NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm still confused on this one. Those Christian fundies who are trying to take control of the U.S. government and turn it into the United Christian States -- how are they any different than the Islamic fundies who are taking control of their own governments and turning them into sharia nations? Isn't this just a big case of the pot calling the kettle black? Seems like the same thing to me.

You can't say that, or think it, or the terrorists win. 9/11!

:rolleyes:

The difference is the US ones haven't started blowing things up on a large scale yet. When I'm really pessimistic I figure they will be doing just that by the middle of this century.

Neither are very fun.:(

They both make God very happy as they vie for His attention.

...how are they any different...

Beheadings. That's one difference. I'm sure there's a few more.

I'm still confused on this one. Those Christian fundies who are trying to take control of the U.S. government and turn it into the United Christian States -- how are they any different than the Islamic fundies who are taking control of their own governments and turning them into sharia nations? Isn't this just a big case of the pot calling the kettle black? Seems like the same thing to me.

heres 10 differences

1) the USA has always had a pro-Christian government...no more now than ever, as oppsed to what the ayotollah did in Iran
2) Christians in America do not committ acts of terrorism on a daily basis, only a couple of wackos have and they have been punished by death penalty
3) the Christians in America are against gay marriage, the Muslims in the middle east kill gays for being gay
4) dissenting views in the press are tolerated
5) to get into Jerry falwells schools you dont have to sign a waver to be a stand by suicide bomber
6) free elections
7) Christians in America do not feel that it is ok to blow up a public market to make a point
8) fundamentalist muslims force women to give up all rights
9) the Pope condemns terrorism while radical Muslim leaders encourage it
10) Lookat our troops behavior and look at theirs...if you can call them troops, its a stretch

Would you feel safer in an al-queda hangout or the broadcasting soundstage of Trinity TV? Good grief. If this is not staggeringly obvious you really are not very observent of your surroundings.

heres 10 differences

1) the USA has always had a pro-Christian government...no more now than ever, as oppsed to what the ayotollah did in Iran
2) Christians in America do not committ acts of terrorism on a daily basis, only a couple of wackos have and they have been punished by death penalty
3) the Christians in America are against gay marriage, the Muslims in the middle east kill gays for being gay
4) dissenting views in the press are tolerated
5) to get into Jerry falwells schools you dont have to sign a waver to be a stand by suicide bomber
6) free elections
7) Christians in America do not feel that it is ok to blow up a public market to make a point
8) fundamentalist muslims force women to give up all rights
9) the Pope condemns terrorism while radical Muslim leaders encourage it
10) Lookat our troops behavior and look at theirs...if you can call them troops, its a stretch

Would you feel safer in an al-queda hangout or the broadcasting soundstage of Trinity TV? Good grief. If this is not staggeringly obvious you really are not very observent of your surroundings.

Yep.

You would think they would remember 9/11....

You would think they would remember 9/11....
Oh Jesus....

The word is fundamentalist. Do they allow you to butcher words in school?
If you are speaking of them both wanting to create theocracies then indeed they are the same.

If you veiw it from either of the opposing points of veiw it is the Dogma of the respective theocracy that is the difference.

Of course our two respective radical groups are also no different then those who crawl around this board who would impose Atheism upon a given nation.

Simply put your question has a bias against religion, which ignores the real problem and that is the position of radical extremism, any religion or socio-political movement can find it may develope a radical extremist fringe.

The word is fundamentalist. Do they allow you to butcher words in school?
If you are speaking of them both wanting to create theocracies then indeed they are the same.

If you veiw it from either of the opposing points of veiw it is the Dogma of the respective theocracy that is the difference.

Of course our two respective radical groups are also no different then those who crawl around this board who would impose Atheism upon a given nation.

Simply put your question has a bias against religion, which ignores the real problem and that is the position of radical extremism, any religion or socio-political movement can find it may develope a radical extremist fringe.

I wish I could put stuff like this into words

heres 10 differences

1) the USA has always had a pro-Christian government...no more now than ever, as oppsed to what the ayotollah did in Iran

But is it pro-fundamentalist Christians?

2) Christians in America do not committ acts of terrorism on a daily basis, only a couple of wackos have and they have been punished by death penalty.

Because all people in the Middle-East commit acts of terrorism every day.

3) the Christians in America are against gay marriage, the Muslims in the middle east kill gays for being gay

While fundamentalist Christians have said that we should kill homosexuals.

Oh, and my girlfriend is Christian and she is not against gay marriage. So are many more Christians.

4) dissenting views in the press are tolerated

You mean they are legal, not necissarily tolerated.

5) to get into Jerry falwells schools you dont have to sign a waver to be a stand by suicide bomber

Oh, but those same schools makes radical Muslims sign a waiver?

6) free elections

What just happened in Iraq?

7) Christians in America do not feel that it is ok to blow up a public market to make a point

Yeah, Timothy McVeigh got that it would be more affective to blow up a building.

8) fundamentalist muslims force women to give up all rights

And who says Christian fundamentalists don't want to do the same?

9) the Pope condemns terrorism while radical Muslim leaders encourage it

Who says the Pope is a leader of fundamentalist Christians?

10) Lookat our troops behavior and look at theirs...if you can call them troops, its a stretch

What makes you think everyone in the army is a fundamentalist Christian?

Would you feel safer in an al-queda hangout or the broadcasting soundstage of Trinity TV? Good grief. If this is not staggeringly obvious you really are not very observent of your surroundings.

Just like you aren't observant of how to spell "Al-Qaeda" or "observant"?

You can't say that, or think it, or the terrorists win. 9/11!

