NationStates Jolt Archive

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..

I have a friend who is 13 years old....I am 13 as well and he doesnt know if being gay is a bad thing...I cant control his feelings for guys. At school he says that he isnt gay but he is.. He tells me he is scared to "come out".. He doesnt know if god "hates" gays. He is Christain but doesnt know if being gay is a sin that may lead you to hell or become shamed in gods eyes!

Please help!!!

Well, perhaps he should ask his minister. Different religions have different views on the subject.

Even in christianity, being gay is not a sin. And it is debatable weather christianity even states that acting on your homosexuality is a sin either.

But any way, being gay is definately not a sin.

I have a friend who is 13 years old....I am 13 as well and he doesnt know if being gay is a bad thing...I cant control his feelings for guys. At school he says that he isnt gay but he is.. He tells me he is scared to "come out".. He doesnt know if god "hates" gays. He is Christain but doesnt know if being gay is a sin that may lead you to hell or become shamed in gods eyes!

Please help!!!

I'm not Christian and I'm not gay. But I think that it's only the Christian interpretation of God that hates gays. If there is a deity I think he/she either hates us all or doesn't hate any of us.

In any case, he's too young to have to sweat this stuff, and it's miserable that we have a culture where this has to be an issue for a kid to deal with.

Well, perhaps he should ask his minister. Different religions have different views on the subject.

Doesnt have a minister!

I have a friend who is 13 years old....I am 13 as well and he doesnt know if being gay is a bad thing...I cant control his feelings for guys. At school he says that he isnt gay but he is.. He tells me he is scared to "come out".. He doesnt know if god "hates" gays. He is Christain but doesnt know if being gay is a sin that may lead you to hell or become shamed in gods eyes!

Please help!!!

Being gay is NOT a sin, and God will not hate him for it. As a Christian-turned-agnostic, I know that God does not hate gays OR their lifestyle. The Bible has been screwed around with millions of times over the last 1600 years or so, and the Vatican is homophobic, at any rate. So no, tell your friend that God will love him anyways, and that he won't go to hell for being gay.

being gay isnt a sin

having a crush on other boys isnt a sin. kissing other boys isnt a sin.

sex is inappropriate at 13. when he is old enough to decide on his own if gay sex is a sin, he will probably be old enough to have whatever kind of sex seems right to him at that time.

I have a friend who is 13 years old....I am 13 as well and he doesnt know if being gay is a bad thing...I cant control his feelings for guys. At school he says that he isnt gay but he is.. He tells me he is scared to "come out".. He doesnt know if god "hates" gays. He is Christain but doesnt know if being gay is a sin that may lead you to hell or become shamed in gods eyes!

Please help!!!

He's 13, is he sure he's gay?

He should talk to someone older, maybe the school psychologist or someone like that. Someone impartial who can guide him to make his own choice.

it's only the Christian interpretation of God that hates gays.


Ugh, what a stupid statement. In Christianity, you are not suppost to "hate" anybody. Maybe a few fundamentalists do, but you shouldn't blanket the whole of the christian faith with that absurd statement.

so he assumes that if he keeps it secret (except for to a few people) that an all-knowing, all powerful god won't know? I should think that God would be much more upset about him lying to himself and everyone else than him being gay (not to mention, it does shit for your self-worth).

Homosexuality isn't sinful.

Acting on homosexuality, by extension, shouldn't be sinful.

Gay pride may be sinful, but only because of the pride bit, not the gay bit.

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..Just gotta love a religion that makes certain minorities a "Sin"...

The Bible is wide open to interpretation though. The bits about having homosexual relations might refer to temple prostitution & not be relevant to anyone alive today.

Be gay if it makes you happy, and don't fear gods & daemons. The only thing you should fear is not living up to your full potential.

How is being gay a sin? God forgave all of that stuff when Jesus was crucified on the cross. Also, there is no direct statement that god hates homosexuals. When he struck down Sodom and Gomora(sp?) it is debatable wheter he was doing it because they were gay or because they were selling themselves. And to everyone who is saying he is too young to know this stuff, I knew I liked girls for a fact all my life, and it is the same with someone who likes guys. And to anyone who thinks or says that being gay is a choice, and that it is a sin :upyours: .

Ugh, what a stupid statement. In Christianity, you are not suppost to "hate" anybody. Maybe a few fundamentalists do, but you shouldn't blanket the whole of the christian faith with that absurd statement.

I will amend that to "it's only the interpretation of God made by certain Christian cults." Is that better?

Still, why do so many people have the understanding that Christians hate gays if it isn't so?

I will amend that to "it's only the interpretation of God made by certain Christian cults." Is that better?


Good.;)


Still, why do so many people have the understanding that Christians hate gays if it isn't so?

Propagander

My understanding as a Christian is that being gay in and of itself is not a sin, but that acting on it is considered a sin by some factions.

If he doesn't have a minister or clergyman he can talk to, then it would seem he's not particularly religious -- so why worry about whether it is a sin or not?

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..
Tell him that I have read the Bible cover-to-cover at least three times and can find nothing which says that a gay cannot be a Christian. He needs to attend a church which focuses on the love of God, not all the patriachism of the old testament.

I'm not Christian and I'm not gay. But I think that it's only the Christian interpretation of God that hates gays....


Nope, it is also against the Muslim belief as well.

Ask God. Tell him to take the silence as a 'No' to his question.

Tell him that I have read the Bible cover-to-cover at least three times and can find nothing which says that a gay cannot be a Christian. He needs to attend a church which focuses on the love of God, not all the patriachism of the old testament.

He prays to god and knows that god comes befor everything else. His parents are divorced so he lives at his moms and they dont go to church but when he visits his dad they do go....He told me when he has a chance he will get a bible and go to church on his own but only when he can drive!

He prays to god and knows that god comes befor everything else. His parents are divorced so he lives at his moms and they dont go to church but when he visits his dad they do go....He told me when he has a chance he will get a bible and go to church on his own but only when he can drive!
Believe it or not, there are a number of churches which are friendly to gays. I can't name specific ones, but I've seen articles about them from time to time. Tell him ( when he can drive ) that he should seek out those churches and check them out to see which ones appeal the most to him. He also needs to understand that these same churches will most likely endorse the Christian approach to monogomy for gays as well as for heteros.

I have a Christian friend (and I too am Christian), and he is very homophobic. He continually states that god hates gays and their all going to hell. Personally I don't think its a sin, we choose to sin. Do people choose to be gay? Who would want that life. Who chooses to say "I'd like to be part of a discriminated minority and have the chance of my friends or family shuning me"? His attitude annoys me very much and I have tried to point out to him the many arguments against it. First of all, if homosexuality must be a sin (meaning he's not going to look at it any other way), didn't Jesus pay penence for all sin when he went to the cross? Even the bible says "for god so loved the world" not "for god so loved all the strait people." Doesn't this mean that god doesn't hate gay people and that as long as they to belive in Jesus that they are not going to hell, but to heaven?

*snip*

Yes, and I think that if your friend believes in the Christian God, who is, according to Christian belief, all loving, it is sinful and slanderous to say that he hates anything.

First and foremost, everyone must understand that sexual development varies in people. I knew I was gay at age 13 as well. I counsel young gays and lesbians and this is how I answer (in general terms).
_____________________________________________________________

God loves you, he does not hate you for being gay. He will not hate you for having sex with someone you care about when the time is right and you understand your responsibilities to your partner/lover/significant. Being a teenager is the cruelest thing, you are judged by your peers every day for things that they have no business judging you for. They simply do not understand and are not going through the same thing you are.

Be yourself, do not allow yourself to be depressed. They don't understand and they are not inclined to understand what you are going through. Be above the fray. Be a good person. Your sexuality will always be there, try to understand yourself and the world a little better before jumping into the pool.

Never forget you are a good person. Respect yourself and ignore the knuckleheads who don't even understand their own religion, much less you.
________________________________________________________________

Do people choose to be gay? Who would want that life.

:rolleyes:

Contrary to popular belief, we don't all have horrible, horrible, empty, lonely, tragicomic lives that we end by slitting our wrists. Most of us don't mind being gay at all. Some of us even love it. Imagine that.

Ugh, people! There are others a lot more deserving of your patronising pity.

sex is inappropriate at 13
BAH! No it ain't!

We're all talking about it, like the biggest problem is whether God hates gay people or not. Normally the Christian God is love so he doesn't hate anyone, not even non-believers. But the Bible states it as a sin:
'Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" '

'Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." '

For more information about this, go to this site: http://www.carm.org/questions/homosexuality.htm

But I don't think that that is the biggest issue. The biggest issue is that he doesn't dare to say it aloud, which I can understand. Because at the age of 13 most kids are ashamed of things that doe not fit with the "normal views". Lets hope he won't hide it forever.

BAH! No it ain't!
While many are sexually mature at 13, almost none have sufficient emotional maturity to handle sex. This is one of the primay reasons so many young people have STDs and teenage pregnancies. :(

Do people choose to be gay?

Nope. It's not a choosing thing, but it's real causes are only theorized.

I'm still figuring out the whole gay christian thing
I mean come on a real christian can't be gay

Nope. It's not a choosing thing, but it's real causes are only theorized.
yes it is

While many are sexually mature at 13, almost none have sufficient emotional maturity to handle sex. This is one of the primay reasons so many young people have STDs and teenage pregnancies. :(
Yeah... that's true...

Although the phrase "handle sex" calls up A Few Good Men...
Kaffee: I want sex!
Jessep: You can't handle sex!

I'm still figuring out the whole gay christian thing
I mean come on a real christian can't be gay

Why Not?

yes it is

Clearly you don't understand. I didn't choose to be bisexual. I just know I am because I'm attracted to men and women.

Out of interest, did he ask for help directly from you, and if so, does he actually mind he's being talked about in a random online forum?

As for the actual issue, anything I would say has already been said. S'not a sin, it's just natural for some.

Why Not?
Because then the Devil wins.

Although, it would kick ass if the Devils won. Martin Brodeur FTW!

Because then the Devil wins.

Although, it would kick ass if the Devils won. Martin Brodeur FTW!

You choose your religion

I dont believe, from what I know, that you choose your sexuality.

You could be a gay christian and choose not to act on it because of your religion I suppose.

At 13 you're not too young to know that you're gay. I fancied guys when I was ten. But yeah, most Christians have the sense to recognise that being gay is not a sin in itself. Luckily, your friend seems to have accepted his homosexuality fairly early, rather than repressing it until he's married with kids.

Because of this, frankly, he'll probably reject his religion if it conflicts with his own acceptance. This doesn't mean he'll lose faith in his god; it just means he'll lose faith in his denomination's interpretation of the bible.

You choose your religion

I dont believe, from what I know, that you choose your sexuality.

You could be a gay christian and choose not to act on it because of your religion I suppose.
Uh, my post wasn't serious at all...

Oh, and true Chistianity is not against homosexuality. It only really says "Love God, love thy neighbor"... And even the 10 Commandments and 7 Deadly Sins don't say anything against *insert humorous but inoffensive euphemism for homosexuality here*.

Uh, my post wasn't serious at all...

Oh, and true Chistianity is not against homosexuality. It only really says "Love God, love thy neighbor"... And even the 10 Commandments and 7 Deadly Sins don't say anything against *insert humorous but inoffensive euphemism for homosexuality here*.

ah

see, thats the trouble with the net.. you cant tell sarcasim sometimes ;)

*reads your posts with an irish accent, just cuz it's dreamy*

:p

Uh, my post wasn't serious at all...

Oh, and true Chistianity is not against homosexuality. It only really says "Love God, love thy neighbor"... And even the 10 Commandments and 7 Deadly Sins don't say anything against *insert humorous but inoffensive euphemism for homosexuality here*.

yea but the 10 commandments and 7 Deadly Sins don't say anything about incest either

Why Not?it's not right
it's that simple

it's not right
it's that simple
Why is it not right?

