NationStates Jolt Archive

As many of you may be aware, many World Leaders are beginning to suggest an International Peace-keeping force along the Israeli-Lebanese border in the near future. This Peace-keeping force would undoubtedly contain an EU contingent, and that would ultimately involve a German presence. The question, in brief, is: is it right to expect the Germans to fill a position where they may have to point a gun at an Israeli (Jewish) soldier?

Obviously, many Israelis may feel that it is insensitive to give the Nation that culled millions of their people (and indeed, some of their close loved ones) the right to patrol Israel, the Jewish nation, that was specifically created to avoid European (and elsewhere's) agression. Also on the German side, a state that only recently amended their constitution to even accept the uses of a deployable military, is it an unfair reminder of the guilt the Germans must hold for allowing the world's most evil man to take over their democracy.

Of course, it could also be said that this was 60 years ago, and that no-one today serious expects the German people to begin a genocide of Jews afresh, and that this fear is not based in reality.

So what do you think? Is there something fundamentally wrong with arming a German and face him towards Israel? Or should the World recognise that Germany is a responsible power and should be expected to take part in its share of World Policing? It would be interesting to hear some German and Israeli opinions.

In my opinion Israel and Lebanon should be left to their own device. No other lifes should be put at risk for either.

In my opinion Israel and Lebanon should be left to their own device. No other lifes should be put at risk for either.

That's unneccesarily cruel, both are beautiful countries and deserve better than to be shelled into nonexistance by the other. Besides, unchecked wars have a habit of spilling over into neighbouring nations, which is not a good thing.

The Germans do not have a great record of actually providing troops for peacekeeping missions. they will proabbly seek to avoid this potential problem by providing supplies or logistical support rather than troops on the ground.

The Germans of today are totally different people from the Germans of the thirties and forties. It's been sixty years since the end of the war. I suspect most everybody who played any real role is dead by now. We're talking about the grand-children and great-grandchildren of the people who made the mistake. It's clearly not their fault.

That's unneccesarily cruel, both are beautiful countries and deserve better than to be shelled into nonexistance by the other. Besides, unchecked wars have a habit of spilling over into neighbouring nations, which is not a good thing.

Peace, like freedom has no meaning when it's given by others. It has to be earned to have value.

<snippity snip>

Why do people still equate Germany with Naziism? Are they still in power? Does anti-Semitism dominate the lives of German citizens?

No. The world, it seems (mostly ignorant ameikuns), have this bias against anything German (unless its a car). The thought of a little eyebrow-raising over German troops in Israel is preposterous. People need to stop holing grudges.

Is it a fact that Israelis are complaining about German troops? Because that would make them in a group with the Nazis themselves. Hating another person for no reason other than perceived offenses.

Not to be anti-Semitic, but it seems to me that Israel has become arrogant recently, acting as if they have some authority stemming from past greivances. Like they deserve more aid than the Lebanese or something.

Well, the Germans of today are as reponsible for the Nazis of yesterday as the Jews of today are oppressed as much as the Jews of yesterday.

(does that make sense?)

Gimme a break, people change. Oh n0es, t3h n4z1s r g0nn3 5h00t t3h j3\/\/5!

:rolleyes: cannot fully describe my feeling right now.

(I live in the US, and am of German descent, and hate when people even begin to equate present-day Germany with the Nazi Era. It's almost personal to me.[especially England at the World Cup, goose-stepping and saluting. that's just offensive, and i dont even live there :mad: .] So dont take this wrong.)

Of course, it could also be said that this was 60 years ago, and that no-one today serious expects the German people to begin a genocide of Jews afresh, and that this fear is not based in reality.

So what do you think? Is there something fundamentally wrong with arming a German and face him towards Israel? Or should the World recognise that Germany is a responsible power and should be expected to take part in its share of World Policing? It would be interesting to hear some German and Israeli opinions.

I'm sure that under specific circumstances, it could happen again.
With the current miserable economic situation in Germany, repeated failure of the established political parties to do any reforms, it's only a matter of time until right-wing parties might come to power again.
So what I find highly possible (and really scary) is some kind of an alliance between neo-nazi groups and islamic fundamentalists could emerge and they'd be trying to do it again and complete what they started sixty years ago...

I don't say that it's necessary to happen, and I don't say all Germans would support it, but depending on the context, I'm sure the (disenfranchised, impoverished, uneducated) majority would do it again. (After all, people are stupid...)

I believe the world shouldn't allow itself to be deceived by the illusion of a stable and democratic Germany. That may change very quickly. :(

That's unneccesarily cruel, both are beautiful countries and deserve better than to be shelled into nonexistance by the other. Besides, unchecked wars have a habit of spilling over into neighbouring nations, which is not a good thing.
Both parties want to fight. I say let them. What I find unneccesarily cruel is to have others who have no part in this conflict put in harms way. Especially knowing the track record of both Israel and Hesbollah when either are fired upon for whatever reason.

I'm sure that under specific circumstances, it could happen again.
With the current miserable economic situation in Germany, repeated failure of the established political parties to do any reforms, it's only a matter of time until right-wing parties might come to power again.
First of all, the specific circumstances that presaged the first overthrow of democracy were two impeccably timed events. 1.) the Treaty of Versailles demanded more money in reparations than the nonexistent German economy could produce in years. 2.) The Great Depression. While I give you the fact that growth has been slow and unemployment is relatively high, these bear no resemblance to the economic shambles that was the Germany of the Weimar years. It was cheaper to wallpaper with Marks, for Christ's Sake!
Yes, Germany is 'behind' politically and economically, if you consider behind to mean having one of the world's third largest economy. It is shaky at times, but again, no where near the pre-Nazi levels of mass upheaval.
So what I find highly possible (and really scary) is some kind of an alliance between neo-nazi groups and islamic fundamentalists could emerge and they'd be trying to do it again and complete what they started sixty years ago...
Those groups do not mix. No Islamic fundamentalist would stoop to form a coalition for political power, let alone with Neo Nazis.
Neo-Nazis today are refracted light from the Nazis of 1940s Europe. Then, they were a quasi-legitimate party for some time. They also did something that allowed them to gain power (something those two groups cant do); appease the people. Hitler said he would put meat on every table, and for a time, he did. People blindly supported the man who seemed to save them from the economic ruin of the Depression. The Nazi party did not gain 230 seats in the Reichstag in 1932 spouting hatred of Jews. They had promises that for the most part they fulfilled. they werent even that extreme in comparison to the other parties in Germany at the time. so please dont tel me that a pseudo group could gain the seats necessary for political gain.
I don't say that it's necessary to happen, and I don't say all Germans would support it, but depending on the context, I'm sure the (disenfranchised, impoverished, uneducated) majority would do it again. (After all, people are stupid...)
Uneducated? One of the world's highest education rates? I dont think so.
Highest literacy rate (99.9%)
Impoverished? Better income equality than the US.
Disenfranchised? High unemployment, but I explained.
I believe the world shouldn't allow itself to be deceived by the illusion of a stable and democratic Germany. That may change very quickly. :(
It's not stable? One event could topple it?
the economy seems a likely target, but your ideas have no basis in either present day or historical fact.