:rolleyes:

The difference is the US ones haven't started blowing things up on a large scale yet. When I'm really pessimistic I figure they will be doing just that by the middle of this century.

havent they,have you never heard of christian fundamentalists actually blowing up abortion clinices,threatening(sorry about spelling) doctors,protesting at gay mens funerals.One of them even decided to blow things up on a larger scale(bush in iraq)The main difference is that the middle eastern govenments have little or no control over islamic terrorists whereas the american police seem to be much more adept at preventing this sort of thing(please correct me if Im wrong)

Just because christian fundamentalists havent started suicide bombing everything that disagrees with their religion doesnt mean they wont get really mad one day and blow something up.
I agree with one of the earlier posts,the real problem is fundamentalist and the fact that some people are willing to kill others on a mass scale in the name of their beliefs,rather than killing fundamentalists(which by the way is what they want us to do because they become martyrs and this recruits more followers) perhaps we should be examining the sociological factors that lead peoplem to these extreme veiws?

In this country, I can tell a fundamentalist Christian that I'm not interested in hearing about his religion, please take it elsewhere and he/she may get upset, but he/she is not going to kill me. If I tell a fundamentalist Moslem, in his country, that I don't want to hear it, I could get shot, If I tell a fundamentalist Moslem in this country that I don't want to hear it, I would still be concerned about my safety.

I don't like fundamentalists of any stripe, but, for the time being at least, we're physically, if not intellectually. safer around fundamentalist Christians and Jews.

They differ on scale/willingness to commit violence. The fundamental willingness to impose their beliefs on others, and those beliefs themselves are not terribly different.

All things considered I'd rather deal with a (current) fundamentalist Christian than a muslim version. But I'd argue/fight against either if they attempted to impose their government on me.

how are they any different than the Islamic fundies?

One has a cool mint flavor.

You would think they would remember 9/11....

Remember what?

The tired old "Christian Fundamentalists don't behead people" canard.

First, the United States is a republic with a long established tradition and history of respecting human rights and rules of law- even if Il Bushe is trying to make it into an Imperial Presidency. Most of the Middle East countries where the Islamic Fundamentalists have a close ear to government if they don't actually run it don't even have the slightest pretense of being a republic that respects human rights and rules of law.

So can you honestly say that if the Christian Taliban had absolute, complete control over the United States that their Muslim counterparts have in the Middle East and could reshape the government in any way they could choose... that they wouldn't execute or imprison people they deem "sinners" given the means and opportunity?

And to anyone who can honestly say "Yes" to that question, keep in mind that The Salem Witch Trials were not a Muslim deal. And it's a lot more recent than The Crusades relatively speaking.

The tired old "Christian Fundamentalists don't behead people" canard.

First, the United States is a republic with a long established tradition and history of respecting human rights and rules of law- even if Il Bushe is trying to make it into an Imperial Presidency. Most of the Middle East countries where the Islamic Fundamentalists have a close ear to government if they don't actually run it don't even have the slightest pretense of being a republic that respects human rights and rules of law.

So can you honestly say that if the Christian Taliban had absolute, complete control over the United States that their Muslim counterparts have in the Middle East and could reshape the government in any way they could choose... that they wouldn't execute or imprison people they deem "sinners" given the means and opportunity?

And to anyone who can honestly say "Yes" to that question, keep in mind that The Salem Witch Trials were not a Muslim deal. And it's a lot more recent than The Crusades relatively speaking.

Don't forget the Spanish Inquisition.

Don't forget the Spanish Inquisition.

Nobody expects them.

Don't forget the Spanish Inquisition.

Could go even more recent and bring up the Catholics and Proestants blowing each other up in Northern Ireland.

Could go even more recent and bring up the Catholics and Proestants blowing each other up in Northern Ireland.
nearly forgot about that,loads and loads of them.
Ever ehar about holy cross catholic primary school?In 2001 school children and their parents were threateded and injured going in and out of school by a mob of protestants for weeks....all fundamentalists(christian and muslim) should be sent to a colony on venus!

have you never heard of christian fundamentalists actually blowing up abortion clinices,threatening(sorry about spelling) doctors,protesting at gay mens funerals.
-snip-
Just because christian fundamentalists havent started suicide bombing everything that disagrees with their religion doesnt mean they wont get really mad one day and blow something up.?
A person saying that they are a Christian doesn't make them one. No one knows what is in another person's heart, or if they are saved through grace. Yes, someone claiming to be a Christian will just as likely as another get mad one day and blow something up. Being a Christian is not about hate. It is not about tolerance for the sake of getting along, either. Stating an opinion or presenting Biblical information is part of free speach. I disapprove of abortion, for instance, but you won't see me holding a sign stating 'God hates abortion doctors' or some such nonsense.

A person saying that they are a Christian doesn't make them one. No one knows what is in another person's heart, or if they are saved through grace. Yes, someone claiming to be a Christian will just as likely as another get mad one day and blow something up. Being a Christian is not about hate. It is not about tolerance for the sake of getting along, either. Stating an opinion or presenting Biblical information is part of free speach. I disapprove of abortion, for instance, but you won't see me holding a sign stating 'God hates abortion doctors' or some such nonsense.

And the same applies to Muslims. Some christinas are nuts and some muslims are nuts. Some of both aren't.

A person saying that they are a Christian doesn't make them one. No one knows what is in another person's heart, or if they are saved through grace. Yes, someone claiming to be a Christian will just as likely as another get mad one day and blow something up. Being a Christian is not about hate. It is not about tolerance for the sake of getting along, either. Stating an opinion or presenting Biblical information is part of free speach. I disapprove of abortion, for instance, but you won't see me holding a sign stating 'God hates abortion doctors' or some such nonsense.

I wansnt sugesting in anyway that those who are christian all want to blow things up!
I dont agree with abortion(in most circumstances) either(but I am an athiest!)
Of course everyone should be able to present bible info ect!free speech is really important!

A person saying that they are a Christian doesn't make them one. No one knows what is in another person's heart, or if they are saved through grace. Yes, someone claiming to be a Christian will just as likely as another get mad one day and blow something up. Being a Christian is not about hate. It is not about tolerance for the sake of getting along, either. Stating an opinion or presenting Biblical information is part of free speach. I disapprove of abortion, for instance, but you won't see me holding a sign stating 'God hates abortion doctors' or some such nonsense.

And that brings up a Western double standard. If some lone nutjob blows people up and claims to be a Christian or doing it in the name of God, people generally accept that he's not the spokesman for Christianity.

