NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

A sixteen year old girl who had endured torture and rape was hanged for "crimes against chastity". Since the age of consent is 9 in Iran, and under their judicial system it's almost impossible to prove that it was rape instead of consentual sex, she was unable to prove that she didn't want some 51 year old guy banging her.

When are people in Iran going to realize that their government sanctions child rape and executes innocent victims? When will there be a secular revolution to overthrow and punish the Islamic revolution in that place?

Just out of spite, I hope that post-Ayatollah Iran actively suppresses ALL religion. Freedom of religious expression be damned, Iran has to earn this right back.

Chances are they already realise it, and just consider it perfectly acceptable.

Pity, since allowing the abuse and trauma of half the population usually comes back to bite said population eventually.

You're all wrong. Read the article. She had gone to a party and been alone w/ a boy. She was obviously asking for it. :rolleyes:

Well, if given enough time, I suppose it will happen (my guess is a few decades). Fundamentalism will eventually outlive itself when people will see that nothing but (self-)destruction comes from it.

Does it bring new jobs? - No.
Does it solve long-standing social and demographic problems - No. (instead, it creates even more ones, by telling people to multiply endlessly like rabbits)
Does it solve ecological problems (of which Iran has plenty)? - No.

Thus, as a "political" system it seems to have no future and is destined to eventually fail, like Communism did.

Well, if given enough time, I suppose it will happen (my guess is a few decades). Fundamentalism will eventually outlive itself when people will see that nothing but (self-)destruction comes from it.

Does it bring new jobs? - No.
Does it solve long-standing social and demographic problems - No. (instead, it creates even more ones, by telling people to multiply endlessly like rabbits)
Does it solve ecological problems (of which Iran has plenty)? - No.

Thus, as a "political" system it seems to have no future and is destined to eventually fail, like Communism did.
Yeah, but the Iranian government has, through a combination of blaming the US and Israel for it's problems and imprisoning/torturing/killing journalists and dissenters has kept control so far. Who's to say how long they can keep it up? With oil prices this high, I'd wager they'll be able to maintain control for decades to come.

forget secular revolution. it needs a civil war.

Possible. After all, communism held the Soviet Union in it's grasp for over 70 years...

With oil prices this high, I'd wager they'll be able to maintain control for decades to come.

Nope, actually they're getting screwed by higher oil prices. Iran does not produce enough gasoline or other fuels to meet its domestic demand (and subsidies only make the situation worse); as a result, they have to spend money importing these products from other countries and that money comes from their oil exports.

However, the cost of a barrel of oil is $70 but the cost of a barrel of gasoline is $93; that means they have to export 1.33 barrels of oil for each barrel of gasoline just to break even; the money they've set aside for gasoline purchases has run out due to rising prices so they are now rationing gasoline to prevent it from running out. The government can't get rid of its subsidies without raising prices, so that means they will have to keep importing gasoline and eating away at their export revenues just to keep the population happy.

Also, Iran's on the verge of economic collapse. 11% unemployment, 40% poverty, and 10% inflation are eating away at purchasing power while the nutjob Ahmadinejad scares away foreign investment further weakening their economy. Iran's days are numbered, and the end's a lot closer than you think.

forget secular revolution. it needs a civil war.

At the very least. and not just 2 sides vying for control like the american civil war. The fundamentalists cannot just be defeated, they must be completely eliminated.

Iran needs to have some common sense bombed into it.

Irans only crime it appears is to try and do things differently.

It is a comparitvely wealthy, democratic middle eastern state. Its not perfect, but your president is mental too and many believe he doesnt weild the real power. so what?

The case is horrific, but so are 100 capital punishment cases in the US. Miscarraiges of justice happen everywhere. Why pick on Iran? because thats the neo-con hymn sheet this week?

okay. why is their age of consent so low. and isent she too young to be sentenced to death?

okay. why is their age of consent so low. and isent she too young to be sentenced to death?

So little girls can be married off to old men, and no, because islam is severly fucked up.