Please return without the bias of a gullible stupid German who followed Anti-Semites into the breach.

Those groups do not mix. No Islamic fundamentalist would stoop to form a coalition for political power, let alone with Neo Nazis.
Oh but thats where your wrong. NPD members are regular guests at Islamist conventions.

snip
No. The world, it seems (mostly ignorant ameikuns), have this bias against anything German (unless its a car). The thought of a little eyebrow-raising over German troops in Israel is preposterous. People need to stop holing grudges.
Woah, what are you talking about, ignorant Americans? A lot of us are descended from Germans, and isn't Germany a good ally of ours?

Is it a fact that Israelis are complaining about German troops? Because that would make them in a group with the Nazis themselves. Hating another person for no reason other than perceived offenses.
A lot of people equate the Israelis with Nazis anyway, for their general treatment of Palestinians.

Frankly, a lot of people I know are harder on Americans for our society, government, and past offenses (eg the perpetration of the most successful genocide in American history) than we are on the Germans.

Woah, what are you talking about, ignorant Americans? A lot of us are descended from Germans, and isn't Germany a good ally of ours?
personal sarcasm. many people i know jokingly say, 'well, what'd you expect from the people who brought you nazis' when you mention germany. it reallypisses me off.

many people devalue their german ancestors because America victimized them in WWI and outright hated them in WWII, for a country they hadnt ever seen or seen in years.
A lot of people equate the Israelis with Nazis anyway, for their general treatment of Palestinians.

I could never equate them. The same league of blind hatred, but I think no one should ever be considered an equal to them. Except maybe the U.S.'s treatment of Native Americans, but that was nowhere near as concentrated and planned as the Nazis
Frankly, a lot of people I know are harder on Americans for our society, government, and past offenses (eg the perpetration of the most successful genocide in American history) than we are on the Germans.

Germany wants to repair its image while the U.S. sits and, to quote Meatwad,

"Do what now?"

Germany wants to repair its image while the U.S. sits and, to quote Meatwad,

"Do what now?"
Germany doesn't need to repair it's image.

Germany doesn't need to repair it's image.
Grmany has been trying to smooth over the effects of Naziism and Anti-Semitism ever since WWII.

They have become one of the more liberal countries of the world.

So they did not need to repair the image of Jew-hating warmongers? People still equate the two, even after decades of separation and attempts at displaying the change.

First of all, the specific circumstances that presaged the first overthrow of democracy were two impeccably timed events. 1.) the Treaty of Versailles demanded more money in reparations than the nonexistent German economy could produce in years. 2.) The Great Depression. While I give you the fact that growth has been slow and unemployment is relatively high, these bear no resemblance to the economic shambles that was the Germany of the Weimar years. It was cheaper to wallpaper with Marks, for Christ's Sake!
Yes, Germany is 'behind' politically and economically, if you consider behind to mean having one of the world's third largest economy. It is shaky at times, but again, no where near the pre-Nazi levels of mass upheaval.

Third largest economy? Only on paper, the truth is most of the "German" companies produce in other countries where they have much cheaper labour forces. The German economy is one short step away from imploding. Also, there's hundred-thousands of Germans which are leaving the country every year. The situation seems very bad.

Those groups do not mix. No Islamic fundamentalist would stoop to form a coalition for political power, let alone with Neo Nazis.

Well, they do mix, and they have lot's of affinities between the two groups. There were already affinities back in WWII, some of which have persisted in Arab countries up to today. And don't forget Islam is growing rapidly in Germany, and I'm pretty sure that they are not very fond of the Jews.

Neo-Nazis today are refracted light from the Nazis of 1940s Europe. Then, they were a quasi-legitimate party for some time. They also did something that allowed them to gain power (something those two groups cant do); appease the people. Hitler said he would put meat on every table, and for a time, he did. People blindly supported the man who seemed to save them from the economic ruin of the Depression. The Nazi party did not gain 230 seats in the Reichstag in 1932 spouting hatred of Jews. They had promises that for the most part they fulfilled. they werent even that extreme in comparison to the other parties in Germany at the time. so please dont tel me that a pseudo group could gain the seats necessary for political gain.

Well, what about those massive gains of right-wing parties in those eastern states?

Uneducated? One of the world's highest education rates? I dont think so.
Highest literacy rate (99.9%)
Impoverished? Better income equality than the US.
Disenfranchised? High unemployment, but I explained.

Ever heard that Germany scored remarkably bad in that PISA performance tests? They're the country in Europe with the worst education!

It's not stable? One event could topple it?
the economy seems a likely target, but your ideas have no basis in either present day or historical fact.

Well, I'm not talking about present day, but perhaps 10-15 years if the situation in the country gets worse, which hopefully will not happen. After all Germany is in the EU now, and as much as they have been shouting about it, the Euro has slowed down the decay of their economy. Have you any idea what the Mark would have now if they were still having it?
Also, there is still the hope that the democratic parties will finally succeed with the direly-needed reforms and the economy will pick up again. In that case it's very unlikely to happen, I agree.