If on the other hand a lone nut blows people up and claims to be a Muslim or doing it in the name of Allah, everyone accepts that it was the latest plot by the Muslim Jihad Borg Collective and that they all think and act like that. "We are Muslim. Resistance is Futile. You will be Allah-similated" and the usual Islamaphobic canard that goes with it.

And the same applies to Muslims. Some christinas are nuts and some muslims are nuts. Some of both aren't.
exactly, couldnt have put it better.In fact, some people are nuts and dependiong in what part of the worls or what kind of family they were brough up in they will be christian/muslim or scientologist nuts!

I'm still confused on this one. Those Christian fundies who are trying to take control of the U.S. government and turn it into the United Christian States -- how are they any different than the Islamic fundies who are taking control of their own governments and turning them into sharia nations? Isn't this just a big case of the pot calling the kettle black? Seems like the same thing to me.
simple, no matter how bad America gets or how close to bing a UCS, it won't happen because of how the system was made.

now Fundie Christians tend to blow things out of proportion, Fundie Muslims tend to just blow things up.


in other words, both types just blow.

And the same applies to Muslims. Some christinas are nuts and some muslims are nuts. Some of both aren't.
Unfortunately the Koran and subsequent revisions propose violence as a solution much more than the New Testament. So, the not-so-nuts are preached a religion of retaliation and violence in Islam. Nuts are prone to antisocial behavior regardless of the label they choose to wrap themselves in.

Unfortunately the Koran and subsequent revisions propose violence as a solution much more than the New Testament.

Proof, please. Scholarly. With full context, not just one verse pulled out of thin air.

Unfortunately the Koran and subsequent revisions propose violence as a solution much more than the New Testament. So, the not-so-nuts are preached a religion of retaliation and violence in Islam. Nuts are prone to antisocial behavior regardless of the label they choose to wrap themselves in.

So Christian just disregard the Old Testament completely?

-snip- the latest plot by the Muslim Jihad Borg Collective and that they all think and act like that. "We are Muslim. Resistance is Futile. You will be Allah-similated" and the usual Islamaphobic canard that goes with it.
:p That's funny.

So Christian just disregard the Old Testament completely?

Oh yeah ...especially when it comes to the gays.

Oh yeah ...especially when it comes to the gays.

I wa thinking more along the lines of how is an eye for an eye any less violent than the stuff muslim clerics are supposed to teach?

So Christian just disregard the Old Testament completely?
Getting off-topic a bit, but absolutely not. Christians, by definition, believe in Christ and his life is documented in the New Testament. Additionally Christ fulfills the Law of the Old Testament. The OT provides a great deal of insight into God the Father while the NT provides great insight into God the Son and Holy Spirit. Both OT and NT are vital to Christians. I just got through a Bible study on Ecclesiastes - good book.

I wa thinking more along the lines of how is an eye for an eye any less violent than the stuff muslim clerics are supposed to teach?
Fundamental difference is the Bible puts that power with the Government, not the individual.

Fundamental difference is the Bible puts that power with the Government, not the individual.

Any chance you could quote the passage to back up that assertion?

Any chance you could quote the passage to back up that assertion?

Give unto Caesar blah blah blah ...

Takes any culpability away from Christian "reasoning". It's why so many are pro-death penalty, regardless of "Thou Shalt Not Kill", because Caesar demands it.

Give unto Caesar blah blah blah ...

Takes any culpability away from Christian "reasoning".

I'm sorry, my bible studies before confermation consisted of my having to copy out large tracts of the bible while questions were discouraged on the grounds that it showed a lack of faith that may get you kicked from the course and upset your parents :( .

Could you please explain how that reasoning works?

Fundamental difference is the Bible puts that power with the Government, not the individual.
You have your explanations as a peaceful Christian, Muslims will have their explanations as peaceful Muslims. Now can't we all just get along?

Any chance you could quote the passage to back up that assertion?
I had to do some digging... Romans 13 is a reasonable place to start. There is another verse that prescribes that the Government controls the military and justice for the people. My memory for details is not my strong point, I am much better at concepts.

I'm sorry, my bible studies before confermation consisted of my having to copy out large tracts of the bible while questions were discouraged on the grounds that it showed a lack of faith that may get you kicked from the course and upset your parents :( .

Could you please explain how that reasoning works?
I suggest you try a different Church! Questions are good things. It pisses me off when church officials act like they are God and go so far as changing the Bible through interpretation (the Pope and the Episcopal church, for instance). I empathize with your dissapointment.

I'm still confused on this one. Those Christian fundies who are trying to take control of the U.S. government and turn it into the United Christian States -- how are they any different than the Islamic fundies who are taking control of their own governments and turning them into sharia nations? Isn't this just a big case of the pot calling the kettle black? Seems like the same thing to me.
The worst think a Christian fundie can do is ban gay marriage in Idaho. The worst thing a Muslim fundie can do is take out all of New York City, or Los Angeles with a nuke.

Get it?

Could you please explain how that reasoning works?

It doesn't ... that's the point. ;)

Have just started reading Romans, I'm already amused by the fact the the founding fathers of the US must all be in hell right now.

Romans 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

The worst think a Christian fundie can do is ban gay marriage in Idaho. The worst thing a Muslim fundie can do is take out all of New York City, or Los Angeles with a nuke.


You have an example of Muslims taking out all of New York with a Nuke?

I can give you an example of Christians taking out all of America with "Manifest Destiny". Not as quick as a nuke, but just as effective.

The worst think a Christian fundie can do is ban gay marriage in Idaho. The worst thing a Muslim fundie can do is take out all of New York City, or Los Angeles with a nuke.

Get it?

Ummm, you have a fundie in the White House with his finger on the button. He can do alot worse, and is doing.

Romans 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Ewww! What a grotesque ideaology!

Without rebelling against authority, there would be no Constitution of the United States.

So much for the US being a Christian nation....

I suggest you try a different Church! Questions are good things. It pisses me off when church officials act like they are God and go so far as changing the Bible through interpretation (the Pope and the Episcopal church, for instance). I empathize with your dissapointment.

