NationStates Jolt Archive

Seriously, Israels campaign has to end right now. The disarment of Hezbollah can be worked out after ceasefire. Even Rice wants a ceasefire now, after the news that up to 60 civilians had been killed in an airstrike in Qana.
Atleast 20 children are among the victims.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-30T092406Z_01_L30601514_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-RICE-QANA.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C2-TopNews-newsOne-2
http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?catid=138&newsid=93144&ch=0

Yeah, it should... shouldn't it.

It's interesting how the "terrorists" have killed around 50 people, mostly military, and the Israelis have killed around 500 people (let's face it, way more than that, because who's digging?), of whom >90% are civilians.

Hezbollah's "monkey throwing darts" approach to fighting, is so far producing better results with respect to avoiding civilian casualties. Just looking at the stats, it amazes me that Israel is on a lower moral footing.

Yes it should. Or perhaps the international community should simply disarm Israel completely, arm Syria to the teeth & look the other way for the next 40 years while the Israelis struggle under Syria's bloody & brutal military occupation.

I'm getting a bit tired of this inverse cause-effect relationship. It's insane.

No matter what happens now, Israel will end up the loser. Not just will they lose what little support they have in the international community, a relatively benign state to the north will become radically anti-Israeli for decades to come.

And Israel fell for what the terrorists wanted: for Israel to become their new recruiting seargent.

The Christians of Lebanon who also make up 49% of the population are calling to help their lebanese brethren, for the first time they are going against Israel with anti-Israeli feelings rampant, never thought I would see the day when the Arab Christians are calling to fight on behalf of their Muslim neighbors and brothers :(

Hezbollah's "monkey throwing darts" approach to fighting, is so far producing better results with respect to avoiding civilian casualties. Just looking at the stats, it amazes me that Israel is on a lower moral footing.
Yeah, it's Hezbollah's approach not that the IDF tries to seperate itself from civilian populations, and makes a target of itself. Props to Hezbollah for using civilian infrastructur and non-combatants as shieids. Boo Israel for not doing the same!

Honestly, why should Israel abide by the customs of war there's absolutely no strategic or political advantage in it for them. They should act just like Hezbollah and leverage their disproportunate capabilities.

Its an interesting fact that now over 80% of Lebanese christians support Hezbollah, unlike in previous conflicts.
Israel has made a huge mistake, they have lost a lot of international credibility, and now they have only made themselves more enemies, Hezbollah wil come out of this stronger.
Yes, they may have lost some of their weapons, and so on, but they will re-arm, and be stronger than ever, and only Israel is to blame.

I really hate Rice. Few days ago she was pretty much giving Israel US's full support.. Now she wants a ceasefire. Bitch.

I really hate Rice. Few days ago she was pretty much giving Israel US's full support.. Now she wants a ceasefire. Bitch.

Agreed.

Israel is a victim of a powerful terrorist organization, and I support their actions fully. Hezbolah has taken responsibility for dozens or international terrorist acts, and is now firing rockets into Israel, not to mention hiding behind innocent Lebonese people. For the first time, members of the Arab league have shown limited support for Israel, by looking down on the actions of Hezbolah. The IDF definitely has a right to defend the people of Israel from terrorist attack, and is doing the whole world a favor by trying to cripple if not remove Hezbolah from existance.

Honestly, why should Israel abide by the customs of war there's absolutely no strategic or political advantage in it for them.
Because supposedly this is what separates Good Guys from Bad Guys. :rolleyes:

I am an old-fashioned guy who believes in brutal honesty. If a country is of the opinion that the most effective way to fight an enemy is by adopting its attitudes and methods, then it should have to guts to cease its claims about being Better.

A policy of imprisonment without trial? Stop saying that this is what you would go to war to oppose. Claiming dead civilians were human shields? Just come out and say it - that you are as indifferent to civilian suffering as is the enemy, and that the presence of crowds will not stop triggers from being squeezed.

If you have to fight like with like, drop the pretensions. This is what I feel to the core. Better be an honest bad guy than a good guy who lies.

If you have to fight like with like, drop the pretensions. This is what I feel to the core. Better be an honest bad guy than a good guy who lies.
Dare I ask what you mean by Good guy and Bad guy here? That sentence doesn't seem to make much sense at the minute...

Seriously, Israels campaign has to end right now. The disarment of Hezbollah can be worked out after ceasefire. Even Rice wants a ceasefire now, after the news that up to 60 civilians had been killed in an airstrike in Qana.
Atleast 20 children are among the victims.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-30T092406Z_01_L30601514_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-RICE-QANA.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C2-TopNews-newsOne-2
http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?catid=138&newsid=93144&ch=0

The death of civilians is always a tragic thing. However Israel had dropped pamphlets on the town warning them that an attack would be immenent and to evacuate the town. The moral of the story is, when IDF tells you to leave a town, then imo its the families faults for hiding thier children in a warzone and placing thier kids in additional jepordy. They were given fair warning that the area would be dangerous and choose to ignore them. So yes its sad, and yes its unfortunate. But it does NOTHING to change the reasons why IDF is there in the first place.

Do you honestly think that just because some civilians died in a warzone that it makes Israel wrong for not wanting to be victims of kidnapping and terror? They have simply no choice but to be proactive and eliminate the threat. It seems to me the most basic and common sence approaches with very little alternative options with the sutuation as it had been. Israel cant be a siting duck while Hez waves to the UN soldiers as they cross the Israeli border and attack people at will. That this situation can not be allowed to continue should come as no suprise. The Israeli offensive although regrettable is the only solution they had. Ultimatly, Israel will get a "real" iinternational force to replace the insufficient UN grp that curently exist and in the long run this whole endevor will work out for the best in the larger picture of things.

I really hate Rice. Few days ago she was pretty much giving Israel US's full support.. Now she wants a ceasefire. Bitch.

Rice speaks for the United States. She does it well.
Do you hate Powell for lying to the UN? It's a similar situation.
Ad hominem.

(Anyone notice that both of those were black americans? Got a dirty job, give it to the ... <no, I won't say that word>.)

The death of civilians is always a tragic thing. However Israel had dropped pamphlets on the town warning them that an attack would be immenent and to evacuate the town. The moral of the story is, when IDF tells you to leave a town, then imo its the families faults for hiding thier children in a warzone and placing thier kids in additional jepordy. They were given fair warning that the area would be dangerous and choose to ignore them. So yes its sad, and yes its unfortunate. But it does NOTHING to change the reasons why IDF is there in the first place.
Okay then. Suppose China decided tomorrow that it had had enough of "American Imperialism" and decided to forcefully remove the Republican Party from office. Going via Cuba, they chose to launch an assault on Washington DC to take out the party's headquarters. They decide to drop billions of leaflets on the city to warn the populace of its intentions to attack the city and take out the republicans.

1) Do you expect people to move?
2) Can you really hold them responsible for not moving?

Okay then. Suppose China decided tomorrow that it had had enough of "American Imperialism" and decided to forcefully remove the Republican Party from office. Going via Cuba, they chose to launch an assault on Washington DC to take out the party's headquarters. They decide to drop billions of leaflets on the city to warn the populace of its intentions to attack the city and take out the republicans.

1) Do you expect people to move?
2) Can you really hold them responsible for not moving?

If the Republicans kidnapped Chineese soldiers and held them for ransom and launched rockets at Bejing then 1) Yes and 2) Yes

If i heard China had launched incomming nukes at my city and i didnt try to leave, id be retarded. And dead.

Seriously, Israels campaign has to end right now. The disarment of Hezbollah can be worked out after ceasefire. Even Rice wants a ceasefire now, after the news that up to 60 civilians had been killed in an airstrike in Qana.
Atleast 20 children are among the victims.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-30T092406Z_01_L30601514_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-RICE-QANA.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C2-TopNews-newsOne-2
http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?catid=138&newsid=93144&ch=0

Now let me ask you a question. Do you think that Hezbollah will disarm even if they are told to?

The Christians of Lebanon who also make up 49% of the population are calling to help their lebanese brethren, for the first time they are going against Israel with anti-Israeli feelings rampant, never thought I would see the day when the Arab Christians are calling to fight on behalf of their Muslim neighbors and brothers :(

I would like to see a news article about this.

Seriously, Israels campaign has to end right now.


Or else......what?



The disarment of Hezbollah can be worked out after ceasefire.


BWAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA

Yes Im certan Hezbollah will agree to this


BWAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA

In fact Ill bet that they are ready to sign a treaty now to this effect

BWAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA

No really!

BWAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA

And above all else they mean it this time

BWAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAABWAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA

-snip-
Its all well and good saying "They were told to move, but didn't. Its their own fault."

How does one escape the fighting?
On foot?

By car or convoy? With all the damaged roads, highways and bridges? With the seeming pervailing attitude of this:

He [Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon] added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

Or the fact that travelling by car in South Lebanon is enough to be deemed a target and hit by Helicopter gunship and/or armed drone. The ambulances and aid convoys know this well.

If you move, you get bombed.
If you stay, you get bombed.

They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Apparently, Siniora has decided to put off talks about a resolution to the crisis while calling for an Unconditional cease-fire.

In response to putting of talks on resolving the issue, Rice cancelled her trip to Beirut.

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said all talks on a resolution to the Mideast crisis are on hold because of the Israeli airstrike that killed dozens of women and children in the southern Lebanese town of Qana early Sunday.

....

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had planned to travel to Beirut Sunday afternoon to discuss proposals to end the Mideast crisis. Rice was in Jerusalem Sunday morning meeting with Israeli Foreign Minister Livni.

A U.S. official in Washington confirmed that Rice would not be going to Beirut, calling the decision by the Lebanese prime minister "unfortunate."

"Out of respect for the souls of our innocent martyrs and the remains of our children buried under the rubble of Qana, we scream out to our fellow Lebanese and to other Arab brothers and to the whole world to stand united in the face of the Israeli war criminals," Siniora said in an impassioned television address Sunday morning.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/30/mideast.rice/index.html

Seriously, Israels campaign has to end right now.

I'll get right on that.

By car or convoy? With all the damaged roads, highways and bridges?

The Israelis warned them to get out before the bombing started, naturally, so the transportation routes are intact, right?

Or else......what?
...
<snip>
...A

Sunday huh? Cheers mate! <clink>

How about a total disarmament of both sides? Both Hamas/Hizbollah, and Israel..But no..that's too obvios a solution for some people..

How about a total disarmament of both sides? Both Hamas/Hizbollah, and Israel..But no..that's too obvios a solution for some people..

I am reminded of a saying:

Disarm the terrorists and there will be peace, disarm Israel and there will be a new holocaust.

Its all well and good saying "They were told to move, but didn't. Its their own fault."

How does one escape the fighting?
On foot?

By car or convoy? With all the damaged roads, highways and bridges? With the seeming pervailing attitude of this:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

Or the fact that travelling by car in South Lebanon is enough to be deemed a target and hit by Helicopter gunship and/or armed drone. The ambulances and aid convoys know this well.

If you move, you get bombed.
If you stay, you get bombed.

They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Excellent post. Congrats.
Quoted in full.

The Israelis warned them to get out before the bombing started, naturally, so the transportation routes are intact, right?
You seem to have ignored the rest of my point:

Or the fact that travelling by car in South Lebanon is enough to be deemed a target.

Like I said: Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I am reminded of a saying:

Disarm the terrorists and there will be peace, disarm Israel and there will be a new holocaust.
Not if we do this properly..Put a multinational peacekeeping force in position in Israel, instead, to make sure that the peace is kept. And make sure it's big enough that Syria doesn't start getting any ideas..

Violence begets violence

Fighting for Peace is an oxymoron

There is no way to Peace. Peace is the way - Ghandi

Not if we do this properly..Put a multinational peacekeeping force in position in Israel, instead, to make sure that the peace is kept. And make sure it's big enough that Syria doesn't start getting any ideas..

And in Lebanon to aid the Lebanese government disarming Hezbollah.

Not if we do this properly..Put a multinational peacekeeping force in position in Israel, instead, to make sure that the peace is kept. And make sure it's big enough that Syria doesn't start getting any ideas..

Apparently you do not know that much about the History of the Middle East.