Why Not?

got to this site and read it (especially the last part):
http://www.carm.org/questions/homosexuality.htm

yea but the 10 commandments and 7 Deadly Sins don't say anything about incest either
What is it that everyone has against incest?! :fluffle:

Sorry, Mstreeted, but I'm actually an Irish American. Which makes me sad.

it's not right
it's that simple

It's Never Simple.

Or every gay thread on NS wouldn't end up with hundreds of posts in them.

To you it's wrong. That doesnt mean others have to agree. And it doesnt give those who believe it to be wrong the right to judge and condem those who don't follow the same beliefs, what ever the topic.

it's not right
it's that simple
How do we argue with this? Ah...

It is right
It is that simple

What is it that everyone has against incest?! :fluffle:

Sorry, Mstreeted, but I'm actually an Irish American. Which makes me sad.

Doh!

got to this site and read it (especially the last part):
http://www.carm.org/questions/homosexuality.htm
anything found in the OT is irrelevant to Christianity, as you are no longer bound by the covenant.
As for the NT, those are easily interpreted differently, as well as the fact that they are translations, and the original languages are hardly that cut and dry.

Now, rather than linking us to a website, lets hear YOUR arguments.

Leviticus 20:13 specifically describes homosexual acts as punishable by certain death. There is no ambiguity there.

Of course, the self-same chapter also prohibits beard trimming, the mixing of different materials and the selective breeding of animals, so it's safe to say that much of the advice from that chapter is irrelevant (unless you truly believe that the Bible is the uncorrupted word of God).

I'm also joining the "13 is too young to be sure of your sexuality" bandwagon.

What is it that everyone has against incest?! :fluffle:

Sorry, Mstreeted, but I'm actually an Irish American. Which makes me sad.


I'm not saying I'm against it. I just say that it isn't stated in it like anything about gay people, so if Christians don't have anything against gay people, they shouldn't have anything against people doing incest.

it's not right
it's that simple

There's homosexuality in other animals.

I'm not saying I'm against it. I just say that it isn't stated in it like anything about gay people, so if Christians don't have anything against gay people, they shouldn't have anything against people doing incest.
You're pro-incest?! :eek: (...Is that even a stance?)
EDIT: You don't "do incest" you become part of an incestuous relationship.

anything found in the OT is irrelevant to Christianity, as you are no longer bound by the covenant.

I really have trouble understanding this about Christianity. If the book is irrelevant and useless, why is the Old Testament even used or kept in the Bible? Especially since some contemporary Christians claim its laws and regulations directly contradict the basic concepts of Christianity?

Leviticus 20:13 specifically describes homosexual acts as punishable by certain death. There is no ambiguity there.

Of course, the self-same chapter also prohibits beard trimming, the mixing of different materials and the selective breeding of animals, so it's safe to say that much of the advice from that chapter is irrelevant (unless you truly believe that the Bible is the uncorrupted word of God).Actually, one of the popes (I forget which one) declared the laws of the OT don't apply to christians along with getting rid of circumcision. And there is alot of ambiguity in that verse. The English translation makes it seem cut and dry, but the hebrew reads something more like "Man with man like woman, bad"
Additionally, a man would not lie with a woman as they would with a man, as a man doesn't have a vagina. And a gay man would not lie with a woman anyway.

I'm also joining the "13 is too young to be sure of your sexuality" bandwagon.

I'm staying away from that. I'm 14 (almost 15) and I'm 100% sure that I'm bisexual.

There's homosexuality in other animals.
Those puppies will burn in hell.

anything found in the OT is irrelevant to Christianity, as you are no longer bound by the covenant.
As for the NT, those are easily interpreted differently, as well as the fact that they are translations, and the original languages are hardly that cut and dry.

Now, rather than linking us to a website, lets hear YOUR arguments.

Fine: I'm not against gay people because they are people too and why should we hate people why love people from the same gender, and it isn't something you choose, you are gay or you aren't gay, whether you like it or not.

I'm staying away from that. I'm 14 (almost 15) and I'm 100% sure that I'm bisexual.
You and 32.374837284% of the forum.

Actually, one of the popes (I forget which one) declared the laws of the OT don't apply to christians along with getting rid of circumcision. And there is alot of ambiguity in that verse. The English translation makes it seem cut and dry, but the hebrew reads something more like "Man with man like woman, bad"
Additionally, a man would not lie with a woman as they would with a man, as a man doesn't have a vagina. And a gay man would not lie with a woman anyway.

Unless it's a bisexual man that has buttsex with women. :p

I really have trouble understanding this about Christianity. If the book is irrelevant and useless, why is the Old Testament even used or kept in the Bible? Especially since some contemporary Christians claim its laws and regulations directly contradict the basic concepts of Christianity?
I've never understood it either. I've really never understood why people focus so much on one verse, while ignoring another (such as the "ban on gays" vs. the "ban on shaving"). Best I can tell is leviticus is ignored, while the 10 commandments are supported. Go figure.

I'm not saying I'm against it. I just say that it isn't stated in it like anything about gay people, so if Christians don't have anything against gay people, they shouldn't have anything against people doing incest.

This is a highly relevant point. The Old Testament specifically prohibits incest, bestiality and other sexual "deviances" - if it's now completely nullified by the coming of Jesus, why are these two, perfectly acceptable practices still frowned on and banned?

You and 32.374837284% of the forum.

There's more bisexual men here my age? SWEET!! ;)

You're pro-incest?! :eek: (...Is that even a stance?)
EDIT: You don't "do incest" you become part of an incestuous relationship.

Have I said that I was pro-incest? I don't think so, so don't say that I did.

Sorry for my mistake, but I don't know every rule in the English language. But thanks for correcting me.

Additionally, a man would not lie with a woman as they would with a man, as a man doesn't have a vagina.

Why would God even bother to put something like that if that was truly his meaning? Does he really think we're that stupid?

This is a highly relevant point. The Old Testament specifically prohibits incest, bestiality and other sexual "deviances" - if it's now completely nullified by the coming of Jesus, why are these two, perfectly acceptable practices still frowned on and banned?

Not in Arkansas :p

I have nothing against either of those. I personally think that they're.. rather gross, but I'm not against them since it is none of my buisness what goes on in other people's bedrooms.

Fine: I'm not against gay people because they are people too and why should we hate people why love people from the same gender, and it isn't something you choose, you are gay or you aren't gay, whether you like it or not.
yet you're linking to a website that states that homosexuality is wrong

Why would God even bother to put something like that if that was truly his meaning? Does he really think we're that stupid?
Yes:

Proverbs chapter 20 (CEV)

1It isn't smart to get drunk!
Drinking makes a fool of you
and leads to fights.


Or a bit less funny:

20:1. Wine is a luxurious thing, and drunkenness riotous: whosoever is delighted therewith, shall not be wise.
Luxuriosa res vinum et tumultuosa ebrietas quicumque his delectatur non erit sapiens

yet you're linking to a website that states that homosexuality is wrong

That was to show you the vision of the church/bible/christianity-bullshit thing.

This is a highly relevant point. The Old Testament specifically prohibits incest, bestiality and other sexual "deviances" - if it's now completely nullified by the coming of Jesus, why are these two, perfectly acceptable practices still frowned on and banned?
I personally call it the "ick" factor:)

Why would God even bother to put something like that if that was truly his meaning? Does he really think we're that stupid?
That would be assuming the bible was literally written by and then translated by God himself with no mistakes, additions, or changes by the men doing the work. That alone doesn't make sense considering the vast number of English translations there are today, all of which are different.

That was to show you the vision of the church/bible/christianity-bullshit thing.
ahhhhhhhhhh...okay. I get it now.

That would be assuming the bible was literally written by and then translated by God himself with no mistakes, additions, or changes by the men doing the work. That alone doesn't make sense considering the vast number of English translations there are today, all of which are different.
I've decided to hold out for the directors cut.

This is a highly relevant point. The Old Testament specifically prohibits incest, bestiality and other sexual "deviances" - if it's now completely nullified by the coming of Jesus, why are these two, perfectly acceptable practices still frowned on and banned?

Well aparently: "anything found in the OT is irrelevant to Christianity, as you are no longer bound by the covenant."
So you're arguments don't make sense anymore for the christians.
And incest isn't illegal (in Belgium) at least not that I know.

Well aparently: "anything found in the OT is irrelevant to Christianity, as you are no longer bound by the covenant."
So you're arguments don't make sense anymore for the christians.
perhaps "irrelevant" was a poor choice of words. I think "inconsequential" or "non-binding" might fit better.

However, it is true, as dictated by one of the Popes (again, name escapes me) before the protestant break. Or else it would be a sin for you to have a clean-shaven face or to eat shellfish and pork (although, it could be argued that Jesus said it was okay to eat anything somewhere in Mark)

I've decided to hold out for the directors cut.
I'm personally waiting untill I can speak with the director myself. There are some flow/plot issues that really just need to be hammered out.

And a gay man would not lie with a woman anyway.
They would if they knew what they were missing.
Being bi kicks ass. I get the best of both worlds... until I join the army.

Have I said that I was pro-incest? I don't think so, so don't say that I did.
Chill out. I was only joking. It's what I do.

However, it is true, as dictated by one of the Popes (again, name escapes me) before the protestant break.

The Catholic Church has other reasons for opposing homosexuality aside from verses in Leviticus, though. The New Testament doesn't ban condoms either.

The Catholic Church has other reasons for opposing homosexuality aside from verses in Leviticus, though. The New Testament doesn't ban condoms either.
well, I could go into the whole "Catholic Church goes against Jesus", but alas, that is for a different thread.

My point in stating that it was a pope before the protestant break is that what he dictated would apply to all churches that didn't spawn from the Eastern churches (and the decree may have come before that split even...)

Jesus himself does a fair job splitting from the OT laws and rules...the pope just got rid of those final few hanging on (such as circumcision)

The Catholic Church has other reasons for opposing homosexuality aside from verses in Leviticus, though. The New Testament doesn't ban condoms either.

Really? Is it stated somewhere in the NT something like "if a man and a women want to have sex but they do not wat to have children, then they can put something on his dick to prevent having babies"?

Really? Is it stated somewhere in the NT something like "if a man and a women want to have sex but they do not wat to have children, then they can put something on his dick to prevent having babies"?
Does it say we can't?

They would if they knew what they were missing.
Being bi kicks ass. I get the best of both worlds... until I join the army.

Yes! Another bi man! *high fives*

Really? Is it stated somewhere in the NT something like "if a man and a women want to have sex but they do not wat to have children, then they can put something on his dick to prevent having babies"?
It isn't argued for or against in the bible. Same is it doesn't say we can do it, it doesn't say we can't.

Really? Is it stated somewhere in the NT something like "if a man and a women want to have sex but they do not wat to have children, then they can put something on his dick to prevent having babies"?

I didn't say the Catholic Church contradicts the New Testament. All I said was that, at least to my knowledge, there is no explicit prohibition in the NT.

They would if they knew what they were missing.
Being bi kicks ass. I get the best of both worlds... until I join the army.


Chill out. I was only joking. It's what I do.
I dunno...those military guys are pretty good looking...

Does it say we can't?

I don't know, I don't know the bible by heart, but Soheran said christians could which means is must be stated in the bible, right?

I don't know, I don't know the bible by heart, but Soheran said christians could which means is must be stated in the bible, right?
the bible holds very few Christian ideals. Most of those come from the dogma associated with religion, such as taking the word of the Pope to be a dictation from God when speaking on religious topics (such as the morality of condoms). There is no mention of contraception (and more specifically, condoms) in the Bible.

Really? Is it stated somewhere in the NT something like "if a man and a women want to have sex but they do not wat to have children, then they can put something on his dick to prevent having babies"?

The implication of the story of Onan is that you're not supposed to spill the seed anywhere except a vagina.

the bible holds very few Christian ideals. Most of those come from the dogma associated with religion, such as taking the word of the Pope to be a dictation from God when speaking on religious topics (such as the morality of condoms). There is no mention of contraception (and more specifically, condoms) in the Bible.