I'm not disappointed, I did it to please my grandmother and she died happy not knowing that I never believed in dog a day in my life.

The worst think a Christian fundie can do is ban gay marriage in Idaho. The worst thing a Muslim fundie can do is take out all of New York City, or Los Angeles with a nuke.

Get it?

So the Murrah Federal Building wasn't so bad?

I'm not disappointed, I did it to please my grandmother and she died happy not knowing that I never believed in dog a day in my life.

Then you're a good grandson. You've risen above morality.

I salute you.

Ewww! What a grotesque ideaology!

Without rebelling against authority, there would be no Constitution of the United States.

So much for the US being a Christian nation....

;) The US is a nation founded on sin according to it's own holy book. LMAO right now.

;) The US is a nation founded on sin according to it's own holy book. LMAO right now.

Hooray! Let the sin begin!

Then you're a good grandson. You've risen above morality.

I salute you.

Lies make people happy. It did cost me alot of Sunday mornings though.

Lies make people happy. It did cost me alot of Sunday mornings though.

Aye ... and that's the point. It's the people who matter. Not the book, not the rules, not the dogma ... it's the people.

You did a good thing with your grandmother.

That's all that matters.

Again, I salute you.

You have an example of Muslims taking out all of New York with a Nuke?

I can give you an example of Christians taking out all of America with "Manifest Destiny". Not as quick as a nuke, but just as effective.
No, but I have hundreds, nay, thousands, of examples of fundie muslims killing women and chidlren in Iraq and elsewhere, and also, there is the small matter of 911..

Manifest Destiny was more of an economic motivation than religious, although religion was certainly part of it. Anyway, the natives were savages, and I'm happy that civilization was expanded in America. I'm not so happy about the fact that so many of them were uprooted and killed, as that goes against my humanitarian principles, but at any rate, I think a fundie Muslim is much more dangerous than a fundie Christian RIGHT NOW, so don't give me a bunch of historical examples of Christian fascism, as they don't pertain to the here and now.

The worst think a Christian fundie can do is ban gay marriage in Idaho. The worst thing a Muslim fundie can do is take out all of New York City, or Los Angeles with a nuke.

Get it?

Idaho hates gays? Shit!

Ummm, you have a fundie in the White House with his finger on the button. He can do alot worse, and is doing.
He's not that much of a fundie. For example, he thinks abortion is ok in some cases. A fundie thinks abortion is bad without exception.

Ewww! What a grotesque ideaology!

Without rebelling against authority, there would be no Constitution of the United States.

So much for the US being a Christian nation....
Another reason why I don't follow Christianity. The Bible is full of contradictions, and it has no real higher moral ground.

Aye ... and that's the point. It's the people who matter. Not the book, not the rules, not the dogma ... it's the people.

You did a good thing with your grandmother.

That's all that matters.

Again, I salute you.

I do remember one Sunday moring going round to my grandparents before church when I was about 5 and I was curious why my grandfather always stayed in bed and didn't come so I went to wake him and asked him why he wasn't coming.

In a totally dead pan voice he told me "Son, church is for sinners" before rolling over and going back to sleep.

It took me a few years to fully grasp how fucking hilarious that was.

So the Murrah Federal Building wasn't so bad?
It was pretty bad, but the World Trade Center was far worse.

Manifest Destiny was more of an economic motivation than religious, although religion was certainly part of it.

Yes ... there's always an excuse when Christians do it ...

He's not that much of a fundie. For example, he thinks abortion is ok in some cases. A fundie thinks abortion is bad without exception.

He says god talks to him when he's making decisions. Thats fundie enough for me.

Yes ... there's always an excuse when Christians do it ...
Hold it right there, I'm not Christian, I have no reason to defend them. I'm also not condoning how they treated the natives, it was shameful, but the bottom line is I"d rather have a built-up developed Western America, than one that is ruled by savages.

He says god talks to him when he's making decisions. Thats fundie enough for me.
Yeah, that's pretty retarded, now that you mention it. But he's not that kind of hard-core fundie, who would want public wippings for gays, and so forth.

The word is fundamentalist. Do they allow you to butcher words in school?
If you are speaking of them both wanting to create theocracies then indeed they are the same.
(1) I'm not in school. Don't assume. (2) "Fundy," I use instead of "fundamentalist" because it shows my bias, not against religion, but against religion-based governments. (3) If they are indeed the same (as you point out), then how come fundies tend to think the American version is better?

If you veiw (sic) it from either of the opposing points of veiw (sic) it is the Dogma of the respective theocracy that is the difference.
Please note that I left your butchered words as you wrote them. And thank you King Obvious.

Of course our two respective radical groups are also no different then those who crawl around this board who would impose Atheism upon a given nation.
Who wants to impose Atheism on the nation? We just want to impose it on the government.

Simply put your question has a bias against religion, which ignores the real problem and that is the position of radical extremism, any religion or socio-political movement can find it may develope a radical extremist fringe.
Of course it ignores radical extremism (which I could argue Christian fundamentalism is) because it's a cross-section of the larger question. Out of curiosity, do you not consider accosting the people who go into abortion clinics or going so far as to blow them up because you think your God wants you to stop abortion, do you not consider THAT extremism? Or even terrorism? Terrorism is defined by the propagandist using the term.

I"d rather have a built-up developed Western America, than one that is ruled by savages.


By savages ... you mean ..... ??

Beheadings. That's one difference. I'm sure there's a few more.
Matthew Sheppard. Next.

By savages ... you mean ..... ??
Oh, silly me, I wasn't being politically correct.

I believe the term is Native Americans, no?

I call them savages and barbarians because that's what they really were.

Hold it right there, I'm not Christian, I have no reason to defend them. I'm also not condoning how they treated the natives, it was shameful, but the bottom line is I"d rather have a built-up developed Western America, than one that is ruled by savages.

Whoa, define savages? I'd say that a people who lived at one with nature and didn't wander around the world imposing their belief system are a lot more civilised than a people who hunt animals to extinction, destroy the environment and kill thousands of people a year in a quest to bring them 'democracy'

NB; don't let Sinhue hear you calling native american savages.