Apparently you do not know that much about the History of the Middle East.
Actually, yes I do..But you are forgetting that there are only two neighbhours that Israel really needs to worry about. Lebanon (ie Hizbollah), and Syria..Both Egypt, and Jordan, have long since lost all interest in fighting Israel..And after the slaughtering they got during the 6 day war, and the war of 73, I don't blame them.
And in Lebanon to aid the Lebanese government disarming Hezbollah.
Goes without saying. It is the only way they will ever be disarmed..The Lebanese goverment can't, even though they would love to..

Actually, yes I do..But you are forgetting that there are only two neighbhours that Israel really needs to worry about. Lebanon (ie Hizbollah), and Syria..Both Egypt, and Jordan, have long since lost all interest in fighting Israel..And after the slaughtering they got during the 6 day war, and the war of 73, I don't blame them.

You are only thinking in small terms. You are also forgetting about Hamas in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Also, you must remember that Israel will not give up its weapons. I would not in their shoes.

Like I said: Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Don't worry about it. When we talk about Hezbollah now, we're talking about "ZOMG TEH EBIL TERRORISTSTSTSSSS!!1!!1!!"

The US Ambassador to the United Nations even said that the death of Lebanese civilians didn't matter in the face of Israeli civilians.

It's a sad world in which we live. Best to just have a laugh and another beer.

Actually, yes I do..But you are forgetting that there are only two neighbhours that Israel really needs to worry about. Lebanon (ie Hizbollah), and Syria..Both Egypt, and Jordan, have long since lost all interest in fighting Israel..And after the slaughtering they got during the 6 day war, and the war of 73, I don't blame them.

Goes without saying. It is the only way they will ever be disarmed..The Lebanese goverment can't, even though they would love to..

Um, I think Not bad summed this up best. "I say, chaps, why not just rather stop your crusade against the Zionists and give up your weapons? How 'bout it, dontcha know?" What if we tried to disarm Al-Qaida, for example? Hezbollah would admittedly be a better target for disarmament since they're more of a static organisation, they're not exactly inconspicuous. But they'd just revert to your standard guerilla group if we tried to disarm them. Besides, no one will agree to be in the multinational force.

You are only thinking in small terms. You are also forgetting about Hamas in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Also, you must remember that Israel will not give up its weapons. I would not in their shoes.
I don't blame you, or indeed them, for that..But they really should start trying other ways than blowing guys up left and right..Maybe by actually helping the Palestinians making their own terretory into a better place might help in the long term..
As soon as people start seeing that their goals in life could be fulfilled better by simply living in peace, then things start improving..
Also this happens to be something that they have never even tried to do yet
Um, I think Not bad summed this up best. "I say, chaps, why not just rather stop your crusade against the Zionists and give up your weapons? How 'bout it, dontcha know?" What if we tried to disarm Al-Qaida, for example? Hezbollah would admittedly be a better target for disarmament since they're more of a static organisation, they're not exactly inconspicuous. But they'd just revert to your standard guerilla group if we tried to disarm them. Besides, no one will agree to be in the multinational force.
Goes to show one thing, mate..Guns and religion do not mix..You should never allow religion highups to command the armed forces (as in Israel, Iran, and I'm certain elsewhere)

Apparently you do not know that much about the History of the Middle East.
Excellent. Now all we need is for that ignorance to spread to the middle east as well and everything will be sorted.

I don't blame you, or indeed them, for that..But they really should start trying other ways than blowing guys up left and right..Maybe by actually helping the Palestinians making their own terretory into a better place might help in the long term..

They have tried that Carbandia. Their only reward is to have their citizens blown up by a suicide bomber from either Hamas or Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

As soon as people start seeing that their goals in life could be fulfilled better by simply living in peace, then things start improving..
Also this happens to be something that they have never even tried to do yet

Which I will say that the statement is false for they have tried.

While Israeldoes everything reasonable to minimize civilian casualties (like dropping leaflets with warnings prior to bombing, JS)-- not always with success -- Hezbollah and Hamas want to maximize civilian casualties on both sides. Islamic terrorists, a diplomat commented years ago, "have mastered the harsh arithmetic of pain. . . . Palestinian casualties play in their favor and Israeli casualties play in their favor." These are groups that send children to die as suicide bombers, sometimes without the child knowing that he is being sacrificed. Two years ago, an 11-year-old was paid to take a parcel through Israeli security. Unbeknownst to him, it contained a bomb that was to be detonated remotely. (Fortunately the plot was foiled.)
This misuse of civilians as shields and swords requires a reassessment of the laws of war. The distinction between combatants and civilians -- easy when combatants were uniformed members of armies that fought on battlefields distant from civilian centers -- is more difficult in the present context. Now, there is a continuum of "civilianality": Near the most civilian end of this continuum are the pure innocents -- babies, hostages and others completely uninvolved; at the more combatant end are civilians who willingly harbor terrorists, provide material resources and serve as human shields; in the middle are those who support the terrorists politically, or spiritually.
The laws of war and the rules of morality must adapt to these realities. An analogy to domestic criminal law is instructive: A bank robber who takes a teller hostage and fires at police from behind his human shield is guilty of murder if they, in an effort to stop the robber from shooting, accidentally kill the hostage. The same should be true of terrorists who use civilians as shields from behind whom they fire their rockets. The terrorists must be held legally and morally responsible for the deaths of the civilians, even if the direct physical cause was an Israeli rocket aimed at those targeting Israeli citizens.
-Alan Dershowitz

They have tried that Carbandia. Their only reward is to have their citizens blown up by a suicide bomber from either Hamas or Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.



Which I will say that the statement is false for they have tried.
When? Might I see proof of what you are saying there?

When? Might I see proof of what you are saying there?

As I said. You are not that well informed on the Middle East. Also, what was Hamas' purpose for hitting a resort hotel in the Sinai?

Also, what was Hamas' purpose for hitting a resort hotel in the Sinai?

The food sucked.

As I said. You are not that well informed on the Middle East. Also, what was Hamas' purpose for hitting a resort hotel in the Sinai?
And you still are not providing the proof I asked for..Instead you are dodging the question.

And you still are not providing the proof I asked for..Instead you are dodging the question.

I am not going to do your research for you. Now answer my question. Why did Hamas hit a resort hotel in the Sinai?

Seriously, Israels campaign has to end right now. The disarment of Hezbollah can be worked out after ceasefire. Even Rice wants a ceasefire now, after the news that up to 60 civilians had been killed in an airstrike in Qana.
Atleast 20 children are among the victims.



No ceasefire, kill hezzbollah at any cost.

I am not going to do your research for you. Now answer my question. Why did Hamas hit a resort hotel in the Sinai?
To spread terror? After all that is the very definition of what a terrorist does...

Violence begets violence

Fighting for Peace is an oxymoron



Violence doesn't always begat more violence.

After the U.S. dropped two atmoic bombs on Japan during WW2 it begat peace.

Also this happens to be something that they have never even tried to do yet



Google the Oslo Accords

Violence doesn't always begat more violence.

After the U.S. dropped two atmoic bombs on Japan during WW2 it begat peace.
Followed by nearly 50 years of the world shaking in it's collective boots at the threat of nuclear war at any moment..Not the best of examples, mate.

To spread terror? After all that is the very definition of what a terrorist does...

And here I thought it was because of Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Also keep in mind that Israel did pull out of Gaza and how are they returned? They get attacked by Hamas from Gaza.

Goes to show that no matter what Israel does, they will constently continued to be attacked by terrorists who do not like them and want to see the State of Israel destroyed.

Followed by nearly 50 years of the world shaking in it's collective boots at the threat of nuclear war at any moment..

I'll take that over full blown war any day.

Followed by nearly 50 years of the world shaking in it's collective boots at the threat of nuclear war at any moment..Not the best of examples, mate.

If the bombs were not dropped, we very well could have had an all out nuclear war.

If the bombs were not dropped, we very well could have had an all out nuclear war.
Extremely doubtfull. Japan had no nukes, and no capability to make them, either..If neither Hiroshima, nor Nagasaki, nor the following nuclear tests had happened, who knows..we might never have seen any nukes built..

Of course this would mean that the chance of a non nuclear WW3 scenario would be that more likely..
I'll take that over full blown war any day.
Happens that I agree with you there.

Extremely doubtfull. Japan had no nukes, and no capability to make them, either..If neither Hiroshima, nor Nagasaki, nor the following nuclear tests had happened, who knows..we might never have seen any nukes built..

Of course this would mean that the chance of a non nuclear WW3 scenario would be that more likely..

Do you know what the Manhatten Project was? It was the US project to design build and test a nuclear bomb. July 1945 the United States tested the first ever nuclear bomb. So yes, there would have been nukes.

Do you know what the Manhatten Project was? It was the US project to design build and test a nuclear bomb. July 1945 the United States tested the first ever nuclear bomb. So yes, there would have been nukes.
Would you please stop talking to me like I am a five year old that hasn't read history? It so happens that I know full well about the Manhattan Project.
What I am saying is that perhaps the world would have been better off if the project had ended with that first nuke..Or, better yet, without it ever having been detonated, thus proving that it actually worked..

Would you please stop talking to me like I am a five year old that hasn't read history? It so happens that I know full well about the Manhattan Project.
What I am saying is that perhaps the world would have been better off if the project had ended with that first nuke..Or, better yet, without it ever having been detonated, thus proving that it actually worked..

When you build something, you test it to make sure it worked. You also have to remember that the USSR also had a nuclear project going as did Japan, Germany, and Britain. Imagine if the USSR tested their bomb before we did. Do you still think there would not have been nuclear bombs?

Ok..now you are just grasping at straws..

The Japanese nuclear program had just hit a brick wall (literally). They had no access to uranium, as the shipment the German's sent them never made it (stopped by the Allies (thank heavens)), and even if they had had any, they were only starting out.

The German one had already been defeated, when Norwegian resistance destroyed virtually their entire supply of heavy water.

And as for the Brits, and Russians..Neither exploded a bomb till well after the war, and after the US had proved it was possible.

No, if Manhattan had not worked, then there would not have been any nukes.

Ok..now you are just grasping at straws..

The Japanese nuclear program had just hit a brick wall (literally). They had no access to uranium, as the shipment the German's sent them never made it (stopped by the Allies (thank heavens)), and even if they had had any, they were only starting out.

The German one had already been defeated, when Norwegian resistance destroyed virtually their entire supply of heavy water.

And as for the Brits, and Russians..Neither exploded a bomb till well after the war, and after the US had proved it was possible.

No, if Manhattan had not worked, then there would not have been any nukes.

Actually you are the one grasping at straws. The USSR more than likely would have tested a bomb anyway regardless if the United States did or did not tested theirs. Do you firmly believe that Stalin would have let a prime opportunity like that slipping through his fingers? They would have continued to work on it till they got their bomb.

Seriously, Israels campaign has to end right now. The disarment of Hezbollah can be worked out after ceasefire. Even Rice wants a ceasefire now, after the news that up to 60 civilians had been killed in an airstrike in Qana.
Atleast 20 children are among the victims.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-30T092406Z_01_L30601514_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-RICE-QANA.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C2-TopNews-newsOne-2
http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?catid=138&newsid=93144&ch=0

Although war and, especially civilian, deaths are always deplorable and should only ever come as a last resort... I just wondered how you plan to peacefully 'work out' the disarment of a terrorist group bent on Israel's destruction?

<quote>
-Alan Dershowitz

Beautifully written ... fascist bullshit.
Welcome to the forum.

Okay then. Suppose China decided tomorrow that it had had enough of "American Imperialism" and decided to forcefully remove the Republican Party from office. Going via Cuba, they chose to launch an assault on Washington DC to take out the party's headquarters. They decide to drop billions of leaflets on the city to warn the populace of its intentions to attack the city and take out the republicans.

1) Do you expect people to move?
2) Can you really hold them responsible for not moving?

1. Frigging jingle bells ditty bag yes I expect them to move if they want to live.
2. Hold them responsible for not moving, maybe. Feeling sorry for them when their asses get blasted away, No.

Now let me ask you a question. Do you think that Hezbollah will disarm even if they are told to?

What a stupid question. They haven't yet and have no intensions of doing so in the future.

What a stupid question. They haven't yet and have no intensions of doing so in the future.

I know it was a "stupid question" but when I saw the opening post, I thought I should ask it just the same to the Original Poster.

Its all well and good saying "They were told to move, but didn't. Its their own fault."

How does one escape the fighting?
On foot?