So still, christians can't use condoms, because the pope forbids them to.

I dunno...those military guys are pretty good looking...
You can't be openly bisexual/homosexual and be in the US military. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is what they call it.

The implication of the story of Onan is that you're not supposed to spill the seed anywhere except a vagina.
of course, that also rules against masturbation. And a truly loving and compassionate God would never deal out eternal damnation for something so fun.;)

I don't know, I don't know the bible by heart, but Soheran said christians could which means is must be stated in the bible, right?

I did? Where?

I said: The New Testament doesn't ban condoms either.

The major branches of Christianity, historically, have most definitely banned artificial birth control methods.

Really? Is it stated somewhere in the NT something like "if a man and a women want to have sex but they do not wat to have children, then they can put something on his dick to prevent having babies"?

Is it stated somewhere in the NT something like "Men can wear pants?"

I don't think so. That doesn't mean the bible bans pants.

You can't be openly bisexual/homosexual and be in the US military. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is what they call it.
yeah, I know. Dumb policy if you ask me. But look at it this way...you can't be the only one there...

And everyone gets a bit lonely after long enough.

The implication of the story of Onan is that you're not supposed to spill the seed anywhere except a vagina.

I could never live with a book that condemns masturbating.

of course, that also rules against masturbation. And a truly loving and compassionate God would never deal out eternal damnation for something so fun.;)

God did, in fact kill Onan for spilling the seed. So says the OT.

Really? Is it stated somewhere in the NT something like "if a man and a women want to have sex but they do not wat to have children, then they can put something on his dick to prevent having babies"?
All you have to do is pray to God for birth control:

"3. God has the ability to "open and close" the womb causing conception or not.

"Ephraim's glory will fly away like a bird - no birth, no pregnancy, no conception." [Hosea 9:11] (God will prevent it)

"The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, "You are sterile and childless, but you are going to conceive and have a son." [Judges 13:3]

"Boaz took Ruth and she became his wife. Then he went to her, and the LORD enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son." [Ruth 4:13]

"When the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren (womb kept closed by God)." [Genesis 29:31]

"Then God remembered Rachel; he listened to her and opened her womb." [Genesis 30:22]

"But to Hannah he gave a double portion because he loved her, and the LORD had closed her womb." [1 Samuel 1:5]

So we can easily see, that God is capable of opening and closing the womb, therefore controlling birth. But now it comes down to a question can God be trusted to control the number of births, providing just the right number for the couple?"
http://www.biblebb.com/files/tonyqa/tc99-10.htm

Who better than God to decide how many children you should be having?

You can't be openly bisexual/homosexual and be in the US military. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is what they call it.

Sweet! An easy ticket out of the military draft! :p

I could never live with a book that condemns masturbating.

Nor could I, I was just pointing out some useful (or useless) Bible information about seed spilling and condoms.

The implication of the story of Onan is that you're not supposed to spill the seed anywhere except a vagina.

The teaching is also tied to the notion that the nature of the sexual act requires it to have a procreative capability in order for it to be acceptable. Which, of course, is also a reason to oppose homosexual intercourse.

Sweet! An easy ticket out of the military draft! :p
Yup, a lot of people used that as an excuse to get out of Vietnam, I believe.

And everyone gets a bit lonely after long enough.
...You sound like a prisoner in the showers...

Is it stated somewhere in the NT something like "Men can wear pants?"

I don't think so. That doesn't mean the bible bans pants.

No, but the pope did forbid the use of condoms, and not the use of pants. Though it would be fun, a world with only nude people.

No, but the pope did forbid the use of condoms, and not the use of pants. Though it would be fun, a world with only nude people.

Right. So... he said the pope had other reasons to ban condoms than the bible. Which, if it doesn't ban it in the bible he must have. And I can't imagine the pope forbidding the use of pants. Although it would be interesting to see what the reaction would be. Time to start a new thread!

God did, in fact kill Onan for spilling the seed. So says the OT.
yes, I know. And I was joking around.

God did, in fact kill Onan for spilling the seed. So says the OT.

6 And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar. 7 And Er, Judah's first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. 8 And Judah said unto Onan: 'Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother.' 9 And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of the LORD; and He slew him also.

A variant interpretation is that Onan's sin was his refusal to fulfill his duty, not the mere fact that he "spilled his seed."

Yup, a lot of people used that as an excuse to get out of Vietnam, I believe.[/QUOITE]

All I have to do is wait till the next draft, then I can whip it out and get away scot-free. Except then my family will know.

[QUOTE]...You sound like a prisoner in the showers...

:eek:

You know what one sounds like?

You know come to think of it, God's anger at Adam and Eve for donning clothing could be construed as an anti-pants Bible passage..

Right. So... he said the pope had other reasons to ban condoms than the bible. Which, if it doesn't ban it in the bible he must have. And I can't imagine the pope forbidding the use of pants. Although it would be interesting to see what the reaction would be. Time to start a new thread!

Well, the bible was written so long ago, maybe God said to the pope:
"Forbid condoms, the Christians are going to be outnumbered by the evil Islamics"

He's gay and is sensitive to the prohibition in Abrahamic faiths marking it as a sin, he should choose to embrace the forgiveness aspects of those faiths instead. If he read the whole text, instead of the part he didn't like, he'd get the complete message instead of obsessing about his sexuality.

Since he's afraid of public opinion, then he should learn now that he' s chosen to live in fear, no one has forced him to but himself. People have right not to like gays just as much as they have the right to exist.

When he looks around and doesn't see an environment willing to accept him, he should crack open a book, look at a map or hit the internet and realize that there are many a place where gays are not only accepted but hold political power and use it to harrass straights or "baby makers" as they like to harrass heterosexuals as.

You know come to think of it, God's anger at Adam and Eve for donning clothing could be construed as an anti-pants Bible passage..

Sweet, now all we have to do is make sure the pope believes it and then every good christian will be nude

I just want to throw in one more bible quote:

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

...You sound like a prisoner in the showers...
:eek:

You know what one sounds like?
...Uh... only from the movies. Yeah, that's it. The movies.

I just want to throw in one more bible quote:

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Oh sure, ban the losers from church too! :p

...Uh... only from the movies. Yeah, that's it. The movies.

Like Oz?

I just want to throw in one more bible quote:

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

In dutch it is stated that whoever is handicapped in whichever way cannot give food to God, nor can they become priests, then there are some examples like crushed balls, dwarves,...

Oh sure, ban the losers from church too! :p
God hates a nerd.

Like Oz?
I thought that was a show... I was thinking Shawshank Redemption or something like that.
American History X would be another one.

God hates a nerd.

Especially those Spock-worshippers.

A variant interpretation is that Onan's sin was his refusal to fulfill his duty, not the mere fact that he "spilled his seed."
thats the interpretation I lean towards. Makes a bit more sense to me. I could understand being pissed about someone not doing what you told them to do, but I couldn't understand being pissed about "spilling your seed"

I thought that was a show... I was thinking Shawshank Redemption or something like that.
American History X would be another one.

Eh, I don't know if it's a show or not. I've never seen either of those movies though. The only prison movies I've seen are The Longest Yard and Stir-Crazy.

thats the interpretation I lean towards. Makes a bit more sense to me. I could understand being pissed about someone not doing what you told them to do, but I couldn't understand being pissed about "spilling your seed"

I'd agree too. It seems to fit into the context of the passage a bit more.

Sweet, now all we have to do is make sure the pope believes it and then every good christian will be nude
Us heathens have been doing that for years:cool:

Eh, I don't know if it's a show or not. I've never seen either of those movies though. The only prison movies I've seen are The Longest Yard and Stir-Crazy.
Well, I've heard that The Longest Yard and Stir-Crazy depict prison life very accurately.

being gay isnt a sin

having a crush on other boys isnt a sin. kissing other boys isnt a sin.

sex is inappropriate at 13. when he is old enough to decide on his own if gay sex is a sin, he will probably be old enough to have whatever kind of sex seems right to him at that time.

I know plenty of people who had sex at 13 or thereabouts... if he's 13 and wants to have sex then it would probably be better to do it with someone his own age, but a blanket statement like "13 is too young for sex" is condescending and paternalistic. I don't think that adults-- biased by their own experiences-- are necessarily qualified to tell younger people when they're ready for sex; it is encumbant on us, though, not to sexually interfere with minors.

Well, I've heard that The Longest Yard and Stir-Crazy depict prison life very accurately.

Sweet, cause Stir-Crazy was one of the funniest movies I've ever seen.

Us heathens have been doing that for years:cool:

And you failed, well it's time that I start with it too.

Khaban']And you failed, well it's time that I start with it too.
I didn't fail. In fact, I have no pants on right now!

<.<
>.>


TMI?

He's 13, is he sure he's gay?

He should talk to someone older, maybe the school psychologist or someone like that. Someone impartial who can guide him to make his own choice.

Okay, that post seems pretty suggestive. At 13 he can't be sure that he's gay, and should talk to an adult to 'help him make his own choice?' First up, being gay is no more a choice than being straight, and no amount of talking (to adults or to anyone else) is going to lead him to 'choose' one orientation or another. Someone might compel him to choose to lie or to repress it if he is gay-- and he could subsequently end up confused and miserable and maybe suicidal-- but you don't choose your deep-seated physical and emotional attractions. That said, why should a kid who thinks he's gay seek out counselling to help him 'make the right choice?' For one, that assumes (besides that there *is* a choice) that there is a 'right choice,' and to propose that "maybe gay" = counselling pretty clearly points the 'wrong choice' finger at being gay. Why don't we send 13 yr olds who think they might be straight to talk to someone, make sure they aren't just conforming to peer pressure?

To the OP-- tell your friend: he can doubt what other people tell him, he can doubt religious teachings and theologies, he can doubt adult counsellors and therapists, because they are all external; but his feelings are innate and inherent to him, beyond anyone else's purview to judge. Unless someone's got a gun to his head or they've spent his entire life indoctrinating him (both of which, classically, are techniques more apt to be used by straight societal institutions and their enforcers than by gay people) then his feelings that come from inside him can *only* be natural to his being, and valid. He doesn't need counselling, he needs to trust and respect himself.

I didn't fail. In fact, I have no pants on right now!

<.<
>.>


TMI?

yeah, but I don't see much nude christians. But hey, don't give up, United we stand!

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..
Being gay is not a sin. Acting on it is.

This does not legitimise picking on gay people, attacking them, or discriminating against them.

IMO those Christians who characterise homosexuality as the worst sin that will bring down society are very wrong. It is no worse than most other sins. Remember, we're all sinners, and those who look down on gays, and judge them, ought to be reminded that they themselves will be judged.

If your friend is Christian and genuinely loves God, that is what is important, and I am confident that he will be forgiven as most other people are.

yeah, but I don't see much nude christians. But hey, don't give up, United we stand!
well, the heathens are nude. And loving it, by the way.

*ahem*

what was I saying?

well, the heathens are nude. And loving it, by the way.

*ahem*

what was I saying?

Who are the heathens? Is it a family?

Seriously. When it comes to gays and Christianity, as well as the nature of Christianity in general, I'm wierd. Oddly, I don't even consider myself a Christian, or if I am, I don't know about it. All I know is right now I'm looking at porn while talking about God.

(1) You have to consider the time frame most of the OT (where they talk about gayness in a brief verse pertaining to Sodomon and Gamorah) was written. At the time, the Greeks was a dominate power in the region and oppressing the Hebrews. Now, as most Christians believe, the Bible might have been inspired by God, but it was written by man. As any social pyschologist or sociologist will tell you, man is influence by his enviroment or surrounding. The Greeks, being the 'bad guys' in the Hebrew's eyes, undoubtly influenced some of the OT's teaching, including views on homosexuality. I'm pretty sure, had the Greeks have stated in Greece or had some of the horrible aspects removed [like kid sex], the views on homosexuality and sexuality in general might be a little different, but who knows?

(2) This theory is going into the surreal and probably won't be taken seriously.

