NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: This is outrageous! If these people truly believed the Bible ( Or perhaps even READ it! ), they would know that Jesus emphasised being at peace with ALL people, not try to foce your peculiar version of "christianity" down others' throats! Are we heading toward sectarian strife? Or strife between so-called "christans" and everyone else?


Families Challenging Religious Influence
in Delaware Schools (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/29/us/29delaware.html?th&emc=th)


By NEELA BANERJEE
Published: July 29, 2006

GEORGETOWN, Del. — After her family moved to this small town 30 years ago, Mona Dobrich grew up as the only Jew in school. Mrs. Dobrich, 39, married a local man, bought the house behind her parents’ home and brought up her two children as Jews.

For years, she and her daughter, Samantha, listened to Christian prayers at public school potlucks, award dinners and parent-teacher group meetings, she said. But at Samantha’s high school graduation in June 2004, a minister’s prayer proclaiming Jesus as the only way to the truth nudged Mrs. Dobrich to act.

“It was as if no matter how much hard work, no matter how good a person you are, the only way you’ll ever be anything is through Jesus Christ,” Mrs. Dobrich said. “He said those words, and I saw Sam’s head snap and her start looking around, like, ‘Where’s my mom? Where’s my mom?’ And all I wanted to do was run up and take her in my arms.”

After the graduation, Mrs. Dobrich asked the Indian River district school board to consider prayers that were more generic and, she said, less exclusionary. As news of her request spread, many local Christians saw it as an effort to limit their free exercise of religion, residents said. Anger spilled on to talk radio, in letters to the editor and at school board meetings attended by hundreds of people carrying signs praising Jesus. [ Which, of course, is the "Christian" thing to do! :( ]

“What people here are saying is, ‘Stop interfering with our traditions, stop interfering with our faith and leave our country the way we knew it to be,’ ” said Dan Gaffney, a host at WGMD, a talk radio station in Rehoboth, and a supporter of prayer in the school district.

After receiving several threats [ Which, of course, is the "Christian" thing to do! :( ], Mrs. Dobrich took her son, Alex, to Wilmington in the fall of 2004, planning to stay until the controversy blew over. It never has.

The Dobriches eventually sued the Indian River School District, challenging what they asserted was the pervasiveness of religion in the schools and seeking financial damages. They have been joined by “the Does,” a family still in the school district who have remained anonymous because of the response against the Dobriches.

Meanwhile, a Muslim family in another school district here in Sussex County has filed suit, alleging proselytizing in the schools and the harassment of their daughters.

The move to Wilmington, the Dobriches said, wrecked them financially, leading them to sell their house and their daughter to drop out of Columbia University.

The dispute here underscores the rising tensions over religion in public schools.

“We don’t have data on the number of lawsuits, but anecdotally, people think it has never been so active — the degree to which these conflicts erupt in schools and the degree to which they are litigated,” said Tom Hutton, a staff lawyer at the National School Boards Association.

More religion probably exists in schools now than in decades because of the role religious conservatives play in politics and the passage of certain education laws over the last 25 years, including the Equal Access Act in 1984, said Charles C. Haynes, senior scholar at the First Amendment Center, a research and education group.

“There are communities largely of one faith, and despite all the court rulings and Supreme Court decisions, they continue to promote one faith,” Mr. Haynes said. “They don’t much care what the minority complains about. They’re just convinced that what they are doing is good for kids and what America is all about.” [ Which, of course, is the "Christian" thing to do! :( ]

Dr. Donald G. Hattier, a member of the Indian River school board, said the district had changed many policies in response to Mrs. Dobrich’s initial complaints. But the board unanimously rejected a proposed settlement of the Dobriches’ lawsuit.

“There were a couple of provisions that were unacceptable to the board,” said Jason Gosselin, a lawyer for the board. “The parties are working in good faith to move closer to settlement.”

Until recently, it was safe to assume that everyone in the Indian River district was Christian, said the Rev. Mark Harris, an Episcopal priest at St. Peter’s Church in Lewes.

But much has changed in Sussex County over the last 30 years. The county, in southern Delaware, has resort enclaves like Rehoboth Beach, to which outsiders bring their cash and, often, liberal values. Inland, in the area of Georgetown, the county seat, the land is still a lush patchwork of corn and soybean fields, with a few poultry plants. But developers are turning more fields into tracts of rambling homes. The Hispanic population is booming. There are enough Reform Jews, Muslims and Quakers to set up their own centers and groups, Mr. Harris said.

In interviews with a dozen people here and comments on the radio by a half-dozen others, the overwhelming majority insisted, usually politely, that prayer should stay in the schools.