Please return without the bias of a gullible stupid German who followed Anti-Semites into the breach.

Well, I'm not biased, I just see some things that most people ignore....

personal sarcasm. many people i know jokingly say, 'well, what'd you expect from the people who brought you nazis' when you mention germany. it reallypisses me off.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I look stereotypically German, so I used to get called Nazi a lot...

many people devalue their german ancestors because America victimized them in WWI and outright hated them in WWII, for a country they hadnt ever seen or seen in years.
......Yep...... I really don't have anything to add to this.


I could never equate them. The same league of blind hatred, but I think no one should ever be considered an equal to them. Except maybe the U.S.'s treatment of Native Americans, but that was nowhere near as concentrated and planned as the Nazis
Well, I think of the Israelis to be closer to America during Vietnam, but more aggressive. After all, their first response to a rocket attack from a village seems to be to level the village (much like our napalm strikes). We at least tried to spare civilians a lot of the time...
And I think the only reason the Indian genocide wasn't as organized as the Nazis was because we didn't have the communications technology or the infrastructure that the Nazis did.

Germany wants to repair its image while the U.S. sits and, to quote Meatwad,
"Do what now?"
I think America is trying to run its image into the ground, what with our blatant imperialism and the way that Americans act on forums ("We're superior to you because we're American, you damn limey!"). Plus the general lack of intelligence in our media nowadays (Blue Collar Comedy Tour, anyone?)

Well, what about those massive gains of right-wing parties in those eastern states?
Which states? Name them.



Ever heard that Germany scored remarkably bad in that PISA performance tests? They're the country in Europe with the worst education!
Did you read the test?



Have you any idea what the Mark would have now if they were still having it?
Enlighten us.

As many of you may be aware, many World Leaders are beginning to suggest an International Peace-keeping force along the Israeli-Lebanese border in the near future. This Peace-keeping force would undoubtedly contain an EU contingent, and that would ultimately involve a German presence. The question, in brief, is: is it right to expect the Germans to fill a position where they may have to point a gun at an Israeli (Jewish) soldier?

Obviously, many Israelis may feel that it is insensitive to give the Nation that culled millions of their people (and indeed, some of their close loved ones) the right to patrol Israel, the Jewish nation, that was specifically created to avoid European (and elsewhere's) agression. Also on the German side, a state that only recently amended their constitution to even accept the uses of a deployable military, is it an unfair reminder of the guilt the Germans must hold for allowing the world's most evil man to take over their democracy.

Of course, it could also be said that this was 60 years ago, and that no-one today serious expects the German people to begin a genocide of Jews afresh, and that this fear is not based in reality.

So what do you think? Is there something fundamentally wrong with arming a German and face him towards Israel? Or should the World recognise that Germany is a responsible power and should be expected to take part in its share of World Policing? It would be interesting to hear some German and Israeli opinions.


I think that if there is ever an international force in Lebanon, it will be there either fighting ALONGSIDE Israel or keeping the peace (if there is one) WITH Israel. I don't think there will be ANY international force actually pointing their guns AT Israel. So that said, I would be delighted to see German troops fight alongside the Jews in order to help disarm Hizballah and their terrorist ilk, or to see them work together to keep the peace with Israel.

Which states? Name them.

Brandenburgh and Saxony, as I recall.

Did you read the test?

here's a brief reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment#Reactions_to_the_results


Enlighten us.

Well, I'm sure it'd have lost much of it's value. I don't say it'd be as bad as the hyperinflation of the early 1920's, but still rather bad. In a way, the common currency in the EU works like something as a protection mechanism against inflation.

Third largest economy? Only on paper, the truth is most of the "German" companies produce in other countries where they have much cheaper labour forces. The German economy is one short step away from imploding. Also, there's hundred-thousands of Germans which are leaving the country every year. The situation seems very bad.
I agree that the economy, while string, i not completely stable. ONe large shock, probably a delay from something in either the U.S. or the overall EU, could topple it. But, as I said, not to the extreme point it was prior to Hitler's rise to power. Bad, but not Great Depression bad.
Well, they do mix, and they have lot's of affinities between the two groups. There were already affinities back in WWII, some of which have persisted in Arab countries up to today. And don't forget Islam is growing rapidly in Germany, and I'm pretty sure that they are not very fond of the Jews.
Do they come together due to common hatred? I cannot fathom how they share a room together.
Well, what about those massive gains of right-wing parties in those eastern states?
Massive gains in only one part of the country, and those gains put them from outsiders to intolerable single seaters. they do not have the naitonal support the Nazis did, and they do not have the support of the common man. They do have the limited support of impoverished Easterners, but they simply do not have the face value to peacefully win the national government.

Ever heard that Germany scored remarkably bad in that PISA performance tests? They're the country in Europe with the worst education!
Actually, no. Uneducated to me would mean being unable to live in the world because you cannot understand it. Illiterate.
Then again, I have nothing to base this on.

Well, I'm not talking about present day, but perhaps 10-15 years if the situation in the country gets worse, which hopefully will not happen. After all Germany is in the EU now, and as much as they have been shouting about it, the Euro has slowed down the decay of their economy. Have you any idea what the Mark would have now if they were still having it?
Also, there is still the hope that the democratic parties will finally succeed with the direly-needed reforms and the economy will pick up again. In that case it's very unlikely to happen, I agree.

Of course. But, as I have stated before, the simple outward appearance of the two groups does not allow for a rise to power akin to Hitler. The economy is nowhere near as bad, and the image of NeoNazis would stop the movement in its track, if not nationally then internationally.
Well, I'm not biased, I just see some things that most people ignore....
You seemed to give off the idea that the German citizens of all walks of life could fall victim to an even worse ruse than had been pulled on them. The stigmatism (and past experience) would prevent that from happening again. At least, peacefully. While the Nazis gained the Reichstag legitimately, I dont see the NeoNazi-IslamoFascist group gaining enough national support.
Sorry, but you came off as arrogant to me. No offense. :)

Brandenburgh and Saxony, as I recall.
Well, if you consider 6.2% (DVU) and 9.2% (NPD), most of those votes where out of protest anyway, to be huge.