Now, imagine that God is our father. It's not a hard concept to invision, as the imagery is popular in Christianity. But now, imagine us as children. Not us as being children, but as the stages of humankind being child like. We're infants and toddlers in the guard of Eden, living in utter innocence. When we take the apple and eat it, we step into the world of choices and responciblity in a simular way a toddler steps into childhood and has to make some minor decisions about life. God, being a good parent, doesn't let us go willy nilly and like any good parent. Like in most of the OT, God is direct. He punishes us when we are bad and he rewards us when we are good. Of course, we as mankind grows older and like a good parent, he slowly backs away from us and allows us to make decisions and let us reap whatever good or bad may come of it, leaving us only with a set of rule and guidelines. Now, I think we're somewhere between mid teenages years to early adulthood, when we first start to realize that not every thing our father believes in his right, though a lot of it was soild advice. Some of the 'teenage' mankind wants to take father's rules to the heart while others want to outright reject all of them, though the answer is somewhere in the middle.

This is perhaps the weird part of all, as it goes beyond usual, I've-actually-had-a-good-night's-sleep thinking, but maybe mankind is supposed to equal or surpass God in the same way our own parents want us to be equal or better than they our... and give birth to our own brilliant creations.
-----------

Well, that's enough of two. Too heady and Too pseudo-intellectually. I'm off to eat a Hot Pocket. Ciao!

:rolleyes:

Contrary to popular belief, we don't all have horrible, horrible, empty, lonely, tragicomic lives that we end by slitting our wrists. Most of us don't mind being gay at all. Some of us even love it. Imagine that.

Ugh, people! There are others a lot more deserving of your patronising pity.

I can't imagine being anything but-- I wouldn't want to. Being gay has taught me to value justice and fairness and equality, far more than anyone who has never experienced injustice, unfairness and inequality as everyday aspects of society; it's taught me to stand up and speak out when I hear about people being oppressed, far more than those who've never had reason to worry that they themselves might be oppressed; it's taught me to embrace other people outside my blood-family, to create a family of my choice and to love them and help take care of them, far more than anyone who's spent their life taking for granted that their family will accept them and they'll always have a home to come back to. Being different is a gift-- even thought sometimes an unwanted one-- that lets you see how 'sameness' lends itself to stagnation and in-fighting. Being an outsider is a blessing, because it challenges you to grow and better yourself and in being *made* to stand out, one is afforded an extraordinary opportunity to grow beyond the commonplace limits of mediocrity.

I'm not Christian and I'm not gay. But I think that it's only the Christian interpretation of God that hates gays. If there is a deity I think he/she either hates us all or doesn't hate any of us.
God doesn't hate anyone.

In any case, he's too young to have to sweat this stuff, and it's miserable that we have a culture where this has to be an issue for a kid to deal with.
I agree completely.

Still, why do so many people have the understanding that Christians hate gays if it isn't so?
There are some Christians of weak will who forget that hatred is antithetical to the faith, and forget that judging other people is not their place. Unfortunately these Christians tend to be pretty loud.

Nope, it is also against the Muslim belief as well.
Yes, as well as Judaism, Rastafari, and probably dozens of others. Unfortunately they all have followers who foolishly interpret "is a sin" as "kill 'em all".

I have a Christian friend (and I too am Christian), and he is very homophobic. He continually states that god hates gays and their all going to hell.
I think that even if people like this were atheists, they would hate gays. Religion is just used by them as a cover to excuse their bigotry.

I'm still figuring out the whole gay christian thing
I mean come on a real christian can't be gay
So you think anyone that sins can't be a real Christian?

If that is true, then the last Christian died on the cross.

Who are the heathens? Is it a family?
Coming this fall on FOX!!! It's.... THE HEATHENS!!! *Insert sitcom music and oneliners*

Who are the heathens? Is it a family?
all us godless folk.

Gay =/= Sin
Sin = Opposite/Hypotenuse.

Therefore Gay =/= Opposite/Hypotenuse? :confused:

Gay =/= Sin
Sin = Opposite/Hypotenuse.

That's Sine. Sin is merely an abbreviation.

Being gay is NOT a sin, and God will not hate him for it. As a Christian-turned-agnostic, I know that God does not hate gays OR their lifestyle. The Bible has been screwed around with millions of times over the last 1600 years or so, and the Vatican is homophobic, at any rate. So no, tell your friend that God will love him anyways, and that he won't go to hell for being gay.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Personally, the bible has been translated way too many times to be accurate. Not to mention all the times it's been tailored to monarchs for waging war and giving kings the right to persecute other people.

All these, "Good Christians" from Mississippi and Alabama need to go die in a terrible chemical fire. I'm so sick of, "I'M A CHRISTIAN! I HAVE A BIBLE! FUCK GAYS!!" They're about as good of Christians as they are good, tollerant people.

On another note, what does the bible say about being a pancake? ;)

Christian = sinner
Gay =/= sin

Then:
Gay =/= Christian

That's Sine. Sin is merely an abbreviation.
Heh, that one totally went over your head there. It's a math joke!:p

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Personally, the bible has been translated way too many times to be accurate. Not to mention all the times it's been tailored to monarchs for waging war and giving kings the right to persecute other people.

All these, "Good Christians" from Mississippi and Alabama need to go die in a terrible chemical fire. I'm so sick of, "I'M A CHRISTIAN! I HAVE A BIBLE! FUCK GAYS!!" They're about as good of Christians as they are good, tollerant people.

On another note, what does the bible say about being a pancake? ;)

I think it says that you should be eaten by whoever wants it.
I want to to eat you, so come over here.

Heh, that one totally went over your head there. It's a math joke!:p
I am well-versed in mathematics. "Sin" is an abbreviation, as is "cos".

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Personally, the bible has been translated way too many times to be accurate. Not to mention all the times it's been tailored to monarchs for waging war and giving kings the right to persecute other people.

All these, "Good Christians" from Mississippi and Alabama need to go die in a terrible chemical fire. I'm so sick of, "I'M A CHRISTIAN! I HAVE A BIBLE! FUCK GAYS!!" They're about as good of Christians as they are good, tollerant people.

On another note, what does the bible say about being a pancake? ;)
Pancakes covered with good old fashioned Maple syrup are God-approved. A pancake covered with a fruity syrup (strawberry, blueberry) is a pancake taking part in a mortal sin.

Even in christianity, being gay is not a sin. And it is debatable weather christianity even states that acting on your homosexuality is a sin either.

But any way, being gay is definately not a sin.



Read the bible, it does say it's a sin in the old testament. But I am not a christian and proudly so! I am a Lesbian and had the attitude I don't care what you think about it, I am what I am so..:upyours:


Seriously, thats what I told my mother.:)

Read the bible, it does say it's a sin in the old testament. But I am not a christian and proudly so! I am a Lesbian and had the attitude I don't care what you think about it, I am what I am so..:upyours:


Seriously, thats what I told my mother.:)

Why do so many people think lesbians are hot? Well, I do, too, but why?

Why do so many people think lesbians are hot? Well, I do, too, but why?



Its because of what we do to each other....Men like seeing 2 chicks make out.

On another note, what does the bible say about being a pancake? ;)

Oh, very funny. Very witty, Stalinberg.

Pancakes weren't even around in the time of the Bible... were they...?





(for those of you who don't know... this is also Darknovae...)

Oh, very funny. Very witty, Stalinberg.

Pancakes weren't even around in the time of the Bible... were they...?

Yes, pancakes were around at the time of the bible. Hungry Jack and other buttermilk pancakes were not.

Its because of what we do to each other....Men like seeing 2 chicks make out.

Or eat out. :D

Yes, pancakes were around at the time of the bible. Hungry Jack and other buttermilk pancakes were not.

:eek: THE VATICAN LEFT MY ANCIENT PANCAKELY HERITAGE OUT OF THE BIBLE!?!?!? :eek:

Those... those... UGH! I HATE THEM! Now I know little of my pancakely heritage! :(

No being gay isn't a sin. But it's a hard thing to deal with because doing homosexual acts is wrong. Pretty much Im saying that your friend has to either suddenly start liking girls or accept that hes got to be celebate the rest of his life. Its a difficult situation.

No being gay isn't a sin. But it's a hard thing to deal with because doing homosexual acts is wrong. Pretty much Im saying that your friend has to either suddenly start liking girls or accept that hes got to be celebate the rest of his life. Its a difficult situation.
Lol thats a good one ... what kind of pathetic excuse of a god would give just some of his creations the urge to love someone of his own sex yet forbade the intamacy of one of the biggest way to show that love.

That sort thing is not the work of anyone diserving respect

Lol thats a good one ... what kind of pathetic excuse of a god would give just some of his creations the urge to love someone of his own sex yet forbade the intamacy of one of the biggest way to show that love.

That sort thing is not the work of anyone diserving respect

The urge? The urge to do what? The urge that some people have to hurt others, the urge that some people have to hurt themselves, the urge that some people have to be pissed on and abused, the urge that some people have to piss on others and abuse them, the urge to cheat on ones spouse, the urge to have sex with everyone that will say 'yes' even if you don't know their names...

There are lots of sexual urges, everyone has them, it has nothing to do with heterosexual or homosexual, the rule is that we are to control ourselves, to overcome our 'urges' and do what's right instead of what is wrong (wrong being generally what our 'urges' want).

Everyone has to overcome their urges, not just the homosexual. AS to what we ARE to do with our urges, is to direct them the way they are intended to be used for...

Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder...(Mt. 19).

That verse is NOT just about anti-homosexual, but also pro-monogamy, God didn't say not to have urges, he said to overcome them and direct them, to be more than the animals that can do nothing other than what their urges tell them to do... To have your spouse and to be true to them, and yourself.

The urge? The urge to do what? The urge that some people have to hurt others, the urge that some people have to hurt themselves, the urge that some people have to be pissed on and abused, the urge that some people have to piss on others and abuse them, the urge to cheat on ones spouse, the urge to have sex with everyone that will say 'yes' even if you don't know their names...

There are lots of sexual urges, everyone has them, it has nothing to do with heterosexual or homosexual, the rule is that we are to control ourselves, to overcome our 'urges' and do what's right instead of what is wrong (wrong being generally what our 'urges' want).

Everyone has to overcome their urges, not just the homosexual. AS to what we ARE to do with our urges, is to direct them the way they are intended to be used for...

Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder...(Mt. 19).

That verse is NOT just about anti-homosexual, but also pro-monogamy, God didn't say not to have urges, he said to overcome them and direct them, to be more than the animals that can do nothing other than what their urges tell them to do... To have your spouse and to be true to them, and yourself.I have over come my pure urges and turned my sex with my male partner into something beatuifull

A full expression for my love for him

There was no better moment in my entire life ... no more rich or pure moment as that expression of pure love...

No true benevolent creator would deny his creations that moment

The urge? The urge to do what? The urge that some people have to hurt others, the urge that some people have to hurt themselves, the urge that some people have to be pissed on and abused, the urge that some people have to piss on others and abuse them, the urge to cheat on ones spouse, the urge to have sex with everyone that will say 'yes' even if you don't know their names...

There are lots of sexual urges, everyone has them, it has nothing to do with heterosexual or homosexual, the rule is that we are to control ourselves, to overcome our 'urges' and do what's right instead of what is wrong (wrong being generally what our 'urges' want).

Everyone has to overcome their urges, not just the homosexual. AS to what we ARE to do with our urges, is to direct them the way they are intended to be used for...

Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder...(Mt. 19).

That verse is NOT just about anti-homosexual, but also pro-monogamy, God didn't say not to have urges, he said to overcome them and direct them, to be more than the animals that can do nothing other than what their urges tell them to do... To have your spouse and to be true to them, and yourself.

*sings Amen*

I have over come my pure urges and turned my sex with my male partner into something beatuifull

A full expression for my love for him

There was no better moment in my entire life ... no more rich or pure moment as that expression of pure love...

No true benevolent creator would deny his creations that moment

It is not up to me to judge. But I will remind you of this, to summarize the themes from the message:

Give up worldly sources of satisfaction; find joy, happiness, and satisfaction in God alone. Give up worldly sources of greatness and success; seek instead God's commendation, His, "Well done!"