“We have a way of doing things here, and it’s not going to change to accommodate a very small minority,’’ said Kenneth R. Stevens, 41, a businessman sitting in the Georgetown Diner. “If they feel singled out, they should find another school or excuse themselves from those functions. It’s our way of life.” [ Which, of course, is the "Christian" thing to do! :( ]

The Dobrich and Doe legal complaint portrays a district in which children were given special privileges for being in Bible club, Bibles were distributed in 2003 at an elementary school, Christian prayer was routine at school functions and teachers evangelized. [ Which, of course, is the "Christian" thing to do! :( ]

“Because Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, I will speak out for him,” said the Rev. Jerry Fike of Mount Olivet Brethren Church, who gave the prayer at Samantha’s graduation. “The Bible encourages that.” Mr. Fike continued: “Ultimately, he is the one I have to please. If doing that places me at odds with the law of the land, I still have to follow him.” [ Which, of course, is the "Christian" thing to do! :( ]

Mrs. Dobrich, who is Orthodox, said that when she was a girl, Christians here had treated her faith with respectful interest. Now, she said, her son was ridiculed in school for wearing his yarmulke. She described a classmate of his drawing a picture of a pathway to heaven for everyone except “Alex the Jew.” [ Which, of course, is the "Christian" thing to do! :( ]

Mrs. Dobrich’s decision to leave her hometown and seek legal help came after a school board meeting in August 2004 on the issue of prayer. Dr. Hattier had called WGMD to discuss the issue, and Mr. Gaffney and others encouraged people to go the meeting. Hundreds showed up.

A homemaker active in her children’s schools, Mrs. Dobrich said she had asked the board to develop policies that would leave no one feeling excluded because of faith. People booed and rattled signs that read “Jesus Saves,” she recalled.[ Which, of course, is the "Christian" thing to do! :( ] Her son had written a short statement, but he felt so intimidated that his sister read it for him. In his statement, Alex, who was 11 then, said: “I feel bad when kids in my class call me ‘Jew boy.’ I do not want to move away from the house I have lived in forever.”

Later, another speaker turned to Mrs. Dobrich and said, according to several witnesses, “If you want people to stop calling him ‘Jew boy,’ you tell him to give his heart to Jesus.” [ God help us all! ]

Immediately afterward, the Dobriches got threatening phone calls. [ Which, of course, is the "Christian" thing to do! :( ] Samantha had enrolled in Columbia, and Mrs. Dobrich decided to go to Wilmington temporarily.

But the controversy simmered, keeping Mrs. Dobrich and Alex away. The cost of renting an apartment in Wilmington led the Dobriches to sell their home here. Mrs. Dobrich’s husband, Marco, a school bus driver and transportation coordinator, makes about $30,000 a year and has stayed in town to care for Mrs. Dobrich’s ailing parents. Mr. Dobrich declined to comment. Samantha left Columbia because of the financial strain.

The only thing to flourish, Mrs. Dobrich said, was her faith. Her children, she said, “have so much pride in their religion now.”

“Alex wears his yarmulke all the time. He never takes it off.”

They're clearly not Catholic: the Catholics have something called "universal salvation."

There have been no greater advocates for atheism and agnosticism than what passes for conservative christianity in the US today.

Perhaps these jesusfreaks would like to return to burning people at the stake for the ultimate crime of not worshipping their mythological god. After all, it is the xtian thing to do.

There have been no greater advocates for atheism and agnosticism than what passes for conservative christianity in the US today.


agreed.....for the prayer thing i dont care as i am not religious...but i can see it from their point of view.

what really burn me was that his religion was used as a joke for the kids. And you know what it is the parents who teach the kids that. makes me sick.

Perhaps these jesusfreaks would like to return to burning people at the stake for the ultimate crime of not worshipping their mythological god. After all, it is the xtian thing to do.
Don't give them any ideas. After all, these are probably the same folks who are reveling in this game (http://www.leftbehindgames.com) where they get to kick a little heathen ass all in the name of Jeebus.

Don't give them any ideas. After all, these are probably the same folks who are reveling in this game (http://www.leftbehindgames.com) where they get to kick a little heathen ass all in the name of Jeebus.

Can't fault them for the game: There used to be a computer game called Christians ans Lions. Anyway, I wouldn't be giving them any ideas. I've heard jesusfreaks saying we should return to the burning times up to 10 years ago.

We've been heading towards sectarian strife for a LOOOOONG time Eut. It's because of the fact that most religions want to shove their religion down everbody elses throat, and the fact that we HAVE most religions in America, thereby leading to conflict in between religions. It's kind of like street gangs, just with less violence and more propaganda.

The world would be so much better without Christianity.

Second thread in one day that made me remember why I say things like I hate people.

I hate people. Especially asswipes who are too close-minded and close-hearted to think of anyone else.

*blink*

I love that the wise members of nationstates wouldn't dream of resorting to hate and violence to describe the motions of some misguided Yankees. Such maturity. :rolleyes:

Anyway... what the hell is this school district doing? I've been around Public Schools for years down here, and we all know that any form of religion has no place in school. Doesn't matter who you worship, kick their ass out the door! Heck, history teachers can't even talk about the crusades!

Sad. Too bad people won't learn.

I for one am appalled at these fellow 'Christians'.


“If you want people to stop calling him ‘Jew boy,’ you tell him to give his heart to Jesus.” :mad: :(

As a born again Christian with a Jewish roommate and a gf whose father's side of the family is Jewish, I am calling these so-called Christians to account.

A christian does not make threats against other religions for it is not the christian way though I know it happens which saddens me :(

If I lived in that town, I would have called every church in the area and give them a religious history lesson that seems to get lost in this day and age.

As a christian, I treat all religions equally though I may not agree with their beliefs. With my non-christian friends, we chat and discuss our religions together and without contempt, for the most part, and learn from one another.

I really do believe that Christians today need to get back to what being a Christian is all about and to show it instead of making fun of other religions.

After the graduation, Mrs. Dobrich asked the Indian River district school board to consider prayers that were more generic and, she said, less exclusionary.

