NationStates Jolt Archive

>_>

Anyone else think that Warhammer is just a blatant ripoff of Tolkein?

Anyone else think that Warhammer is just a blatant ripoff of Tolkein?

So is most post-Tolkein fantasy.

So is most post-Tolkein fantasy.

Exactly, which is why a comparison between Warcraft and Warhammer in particular is silly.

Exactly, which is why a comparison between Warcraft and Warhammer in particular is silly.
*Throws a packet of Tim Tams at Kanabia*
In approval, in approval...

Warhammer is a rip off owned by corporate low lifes whereas...
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Warcraft is cool, i played it for the first time today in over a year.:cool:

*Throws a packet of Tim Tams at Kanabia*
In approval, in approval...

Yay, Tim Tams! *passes Harley a beer*

Hm, I don't think the two would go together so well, though.

Yay, Tim Tams! *passes Harley a beer*

Hm, I don't think the two would go together so well, though.
*Brings IL Ruffino into the thread*
Ruffy make me a Deep Fried Beer Battered Tim Tam!

On second thoughs no!:eek:
That's a waste of beer!:(

*Brings a woman into the thread.*-Women like Tim Tams.:)

*Drinks Beer*:cool:

On second thoughs no!:eek:
That's a waste of beer!:(


It's okay if you use crap beer. *nods*

Anyone else think that Warhammer is just a blatant ripoff of Tolkein?

Not really.

Anyone else think that Kanabia is just a blatant ripoff of the unfrozen Jack Dawson character in Titanic II?

Anyone else think that Kanabia is just a blatant ripoff of the unfrozen Jack Dawson character in Titanic II?

whowhat?

Not really.
Orcs?
The fact that they admitted it?

Anyone else think that Kanabia is just a blatant ripoff of the unfrozen Jack Dawson character in Titanic II?
Even with Jack Dawson Frozen, Kanabia is way cooler!
*Hasn't seen Titanic*:cool:

Not really.

Warhammer has as much in common with Tolkein as it does with Warcraft.

Warhammer has as much in common with Tolkein as it does with Warcraft.

Every fantasy world has it's basis in Tolkien (heck, even my stuff does, well, sorta), but stylistically, Warhammer is much different to Tolkien's stuff (more cartoony, less mystical), and WarCraft is very similar Warhammer.

Every fantasy world has it's basis in Tolkien (heck, even my stuff does, well, sorta), but stylistically, Warhammer is much different to Tolkien's stuff (more cartoony, less mystical), and WarCraft is very similar Warhammer.

...wait, wasn't it you who claimed the same thing about the Elder Scrolls series being a ripoff of Warhammer? I think it was.

...wait, wasn't it you who claimed the same thing about the Elder Scrolls series being a ripoff of Warhammer? I think it was.

I don't think so. Elder Scrolls is somewhere between Tolkien and Warhammer.

Warhammer is a rip off owned by corporate low lifes whereas...
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Warcraft is cool, i played it for the first time today in over a year.:cool:

Whereas Warhammer is a rip off indeed now owned by corporate low lives, war-craft is the usual air-spray cartoon fantasy shite that I've always loathed about American conceptions of the Genre. I despise the entire visual style of the thing, and am mystified by its popularity.

I'm A huge warcraft fan, I've got about every novel and the Collecter's edition of WoW. I also have its P&P rpg book.

I am also a huge fan of warhammer and have been playing it for a while reading all its books and lore

I can't see why any one would be better than another. Warcraft And Warhammer have a tottally different style. Want to compare a Knight of Stormwind to a Bretonnian? Shouldnt try. though, Both worlds are being besieged by demonic forces in an actual similair way does give them some things that are alike. But in no way that on has ripped of the other

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060410.jpg

Meh, but you must admit WarCraft is a fun game! :)

Whereas Warhammer is a rip off indeed now owned by corporate low lives, war-craft is the usual air-spray cartoon fantasy shite that I've always loathed about American conceptions of the Genre. I despise the entire visual style of the thing, and am mystified by its popularity.