Well, I'm sure it'd have lost much of it's value. I don't say it'd be as bad as the hyperinflation of the early 1920's, but still rather bad. In a way, the common currency in the EU works like something as a protection mechanism against inflation.
By your logic the pound, the danish krone etc....should be all worthless now. The D-Mark and the guilder make up the largest part of the Euro's worth. And the Euro wouldn't be what is today without them. As for inflation. If Germany still had the D-Mark they could directly influence the inflation through the Bundesbank. Which they can't now.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I look stereotypically German, so I used to get called Nazi a lot...
My rather open affection for Germany seems odd to my fellow Americans.
I swear if someone says USian my head might explode
Including supporting Germany instead of the US in the World Cup. Apparantly I'm unpatriotic.
Well, I think of the Israelis to be closer to America during Vietnam, but more aggressive. After all, their first response to a rocket attack from a village seems to be to level the village (much like our napalm strikes). We at least tried to spare civilians a lot of the time...
And I think the only reason the Indian genocide wasn't as organized as the Nazis was because we didn't have the communications technology or the infrastructure that the Nazis did.
Yeah, and there were less civilians in the immediate vicinity of Viet Cong in Vietnam, at least in my knowledge. They lack respect for people (Bombs) like we lacked respect for nature (napalm, agent orange).
Native American genocide was so prolonged and decentralized I think it was more the work of centuries of American dislike embedded in the first colonists.
I think America is trying to run its image into the ground, what with our blatant imperialism and the way that Americans act on forums ("We're superior to you because we're American, you damn limey!"). Plus the general lack of intelligence in our media nowadays (Blue Collar Comedy Tour, anyone?)
FNORD
It is times like those when I feel sad to be American. BCCT was funny, yet insensitive and no one seemed to care.

I agree that the economy, while string, i not completely stable. ONe large shock, probably a delay from something in either the U.S. or the overall EU, could topple it. But, as I said, not to the extreme point it was prior to Hitler's rise to power. Bad, but not Great Depression bad.

Well, looking at the global economic situation, who knows... but like I said, it' prettymuch a worst-case scenario...

Do they come together due to common hatred? I cannot fathom how they share a room together.

Heh, believe it. It seems as unlikely that somebody like Mugabe of Zimbabwe admires Hitler, but he does...

Massive gains in only one part of the country, and those gains put them from outsiders to intolerable single seaters. they do not have the naitonal support the Nazis did, and they do not have the support of the common man. They do have the limited support of impoverished Easterners, but they simply do not have the face value to peacefully win the national government.

Well, hopefully not...

Actually, no. Uneducated to me would mean being unable to live in the world because you cannot understand it. Illiterate.
Then again, I have nothing to base this on.

Err, uneducated is not quite the same as illiterate... (and I agree they're definitly not illiterate)

Of course. But, as I have stated before, the simple outward appearance of the two groups does not allow for a rise to power akin to Hitler. The economy is nowhere near as bad, and the image of NeoNazis would stop the movement in its track, if not nationally then internationally.

True, I'm sure their European neighbours would step in this time. Plus so far the democratic parties are still in a pretty good position in Germany (but, they may be in the danger of losing it in the case that they fail with the reforms).

You seemed to give off the idea that the German citizens of all walks of life could fall victim to an even worse ruse than had been pulled on them. The stigmatism (and past experience) would prevent that from happening again. At least, peacefully. While the Nazis gained the Reichstag legitimately, I dont see the NeoNazi-IslamoFascist group gaining enough national support.
Sorry, but you came off as arrogant to me. No offense. :)

Well, I don't say everybody in Germany would be supporting it. There's a lot of reasonable people running around in the country (best evidence is that the recent world-cup went so smoothly - I don't think they'd even have become host of the world cup if they were still predominantly Nazis - that seems ridiculous...)
Eh, arrogant? Me? No... a bit too pessimistic, maybe ;)

After all, bringing up hypothetical worst-case scenarios helps preventing the same... :)

I dont even know why this is an issue, and I am an American, of German background, who follows Judaism.:confused:

Why do people still equate Germany with Naziism? Are they still in power? Does anti-Semitism dominate the lives of German citizens?

No. The world, it seems (mostly ignorant ameikuns), have this bias against anything German (unless its a car). The thought of a little eyebrow-raising over German troops in Israel is preposterous. People need to stop holing grudges.

Is it a fact that Israelis are complaining about German troops? Because that would make them in a group with the Nazis themselves. Hating another person for no reason other than perceived offenses.

Not to be anti-Semitic, but it seems to me that Israel has become arrogant recently, acting as if they have some authority stemming from past greivances. Like they deserve more aid than the Lebanese or something.

Well, the Germans of today are as reponsible for the Nazis of yesterday as the Jews of today are oppressed as much as the Jews of yesterday.

(does that make sense?)

Gimme a break, people change. Oh n0es, t3h n4z1s r g0nn3 5h00t t3h j3\/\/5!

:rolleyes: cannot fully describe my feeling right now.

(I live in the US, and am of German descent, and hate when people even begin to equate present-day Germany with the Nazi Era. It's almost personal to me.[especially England at the World Cup, goose-stepping and saluting. that's just offensive, and i dont even live there :mad: .] So dont take this wrong.)

I agree with Fleckenstein.:)

So what I find highly possible (and really scary) is some kind of an alliance between neo-nazi groups and islamic fundamentalists could emerge and they'd be trying to do it again and complete what they started sixty years ago...


I know it will happen that way. It happened 70 years ago when the Mufti allied the Palestinian Arabs with the Nazis.

I and most of my fellow Jews wouldn't trust a German with our lives. Even if they have no ties to Nazism, I just can't trust or forgive them. That's the way it is. You can't undo 6 million dead.

I honestly doubt Germany will want to be in this situation anyways. The EU would probably understand any objections by the Germans on the grounds it would be an uncomfortable situation.

I and most of my fellow Jews wouldn't trust a German with our lives. Even if they have no ties to Nazism, I just can't trust or forgive them. That's the way it is. You can't undo 6 million dead.