I call them savages and barbarians because that's what they really were.

Ummm ... I happen to be 1/4th Nakohodotsi Caddo ... wanna try that again?

Matthew Sheppard. Next.
Oh, great, quote one example. How many Muslims can you count who have been killed by suicide bombers?

The answer is there's so many who have been killed by terrorists, that you can't quote them all. Face it, muslim fundies kill more than christian fundies.

Ummm ... I happen to be 1/4th Nakohodotsi Caddo ... wanna try that again?

Sssssh, don't tell him that, he'll try to trade your PC for some beads.......or just shoot you and steal your land.

Sssssh, don't tell him that, he'll try to trade your PC for some beads.......or just shoot you and steal your land.

Yah ... never mind that his "people" couldn't even farm before they came here. We had to teach them how to do something as basic as feed themselves.

And they call us "savages" ...

Mmmhmm

Ummm ... I happen to be 1/4th Nakohodotsi Caddo ... wanna try that again?
Ok, congratulations. While your ancestors were collecting skulls, mine were writing books, and building up the country.

Whoa, define savages? I'd say that a people who lived at one with nature and didn't wander around the world imposing their belief system are a lot more civilised than a people who hunt animals to extinction, destroy the environment and kill thousands of people a year in a quest to bring them 'democracy'

NB; don't let Sinhue hear you calling native american savages.
Ah, yes, the old "hippie Indian" propaganda. We all want to think that the Indians lived in harmony with each other and nature because that's what we want to believe. Because it represents a part deep down in each and every on of us that we wish we had.

The truth, my friend, is that most of the time, the various tribes were at war with one another, with the goal being COMPLETE anniliation of the other tribe. That alone makes them savages. Also, life out in the wild was tough, and uncompromising. It wasn't like you see in the movie Pocohontas, where it showed her running around picking flowers. No, life for the average Indian was brutal, short, and hard. When they weren't too cold in the winter, they were too hot in the summer. When they weren't at war with each other, they were having trouble finding food.

That's not a lifestyle to be idolized. Don't believe everything Hollywood tells you.

Yah ... never mind that his "people" couldn't even farm before they came here. We had to teach them how to do something as basic as feed themselves.

And they call us "savages" ...

Mmmhmm
Could your ancestors biuld ships that could cross oceans? Could they use simple tools like the compass? Did they have an understanding of algebra? Did they write poetry?

Didn't think so.

Ok, congratulations. While your ancestors were collecting skulls, mine were writing books, and building up the country.


Ah, yes, the old "hippie Indian" propaganda. We all want to think that the Indians lived in harmony with each other and nature because that's what we want to believe. Because it represents a part deep down in each and every on of us that we wish we had.

The truth, my friend, is that most of the time, the various tribes were at war with one another, with the goal being COMPLETE anniliation of the other tribe. That alone makes them savages. Also, life out in the wild was tough, and uncompromising. It wasn't like you see in the movie Pocohontas, where it showed her running around picking flowers. No, life for the average Indian was brutal, short, and hard. When they weren't too cold in the winter, they were too hot in the summer. When they weren't at war with each other, they were having trouble finding food.

That's not a lifestyle to be idolized. Don't believe everything Hollywood tells you.

You, sir, seem to have very little understanding of this subject and I would suggest you leave it alone before one of the fairly numerous Native Americans on this forum comes along and hands you your arse.

Could your ancestors biuld ships that could cross oceans? Could they use simple tools like the compass? Did they have an understanding of algebra? Did they write poetry?


Newsflash: Those Arabs you hate so much gave you Algebra.

As for poetry, we've known better poetry than you could ever imagine.

I feel sorry for you.

Could your ancestors biuld ships that could cross oceans? Could they use simple tools like the compass? Did they have an understanding of algebra? Did they write poetry?

Didn't think so.

Do you really believe that the ability to use tools or technological advancement is the best measure of civilisation? How old are you?

Ok, congratulations. While your ancestors were collecting skulls, mine were writing books, and building up the country.

Ok you clearly know nothing about the Caddo.

The Spaniards encountered us in the 1530s, long before there was an "America".

Are you a Spaniard? No? Then you have nothing to do with us.

Are you a Texan? A Son of the Republic? No? Then you have NOTHING to do with us.

I'm sorry you equate all Native Americans as being exactly the same tribe. Your ignorance saddens me.

Newsflash: Those Arabs you hate so much gave you Algebra.

As for poetry, we've known better poetry than you could ever imagine.

I feel sorry for you.
Also, the Arabs were the first ones to require doctors to have licenses. I never said I hate them. Once, they were the most advanced civilization, and it's really too bad that they are where they are right now.

Really? Do you have any records of this poetry of yours?

You, sir, seem to have very little understanding of this subject and I would suggest you leave it alone before on of the fairly numerous Native Americans on this forum come along and hand you your arse.
I can't wait. As Shrubby once said, "Bring it on."

heres 10 differences

[QUOTE=Barrygoldwater]1) the USA has always had a pro-Christian government...no more now than ever, as oppsed to what the ayotollah did in Iran
It's not pro-Christian, it's just not anti-Christian. We've had this argument before, and I'm not turning this thread into that.
2) Christians in America do not committ acts of terrorism on a daily basis, only a couple of wackos have and they have been punished by death penalty
Like blowing up abortion clinics or beating up people because "we don't like your kind." As I said, terrorism is in the eye of the propagandist using it.
3) the Christians in America are against gay marriage because the liberals in America stopped them from killing all the gay people off, the Muslims in the middle east kill gays for being gay[B] because no one has stopped them yet.
Corrected in bold.
4) dissenting views in the press are tolerated
Are they? Have you ever listened to Chris Matthews or Bill O'Reilly or Anderson Cooper? Have you ever read the Washington Post? Come on.
5) to get into Jerry falwells schools you dont have to sign a waver to be a stand by suicide bomber
OK, now you're just making stuff up.
6) free elections
What's so free about ours? I have a choice of who I'm voting for, but because of Duverger's Law, it's going to be Red Putz or Blue Putz.
7) Christians in America do not feel that it is ok to blow up a public market to make a point
I'll concede this one, but because no really visible sect of Christianity venerates noble suicide.
8) fundamentalist muslims force women to give up all rights
And what does the bible say about women's lib?
9) the Pope condemns terrorism while radical Muslim leaders encourage it
And the Catholic Church's silence over the destruction of the few aboriginal societies remaining in the world?
10) Lookat our troops behavior and look at theirs...if you can call them troops, its a stretch
Their "troops" act remarkably like the Colonial Army in the late 1770s. I think there was a skirmish or two on the eastern seaboard over conflicting ideologies.