To devote oneself to the pleasures here on earth, especially the 'urge' desires that are not beneficial, is to love the world more than the Father. Clearly outside the realm of acceptable behavior.

It is not up to me to judge. But I will remind you of this, to summarize the themes from the message:

Give up worldly sources of satisfaction; find joy, happiness, and satisfaction in God alone. Give up worldly sources of greatness and success; seek instead God's commendation, His, "Well done!"

To devote oneself to the pleasures here on earth, especially the 'urge' desires that are not beneficial, is to love the world more than the Father. Clearly outside the realm of acceptable behavior.
Nope I would rather go with what I know is pure ... I tried the religon thing ... it fucked me over litteraly

This has made me happier then any faith ever has by far and for longer ... this is here ... this is real. Not some myth

It is not up to me to judge. But I will remind you of this, to summarize the themes from the message:

Give up worldly sources of satisfaction; find joy, happiness, and satisfaction in God alone. Give up worldly sources of greatness and success; seek instead God's commendation, His, "Well done!"

To devote oneself to the pleasures here on earth, especially the 'urge' desires that are not beneficial, is to love the world more than the Father. Clearly outside the realm of acceptable behavior.

Aw, thanks-- it's great that you brought that up so I didn't have to risk mis-quoting. Right then. Give up worldly satisfaction, put the flesh second, ideally devote yourself 100% to God, and all that. So yeah, for those who believe in the bible (and the legitimacy of their dictating values to non-Christians in a pluralistic, non-theocratic society, which is a whole other issue in itself) the IDEAL that J.C. suggested was to be devoted entirely to God. From which hetero sex and marriage would be a distraction. This suggests-- again, for those who want to live according to Christian ideologies-- that in the heirarchy of things, undistracted worship of God is preferable to straight sex and marriage. Of course, he took it as a given that not *every* last person had it in them to forego the flesh and commit solely to God; there was room for those who were disinclined to aesetic worship. Why, then, is it such a stretch to propose that there is also room for those who are disinclined to engage in straight sex? All the heteros in their less-than-ideal position seem poorly placed to condemn others for not meeting the divine standard.

I read a really interesting book-- sorry I can't recall the title at the moment, I gave it to my gay pentecost boyfriend of 3 monogamous years-- that suggested that straight sex (or heterosexuality) was a viable alternative for those who could not dedicate themselves exclusively to God (or divine asexuality), and that homosexuality was a viable alternative for those who didn't feel attraction to someone of the opposite sex. That, in fact, the advice that 'a man should be with a woman' was only intended for straight people, and that Jesus didn't mention gay people because it didn't occur to them 2000 years ago that there was such a thing *as* 'gay people.'

The Children Are Free... I believe that's the name of the book, now that I had a minute to think about it. Should check it out, it takes a pretty good, analytical look at those clobber passages that homophobes love to hide behind or take out of context as a defense for their un-Christian attitudes.

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..

It is written in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin (eg, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11); if your friend really loves God then it is likely that he is not gay, but Satan is trying to trick him into thinking so; tell him to speak to his pastor/minister.

Doesnt have a minister!

Ah didn't see that; surely there is a church nearby...

It is written in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin (eg, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11)...

Umm, no. It isn't. At least not originally, in the quotes you mentioned.

It is written in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin (eg, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11); if your friend really loves God then it is likely that he is not gay, but Satan is trying to trick him into thinking so; tell him to speak to his pastor/minister.

Only if you werent born gay......Or if you pretend to be a wife if you were married. Paul also said gay is wrong if you are straight and do it. Or if you are straight and you give that up to be gay and you KNOW what you are doing. You cant fix something your born with...

Even in christianity, being gay is not a sin. And it is debatable weather christianity even states that acting on your homosexuality is a sin either.

But any way, being gay is definately not a sin.

actually.. its pretty clear acting onyour homoseoxuality is a sin, since it can only be considered as fornication at its very least.. but then all sexual activity outside of marriage is a sin. Take it how you will

Who cares? If the answer to the question: "Does God hate you?" has no measurable consequences, what does it matter?

Biblically speaking, there is a strict prohibition against male homosexual behaviour in the old testament. Leviticus, I think. Though there are some fairly clear examples of gay couples in the bible, as well. David & Jonathan. Ruth & Naomi.

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..


is this friend really you? ;)

If your 'friend' finds someone who says being gay is a sin, whill he believe it? If he believes it will he stop being a Christian or try to stop being gay?

I suggest that your friend follow his heart and not listen to what anyone else has to say. only you, I mean yoru friend, can decide if what he feels is wrong or not.

At thirteen I usggest your friend continue with self-love and avoid idiots who talk crap about his femininity. He should also hang out with girls as they are much more accepting of homosexuality.

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..
Hmm I pity him. Not because i am gay but because that would SUCK. On the other side being gay is morally and religiosly wrong, and that is clearly outlined in the bible.
*Ducks into foxhole
*Prepares for vicious assault
*Calls for allies

all us godless folk.

Y'know, godless is realy a misnomer, I have MORE gods that the average Christian . . .

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..
No, it's not a sin.
No, it's not wrong.
No, it's not filthy.

Although some people would have him believe so, you must tell him those people are simply trying to use God and Religion as an excuse to further push their prejudices and bigotry upon others.

Hmm I pity him. Not because i am gay but because that would SUCK. On the other side being gay is morally and religiosly wrong, and that is clearly outlined in the bible.
*Ducks into foxhole
*Prepares for vicious assault
*Calls for allies
No it's not. There is nothing morally wrong about being gay.

There is also nothing religiously wrong about being gay. Unless you're a member of those fundamentalistic, bigoted, judgemental churches and organisations who choose to threathen others of an eternity of torment in hell in a poorly-disguised attempts to control their sexuality because of ulterior motives.

It is not up to me to judge. <snips pootwaddle judging>


Then maybe you should stop doing it.

No, it's not a sin.
No, it's not wrong.
No, it's not filthy.

Although some people would have him believe so, you must tell him those people are simply trying to use God and Religion as an excuse to further push their prejudices and bigotry upon others.

Quoted and Bolded for the truth. Despite what some bigots would have you believe, there's nothing wrong with being gay.

No it's not. There is nothing morally wrong about being gay.

There is also nothing religiously wrong about being gay. Unless you're a member of those fundamentalistic, bigoted, judgemental churches and organisations who choose to threathen others of an eternity of torment in hell in a poorly-disguised attempts to control their sexuality because of ulterior motives.

God blesses the man and woman and commands them to "be fertile and multiply" Genesis 1:28
A man "leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body" Genesis 2:24

God blesses the man and woman and commands them to "be fertile and multiply" Genesis 1:28
A man "leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body" Genesis 2:24

Isn't there something in your ancient fiction book about not judging people?

God blesses the man and woman and commands them to "be fertile and multiply" Genesis 1:28
A man "leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body" Genesis 2:24

which says nothing about homosexuality beign a sin

which says nothing about homosexuality beign a sin

I did wonder about that...

Homosexuality itself is not a sin. Gay sex however, according to the book of Leviticus (Leviticus 18?) is a sin.

Either way, the Bible says God loves all of us, and considering that all of us sin all the time, there's no reason to be ashamed to be gay.

:fluffle:

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..

Let us all be honest with ourselves- it is a sin, and it's not debatable.

However, Christianity is the religion for sinners- it provides them a way to wash themselves clean and change.

While it may be a sin, and a serious one at that, there is hope to change in Christ. It is long and difficult, but so long as he's trying the best he can to overcome it- God will recompense for the rest.

Though homosexuality is a sin and is shameful before God, it doesn't imply that he loves anyone any less. I hate people who come out with "God Hates Gays" and all that crap. That's simply not true. And futhermore, his struggles in this department are no one else's concern except very close friends, parents, his pastor, and God. Others should refrain from casting stones and condemning to Hell.

God is Judge, not man. "For Judgment is mine, saith the Lord". Everyone else has their own problems and should remember the Master's words "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

Your first and foremost duty as his friend is to be his friend and let him know of God's love for him- him, not as one in millions, but as him. God know everyone deeply and intimately- for each one is His child. He knows us better than we know ourselves.

This should not be a source of contention. Fighting does not help anyone.

Prov. 18: 6
"A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes."

<snipping the sillyness>

Prov. 18: 6
"A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes."

omg that quote got me turned on

omg that quote got me turned on
Come here... :fluffle:

Come here... :fluffle:


rawr :fluffle:

and your location is "on the moon" which is funny because many of my internet handles I am the m00n plus my nation name means moon worship hehe

God blesses the man and woman and commands them to "be fertile and multiply" Genesis 1:28
A man "leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body" Genesis 2:24
Yeah. Looks like God didn't care about overpopulation, now, didn't he?

So, tell me, how many dozens of children do you intend to force your wife to churn out, dear Lexington?

rawr :fluffle:

and your location is "on the moon" which is funny because many of my internet handles I am the m00n plus my nation name means moon worship hehe

Come over to my "hotel room" later and we can finish up there... ;) :fluffle:

54 o'clock. Third crater from the top.

Yeah. Looks like God didn't care about overpopulation, now, didn't he?

So, tell me, how many dozens of children do you intend to force your wife to churn out, dear Lexington?

We're not discussing overpopulation here. If you want to discuss that, go somewhere else- otherwise- stick to the topic at hand.

Come over to my "hotel room" later and we can finish up there... ;) :fluffle:

54 o'clock. Third crater from the top.

but wont the gay sex make you more of a sinner or do you just have to ask for forgiveness?

Homosexuality itself is not a sin. Gay sex however, according to the book of Leviticus (Leviticus 18?) is a sin.

Either way, the Bible says God loves all of us, and considering that all of us sin all the time, there's no reason to be ashamed to be gay.

:fluffle:
Plus, let's not forget homosexuality being a sin is in the same chapter as:

-Eating seafood
-Wearing clothes of more than one fabric
-Women attending churches while in their period for

And so on.

Let's not forget that homosexuality is mentionned about 5 times only in the Bible, and not a word about/against it is spoken by Jesus. By comparison, adultery is mentionned 200+ times, many of which are admonitions by the Son of God(tm) himself. Seems to me some fundies are trying to justify their own bigotry by making homosexuality a "pet sin".

but wont the gay sex make you more of a sinner or do you just have to ask for forgiveness?

I'll temporarily convert to atheism. :p

I'll temporarily convert to atheism. :p

or start a new sect Gay Christian Protestants

Plus, let's not forget homosexuality being a sin is in the same chapter as:

-Eating seafood
-Wearing clothes of more than one fabric
-Women attending churches while in their period for

And so on.

Let's not forget that homosexuality is mentionned about 5 times only in the Bible, and not a word about/against it is spoken by Jesus. By comparison, adultery is mentionned 200+ times, many of which are admonitions by the Son of God(tm) himself. Seems to me some fundies are trying to justify their own bigotry by making homosexuality a "pet sin".

It's expressly forbidden by God, mostly his servants on earth have articulated that. So unless you don't accept God's servants (a grave error that one only need follow the Old Testament to figure out) it is a sin.

We're not discussing overpopulation here. If you want to discuss that, go somewhere else- otherwise- stick to the topic at hand.
Dude, the guy I quoted said God's will was (according to him, at least) to "multiply" while implying homosexuality would be a sin or displease God because gays and lesbians don't "multiply".

Because we all know that a)All gays are sterile and b)All God-fearing christians have dozens of offsprings.

Stop being such an ass; my post was related to the topic at hand. I was showing clearly that his quote was not a sound base to call homosexuality a sin.

or start a new sect Gay Christian Protestants

Or become a Catholic Priest...:p , or join the Episcopal Church. :p

(that was mean of me).

It's expressly forbidden by God, mostly his servants on earth have articulated that. So unless you don't accept God's servants (a grave error that one only need follow the Old Testament to figure out) it is a sin.
Right. Because everyone who claims to be God's servants obviously always are genuine God's servant. Nobody ever claimed to be a servant of God while they really weren't, now did they?