Mmm. Warhammer has some cartoony graphics, but it also has an air of seriousness about it that should surround all good fantasy worlds. WarCraft couldn't feel less serious if it starred a furry cat as the main protagonist.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060410.jpg

Curses. Beaten.

But in no way that on has ripped of the other

Well, here's the thing... AFAIK, Warhammer preceded WarCraft by about 20 years. Warhammer invented the basic visual conception that many, many fantasy worlds use today (for example, muscly green Orcs).

Curses. Beaten.

Ah, the microscopic joy of foiling someone else's labours.

Mmm. Warhammer has some cartoony graphics, but it also has an air of seriousness about it that should surround all good fantasy worlds. WarCraft couldn't feel less serious if it starred a furry cat as the main protagonist.

They go either way, as suits them. Orks are hilarious, yet nasty pieces of work. Chaos works on a number of levels.....overall they've kept the background strangely vital - even when they've (in my opinion) fucked up the board games (W40K in particular). I may even give on-line a lash.

They go either way, as suits them. Orks are hilarious, yet nasty pieces of work. Chaos works on a number of levels.....overall they've kept the background strangely vital - even when they've (in my opinion) fucked up the board games (W40K in particular). I may even give on-line a lash.

Yeah, I wanna try WAR. It looks better than WoW, IMO. Graphically as well as generally more interesting.

Only... *looks at screenshots* Where the bloody hell are the Empire?

Every fantasy world has it's basis in Tolkien ...

This just in: Conan's Hyboria is a rip off of Tolkein. Pity that Robert E Howard killed himself, what with possessing a time machine and all.

Warhammer invented the basic visual conception that many, many fantasy worlds use today (for example, muscly green Orcs).

Ah, but Warhammer just tweaked the template of pig-faced Orcs from D&D.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060410.jpg

Someone needs to have his Tainted ass cleansed.

This just in: Conan's Hyboria is a rip off of Tolkein. Pity that Robert E Howard killed himself, what with possessing a time machine and all.

I meant High Fantasy. Conan is Swords and Sorcery.

Ah, but Warhammer just tweaked the template of pig-faced Orcs from D&D.

*looks up D&D orcs*

Not... really.

I meant High Fantasy. Conan is Swords and Sorcery.

I wouldn't classify Warhammer as High Fantasy. I'm far from up to par on the current background, but certainly the WFRP displayed a marked fascination with disease, rat-catchers, grime, dirt, beggars, poverty and other staples of the Low Fantasy genre.

However, is Warhammer influenced by Tolkein? Certainly.

I wouldn't classify Warhammer as High Fantasy. I'm far from up to par on the current background, but certainly the WFRP displayed a marked fascination with disease, rat-catchers, grime, dirt, beggars, poverty and other staples of the Low Fantasy genre.

However, is Warhammer influenced by Tolkein? Certainly.

Yeah, but, AFAIK, low fantasy doesn't really use different races.

*looks up D&D orcs*

Not... really.

If you look at the early orc figures produced by Citadel you will see what I mean. However, I've been out of this whole loop for nearly 20 years, and so I don't know if any traces remain.

Yeah, but, AFAIK, low fantasy doesn't really use different races.

Hmm, possibly as a rule of thumb, but I think the worldview of the cosmos as a somewhat dark and dirty place is more of a defining characteristic.

As an interesting sidenote Wikipedia does list WFRP as an example of a low fantasy RPG, but we all know how much that is worth.

Since we're discussing rip-offs here, wasn't the original Half-Life something of a Doom and Quake ripoff?

Since we're discussing rip-offs here, wasn't the original Half-Life something of a Doom and Quake ripoff?

Wasn't Doom a ripoff of Wolfenstein? Wasn't Wolfenstein a ripoff of 3D Monster Maze? etc.

Wasn't Doom a ripoff of Wolfenstein? Wasn't Wolfenstein a ripoff of 3D Monster Maze? etc.

