NationStates Jolt Archive

By being ok with illegal immigrants staying inside the country and not deporting them? Hence they encourage this behaviour. I'm sure people in Africa hear these stories of people reaching Europe illegaly and not deported. Which in turn makes more and more people to do this illegal thing. And when they are trying to do that, many of them get killed. If all illegal immigrants were deported, then I think much much less would-be illegal immigrants would try this thing, seeing that it doesnt work.
So again, are people tolerating illegal immigrants helping with murder?
Oh and this discussion is limited to Europe, I dont want bunch of Americans telling how their country was built on immigration. If you want to discuss that, make another thread.


Tourists aid African migrants in Canary Islands
Boat with 88 on board runs aground; sunbathers help with food, water

Updated: 8:09 a.m. ET July 31, 2006

MADRID, Spain - Sunbathers on a beach in Spain's Canary Islands came to the aid of 88 African migrants whose boat ran aground Sunday, giving them food, water and blankets after their dangerous trip in search of a new life, authorities said.

The boat was the last of three to arrive Sunday on the island of Tenerife, carrying a total of 205 travelers, some of them women and children.

People on the beach were seen rushing to help the Africans with whatever they could provide until police and Red Cross officials arrived to attend to them. Some took the weakest among them to receive first aid in all-terrain vehicles they brought to the shore.

Thousands of migrants try to reach Spain's Canary Islands in the Atlantic each year, an increasing number of them setting off in boats from Mauritania and Moroccan-controlled Western Sahara. Many die during the long and dangerous crossings.

Nine died this week in the latest wave of arrivals.

Spain says more than 11,000 Africans from some of the continent's poorest countries have made the trip so far this year, double the total for all of 2005. More than 1,000 are reported to have died attempting the voyage since late last year.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14117568/

Edit: 1000 immigrants died since last year. Notice that it is much more than the casualities in Lebanon, which everyone seems to be discussing nowadays.

We have the same debate going on in the US and the question of deporting all illegals has come up. We have between 10 and 12 million. I don't know how many there are in Norway, or in the individual European countries, but I suspect it's more than a busload. The question is, how are you going to round them up and send them home? And don't you think the televised images of people being rounded up are going to play rather badly on the news? That being said, I freely admit I don't know what to do about the problem (though I suspect it'll go away a soon as the US elections are overin November).

Thats like saying, if you were an abolitionist, you are supporting the whipping and other various forms of torture of slaves that dont get away. If you are truly trying to leave an awful life behind, you have no other choices but to succeed or die.

I tolerate people owning guns, which can lead to murder, but I don't think I'm actually helping with murder...

EDIT: I like Kazus' analogy.

No. Murder is intentionally killing somebody. The people in the article you quoted were killed accidentally. (Actually, they weren't killed at all, but supposing they had, it would've been accidental.) Therefore, it isn't murder.

No. Murder is intentionally killing somebody. The people in the article you quoted were killed accidentally. (Actually, they weren't killed at all, but supposing they had, it would've been accidental.) Therefore, it isn't murder.

Criminal negligence?

Where is the murder? Who's supposedly murdered or murdering?

Where is the murder? Who's supposedly murdered or murdering?

As far as I can tell the argument goes like this.

People tolerating illegal immigrants leads more people to try and illegally immigrate.

People die trying to illegally immigrate.

Therefore, people tolerating illegal immigrants leads to more people dieing.

As far as I can tell the argument goes like this.

People tolerating illegal immigrants leads more people to try and illegally immigrate.

People die trying to illegally immigrate.

Therefore, people tolerating illegal immigrants leads to more people dieing.

Exactly. And intentional killing is murder and these people are intentionally causing more people to die.

no, they aren't

Exactly. And intentional killing is murder and these people are intentionally causing more people to die.
No... they are leaving of their own free will.

Exactly. And intentional killing is murder and these people are intentionally causing more people to die.
Well, since the Spaniards, for example, do try to keep Africans from storming Ceuta and Mellila I wouldn't say they 'tolerate' it perse.(sp)
Though they should have a far more firm deportation policy. Same with the rest of them.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b88/lunarsandwich/trap.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b88/lunarsandwich/trap.jpg
What was that?

Gimme some time and I'll find a way to link it into the discussion...

Whats with the news article? Are you actually critcising people for helping those on the raft boat? Thats just human nature, it'd be pretty hard just lie on a sun lounger and watch them crash on the beach without offering help. The people who employ illegal workers are those contributing to the problem.

Whats with the news article? Are you actually critcising people for helping those on the raft boat? Thats just human nature, it'd be pretty hard just lie on a sun lounger and watch them crash on the beach without offering help. The people who employ illegal workers are those contributing to the problem.