Nope, actually they're getting screwed by higher oil prices. Iran does not produce enough gasoline or other fuels to meet its domestic demand (and subsidies only make the situation worse); as a result, they have to spend money importing these products from other countries and that money comes from their oil exports.

However, the cost of a barrel of oil is $70 but the cost of a barrel of gasoline is $93; that means they have to export 1.33 barrels of oil for each barrel of gasoline just to break even; the money they've set aside for gasoline purchases has run out due to rising prices so they are now rationing gasoline to prevent it from running out. The government can't get rid of its subsidies without raising prices, so that means they will have to keep importing gasoline and eating away at their export revenues just to keep the population happy.

Also, Iran's on the verge of economic collapse. 11% unemployment, 40% poverty, and 10% inflation are eating away at purchasing power while the nutjob Ahmadinejad scares away foreign investment further weakening their economy. Iran's days are numbered, and the end's a lot closer than you think.

This is quite interesting, even if the math is economically illogical. About numbered days, it is wise to recognize conditions that may mark eventual demise. The political polarization in the States destabilizes the country from within. For all of China's economic miracles, there are equally foreboding crumblings at its foundations; it could collapse more easily than not. If Ahmadinejad is the nutjob that media portray him as, Iran could be on the brink of collapse; we must acknowledge, however, that the media portrayal of Iran is falsely inhuman: by far, Iran has the most secular culture of any of its south-asian neighbors, even including the Hindu and Buddhist countries far to its east. In this way, the Iranian public significantly resembles Europeans, and may be generations ahead of any other Islamic state except for Turkey. Of course, we cannot fail to acknoweldge the fundamentalist national government, but it exists as a result of a political coup, not democratic or representative principles. Those who don't swallow the media 'party line' might also believe similarly about the government of the United States.

So, the original topic is: Iran needs a secular revolution. I contend the States could do with one, too, but in either case, how could that happen?

The case is horrific, but so are 100 capital punishment cases in the US. Miscarraiges of justice happen everywhere. Why pick on Iran? because thats the neo-con hymn sheet this week?

Killing a convicted serial murder =/= killing a rape victim.

You lose, good day sir.

So little girls can be married off to old men, and no, because islam is severly fucked up.
but theres this un thing that says she is too young to be sentenced to death.

Killing a convicted serial murder =/= killing a rape victim.

You lose, good day sir.

im not for a second comparing them, but not one innocent man gassed/injected/chaired in the US? you can think of no mind-boggling legal descisions in the west?

not one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

A sixteen year old girl who had endured torture and rape was hanged for "crimes against chastity". Since the age of consent is 9 in Iran, and under their judicial system it's almost impossible to prove that it was rape instead of consentual sex, she was unable to prove that she didn't want some 51 year old guy banging her.

When are people in Iran going to realize that their government sanctions child rape and executes innocent victims? When will there be a secular revolution to overthrow and punish the Islamic revolution in that place?

Are you kidding? I think the women love being oppressed. Really though, I don't think they realize how bad they have it after being doped on so much propaganda. I saw this clip of Iranian or Pakistani (don't remember which) women police officers and they were dressed head to toe in their Burkhas and what not, it was funny though, they probably don't accomplish much, but it does make them feel needed.

Lets face it: these people love having Islam ingrained in their daily lives, and I don't think they want to see it end. So yes, they would probably realize that it would benefit them after becoming a secular state, it simply is not going to happen.

Normal Iranians get quite a lot out of their Government, comparitively, it is one of the most competent and open regimes in the region - they are therefore willing to accept Government oppression because, by and large, it happens to other people, other marginalised people that are not really cared for.

Iran needs a secular revolution, but not as much as it needs a liberal revolution. Secularism is no definite cure against State oppression, some of the worst Human Rights abusers of the 20th Century were secularists. Instead, Iran just needs to learn the lesson that it is better to live and let live, which, of course, is not incompatible with Classical Islam.