Making something in the same genre isn't ripping it off.

Making something in the same genre isn't ripping it off.

:fluffle:
Conclusion how neither warcraft or warhammer is ripped off

Making something in the same genre isn't ripping it off.

Yeah, that was my point - it is possible to operate within the same genre and by adding interesting new features or creatively reusing old ones make something which isn't a rip off. Of course, there do remain cynical attempts driven almost purely by the notion of making a quick buck, but examples currently escape me.

If you look at the early orc figures produced by Citadel you will see what I mean. However, I've been out of this whole loop for nearly 20 years, and so I don't know if any traces remain.Heey! I have some of those. It's a pitty the GW settings have changed so much over the years. The fluff used to be downright nasty (which is what attracted me). The renditions of the worlds & races, however, has vastly improved over all. I miss the hillarity that was Orcs & nurgle hordes though. The old minis are unsurpassed.

Heey! I have some of those. It's a pitty the GW settings have changed so much over the years. The fluff used to be downright nasty (which is what attracted me). The renditions of the worlds & races, however, has vastly improved over all. I miss the hillarity that was Orcs & nurgle hordes though. The old minis are unsurpassed.

One of those strange moments on NS when you realise you are discussing nerddom with an avid fan of streetpunk.

Fred Perry, Doctor Martins and ...Citadel Minatures?

Fred Perry, Doctor Martins and ...Citadel Minatures?

I think I'm going to cry.

:fluffle:
Conclusion how neither warcraft or warhammer is ripped off

I'm saying that WarCraft is ripped off of Warhammer. Too similar to me.

One of those strange moments on NS when you realise you are discussing nerddom with an avid fan of streetpunk.
Fred Perry, Doctor Martins and ...Citadel Minatures?

Creepy, no?

Reminds me of the time I was at GenCon in 2004, and one of the demo guys for (IIRC) that newish "fantasy robot-golem fighting minis game set in the Iron Kingdoms" game was this fella covered in crew-ink all down his arms and knuckles. In particular I noticed the Olde English Script announcing him as one of the "Brummie Skins".

Yeah, I wanna try WAR. It looks better than WoW, IMO. Graphically as well as generally more interesting.

Only... *looks at screenshots* Where the bloody hell are the Empire?

Possibly in the expansion in 2008, kind of thing.

Creepy, no?


Which I guess brings us to Boltthrower and Sabbat...

Heey! I have some of those. It's a pitty the GW settings have changed so much over the years. The fluff used to be downright nasty (which is what attracted me). The renditions of the worlds & races, however, has vastly improved over all. I miss the hillarity that was Orcs & nurgle hordes though. The old minis are unsurpassed.

My last brush with GW was the "Dawn of War" videogame and Chaos were...Chaos. Seemed Khorne heavy though, that being said. Orks were the the Orks I remembered, and the Space Marines were goose-stepping along in much the same mode too.

And since when were Docs a thing of the past?

Possibly in the expansion in 2008, kind of thing.

But they said they would be an initial race... :(

But they said they would be an initial race... :(

They say many things.....

Fred Perry, Doctor Martins and ...Citadel Minatures?Hell yes! All the Oi! Punks play - didn't you read the manual? ;)
Creepy, no?

Reminds me of the time I was at GenCon in 2004, and one of the demo guys for (IIRC) that newish "fantasy robot-golem fighting minis game set in the Iron Kingdoms" game was this fella covered in crew-ink all down his arms and knuckles. In particular I noticed the Olde English Script announcing him as one of the "Brummie Skins".I recently took up playing again, actually (hadn't been at it for years). My oponents are two skinheads & a punk.

I have a feeling the games hold some sort of special appeal to people like us. I've met tons of punks & skins who have or do play & if my memory isn't totally fucked, GW released Boltthrower albums in the past.