The article said this was a PUBLIC school. The prayers should not be more generic, they should be non-existant! The only praying there should be in the school system is that which is self initiated.

edit: You know, like every student does right before a test . . . :)

The article said this was a PUBLIC school. The prayers should not be more generic, they should be non-existant! The only praying there should be in the school system is that which is self initiated.

Now there is also that.

*blink*

I love that the wise members of nationstates wouldn't dream of resorting to hate and violence to describe the motions of some misguided Yankees. Such maturity. :rolleyes:

Anyway... what the hell is this school district doing? I've been around Public Schools for years down here, and we all know that any form of religion has no place in school. Doesn't matter who you worship, kick their ass out the door! Heck, history teachers can't even talk about the crusades!

Sad. Too bad people won't learn.
I call bullshit on the bolded part. There may be individual teachers who don't want to teach it, or who avoid it, or the Crusades may not be part of the curriculum, but no way is there a policy where history teachers are banned from talking about the Crusades.

Yeah, the religion ban doesn't apply to places where religion is of historical significance(read religious wars).

I call bullshit on the bolded part. There may be individual teachers who don't want to teach it, or who avoid it, or the Crusades may not be part of the curriculum, but no way is there a policy where history teachers are banned from talking about the Crusades.

Where is this allegedly banned crusades policy? In the States, I've heard from public school teachers who have been institutionally required to teach creationism or intelligent design, or simply, prohibited from teaching evolution theory. Shocking, truly. Well, at least the first time I heard of it. But, alas, the society of much of America has been polarized into fundamentalism, and it is especially prevalent in rural areas.

[Truth is far more wacked than most any fiction, including most of our dreams about what actually constitutes reality. Quoth the fat sheriff of inwhichever county is Moses Lake, WA: "Son, your constitution doesn't ap-ply in mah town!"]

Where is this allegedly banned crusades policy? In the States, I've heard from public school teachers who have been institutionally required to teach creationism or intelligent design, or simply, prohibited from teaching evolution theory. Shocking, truly. Well, at least the first time I heard of it. But, alas, the society of much of America has been polarized into fundamentalism, and it is especially prevalent in rural areas.

[Truth is far more wacked than most any fiction, including most of our dreams about what actually constitutes reality. Quoth the fat sheriff of inwhichever county is Moses Lake, WA: "Son, your constitution doesn't ap-ply in mah town!"]
Ask the guy who made the claim.

I Fell sorry for the majority of christians who are draged down by the minority who behave like children/phycopaths.

You ever attended public school in an affluent part of South Florida? I did. The Jews force their religion down your throat there and act like it’s a “cultural experience.” Bullshit. Half the class was Jewish.
I don't think they were trying to convert, though. Just assert the fact that they run the place, like these Christians seem to be doing here.

“We have a way of doing things here, and it’s not going to change to accommodate a very small minority,’’ said Kenneth R. Stevens, 41, a businessman sitting in the Georgetown Diner. “If they feel singled out, they should find another school or excuse themselves from those functions. It’s our way of life."

And of course, these 'outsiders' should take their money too, and whatever assets they've invested in the state.

It'd be interesting to see what this person would think when his town starts to rot from lack of cash influx.

I Fell sorry for the majority of christians who are draged down by the minority who behave like children/phycopaths.
I think you got that backwards.

I think you got that backwards.
He should feel sorry for the minority of children who are being dragged down by a majority of Christians.

You ever attended public school in an affluent part of South Florida? I did. The Jews force their religion down your throat there and act like it’s a “cultural experience.” Bullshit. Half the class was Jewish.
I don't think they were trying to convert, though. Just assert the fact that they run the place, like these Christians seem to be doing here.
I teach college in an affluent part of south Florida, so half my classes last year were Jewish, and they were decidedly not pushy about it, certainly no more pushy than my christian students were. Unless by "running the place" you mean "demanding the same consideration other religious groups regularly receive."

I teach college in an affluent part of south Florida, so half my classes last year were Jewish, and they were decidedly not pushy about it, certainly no more pushy than my christian students were. Unless by "running the place" you mean "demanding the same consideration other religious groups regularly receive."

Which, in my opinion, is only fair and proper.

I teach college in an affluent part of south Florida, so half my classes last year were Jewish, and they were decidedly not pushy about it, certainly no more pushy than my christian students were. Unless by "running the place" you mean "demanding the same consideration other religious groups regularly receive."
No, I can see what he means. As in any group there are those that assert that they're superior just for the fuck of it. Several Russians at my school do it on a regular basis.

I think you got that backwards.

I'll rephrase:

I feel sorry for the moderate christians who are draged down by those who act like phycopaths.

There have been no greater advocates for atheism and agnosticism than what passes for conservative christianity in the US today.
I agree. They're their own worst enemies.

agreed.....for the prayer thing i dont care as i am not religious...but i can see it from their point of view.

what really burn me was that his religion was used as a joke for the kids. And you know what it is the parents who teach the kids that. makes me sick.
Kids will almost always carry something their parents believe to the logical ( or illogical ) extreme. Parents who indicate that someone else is "going to hell" because they don't believe the same way they do are in effect giving their children permission to persecute that someone.