Hell yes if necessary. If I were bombarded by leaflets and received telephone calls from some army telling me they were on the way and if I stayed, I might be dead, you bet your ass I would try to get out. There have been many wars even in recent times where refugees have walked away from the combat zone because they had no other way to get out.

Hell yes if necessary. If I were bombarded by leaflets and received telephone calls from some army telling me they were on the way and if I stayed, I might be dead, you bet your ass I would try to get out. There have been many wars even in recent times where refugees have walked away from the combat zone because they had no other way to get out.

and that makes it acceptible so? you can demolish appartment blocks with impunity becase people can run away?

what would they eat and drink for 19 days?

you are a sick creature if you believe that

And you still are not providing the proof I asked for..Instead you are dodging the question.

The proof of what he is saying has been in the news for years. He can not help it if you do not watch or read news. :rolleyes:

Followed by nearly 50 years of the world shaking in it's collective boots at the threat of nuclear war at any moment..Not the best of examples, mate.

How about when the US FB-111 aircraft knocked on Muammar al-Gaddafi's front door. Is that a better example?

The proof of what he is saying has been in the news for years. He can not help it if you do not watch or read news. :rolleyes:

If someone makes a statement about a specific event, Carbandia is entitled to ask for a source. I'm not saying it's not true, just that "I'm not going to do your research for you" is a childish and innappropriate dodge.

If someone makes a statement about a specific event, Carbandia is entitled to ask for a source. I'm not saying it's not true, just that "I'm not going to do your research for you" is a childish and innappropriate dodge.

Sorry but I do not do research for other people unless it is for a class assignment and it is a group project. Other than that, if the other person cannot be bothered to do his or her own research, it is not my problem.

"Let this war end in either total victory or our extinction. No further compromise shall we allow."

This is what the war has come down to. I'm suprised it hasn't happened sooner.

(Name where I got the quote from)

Hell yes if necessary. If I were bombarded by leaflets and received telephone calls from some army telling me they were on the way and if I stayed, I might be dead, you bet your ass I would try to get out. There have been many wars even in recent times where refugees have walked away from the combat zone because they had no other way to get out.
Hmm, stay underground in your bunker praying you can successfully ride out the worst of the attacks or travel through hostile territory on foot praying you don't look like a Hezb'allah fighter through the eyes of a UAV or Helicopter gunship....

He [Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon] added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

Tough choice that.

Stay and be bombed.
Move and be bombed.

Hmm, stay underground in your bunker praying you can successfully ride out the worst of the attacks or travel through hostile territory on foot praying you don't look like a Hezb'allah fighter through the eyes of a UAV or Helicopter gunship...

Personally I'd try the later, better chance of survial, besides you can hide from Gunships easier than you can hide from a bomb. Besides the UAV and gunship person is human, they have to stop to make decisions or at least look at you, at least a 50% 50% chance at least of not getting shot if you're just walking, better then a 90% chance of getting leveled in the building you're hiding in.

Personally I'd try the later, better chance of survial, besides you can hide from Gunships easier than you can hide from a bomb.
Hide? Why would you hide? Clearly you must be a terrorist.. BOOM!

Hide? Why would you hide? Clearly you must be a terrorist.. BOOM!
Not that type of hiding idiot.

But damned if you do damned if you don't, Israel is the same way, if they stop now, the terrorists still win, if they keep fighting the terrorists still win.

Not that type of hiding idiot.
1) Flaming does little to enhance your points as credible.

2)"If he runs -he's a badly trained gook, if he stands still- he's a well trained gook"

1) Flaming does little to enhance your points as credible.

2)"If he runs -he's a badly trained gook, if he stands still- he's a well trained gook"

1.I think everyone in the world is an idiot, including myself, therefore I don't consider it flaming.

2. And if he just lays there, he's a lazy gook.

1.I think everyone in the world is an idiot, including myself, therefore I don't consider it flaming.

2. And if he just lays there, he's a lazy gook.
Its really irrelevant if you consider it flaming or not- this isn't your board, there are still rules for good guidance. I suggest you read them.

Stange, if a story emerged of fleeing civilians being mistaken for Hezb'allah fighters and killed, I have no doubt whatsoever the response would be:

"DUH! Retards! What were they doing walking about in the middle of a fucking warzone!?! UNNGG! They deserved it because they were that stupid!!!!11!1"

and that makes it acceptible so? you can demolish appartment blocks with impunity becase people can run away?

what would they eat and drink for 19 days?

you are a sick creature if you believe that

Ok, here is the deal. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, not the legitimate military of a legitimate government. One of their well-known tactics is to hide behind human shields, hide in civilian areas, and fire rockets into Israel from civilian areas. As terrorists they, like their counterparts the world over, do not care who is killed. Terrorists, including Hezbollah have no problem blowing up innocent civilians no matter who those civilians are or whose side they are on. The terrorists have blown up their own people in markets in Baghdad, Israel, and other places.

Hezbollah has not had very much support in this current war even from some of the Arab or Islamic nations. Saudi Arabia and others have been very cool toward them during this conflict. One way Hezbollah can gain sympathy is to show the world that Israel is killing “innocent women and children.”

Israel, knowing that Hezbollah has no compunction about using innocents as shield attempts to minimize civilian casualties by letting the civilian population, and the enemy, know the area they are living in will be targeted by dropping leaflets, announcements on the radio and television, and even making telephone calls.

Knowing they might be killed, the civilians, for whatever reason do not leave. Maybe they do not or cannot walk out, maybe they are Hezbollah sympathizers, maybe Hezbollah will not let them leave, maybe they just want to stay home and “take their chances.” The reason for their not leaving does not matter, it is the fact that they stay knowing Hezbollah will use them as shields and knowing the IDF will target Hezbollah that counts.

They know the danger they are placing themselves in. Then, when Hezbollah fires rockets from an area and the IDF strikes that area killing innocent women and children Hezbollah wins. It is what Hezbollah wants. Hezbollah has set these people up to be killed, they have murdered them just so they can go to the world and say, “See how the Zionists kill innocent women and children.” They have murdered these people just so they can gain sympathy for their cause. They cannot win a fighting war against Israel, but they are damn good at winning a propaganda war and they do not give a damn who dies just as long as they can reach their goal.

End of rant.

How about when the US FB-111 aircraft knocked on Muammar al-Gaddafi's front door. Is that a better example?

It's a brilliant example.
Operation "Knock 'n door"

<stops talking to gun-wielding nutter>

The Israelis have every right to blow the crud out of Lebanon.

Israel withdrew from their occupied areas several years ago. Syria's intervention ended the Lebanese civil war about the same time. Lebanon has had all of that time to stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel from Lebanese territory.

There's a term for harboring people who are attacking a sovereign nation. Casus Belli. Cause for war.

The Lebanese people brought this on themselves.

I blame Canada.

Sorry but I do not do research for other people unless it is for a class assignment and it is a group project. Other than that, if the other person cannot be bothered to do his or her own research, it is not my problem.

If you're stating a fact it shouldn't require research to give a source, just you saying how you know it.

The Israelis have every right to blow the crud out of Lebanon.

Israel withdrew from their occupied areas several years ago. Syria's intervention ended the Lebanese civil war about the same time. Lebanon has had all of that time to stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel from Lebanese territory.

There's a term for harboring people who are attacking a sovereign nation. <gratuitous latin>

The Lebanese people brought this on themselves.

...by expelling Syrian troops.

EDIT: Sorry, I can't resist: are you really a dodo with ten feet?

I'm not being very original here, but the Rome peace talks were just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The region has descended too far now and something has to give. The world could just button up and watch with interest as they all scratch each other's eyes out, and make a killing at Ladbrookes.

If you're stating a fact it shouldn't require research to give a source, just you saying how you know it.

My proof comes from their own officials. Israel has tried to help Palestine get on its feet so that they can declare statehood but you have Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Fatah's militant group) and Hamas (Hamas's militant group) bent on total destruction of the State of Israel. It is hard to get anything accomplished when these two groups attack and kill Israeli civilians and military personel.

Now you have Hezbollah who attacked Israeli soldiers in a cross border attack that resulted in the capturing of 2 Israeli soldiers. The only way peace will have a chance in the region is if the Arab governments, such as Syria, stop supporting terrorist groups.

Israel has given terrority back to owners before as was the case in 1979 when Israel signed their historic peace treaty with Egypt. In response, Israel gave up the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt. Have you noticed that peace has stayed between these two nations? Israel has not gone back into the Sinai in quite sometime because of a true peace.

Similar attempts have been made between the Palestinian Authority and Israel but they have always been sabatoged by terrorist attacks which causes Israel to respond.

In regards to Hezbollah, they were formed to kick Israel out of Lebanon. You know what? Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000. There was no need for Hezbollah to continue their attacks against Israel since they accomplished their goal of forcing Israel to withdraw. So why is Hezbollah still around? Have you noticed that all the other militias disarmed so that peace can reign in Lebanon under a united government? Syria's military is no longer there but I believe that their intelligence group is still in there. We know that Syria is arming Hezbollah since they were founded with Syria's and Iran's help.

Hezbollah has done alot in the south on the humanitarian front and I applaud that efforts but those who are responsible for the humanitarian efforts have not distance themselves from their militant faction. Why do you think that Hezbollah as a whole is getting blamed for what is going on and not just their militant faction? If their political faction can distance themselves from their militant faction, we would have an interesting shakeup in this conflict. I do not see that happening at all.

Israel is defending themselves. I do not agree with the amount of force they are using but I can understand why they are using this much force. They are sick and tired of the numerous rocket attacks. Unfortunately for them, those rocket launchers are placed among civilians and thus have a higher risk of taking out civilians than Hezbollah does with their rocket attacks using unguided rockets. That is why you are seeing massive amounts of civilian casualties in Lebanon. Not to mention that Hezbollah stores their stuff in civilian structures. Under International Law, these do become targets because they are being used in a war against Israel and thus making it legal for Israel to hit it which causes more civilian casualties.

It does sadden my heart to see this many casualties being inflicted upon the Lebanonese and I just wish that both sides will agree to a cease-fire. I do not see one happening anytime soon unfortunately just like I do not believe that there will be peace in the Region till the time is right for one to occur.

I'm not being very original here, but the Rome peace talks were just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The region has descended too far now and something has to give. The world could just button up and watch with interest as they all scratch each other's eyes out, and make a killing at Ladbrookes.

:D
Not sure about the "Ladbrokes" thing, but you're right up there for not being original!
You're saying that everything here, and elsewhere, is a fabric of cliche?
You write for the Sun, right?
:D

:D
Not sure about the "Ladbrokes" thing, but you're right up there for not being original!
You're saying that everything here, and elsewhere, is a fabric of cliche?
You write for the Sun, right?
:D


I do not write for the Sun (which I consider a ridiculous and somewhat laughable publication), but the clichés were intentional. If you're going to do something then you should at least make an effort. That's my motto.

Well, strictly speaking it's pro rege et patria but one can't have everything.

I for one stopped reading here. That paragraph is a grasshopper paragraph. It's factual salad, mercifully terminated by a <newline>

So what you are basically saying is that I am wrong regardless of what I post? I made a mistake in regards to Israel signing a peace treaty with Israel but if you continued to read the paragraph, you would notice that I mentioned Egypt. I did go back and correct that little mistake.

Now are you going to read the entire post or are you just going to say that my post is inaccurate because it disagrees with you?

disarm Israel and there will be a new holocaust.

*sarcastically* Oh here we go - the H word.

Thats gotta be the lowest argument defense - oppose Israel and you must be some kind of Nazi?

Isn't this Godwin, indirectly?

Its all well and good saying "They were told to move, but didn't. Its their own fault."

How does one escape the fighting?
On foot?

By car or convoy? With all the damaged roads, highways and bridges? With the seeming pervailing attitude of this:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

Or the fact that travelling by car in South Lebanon is enough to be deemed a target and hit by Helicopter gunship and/or armed drone. The ambulances and aid convoys know this well.

If you move, you get bombed.
If you stay, you get bombed.

They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
So you're saying that since the civilians don't find it easy to escape the fighting area, they should just sit where they are, sipping mint julips until they are shelled?

How stupid is that? Escape on foot, riding a donkey, digging a tunnel. Whatever works.

The point is that Isreal made efforts to warn any civilians in the area to leave, and not be casualities. Show me that effort on Hezzbolahs part or any other terrorists part to warn civilians to not be there when their rockets fall, or when their homicide bombs were going to explode.