Would you feel safer in an al-queda hangout or the broadcasting soundstage of Trinity TV? Good grief. If this is not staggeringly obvious you really are not very observent of your surroundings.
Honestly, I wouln't feel safe in either one. But that's not equivalent. How about this: the Al Qaeda hangout or a missionary's tent in South America. Again, neither one.

Ok you clearly know nothing about the Caddo.

The Spaniards encountered us in the 1530s, long before there was an "America".

Are you a Spaniard? No? Then you have nothing to do with us.

Are you a Texan? A Son of the Republic? No? Then you have NOTHING to do with us.

I'm sorry you equate all Native Americans as being exactly the same tribe. Your ignorance saddens me.
Were your ancestors conquered by the Spaniards? No? Then you have nothing to do with them.

Of course I have NOTHING to do with you! I didn't kill any Indians, the white settlers did. I wish I could say they were my ancestors, but I don't have that honor, as I'm a first generation immigrant from Europe.

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't patronize me. I know perfectly well that there were hundreds of different tribes, otherwise if they were one and same, they wouldn't be at war with each other almost constantly, would they?

Do you really believe that the ability to use tools or technological advancement is the best measure of civilisation? How old are you?
Old enough to know the difference between Hollywood and realitywood. What about you?

Ok, so what's your definition of civilization? The amount of religiosity people have? How backwards they are, because they're in "harmony" with nature? Go ahead, I'm dying to know what your "measure of civilization" is.

Newsflash: Those Arabs you hate so much gave you Algebra.

As for poetry, we've known better poetry than you could ever imagine.

I feel sorry for you.

And Asia gave them the compass, too.

Were your ancestors conquered by the Spaniards? No? Then you have nothing to do with them.

Actually ... yes they were. They made every effort to make us Catholic and infused their language on us. Most Caddo now speak Spanish. We met the Spaniards at the height of the Inquisition. It makes sense, you know?

as I'm a first generation immigrant from Europe.

Oh yah? Where from? I'm native on my father's side, but 1st generation on my mother's side. Irish. :D

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't patronize me.

But that's the PC Brigade's job, isn't it?

I'm still confused on this one. Those Christian fundies who are trying to take control of the U.S. government and turn it into the United Christian States -- how are they any different than the Islamic fundies who are taking control of their own governments and turning them into sharia nations? Isn't this just a big case of the pot calling the kettle black? Seems like the same thing to me.
Well, most Christian fundamentalists in America think that gays shouldn't be allowed to get married. Most Muslim fundamentalists think that gays shouldn't be allowed to live.

Oh, great, quote one example. How many Muslims can you count who have been killed by suicide bombers?
Why is it that when he gave one example, nothing from you. I give one counterexample and you try to ridicule me for giving only one example. A little bias there?
The answer is there's so many who have been killed by terrorists, that you can't quote them all. Face it, muslim fundies kill more than christian fundies.
And that makes one more right than the other?

Well, most Christian fundamentalists in America think that gays shouldn't be allowed to get married. Most Muslim fundamentalists think that gays shouldn't be allowed to live.
Most Christian Fundamentalists think "them damn queers" don't deserve to live either. But we don't let them exterminate all the gay people, so the government has to find a way to limit them from having a normal life.

I'm still confused on this one. Those Christian fundies who are trying to take control of the U.S. government and turn it into the United Christian States -- how are they any different than the Islamic fundies who are taking control of their own governments and turning them into sharia nations? Isn't this just a big case of the pot calling the kettle black? Seems like the same thing to me.
Well, most Christian fundamentalists in America think that gays shouldn't be allowed to get married. Most Muslim fundamentalists think that gays shouldn't be allowed to live.

heres 10 differences

1) the USA has always had a pro-Christian government...no more now than ever, as oppsed to what the ayotollah did in Iran
2) Christians in America do not committ acts of terrorism on a daily basis, only a couple of wackos have and they have been punished by death penalty
3) the Christians in America are against gay marriage, the Muslims in the middle east kill gays for being gay
4) dissenting views in the press are tolerated
5) to get into Jerry falwells schools you dont have to sign a waver to be a stand by suicide bomber
6) free elections
7) Christians in America do not feel that it is ok to blow up a public market to make a point
8) fundamentalist muslims force women to give up all rights
9) the Pope condemns terrorism while radical Muslim leaders encourage it
10) Lookat our troops behavior and look at theirs...if you can call them troops, its a stretch

Would you feel safer in an al-queda hangout or the broadcasting soundstage of Trinity TV? Good grief. If this is not staggeringly obvious you really are not very observent of your surroundings.
Possibly the first, and only Barrygoldwater post I will ever agree with.

One thing I would like to point out is the difference between Fundementalist Christians and Evangelical Christians. Fundementalist nowadays has come to mean the literalistic/corrupted form of a religion. Fundementalist Christians would be the ones blowing up Abortion Clinics, the Catholics versus Protestants in Ireland and England, The Crusades.

Evangelical Christians, or Christians in their truest and most basic sense (though not everyone claiming to be evangelical is), are people who humble themselves below God and below other people, who love God and other people more than themselves and who repent of their sins, meaning attempting to turn away from sin with God's help, versus the general theory that saying your sorry makes it so type deal alot of go through. Of course non of us are perfect, but that is the essence.