Kids will almost always carry something their parents believe to the logical ( or illogical ) extreme. Parents who indicate that someone else is "going to hell" because they don't believe the same way they do are in effect giving their children permission to persecute that someone.

Which should not be occuring at all.

We've been heading towards sectarian strife for a LOOOOONG time Eut. It's because of the fact that most religions want to shove their religion down everbody elses throat, and the fact that we HAVE most religions in America, thereby leading to conflict in between religions. It's kind of like street gangs, just with less violence and more propaganda.
What worries me is that it seems to be more acceptable for some "christians" to resort to borderline acts of intimidation and violence as time goes on. There's no hope for any of us if this becomes acceptable behavior for even a significant proportion of "christians." :(

The world would be so much better without Christianity.
I disagree. The world would be so much better without "christians" who have NO idea what their Bible says.

They're clearly not Catholic: the Catholics have something called "universal salvation."
That's why I'm proud to be one, and, unfortunately, is why we're one of the few fellow Christian people that evangelicals continually mock, slander, and attack.

There's nothing worse than an evangelical seated on his/her high horse of faith, painted in the colors of the American flag, self-afflicted stigmata wounds from hands to feet, wielding the sword of "truth" in the name of "peace." Fuck them.

I really do believe that Christians today need to get back to what being a Christian is all about and to show it instead of making fun of other religions.
Exactly.

I Fell sorry for the majority of christians who are draged down by the minority who behave like children/phycopaths.
They're not Christians. "By their works will you know them."

I think you got that backwards.
No, I don't think he has it wrong. You never hear of most Christians because they're busy taking care of their families and doing good works, not out protesting because Christianity isn't the State religion.

Which should not be occuring at all.
Exactly.

Sometimes I feel like vomitting at the unsightly behavior of other Christians. I have such a hard time even calling myself that anymore. I am embarrassed by them so frequently. I can't even defend thier actions here. They are just barbaric and foolish. My only hope is that I can distance myself from the crazy neo-con evangelicals that do this ridiculous crap. Christianity is not about persecuting other religions. It is about loving one's neighbor. It is about being kind and humble. It is about having self-control and faith. It is about evagelizing, but how can that evagelization be effective when so many Christians act like hipocrites. Christians are supposed to reach the world by showing thier love to the world. By acting like Christ did. Caring for the sick, the widows, the poor, the orphans, not acting like a bunch of fools.

Which, in my opinion, is only fair and proper.
I agree. Besides, it meant that when half my class was gone for Yom Kippur, I could just cancel class altogether and get a day off myself. It was a win-win. ;)

That's why I'm proud to be one, and, unfortunately, is why we're one of the few fellow Christian people that evangelicals continually mock, slander, and attack.

There's nothing worse than an evangelical seated on his/her high horse of faith, painted in the colors of the American flag, self-afflicted stigmata wounds from hands to feet, wielding the sword of "truth" in the name of "peace." Fuck them.
Careful--Catholics have their own subset of psychos. Those Mel Gibson's dad types who think the church has gone soft since Vatican 2 people are as scary as any fundy protestant group. They were the ones pushing for the excommunication of anyone who voted for a pro-choice candidate in 2004, remember.

I agree. Besides, it meant that when half my class was gone for Yom Kippur, I could just cancel class altogether and get a day off myself. It was a win-win. ;)

Hehe. I would not mind if we had Jewish Holidays off. Why not toss in the Muslim ones while we are at it. :D

Well then again, I do want to get out of school in a timely fashion and if we did that, then I'm stuck :(

I call bullshit on the bolded part. There may be individual teachers who don't want to teach it, or who avoid it, or the Crusades may not be part of the curriculum, but no way is there a policy where history teachers are banned from talking about the Crusades.

Neither of My HS teachers would. Your mileage may vary. My College world history teacher had no problem with it.

Neither of My HS teachers would. Your mileage may vary. My College world history teacher had no problem with it.
Big difference between "won't teach it" and "can't teach it."

For better or for worse, America has always been a christian nation. Christianity has influenced everything from the declaration of independence to manifest destiny. To deny this would be intellectually dishonest.

The First Amendment gives Americans freedom of religon, but not freedom FROM religion. Thus, if some born-again idiot says at a graduation ceremony that "jesus is the way", he has every right to say that without getting sued by PC freaks. He's simply expressing his faith. Similarily, if your history teacher wants to lead a class prayer, he should be allowed to do so, as long as it doesn't impede the educational process. He's simply expressing his faith. Similarily, if that judge down in Alabama wanted to have his ten commandmants nailed on the courthouse door, he should be allowed to that also. He's simply expressing his faith.

god has always been a part of American public life, just go to Washington DC, and look at the monuments there for yourself.

I feel bad for the kid, the other kids should be respectful of him. Ideally, he would accept the truth of Christ, but he is a young kid, and also, the truth of Christ is not revealed by forced conversion, it requires a conversion of heart.

However, when you move into a community, you don't have the right to cancel out all the traditions in the community. The Lord's Prayer doesn't even mention Jesus, but it's offensive because it was ordained by Him I suppose.

Christians technically have to end their prayers "through Jesus Christ." There has to be a compromise that can be reached.

The Jewish people have their own tradition, and it's a fine tradition. Unlike this case, most of the time it's Orthodox Jews that don't complain because they are so confident in their faith, and hearing a Lord's Prayer doesn't cause them to have doubts.