Duh! Of course I'm not critisizing the ones helping them. I'm critisizing the ones letting them stay...

Duh! Of course I'm not critisizing the ones helping them. I'm critisizing the ones letting them stay...
Bastards. Showing their humanity....

I don't believe those who turn a blind eye to illegal immigration are helping with murder; but I do believe they are doing incalculable harm to their own nations.

They are, by their indifference, contributing to the damage these criminals are doing to our legal systems and economies. Illegal immigrants are flaunting our laws, placing themselves above the law abiding migrants, often from the same areas, who have the patience and discipline to do the right thing. Their selfishness contributes to a general disregard for law and order. In addition, in the US their presence has caused a serious reduction in the value of labor, and contributed to the US's comparatively primitive worker's rights situation.

Bastards. Showing their humanity....

That was pretty idiotic thing to say. If you want to show your humanity, help africa, not to illegal immigrantion which makes people dieing in seas.

That was pretty idiotic thing to say. If you want to show your humanity, help africa, not to illegal immigrantion which makes people dieing in seas.
Yes.

*Watches a raft laden with refugees sink*
"Ok look, those poor people are drowning. Oh well, helping them now would be inhumane in the long run."
*Lasts few air bubbles reach the waters surface...and then calm*
"Yup. We did the right thing. Anywho, back to sunbathing".

*Head explodes from sheer fucked up logic of that*

Yes.

*Watches a raft laden with refugees sink*
"Ok look, those poor people are drowning. Oh well, helping them now would be inhumane in the long run."

*Head explodes from sheer fucked up logic of that*

:rolleyes: This post was even more idiotic. You got a serious problem with reading comprehension. Read again:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11478167&postcount=17

:rolleyes: This post was even more idiotic.
Suits the thread

You got a serious problem with reading comprehension. Read again:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11478167&postcount=17
Well then your OP is a strawman isn't it?

Suits the thread


Well then your OP is a strawman isn't it?

No. You just didnt understand as you didnt understand my #17 post. And I have neither the patience nor the will to explain to you...

No. You just didnt understand as you didnt understand my #17 post. And I have neither the patience nor the will to explain to you...
How will I sleep tonight?

is the pope an islamic jew?

I don't know if you should call it murder. But you could argue that tolerating illegal immigration actually makes things worse in the places the illegal immigrants come from.

By being ok with illegal immigrants staying inside the country and not deporting them? Hence they encourage this behaviour. I'm sure people in Africa hear these stories of people reaching Europe illegaly and not deported. Which in turn makes more and more people to do this illegal thing. And when they are trying to do that, many of them get killed. If all illegal immigrants were deported, then I think much much less would-be illegal immigrants would try this thing, seeing that it doesnt work.
So again, are people tolerating illegal immigrants helping with murder?
Oh and this discussion is limited to Europe, I dont want bunch of Americans telling how their country was built on immigration. If you want to discuss that, make another thread.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14117568/

Edit: 1000 immigrants died since last year. Notice that it is much more than the casualities in Lebanon, which everyone seems to be discussing nowadays.Flaw in your logic:
A) Illegal immigrants get deported
B) People believe what they want to believe

It doesn't really matter whether they get deported or not, all it takes is one rumor that they don't, and I'm sure the traffickers don't mind spreading such rumors in order to get more people to pay them for a trip to Europe.

I suggest you watch "La Marche" and then look at what happened in Ceuta and Melilla afterwards. Maybe you will understand then.

I think what Ny Nordland is saying is that, instead of helping illegal immigrants come here or helping them at all...why not devout our resources to improving the countries that they are fleeing, thus, been good people, improving the third world, and curtailing immigration all in one.

It sounds like a good idea to me.

That was pretty idiotic thing to say. If you want to show your humanity, help africa, not to illegal immigrantion which makes people dieing in seas.
So provide free boat taxis to Africa and back?

I think what Ny Nordland is saying is that, instead of helping illegal immigrants come here or helping them at all...why not devout our resources to improving the countries that they are fleeing, thus, been good people, improving the third world, and curtailing immigration all in one.
And for my next trick, I will cure the common cold.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b88/lunarsandwich/trap.jpg
Obviously an illegal. Note the crude attempt at disguise, the "Visitor" poster in background, and the poor grasp of the native tongue ;)

Some one got into the land of bad children pot and beer.

And for my next trick, I will cure the common cold.
....?