I honestly doubt Germany will want to be in this situation anyways. The EU would probably understand any objections by the Germans on the grounds it would be an uncomfortable situation.
My family was/is German (and Austrian)....I would trust them. To be honest, this seperation of Jews and Germans...even though its possible to be a German Jew (my family) is retarded, and contributes TO the holocaust. Its the Jewish feeling of self isolation from the goyim...because "we are different".

I would trust any German, Jewish or Protestant, as much as I would trust any American, Jewish or Protestant....unless I had reason not to.

Come on now, you can be an American Jew, so why wouldnt it be possible to be a German Jew? Because the Nazis didnt allow it, oh please:rolleyes:

Like I said...one of the main reasons for hatred against Jews is because we, ourselves, many times refuse to admit that we *ARE* part of the general population. Not as Jews living in Berlin, Germany...but as Germans living in Berlin, Germany...who follow Judaism.

Why do people still equate Germany with Naziism? Are they still in power? Does anti-Semitism dominate the lives of German citizens?

No. The world, it seems (mostly ignorant ameikuns), have this bias against anything German (unless its a car). The thought of a little eyebrow-raising over German troops in Israel is preposterous. People need to stop holing grudges.

Is it a fact that Israelis are complaining about German troops? Because that would make them in a group with the Nazis themselves. Hating another person for no reason other than perceived offenses.

Not to be anti-Semitic, but it seems to me that Israel has become arrogant recently, acting as if they have some authority stemming from past greivances. Like they deserve more aid than the Lebanese or something.

Well, the Germans of today are as reponsible for the Nazis of yesterday as the Jews of today are oppressed as much as the Jews of yesterday.

(does that make sense?)

Gimme a break, people change. Oh n0es, t3h n4z1s r g0nn3 5h00t t3h j3\/\/5!

:rolleyes: cannot fully describe my feeling right now.

(I live in the US, and am of German descent, and hate when people even begin to equate present-day Germany with the Nazi Era. It's almost personal to me.[especially England at the World Cup, goose-stepping and saluting. that's just offensive, and i dont even live there :mad: .] So dont take this wrong.)

Actually, it's been mostly discussed by the German press and population so far. And as I understand it, most are against sending German troops as part of the peace corps.

My family was/is German (and Austrian)....I would trust them. To be honest, this seperation of Jews and Germans...even though its possible to be a German Jew (my family) is retarded, and contributes TO the holocaust. Its the Jewish feeling of self isolation from the goyim...because "we are different".

I would trust any German, Jewish or Protestant, as much as I would trust any American, Jewish or Protestant....unless I had reason not to.

Come on now, you can be an American Jew, so why wouldnt it be possible to be a German Jew? Because the Nazis didnt allow it, oh please:rolleyes:

Like I said...one of the main reasons for hatred against Jews is because we, ourselves, many times refuse to admit that we *ARE* part of the general population. Not as Jews living in Berlin, Germany...but as Germans living in Berlin, Germany...who follow Judaism.
The Jews of Germany had assimilated. Look what good that did for them. I'm not saying I don't trust other groups. I'm just saying I don't trust Germany. If there is a good asset we have as a people, it is a our long memories. I think history justifies my distrust.

The Jews of Germany had assimilated. Look what good that did for them. I'm not saying I don't trust other groups. I'm just saying I don't trust Germany. If there is a good asset we have as a people, it is a our long memories. I think history justifies my distrust.

Realistically, you should be distrustful to all Europeans then. Anti-semitism has a long and sad history in Europe, really. It's not that this was invented with Hitler and the Nazis...

Realistically, you should be distrustful to all Europeans then. Anti-semitism has a long and sad history in Europe, really. It's not that this was invented with Hitler and the Nazis...

Xenophobia doesn't obey the laws of logic.

Well, they do mix, and they have lot's of affinities between the two groups. There were already affinities back in WWII, some of which have persisted in Arab countries up to today. And don't forget Islam is growing rapidly in Germany, and I'm pretty sure that they are not very fond of the Jews.



I guess that's wishful thinking on the part of the Arabs. Enemy no 1 for most New Nazi groups in Germany these days are Turks and Arabs, not Jews.

The Jews of Germany had assimilated. Look what good that did for them. I'm not saying I don't trust other groups. I'm just saying I don't trust Germany. If there is a good asset we have as a people, it is a our long memories. I think history justifies my distrust.

They had assimilated the best in Europe at the time...but that wasnt saying much. Germans who practice Judaism...are Germans and Jews, both.

If you say you dont trust Germans...you dont trust any German Jew who has ever lived or is living now.

Germans (Jews and non-Jews alike) have leaned over backwards, taken it up the ass, to prove that people who arnt even alive anymore dont control the country, or make up that countries population.

Germans are not the enemies...and Germans can be Jews, Christians, or Protestants.

If you want my opinion on who the enemy is, and I know alot of NSers wont agree, look no farther than Israels borders...those people beyond the borders are the real enemies of the Jews that you speak of, not Germans who are generally good people and at times, Jewish themself.

My family was/is German (and Austrian)....I would trust them. To be honest, this seperation of Jews and Germans...even though its possible to be a German Jew (my family) is retarded, and contributes TO the holocaust. Its the Jewish feeling of self isolation from the goyim...because "we are different".

I would trust any German, Jewish or Protestant, as much as I would trust any American, Jewish or Protestant....unless I had reason not to.

Come on now, you can be an American Jew, so why wouldnt it be possible to be a German Jew? Because the Nazis didnt allow it, oh please:rolleyes:

Like I said...one of the main reasons for hatred against Jews is because we, ourselves, many times refuse to admit that we *ARE* part of the general population. Not as Jews living in Berlin, Germany...but as Germans living in Berlin, Germany...who follow Judaism.

Yo yo AI. Here we go again:

The main problem with what you just said, is that one of the main reasons Jews are hated is because we don't consider ourselves part of the general population. So jjust because we are different we are hated? Thats not something new. We do consider ourselves part of the population but we put ourselves as Jews before our nationality because we are in exile from the holy land and that won't end until Moshiach comes and all world Jewry is united in Israel.