I feel bad for the kid, the other kids should be respectful of him. Ideally, he would accept the truth of Christ, but he is a young kid, and also, the truth of Christ is not revealed by forced conversion, it requires a conversion of heart.

You are right that it requires conversion of the heart but what makes you think that he will accept the truth about Christ?

However, when you move into a community, you don't have the right to cancel out all the traditions in the community. The Lord's Prayer doesn't even mention Jesus, but it's offensive because it was ordained by Him I suppose.

The Lord's prayer is offensive? :confused: I do agree that you can't cancel out the traditions of the community but also, the community needs to show tolerance of other faiths.

Christians technically have to end their prayers "through Jesus Christ." There has to be a compromise that can be reached.

We have to end our prayers "through Jesus Christ"? Hmm yea. I do not think so.

The Jewish people have their own tradition, and it's a fine tradition. Unlike this case, most of the time it's Orthodox Jews that don't complain because they are so confident in their faith, and hearing a Lord's Prayer doesn't cause them to have doubts.

Are you sure about this?

For better or for worse, America has always been a christian nation. Christianity has influenced everything from the declaration of independence to manifest destiny. To deny this would be intellectually dishonest.

The First Amendment gives Americans freedom of religon, but not freedom FROM religion. Thus, if some born-again idiot says at a graduation ceremony that "jesus is the way", he has every right to say that without getting sued by PC freaks. He's simply expressing his faith. Similarily, if your history teacher wants to lead a class prayer, he should be allowed to do so, as long as it doesn't impede the educational process. He's simply expressing his faith. Similarily, if that judge down in Alabama wanted to have his ten commandmants nailed on the courthouse door, he should be allowed to that also. He's simply expressing his faith.

god has always been a part of American public life, just go to Washington DC, and look at the monuments there for yourself.
The future holds a true promise of the seperation of church and state. The mistakes of the past will be corrected.

For better or for worse, America has always been a christian nation. Christianity has influenced everything from the declaration of independence to manifest destiny. To deny this would be intellectually dishonest.

The Declaration of Independence was largely written because of unfair taxes and no representation in the British government. Also because of the Boston Massacre, even though it was provoked.

The First Amendment gives Americans freedom of religon, but not freedom FROM religion. Thus, if some born-again idiot says at a graduation ceremony that "jesus is the way", he has every right to say that without getting sued by PC freaks. He's simply expressing his faith. Similarily, if your history teacher wants to lead a class prayer, he should be allowed to do so, as long as it doesn't impede the educational process. He's simply expressing his faith. Similarily, if that judge down in Alabama wanted to have his ten commandmants nailed on the courthouse door, he should be allowed to that also. He's simply expressing his faith.

A class prayer is forcing religion upon someone. Apparently you seem to think that the class consists entirely of 1.) the teacher and 2.) empty desks. And the judge cannot have the Ten Commandments naild on the courtroom door because he doesn't own the place.

god has always been a part of American public life, just go to Washington DC, and look at the monuments there for yourself.

I don't see any monuements of god, unless the giant white penis-thing counts.

Where is this allegedly banned crusades policy? In the States, I've heard from public school teachers who have been institutionally required to teach creationism or intelligent design, or simply, prohibited from teaching evolution theory. Shocking, truly. Well, at least the first time I heard of it. But, alas, the society of much of America has been polarized into fundamentalism, and it is especially prevalent in rural areas.

[Truth is far more wacked than most any fiction, including most of our dreams about what actually constitutes reality. Quoth the fat sheriff of inwhichever county is Moses Lake, WA: "Son, your constitution doesn't ap-ply in mah town!"]
Grant County. Thanks for the reminder...:(

For better or for worse, America has always been a christian nation. Christianity has influenced everything from the declaration of independence to manifest destiny. To deny this would be intellectually dishonest.
Speaking of which, I would charge you to go re-read the founding documents. Because, oddly, for a supposed Christian nation, there is no mention of God OR Christ in the US Constitution. Strangely enough, for a supposed Christian nation, one of the first treaties we entered into (written under President Washington, signed by President Adams, ratified by the Senate with most of the founders in it) states quite clearly that the US is not a Christain nation.

The First Amendment gives Americans freedom of religon, but not freedom FROM religion.
No, no... Go read the Federalist Papers and the writings of Madison, as well as Jefferson, they mean freedom FROM religion.

Thus, if some born-again idiot says at a graduation ceremony that "jesus is the way", he has every right to say that without getting sued by PC freaks. He's simply expressing his faith.
And he has every right to say that, at home, in his church, in public space, but not at a school sponcered, government/tax paid for event.

Similarily, if your history teacher wants to lead a class prayer, he should be allowed to do so, as long as it doesn't impede the educational process. He's simply expressing his faith.
No, as a teacher the law is quite clear, when I am at school and on the clock, I am paid through government monies (Tax dollars) I AM a government offical and cannot profess my faith at that time. At home, in church, in public, yes, at school, no.

Similarily, if that judge down in Alabama wanted to have his ten commandmants nailed on the courthouse door, he should be allowed to that also. He's simply expressing his faith.
See above, same applies to judges and he didn't even own the building.

god has always been a part of American public life, just go to Washington DC, and look at the monuments there for yourself.
Riiiiiiight.

