NationStates Jolt Archive

I've held off the truth as long as I could, but it's finally happened, I crossed the last bridge and found myself sitting on the right hand side of political insanity. It began with my gradual disillusionment with socialism, followed by my absolute disdain for the trade unions stranglehold on the Australian left, my desire for fiscal responsibility, that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane, my moderate social views and the fact it seems it's only the conservative parties whoa re seeking actual reform these days.

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.

Nostradamus say: You will die a terrible, terrible death. :)

Conservatives seem to be reforming their economics and keeping their social from what I've seen.

I've held off the truth as long as I could, but it's finally happened, I crossed the last bridge and found myself sitting on the right hand side of political insanity. It began with my gradual disillusionment with socialism, followed by my absolute disdain for the trade unions stranglehold on the Australian left, my desire for fiscal responsibility, that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane, my moderate social views and the fact it seems it's only the conservative parties whoa re seeking actual reform these days.

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.


You do realize, now, that we'll never ever be on the same side of the Woolsack?

You do realize, now, that we'll never ever be on the same side of the Woolsack?

Who cares, we'll just blow our potsmoke over to the other side and make obscene gestures from a distance. :p

Only "now?" You've always been a conservative shill by my standards.

Who cares, we'll just blow our potsmoke over to the other side and make obscene gestures from a distance. :p


*coughs* blharg blargh blargh... as my fellow backbencher Duke Kanabia of Easter Isle is wont to say: ' we need more pot before this nation goes to pot!'

Only "now?" You've always been a conservative shill by my standards.


That is because you define conservative as anyone to the right of Lenin.

YOU WHAT?

Joined Johnny Coward and his band of thugs! :eek:

Conservatives seem to be reforming their economics and keeping their social from what I've seen.
read: losing integrity and pandering to the whims of the tabloids and whatever the voters whinge about this week.


but w/r/t the OP: 248,000 a year in taxes? sounds like she's paying a lot because she's earning a lot...

That is because you define conservative as anyone to the right of Lenin.
Lenin was a fascist.

Do I win lefty points?

Lenin was a fascist.

Do I win lefty points?


One moment.

*raids lefty-piggy-bank*

How many do you want, dear fellow?

w/s Lord Brogue of Lesser Ormesby.

That is because you define conservative as anyone to the right of Lenin.

Actually, that would make them liberal as liberalism is right-wing. I use "conservative" about social issues, and those transcend the right-left spectrum.

By the by, I am myself moderately liberal and have very little regard for communism.

Actually, that would make them liberal as liberalism is right-wing. I use "conservative" about social issues, and those transcend the right-left spectrum.

By the by, I am myself moderately liberal and have very little regard for communism.

Well, in that case I'm afraid that your personal standards have no relevance, other than as expressions of your own convictions.

*lights a cuban cigar with added afghan leaves*

Well, in that case I'm afraid that your personal standards have no relevance, other than as expressions of your own convictions.

No shit, Sherlock.

No shit, Sherlock.


You might make a good housemate for Richard.

I can't stand that Pete-fellow.

One moment.

*raids lefty-piggy-bank*

How many do you want, dear fellow?

w/s Lord Brogue of Lesser Ormesby.

Well, whatever you deem an appropriate amount. I wouldn't want to deprive others of lefty points. *nods*

Well, whatever you deem an appropriate amount. I wouldn't want to deprive others of lefty points. *nods*


5000.

Anyway, I wish to make it clear that I did not have to donate a lot of dosh in order to become a Peer.
Sharing reefers with Kanabia was quite enough to do that.

w/s Brogue, 1st Earl of Catterick.

5000.

Anyway, I wish to make it clear that I did not have to donate a lot of dosh in order to become a Peer.
Sharing reefers with Kanabia was quite enough to do that.

w/s Brogue, 1st Earl of Catterick.

Indeed. Anyone who wishes to join the Kommie Konspiracy need only bring weed and/or booze. *nods*

I'm a Liberal!
Whats his said so!:)

I've held off the truth as long as I could, but it's finally happened, I crossed the last bridge and found myself sitting on the right hand side of political insanity. It began with my gradual disillusionment with socialism, followed by my absolute disdain for the trade unions stranglehold on the Australian left, my desire for fiscal responsibility, that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane, my moderate social views and the fact it seems it's only the conservative parties whoa re seeking actual reform these days.