Also, like IDF said, German Jews who assimilated were sent to the gas chambers in the same cattle cars as the non assimilated ones.

I do disagree with IDF though that Jews shouldn't trust Germans. That's silly, the generation of Germans alive today is not hte same as those who committed the atrocities or allowed them to happen.

Yo yo AI. Here we go again:

The main problem with what you just said, is that one of the main reasons Jews are hated is because we don't consider ourselves part of the general population. So jjust because we are different we are hated? Thats not something new. We do consider ourselves part of the population but we put ourselves as Jews before our nationality because we are in exile from the holy land and that won't end until Moshiach comes and all world Jewry is united in Israel.

Also, like IDF said, German Jews who assimilated were sent to the gas chambers in the same cattle cars as the non assimilated ones.

I do disagree with IDF though that Jews shouldn't trust Germans. That's silly, the generation of Germans alive today is not hte same as those who committed the atrocities or allowed them to happen.

If you beleive that Jews belong in Israel and not in their countries of nationality...than yes, you will think what I said is wrong.

BUT, if you beleive that Jews are no more than Americans, or Germans, or Russians practicing Judaism...then you will beleive what I said is right.

And Germany was only one case, and while I'm not about to say the holocaust was Jews fault...I am gonna say that things would have been better in Europe if they would have assimilated better.

Like today, in America...we dont really have much anti-semitism, because lets face it...are Jews any different than the next American standing next to him?

Not really...and for sure not on appearance alone.

If you beleive that Jews belong in Israel and not in their countries of nationality...than yes, you will think what I said is wrong.

BUT, if you beleive that Jews are no more than Americans, or Germans, or Russians practicing Judaism...then you will beleive what I said is right.

And Germany was only one case, and while I'm not about to say the holocaust was Jews fault...I am gonna say that things would have been better in Europe if they would have assimilated better.

Like today, in America...we dont really have much anti-semitism, because lets face it...are Jews any different than the next American standing next to him?

Not really...and for sure not on appearance alone.


Those who practice Judaism believe in the coming of Moshiach and the redemption of the Jewish people in the land of Israel. That means that you believe the homeland of the Jewish people is in Israel.

About ur assimilation stuff...assimilation means adopting the culture of those around you while slowly eroding at your original culture which means eventually not practicing Judaism at all. G-d outlined a lifestyle for all Jews to follow and explicitly states that we are a light unto the nations and that we should be providing the example for the rest of the world...not the other way around.

I guess that's wishful thinking on the part of the Arabs. Enemy no 1 for most New Nazi groups in Germany these days are Turks and Arabs, not Jews.
Yeah right. You should tell that to Udo Voigt and Horst Mahler.
EDIT: And while your at it tell the ZDJ to not constantly frustrate the rest of us with ridiculous demands. It works counterproductive.

Yeah right. You should tell that to Udo Voigt and Horst Mahler.
EDIT: And while your at it tell the ZDJ to not constantly frustrate the rest of us with ridicalouse demands.

How many Jews were killed in the last 20 years by Neonazi attackers?
And how many Turks and Arabs?

And who or what is the ZDJ? Please keep in mind I no longer live in Germany...

How many Jews were killed in the last 20 years by Neonazi attackers?
You miss the point. Both Voigt and former RAF terrorist now convertet Neo-Nazi Mahler are regulars at Islamist gatherings. And it's certainly not to talk about how much both dislike Arabs and Turks and how much they want to get rid of them.;)
And how many Turks and Arabs?
I think it was something like 10 to 15 in the past 15 years. Eventhough if you believe the press one would think it's 10 to 15 an hour.

You miss the point. Both Voigt and former RAF terrorist now convertet Neo-Nazi Mahler are regulars at Islamist gatherings. And it's certainly not to talk about how much both dislike Arabs and Turks and how much they want to get rid of them.;)

I think it was something like 10 to 15 in the past 15 years. Eventhough if you believe the press one would think it's 10 to 15 an hour.

I'm not saying that all of a sudden, Neonazis started siding with Jews.
But I clearly remember the chants of "Deutschland den Deutschen! Auslaender raus!"
And seeing that Turkish people are the largest foreign minority, and that the average Neonazi is unlikely to make the fine dsitinction between Turkish and Arab...

I'm not saying that all of a sudden, Neonazis started siding with Jews.
But I clearly remember the chants of "Deutschland den Deutschen! Auslaender raus!"
And seeing that Turkish people are the largest foreign minority, and that the average Neonazi is unlikely to make the fine dsitinction between Turkish and Arab...
Thats the just the thug on the street. They are irrelevant. And the number of incidents is small. They just get blown up everytime. And sometimes even if it wasn't a neo-Nazi related incident. What is relevant however is what figureheads like Voigt and Mahler do and stand for. And they are clearly siding with the Islamists.

Thats the just the thug on the street. They are irrelevant. And the number of incidents is small. They just get blown up everytime. And sometimes even if it wasn't a neo-Nazi related incident. What is relevant however is what figureheads like Voigt and Mahler do and stand for. And they are clearly siding with the Islamists.

I somehow doubt they would remain standing for long if they lost their base. And their base is the common thug on the street and the disappointed unemployed guy who firmly believes he would have a job if there weren't so many Turkish around ...

I somehow doubt they would remain standing for long if they lost their base. And their base is the common thug on the street and the disappointed unemployed guy who firmly believes he would have a job if there weren't so many Turkish around ...
Oh they cater to their base as well. But just enough to keep them happy. But the NPD's main enemy is and always has been the Jew. So saying that Turks and Arabs have replaced Jews in their world as no.1 is false. Voigt was arrested last week for anti-Israel rants.

As many of you may be aware, many World Leaders are beginning to suggest an International Peace-keeping force along the Israeli-Lebanese border in the near future. This Peace-keeping force would undoubtedly contain an EU contingent, and that would ultimately involve a German presence. The question, in brief, is: is it right to expect the Germans to fill a position where they may have to point a gun at an Israeli (Jewish) soldier?


One simple point; this time the Jews are armed.

One simple point; this time the Jews are armed.
One simple point. Your an idiot.