Speaking of which, I would charge you to go re-read the founding documents. Because, oddly, for a supposed Christian nation, there is no mention of God OR Christ in the US Constitution. Strangely enough, for a supposed Christian nation, one of the first treaties we entered into (written under President Washington, signed by President Adams, ratified by the Senate with most of the founders in it) states quite clearly that the US is not a Christain nation.

Do you mean the Treaty of Paris, which ended the Revolutionary War?

In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
.
.
.
Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY (SEAL)
JOHN ADAMS (SEAL)
B. FRANKLIN (SEAL)
JOHN JAY (SEAL)

There's a reason why church is a completely different building from school, obviously cuz they serve different purposes.

Do you mean the Treaty of Paris, which ended the Revolutionary War?

In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
.
.
.
Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY (SEAL)
JOHN ADAMS (SEAL)
B. FRANKLIN (SEAL)
JOHN JAY (SEAL)

The Constitution was written after the Revolutionary war, genius. There were no presidents before the Constitution. READ A HISTORY TEXTBOOK!

Do you mean the Treaty of Paris, which ended the Revolutionary War?

In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
.
.
.
Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY (SEAL)
JOHN ADAMS (SEAL)
B. FRANKLIN (SEAL)
JOHN JAY (SEAL)

I do not believe that is what he is talking about.

"There's a Jew in my school! Oh noes!!!!!111" :eek:

I oppose harassment of the boy strongly. He seems like a good kid, and, at the end, it turns out he believes even more strongly in his faith as a result.

This is my feeling, and it's only a hunch, that they did leave him alone, until his mother demanded that the school drop all prayers.

If you truly believe in your faith, it shouldn't be a big deal if other people want to pray.

Maybe not in this case, but in most of these cases, I sense the real issue is not really over faith, but over morality, and right and wrong.

The Constitution was written after the Revolutionary war, genius. There were no presidents before the Constitution. READ A HISTORY TEXTBOOK!

Do not forget the Article of Confederation. That was adopted during the Revolutionary War.

I do not believe that is what he is talking about.

I know, it's the famed Treaty of Tripoli, which I believed was negotiated by Jefferson, with a Islamic nation (Libya). Jefferson was trying to convey to Libyans, who had been kidnapping American sailors (hence the reason for the Treaty), that America wasn't a Christian nation in the same sense as the Europeans, so the Libyans had nothing to fear from the United States.

I know, it's the famed Treaty of Tripoli, which I believed was negotiated by Jefferson, with a Islamic nation (Libya). Jefferson was trying to convey to Libyans, who had been kidnapping American sailors (hence the reason for the Treaty), that America wasn't a Christian nation in the same sense as the Europeans, so the Libyans had nothing to fear from the United States.

It is the Treaty of Tripoli. Most notably Article 11

The Treaty is notable for Article 11, from Joel Barlow's English translation, which reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." (taken from Wikipedia)

I do not think it was negotiated by Jefferson however.

Here's a pithy little number that gave me a wry smile as I recalled the Christian indoctrination I was forced through at school in the UK. It takes years to break free (if you ever manage it) once religion has been forced on you from an early age. I see that indoctrination as a form of child abuse.

Yes, I am aware that's a strong statement. Forcing vicious and mythological concepts like hell, damnation, blood-sacrifice etc. on 5yr olds is also quite 'strong'.

"When I was a child I used to have an imaginary friend, he would listen to what I had to say, he would grant me wishes if I asked him and he would be with me wherever I went.
Then I grew up and stopped going to church.

Jimmy Carr".

For better or for worse, America has always been a christian nation. Christianity has influenced everything from the declaration of independence to manifest destiny. To deny this would be intellectually dishonest.

The First Amendment gives Americans freedom of religon, but not freedom FROM religion. Thus, if some born-again idiot says at a graduation ceremony that "jesus is the way", he has every right to say that without getting sued by PC freaks. He's simply expressing his faith. Similarily, if your history teacher wants to lead a class prayer, he should be allowed to do so, as long as it doesn't impede the educational process. He's simply expressing his faith. Similarily, if that judge down in Alabama wanted to have his ten commandmants nailed on the courthouse door, he should be allowed to that also. He's simply expressing his faith.


Your post is so full of errors I don't know where to begin. First, the declaration of independance is irrelevant in american law. It has no authority what so ever.

Next, the history teacher, you make two mistakes here:

1) his job is to teach history. ANY TIME spent not in the function of HIS JOB is taking away from class time, thus his time spent praying is time spent NOT teaching, which is an impediment of the educational process.

2) As a public teacher, he pulls a salary from the state. Every single second of time he spends on the job is money that comes out of the public trust. To allow him to spend some time praying to the class, is money he has earned, from the state, in prayer. This is unacceptable. Not ONE SINGLE CENT of the government funds should be spent on actions that promote one religion over the other. If he is on the job, he is under the pay of the government, his time is NOT his own, and he must abide by the laws of the government. And if he is being paid by the government, then his actions are funded by the government, and to allow this would allow prayer to be funded by the government.

If a teacher wants to pray, let him do it in his home, or anywhere that will allow him, on his own time. If he must pray in school, let him run a prayer session on his own time, I'm fine with that, as long as the school provides equal access to everyone.