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.
glossing over youre temporary foray into insanity...


how the fuck much money does a person have to make in australia to have that big a tax burden? is that just "income tax" or did you think about it and add in all the other taxes and fees that exist in australia?

That is because you define conservative as anyone to the right of Lenin.
lenin, left wing?
not left wing enough I say!!
(btw this was sarcasm, just in case you have no sense of humour)

... that fact that my mother paying $248,000...
holy shit.

Not like trade union control, high taxes and socialism makes you conservative?

Shit

I've held off the truth as long as I could, but it's finally happened, I crossed the last bridge and found myself sitting on the right hand side of political insanity. It began with my gradual disillusionment with socialism, followed by my absolute disdain for the trade unions stranglehold on the Australian left, my desire for fiscal responsibility, that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane, my moderate social views and the fact it seems it's only the conservative parties whoa re seeking actual reform these days.

*Emperor Palpatine voice*

"Henceworth, you shall be known as Darth Rotovia. Together we will discover the true power of the dark side!Muhahahaha."


So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.

For outsiders, that probably didn't make much sense.

Only "now?" You've always been a conservative shill by my standards.
My life is about meeting your standards, Fassy-boy

YOU WHAT?

Joined Johnny Coward and his band of thugs! :eek:
I'm sorry, I drive a Mercedes Benz c180, I have a trust fund, I just can't be bothered pretending to give a rats

glossing over youre temporary foray into insanity...


how the fuck much money does a person have to make in australia to have that big a tax burden? is that just "income tax" or did you think about it and add in all the other taxes and fees that exist in australia?
My mother is in the 48% tax bracket (though I think it has just been lowered 2% under the new budget), I'll leave the maths to you. We're just counting income tax here

My mother is in the 48% tax bracket (though I think it has just been lowered 2% under the new budget), I'll leave the maths to you. We're just counting income tax here

you know, i feel so bad for those poor poor people, stuck making $500,000+. the trials and hardships, the constant fear of ruin and starvation, the torment brought on by the question of whether to buy the third house in the mountains or on the ocean

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.

You packed up your bong. YOU BASTARD!

you know, i feel so bad for those poor poor people, stuck making $500,000+. the trials and hardships, the constant fear of ruin and starvation, the torment brought on by the question of whether to buy the third house in the mountains or on the ocean
Oh please, my mother worked hard her entire life for every cent she has, why should be asked to give nearly 50 cents from every dollar she makes to income tax alone?

Another thing the working classes love to forget, is that it costs a lot of money to be middle class. With economic roller-coastering and a massive drop in consumer confidence, damn straight we face financial ruin! It costs a lot of money to run a business, provide decent education and a standard of living.

What kind of society do we live in, where a person is punished for succeeding in life?

that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane
Why is that insane?

Welcome to the dark side :)
Now if only you'd just come a little further "south" on the political compass (entering libertarian territory) :p

What kind of society do we live in, where a person is punished for succeeding in life?
What kind of society do we live in, where a person is punished for not being rich?

Well, in that case I'm afraid that your personal standards have no relevance, other than as expressions of your own convictions.

*lights a cuban cigar with added afghan leaves*
Are you not already far too high to partake in any sort of reasoned debate?

Oh please, my mother worked hard her entire life for every cent she has, why should be asked to give nearly 50 cents from every dollar she makes to income tax alone?

cause she has benefitted far more than the vast majority of her fellow people from the system in place?

and it isn't 50 cents from every dollar. just every dollar over dollar number 95 thousand, with the ones before taxed at various lesser rates.

Another thing the working classes love to forget, is that it costs a lot of money to be middle class.

hahahaha

"it's hard work being rich - do you have any idea how much a butler costs these days?"

btw, middle class?! what sort of crazy inflation are you guys dealing with over there that puts the 'middle class' so far into the highest tax bracket that their income outside of that tax bracket is essentially negligible?

What kind of society do we live in, where a person is punished for succeeding in life?

it's a punishment to be left with more than twelve times the median income after taxes? fuck son, sign me up for all the torture you've got.

it's a punishment to be left with more than twelve times the median income after taxes? fuck son, sign me up for all the torture you've got.
Lol, well said boy.