The thought of a little eyebrow-raising over German troops in Israel is preposterous. People need to stop holing grudges.
The Germans are doing it themselves, dude. Other than a few old people in Israel, it's only been the German media that has been raising its eyebrows.

I believe the world shouldn't allow itself to be deceived by the illusion of a stable and democratic Germany. That may change very quickly. :(
Oooh, I like that one. That one is funny.

You have my permission to invade Germany if it abolishes its current democratic system and trades it for a dictatorship or something.

My rather open affection for Germany seems odd to my fellow Americans.
Seems odd to me!

I and most of my fellow Jews wouldn't trust a German with our lives. Even if they have no ties to Nazism, I just can't trust or forgive them. That's the way it is. You can't undo 6 million dead.
Tell that to these guys: http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/en/topic/136.html
You're being silly.
All of these guys have so much more reason to have a problem with Germany than the majority of Jews in Israel or the States. Unlike this "they committed a crime against my people", these guys actually experienced it all first hand. Almost every one of them. And every one of them still knows that they are German citizens and that they have just as much of a right and reason to be in Germany as anyone else, and they've been working towards that.

I honestly doubt Germany will want to be in this situation anyways. The EU would probably understand any objections by the Germans on the grounds it would be an uncomfortable situation.
That I fully agree with. Not only is the Bundeswehr quite stretched already with its current deployments, but the German public would probably like to avoid the situation alltogether.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2108778,00.html
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2105517,00.html
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/07/27/976631.html

You have my permission to invade Germany if it abolishes its current democratic system and trades it for a dictatorship or something.
You could help them to get rid of their distrust by killing your Nazi grandparents. Should they still be alive.:rolleyes:




That I fully agree with. Not only is the Bundeswehr quite stretched already with its current deployments, but the German public would probably like to avoid the situation alltogether.

And so they should. No German blood for either Hesbollah or Israel.

And so they should. No German blood for either Hesbollah or Israel.

As I understand it the mission would be to defend the Israeli/Lebanese border against both Israel and Hezbolla... so they wouldn't be fighting for anyone so much as against both sides.

You could help them to get rid of their distrust by killing your Nazi grandparents. Should they still be alive.:rolleyes:


Meh... my Nazi grandfather is dead. Good riddance to that bastard, too. The other one is a staunch Catholic and as such never was a member of the NSDAP...

As I understand it the mission would be to defend the Israeli/Lebanese border against both Israel and Hezbolla... so they wouldn't be fighting for anyone so much as against both sides.
Exactly. So it is more then likely they would get caught in the line of fire from either Israel or Hesbollah. Be it on accident or purpose. I for one do not want that to happen.

Exactly. So it is more then likely they would get caught in the line of fire from either Israel or Hesbollah. Be it on accident or purpose. I for one do not want that to happen.

That's most likely going to whoever gets sent down there in the end.
But I agree that it would cause unneccessary debate on too many sides if a German soldier actually had to shoot at an Israeli. And if he had to shoot at a Hezbolla fighter, Germany might lose its credence as a reliable, unbiased intermediary with the Arab nations.

Meh... my Nazi grandfather is dead. Good riddance to that bastard, too. The other one is a staunch Catholic and as such never was a member of the NSDAP...
Oh but everyone born before '45 is quilty.

That's most likely going to whoever gets sent down there in the end.
But I agree that it would cause unneccessary debate on too many sides if a German soldier actually had to shoot at an Israeli. And if he had to shoot at a Hezbolla fighter, Germany might lose its credence as a reliable, unbiased intermediary with the Arab nations.
Exactly. Whatever action a German would take to enforce the UN mandate is going to be interpreted as a pro standing for the other. And so I say no Germans, Dutch, French or other troops for the region. Let them sort it out themselves.

Oh but everyone born before '45 is quilty.

Right. My grandmother was born in 1933... care to point out what she's guilty of?
My other grandmother is not even German.

Right. My grandmother was born in 1933... care to point out what she's guilty of?
My other grandmother is not even German.
Thats NL's opinion. She is quilty and a knowing accomplice.

Exactly. Whatever action a German would take to enforce the UN mandate is going to be interpreted as a pro standing for the other. And so I say no Germans, Dutch, French or other troops for the region. Let them sort it out themselves.

Oh, not good. They will eventually draw the entire region into the conflict, especially as Hezbolla might well move on from Lebanon into another country. Intervention is necessary, although it can hopefully be solved (or at least stopped for the moment to give both parties time to sort out some form of agreement) by peace talks rather than armed missions.

Thats NL's opinion. She is quilty and a knowing accomplice.

Huh? :confused:

Oh, not good. They will eventually draw the entire region into the conflict, especially as Hezbolla might well move on from Lebanon into another country. Intervention is necessary, although it can hopefully be solved (or at least stopped for the moment to give both parties time to sort out some form of agreement) by peace talks rather than armed missions.
Sorry. But I'm not that optimistic. Peace talks are just that down there. Talk. Either you let them sort it out. Or you will commit troops to an armed intervention with a high loss of life. Everything else is just putting off the inevitable.

Huh? :confused:
Oh yeah. He told me so.

Thats NL's opinion. She is quilty and a knowing accomplice.
:eek:
What did I say?

I have four grandparents born before '45 (well, five, one's dead and I've got a step-grandfather).
Of three of them I know they were too young to do anything. Although if they wouldn't have hidden my grandpa in the attic, they would've drafted him into the defense of Berlin.

My step-grandfather is a bit older, and he was with the 6th Army in Stalingrad. In a past discussion I said that I didn't know whether he'd seen or done anything bad, no more and no less. I'm not willing to give people the benefit of the doubt for no reason, and the 6th, like all Wehrmacht forces, was at some point involved in nasty stuff.

My step-grandfather is a bit older, and he was with the 6th Army in Stalingrad. In a past discussion I said that I didn't know whether he'd seen or done anything bad, no more and no less. I'm not willing to give people the benefit of the doubt for no reason, and the 6th, like all Wehrmacht forces, was at some point involved in nasty stuff.
Yes. And so you paint brushed everyone who was alive back then as knowing accomplices and fanatic Nazi's.