Orks were the the Orks I remembered, and the Space Marines were goose-stepping along in much the same mode too.Chaos has always been Chaos, more or less. They were just far more graphic & in your face about it back in the day. Slan fuckers had pierced tits in strange places & the cuddly little Nurgle guys had little nurglings sitting on their faces, eating feces. It's hard not to miss such things.

Orcs are nothing like they used to be. The Kults & Chaos orcs are a thing os the past. Goffs aren't motherfuckers anymore & Bad Moons don't run around with collections of orc teeth, just to give a couple of examples. Orcs have become a "serious" race, instead of a bunch of drunken louts who won by a combination of extreme sillyness, luck & utter unpredictability. I want my warp gun & my lifta-droppa back. If you remember what stormboyz used to be like, then that's basically been expanded to all or orc-dom. So very sad.

The fluff's just gone downhill. Probably for kiddy-appeal on the US market. There's no cute little stories of people getting drafted into the Legion's penal regiment (who were living bombs back then) for failing to turn in a library book on time. Most of the really fucked up brutal fascist stuff's been removed, along with the sex, gore, drugs & alcohol.

Every fantasy world has it's basis in Tolkien (heck, even my stuff does, well, sorta), but stylistically, Warhammer is much different to Tolkien's stuff (more cartoony, less mystical), and WarCraft is very similar Warhammer.
Do you do anything else but complain about stuff that really doesn't need complaining?

Warcraft is a computer game. Warhammer is miniatures. The very nature of the two games is completely different. Until Warcraft introduces a "Skaven" race, I think it's a matter of apples to artichokes.

I know that won't stop you, though, you crazed nihilist, you!

So you go on and rant, pal. We've got the popcorn -- we're ready.

Every fantasy world has it's basis in Tolkien (heck, even my stuff does, well, sorta), but stylistically, Warhammer is much different to Tolkien's stuff (more cartoony, less mystical), and WarCraft is very similar Warhammer.

Intended audience.

They say many things.....

But they're still saying it...

Warcraft is a computer game. Warhammer is miniatures. The very nature of the two games is completely different. Until Warcraft introduces a "Skaven" race, I think it's a matter of apples to artichokes.

Oh yeah? What about WC's Tauren? Totally ripped off the Beasts of Chaos.

Oh yeah? What about WC's Tauren? Totally ripped off the Beasts of Chaos.


'Beasts Of Chaos'? Goat-headed animal-beast hybrids tainted and warped by the primal forces of Chaos? Ah right, you mean Broo (http://www.solegends.com/citrq/citrqbroo2.htm) from Runequest (1978).

To defile the name of Warhammer in such a way is a sin.

no. it's a rip off of tolkien. y'now, beacause of the whole "orcs vs. humans" thing. because in lord of the rings, humans were one of the races fighting the evil race, which is the orcs.

no. it's a rip off of tolkien. y'now, beacause of the whole "orcs vs. humans" thing. because in lord of the rings, humans were one of the races fighting the evil race, which is the orcs.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't the humans do things vastly more evil than the orcs? Sounds like you have swallowed the pro-homo sap propaganda.

'Beasts Of Chaos'? Goat-headed animal-beast hybrids tainted and warped by the primal forces of Chaos? Ah right, you mean Broo (http://www.solegends.com/citrq/citrqbroo2.htm) from Runequest (1978).

What the hell is that?

You're just upset because you didn't think of the ripoff first.

What the hell is that?


What the hell is Runequest? *splutter*

It was only the second most popular RPG during the late seventies and early eighties, and its somewhat crunchy mechanics have gone on to influence a great deal of other systems.

Unlike D&D it didn't just settle for a default pseudo-medieval European setting, instead it created a world of its own - Glorantha - which was a strange mix of Hellenic culture, American Indian, Norse mythology and other diverse historical strands. Interestingly enough it was also a mainly bronze-age technology place. It rejected many of the already standard monsters of RPGs - for example there were no orcs or goblins - but instead provided a fascinating range of its own (frex, Morokanth, Broo, Newtlings). When it did use more traditional creatures it used them in inventive ways: the most cultured and most technologically advanced race were in fact the Trolls, while the elves were half-plant but all evil.