This moral relativism is complete crap.

*sarcastically* Oh here we go - the H word.

Thats gotta be the lowest argument defense - oppose Israel and you must be some kind of Nazi?

Isn't this Godwin, indirectly?

What is this Godwin have to do with what I posted? Did you ever hear of the Khartoum Resolution?

If not, here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartoum_Resolution

The conference has affirmed the unity of Arab ranks, the unity of joint action and the need for coordination and for the elimination of all differences. The Kings, Presidents and representatives of the other Arab Heads of State at the conference have affirmed their countries' stand by an implementation of the Arab Solidarity Charter which was signed at the third Arab summit conference in Casablanca.
The conference has agreed on the need to consolidate all efforts to eliminate the effects of the aggression on the basis that the occupied lands are Arab lands and that the burden of regaining these lands falls on all the Arab States.
The Arab Heads of State have agreed to unite their political efforts at the international and diplomatic level to eliminate the effects of the aggression and to ensure the withdrawal of the aggressive Israeli forces from the Arab lands which have been occupied since the aggression of June 5. This will be done within the framework of the main principles by which the Arab States abide, namely, no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it, and insistence on the rights of the Palestinian people in their own country.
The conference of Arab Ministers of Finance, Economy and Oil recommended that suspension of oil pumping be used as a weapon in the battle. However, after thoroughly studying the matter, the summit conference has come to the conclusion that the oil pumping can itself be used as a positive weapon, since oil is an Arab resource which can be used to strengthen the economy of the Arab States directly affected by the aggression, so that these States will be able to stand firm in the battle. The conference has, therefore, decided to resume the pumping of oil, since oil is a positive Arab resource that can be used in the service of Arab goals. It can contribute to the efforts to enable those Arab States which were exposed to the aggression and thereby lost economic resources to stand firm and eliminate the effects of the aggression. The oil-producing States have, in fact, participated in the efforts to enable the States affected by the aggression to stand firm in the face of any economic pressure.
The participants in the conference have approved the plan proposed by Kuwait to set up an Arab Economic and Social Development Fund on the basis of the recommendation of the Baghdad conference of Arab Ministers of Finance, Economy and Oil.
The participants have agreed on the need to adopt the necessary measures to strengthen military preparation to face all eventualities.
The conference has decided to expedite the elimination of foreign bases in the Arab States.

*sarcastically* Oh here we go - the H word.

Thats gotta be the lowest argument defense - oppose Israel and you must be some kind of Nazi?

Isn't this Godwin, indirectly?
No, it reality. Or do you think that Iran, Hezzbolah, Hamas were all just joshing when they said that Isreal should be wiped off the map?

Perhaps, you are thinking that, after Isreal is disarmed and Iran, Syria, etc etc do attack Isreal that a UN peacekeeping force would be able to hold back those entities?

Or perhaps you are thinking "good, bout time".

:rolleyes:

So you're saying that since the civilians don't find it easy to escape the fighting area, they should just sit where they are, sipping mint julips until they are shelled?

How stupid is that? Escape on foot, riding a donkey, digging a tunnel. Whatever works.

The point is that Isreal made efforts to warn any civilians in the area to leave, and not be casualities. Show me that effort on Hezzbolahs part or any other terrorists part to warn civilians to not be there when their rockets fall, or when their homicide bombs were going to explode.

This moral relativism is complete crap.

I agree.I for one would do what ever i had to to get myself and family out of harms way. If that ment walking 100 miles, then that is what I would do, no matter what. They know what was comming and who was/is to blame the terrorists. The civilians could help here, they know who the terrorists are and where they are, so in effect they could give this information to interested people and you know the world would is a better place with each dead terrorist....

If the 'terrorists' delivered little pamphlets saying: "We're going to bomb this area so clear out!" before they carried out their operations, would that put their actions on a par with Israel's?

I do not write for the Sun (which I consider a ridiculous and somewhat laughable publication), but the clichés were intentional. If you're going to do something then you should at least make an effort. That's my motto.

Well, strictly speaking it's pro rege et patria but one can't have everything.

:fluffle:
Please take the politicalcompass.org test
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11461840&postcount=1
You can run a wire over the fence until you get the power on.
Even if you end up on the other side of town, you're good people
:fluffle:

:fluffle:
Please take the politicalcompass.org test
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11461840&postcount=1
You can run a wire over the fence until you get the power on.
Even if you end up on the other side of town, you're good people
:fluffle:


I already have. May I enquire as to why?

So what you are basically saying is that I am wrong regardless of what I post? I made a mistake in regards to Israel signing a peace treaty with Israel but if you continued to read the paragraph, you would notice that I mentioned Egypt. I did go back and correct that little mistake.

Now are you going to read the entire post or are you just going to say that my post is inaccurate because it disagrees with you?

Nope. Anyone here ever admitting a mistake and editing it to correct that mistake is a rare and wonderful thing. I'm deleting my previous post.

I'll read all of your post. Can't do better than that.

No, it reality. Or do you think that Iran, Hezzbolah, Hamas were all just joshing when they said that Isreal should be wiped off the map?

Perhaps, you are thinking that, after Isreal is disarmed and Iran, Syria, etc etc do attack Isreal that a UN peacekeeping force would be able to hold back those entities?

Or perhaps you are thinking "good, bout time".

:rolleyes:
I would be thinking "about damn time". Israel has been a source of instability in the world for the past 50 years, and their capitulation will either lead to a nuclear war and the end of the world, or it will bring stability back to the region.

Also, Israel is capable of fighting "those entities" without a proper army, as was shown in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

To be honest, most of us who would like to see Israel gone do not hate the Jews, but we do hate Zionists and Zionism, because they are stealing land that is righfully Palestinian, and because of the ripple effect that they are causing throughout the world (eg. 9/11).

I already have. May I enquire as to why?

I just have this feeling that when the new map comes out, you and me will be neighbours.
Can't say why exactly. Just ... did anyone else get your joke?
I make terrible jokes, which don't work even with a :D or two.

I just have this feeling that when the new map comes out, you and me will be neighbours.
Can't say why exactly. Just ... did anyone else get your joke?
I make terrible jokes, which don't work even with a :D or two.

My results are in the thread with the links in it if you'd care to view them.


EDIT: Page 14, Post 206

My proof comes from their own officials. Israel has tried to help Palestine get on its feet so that they can declare statehood but you have Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Fatah's militant group) and Hamas (Hamas's militant group) bent on total destruction of the State of Israel. It is hard to get anything accomplished when these two groups attack and kill Israeli civilians and military personel.

Now you have Hezbollah who attacked Israeli soldiers in a cross border attack that resulted in the capturing of 2 Israeli soldiers. The only way peace will have a chance in the region is if the Arab governments, such as Syria, stop supporting terrorist groups.


<stuff which is roughly correct>

In regards to Hezbollah, they were formed to kick Israel out of Lebanon. You know what? Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000. There was no need for Hezbollah to continue their attacks against Israel since they accomplished their goal of forcing Israel to withdraw. So why is Hezbollah still around? Have you noticed that all the other militias disarmed so that peace can reign in Lebanon under a united government? Syria's military is no longer there but I believe that their intelligence group is still in there. We know that Syria is arming Hezbollah since they were founded with Syria's and Iran's help.

<more stuff>


I agree generally with your post, AC.

The bolded passages above are commonly stated here in NSG. I'm going to bed now, but it would be nice if someone could provide a link to some evidence for the "Hezbollah are armed by Syria and Iran" stuff. Clearly they're armed by someone, but CNN saying it's Syria doesn't cut it for me.
Syria has a clear motive for arming Hez, and destabilizing Lebanon. So I wouldn't be surprised to discover evidence of that. But without evidence, I'm sorry, but I for one am not going to be repeating the "Hezbollah armed and supported by Syria" factoid.
Don't anyone bust an artery doing it. I'm for bed.

:) :)

I agree generally with your post, AC.

The bolded passages above are commonly stated here in NSG. I'm going to bed now, but it would be nice if someone could provide a link to some evidence for the "Hezbollah are armed by Syria and Iran" stuff. Clearly they're armed by someone, but CNN saying it's Syria doesn't cut it for me.
Syria has a clear motive for arming Hez, and destabilizing Lebanon. So I wouldn't be surprised to discover evidence of that. But without evidence, I'm sorry, but I for one am not going to be repeating the "Hezbollah armed and supported by Syria" factoid.
Don't anyone bust an artery doing it. I'm for bed.

:) :)

For one, the type of rockets that have been used have ball bearings in it which are only made in Syria and, if you want to believe reports from the IDF, they took out a long range missile that is made in Iran. I will try to find the links for ya.

I agree generally with your post, AC.

The bolded passages above are commonly stated here in NSG. I'm going to bed now, but it would be nice if someone could provide a link to some evidence for the "Hezbollah are armed by Syria and Iran" stuff. Clearly they're armed by someone, but CNN saying it's Syria doesn't cut it for me.
Syria has a clear motive for arming Hez, and destabilizing Lebanon. So I wouldn't be surprised to discover evidence of that. But without evidence, I'm sorry, but I for one am not going to be repeating the "Hezbollah armed and supported by Syria" factoid.
Don't anyone bust an artery doing it. I'm for bed.

:) :)

Nighty Night

So you're saying that since the civilians don't find it easy to escape the fighting area, they should just sit where they are, sipping mint julips until they are shelled?

How stupid is that? Escape on foot, riding a donkey, digging a tunnel. Whatever works.

The point is that Isreal made efforts to warn any civilians in the area to leave, and not be casualities. Show me that effort on Hezzbolahs part or any other terrorists part to warn civilians to not be there when their rockets fall, or when their homicide bombs were going to explode.

This moral relativism is complete crap.
I have already addressed this:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11464291&postcount=73
and
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11464352&postcount=79

The prevailing attitude now is: If its moves in South Lebanon- its fair game.

Why would you want to move on foot in the middle of a warzone? As a civilian myself I don't expect my house to be bombed, but I would expect to be in greater danger wandering in hostile territory.

My results are in the thread with the links in it if you'd care to view them.

EDIT: Page 14, Post 206

EEk! Oh well, if you're ever downtown, there's a bed for you at my place.

(EB: Econ +3.50 Soci +1.18, NH: Econ -4.63 Social -6.05)

For one, the type of rockets that have been used have ball bearings in it which are only made in Syria and, if you want to believe reports from the IDF, they took out a long range missile that is made in Iran. I will try to find the links for ya.


Can't one simply purchase some ball bearings and use them? Additionally, the use of an Iranian-made missile is not proof that the government supports the group.

EEk! Oh well, if you're ever downtown, there's a bed for you at my place.

(EB: Econ +3.50 Soci +1.18, NH: Econ -4.63 Social -6.05)


Where is 'downtown'?

Can't one simply purchase some ball bearings and use them? Additionally, the use of an Iranian-made missile is not proof that the government supports the group.

In regards to the ball bearings, not in this case as they have to be put in during rocket construction and it turns out that it was a Syrian made missile that hit Israel. As to the Iranian missile, if Iran's government is not supporting them (which everyone knows that they are) then where did the missile come from?

Not if we do this properly..Put a multinational peacekeeping force in position in Israel, instead, to make sure that the peace is kept. And make sure it's big enough that Syria doesn't start getting any ideas..


Well thats fucking great. Let some poor Canadian boy take a bullet instead of an Israeli or a Lebonese. Death by proxy is the perfect solution to everything. Shoving a third army in between two warring nations always makes things better. Then they can resent and kill us as much as they do each other.

Can I get a 'HELL NO!'?

In regards to the ball bearings, not in this case as they have to be put in during rocket construction and it turns out that it was a Syrian made missile that hit Israel. As to the Iranian missile, if Iran's government is not supporting them (which everyone knows that they are) then where did the missile come from?
No, the point s/he is making is that merely because the ordinace in manufactured in one country does not imply they are to be held responsible for the use of it by another party at a later stage... which is fair enough.

What small munitions are they using? Kalashnikovs? Does that mean we say Russia and/or PRChina are directly supporting Hezb'allah? No.

However, if it can be shown that Iran is directly supplying Hezb'allah with rockets (not merely making/selling them- like everyone in the arms trade) that is a different story. However, such proof would be hard to come by and be utterly concrete.