My mother is in the 48% tax bracket (though I think it has just been lowered 2% under the new budget), I'll leave the maths to you. We're just counting income tax here

Is the Ol' Battleaxe single ?

What kind of society do we live in, where a person is punished for not being rich?

A sensible one.

Glad to see the creator of this thread has came over to the right side.

It is often said that a young conservative has no heart and an adult liberal has no brain.

That is because you define conservative as anyone to the right of Lenin.

Ain't it the truth.

Welcome to the club, my new conservative friend. Send me your address and I'l ship you all the materials necessary to become part of the VRWC, or Vast right wing conspiracy.

:fluffle:

Glad to see the creator of this thread has came over to the right side.

It is often said that a young conservative has no heart and an adult liberal has no brain.

Oh so true.

Young, conservative, and um....a minority. YARR!

I've held off the truth as long as I could, but it's finally happened, I crossed the last bridge and found myself sitting on the right hand side of political insanity. It began with my gradual disillusionment with socialism, followed by my absolute disdain for the trade unions stranglehold on the Australian left, my desire for fiscal responsibility, that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane, my moderate social views and the fact it seems it's only the conservative parties whoa re seeking actual reform these days.

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRNNNN!!!!!!

I didn't know the Australian Liberal Party was conservative... maybe I'm misreading it, or maybe Aussies just have everything upside down:)

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRNNNN!!!!!!

I didn't know the Australian Liberal Party was conservative... maybe I'm misreading it, or maybe Aussies just have everything upside down:)

Upside down. Which is to be expected, being on the bottom side of the planet and all.

Sad to hear how much that lady is paying in taxes. 50% oofff...

I can sympathize....in New York you have a maximum 35% national income tax, 6% state income tax, and 6% social security tax. That is getting mightly close to 50%. School taxes should finish it off. I cannot abide by a society that believes in punishing success by taking half of your money away to spend in a sloppy manner. The federal government in the U.S. is the largest organization in the history of the World...spending $2.7 trillion per year and taking 18% of the nation's income in taxes...while overspending by $1 Billion per day. It is disgusting.

What kind of society do we live in, where a person is punished for not being rich?

which society is that?

50% income tax on success. what a way to encourage risk taking and investment.....:(

My only gripe with the left (actually many gripes, but I probably have more in common with liberals than some conservatives) is that they stereotype (quite seriously, not in a joking manner) all "wealthier" people as being lazy and not earning their money, while criticizing other people for stereotyping the poor for being lazy and never doing any work. Utter bullshit on both sides.

My only gripe with the left (actually many gripes, but I probably have more in common with liberals than some conservatives) is that they stereotype (quite seriously, not in a joking manner) all "wealthier" people as being lazy and not earning their money, while criticizing other people for stereotyping the poor for being lazy and never doing any work. Utter bullshit on both sides.

Exactly! I am very conservative and I would never call a working poor person lazy. I will not call sombody who pays a 50% INCOME tax lazy either.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRNNNN!!!!!!

I didn't know the Australian Liberal Party was conservative... maybe I'm misreading it, or maybe Aussies just have everything upside down:)

Actually, you guys have things upside down. Liberals everywhere else represent the economic right wing.

Actually, you guys have things upside down. Liberals everywhere else represent the economic right wing.

50% income tax is the economic right wing? we are really in trouble now.

Actually, you guys have things upside down. Liberals everywhere else represent the economic right wing.
Well, sorta. But the Howard Party isn't liberal either, because they're conservative on social issues. Real liberals are libertarians, they are against government involvement both in economics and in social lives.

Which brings me to my point regarding the OP: Are you stupid? Go libertarian!

50% income tax is the economic right wing? we are really in trouble now.
Well, they've been cutting them (it's 45% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_Australia)). But their right-wing-ness has so far been mainly about fighting unions (I don't consider fiscal responsibility to have anything to do with either side of the spectrum, lefties can be fiscally responsible as well).

Well, they've been cutting them (it's 45% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_Australia)). But their right-wing-ness has so far been mainly about fighting unions (I don't consider fiscal responsibility to have anything to do with either side of the spectrum, lefties can be fiscally responsible as well).