Surveys have proven again and again that Iranians largely share Western values... to an extent, much more than their neighbours. The current Presidency is not due to a swing towards Fundamental Islamism, it is a reaction against perceived American aggression. Iran is a proud nation, they are the successor state of the five thousand year old Persian Empire, and, understandably, object to being looked down on.

Just out of spite, I hope that post-Ayatollah Iran actively suppresses ALL religion. Freedom of religious expression be damned, Iran has to earn this right back.
Not only is that wrong, but it would give the Muslim conservatives a persecution complex, which would appeal to those with latent wishes for a theocracy.

Irans only crime it appears is to try and do things differently.
The murderous way. Yes, that's a crime.

It is a comparitvely wealthy, democratic middle eastern state. Its not perfect, but your president is mental too and many believe he doesnt weild the real power. so what?

The case is horrific, but so are 100 capital punishment cases in the US. Miscarraiges of justice happen everywhere. Why pick on Iran? because thats the neo-con hymn sheet this week?
Iran executes twice the number of people that the USA does. If US executions are horrific, why aren't Iranian executions horrific?

In the USA girls aren't executed for being with boys, and gays aren't executed for being gay. Journalists are not imprisoned for criticising the government.

im not for a second comparing them, but not one innocent man gassed/injected/chaired in the US? you can think of no mind-boggling legal descisions in the west?
Yes, but they're not as common as in Iran. Do you really think that we have to create Heaven on Earth in the west before we can utter a word of criticism about Iran?

Why not pick on Iran, where hundreds of innocent men and women are executed, usually in less humane ways than America?

okay. why is their age of consent so low. and isent she too young to be sentenced to death?
1) Because Muhammad married a 6 year old named Aisha and raped her when she was 9. What's good enough for Muhammad is good enough for his faithful followers in Iran.

2) They execute people alot younger than her.

Are you kidding? I think the women love being oppressed. Really though, I don't think they realize how bad they have it after being doped on so much propaganda. I saw this clip of Iranian or Pakistani (don't remember which) women police officers and they were dressed head to toe in their Burkhas and what not, it was funny though, they probably don't accomplish much, but it does make them feel needed.

Lets face it: these people love having Islam ingrained in their daily lives, and I don't think they want to see it end. So yes, they would probably realize that it would benefit them after becoming a secular state, it simply is not going to happen.
They were Iranian. I saw it too.

1) Because Muhammad married a 6 year old named Aisha and raped her when she was 9. What's good enough for Muhammad is good enough for his faithful followers in Iran.

2) They execute people alot younger than her.
this official makes me hate islam even more.

1) Because Muhammad married a 6 year old named Aisha and raped her when she was 9. What's good enough for Muhammad is good enough for his faithful followers in Iran.


There are different hadiths (narrations) on Aisha's age. Bukhari - a sunni scholar - says that she got married at 6 (Mohammed was over 50 at that time) and the marriage was consummated at 9.

Aisha herself says that marriage was at 6 and that she was admitted to Mohammed's house when she was 9.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3310
Book 008, Number 3310:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.


Aisha is also the daughter of Abu Bakr whom Mohammed treats as "brother".

The Shias reject Bukhari's and Aisha's hadiths as biased sunni accounts. I have heard Shia's refer to other hadiths which say that Aisha was 13/14 at that time (as if that makes it OK) and that "in those days girls mature fast, so it was OK" and similar excuses.

But the influence of this episode can still be seen amongst muslims who justify child marriage citing Aisha's marriage to Mohammed.

Makes me wonder why people bother defending it.

I mean the President of Iran's motivation of this whole Nuclear thing is to bring about "The End of the World," so Mohammad's heir or whatever they have will return and take over the world in the name of the Muslim religion.

When you base your nation's future to rely on the "Second Coming" you don't deserve to be a leader. At least Bush isn't saying that Jesus is going to come down from upon high and defeat the terrorists.

The whole nation is a cult plain and simple. Perhaps they need a shipment of koolaid. (The Posion flavored)

The whole nation is a cult plain and simple. Perhaps they need a shipment of koolaid.