In regards to the ball bearings, not in this case as they have to be put in during rocket construction and it turns out that it was a Syrian made missile that hit Israel. As to the Iranian missile, if Iran's government is not supporting them (which everyone knows that they are) then where did the missile come from?


This still does not mean that the governments support the group. I do not know if Iran is supporting Hezbollah. Has the regime ever admitted it?

The American government has admitted to supplying Israel with weapons. That we do know. Are they responsible for the crisis too?

Yes it should. Or perhaps the international community should simply disarm Israel completely, arm Syria to the teeth & look the other way for the next 40 years while the Israelis struggle under Syria's bloody & brutal military occupation.
Come on now, we don't need the Holocaust, part II.

Well they seem to blame the US when Israel uses US made weapons? Shouldn't we do the same?

Not if we do this properly..Put a multinational peacekeeping force in position in Israel, instead, to make sure that the peace is kept. And make sure it's big enough that Syria doesn't start getting any ideas..
Yeah, that'll work. Just like every other peacekeeping effort conducted by the UN.:rolleyes:

Yeah, that'll work. Just like every other peacekeeping effort conducted by the UN.:rolleyes:
Like Namibia... or Cyprus.... or East Timor.....

The EU has warned Israel about disproportionate attacks against Lebanon. In addition spokespersons from the United Nations, the European Union, the Organization of Islamic Conference and an assortment of human rights organizations have condemned Israel for its ‘disproportionate’ response to Hezbollah’s attacks, although unprovoked by Israel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibolonia
Honestly, why should Israel abide by the customs of war there's absolutely no strategic or political advantage in it for them.

Because supposedly this is what separates Good Guys from Bad Guys. :rolleyes:

I am an old-fashioned guy who believes in brutal honesty. If a country is of the opinion that the most effective way to fight an enemy is by adopting its attitudes and methods, then it should have to guts to cease its claims about being Better.

What seperates the "Good Guys" from the "Bad Guys" is whose version of history you read.

The Jewish State exists and has right to defend itself.

The Goverments, Princes and businesses with the money supporting terrorism have the right to spend their money any way they choose.

Those who organize and run terrorist organizations enjoy having power, all humans do.

The people doing the actual fighting are either conscripts and diplaced or disenfranchised people with little to lose and everything to gain by persuing the struggle.

Like Namibia... or Cyprus.... or East Timor.....
Like Korea, Sudan, Congo, the Balkans (where they refused action Angola, etc

Like Korea, Sudan, Congo, the Balkans (where they refused action Angola, etc
You said "Just like every other peacekeeping mission :rolleyes: "

I pointed out three successful ones. Don't be bitter because I proved you wrong. :)

You said "Just like every other peacekeeping mission :rolleyes: "

I pointed out three successful ones. Don't be bitter because I proved you wrong. :)
I will admit there have been a few exceptions, but do you really want to bet the lives of 6 million Jews on it? You can't disarm Israel. I can tell you that Iran wouldn't disarm. They would see a disarmed Israel as a quite tempting target. That bastard Achmendijad (how how ever you spell that name) would see a bunch of unarmed Jews and attack them as a pack of wolves attack an unguarded flock of sheep. It would be another Holocaust.

Any person who uses theory and speculation that the peacekeeping mission might work needs a serious dose of reality.

Isn't the friction between the Israelis and the Arabs?

EDIT: 6 million my foot!

Isn't the friction between the Israelis and the Arabs?

EDIT: 6 million my foot!
There are 6 million Jews in Israel. Leave them unarmed, and they are a tempting target for slaughter.

"Disarm the Arabs and you have peace. Disarm the Jews and there will be another Holocaust."

I will admit there have been a few exceptions, but do you really want to bet the lives of 6 million Jews on it? You can't disarm Israel. I can tell you that Iran wouldn't disarm. They would see a disarmed Israel as a quite tempting target. That bastard Achmendijad (how how ever you spell that name) would see a bunch of unarmed Jews and attack them as a pack of wolves attack an unguarded flock of sheep. It would be another Holocaust.

Any person who uses theory and speculation that the peacekeeping mission might work needs a serious dose of reality.

Uhh. Where did say or allude to anything of the sort?! Disarming Israel is an idiotic thought process. It would also violate Israel's sovereignty as a state. I am utterly opposed to such a measure. It would solve nothing.

There are 6 million Jews in Israel. Leave them unarmed, and they are a tempting target for slaughter.

"Disarm the Arabs and you have peace. Disarm the Jews and there will be another Holocaust."


Why will disarming Arabs bring about peace? Under those circumstances the situation is reversed and we have 6 million slaughtered Arabs. I do not see that persecution in the past gives anyone the moral high-ground in this situation.

EDIT: Nor possible persecution in the future.

Uhh. Where did say or allude to anything of the sort?! Disarming Israel is an idiotic thought process. It would also violate Israel's sovereignty as a state. I am utterly opposed to such a measure. It would solve nothing.
I apologize there. I will say though that a peacekeeping force won't be effective unless they have the ability to go out and actively disarm Hezbollah.

Why will disarming Arabs bring about peace? Under those circumstances the situation is reversed and we have 6 million slaughtered Arabs. I do not see that persecution in the past gives anyone the moral high-ground in this situation.
There wouldn't be any slaughtered Arabs as Israel wouldn't have a reason to fight if they weren't attacked. YOu obviously lack any real knowledge on the history of the Middle East.

I apologize there. I will say though that a peacekeeping force won't be effective unless they have the ability to go out and actively disarm Hezbollah.
S'ok. :)

Yeah I agree with that too.

There wouldn't be any slaughtered Arabs as Israel wouldn't have a reason to fight if they weren't attacked. YOu obviously lack any real knowledge on the history of the Middle East.


Why not disarm both sides and leave it at that? Why must only one be disarmed?

Why not disarm both sides and leave it at that? Why must only one be disarmed?
When one side is outnumbered 300 million to 6 million, then you will still have slaughter.

The Jews have only acted in response to attacks. The Arabs have started wars. That's why one side should be disarmed.

S'ok. :)

Yeah I agree with that too.
Did Hell freeze over?:)

There are 6 million Jews in Israel. Leave them unarmed, and they are a tempting target for slaughter.

"Disarm the Arabs and you have peace. Disarm the Jews and there will be another Holocaust."Or perhaps: "Disarm the Jews and you'll end the armed oppression of a whole people & prevent a massacre on another people. Disarm the Arabs & you'll prevent them from doing what the Jews are doing."


I guess I'll be labeled an anti-semite again... So be it. Don't worry though. I'll still defend Israel's right to exist. I'm just a bit tired of Israelis whining about people wanting to kill them, just because they're tyranical military oppressors, thieves & mass-murderers. Somehow just doesn't make me sympathise any more than when Hezbollah whines about Israel's very existence.

Different assholes, same shit.

Laisser-faire everybody, laisser-faire.

Leave them to bomb the hell out of each other. Then, when they realise that no one actually gives a monkey's they'll just pack it up and go away.

OR

They'll keep going until one of them wins.


It's too much trouble.

Or perhaps: "Disarm the Jews and you'll end the armed oppression of a whole people & prevent a massacre on another people. Disarm the Arabs & you'll prevent them from doing what the Jews are doing."


I guess I'll be labeled an anti-semite again... So be it. Don't worry though. I'll still defend Israel's right to exist. I'm just a bit tired of Israelis whining about people wanting to kill them, just because they're tyranical military oppressors, thieves & mass-murderers. Somehow just doesn't make me sympathise any more than when Hezbollah whines about Israel's very existence.

Different assholes, same shit.The Palestinians are more victims of other Arabs than anything. From 1948-1967, they were prisoners of Egypt and Jordan (kept locked up and given nothing except indoctrination.) The Israelis were prepared to completely pull out and give the Palestinians a state. The Camp David Accords failed though because Arafat walked away from a deal that gave him 97% of what he wanted (including East Jerusalem).

The Israelis pulled out of Gaza last year and were preparing for a similar pullout in the West Bank. The Palestinians responded by electing a a terrorist group to head their government. Any repreuccusions are the fault of their own actions.

The fact is the Arabs have tried on numerous occasions to wipe the Jews out. The War of Independence would've been the death of every Jew in Israel had the Arabs won. Same with every other war (especially the Yom Kippur War).

Did Hell freeze over?:)
:D LMAO!

Hell, and it would have been easier for Hamas and Hez to simply not lob rockets into Israel....

Just pointing out the obvious. If you don't want open war, you can start by not lobbing rockets into Haifa,and Israel, and then by not hiding in cities like mice.

The Palestinians are more victims of other Arabs than anything. From 1948-1967, they were prisoners of Egypt and Jordan (kept locked up and given nothing except indoctrination.) The Israelis were prepared to completely pull out and give the Palestinians a state. The Camp David Accords failed though because Arafat walked away from a deal that gave him 97% of what he wanted (including East Jerusalem).

The Israelis pulled out of Gaza last year and were preparing for a similar pullout in the West Bank. The Palestinians responded by electing a a terrorist group to head their government. Any repreuccusions are the fault of their own actions.

The fact is the Arabs have tried on numerous occasions to wipe the Jews out. The War of Independence would've been the death of every Jew in Israel had the Arabs won. Same with every other war (especially the Yom Kippur War).

NO WAY!

:rolleyes:

The hypocrisy of the terror apologists is deafening.

Hey IDF, join the Jew Crew

NO WAY!

:rolleyes:

The hypocrisy of the terror apologists is deafening.

Hey IDF, join the Jew Crew
Your argument is incredibly convincing. I like the lack of buzzwords, too.

I've just realised something!

Britain isn't flogging weapons to both sides like she used to! What the hell is going on here? We should be taking advantage of this most lucrative of trades.

Seriously, Israels campaign has to end right now. The disarment of Hezbollah can be worked out after ceasefire. Even Rice wants a ceasefire now, after the news that up to 60 civilians had been killed in an airstrike in Qana.
Atleast 20 children are among the victims.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-30T092406Z_01_L30601514_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-RICE-QANA.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C2-TopNews-newsOne-2
http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?catid=138&newsid=93144&ch=0
Nope, the battle needs to continue until Hezbolla surrenders, unconditionally. When has a treaty with Israel ever been honored by the Arab signers?

When has a treaty with Israel ever been honored by the Arab signers?1979 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Egypt_Peace_Treaty) and 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Jordan_Treaty_of_Peace).

1979 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Egypt_Peace_Treaty) and 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Jordan_Treaty_of_Peace).
Of course, the first was because Egypt was tired of getting it's ass beat. I don't remember the motivation for the second, but it was surely something similar that motivated Jordan to do the same.

Yes it should. Or perhaps the international community should simply disarm Israel completely, arm Syria to the teeth & look the other way for the next 40 years while the Israelis struggle under Syria's bloody & brutal military occupation.

I'm getting a bit tired of this inverse cause-effect relationship. It's insane.

Personally, I'm getting tired of the whole world being held hostage by a bunch of assholes fighting over-- and let's cut right through it-- religion. The Isrealis feel entitled to the inhospitable little spit of sand and rock they live on because of religion, certain powerful backers in the West prop them up out of some belief that the end of the world (whoohoo, boy o boy are we ever eager for THAT) won't "happen right" unless a supposedly all-knowing, all-powerful deity doesn't find the Jews in Isreal at the right time (because it's not like you or I can find a good number of Jewish people with a New York City phonebook). Oh, and there's the guilt; we do feel rightly guilty for turning away Jewish people fleeing the Nazis. And on the other side are a bunch of Arabs, who were displaced from their homes when we decided to give away the land they were living on and have since found solace in religiosity, selling themselves on some notion that because one imam or another says so, their committing murder will be rewarded in the afterlife and that they'll find favour with their all-knowing, all-powerful deity.

Frankly, I wish an alien mothership would appear in the sky above the middle-East, afford everyone 72 hrs to get the hell out of dodge (so that only those stupid or crazy enough to welcome *certain death* for some fucking real-estate would suffer the consequences), and then turn the Holy Land into the Great Big Gaping Hole Land. Let the Jewish people and the Muslim people live anywhere else in the world they want to, but turn that fucking *place* into plate-glass and ionised plasma. Ruin it for everyone so people can get their goddamned priorities straight. The idea of a religious state in a world of dissolving nationalities and borders is retarded anyway-- and that *is* what Isreal is: a religious state. Not a racial one, because even if 'race' weren't a fallacy (which it is, because there's only one human race), belonging to the Jewish faith wouldn't make you a member of a Jewish race. It's *all* about religion; backwards, superstitious, self-affirming-in-the-face-of-ignorance-and-fear-of-the-horrible-gaping-sky, human-constructed religion. "My God is better than your God." And people kill over it. It's fucking stupid. Where is the mothership-- sonofabitch, I want the freaking mothership right now. I'm converting my freakin' satellite dish right now!