The judge, this one I love. Newsflash. That courthouse is NOT HIS PROPERTY. It is the property of the United States government, or the government of the state. It is NOT HIS to do with as he pleases. He wants the 10 commandments on the door? Tough, it's not his door. He has no more right to put the 10 commandments on the courthouse as he does to put it on MY house. It...is...not...his...property. It is the property of the state, and property of the state must follow the restructions placed on it by law.

When I was a child I used to have an imaginary friend, he would listen to what I had to say, he would grant me wishes if I asked him and he would be with me wherever I went.
Then I grew up and stopped going to church.

You're not liberated. Maybe you misunderstood the faith as a child.

God isn't supposed to "grant our wishes." It is our duty to give him thanks and praise for our mere existance. Even if we are poor, homeless, and sick, we would have no less reason to give Him our highest praise.

You're not liberated. Maybe you misunderstood the faith as a child.

God isn't supposed to "grant our wishes." It is our duty to give him thanks and praise for our mere existance. Even if we are poor, homeless, and sick, we would have no less reason to give Him our highest praise.
Well, that's a shitty existence. Thanking an invisuble sky pixie we don't even know exists just because their parents were horny.

You're not liberated. Maybe you misunderstood the faith as a child.

God isn't supposed to "grant our wishes." It is our duty to give him thanks and praise for our mere existance. Even if we are poor, homeless, and sick, we would have no less reason to give Him our highest praise.

I don't know if you got it, but that was a quote....

Well, that's a shitty existence. Thanking an invisuble sky pixie we don't even know exists just because their parents were horny.

Neo Kervoskia, are you an Englishman?

We all deserve punishment for violating the moral law, and it is very just. Each of us is convicted by our own conscience.

Neo Kervoskia, are you an Englishman?

We all deserve punishment for violating the moral law, and it is very just. Each of us is convicted by our own conscience.
Good. Then leave that poor God fellow out of it and let the conscience have the hot seat.

Ever read Crime and Punishment?

Well, that's a shitty existence. Thanking an invisuble sky pixie we don't even know exists just because their parents were horny.

Why do you keep using the term pixy! It was funny the first time, but a pixy is so unlike the idea of God it is getting stupid now.

Good. Then leave that poor God fellow out of it and let the conscience have the hot seat.

Ever read Crime and Punishment?
The D-Man is my favorite Christian.

You're not liberated. Maybe you misunderstood the faith as a child.

God isn't supposed to "grant our wishes." It is our duty to give him thanks and praise for our mere existance. Even if we are poor, homeless, and sick, we would have no less reason to give Him our highest praise.

It's a quote from Jimmy Carr, a British comedian. I credited it.

I misunderstood? Well, having been force-fed faith by so many Christians all my life, having been baptised, confirmed, attending many churches regularly, going to Bible classes, having been a fervent believer myself....

I don't think so. I understand perfectly. And now I have just become a father I shall try as best I can to shield my son from the warped values that religion brings and the harm it can do. I shall teach him to respect people's right to have a faith, but not to respect the faith itself. Until he's old enough to make his own mind up, then it's over to him to be what he wants to be.

You're not liberated. Maybe you misunderstood the faith as a child.

God isn't supposed to "grant our wishes." It is our duty to give him thanks and praise for our mere existance. Even if we are poor, homeless, and sick, we would have no less reason to give Him our highest praise.

Ask and thy shall receive.

Ask and thy shall receive.

Dear Buddha, please give me a pony, and a plastic rocket.

Why do you keep using the term pixy! It was funny the first time, but a pixy is so unlike the idea of God it is getting stupid now.

Really? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixie_%28glamour_model%29)

Dear Buddha, please give me a pony, and a plastic rocket.

Buddha doesn't grant things my friend.

I misunderstood? Well, having been force-fed faith by so many Christians all my life, having been baptised, confirmed, attending many churches regularly, going to Bible classes, having been a fervent believer myself....


There is nothing wrong with getting taught the values of Christianity, if you refuse to believe or follow them but your parents still force the values apon you then they are not real Christians. Meaning you don't understand true christianity.


I don't think so. I understand perfectly. And now I have just become a father I shall try as best I can to shield my son from the warped values that religion brings and the harm it can do. I shall teach him to respect people's right to have a faith, but not to respect the faith itself. Until he's old enough to make his own mind up, then it's over to him to be what he wants to be.

Warped values? What like love thy enemy? Do onto others as they would do onto you?

Or do you actually think that the BIBLE itself preaches racism or homophobia.

Really? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixie_%28glamour_model%29)

So Gods a model?

So Gods a model?
And a lesbian.

And a lesbian.

Meh, explains a lot.

I almost punched in my monitor multiple times reading that. It's absolute bullshit. Do these people have a fucking brain disease?

Oh, wait, they do - it's called religion.

:upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

Fuckers.

Ask and thy shall receive.

Hmm...I should ask the FSM for a new MP3 player...Preferably Sansa.

I almost punched in my monitor multiple times reading that. It's absolute bullshit. Do these people have a fucking brain disease?

Oh, wait, they do - it's called religion.

I see these sorts of posts all the time. They are so blatently trolling but no one cares!

you'd think that community would just start a private school.

I almost punched in my monitor multiple times reading that. It's absolute bullocks. Do these people have a fudge brain ailment?

Oh, wait, they do - it's called religion.

Fudge.

Free Mercantile States, for someone who calls people troll who disagree with you, you get bloody violent. I also had to censor your original post quite heavily, I bolded the parts I censored.