Cutting taxes and fighting unions sounds like a Conservative to me. I find this interesting. In America, where I am from, that would fit in with a conservative Republican ideal....although 45% is pretty high.

Cutting taxes and fighting unions sounds like a Conservative to me. I find this interesting. In America, where I am from, that would fit in with a conservative Republican ideal....although 45% is pretty high.
You're getting me started...

Let's just say that you are making a mistake if you think the Republicans have anything to do with the free market. They share some policies with what a real free market party would do, but they only do it because of tradition and "that's just the way things are" - I can guarantee you that virtually no one in the GOP has gone through the intense soul-searching that is needed to make a person accept the underlying philosophy. Those that do leave the Republicans in no time flat.

So you end up with a party that will happily talk about cutting taxes, and at the same time spend billions on handouts to big business, put up or retain tariff barriers, regulate who people can and can't marry and throw people in jail (or worse) for "terrorism" charges, in the name of protecting "the nation".

You're getting me started...

Let's just say that you are making a mistake if you think the Republicans have anything to do with the free market. They share some policies with what a real free market party would do, but they only do it because of tradition and "that's just the way things are" - I can guarantee you that virtually no one in the GOP has gone through the intense soul-searching that is needed to make a person accept the underlying philosophy. Those that do leave the Republicans in no time flat.

So you end up with a party that will happily talk about cutting taxes, and at the same time spend billions on handouts to big business, put up or retain tariff barriers, regulate who people can and can't marry and throw people in jail (or worse) for "terrorism" charges, in the name of protecting "the nation".

You have no idea what you are talking about. I am a member of many GOP organizations and I am a registered Republican. Your assertions about "soul searching" are false. I do not support free market economics and other Conservative principals because they are the "way things are". I support them because I believe they are the system that works the best. Others do not come close. I am for cutting taxes, and am for necessary use of corperations to supply our military and infrastructure. Who else would supply the material? I did not decide who can and can not marry, the definition of marriage did. The neo-left is destroying the one constant principal of marriage over the course of history. I like to see terrorists shot on the battlefield, but if we catch them unarmed I say detain them, give them a quick trial, and then execute them. Why did you put terrorism and 'the nation' in quotes? They are terms you would not use your self?

You have no idea what you are talking about.
Ugh.

If you did not do the soul searching, then your convictions cannot be all that deep. In other words, you just end up believing what some person told you at some point.

I do not support free market economics and other Conservative principals because they are the "way things are". I support them because I believe they are the system that works the best.
a) Free Market economics is not a conservative principle. Indeed, conservatism doesn't have principles - in Sweden conservatives may well be supporting the welfare state, and right-wingers could be the radical reformers.
b) So in other words, you could be a fascist. Fascism is pragmatism at its finest - no principles other than a fanatic adherance to the nation as the representative of the wishes of society.

I did not decide who can and can not marry, the definition of marriage did.
You really are a conservative, like out of a book. :rolleyes:

"The definition of marriage" cannot decide anything. Only people can.

The neo-left is destroying the one constant principal of marriage over the course of history.
No, the "neo-left" isn't doing anything. People wish to get married to the people they love. You want to stop them from doing that, and when people ask you why you start rants about various forms of "neo-left".

I like to see terrorists shot on the battlefield, but if we catch them unarmed I say detain them, give them a quick trial, and then execute them.
More fascism.
Self-defence? Yes, but only in so far as it is worth it, and with individual freedom coming above security.
Attack? No. Life is not an eternal struggle between opposing interests in which societies have to prove themselves worthy by defeating their enemies.

Oh, and terrorists aren't on a battlefield, pretty much by definition. ;)

Why did you put terrorism and 'the nation' in quotes? They are terms you would not use your self?
I would use the term terrorist, but narrowly. Terrorism is an action, not an ideology.
As for the nation - no, I don't consider that a valid concept in the sense you use it in. The individual comes first, but if you look at your post, how often have you referred to it? Not once.
But you referred to a greater society, a nation (that is implied to stand against all others) twice.

Let's face it, you value a flag and other irrational symbolism above the individual.

Ugh.