Nope, the battle needs to continue until Hezbolla surrenders, unconditionally. When has a treaty with Israel ever been honored by the Arab signers?

Yep.

The loss of Civilian life is bad, but you can stop it from happening down the road on both sides by pressing on Hezz until they break now.

I've just realised something!

Britain isn't flogging weapons to both sides like she used to! What the hell is going on here? We should be taking advantage of this most lucrative of trades.

Hehe, we got you guys beat there. Saw a shipment of Rock river arms CAR-15 rifles that were bound for JORDAN! Of all places! JORDAN!

I don't think anyone wants the L85 ;)

Of course, the first was because Egypt was tired of getting it's ass beat. I don't remember the motivation for the second, but it was surely something similar that motivated Jordan to do the same.

They finnaly realized Israel was here to STAY.

Now, the Palistinians didn't get the memo, nor did a few others.

Hehe, we got you guys beat there. Saw a shipment of Rock river arms CAR-15 rifles that were bound for JORDAN! Of all places! JORDAN!

I don't think anyone wants the L85 ;)


The British sold both sides weapons during the American Civil War. I find that quite touching. Made a fortune too. That's what paid for Cragside: blood money!

Of course, the first was because Egypt was tired of getting it's ass beat. I don't remember the motivation for the second, but it was surely something similar that motivated Jordan to do the same.And what does that have to do with it? You asked when have Arab nations honored agreements and I gave you two long-lasting examples.

Hehe, we got you guys beat there. Saw a shipment of Rock river arms CAR-15 rifles that were bound for JORDAN! Of all places! JORDAN!I suppose if you knew what Jordan was, you wouldn't be saying that. ;)

The Palestinians are more victims of other Arabs than anything. From 1948-1967, they were prisoners of Egypt and Jordan (kept locked up and given nothing except indoctrination.)More victims? Are you on crack? They fled, and there was nowhere nice to go. There still aren't any places for them to go, and those that haven't fled to refugee hell are now living under a horrendously brutal military occupation, by a forign country that obviously has no other agenda than to displace the remaining population, annexing their territory & stealing everything they've ever had. Hell, you've all but accomplished it already.

And still you whine when they defend themselves from your fucked up regime...The Israelis were prepared to completely pull out and give the Palestinians a state. The Camp David Accords failed though because Arafat walked away from a deal that gave him 97% of what he wanted (including East Jerusalem).Yea, because cutting their country into fragments & maintaining control over all resources & practically all infrastructure, is clearly a great deal. The Camp David Accords were a sham. It was nothing but a way for Israel to try to legitimise their annexing the occupied territories, and you know it. No sane person would ever have agreed to that enslavement deal, you least of all if the roles were reversed.The Israelis pulled out of Gaza last year and were preparing for a similar pullout in the West Bank. The Palestinians responded by electing a a terrorist group to head their government. Any repreuccusions are the fault of their own actions.No. You can't even talk abour reprecussions. The Palestinians democratically elected a resistance movement as their government, presumably because no negotiations are possible with Israel. That you hold them responsible for trying to somehow respond to your enlsavement of an entire peoples & the theft of all their lands and resources, is nothing short of evil.

They have every right to defend themselves from your enslavement, by whatever means necessary. Our resistance fighters fought against the Nazi overlords. They fight against the Israeli overlords. The only significant difference is their use of suicide bombers, but then.. We didn't suffer a brutal occupation for more than 5 years, and really.. The Nazi occupation of my country wasn't half as brutal.The fact is the Arabs have tried on numerous occasions to wipe the Jews out. The War of Independence would've been the death of every Jew in Israel had the Arabs won. Same with every other war (especially the Yom Kippur War).So.. I suppose that gives you the right to do the same to at least one, and apparently soon two countries (yea, one's not a soverign country because of you) that poses no threat to you?

You're cracked mate.Personally, I'm getting tired of the whole world being held hostage by a bunch of assholes fighting over-- and let's cut right through it-- religion.I'm starting to agree with that mothership idea, but I'm one of those evil atheists too so I guess I would. I'm wondering though, why is it so hard for Israel to hand over control of the occupied territories & Jerusalem to the UN? And why is it so hard not to go on random killingsprees, instead of staying put behind their own damn borders?

Why all this murder, theft & oppression? Pent up aggro from WWII or what? Do you think you're America or the old British Empire? Seriously, what the fuck is your malfunction?

EDIT: DM, don't bother calling me a nazi-anti-semite-Hezbollah-terrorist-anti-American-blah.. I'm fully aware how you'll percieve this post, and if it concerned mke I would have kept my opinions to myself. So, don't waste your energy.

And what does that have to do with it? You asked when have Arab nations honored agreements and I gave you two long-lasting examples.
Actually it has a lot to do with it. If my premise is correct, then the Arabs must make a treaty out of weakness for it to hold. That's why the Lebanese and Hezbolla must be beaten so bad that they surrender before a treaty is brokered.

Actually it has a lot to do with it. If my premise is correct, then the Arabs must make a treaty out of weakness for it to hold. That's why the Lebanese and Hezbolla must be beaten so bad that they surrender before a treaty is brokered.The Lebanese weren't & aren't fighting Israel, they're just getting slaughtered by them. Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation & thus the only effect war can have on them, is to make them grow stronger.

If you want Hezbollah to cease its terrorist activities, pit it against those it isn't willing to fight & give it a non-violent avenue to work towards its goals. IIRC that's the only way in which terrorist organisations have ever been defeated inside the last century.

The Palestinians democratically elected a resistance movement as their government, presumably because no negotiations are possible with Israel. That you hold them responsible

When you put bomb a nightclub you are not a freedom fighter, or a resistance movement.

You are terrorists, simple.

When you intentionally target civilians for no other purpose than to kill civilians you are a terrorist. Simple

Hamas is a terrorist organization, and to say that they are somehow to be held not responsible for their actions because they were elected is assinine. The fact that they were elected makes it even WORSE. This wasn't a decision forces on the palestinian people, they didn't attempt to distance themselves from it. They INTENTIONALLY ELECTED a terrorist group to their government. That makes them VERY responsible for the reprocussions of that choice.

And one reprocussion when you elect an organization that has attempted to destroy another nation state is that this nationstate will eventually get fed up with the attempts and take you out.

They chose to elect a TERRORIST organization that carries out attacks on israel, then whines when Israel says "enough is enough, and we're not going to allow you to continue this".

Which is exactly what's happening in Lebanon right now. You can't elect to power the enemy of a bordering nation, allow that enemy to continue attacks on that bordering nation, then cry foul when that nation gets fed up and takes matters into their own hands.

Actions merit concequences. And if the palestinian people, and the lebanese people, did not want to live with the concequences of empowering terrorists...then they bloody well shouldn't have empowered terrorists, now should they?

The Lebanese weren't & aren't fighting Israel, they're just getting slaughtered by them. Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation & thus the only effect war can have on them, is to make them grow stronger.


Or, you kill every one of them. And you make the penalty for conducting terrorism against Israel so god damned high that nobody will think of doing it, lest they and everyone they care about die as a concequence.

There are two ways to stop terrorism. Give in to them, or make the penalty for it so high that nobody will do it.

Actually it has a lot to do with it. If my premise is correct, then the Arabs must make a treaty out of weakness for it to hold. That's why the Lebanese and Hezbolla must be beaten so bad that they surrender before a treaty is brokered.

Exactly, any agreement entered before that point will be broken the minute they think it viable to do so. History has held that to be true. The only time for an agreement by these terrorist organizations to hold is that if they are shown that their only options are honor it, or face extinction.

why is it so hard for Israel to hand over control of the occupied territories & Jerusalem to the UN?

One good argument would be that if you wage a war against an enemy, and lose, and you suffer a loss of territory for that hubris, then that loss of territory is punishment for your actions.

Why should Israel give over their "occupied" territories until they are good and ready, they are spoils of war, taken from an enemy that thought they could win, but lost.

If the 6 day war, or the yom kippur war had gone differently, and Israel had been conquered, you think ANY of those nations would be quick to give up THEIR "occupied" territories of Israel? Of course not.

You can't set the rules to your own liking then whine when your enemy beats you at your own game and forces you to play by them.

The Lebanese weren't & aren't fighting Israel, they're just getting slaughtered by them. Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation & thus the only effect war can have on them, is to make them grow stronger.

If you want Hezbollah to cease its terrorist activities, pit it against those it isn't willing to fight & give it a non-violent avenue to work towards its goals. IIRC that's the only way in which terrorist organisations have ever been defeated inside the last century.
I don't have a bit of sympathy for the Lebanese. Fuad what's his name has only encouraged and protected the Hezbolla inside of Lebanon. You reap what you sow.

I don't have a bit of sympathy for the Lebanese. Fuad what's his name has only encouraged and protected the Hezbolla inside of Lebanon. You reap what you sow.

The fact is, to try and seperate Lebanon and Hezbollah is not nearly the clean line people think it is. Hezbollah was elected to seats in Parliament, the president praised their actions on television, there were celebrations in the streets when the soldiers were captured.

Hezbollah has been supported by a great number of people in Lebanon, and not one tiny shred of action has ever been taken against them. They have been supported both explicitly, and implicitly by their continued, unhampered existance.

To say now that Lebanon doesn't support Hezbollah, or is not very linked to Hezbollah, is a denial of facts.

When you put bomb a nightclub you are not a freedom fighter, or a resistance movement.

You are terrorists, simple. Is this true if you leave boobytraps on schoolroads during weekdays? If so, you're terrorists too.


When you intentionally target civilians for no other purpose than to kill civilians you are a terrorist. SimpleDoes "targeting civilians for no other purpose than to kill civilians" apply to IDF troops excecuting 13 year old schoolgirls with extreme prejudice, for example?

Hamas is a terrorist organization, and to say that they are somehow to be held not responsible for their actions because they were elected is assinine. The fact that they were elected makes it even WORSE. This wasn't a decision forces on the palestinian people, they didn't attempt to distance themselves from it. They INTENTIONALLY ELECTED a terrorist group to their government. That makes them VERY responsible for the reprocussions of that choice.Yea well, when negotiations aren't preventing the military oppressors from killing & looting, then what the hell's one supposed to do? Of all the people in the world, I would have thought you'd be the first to understand their dilemma, given your stance on Hezbollah. Don't try to pass your occupation off as some excercise in benevolence. You're murderes, stealing, killing & preventing them from doing anything constructive, let alone negotiating with you or fighting back. Inj short: you are hell.

Besides, your rant applies equally to your own government & most of your political parties. The lot of them engage in the same activities that makes you call Hamas terrorists. The only difference is that you have one of the most powerful armies in the world to carry out your terrorist activities, so your government don't need to get their hands dirty themselves.

And one reprocussion when you elect an organization that has attempted to destroy another nation state is that this nationstate will eventually get fed up with the attempts and take you out.Are you saying the Palestinians should blow up Knesset?

They chose to elect a TERRORIST organization that carries out attacks on israel, then whines when Israel says "enough is enough, and we're not going to allow you to continue this".By Israel, you mean the territories you've illegally annexed at gunpoint, against the international agreements you yourselves have signed - right?

Which is exactly what's happening in Lebanon right now. You can't elect to power the enemy of a bordering nation, allow that enemy to continue attacks on that bordering nation, then cry foul when that nation gets fed up and takes matters into their own hands.Fuck that. You didn't even try alternative solutions before you went in gun's blazing. Hezbollah & Lebanon are two seperate things & you damn well know it. If the PA allied with Iran & Iran actually had the balls, would you think it appropriate if they launched an all-out war on the civilian Israeli population, because a bunch of fundamentalist colonizers in the illegally occupied territories decided to Kell themselves a few o' those darn backwards heathen Moslem slaves?

I'm guessing you wouldn't consider that a reasonable response, even though your fundy nutjobs goes a killin' on a regular basis.