It was wrong for those students to punish the poor boy for the actions of his mother. The mother requested to end school prayer by virtue of a "dissenter's veto," but it should have been discussed rationally, not violently.

Dear Buddha, please give me a pony, and a plastic rocket.
You win 20,000 points.

you'd think that community would just start a private school.

That's why I yearn for the convertibility of public school dollars into scholarships, so that the middle and lower classes will have access to private schools, just like the rich already do.

hehe bullocks

And once again a perfectly good topic has been derailed by the "no separation of church and state" idiots. Sigh.:rolleyes:

And once again a perfectly good topic has been derailed by the "no separation of church and state" idiots. Sigh.:rolleyes:

I hope I am not in that crowd.

And once again a perfectly good topic has been derailed by the "no separation of church and state" idiots. Sigh.:rolleyes:
Where I'm from, we call this bizarre phenomenon "Debate".

0o

Buddha doesn't grant things my friend.

Whedon giveth, and Whedon taketh away.

Just wait 'till the ACLU here's about this. They'd rip both parties up. :p

Where I'm from, we call this bizarre phenomenon "Debate".

0o
There are some issues that should be beyond debate--the question of evolution versus intelligent design/creationism is a good one--because the debate is so one-sided that it's ridiculous, and those on the stupid end of the debate are, well, stupid. (I leave it to the class to figure out which side I'm calling stupid here.) And this is another one. To call the US a christian nation is to deliberately ignore two hundred plus years of history and copious amounts of evidence to the contrary. It's intellectual wankery at its very finest, and it's generally indulged in by those who have a dishonest agenda to push. It is, plainly and simply, a bullshit discussion.

Just wait 'till the ACLU here's about this. They'd rip both parties up. :p

The ACLU is already involved from what I've looked up.

Whedon giveth, and Whedon taketh away.

Actually, on advice from counsel, I suppose that should properly be "Whedon giveth, but Fox taketh away"

Actually, on advice from counsel, I suppose that should properly be "Whedon giveth, but Fox taketh away"

That last part makes absolutely no sense.

Zealots - those "Christians".

If J.C was The Real Deal he'd be ASHAMED to be associated with these...*withholding insults*...people.

No, I don't think he has it wrong. You never hear of most Christians because they're busy taking care of their families and doing good works, not out protesting because Christianity isn't the State religion.
Bullshit. They still won't vote for a poltician that isn't a Christan, and that's reason enough to loathe them, as if their relgion wasn't enough already.

Bullshit. They still won't vote for a poltician that isn't a Christan, and that's reason enough to loathe them, as if their relgion wasn't enough already.

What a extremely trolly post i don't no where to begin.

Bullshit. They still won't vote for a poltician that isn't a Christan ...
Now who's bullshitting? I know better. As a matter of fact, I know some very devout Christians who have consistently voted Democrat in every election.

You need to get your facts straight, dude.

Bullshit. They still won't vote for a poltician that isn't a Christan, and that's reason enough to loathe them, as if their relgion wasn't enough already.

I would love to know what made you an expert on every single Christian living in the US.

My primary school was quite sneaky about religion.

Every morning assembly we would sing Hyms, I dont think we really understood what we were singing about being so young, but every morning we'd have to sing hyms.

Our head master eventually erected a huge black metal cross on the side of the school hall, which didn't go down well with parents, and it wasn't until they confronted him about it that they learned we were singing hyms, and being read to from the bible in our english classes. (at 7 years old you dont think to mention it to your parents really)

They complained, and he was sacked.

It didnt do me any harm, but at the same time, it shouldn't be forced on pupils. If parents want their children to learn a certain type of religion, send them to that type of school.

The world would be so much better without Christianity.

I agree, but to make your statement more accurate, it should read "without religion".

I would love to know what made you an expert on every single Christian living in the US.
He created a giant database with information compiled by his army of Mole-Spies.

He created a giant database with information compiled by his army of Mole-Spies.

I wish I had mole-spies...

My primary school was quite sneaky about religion.

Every morning assembly we would sing Hyms, I dont think we really understood what we were singing about being so young, but every morning we'd have to sing hyms.



I'd agree. We did at mine too. We still do in a state secondry school. apparently some form of communal worship is mandatory in England. Our head master realy did say that. honest.

I agree, but to make your statement more accurate, it should read "without religion".

I agree, but religion can't be dropped very easily, unfortunately.

Reprehensible behavior on the part of the religious maniacs, these fine people deserve a great deal of respect for standing up to it.

Now who's bullshitting? I know better. As a matter of fact, I know some very devout Christians who have consistently voted Democrat in every election.

You need to get your facts straight, dude.
That's a pretty nonsensical post, Eut. You're acting like no Democrats are christians, when the fact is that more than 90% of the population of the US is christian. What I think he was saying is that an atheist can't get elected, no matter what party.

For better or for worse, America has always been a christian nation. Christianity has influenced everything from the declaration of independence to manifest destiny. To deny this would be intellectually dishonest.

Exactly right, except for the fact that your statement is entirly untrue.

Religion in schools? Although its a nice 40 minutes off of normal class where one can dream about things to do after school. I think Religion should be a private thing and should no be included in schools (unless they're private), politics or business.

Sometimes I wish there was a God and that he is sending all these self-proclaimed Christians to eternal damnation.