If you did not do the soul searching, then your convictions cannot be all that deep. In other words, you just end up believing what some person told you at some point.
well how fascinating that you know me so well yet are so ignorant of my beliefs


a) Free Market economics is not a conservative principle. Indeed, conservatism doesn't have principles - in Sweden conservatives may well be supporting the welfare state, and right-wingers could be the radical reformers.
you obviously do not know the nature of conservatism
b) So in other words, you could be a fascist. Fascism is pragmatism at its finest - no principles other than a fanatic adherance to the nation as the representative of the wishes of society.
ah but I am a Christian, an American, a conservative, and a Republican in that order. Hardly fascist.



"The definition of marriage" cannot decide anything. Only people can.
People have kept one thing common in marriage since the age of the caveman. Guess what it was? It was between people of two different genders. Now a minority wants to use activist judges to destroy that most basic unit of the family even more than it already has been

No, the "neo-left" isn't doing anything. People wish to get married to the people they love. You want to stop them from doing that, and when people ask you why you start rants about various forms of "neo-left".
like polygamists.

Self-defence? Yes, but only in so far as it is worth it, and with individual freedom coming above security. since when?
Attack? No. Life is not an eternal struggle between opposing interests in which societies have to prove themselves worthy by defeating their enemies.
getting all philosophical hmmm? windbagish even
Oh, and terrorists aren't on a battlefield, pretty much by definition. ;)
tell that to the Iraq vets

I would use the term terrorist, but narrowly. Terrorism is an action, not an ideology. correct. we are at war with fundamentalist Islam. Not terrorism
As for the nation - no, I don't consider that a valid concept in the sense you use it in. The individual comes first, but if you look at your post, how often have you referred to it? Not once. the individual has freedom to live within the confines of the nation's laws....I thought that was basic
But you referred to a greater society, a nation (that is implied to stand against all others) twice.

Let's face it, you value a flag and other irrational symbolism above the individual.

I am perplexed as to how you both claim to know me so well and are ignorant of my most basic views at the same time! I but symbolism and a flag above human life? Hardly. I put the security of the American people above the lives of those who wish to destroy America.

Glad to see the creator of this thread has came over to the right side.

It is often said that a young conservative has no heart and an adult liberal has no brain.

However, it was said regarding old time free-market, liberals (libertarians in Yank-talk) and pro-Empire, hyper-nationalist, go die for the king type conservatives. ;)

However, it was said regarding old time free-market, liberals (libertarians in Yank-talk) and pro-Empire, hyper-nationalist, go die for the king type conservatives. ;)

Times have changed. Conservatives are more moderate today and liberals have turned on the free market and introduced as to a new culture in which we are the baby pigs and the government is a fat suckle hog. It is a disturbing trend to say the least.

liberals have turned on the free market and introduced as to a new culture in which we are the baby pigs and the government is a fat suckle hog..

Where do you get this stuff?

Times have changed. Conservatives are more moderate today and liberals have turned on the free market and introduced as to a new culture in which we are the baby pigs and the government is a fat suckle hog. It is a disturbing trend to say the least.

You utterly missed the point. :(

Neo-cons are the old timey liberals, but with all sorts of authoritarian social policies added on.

So, if you're an adult and a neo-con, I suppose you haven't a heart, or a brain. ;)

Not that that was my point either...

I've held off the truth as long as I could, but it's finally happened, I crossed the last bridge and found myself sitting on the right hand side of political insanity. It began with my gradual disillusionment with socialism, followed by my absolute disdain for the trade unions stranglehold on the Australian left, my desire for fiscal responsibility, that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane, my moderate social views and the fact it seems it's only the conservative parties whoa re seeking actual reform these days.

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.

welcome to our side (http://home.att.net/~sl.schofield/star_wars/emperor_palpatine.jpg)

I've held off the truth as long as I could, but it's finally happened, I crossed the last bridge and found myself sitting on the right hand side of political insanity. It began with my gradual disillusionment with socialism, followed by my absolute disdain for the trade unions stranglehold on the Australian left, my desire for fiscal responsibility, that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane, my moderate social views and the fact it seems it's only the conservative parties whoa re seeking actual reform these days.

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.

Good to know that you have seen the light. Hurray for the Liberal Party! :D

Sad to hear how much that lady is paying in taxes. 50% oofff...
Oh so true.