Edit: And nobody claiming to be doing God's will ever did so to further his own interests, either. I'm sure 2000+ years of organized Church have never seen a man making political capital while claiming it to be God's will.

I have a friend who is 13...Im 13 too. My friend is gay but no one knows. He is picked on for acting gay and liking gay things. He always says no thats not true but he only says that for no one will find out. Not even his family or closest friends know because he is afraid to tell them. He likes guys,dreams about them and so on. But he wants to know if being gay is a sin. He is Christain and loves god but he doesnt know if it is shamefull in gods eyes. He cant live in this constant fear that he is in now. He is afraid to come out to anyone and doesnt even know if being gay is wrong..
If he doesn't have the balls to quit his religion in these circumstances, he deserves all consequences.

Or become a Catholic Priest...:p , or join the Episcopal Church. :p

(that was mean of me).


hah - thats hot - I'll bring the priest and choir boy outfits and we can roll play how you fondle me in the rectory.

hah - thats hot - I'll bring the priest and choir boy outfits and we can roll play how you fondle me in the rectory.
O_o

This sounds so wrong...


But so fun!

I don't think there is really a concrete answer to the question. Different people have different interpertations of who God is and what he wants from people. Some fundies seem to think that God loves only a select few "good" people, while other religious types believe that God loves everyone, and is generally benevolent and merciful. I recommend encouraging your friend to build his own relationship with God based on what he believes is right, not what others believe is right. If God is half as great as people make him out to be, he should understand.

Dude, the guy I quoted said God's will was (according to him, at least) to "multiply" while implying homosexuality would be a sin or displease God because gays and lesbians don't "multiply".

Because we all know that a)All gays are sterile and b)All God-fearing christians have dozens of offsprings.

Stop being such an ass; my post was related to the topic at hand. I was showing clearly that his quote was not a sound base to call homosexuality a sin.

*sigh* The first commandment God gave man was to multiply and replenish the earth. That is fact (granted we're talking theology). Homosexual relations don't fulfill that commandment. As to whether or not that's the reason it's a sin, only God knows, and really, if you look over the scriptures, He hasn't given that as a reason. I don't know what goes on in His mind beyond what He's already said.

He has, though, stated the following:

1. Lev. 18: 22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

2. Lev. 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:"

3. Rom. 1: 27 "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

4. 1 Cor. 6: 9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"

5. 1 Tim. 1:9-10 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, ...For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind"

So, really, God hasn't given any reason why, beyond that He says it is. "Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me" saith the Lord.

hah - thats hot - I'll bring the priest and choir boy outfits and we can roll play how you fondle me in the rectory.

You're such a naughty boy... :p

O_o

This sounds so wrong...


But so fun!

Would you like to join us? :D

hah - thats hot - I'll bring the priest and choir boy outfits and we can roll play how you fondle me in the rectory.
*backs out of thread slowly* doing that for real once in a lifetime is enough

*backs out of thread slowly* doing that for real once in a lifetime is enough

:(

sorry

I'd never think that the actual molestation of children by priests is hot. I'd want to bust the head of an actual priest doing such things to a kid, desspite my pacifistic tendencies.

I actually fantasize more about being pulled over by a motorcycle cop and frisked and...

*sigh* The first commandment God gave man was to multiply and replenish the earth. That is fact (granted we're talking theology). Homosexual relations don't fulfill that commandment. As to whether or not that's the reason it's a sin, only God knows, and really, if you look over the scriptures, He hasn't given that as a reason. I don't know what goes on in His mind beyond what He's already said.

He has, though, stated the following:

1. Lev. 18: 22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

2. Lev. 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:"

3. Rom. 1: 27 "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

4. 1 Cor. 6: 9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"

5. 1 Tim. 1:9-10 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, ...For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind"

So, really, God hasn't given any reason why, beyond that He says it is. "Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me" saith the Lord.
At the risk of repeating myself:

Do you believe eating seafood is just as much of a sin as homosexuality? Do you personally eat seafood?

Is your shirt made of a cotton/polyester blend? If so, you're sinning right now, at least according to Leviticus.

Feel free to consider the Bible as a monolithic book depicting the thruth of God, but the fact of the matter is that the Bible as we know it is an assembly of books written by men, and that that assembly has been chosen by men as well. I prefer to trust in what's inside the Gospels, and take the son of God's words at literal value. Which is to love my neighbour, and not judge him.

Would you like to join us? :D
Depends. I'd have to make up my mind whether I wanted to be the priest or choir boy.

Decisions, decisions. :p

*backs out of thread slowly* doing that for real once in a lifetime is enough

I'm so sorry. That really happened to you?

That really breaks my heart when I hear of these things happening to others. I can only imagine the sorrow and hell you've felt (may still feel). :(

Nothing like that should ever happen to any child.

:(

sorry

I'd never think that the actual molestation of children by priests is hot. I'd want to bust the head of an actual priest doing such things to a kid, desspite my pacifistic tendencies.

I actually fantasize more about being pulled over by a motorcycle cop and frisked and...
You, my friend, are in dire need of a fluffle. :fluffle:


There's something to be said about sweet, tender lovemaking with your lover by the fireplace, yanno.

At the risk of repeating myself:

Do you believe eating seafood is just as much of a sin as homosexuality? Do you personally eat seafood?

Is your shirt made of a cotton/polyester blend? If so, you're sinning right now, at least according to Leviticus.

Feel free to consider the Bible as a monolithic book depicting the thruth of God, but the fact of the matter is that the Bible as we know it is an assembly of books written by men, and that that assembly has been chosen by men as well. I prefer to trust in what's inside the Gospels, and take the son of God's words at literal value. Which is to love my neighbour, and not judge him.

You realize the Gospels were written by men as well, and we're entered into the Bible by men too.

By your rationalization, none of the Bible is true, and therefore, well, nothing is true. The Bible is the record of God's dealings with man. And seeing as the virtual whole of Christianity lacks the actual presence of diety amongst you and that you lack a prophet to reveal the mind and will of the Lord, I'd say you're stuck in darkness and that you find yourself with no truth at all.

And let us remember that Homosexuality still was banned come the end of the New Testament, while sea food bans were lifted. Certain parts of the Mosaic Law were done away with. Some remained.

Alright, Niaman, Sumamba and me are officially idiots.

Sorry UpwardThrust, it sort of never occurred to me someone on these forums might have been into that sort of tragedy. We were just poking some fun and didn't realize how hurtful/offensive that might be. I hope there'll be no hard feelings because of it.

You, my friend, are in dire need of a fluffle. :fluffle:


There's something to be said about sweet, tender lovemaking with your lover by the fireplace, yanno.


I dont have a fireplace but I get plenty tender loving as well as rough sweaty hair pulling asphyx... errr...

lets just get to :fluffle:ing

I believe it is Leviticus 6 in the bible that says that the practice of sex with someone of the same gender is not moral. This is from the old testament in the christian bible, which is also part of the tora that is read in both the jewish and muslim religions. This being said, I don't believe God would hate the person who does this act, but rather the act itself.

You realize the Gospels were written by men as well, and we're entered into the Bible by men too.

By your rationalization, none of the Bible is true, and therefore, well, nothing is true. The Bible is the record of God's dealings with man. And seeing as the virtual whole of Christianity lacks the actual presence of diety amongst you and that you lack a prophet to reveal the mind and will of the Lord, I'd say you're stuck in darkness and that you find yourself with no truth at all.
Either that, or God intended for us to use our free will and separate the good grain from the bad. He did grant us critical thinking for a reason. Personally, that's my approach to faith. I have a solid enough grasp over the concepts of white, black and grey to figure out what's what.

I believe in a God of love, not a God of judgement and punishment.

I believe it is Leviticus 6 in the bible that says that the practice of sex with someone of the same gender is not moral. This is from the old testament in the christian bible, which is also part of the tora that is read in both the jewish and muslim religions. This being said, I don't believe God would hate the person who does this act, but rather the act itself.

Amen.

I'm so sorry. That really happened to you?

That really breaks my heart when I hear of these things happening to others. I can only imagine the sorrow and hell you've felt (may still feel). :(

Nothing like that should ever happen to any child.
Yes it did … for two years … I am not going to go into it because I am sure I will get drunk and pissed and be on the forums sometime again and bring it up in a real argument rather then your two harmless fun.

But 2 years form 4th to 6th grade in the 90’s from a man that the church knew was a child molester sense the 70’s

Anyways no worries I can still laugh at jokes … hell I love Stephan Lynch’s “Priest”

:(

sorry

I'd never think that the actual molestation of children by priests is hot. I'd want to bust the head of an actual priest doing such things to a kid, desspite my pacifistic tendencies.

I actually fantasize more about being pulled over by a motorcycle cop and frisked and...
Naw no worries I understand the joke … as I stated I love humor Stephan Lynch’s priest gets me a chuckle every time (even own his live at el-ray DVD)

Yes it did … for two years … I am not going to go into it because I am sure I will get drunk and pissed and be on the forums sometime again and bring it up in a real argument rather then your two harmless fun.

But 2 years form 4th to 6th grade in the 90’s from a man that the church knew was a child molester sense the 70’s

Anyways no worries I can still laugh at jokes … hell I love Stephan Lynch’s “Priest”

I'm very sorry that happened to you.

We will, uh (how to put it), not resurface the memory for you. God Bless You.

So, What are these jokes you speak of?

I'm very sorry that happened to you.

We will, uh (how to put it), not resurface the memory for you. God Bless You.

So, What are these jokes you speak of?
Sorry the priest ones that brought the original comments

*sigh* The first commandment God gave man was to multiply and replenish the earth. That is fact (granted we're talking theology). Homosexual relations don't fulfill that commandment. As to whether or not that's the reason it's a sin, only God knows, and really, if you look over the scriptures, He hasn't given that as a reason. I don't know what goes on in His mind beyond what He's already said.

*Sigh* indeed. If this were as you say, then all people who choose never to have children (or, indeed, are unable to) are condemned.


He has, though, stated the following:

1. Lev. 18: 22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

2. Lev. 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:"

Leviticus, right. These quotes are (as has been mentioned, which you conveniently ignored) along the the forbidding of one to eat shellfish, wear mixed fabrics, etc. Don't pick and choose.


3. Rom. 1: 27 "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

Nice out-of-context quote here. In this situation, God "gave them up" to their passions, causing them to engage in lustful acts indiscriminately. In short, it was actually God causing them to have sex (as punishment).


4. 1 Cor. 6: 9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"

5. 1 Tim. 1:9-10 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, ...For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind"


Two quotes with the same translational error. Really, these quotes exist in so many different translations it's not even funny. Originally, the term used in these quotes (arsenokoitai) refers to pedophiles, not homosexuals. This is just one of many cases of creative translation to fit the morals of the times.


So, really, God hasn't given any reason why, beyond that He says it is. "Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me" saith the Lord.

Such a pity that so many religious individuals twist His wisdom so much to fit their own ends, eh?

He's 13, is he sure he's gay?

He should talk to someone older, maybe the school psychologist or someone like that. Someone impartial who can guide him to make his own choice.

I was about 8 years old when I realized I dug the girlies.

How old were you?

At any rate....13 is old enough to know what attracts you, even if you arent ready to act on it.

Fuck Leviticus.

ALL of it.

For those who imply that Leviticus states homosexuality is wrong...

Youre just picking and choosing wich parts of that horrid text you wish to adhere to.

Leviticus ALSO states that any woman who isnt married, and gets RAPED, MUST BE SCOURGED.
(Her life, however is spared, becuase she was not free..and still belongs to her father)

So NEVER quote that peice of shit book, when trying to sound morally superior, in order to hide your own homophobia, and intolerance.

First you say this...