I'm still confused on this one. Those Christian fundies who are trying to take control of the U.S. government and turn it into the United Christian States -- how are they any different than the Islamic fundies who are taking control of their own governments and turning them into sharia nations? Isn't this just a big case of the pot calling the kettle black? Seems like the same thing to me.
Well, most Christian fundamentalists in America think that gays shouldn't be allowed to get married. Most Muslim fundamentalists think that gays shouldn't be allowed to live.

heres 10 differences

1) the USA has always had a pro-Christian government...no more now than ever, as oppsed to what the ayotollah did in Iran
2) Christians in America do not committ acts of terrorism on a daily basis, only a couple of wackos have and they have been punished by death penalty
3) the Christians in America are against gay marriage, the Muslims in the middle east kill gays for being gay
4) dissenting views in the press are tolerated
5) to get into Jerry falwells schools you dont have to sign a waver to be a stand by suicide bomber
6) free elections
7) Christians in America do not feel that it is ok to blow up a public market to make a point
8) fundamentalist muslims force women to give up all rights
9) the Pope condemns terrorism while radical Muslim leaders encourage it
10) Lookat our troops behavior and look at theirs...if you can call them troops, its a stretch

Would you feel safer in an al-queda hangout or the broadcasting soundstage of Trinity TV? Good grief. If this is not staggeringly obvious you really are not very observent of your surroundings.
Possibly the first, and only Barrygoldwater post I will ever agree with.

The tired old "Christian Fundamentalists don't behead people" canard.
They don't. Now you can fantasise all you like about how it would be if the fundamentalist Christians had things like weapons or political power, but the reality is that fundamentalist Muslims are more violent on average.

Reality > fantasy.

Could go even more recent and bring up the Catholics and Proestants blowing each other up in Northern Ireland.
They were being terrorists for political goals, not theocratic goals.

And that brings up a Western double standard. If some lone nutjob blows people up and claims to be a Christian or doing it in the name of God, people generally accept that he's not the spokesman for Christianity.

If on the other hand a lone nut blows people up and claims to be a Muslim or doing it in the name of Allah, everyone accepts that it was the latest plot by the Muslim Jihad Borg Collective and that they all think and act like that. "We are Muslim. Resistance is Futile. You will be Allah-similated" and the usual Islamaphobic canard that goes with it.
Yes it is a stupid double standard. It's because of ignorance. They know Christianity better, so they know that wacko beliefs don't represent the true beliefs. However, they just believe the beliefs of the loudest ravers (or loudest explosions) and jump to a conclusion about a foreign religion.

claims to be a Muslim or doing it in the name of Allah, everyone accepts that it was the latest plot by the Muslim Jihad Borg Collective
What do you mean everyone? There's plenty of disagreement within the west.

Takes any culpability away from Christian "reasoning". It's why so many are pro-death penalty, regardless of "Thou Shalt Not Kill", because Caesar demands it.
Your religion Islam officially endorses the death penalty, unlike Christianity. I don't think that most Christians in the world (America isn't the world) oppose the death penalty.

anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people." (5:32)
There's no "but" or exception clause in "Thou shalt not kill".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Muslim_understanding

The essential difference between the two is that people have generally stopped fundie Christians from commiting acts of terror. Just give them a chance, and...

One thing I would like to point out is the difference between Fundementalist Christians and Evangelical Christians. Fundementalist nowadays has come to mean the literalistic/corrupted form of a religion. Fundementalist Christians would be the ones blowing up Abortion Clinics, the Catholics versus Protestants in Ireland and England, The Crusades.
I'd love it if self-proclaimed fundamentalist Christians actually stuck to fundamental Christian beliefs. Blowing things up and killing people flies in the face of everything Christianity is about.

I'd love it if self-proclaimed fundamentalist Christians actually stuck to fundamental Christian beliefs. Blowing things up and killing people flies in the face of everything Christianity is about.
And the same is true of Islam.

I'm still confused on this one. Those Christian fundies who are trying to take control of the U.S. government and turn it into the United Christian States -- how are they any different than the Islamic fundies who are taking control of their own governments and turning them into sharia nations? Isn't this just a big case of the pot calling the kettle black? Seems like the same thing to me.
Uh ... they don't blow shit up? Ya think??

And the same is true of Islam.
You suffer from a lack of information.

And the same is true of Islam.

And it seems not very many people get that, sadly.

You suffer from a lack of information.

You suffer from a lack of 7th grade history.

I'd love it if self-proclaimed fundamentalist Christians actually stuck to fundamental Christian beliefs. Blowing things up and killing people flies in the face of everything Christianity is about.


Thats the thing though. People are evil. At their very core is evil. No matter how you look at it, whether born with desires to do things that aren't right. But what you say reminds me of what Buddha once said, which was roughly, "I'd be a Christian if it werent for all the Christians out there" forgive me if I am off.

Christianity at it's root, which are the actual teachings of Christ, is a belief of loving God and loving others.

Galations 5: 22-26 explains a good deal

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

That is Christianity, not the political, economical TV Preacher, Spanish Inquisition, Crusader, Vouchers to Heaven, Opression of the Poor system it's been corrupted to in the past and present

The essential difference between the two is that people have generally stopped fundie Christians from commiting acts of terror. Just give them a chance, and...

... and not only would Matthew Sheppard have plenty of company on the fenceposts, The Salem Witch Trials would become a new Fox Reality Show.

Fundies are fundies are fundies are fundies. :)

Fundies are fundies are fundies are fundies. :)

Except in the United States where Brown-Skinned Fundies are accepted to be Ultimate Evil that's missing a laser beam on the moon.

Except in the United States where Brown-Skinned Fundies are accepted to be Ultimate Evil that's missing a laser beam on the moon.

It's just that it's not fully operational yet. We need to bomb the towelheads before the battle station gets in range of the rebel base!

Except in the United States where Brown-Skinned Fundies are accepted to be Ultimate Evil that's missing a laser beam on the moon.


In that case... evil is evil is evil! ;)

It's just that it's not fully operational yet. We need to bomb the towelheads before the battle station gets in range of the rebel base!