Actions merit concequences. And if the palestinian people, and the lebanese people, did not want to live with the concequences of empowering terrorists...then they bloody well shouldn't have empowered terrorists, now should they?You're right. Actions merit consequences. And if the peoples of Israel didn't want to suffer regular counter-attacks, however pathetic they are, they shouldn't have elected terrorists to run their country & armed forces. You made your bed. Don't whine when you have to lie in it.

Or, you kill every one of them. And you make the penalty for conducting terrorism against Israel so god damned high that nobody will think of doing it, lest they and everyone they care about die as a concequence.

There are two ways to stop terrorism. Give in to them, or make the penalty for it so high that nobody will do it.And your people survived the Holocaust.. You don't have long memories, do you?

There's one way to stop terrorism. Give them an alternative. Nobody likes people who kills for the simple reason that they can. If terrorist organisations have any other avenue, they will eventually be forced to take it, or cease to have any members & any communities that'll tolerate their existance.

You can't give in to them and you can't kill them all. If you dropped nukes on Lebanon, the only things that would survive would be Hezbollah & geckos. Genocide doesn't work, nor does collective punishment. Hitler tried it too. It made the resistance groups flourish & gain support in the communities. By all accounts, the same thing is happening in Lebanon now.

This still does not mean that the governments support the group. I do not know if Iran is supporting Hezbollah. Has the regime ever admitted it?

It is a very well known fact that Syria and Iran fund and support Hezbollah. Why do you think we want Syria to tell Hezbollah to knock off their attacks?

No, the point s/he is making is that merely because the ordinace in manufactured in one country does not imply they are to be held responsible for the use of it by another party at a later stage... which is fair enough.

So you are in essence saying that Syria is not funding Hezbollah or supports them? If that is the case then I would love to see where you are getting that information.

However, if it can be shown that Iran is directly supplying Hezb'allah with rockets (not merely making/selling them- like everyone in the arms trade) that is a different story. However, such proof would be hard to come by and be utterly concrete.

As I said, it was only a report.

It is a very well known fact that Syria and Iran fund and support Hezbollah. Why do you think we want Syria to tell Hezbollah to knock off their attacks?


Sources?

The British sold both sides weapons during the American Civil War.

Linky please.

thats definately true

Allhengy Country can you give me a link of Syria and Iran selling weapons?

ONe thing people either don't get, or refuse to acknowledge about Hezbollah.

Hezbollah was formed as an antioccupation militia during the time of the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon. In their earlier days their purpose was to drive the israeli military out of lebanon, and end the occupation.

They restricted their attacks, primarily, to military targets within Lebanon. Now, without getting into a debate about whether the occupation was justified or not, I am willing to conceed that if your nation is occupied, using force against military targets taking part in that occupation is a legitimate use of force for the purpose of resistance. I will not call that terrorism. That is freedom fighting, it is anti occupation, and it is a legitimate use of force. Hezbollah began as a legitimate resistance militia.

However the occupation is over. It's been over for nearly 7 years. Hezbollah won, they got what they wanted. They SHOULD have disarmed, they SHOULD have stopped their attacks. They didn't. They continued to strap bombs to 14 year old girls, they continued to launch rockets across the border, they continued to kidnap israeli soldiers in cross border raids.

Hezbollah got what they wanted, but they didn't go away. THey continued their aggression, and displayed their true motives, not to end occupation, as the occupation is over, but just simply to kill more jews. And the lebanese government did nothing to stop it, and in fact supported it.

Even though their roots may have been legitimate, they became a terrorist organization, and Israel has the right to defend themselves against terrorist organizations, which includes destroying them, those that aid them, and the methods by which they receive aid.

Is this true if you leave boobytraps on schoolroads during weekdays? If so, you're terrorists too.


Does "targeting civilians for no other purpose than to kill civilians" apply to IDF troops excecuting 13 year old schoolgirls with extreme prejudice, for example?

Kahanist apologists alwayse use intention as an excuse to justify the civilian casualties. As long as the bomb or gun wasn't aimed directly aimed at the civilians, it's okay if the blast radius or ricochet kills them. On the other hand, it's funny how they keep calling Israeli casualties "civilians" when there's a state-mandated period of military service required of Israeli citizens.

Israel is taking cue from its welfare benefactor the United States and is playing up the Uncle Jimbo Doctrine.

Yea well, when negotiations aren't preventing the military oppressors from killing & looting, then what the hell's one supposed to do? Of all the people in the world, I would have thought you'd be the first to understand their dilemma, given your stance on Hezbollah. Don't try to pass your occupation off as some excercise in benevolence. You're murderes, stealing, killing & preventing them from doing anything constructive, let alone negotiating with you or fighting back. Inj short: you are hell.

Besides, your rant applies equally to your own government & most of your political parties. The lot of them engage in the same activities that makes you call Hamas terrorists. The only difference is that you have one of the most powerful armies in the world to carry out your terrorist activities, so your government don't need to get their hands dirty themselves.

What's never mentioned is that the Palestinians elected Hamas because Fatah was notorious for corruption and that the extremist group ran on a platform of reform and social assistance. If Fatah wasn't such a bunch of corrupt fucks, why the hell would the Palestinians elect a bunch of terrorists in the first place?

Are you saying the Palestinians should blow up Knesset?

Of course not. He's pleading Special Exception. If Israel takes out one of its neighbors it's "Self Defense" but if those countries respond just as Israel would, it's "Terrrorism."

By Israel, you mean the territories you've illegally annexed at gunpoint, against the international agreements you yourselves have signed - right?

See my comment on why Hamas was really elected as a response to his line. Also, Israel is acting like the snotnosed bitch who happens to kiss up to the neighborhood bully and knows it.

Fuck that. You didn't even try alternative solutions before you went in gun's blazing. Hezbollah & Lebanon are two seperate things & you damn well know it. If the PA allied with Iran & Iran actually had the balls, would you think it appropriate if they launched an all-out war on the civilian Israeli population, because a bunch of fundamentalist colonizers in the illegally occupied territories decided to Kell themselves a few o' those darn backwards heathen Moslem slaves?

I'm guessing you wouldn't consider that a reasonable response, even though your fundy nutjobs goes a killin' on a regular basis.

Israel also loves to heap unrealistic expectations on its neighbors while undermining their capabilities to fulfill those expectations at the same time.

You're right. Actions merit consequences. And if the peoples of Israel didn't want to suffer regular counter-attacks, however pathetic they are, they shouldn't have elected terrorists to run their country & armed forces. You made your bed. Don't whine when you have to lie in it.

This is the start of what I see as Israel overextending itself.

And your people survived the Holocaust.. You don't have long memories, do you?

There's one way to stop terrorism. Give them an alternative. Nobody likes people who kills for the simple reason that they can. If terrorist organisations have any other avenue, they will eventually be forced to take it, or cease to have any members & any communities that'll tolerate their existance.

You can't give in to them and you can't kill them all. If you dropped nukes on Lebanon, the only things that would survive would be Hezbollah & geckos. Genocide doesn't work, nor does collective punishment. Hitler tried it too. It made the resistance groups flourish & gain support in the communities. By all accounts, the same thing is happening in Lebanon now.

They only remember the Holocaust to be their No Limit Credit Card to spend on whatever the hell they want to do. It's also a classic case of child abuse. Everyone in history from the Egyptians all the way to the Nazis heaped shit on them, and now they want to have fun beating the shit out of someone who can't stand up to them properly.

why is it so hard for Israel to hand over control of the occupied territories & Jerusalem to the UN?

Well under a UN resolution, Jerusalem was supposed to be an International City opened to everyone. However, 5 arab states decided that it should not be open and decided to take matters into their own hands and lost.

So you are in essence saying that Syria is not funding Hezbollah or supports them? If that is the case then I would love to see where you are getting that information.



As I said, it was only a report.

You mentioned Iran not Syria. You said 'Iranian missile'.

Big deal. Are you going to go after Russia because Hezb'allah use Kalashnikovs? No.

The arms trade sucks- but that what it is. Funding or supplying weapons for free =/= selling weapons to any and all who want them.

Kahanist apologists alwayse use intention as an excuse to justify the civilian casualties. As long as the bomb or gun wasn't aimed directly aimed at the civilians, it's okay if the blast radius or ricochet kills them. On the other hand, it's funny how they keep calling Israeli casualties "civilians" when there's a state-mandated period of military service required of Israeli citizens.If they're not in uniform and not engaged in a covert military operation, they're civilians.

Everyone in history from the Egyptians all the way to the Nazis heaped shit on them, and now they want to have fun beating the shit out of someone who can't stand up to them properly.

Who fired the first rocket? Who kidnapped the soldiers? Wasn't Israel, I promise you that.

Moreover, although you miss the point with the Holocaust reference, there is one to be made there. Two words define the Israeli experience post WWII, "never again". Never again allow their people to be systematically wiped out like that, and if anyone tries, destroy them.

Who fired the first rocket? Who kidnapped the soldiers? Wasn't Israel, I promise you that.

Moreover, although you miss the point with the Holocaust reference, there is one to be made there. Two words define the Israeli experience post WWII, "never again". Never again allow their people to be systematically wiped out like that, and if anyone tries, destroy them.

In any game someone makes the first move. That, however, doesn't mean that all ethics go out the window -- unless you're one of those people that believes "all's fair in love and war" (a Dick Cheney type). Nice fallacy following that with your reference to the holocaust. The liklihood that hezbollah -- or, for that matter, anyone in the Middle East -- could bring about a holocaust type scenario is so low given Israel's military capabilities. Indeed the holocaust was against the Jews, this is about protecting Israeli citizens. This distinction is important to remember as states think differently than religions.

In any game someone makes the first move. That, however, doesn't mean that all ethics go out the window -- unless you're one of those people that believes "all's fair in love and war" (a Dick Cheney type). Nice fallacy following that with your reference to the holocaust. The liklihood that hezbollah -- or, for that matter, anyone in the Middle East -- could bring about a holocaust type scenario is so low given Israel's military capabilities. Indeed the holocaust was against the Jews, this is about protecting Israeli citizens. This distinction is important to remember as states think differently than religions.

There's also the missed irony of people who brag about Israel being able to take out all its neighbors on its own then going around to whine like every Israeli is going to be subject to a Zyklon-B shower if the country's not allowed to bomb the shit out of Lebanese children.

Its an interesting fact that now over 80% of Lebanese christians support Hezbollah, unlike in previous conflicts.
Israel has made a huge mistake, they have lost a lot of international credibility, and now they have only made themselves more enemies, Hezbollah will come out of this stronger.
Yes, they may have lost some of their weapons, and so on, but they will re-arm, and be stronger than ever, and only Israel is to blame.
And I wonder where you go your information on this one. Could it be you just pulled a number out of your arse or will you provide us with the sources?

Now, frankly I don't want to see Israel stop. They are an important part of the War on Terror by making our combined enemies pop out of the water, and like in Blade we give them the guns and they use them against our foes. The enemies Israel is fighting overtly (Hezbollah) and covertly (Iranian, Syrian, and Lebanese money and advisors) are also out to get America. And here's my sources: Global Defense, a few friends who are on the inside as contractors and retired military, independent research and interpretation of satellite photos, and a few taks with my friends who do the same.

In any game someone makes the first move. That, however, doesn't mean that all ethics go out the window -- unless you're one of those people that believes "all's fair in love and war" (a Dick Cheney type). Nice fallacy following that with your reference to the holocaust. The liklihood that hezbollah -- or, for that matter, anyone in the Middle East -- could bring about a holocaust type scenario is so low given Israel's military capabilities. Indeed the holocaust was against the Jews, this is about protecting Israeli citizens. This distinction is important to remember as states think differently than religions.

I think if you're going to talk about the Holocaust, it is important to talk about the mindset that the Holocaust has fostered. Hezbollah cant do it, of course, but in still the living memory of many jews people recognize that if nations like Britain, America, the Soviet Union had stood up to German aggression in the first place, we all would have never fallen down the slippery slope.

That's the point of it. It's to stop that first step, that first moment, that first point where you give in to the enemy and allow them to grow stronger, THAT is the fear, that is the concern. That if you don't stand up to Hezbollah today it will be Iran tomorrow, and the whole Middle East the next day. Rationale or not, history has enforced that idea in many of the jewish people. And while Israel is not the same as "the jewish people", to suggest that the history, and mindset, of many jews across the globe is not played out in the actions of Israel is to be somewhat disconnected from the true reality.

thats definately true

Allhengy Country can you give me a link of Syria and Iran selling weapons?

