? Do the words of God only carry force because he has made them into a covenant, then, or do all of his words as written in the Bible have equal weight? In other words, does this passage render the earlier part moot?

I can see where you are going but I do not believe that they mean the samething. The two definitions can go either way so why do we just agree to disagree?

If you like.

So, first God says he will never curse the ground again, then he makes a convenant in which he only foregoes flooding? Do the words of God only carry force because he has made them into a covenant, then, or do all of his words as written in the Bible have equal weight? In other words, does this passage render the earlier part moot?

Try as one might, we can't rip sentences out of stories, or rip contracts in half and then claim that they have the full weight meaning still in them.

It would be like me taking piecemeal quotes of yours, to change your intended meaning to what I want you to say...

You stand behind all of your words, but you never said what I misquoted you saying. Likewise, I might misunderstand what you said and it’s my fault, not your broken promise/word at fault because you didn’t break your word.

Try as one might, we can't rip sentences out of stories, or rip contracts in half and then claim that they have the full weight meaning still in them.

It would be like me taking piecemeal quotes of yours, to change your intended meaning to what I want you to say...

You stand behind all of your words, but you never said what I misquoted you saying. Likewise, I might misunderstand what you said and it’s my fault, not your broken promise/word at fault because you didn’t break your word.

I meant to say that two different statements have been made in that part of Genesis, and it seems to me they are contradictory.

Genesis 8:21-22:

The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

"As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease."

Genesis 9:11-15

I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life.

In the first, the ground will never be cursed and the living things will never be destroyed. In the second, a promise is made not to destroy the world with a flood. My concern is whether they can be reconciled or if one takes precedence over the other because it was a promise, not a fleeting thought. I thought that you had claimed the covenant had somehow made the first passage irrelevant, and if that was mistaken I apologize. But I would like to know if these two statements can be reconcile, or if there is another way of looking at them that does produce a contradiction like the one I see, especially in light of Revelation and the way God and the plagues lay waste to the Earth and all living things.

...
Genesis 8:21:
And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.


As he has done. He did it with water and he won't that again. It's not contradictory with the later establishment-clarification.

...
In the first, the ground will never be cursed and the living things will never be destroyed. In the second, a promise is made not to destroy the world with a flood. My concern is whether they can be reconciled or if one takes precedence over the other because it was a promise, not a fleeting thought. I thought that you had claimed the covenant had somehow made the first passage irrelevant, and if that was mistaken I apologize. But I would like to know if these two statements can be reconcile, or if there is another way of looking at them that does produce a contradiction like the one I see, especially in light of Revelation and the way God and the plagues lay waste to the Earth and all living things.

The first part does not need to be changed, it needs further clarification and definition. The topic was not finished and then revisited, the topic was in the middle of being discussed. The entire story needs to be read as a whole in it's entirety, otherwise we can't claim contradictory statements with other scriptural books.

The second part completes the first part, it doesn't need to be reconciled or take precedent over it, it is the same statement. God didn't add the verse numbers, we did. The story is the story, it took more than one chapter to tell that singular story and to make that singular promise.

As he has done. He did it with water and he won't that again. It's not contradictory with the later establishment-clarification.



The first part does not need to be changed, it needs further clarification and definition. The topic was not finished and then revisited, the topic was in the middle of being discussed. The entire story needs to be read as a whole in it's entirety, otherwise we can't claim contradictory statements with other scriptural books.

The second part completes the first part, it doesn't need to be reconciled or take precedent over it, it is the same statement. God didn't add the verse numbers, we did. The story is the story, it took more than one chapter to tell that singular story and to make that singular promise.
Alright, that was the kind of perspective I was trying to get. It's certainly a perspective that I've not seen before, so I'll try reading the story again with this in mind. It seems I also derailed the thread for a bit, so I'll drop this topic for now.

As he has done. He did it with water and he won't that again. It's not contradictory with the later establishment-clarification.

So we should expect Trial by Fire or Asteroids to destroy us... good news for me... now I can build the bunker without worry of floods!

**Builds Bunker**

So we should expect Trial by Fire or Asteroids to destroy us... good news for me... now I can build the bunker without worry of floods!

**Builds Bunker**

What about Earthquakes? In the book of Revelations, there are at least three global earthquakes that have devestating affects.

What about Earthquakes? In the book of Revelations, there are at least three global earthquakes that have devestating affects.

The Bunker has several rubber bouncy shields around it, so if there is one, it just wiggles.

So we should expect Trial by Fire or Asteroids to destroy us... good news for me... now I can build the bunker without worry of floods!

**Builds Bunker**

Matthew 24:6
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.


Actually it should not be now (not that it can't be now, it can come anytime, particularly our own individual judgments as our individual lives can be lost without warning), people are NOT saying peace and safety in the world at all now, we are still saying "Wars and rumors of wars" so we must not be in the end stages, yet... Maybe tomorrow.

Matthew 24:6
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.


Actually it should not be now (not that it can't be now, it can come anytime, particularly our own individual judgments as our individual lives can be lost without warning), people are NOT saying peace and safety in the world at all now, we are still saying "Wars and rumors of wars" so we must not be in the end stages, yet... Maybe tomorrow.


I'm not alarmed. I am just prepared...