I think what Ny Nordland is saying is that, instead of helping illegal immigrants come here or helping them at all...why not devout our resources to improving the countries that they are fleeing, thus, been good people, improving the third world, and curtailing immigration all in one.I think that Ny Nordland wants to deport all people of non "original" descent to reduce rape rates. I doubt his motivation is as altruistic as you claim. Then again, neither of us can look into his head ;)

It sounds like a good idea to me.It is a good idea. The problem is that Western governments are putting more emphasis on the deporting than on the improving. Improving conditions in home countries and setting up centers where would be refugees can be intercepted is one of the plans that the German foreign ministry is pursuing. It just isn't all that popular with other European countries that would have to pay countries like Egypt or Morocco for maintaining such refugee camps.

Duh! Of course I'm not critisizing the ones helping them. I'm critisizing the ones letting them stay...I see. But how would be sending them back so they can make the trip again be more noble?

I think that Ny Nordland wants to deport all people of non "original" descent to reduce rape rates. I doubt his motivation is as altruistic as you claim. Then again, neither of us can look into his head ;)

Well, whatever the reasoning behind Ny Nordland is, all three of us would have to use the strategy I listed above to get what we want...whether that is making Europe White, or simply cutting off this flood of immigrants for whatever reason...our paths will intertwine using this strategy.

It is a good idea. The problem is that Western governments are putting more emphasis on the deporting than on the improving. Improving conditions in home countries and setting up centers where would be refugees can be intercepted is one of the plans that the German foreign ministry is pursuing. It just isn't all that popular with other European countries that would have to pay countries like Egypt or Morocco for maintaining such refugee camps.

The emphasis needs to first go on the improving the foreign countries..because once thats done..we would barely even have to worry about deportations.
If the idea is not popular, its for two reasons...1. It isnt broadcast enough..because its a great idea. Or 2. The people are just that stupid..becaus its a great idea.

Its the ultimate solution to keeping stability, improving the third world, and being good people.

Flaw in your logic:
A) Illegal immigrants get deported
B) People believe what they want to believe

It doesn't really matter whether they get deported or not, all it takes is one rumor that they don't, and I'm sure the traffickers don't mind spreading such rumors in order to get more people to pay them for a trip to Europe.

I suggest you watch "La Marche" and then look at what happened in Ceuta and Melilla afterwards. Maybe you will understand then.

I'm surprised someone with limited knowledge such as you can suggest me things to understand. Some illegals get deported but many stay. Remember the amnesty to illegals in Spain, recently. And they are considering one in Italy. Next time you are going to suggest someone something, make sure not to sound too ignorant.

I see. But how would be sending them back so they can make the trip again be more noble?

Who said in order to deport them, we should send them in their original crappy vessels? After being proccessed in some sort of immigration center (after being helped by sunbathing tourists), they can be flown back home.

I'm surprised someone with limited knowledge such as you can suggest me things to understand. Ad hominem. Good job ;)
Some illegals get deported but many stay. Remember the amnesty to illegals in Spain, recently. And they are considering one in Italy. Next time you are going to suggest someone something, make sure not to sound too ignorant.Yeah, I suppose Europe is a real welcomer there then. Perhaps next time, don't go claiming that someone has no clue what they're talking about when in fact they spent a whole year working with people with immigant backgrounds and visited the camps for people whose status is still unclear.

Who said in order to deport them, we should send them in their original crappy vessels? After being proccessed in some sort of immigration center (after being helped by sunbathing tourists), they can be flown back home.Exactly. After which they are likely to try again. As plenty of the people who got deported after Ceuta and Melilla said they would.

Ad hominem. Good job ;)
Yeah, I suppose Europe is a real welcomer there then. Perhaps next time, don't go claiming that someone has no clue what they're talking about when in fact they spent a whole year working with people with immigant backgrounds and visited the camps for people whose status is still unclear.

In the blue area you admit you are wrong as this contradicts what you've said before, that all illegal immigrants are deported.
And then in red area you are still claiming you are right? Obviously you didnt have a clue what you were talking about. Many immigrants are allowed to stay.
Oh and remember, USA did welcome slave labour too and they thought they were doing a good thing for the blacks. You people are equally clueless for the given reasons in the OP.

Exactly. After which they are likely to try again. As plenty of the people who got deported after Ceuta and Melilla said they would.

Because they know they have a chance of "getting in".

In the blue area you admit you are wrong as this contradicts what you've said before,Yeah, do you want to know why (http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4765/irony2ol6.jpg)?
that all illegal immigrants are deported.In your dreams, maybe. I never said that. You putting words into my mouth is a poor form of argumentation.
And then in red area you are still claiming you are right? Obviously you didnt have a clue what you were talking about. Many immigrants are allowed to stay.Kid, I know from personal experience how those people are treated and how likely it is for them to be allowed to remain permanently after they've been forced to live in shaming conditions. If your only argument against me is "You obviously don't have a clue", please stop wasting my time.
Oh and remember, USA did welcome slave labour too and they thought they were doing a good thing for the blacks. You people are equally clueless for the given reasons in the OP.Got any other skeletons you'd want to exhume?