This doesn't deal with weapons but shows that they do receive funding from Iran. Hezbollah's strength was enhanced by the dispatching of one thousand[32] to fifteen hundred[33] members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and the financial backing of Iran. (wikipedia article on Hezbollah)

This does deals with weapons: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13964258/

Growing arsenal
Other estimates suggest that the supply of rockets rose to 10,000 this year. That includes some Iranian-made rockets with a range of perhaps as much as 45 miles, but the vast majority — the Katyusha-type rockets — have a range of less than 20 miles.

It all depends on who you want to believe. I am not saying one is right over the other but it comes down to what is more likely.

I think if you're going to talk about the Holocaust, it is important to talk about the mindset that the Holocaust has fostered. Hezbollah cant do it, of course, but in still the living memory of many jews people recognize that if nations like Britain, America, the Soviet Union had stood up to German aggression in the first place, we all would have never fallen down the slippery slope.

That's the point of it. It's to stop that first step, that first moment, that first point where you give in to the enemy and allow them to grow stronger, THAT is the fear, that is the concern. That if you don't stand up to Hezbollah today it will be Iran tomorrow, and the whole Middle East the next day. Rationale or not, history has enforced that idea in many of the jewish people. And while Israel is not the same as "the jewish people", to suggest that the history, and mindset, of many jews across the globe is not played out in the actions of Israel is to be somewhat disconnected from the true reality.

The Holocaust Part Deux argument loses its edge when you take into the fact that Israel is the strongest military man for man in the region and has access to technology and training much more advanced than their Arab neighbors. The Jews who were persecuted and murdered were almost all defenseless in comparison.

Again it goes back to the people who laugh and brag about Israel being able to wipe the floor with "the ragheads" whining about how there would be Zyklon-B shower stalls in Tel Aviv if they aren't allowed to bomb the shit out of Arab nations that apparently can't stand up to the superior Israeli military in the first place.

You mentioned Iran not Syria. You said 'Iranian missile'.

It was reported that an Iranian made missile was destroyed on the ground. There's also a report that the missile used in the Israeli ship attack was also Iranian made as well.

Some of the rockets that landed in Israel had to be Syrian made because they are the only ones who use that type of rocket.

The arms trade sucks- but that what it is. Funding or supplying weapons for free =/= selling weapons to any and all who want them.

Who says that Hezbollah is actually buying these weapons?

There's also the missed irony of people who brag about Israel being able to take out all its neighbors on its own then going around to whine like every Israeli is going to be subject to a Zyklon-B shower if the country's not allowed to bomb the shit out of Lebanese children.

I don't understand as I lack a sense of humour in relation to important things.

It was reported that an Iranian made missile was destroyed on the ground. There's also a report that the missile used in the Israeli ship attack was also Iranian made as well. Some of the rockets that landed in Israel had to be Syrian made because they are the only ones who use that type of rocket.

Ok, again i'm going to say this: merely because the ordinance is manufactured in one country does not imply they are to be held responsible for the use of it by another party at a later stage. America, Russia and China are some of the biggest arms exporters. Are you blaming them for the conflicts that use their guns or bullets? No.

We do not hold the manufacturers responsible for the buyers actions. Iran very well may have sold weapons to them. We do not blame the US for this mess purely because the IDF uses their missiles. You get the point now?


Who says that Hezbollah is actually buying these weapons?
Who says they're not?

I think if you're going to talk about the Holocaust, it is important to talk about the mindset that the Holocaust has fostered. Hezbollah cant do it, of course, but in still the living memory of many jews people recognize that if nations like Britain, America, the Soviet Union had stood up to German aggression in the first place, we all would have never fallen down the slippery slope.

That's the point of it. It's to stop that first step, that first moment, that first point where you give in to the enemy and allow them to grow stronger, THAT is the fear, that is the concern. That if you don't stand up to Hezbollah today it will be Iran tomorrow, and the whole Middle East the next day. Rationale or not, history has enforced that idea in many of the jewish people. And while Israel is not the same as "the jewish people", to suggest that the history, and mindset, of many jews across the globe is not played out in the actions of Israel is to be somewhat disconnected from the true reality.

You may be right, but it is an empirical question that I can't answer. Prima Facie, I don't think that Israel has much to worry about in terms of war -- mean in a game theoretic sense -- as they could wipe out anyone, including Iran, if need be. The Israelies shoule be confident that the U.S. and probably Britain would come to their aid if needs be.

Ok, again i'm going to say this: merely because the ordinance is manufactured in one country does not imply they are to be held responsible for the use of it by another party at a later stage. America, Russia and China are some of the biggest arms exporters. Are you blaming them for the conflicts that use their guns or bullets? No.

We do not hold the manufacturers responsible for the buyers actions. Iran very well may have sold weapons to them. We do not blame the US for this mess purely because the IDF uses their missiles. You get the point now?

There is no need for you to get angry about reports showing that Iran and Syria are supplying Hezbollah with weapons. All I am doing is stating what is reported. There is no need to get hostile with me. If you have to get hostile with someone, then be hostile at the media for they are the ones reporting it.

I would not be surprised at all if Syria and Iran are supplying Hezbollah with munitions however.

I don't understand as I lack a sense of humour in relation to important things.

Basically the hardline extremist Israeli supporters (I call them Kahanists since they well as might be) are basically trying to have their cake and eat as well with two paradoxical beliefs.

One, that the Israeli military is the best in the Middle East and that they can soundly crush the military of their Middle Eastern neighbors combined without breaking much of a sweat.

Two, that if Israel isn't allowed to continue its excessive behavior of collective punishment and disregard for collateral damage, that Israel as a nation will be destroyed and its Hebrew inhabitants shipped off to a modern day repeat of the Holocaust.

Now, if the Israeli military is the greatest in the Middle East, then it should preclude the possibility of Israel as a nation being destroyed and its inhabitants processed to death camps. However, they justify the continued Collective Punishment by saying it's necessary to prevent a repeat of the Holocaust. If that was true, then it would by necessity imply that the Israeli military is not the greatest in the Middle East and that in fact, Israel might be in actual danger of being overwhelmed by its neighbors and their allegedly inferior militaries.

The Holocaust Part Deux argument loses its edge when you take into the fact that Israel is the strongest military man for man in the region and has access to technology and training much more advanced than their Arab neighbors. The Jews who were persecuted and murdered were almost all defenseless in comparison.

Again it goes back to the people who laugh and brag about Israel being able to wipe the floor with "the ragheads" whining about how there would be Zyklon-B shower stalls in Tel Aviv if they aren't allowed to bomb the shit out of Arab nations that apparently can't stand up to the superior Israeli military in the first place.

It is worth mentioning that even a few nuclear weapons in the hands of a far inferior military could wipe away most of Israel. Which may lend support to the idea that just because Israel has a superior conventional military doesn't necessarily make them any safer if they just sit back and take it.

There is no need for you to get angry about reports showing that Iran and Syria are supplying Hezbollah with weapons. All I am doing is stating what is reported. There is no need to get hostile with me. If you have to get hostile with someone, then be hostile at the media for they are the ones reporting it.

I would not be surprised at all if Syria and Iran are supplying Hezbollah with munitions however.
:confused: I'm not angry.

I also would not be surprised if either/or both were supplying weapons.
I also would not be surprised if either/or both were selling weapons too.

Do we label as much criticism on the US for supplying the IDf with 'smart bombs' ? No. We put the blame on the IDF when those bombs hit ambulances or civiilans or peacekeepers. We do not blame the country that supplied the weapons.

It is worth mentioning that even a few nuclear weapons in the hands of a far inferior military could wipe away most of Israel. Which may lend support to the idea that just because Israel has a superior conventional military doesn't necessarily make them any safer if they just sit back and take it.

Considering Israel has the most nuclear weapons in the Middle East (and we never would have known without Mordecai Venunu) that argument relies on two conditions:

1) That any of Israel's neighbors, much less most or all of them have nuclear weapons to begin with. And it's been repeated that Iran would need years to even approach a workable nuclear weapon.

2) That if any of Israel's neighbors possess nuclear weapons, that they are driven by an irrational hatred that would even supercede their political sense of self-preservation when it comes to power. Politicians are the same all over the world, no matter their color and beliefs. They'll give lip services to their electoral base, but they know what it really takes to stay in power.

Otherwise it's a case of the Cat claiming to be the Mouse.

Ok, again i'm going to say this: merely because the ordinance is manufactured in one country does not imply they are to be held responsible for the use of it by another party at a later stage. America, Russia and China are some of the biggest arms exporters. Are you blaming them for the conflicts that use their guns or bullets? No.

We do not hold the manufacturers responsible for the buyers actions. Iran very well may have sold weapons to them. We do not blame the US for this mess purely because the IDF uses their missiles. You get the point now?


Who says they're not?

It's only fair we blame them, after all don't they Blame us when Israel uses a US weapon? I guess those people screaming death to America are just bored.

It's only fair we blame them, after all don't they Blame us when Israel uses a US weapon? I guess those people screaming death to America are just bored.
You'll notice they way I said "We" repeatedly.....

Now, if the Israeli military is the greatest in the Middle East, then it should preclude the possibility of Israel as a nation being destroyed and its inhabitants processed to death camps. However, they justify the continued Collective Punishment by saying it's necessary to prevent a repeat of the Holocaust. If that was true, then it would by necessity imply that the Israeli military is not the greatest in the Middle East and that in fact, Israel might be in actual danger of being overwhelmed by its neighbors and their allegedly inferior militaries.

I never heard anyone use the holocaust as a justification for this offensive before today. I seriously doubt it is true or relevant. I don't think that is what is going through the minds of those in charge of this war. There are many situations that are conceivable: Israel could just attack everyone, use Nuc's, whatever. The US could do the same, then there would be no problems in the middle east. They don't because we all value human life no matter what the political and religous group a life may belong to. Furthermore, everyone wants peace in the middle east -- even Iran -- it's just everyone has different ideas about how this comes about. Some of these ideas are inimical to Israel. So, rationally, Israel protects its interests. I'm sure that Israel would prefer to live peacefully with its neighbours.

Considering Israel has the most nuclear weapons in the Middle East (and we never would have known without Mordecai Venunu) that argument relies on two conditions:

1) That any of Israel's neighbors, much less most or all of them have nuclear weapons to begin with. And it's been repeated that Iran would need years to even approach a workable nuclear weapon.

2) That if any of Israel's neighbors possess nuclear weapons, that they are driven by an irrational hatred that would even supercede their political sense of self-preservation when it comes to power. Politicians are the same all over the world, no matter their color and beliefs. They'll give lip services to their electoral base, but they know what it really takes to stay in power.

Otherwise it's a case of the Cat claiming to be the Mouse.
The leader of Iran is part of a religious sect that believes the end of days is near. His sect believes that the destruction of Israel will bring about their savior. Mix that with the fact that these people believe they get 72 virgins and you will see that they don't give a damn about self-preservation. The people that the Israelis are fighting are psychotic.

Is this true if you (deleted to keep short, but left some to signify which post I'm talking about) in Lebanon now.
What? Give mt some sources to whatever it is you just said.

The leader of Iran is part of a religious sect that believes the end of days is near. His sect believes that the destruction of Israel will bring about their savior. Mix that with the fact that these people believe they get 72 virgins and you will see that they don't give a damn about self-preservation. The people that the Israelis are fighting are psychotic.
But if you get people to think that, teh evol Isealis will teh winn. If it's one thing people tend to believe, it's that if it gets in the way and proves you wrong, the truth should be surpressed and ultimately replaced by convenient lies.

The leader of Iran is part of a religious sect that believes the end of days is near. His sect believes that the destruction of Israel will bring about their savior. Mix that with the fact that these people believe they get 72 virgins and you will see that they don't give a damn about self-preservation. The people that the Israelis are fighting are psychotic.

Can you provide a link that details Ahmedinejad's religious beliefs? And it has been mentioned that he's merely a figurehead for the Islamic council that as been holding the real power since the Revolution.

And when you mean "These People" are you generalizing Iranians or Muslims all believe in the 72 Virgins claim?