Sorry. But I'm not that optimistic. Peace talks are just that down there. Talk. Either you let them sort it out. Or you will commit troops to an armed intervention with a high loss of life. Everything else is just putting off the inevitable.

They won't "sort it out".
This has to be a first time ever, but in this case I'm for an international invention to stop both sides from going any further on this.

They won't "sort it out".
Sure they will. One way or the other.

This has to be a first time ever, but in this case I'm for an international invention to stop both sides from going any further on this.
By making the international troops act as lightning rods, targets, for the parties involved? No thanks.

Yes. And so you paint brushed everyone who was alive back then as knowing accomplices and fanatic Nazi's.
If that is what you want to take out of it, go ahead. :rolleyes:

Fact of the matter is that the Wehrmacht cleared out civilians in droves one way or another. I don't know what exact position he had, he never talks about his experiences.

Add to that the general consensus within the Army that Germans are superior people and that the Russians have no right to live there anyways, and there might be a good chance that I wouldn't like my step-grandpa much if I met him at twenty or however old he was.

I know, you consider that sort of thing high-treason, but quite frankly, I don't really care. I can't prove anything, nor do I want to. But I can't exclude the possibility, precisely because he's never talked about it.
And I'm not one of those pathetic ones who runs around proclaiming "Oh, my relatives all hated the Nazis! They were all resistance and so on!"
I know my great-grandfather was a registered member of the SPD, so he never got along with them. But that's all I know about these guys' political views. And just like I don't presume guilt, I don't presume total innocence. I presume something in the middle somewhere around "I don't give a shit".

Note that I never accepted the "We didn't know"-excuse. They may not have known the full extent of what was happening, but let's face it - Rassenkunde at school, Jews disappearing from public life and harassed in the streets, their shops plundered, the persecution of commies, socialists and all sorts of other deviants...it forms the picture of something I could never have tolerated.

And as I said, those who were too young to know and understand much about what happened don't really count, since they didn't get to form an opinion.

As many of you may be aware, many World Leaders are beginning to suggest an International Peace-keeping force along the Israeli-Lebanese border in the near future. This Peace-keeping force would undoubtedly contain an EU contingent, and that would ultimately involve a German presence. The question, in brief, is: is it right to expect the Germans to fill a position where they may have to point a gun at an Israeli (Jewish) soldier?

Obviously, many Israelis may feel that it is insensitive to give the Nation that culled millions of their people (and indeed, some of their close loved ones) the right to patrol Israel, the Jewish nation, that was specifically created to avoid European (and elsewhere's) agression. Also on the German side, a state that only recently amended their constitution to even accept the uses of a deployable military, is it an unfair reminder of the guilt the Germans must hold for allowing the world's most evil man to take over their democracy.

Of course, it could also be said that this was 60 years ago, and that no-one today serious expects the German people to begin a genocide of Jews afresh, and that this fear is not based in reality.

So what do you think? Is there something fundamentally wrong with arming a German and face him towards Israel? Or should the World recognise that Germany is a responsible power and should be expected to take part in its share of World Policing? It would be interesting to hear some German and Israeli opinions.


I have no stake in it and really don't care, but it's been three generations already. Poland, France, Russia and many other nations have (if not exactly forgiven) Germany for WW2 they've put it in the past.

And it isn't like the Israelis haven't been hunting ex-Nazis all over the Earth for the past 60 years. Or that Germany didn't pay for it's belligerence during the Cold War years.

All in all, at this point I don't really consider it an isssue. At least, it shouldn't be.

Why do people still equate Germany with Naziism? Are they still in power? Does anti-Semitism dominate the lives of German citizens?

No. The world, it seems (mostly ignorant ameikuns), have this bias against anything German (unless its a car). The thought of a little eyebrow-raising over German troops in Israel is preposterous. People need to stop holing grudges.

Is it a fact that Israelis are complaining about German troops? Because that would make them in a group with the Nazis themselves. Hating another person for no reason other than perceived offenses.

Not to be anti-Semitic, but it seems to me that Israel has become arrogant recently, acting as if they have some authority stemming from past greivances. Like they deserve more aid than the Lebanese or something.

Well, the Germans of today are as reponsible for the Nazis of yesterday as the Jews of today are oppressed as much as the Jews of yesterday.

(does that make sense?)

Gimme a break, people change. Oh n0es, t3h n4z1s r g0nn3 5h00t t3h j3\/\/5!

:rolleyes: cannot fully describe my feeling right now.

(I live in the US, and am of German descent, and hate when people even begin to equate present-day Germany with the Nazi Era. It's almost personal to me.[especially England at the World Cup, goose-stepping and saluting. that's just offensive, and i dont even live there :mad: .] So dont take this wrong.)


then insult the english for goosestepping at the world cup...not "amerikuns"
cause i have lived here(america) my whole life...and i never heard a sour word about germans,my grandfather was in ww1,was awarded the cmh for obvious reasons,and after the war,and he told me all kinds of war stories..never said a bad word about germans.
my uncle was in ww2 and my wifes dad as well....they considered the germans tough hard soldiers doing there job...again no ill words...the only ill i heard spoken about germans was about the blind citizens claiming they did not know what was happening in the camps.

the average german soldier treated our guys pretty decently from what i heard...now the japanese was a whole nother story.

so you know where you can put your anti american crap...your as bad as what you purport to be so offended by.

be pissed at the brits for what they did at the world cup.

your borderline culturally rascist if you ask me.

I have no stake in it and really don't care, but it's been three generations already. Poland, France, Russia and many other nations have (if not exactly forgiven) Germany for WW2 they've put it in the past.

And it isn't like the Israelis haven't been hunting ex-Nazis all over the Earth for the past 60 years. Or that Germany didn't pay for it's belligerence during the Cold War years.

All in all, at this point I don't really consider it an isssue. At least, it shouldn't be.

It is still an issue, and it will remain one as long as there are both victims and perpetrators are still alive.
It's not as much of an issue as it was 40 years ago, or 20 years ago. But it is part of German and part of Israeli history, and it does shape the identity of both, be that positive or negative.