Nice out-of-context quote here. In this situation, God "gave them up" to their passions, causing them to engage in lustful acts indiscriminately. In short, it was actually God causing them to have sex (as punishment).
And then you said this...
Two quotes with the same translational error. Really, these quotes exist in so many different translations it's not even funny. Originally, the term used in these quotes (arsenokoitai) refers to pedophiles, not homosexuals. This is just one of many cases of creative translation to fit the morals of the times.

First you said that it's disqualified because God gave them up to it so it's not homosexuality in the normal sense, and then you said about its use elsewhere that it's disqualified because the word now means a child molester...

So are you saying we should not hold child molesters at fault because God gave them up to it? No, of course you are not saying that. What gets you in trouble with your translation is your adamant opposition to the idea that the word might actually mean male-on-male sex (in any form, adult male-young boy, prostitution or adult consenting homosexual relations), but it does mean all of them, even if you don't wish it to.

Against your claims, if you read the message in it’s entirety and do not obfuscate the issue with the spellings of words you don’t like, it is apparent that Paul, like historical Judaism before him, identified homosexuality (a word itself that didn’t exactly exist until recent time) or homoeroticism (the physical act of same on same gender sex) is the same as any other type of sexual immorality. It IS included in this list of ‘wrongs’ and are one of many immoral sexual practices. Christians must treat it in that regard.

However, more importantly, fidelity in marriage and celibacy in singleness, are the real themes of the NT’s message in regards to how every Christian should treat their own sexuality.

Our entire western world, and I’m speaking specifically to the Christian community in it, fail to match up well with the balance of Paul’s text, and I’m talking about heterosexual indifference to heterosexual biblical teachings about how we should treat our sexuality.

We currently have unmarried couples living together, children out of wedlock, epidemic divorce rates, promiscuity by custom and familiarity. We live in a sex-crazed society devoted to accepting all types sexual promiscuity. Homosexuality is a small issue by comparison.

I know the common belief is that 10 per cent of the population has tried a homosexual encounter (even if just once, and perhaps the percentage is true) but the bulk of homosexuals in the population seems to be closer to only 2 per cent of the total, in as much as people that currently and regularly have homosexual partners, or one in the last five years. Hardly worth the attention that it gets with all of the other sexual deviance taking places in “Christian” households and in the Christian community and in the society at large.

We should pursue a holistic “scriptural holiness” encompassing our whole lives and likewise the entire church, and in that pursuit we must be neutral in our application of Scriptural regulations. Moral change through Christ brings all people to him alike, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, prostitutes (male or female) as well as those who practice homosexuality, world lovers etc., these things were wrong then and they are still wrong today, but baptism into Christ is a cleaning conversion and with the power of the Holy Spirit we can live our lives in holy obedience to God and make ourselves, our Christian community, an example for the rest of the world whether they like us or not.

Our preachers and teachers should first attend to the main and common problems and stop focusing on the minuscule issue of non-Christian homosexuality. I’ll suggest an example of how the Christian community is blind in one eye and short sighted in the other as it tries to pull splinters…

With all the uproar of the homosexual bishop in New Hampshire a while back, everyone then focused on the fact that he was in an openly gay relationship and in their consideration (and when I say ‘their’ I mean the Episcopalians that actually voted) they attempted to be ‘forgiving and accepting and modern and loving Christians’ when they decided NOT to hold that against him. They missed the obvious flaw in their philosophy, even after many of them went through a spiritual self-examination involving prayer and bible study, they must have simply missed ( :rolleyes: ) the obviously disqualifying factor, and likely it is because they (they being everyone this time, myself included) have been walking in the shit so long we don’t even smell it anymore…They share his shortcoming, we are NOT servants of others when we should be. The Father of a family is supposed to be like Christ is to the Church, self sacrificing and non-forsaking … Hebrews 13:4-6

Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."
So we say with confidence,
"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?"

Bishop Gene Robinson was married and after having two daughters he divorced his wife and then met his current partner, another man. What is the important part of that sentence in regards to choosing a leader of the church? The important part is not the last part, it is the middle part: He is divorced. He is not an unredeemable sinner because of that but he is not qualified to be a leader of the church either, only a member of the congregation.

1 Timothy 3:1-10
Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?).

And in conclusion, homosexual practices are wrong for Christians and we do not need to be accepting of them in the Church, but we should see that we have bigger concerns to deal with before all this nonsense of an all out war on little things like the problems 2% are having when 50% are still drowning in their own muck and they don’t even know it.

The urge? The urge to do what? The urge that some people have to hurt others, the urge that some people have to hurt themselves, the urge that some people have to be pissed on and abused, the urge that some people have to piss on others and abuse them, the urge to cheat on ones spouse, the urge to have sex with everyone that will say 'yes' even if you don't know their names...

There are lots of sexual urges, everyone has them, it has nothing to do with heterosexual or homosexual, the rule is that we are to control ourselves, to overcome our 'urges' and do what's right instead of what is wrong (wrong being generally what our 'urges' want).

Everyone has to overcome their urges, not just the homosexual. AS to what we ARE to do with our urges, is to direct them the way they are intended to be used for...

Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder...(Mt. 19).

That verse is NOT just about anti-homosexual, but also pro-monogamy, God didn't say not to have urges, he said to overcome them and direct them, to be more than the animals that can do nothing other than what their urges tell them to do... To have your spouse and to be true to them, and yourself.


Sigh...

If we didnt have urges to have sex, there would be no procreation.

You have sex to satisfy the urge. If it didnt feel good nothing would do it. Same way you eat to satisfy hunger, you drink to satisfy thirst, etc. Or are all of these just "temptations that must be controlled" as well?

Sigh...

If we didnt have urges to have sex, there would be no procreation.

You have sex to satisfy the urge. If it didnt feel good nothing would do it. Same way you eat to satisfy hunger, you drink to satisfy thirst, etc. Or are all of these just "temptations that must be controlled" as well?

Yes. Gluttony and drunkenness are sins as well.

Yes. Gluttony and drunkenness are sins as well.

Gluttony - you dont eat anymore if you are full
Drunkenness - who said anything about alcohol?

Why would god give us the same instinctual urges of animals if he didnt want us to succumb to them? If you never felt hunger, would you eat?

I'm Catholic and straight--just for the record.

As far as I'm concerned, God is loving and accepting of everyone regardless of sexuality. So no, it isn't a sin.

Gluttony - you dont eat anymore if you are full
Drunkenness - who said anything about alcohol?

Why would god give us the same instinctual urges of animals if he didnt want us to succumb to them? If you never felt hunger, would you eat?


As Christians we are to overcome our animalistic urges, and our sinful nature is to be replaced by our redemption in Christ.

As Christians we are to overcome our animalistic urges, and our sinful nature is to be replaced by our redemtion in Christ.

So God wants you to overcome urges necessary for survival? You still havent answered, if you didnt feel hunger, would you eat?

So God wants you to overcome urges necessary for survival? You still havent answered, if you didnt feel hunger, would you eat?

Not if I'm fasting.

[QUOTE=Khaban]
'Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" '

Honestly, that law is extremely outdated. It's in an ancient book of the Bible that really doesn't apply in today's world, and to take such a passage literally and generalize to today's world is really not appropriate.

We've come a long way since the Exodus. There's nothing wrong with being gay.

Priests have managed to warp Christian texts into some sort of message that God doesn't like homosexuals. Being homosexual isn't a sin, its an orientation. You don't choose whether to be homosexual or hetrosexual. It just happens. Plus, I think catholic and Prodestants have different views on this.

Not if I'm fasting.

While we are on the subject of fasting: If God wants you to respect the body he gave you, not eating is NOT the way to go.

Back to the topic on hand, your answer doesnt make any sense. Would you eat if you were not hungry? Would you eat if you had no natural desire to?

Not a sin.

Besides, lets look at Jesus. All of his Disciples were men. he didn't have a wife. Not even a lover. Now what does that exactly show? Either Jesus was anti-feminist or he was homosexual.

'Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" '

Honestly, that law is extremely outdated. It's in an ancient book of the Bible that really doesn't apply in today's world, and to take such a passage literally and generalize to today's world is really not appropriate.

We've come a long way since the Exodus. There's nothing wrong with being gay.

Thats not even the correct context. The actual verse is "V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee." Translation: "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman"

Noone has any clue what the hell that means. Some even think it means you shall not lay with a male in the bed of a woman. This is a disgrace to the males, as women were seen as property.

Leviticus is just a book to shield the Children of Israel from outside cultures in which things such as homosexuality have been perfectly acceptable since the beginning of civilization.

While we are on the subject of fasting: If God wants you to respect the body he gave you, not eating is NOT the way to go.

Back to the topic on hand, your answer doesnt make any sense. Would you eat if you were not hungry? Would you eat if you had no natural desire to?

Fasting is fine.

As humans, not talking about just Christians but everyone here, we regulate our diets. We control what we put into our bodies every time we put something into our mouth. We may choose to restrict it or not on our own decisions. We may choose to restrict it because we are on a diet to lose weight, or to gain weight, or to avoid allergies, or to reduce a medical ailment (a Dr. prescribed diet for a heart or cholesterol problem etc.,), and this has nothing to do with when and if we are hungry at the moment or not. We choose to control our ‘urge’ to eat in some fashion or another and prepare in advance for our hunger that has not yet even arrived…

As humans choose to regulate their diets all the time, likewise Christians need to regulate their diet, their lifestyle, their sexual/lust urges, their anger, their honesty, their temperance etc., and the way they live all the time.

We are directed to be ‘more’ than the simple animals, we are to be ‘more’ that we can be by ourselves and our own resources. Instead, we are ‘in Christ’ and Christ is ‘in us’ and with that we can be more than the sum of our bodies and our urges. Eternal life does not begin when we die, when you are born again you are born into eternal life immediately and we are directed and expected to begin controlling our lesser, baser, old selves.

Fasting is fine.

As humans, not talking about just Christians but everyone here, we regulate our diets. We control what we put into our bodies every time we put something into our mouth. We may choose to restrict it or not on our own decisions. We may choose to restrict it because we are on a diet to lose weight, or to gain weight, or to avoid allergies, or to reduce a medical ailment (a Dr. prescribed diet for a heart or cholesterol problem etc.,), and this has nothing to do with when and if we are hungry at the moment or not. We choose to control our ‘urge’ to eat in some fashion or another and prepare in advance for our hunger that has not yet even arrived…

As humans choose to regulate their diets all the time, likewise Christians need to regulate their diet, their lifestyle, their sexual/lust urges, their anger, their honesty, their temperance etc., and the way they live all the time.

We are directed to be ‘more’ than the simple animals, we are to be ‘more’ that we can be by ourselves and our own resources. Instead, we are ‘in Christ’ and Christ is ‘in us’ and with that we can be more than the sum of our bodies and our urges. Eternal life does not begin when we die, when you are born again you are born into eternal life immediately and we are directed and expected to begin controlling our lesser, baser, old selves.


What I am trying to explain to you is, if these urges didnt exist (and they do, just because you control your diet doesnt mean you are not hungry), humans and all other animals will cease to exist. There would be no reason to eat if you had no desire to. There would be no reason to have sex if you didnt have the desire to, and no reason to procreate.

You cant choose when you get hungry, or what you are hungry for. You cant even control it. You can starve yourself, but you cant escape the pains of hunger.

In the same way, homosexuality is a natural urge that cannot be helped or changed, and people really need to see it for what it is. It is not so me random fetish, it is part of human biology. No matter how much you try and lust for a woman, its not going to happen. No matter how much you think "man I really would like to eat cow intestine", you may never like how it tastes (assuming you dislike cow intestine).

First you defend the urge's existence and try to give the urge a right to exist, and then you justify the behavior brought on by the urge with the justification that the urge exists. It's a circular argument, and it doesn’t change the situation. The urge is to do a behavior that is forbidden, it doesn't matter if it is a 'natural' urge, a natural 'urge' is not the tell-tale sign of want is good and what is bad.