Use the force, Bush! :p

And the same is true of Islam.
Yes, needless to say.

You suffer from a lack of information.
No. Islam may be marginally more violent than Christianity, but generally it is a religion of peace and charity, just like mine. It's not about "genocide all the infidels".

The use of the word "Fundamentalist" has been brought up already and I am happy about that.

I am a Fundamentalist Christian(by my definition and by the definition of the root word Fundamental, Fundamentalist.)

Christianity is fundamentally based on the teachings of the action of Jesus Christ.

Those people who have highjacked the word 'Fundamentalist' to mean 'radical extremist' have done people who follow the fundamentals of a given thing a great disservice.

The same with Islam, the Prophet Mohammed and several of the Caliphate teachings are completely oppossed to the actions of suppossed "Fundamentalist Muslims".
Because in reality they do not follow the fundamental teachings of Islam.

For instance, not mutilating the dead--this is discussed Bakr's rules of WAR--

For instance treating prisoners witht he same care you give your own troops--the same quality of clothing, shelter, and food. I real honest to goodness Fundamental Jihadist would NEVER harm a compliant prisoner.

Do not harm religious pilgrims---of ANY religion(this is a fundamental Islamic teaching).


DO not harm children, women, or the elderly.

DO no harm to any religious site---any religious site at all, not just Islamic religious sites.

So we see immediately that by just these few rules the men in the mideast are by no means Fundamentalists--because they do not follow fundamentals.

I hope that more realize the word has been hijacked.
Because what it serves to do is give the verbal impression that the radical actions taken are indeed the actions sanctioned by any given organization plagued by the radical extremist fringe that has been dubiously named "Fundamentalist", there is nothing Fundamentalist about these feckers.

Your religion Islam officially endorses the death penalty, unlike Christianity.

Umm ... I'm a Buddhist.

Umm ... I'm a Buddhist.


Stop eating that meat!

Stop eating that meat!

If the Dalai Lama can eat meat, so can I. In his words, "it's the butcher's karma". :p

Umm ... I'm a Buddhist.

Seriously? Last time I checked (which was well over a year ago... I know I was away for long, long time), you were a Muslim. What happened?

Seriously? Last time I checked (which was well over a year ago... I know I was away for long, long time), you were a Muslim. What happened?

Apostacy, baby. All the cool kids are doing it.

I checked it out for a while, then returned to Buddhism. Been a Buddhist since I was 15, tried some other paths here and there.

If the Dalai Lama can eat meat, so can I. In his words, "it's the butcher's karma". :p


*puts on a Yellow Hat*

Lamas are heretics and all that.

*sticks tongue out, and marches away to the strain of 'The East Is Red'*

*puts on a Yellow Hat*

Lamas are heretics and all that.

*sticks tongue out, and marches away to the strain of 'The East Is Red'*

Hehe ... my first laugh out loud moment of the day. Thanks. :D

Apostacy, baby. All the cool kids are doing it.

I checked it out for a while, then returned to Buddhism. Been a Buddhist since I was 15, tried some other paths here and there.

Ah yes, I see. (And I was evidently knocked out for quite a while, it seems...)

Ah yes, I see. (And I was evidently knocked out for quite a while, it seems...)

Life is a journey. :)

I did a thread on becoming apostate at some point a while back. You may have been sleepin'.

Life is a journey. :)

I totally second that statement.

I did a thread on becoming apostate at some point a while back. You may have been sleepin'.

Well, I didn't visit this forum in many, many months, that is why I didn't see that thread. (I was whisked away from the face of the web, in a way - I do not wish to talk about the details in public though).

Hehe ... my first laugh out loud moment of the day. Thanks. :D

:) Have a sushi.

One thing I would like to point out is the difference between Fundementalist Christians and Evangelical Christians. Fundementalist nowadays has come to mean the literalistic/corrupted form of a religion. Fundementalist Christians would be the ones blowing up Abortion Clinics, the Catholics versus Protestants in Ireland and England, The Crusades.

Evangelical Christians, or Christians in their truest and most basic sense (though not everyone claiming to be evangelical is), are people who humble themselves below God and below other people, who love God and other people more than themselves and who repent of their sins, meaning attempting to turn away from sin with God's help, versus the general theory that saying your sorry makes it so type deal alot of go through. Of course non of us are perfect, but that is the essence.
Well said, and I am sure you will take flack for your post. To expand a bit, Christians believe that they are saved through grace. They do not feel 'better' than someone else because it is nothing that they did to get salvation, but rather what Christ did. I differ with you, I think, in that literalistic does not mean corrupt. Anyhow, now we can both take some flack - so be it.

Umm ... I'm a Buddhist.
This does confuse me. You seem to have much more respect for Islam than Christianity, which is unfair.

Apostacy, baby. All the cool kids are doing it.

I checked it out for a while, then returned to Buddhism. Been a Buddhist since I was 15, tried some other paths here and there.
I thought you converted from Judaism to Islam in 2004. What's the real story? Was that before or after you served in the military? ;)

Why is it that when he gave one example, nothing from you. I give one counterexample and you try to ridicule me for giving only one example. A little bias there?

And that makes one more right than the other?
You want an example? I'll give you one of the more famous ones-Daniel Pearl (decapitated), Nick Berg (also decapitated), Menchaca and Tucker (two American soldiers who were captured and then brutally tortured, oh, wait, American soldeirs don't matter right?) and the hundreds of people who die in Iraq every day simply because they don't belong to the "right" sect.

No, I don't condone terrorism in any of its forms, but any sane, rational observer would say that muslim fundies are more dangerous than christian fundies.

No, I don't condone terrorism in any of its forms, but any sane, rational observer would say that muslim fundies are more dangerous than christian fundies.
Of course, why didn't I see it before? :rolleyes: Any "rational" person would see it because you can come up with more examples from present day than I can.

Sure, I can come up with historical examples, then make an argument of how fundamentalist Christians *seem* less dangerous because we've placed a tighter leash on them (like a rabid pit-bull). But I don't think you're worth the trouble.