Young, conservative, and um....a minority. YARR!
What the hell kind of Christians are you people? You're sympathising with a woman who after taxes, is still left with twelve times the median income.

Don't you give a shit about the poor at all? I think they need money more than her.

I'm sorry to have to do this, but


7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.

1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.


42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

finally...

4 However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5 if only you fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.

As you can clearly see, it is wrong that some people have so much money while others in the same society have so little.

Even some on the atheist left are acting more Christian, in my opinion, than you people. That is a depressing thought.

Lenin was a fascist.

Do I win lefty points?

*slap*

You're getting me started...

Let's just say that you are making a mistake if you think the Republicans have anything to do with the free market. They share some policies with what a real free market party would do, but they only do it because of tradition and "that's just the way things are"
No, they enact these policies because they are beneficial to their rich friends. They don't care about the public good. Rather, they use terrorism to scare people into voting for them.

I am a Christian, an American, a conservative, and a Republican in that order.
Then why do you put the priorities of the last three above the priorities of the first? Constantly.

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.
For outsiders, that probably didn't make much sense.
Because OZ is dumb enough to name their Conservative party after Liberals.;)

Because OZ is dumb enough to name their Conservative party after Liberals.;)

Thakyou for the clarification it seems to be grewing trend with political parties that the don't reflect their names.

Christian, in my opinion, than you people. That is a depressing thought.

Um. Christians (like me) not only contribute to charity, but I take people in to my house and I help work at a food kitchen run by our church.

The difference is that I don't believe that the government is very good at delivering help to the poor. In fact, past experience in the US has shown that they suck at it - for every dollar allocated to "help the poor" by the government, most of it is wasted on bureaucracy. In the US, the Federal dollar is reduced to about 10 percent of its value by the bureaucracy.

Is that "helping the poor"? Or would it be better to do as I (and those in my congregation) do, and act directly with money and food and shelter and clothing?

My mother is in the 48% tax bracket (though I think it has just been lowered 2% under the new budget), I'll leave the maths to you. We're just counting income tax here
so its well more than that when you consider all taxes...

good for her!

one word of caution...

that money is HER money, not yours. at your age and with your potential, you might well meet or exceed her income level but there is no guarantee of that. you might well find yourself at an average income and in great need of liberal programs. don't fully invest yourself in the party of "rich" people before you ARE rich or you might end up working against your own self interest in the future.

Originally Posted by Rotovia-
Oh please, my mother worked hard her entire life for every cent she has, why should be asked to give nearly 50 cents from every dollar she makes to income tax alone?

errr, she's not?

She's paying 45% tax, on everything she earns above $150,000. People always seem to forget how the progressive tax rate works. If you're in a certain tax bracket not all of your money is taxed at that level, only every dollar you make beyond that level. That is assuming that this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_Australia) is true.

don't fully invest yourself in the party of "rich" people before you ARE rich or you might end up working against your own self interest in the future.

Not every conservative or neo liberal is rich....

Not every conservative or neo liberal is rich....
Hear hear!

I've held off the truth as long as I could, but it's finally happened, I crossed the last bridge and found myself sitting on the right hand side of political insanity. It began with my gradual disillusionment with socialism, followed by my absolute disdain for the trade unions stranglehold on the Australian left, my desire for fiscal responsibility, that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane, my moderate social views and the fact it seems it's only the conservative parties whoa re seeking actual reform these days.

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.

Welcome to the darkside... *heavy masked breathing*

I've held off the truth as long as I could, but it's finally happened, I crossed the last bridge and found myself sitting on the right hand side of political insanity. It began with my gradual disillusionment with socialism, followed by my absolute disdain for the trade unions stranglehold on the Australian left, my desire for fiscal responsibility, that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane, my moderate social views and the fact it seems it's only the conservative parties whoa re seeking actual reform these days.

So I've packed up my bong, and signed up for the Australian Liberal Party.
Welcome to the Dark Side, my friend. Shall we get you started on laissez-faire capitalism, or banning gay marriage?

;)

Or would it be better to do as I (and those in my congregation) do, and act directly with money and food and shelter and clothing?It would be better to do it the way you do it, if the way you did it would actually be sufficient. Since the government is the only body with the possibility of doing it to the point of sufficiency, the government should do it. Of course, the government won't necessarily do it correctly.