Because they know they have a chance of "getting in".And deporting everyone that makes landfall wouldn't change them "knowing" that.

Yeah, do you want to know why (http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4765/irony2ol6.jpg)?


I said that Spain passed an amnesty for illegals and you responded that "Yeah, I suppose Europe is a real welcomer there then". In order to be an irony, there has to be a contradiction. Spain's move was welcoming for immigrants, which wasnt contradictory to your answer. Dont blame me for your poor attempts at irony.


In your dreams, maybe. I never said that. You putting words into my mouth is a poor form of argumentation.



Flaw in your logic:
A) Illegal immigrants get deported
B) People believe what they want to believe


I was arguing that all illegals arent deported. How is it a flaw in my logic if only some are deported? Either it isnt a flaw in my logic as you suggested or you meant that all illegals are deported. In both cases you are wrong.


Kid, I know from personal experience how those people are treated and how likely it is for them to be allowed to remain permanently after they've been forced to live in shaming conditions. If your only argument against me is "You obviously don't have a clue", please stop wasting my time.


If they were deported immidiately (after being provided food and other neccesities), they wouldnt be treated badly, would they?


Got any other skeletons you'd want to exhume?


No, I made my point.

And deporting everyone that makes landfall wouldn't change them "knowing" that.

It'd be a common knowledge in a couple of years. They would know it and "know" it...

I said that Spain passed an amnesty for illegals And provided no source to support that statement.
and you responded that "Yeah, I suppose Europe is a real welcomer there then". And that was immediatly followed by my reasons why I know that this isn't the case.
In order to be an irony, there has to be a contradiction. Europe can hardly be claimed to be welcoming to asylum seekers, both according to my personal experience of their treatment and the past and present actions of EU governments. Spain deported almost all of the people that clambered over the fences into Ceuta and Melilla back to Morocco. The Netherlands took a drastic step to the right on the issue of asylum seekers under Balkenende. One of the first reactions of some of the German state governments pending the developing refugee crisis due to the war in Lebanon was that they wouldn't accept refugees.
Spain's move was welcoming for immigrants, which wasnt contradictory to your answer.One move from Spain is hardly representative for all of Europe. In fact, one single move from Spain is hardly representative for Spain's immigration policy if they don't continue down that path.
Dont blame me for your poor attempts at irony.Darn. We'd gotten so far without an ad hominem, and now you had to ruin it again.

I was arguing that all illegals arent deported. How is it a flaw in my logic if only some are deported? Insofar as you believe that more asylum seekers are allowed to stay than are forced to leave.
Either it isnt a flaw in my logic as you suggested or you meant that all illegals are deported.I "meant" that? Thankyou for making me aware of that. I wouldn't have figured it out on my own.

If they were deported immidiately (after being provided food and other neccesities), they wouldnt be treated badly, would they?By sending them back to places they left because of the bleakness they face? How much despair do you think it takes to climb a barbed wire fence or cross the Mediterranean without enough food and water? Sending someone back to conditions that they tried so hard to escape would be considered "good treatment"?

No, I made my point.An unwarranted jab at Americans on an issue that hardly pertains to the topic doesn't constitute a "point".

It'd be a common knowledge in a couple of years. They would know it and "know" it...Like I've said before, you should rent "La Marche" sometime to understand the mentality of some of these people.

By being ok with illegal immigrants staying inside the country and not deporting them? Hence they encourage this behaviour. I'm sure people in Africa hear these stories of people reaching Europe illegaly and not deported. Which in turn makes more and more people to do this illegal thing. And when they are trying to do that, many of them get killed. If all illegal immigrants were deported, then I think much much less would-be illegal immigrants would try this thing, seeing that it doesnt work.
So again, are people tolerating illegal immigrants helping with murder?
Oh and this discussion is limited to Europe, I dont want bunch of Americans telling how their country was built on immigration. If you want to discuss that, make another thread.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14117568/

Edit: 1000 immigrants died since last year. Notice that it is much more than the casualities in Lebanon, which everyone seems to be discussing nowadays.

Well this IS coming from an AMerican and I want all the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS the "F" out of my country. Legal is fine, welcome to America, ILLEGAL's should have an open hunting season for all I care.

And provided no source to support that statement.
And that was immediatly followed by my reasons why I know that this isn't the case.
It's a pretty common practise for Spain. Italy as well.

It's a pretty common practise for Spain. Italy as well.
Spain: 2000 some 230 000 illegals are made legal, 2001 another 239 000 permits are granted. The last wave of permits for Spain was last year. Some 800 000 illegals were allegible for the pardon.