An urge can be a 'broken' part of us, like the 'urge' to do self harming actions (just an example of a bad urge, not an example, per-se, of homosexuality), but the urge to cut oneself with a razor is often described as an uncontrollable urge, the urge to over-eat and/or eat nothing but carbohydrates and cholesterol causing fats will cause us to become obesely overweight and harm our health and we avoid controlling it at our own peril.

The 'urges' we all have to do these things that we know are not good for us or we wish we would not do are not justified simply because of the existence of the urge to do the bad behavior. As for Christians, we are directed to avoid doing certain 'bad' behaviors that are ‘acceptable’ behaviors to some non-Christians in the world. Like having multiple spouses, or numerous lovers, or prostituts etc.

If a singular Christian decides that they will not forgo the sinful pleasures of their old lives and return to the actions of their old selves, I am not the one to judge them but I would remind them of Lot's wife, she looked back as well.

Thats not even the correct context. The actual verse is "V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee." Translation: "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman"

Noone has any clue what the hell that means. Some even think it means you shall not lay with a male in the bed of a woman. This is a disgrace to the males, as women were seen as property.

Leviticus is just a book to shield the Children of Israel from outside cultures in which things such as homosexuality have been perfectly acceptable since the beginning of civilization.

The way I was taught, is that while being gay is not a sin, you should control your urges and not sleep with men (waste sperm) as you do with women.

This has more to do with *in a singing voice* Every sperm being sacred. =)

Althought I doubt Jewish Rulings help you much. ;p

I'm Catholic and straight--just for the record.

As far as I'm concerned, God is loving and accepting of everyone regardless of sexuality. So no, it isn't a sin.
I don't get it. If you follow a religion, you have to follow ALL of its teachings. The catholic church does not like gay behaviour.

First you defend the urge's existence and try to give the urge a right to exist, and then you justify the behavior brought on by the urge with the justification that the urge exists. It's a circular argument, and it doesn’t change the situation. The urge is to do a behavior that is forbidden, it doesn't matter if it is a 'natural' urge, a natural 'urge' is not the tell-tale sign of want is good and what is bad.

No. This line of thinking is detrimental to existance. The urge exists to further life. If the urge did not exist, animals would not have survived OR procreated, this includes humans. The behavior should not be forbidden, as it is imperative that all animals, humans included, partake in these activities.

An urge can be a 'broken' part of us, like the 'urge' to do self harming actions (just an example of a bad urge, not an example, per-se, of homosexuality), but the urge to cut oneself with a razor is often described as an uncontrollable urge, the urge to over-eat and/or eat nothing but carbohydrates and cholesterol causing fats will cause us to become obesely overweight and harm our health and we avoid controlling it at our own peril.

This is a misunderstanding of instinct. Certain circumstances cause someone to contemplate self-mutilation. Most animals do not have such urges.

The 'urges' we all have to do these things that we know are not good for us

Stop right there. You are basically saying eating is not good.

If a singular Christian decides that they will not forgo the sinful pleasures of their old lives and return to the actions of their old selves, I am not the one to judge them but I would remind them of Lot's wife, she looked back as well.

Thats a story, with a moral that you just pointed out. I wonder if people would readily follow such stories if the lesson was "you must blind yourself with burning embers as sight deters your faith in the Lord".

Thats not even the correct context. The actual verse is "V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee." Translation: "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman"

Noone has any clue what the hell that means. Some even think it means you shall not lay with a male in the bed of a woman. This is a disgrace to the males, as women were seen as property.

Leviticus is just a book to shield the Children of Israel from outside cultures in which things such as homosexuality have been perfectly acceptable since the beginning of civilization.

It's interesting to hear such a viewpoint; it's great that you can translate the Hebrew into English. By the way, the quote from Leviticus that I used was used earlier in the post; I had no idea it wasn't correct.

It's interesting to hear such a viewpoint; it's great that you can translate the Hebrew into English. By the way, the quote from Leviticus that I used was used earlier in the post; I had no idea it wasn't correct.

The Bible has like 50 different versions, each one with different translations/interpretations. Thats the actual verse from the torah, which has been literally translated as the verse i put forth.

No. This line of thinking is detrimental to existance. The urge exists to further life. If the urge did not exist, animals would not have survived OR procreated, this includes humans. The behavior should not be forbidden, as it is imperative that all animals, humans included, partake in these activities.

You are saying that no behaviors should be forbidden? All activities that come with urges are okay?

I disagree.


This is a misunderstanding of instinct. Certain circumstances cause someone to contemplate self-mutilation. Most animals do not have such urges.

Not just most, but All species of animals that have behaviors that can be comparable to our own behaviors have individuals in their species that suffer from spats of bad behavior (bad being self or species harming behaviors), it occurs in nature all the time. It’s silly to pretend that disorders do not occur and that sometimes urges runt contrary to self and species advancement.

But that irrelevant to the Christian anyway, the Christian is to become, with God’s help, more than their animal form…


Stop right there. You are basically saying eating is not good.

Eating too much bad food can be very, very bad for you, deadly even.

Thats a story, with a moral that you just pointed out. I wonder if people would readily follow such stories if the lesson was "you must blind yourself with burning embers as sight deters your faith in the Lord".

You mean like the story you are trying to tell us, that we should do whatever our urges tell us to do without remorse and we will all be just fine? Hopefully rational people will not be deceived by that kind of story, I agree.

You are saying that no behaviors should be forbidden? All activities that come with urges are okay?

I disagree.

Fine. Dont eat because there is an urge associated with it. Dont drink water because there is an urge associated with it. See how long you survive.

Not just most, but All species of animals that have behaviors that can be comparable to our own behaviors have individuals in their species that suffer from spats of bad behavior (bad being self or species harming behaviors), it occurs in nature all the time. It’s silly to pretend that disorders do not occur and that sometimes urges runt contrary to self and species advancement.

Disorders do occur. Instinct, which is a "disorder" as you claim, is experienced by EVERY animal and is necessary to survival.

The only reason you call it bad behavior is because of your perception of "bad". Example: a dog pisses in the house. To the dog, it doesnt care where it pisses. It needs to piss, it knows this, so it pees. To you, it did a bad thing. Animals dont know what bad is. They rely on instinct for survival, there are no morals. If you ask me, I have no problem with that.

But that irrelevant to the Christian anyway, the Christian is to become, with God’s help, more than their animal form…

Yet become worse than animals by creating conflict and justifying it.

Eating too much bad food can be very, very bad for you, deadly even.

I can guarantee you that not eating food at all is worse, which you would do if you deny your urges.

You mean like the story you are trying to tell us, that we should do whatever our urges tell us to do without remorse and we will all be just fine? Hopefully rational people will not be deceived by that kind of story, I agree.

Be rational: what is bad about safe sex? What is bad about homosexuality?

Actually, Im done posting for the day. To sum up my arguments:

I dont see animals killing another member of the species because its fur is black. I dont see animals killing another male member of the species because it has sex with another male.

Animals focus merely on survival, rather than making shit up about whats bad or good. If humans did the same I think the world would be a little better.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ecorebbe/id18.html

^ This is a good commentary on homosexuality by a Rabbi. Everyone should read.

At the risk of repeating myself:

Do you believe eating seafood is just as much of a sin as homosexuality? Do you personally eat seafood?

Is your shirt made of a cotton/polyester blend? If so, you're sinning right now, at least according to Leviticus.


Can one of the biblical scholar types I know hang around in here do me a favor and dig up a part I dimly recall that basicly says you don't get to pick and choose which parts to follow? That might give a little more weight to the argument being made in this post.

Fuck Leviticus.


But, but . . . PAPER CUTS!!!!!

"When looking deeper into this mass campaign by the religious right numerous hypocritical flaws appear. For example in the Contemporary English Version of the BIBLE it states in Leviticus 20.13 “It is disgusting for men to have sex with one another...” but just three pages before in Leviticus 15.19-31 it says, “When a woman has her monthly period, she remains unclean for seven days...When any of you are unclean you must stay away from the community of Israel. Otherwise my sacred tent will become unclean and the whole nation will die.” I mean come on! I have asked many who believe that homosexuality is wrong to tell me why and the response is always, “Because it says so in the Old Testament.” But when I show them Leviticus 15 they say that Leviticus 15 is outdated. Why? Why is everyone dying from a period outdated but condemning gays is not? These right-winged Jerry Fawells are picking and choosing what they want to believe in a document that is more than six thousand years old, which completely destroys their argument of the BIBLE saying it is wrong."
http://undergroundactionalliance.org/project_article.php?proj_id=2&id=9



hee hee

There's a lot going on in this thread and I really don't have time to read all of it. I am a Christian and I really don't want to sound mean or condascending. The subject of homosexuality is one that I'm often asked about and honestly I'm never sure what to say. It's a sensitive area with many people.

Regarding the fact of whether God hates homosexuals, he doesn't. This is going to sound really pre-school, but God loves everybody. But God is so perfect that he can't stand sin. Sin hurts him, so he hates the sin which is why people are seperated from him and go to hell. Homosexuality is a sin, but so is any 'sexual impurity'. That doesn't strictly mean just sex. It doesn't mean you can do whatever as long as you don't go all the way (I know many Christians who struggle with that). God knows man is weak, which is why he invented marriage. The problem is that marriage was designed for a man and a woman not two men or two women (or more for that matter), and while hetero. sex can be right during marriage, homo. sex can never be right. That said the kid that steals a cookie, or the mass-murderer also commit sin and because God doesn't 'rank' sin like we as humans tend to do, then it's all the same to him. So God doesn't try to take it out on homosexuals in particular, the truth is everybody in the world is guilty of sin. That's why God sent his son Jesus, who died on the cross so that anybody who confesses that they've done wrong and believes what he's done for them might be saved.

Yeah, I know you don't want to hear this preachin so that's enough of that topic. I don't like to use the word 'Christian' because it covers so many general religions. Suffice to say I don't believe Catholicism is Christianity.

If you get the impression that Christians hate homosexuals then I'm very sorry to hear that because the second greatest commandment apparently is to love your neighbour as yourself, and so these Christians you refer to are wrong. I find myself that some Christians seem to find sexual sin as the worst kind and this strong view can blind them to the fact that the people who do commit sexual sin (can't think of a better way to generalise that) are real people and should be treated with respect and not scorn. I've always tried to be nice to everyone (well, I treat everyone with the same indifference, but I guess I've got to work on that) and the Christians I know well do the same, but there are still a few 'old-fashioned' people that are just a bit scared at how quickly homosexuality has become the norm, because not too long ago it was completely locked up in the closet.

I must sound really awful, or brainwashed or stupid, but believe me I'm not. I know I'm going to probably get torn into for posting this, but I guess I brought it on myself.

Yeah, I know you don't want to hear this preachin so that's enough of that topic. I don't like to use the word 'Christian' because it covers so many general religions. Suffice to say I don't believe Catholicism is Christianity.

I understand that everyone is allowed to believe what they want, but, last time I checked, Catholicism is a form of Christianity. What's your reasoning?

Edited to Add: I'm still trying to get coding down, so until I do, I won't put any in.

When in doubt, go to the Catechism. This is what Catholics believe about homosexuality.

Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. Under no circumstances can they be approved. However, they must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. Homosexual persons are called to chastity. They can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Basically Catholics believe the act and not the person is wrong. If you are gay, then that is not in itself a sin. But having sexual relations with your lover is. The Protestants are usually the ones who push for discrimination against gays. Westboro Baptist Church falls into that category.

Yeah, I know you don't want to hear this preachin so that's enough of that topic. I don't like to use the word 'Christian' because it covers so many general religions. Suffice to say I don't believe Catholicism is Christianity.

What makes catholicism not christian? Without them, you wouldn't have protestants. They were the first christians and are the most accurate of any church when it comes to the scriptures and traditions. Protestants on the other hand focus on one piece of scripture they like and base their whole church around that passage. Assembly of God focuses on Revelation, Mormonism focuses on the teachings of Joseph Smith (yes Mormons are considered Protestant.) Pentecostals focus on the teaching of speaking in tongues, you get the idea.

Read your church history buddy before spewing your biased opinion.