There's more to this than that. Before being conquered by "uncultured desert bedouins" (who were under Persian dominance for millenia), Persians were a proud and dominant civilization/people.

The whole Shia thing is a reaction of their subconscious frustration at having been conquered and subjugated by Arabs. But they also have this "converted's zeal" of having to prove to the Arabs that they are more islamic than them. Hence their propping of Hezbollah to show that they are the ones with the balls to stand up to Israel and the great Satan.

You can see shades of this in Pakistan also and basically everwhere where Islam spread by war and subjugation and the local population develops identity crisis.

Few people are willing to lay down their lives for "secularism;" whatever that is.

Killing a convicted serial murder =/= killing a rape victim.

You lose, good day sir.

Apparently, you don't believe that everyone is equal.

Few people are willing to lay down their lives for "secularism;" whatever that is.
They'll lay down their lives for freedom. And only a secular government can guarantee freedom.

Few people are willing to lay down their lives for "secularism;" whatever that is.
I'm willing.

Apparently, you don't believe that everyone is equal.
Everyone is equal? Nope. Some people's lives are worth more than others. While I'm opposed to the death penalty, I don't really lose any sleep over murderers and rapists on death row. A 16 year old kid who's never harmed anyone has much more of a right to live and her life is of much greater value.

Irans only crime it appears is to try and do things differently.

It is a comparitvely wealthy, democratic middle eastern state.
Whose elections make chicago elections look fair.

They'll lay down their lives for freedom. And only a secular government can guarantee freedom.

Freedom to do what? to fornicate?

A secular governmnet can easily become a tyrannical government. Government must be accountable to a higher law of right and wrong.

Freedom to do what? to fornicate?

A secular governmnet can easily become a tyrannical government. Government must be accountable to a higher law of right and wrong.
Yeah, freedom to fornicate among other freedoms, like freedom of and from religion, freedom of speech, freedom to decide what to do with your own body and many many more.

Any government can become tyrannical, but one dedicated to the higher law of liberty and justice, not some imaginary man in the sky, is more reliable.

Your "higher law of right and wrong" is bullshit. Arbitrary rules plucked from a book of fairy tales for adults. You don't even believe in it otherwise you'd kill people for wearing a cotton/polyester blend or eating pork. Yet you still feel compelled to keep up the restrictions against homosexuality, you've just reduced the penalty. Either you believe in the Big Book 'O Bullshit, and you respect every law and penalty in it, or you don't and you're just using it as a tool to enforce injustice based on what you consider icky.

Freedom to do what? to fornicate?

A secular governmnet can easily become a tyrannical government. Government must be accountable to a higher law of right and wrong.
You consider the US Government to be tyrannical?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

A sixteen year old girl who had endured torture and rape was hanged for "crimes against chastity". Since the age of consent is 9 in Iran, and under their judicial system it's almost impossible to prove that it was rape instead of consentual sex, she was unable to prove that she didn't want some 51 year old guy banging her.

When are people in Iran going to realize that their government sanctions child rape and executes innocent victims? When will there be a secular revolution to overthrow and punish the Islamic revolution in that place?
I don't like the ideas of the punshers...

Everyone is equal? Nope. Some people's lives are worth more than others. While I'm opposed to the death penalty, I don't really lose any sleep over murderers and rapists on death row. A 16 year old kid who's never harmed anyone has much more of a right to live and her life is of much greater value.

There seems to be so few people who agree me left in this world...

There seems to be so few people who agree me left in this world...
Maybe it's because you're wrong. Maybe not, but it's worth considering. After all, the whole world isn't crazy.

You consider the US Government to be tyrannical?

Americans are a faithful people.

Any government can become tyrannical, but one dedicated to the higher law of liberty and justice, not some imaginary man in the sky, is more reliable.

Liberty and justice mean nothing without moral truths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5217424.stm
...snip...
When are people in Iran going to realize that their government sanctions child rape and executes innocent victims? When will there be a secular revolution to overthrow and punish the Islamic revolution in that place?