What the hell is Runequest? *splutter*

It was only the second most popular RPG during the late seventies and early eighties, and its somewhat crunchy mechanics have gone on to influence a great deal of other systems.

Unlike D&D it didn't just settle for a default pseudo-medieval European setting, instead it created a world of its own - Glorantha - which was a strange mix of Hellenic culture, American Indian, Norse mythology and other diverse historical strands. Interestingly enough it was also a mainly bronze-age technology place. It rejected many of the already standard monsters of RPGs - for example there were no orcs or goblins - but instead provided a fascinating range of its own (frex, Morokanth, Broo, Newtlings). When it did use more traditional creatures it used them in inventive ways: the most cultured and most technologically advanced race were in fact the Trolls, while the elves were half-plant but all evil.

I thought the experience system in Runequest was the best. As was the Glorantha backdrop.

What the hell is Runequest? *splutter*

It was only the second most popular RPG during the late seventies and early eighties, and its somewhat crunchy mechanics have gone on to influence a great deal of other systems.

Unlike D&D it didn't just settle for a default pseudo-medieval European setting, instead it created a world of its own - Glorantha - which was a strange mix of Hellenic culture, American Indian, Norse mythology and other diverse historical strands. Interestingly enough it was also a mainly bronze-age technology place. It rejected many of the already standard monsters of RPGs - for example there were no orcs or goblins - but instead provided a fascinating range of its own (frex, Morokanth, Broo, Newtlings). When it did use more traditional creatures it used them in inventive ways: the most cultured and most technologically advanced race were in fact the Trolls, while the elves were half-plant but all evil.

Sounds like my stuff. Except less elegant.

I thought the experience system in Runequest was the best. As was the Glorantha backdrop.

Certainly it was better than the level based system of its precursers like D&D and T&T, but I seem to recall that there were a couple of flaws in it as originally published, however some of these were fixed in later incarnations of the BRP line (Elric, Call Of Cthulhu, etc.). Minor quibbles here, however, the idea of the experience system was a good one, but the execution was a tad patchy.

As for Glorantha, even after all this time it still carries a fascinating air of mystery. Name me one other humanocentric game which can have Ducks as a potential character race without appearing silly or needlessly anthropomorphic...

Sounds like my stuff. Except less elegant.

Don't mistake my rambling and badly written text there for the nature of the gameworld. For some reason I'm typing like I'm functionally illiterate today.

Certainly it was better than the level based system of its precursers like D&D and T&T, but I seem to recall that there were a couple of flaws in it as originally published, however some of these were fixed in later incarnations of the BRP line (Elric, Call Of Cthulhu, etc.). Minor quibbles here, however, the idea of the experience system was a good one, but the execution was a tad patchy.

As for Glorantha, even after all this time it still carries a fascinating air of mystery. Name me one other humanocentric game which can have Ducks as a potential character race without appearing silly or needlessly anthropomorphic...

I will attempt to quack.

*rolls dice*

Ohhh, a 1, sorry, critical quack failure.

Don't mistake my rambling and badly written text there for the nature of the gameworld. For some reason I'm typing like I'm functionally illiterate today.

There's this thing about illiterate, if you can spell it, you're not.

As for Glorantha, even after all this time it still carries a fascinating air of mystery.

Not quite as mysterious as Empire of the Petal Throne.

Not quite as mysterious as Empire of the Petal Throne.

Up for debate there: the actual story of Tekumel is fairly clear, but Glorantha remains somewhat purposefully obscure.

Up for debate there: the actual story of Tekumel is fairly clear, but Glorantha remains somewhat purposefully obscure.

True, but I was convinced that Barker dropped acid in order to conceive of it all.

This has just become a nerdfest now, hasn't it?

This has just become a nerdfest now, hasn't it?

Better a nerdfest than a Airsoft fat-boy fest...