Not every conservative or neo liberal is rich....True, most of them are simply willing to act against their own interests in the belief that they will be rich at some point in the future.

Not every conservative or neo liberal is rich....
i didnt say they were. i said he should watch out for the possibility of voting against his own best interest

well how fascinating that you know me so well yet are so ignorant of my beliefs
Do you really think I haven't met dozens and dozens of people who are exactly like you? When people don't find their views through this long, personal process, they end up copying someone else's.

you obviously do not know the nature of conservatism
con·ser·va·tism
1. The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order.
2. A political philosophy or attitude emphasizing respect for traditional institutions, distrust of government activism, and opposition to sudden change in the established order.
Come again?
There is absolutely nothing in the conservative thought process that requires any respect for the individual. There is no economic direction implied, there is no moral value system implied. There can be conservative hippies, if they don't want their commune to adopt some sort of new rule. Osama Bin Laden - isn't he conservative? Reactionary, even?

In practice, I see conservatives fighting against individual choice and for collectivisation, for rallying against some sort of "common enemy", which changes every few decades.

ah but I am a Christian, an American, a conservative, and a Republican in that order. Hardly fascist.
I hope you'll take the time and honesty to read this definition of fascism (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html), written by Mussolini himself. I find that if you don't tell people who wrote it, most conservatives find a lot of common ground, especially if they're the militant US type like yourself.

People have kept one thing common in marriage since the age of the caveman. Guess what it was?
No idea. That men tried to use women bound to them as status symbol?

What do you think about Ancient Greece, by the way? I'd wager that most men then (especially in Sparta) would've had most of their...relations with other men, rather than women. The relationships between mentors and students were de facto marriages.

like polygamists.
You mean Mormons? What's wrong with polygamy?

since when?
Since the foundation of the United States of America.

getting all philosophical hmmm? windbagish even
I was of course referring to the definition of fascism I posted above.

Oh, and anti-intellectualism is another hallmark for fascist movements.

tell that to the Iraq vets
Iraq ain't a battlefield. It's cities, and countryside, and people live there. And besides, I'd wager that most Iraq veterans have never seen a terrorist. Even the units that go into some sort of combat have a statistically relatively low chance of facing terrorists rather than Saddam loyalists (if they still exist, that is) or other resistance.
Most of the injured veterans coming back never saw the guy who injured them.

we are at war with fundamentalist Islam. Not terrorism
Either way, it's a scapegoat that you use to force individuals to comply with your ideas about what a society should be.

the individual has freedom to live within the confines of the nation's laws....I thought that was basic
And what if the laws are unjust? What if they're made by Islamic fundamentalists, or commie dictators?

No, the individual's judgement comes first, up to the point where one individual uses force against another or his/her property.

I put the security of the American people above the lives of those who wish to destroy America.
What is America to you? Is the symbolism that I used to say exactly what you are saying not true?
Would you not sacrifice innocent people for the good of "America"?

Since the government is the only body with the possibility of doing it to the point of sufficiency, the government should do it.


This is only true since goverment and the capitalist private sector created an addiction/dependence on the welfare state to the exclusion of other possibilities.

I recently finished reading From Mutual Aid to the Welfare State, by David T. Beito, which documents the history of voluntary cooperative mutual aid socieities in the United States up to the rise of New Deal, Social Security and other government programs. These "friendly" societies essentially amounted to groups of individuals who voluntarily paid fees which went toward providing medical insurance, life insurance, funeral benefits, sick/unemployment benefits, doctors, nurses, hospitals, orphanages, retirement/convalescent homes, and other general social welfare services.

Of course, the profit motive moved private commercial enterprises (including doctors/medical professionals) to oppose these voluntary organizations because of their ability to render services at much reduced prices, the natural tendency for market competition to reduce profits being the capitalist's mortal enemy. Thus, the plethora of historical examples of private enterprise colluding with the state for the purpose of destroying competition, including this case. And, of course, Progressive movement politicians aimed to create the welfare state (out of, in my opinion, nothing more than the completely selfish motovation of getting and keeping votes) by creating legislative barriers to voluntary, cooperative, and non-statist social welfare organizations.