The problem is not Iran. The problem is religion and is the same for any Moslem country with Sharia Law.

Liberty and justice mean nothing without moral truths.

Who says Atheists can't have morals?

Maybe it's because you're wrong. Maybe not, but it's worth considering. After all, the whole world isn't crazy.

...

Gah! I'm not even gonna try!

Americans are a faithful people.

Some are, some aren't, but the government is seperated from religion.

Some are, some aren't, but the government is seperated from religion.

Yes, separated from religion, but not separated from God.

Yes, separated from religion, but not separated from God.

.....

I have no clue where you got that idea.

.....

I have no clue where you got that idea.

We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Constitution of Massachusetts

Americans are a faithful people.
Perhaps. But a faithful people within a secular government.

We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Constitution of Massachusetts
Wow. They really changed their tune with the whole gay marriage thing, didn't they?

Wow. They really changed their tune with the whole gay marriage thing, didn't they?

The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts says that the Massachusetts Constitution not just allows, but MANDATES, same-sex "marriages." This is completely preposterous. I suppose the four honorable Justices found this mandate somewhere between the lines. I suppose simple folk, like me, aren't intelligent enough to see this. :(

We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Constitution of Massachusetts

You realize that Massachusetts is not the whole United States, right?

The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts says that the Massachusetts Constitution not just allows, but MANDATES, same-sex "marriages." This is completely preposterous. I suppose the four honorable Justices found this mandate somewhere between the lines. I suppose simple folk, like me, aren't intelligent enough to see this. :(
Well, I wasn't going to say anything....

CT, you have a nasty habit of talking in high-falluted theological arguments, and then backing them up with the Earthly fallible writings of long-dead New Englanders.

CT, you have a nasty habit of talking in high-falluted theological arguments, and then backing them up with the Earthly fallible writings of long-dead New Englanders.
For this sentence you get to come back as a fully enlightened being in your next life cycle.

You realize that Massachusetts is not the whole United States, right?

Which Constitution do you want? Connecticut?

The People of Connecticut acknowledging with gratitude, the good providence of God, in having permitted them to enjoy a free government; ...

We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Constitution of Massachusetts

I don't see GOD mentioned anywhere in the above. For all I know the "great Legislator of the universe" could have been Hamilton, Washington, anyone. So, what is your point?

I don't see GOD mentioned anywhere in the above. For all I know the "great Legislator of the universe" could have been Hamilton, Washington, anyone. So, what is your point?

I suppose your right. The Founders were secular.

Apparently, you don't believe that everyone is equal.

Not every person is morally equivilant. Not every country is morally equsl either. Currently, as the dominant culture, it is the perrogotive of the West to decide what is and isn't morally acceptable.

Not every person is morally equivilant. Not every country is morally equsl either. Currently, as the dominant culture, it is the perrogotive of the West to decide what is and isn't morally acceptable.

Yeah, but soon the entire world will be eating dogs when China outdoes the US...

But, isn't at least a bit of western morales always and forever embedded in every nationality ever since the creation of the UN and its almight ability to determine which country to sanction for which international law violation?

Not every person is morally equivilant. Not every country is morally equsl either. Currently, as the dominant culture, it is the perrogotive of the West to decide what is and isn't morally acceptable.

and when we disagree amongst oursleves, such as the invasion of iraq and this squalid little incident in the lebanon?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

A sixteen year old girl who had endured torture and rape was hanged for "crimes against chastity". Since the age of consent is 9 in Iran, and under their judicial system it's almost impossible to prove that it was rape instead of consentual sex, she was unable to prove that she didn't want some 51 year old guy banging her.

When are people in Iran going to realize that their government sanctions child rape and executes innocent victims? When will there be a secular revolution to overthrow and punish the Islamic revolution in that place?

They hang homosexuals over there. That'll get the Peaceniks in a tizzy-War for homosexuals?