This has just become a nerdfest now, hasn't it?

The fact that it started out as an argument over Warcraft and Warhammer should have been sufficient warning, no?

This has just become a nerdfest now, hasn't it?

That statement implies that NSG wasn't a nerdfest to begin with.

Anyway, I'll say that Warhammer was an almost blatant ripoff of Tolkien when it started, but it's developed enough to be it's own thing. The same with Warcraft in regards to Warhammer. The same for Starcraft in regards to Warhammer 40k as well.

That statement implies that NSG wasn't a nerdfest to begin with.

Anyway, I'll say that Warhammer was an almost blatant ripoff of Tolkien when it started, but it's developed enough to be it's own thing. The same with Warcraft in regards to Warhammer. The same for Starcraft in regards to Warhammer 40k as well.

ehh, both were a ripoff of starship troopers =P

ehh, both were a ripoff of starship troopers =P

Among other things, yes.

ehh, both were a ripoff of starship troopers =P

Nah. W40k grew out of Imperial Commander, which grew out of Lazerburn, which was primarily influenced by a mixture of Traveller/Snapshot, Dune and the original Star Wars.

So why the shift from human adversaries in the earlier games to modified forms of fantastic races? Simple.

Games Workshop were in the business of selling minatures. A wide range of non-human sf figures could launch a boom in the lead business. Cynical marketing to pubescent males lies at the heart of the game.

Mmm. Warhammer has some cartoony graphics, but it also has an air of seriousness about it that should surround all good fantasy worlds. WarCraft couldn't feel less serious if it starred a furry cat as the main protagonist.
I can only detect an air of seriousness around WarHammer40K, for classic it's too thin for my scanners. I think part of Warcraft's mainstream attraction is it's lack of seriousness. Although the first two games were reasonably serious, some things in the the newer ones are borderline silly.

Yeah, but, AFAIK, low fantasy doesn't really use different races.
I would classify the "Gothic" series as low fantasy, it as orcs.

Warcraft is a computer game. Warhammer is miniatures. The very nature of the two games is completely different.
They are both crossing into one another's territory. There is going to be a Warhammer fantasy MMORPG, and I know Blizzard has made a Warcraft board game. I am uncertain whether there will be a Warcraft tabletop strategy game like Warhammer.

I would classify the "Gothic" series as low fantasy, it as orcs.

If I remember the first edition of Warhammer correctly it actually dealt with the whole different races malarky in quite an interesting way: for the most part it mapped non-human races onto non-British nationalities. Thus, the frog-like Slan were a simulacra of Aztecs and Mayans, while Dwarves were based on Scandinavians, while Elves were essentially French. Something like that, anyhow, it was all a long time ago.

If I remember the first edition of Warhammer correctly it actually dealt with the whole different races malarky in quite an interesting way: for the most part it mapped non-human races onto non-British nationalities. Thus, the frog-like Slan were a simulacra of Aztecs and Mayans, while Dwarves were based on Scandinavians, while Elves were essentially French. Something like that, anyhow, it was all a long time ago.

What about the Empire? They're German.

They are both crossing into one another's territory. There is going to be a Warhammer fantasy MMORPG...

Looks better than WoW too...

What about the Empire? They're German.

I don't remember if the Empire existed in the first edition. I could well be wrong though, 1983 was a long time ago.

If I remember the first edition of Warhammer correctly it actually dealt with the whole different races malarky in quite an interesting way: for the most part it mapped non-human races onto non-British nationalities. Thus, the frog-like Slan were a simulacra of Aztecs and Mayans, while Dwarves were based on Scandinavians, while Elves were essentially French. Something like that, anyhow, it was all a long time ago.

There's still a bit of that. The Empire is German, the Brettonians are French, Chaos is Nordic (Vikings), as are the Dwarves to a point. The Lizardmen are Atzec/Mayan, the Ogres are Central Asian, etc. And, of course, the map of the Warhammer world is very roughly similar to the real world.