So yes, now that the private sector and government have gone to the trouble of creating all sorts of legislative and regulatory barriers to voluntary cooperative mutual aid not dependent on government, creating a hierarchical and economic dependence on politicians and the state, government is seen as the "only" choice. In reality, however, another choice remains: break the state monopoly on social welfare. Eliminate so-called "charity" (yet more hierarchical dependence and addiction that destroys individual autonomy) and the welfare state and return social welfare and mutual aid to the people, where it belongs.

that fact that my mother paying $248,000 a year in taxes is insane,

And what does your mother make a year?

I know I'm coming late to this party, but you became a conservative by signing up for the Australian Liberal Party? What a wonderfully strange trip Australian politics must be. :p

I know I'm coming late to this party, but you became a conservative by signing up for the Australian Liberal Party? What a wonderfully strange trip Australian politics must be. :p

The word liberal is just a word. It could mean anything if people want it to.

The word liberal is just a word. It could mean anything if people want it to.
Hey hey, dude. Relativism is all fine and dandy, but if we don't have a language that clearly defines what we want to talk about, we might as well go back to grunting.

Liberalism as a word and concept is clearly defined, the roots to be found in the Enlightenment. Neither the Yanks nor the Australians use it properly.

Hey hey, dude. Relativism is all fine and dandy, but if we don't have a language that clearly defines what we want to talk about, we might as well go back to grunting.

Liberalism as a word and concept is clearly defined, the roots to be found in the Enlightenment. Neither the Yanks nor the Australians use it properly.
Because it represents an upper-middle class intellectual ideology, that when it was founded, represented a more 'liberal' alternative to the Catholic Church and Trade Union dominated Labor Party

I know I'm coming late to this party, but you became a conservative by signing up for the Australian Liberal Party? What a wonderfully strange trip Australian politics must be. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_conservatism

Another thing the working classes love to forget, is that it costs a lot of money to be middle class. With economic roller-coastering and a massive drop in consumer confidence, damn straight we face financial ruin! It costs a lot of money to run a business, provide decent education and a standard of living.
Having just checked Oz tax limits, Rot's mum would have had to earn ~$600 000 to pay $248 000 in tax.

Which means she was struggling to get by on a measely $7000 a week (after tax). Bearing in mind that the average weekly earnings in Oz is ~$800 /week.

My, How the Rot family must strive and struggle on a hand-to-mouth existence, living off just 8.5 times what the average family lives on.

How tough that must be.

I drive a Mercedes Benz c180, I have a trust fund, I just can't be bothered pretending to give a rats
Oh, the poor little rich boy.

No doubt he's so upset because mummy can't afford to buy him a newer merc this year due to all the nasty taxes she has to pay.

Who else feels sorry for him?

Having just checked Oz tax limits, Rot's mum would have had to earn ~$600 000 to pay $248 000 in tax.

Which means she was struggling to get by on a measely $7000 a week (after tax). Bearing in mind that the average weekly earnings in Oz is ~$800 /week.

My, How the Rot family must strive and struggle on a hand-to-mouth existence, living off just 8.5 times what the average family lives on.

How tough that must be.


Oh, the poor little rich boy.

No doubt he's so upset because mummy can't afford to buy him a newer merc this year due to all the nasty taxes she has to pay.

Who else feels sorry for him?

Bwahaha! Dang, and I thought my family was well off.

Who else feels sorry for him?

hmm, ye... no.

I am perplexed as to how you both claim to know me so well and are ignorant of my most basic views at the same time! I but symbolism and a flag above human life? Hardly. I put the security of the American people above the lives of those who wish to destroy America.
You do exactly the same thing to anyone who dares disagree with you. "You don't know ______", where _______ is whatever you're ranting about. If you wish to play that game, fine, but don't bitch about it when someone nails you for the same thing.

You also have an obsession with labeling people, most notably as Democrats whenever they don't agree with you, but labeling regardless. I'm glad that helps you get through the day, but it doesn't say anything good about you. Not that you care, and why should you? You're completely immune to anything but propaganda to the point where all you do is recycle the same arguments over and over again regardless of the thread you're in.

If you are the ONLY person "allowed" to represent America, then fuck America and all it stands for. MY America is big enough and grand enough for EVERYONE. Even you.

Where do you get this stuff?
His colon.

What the hell kind of Christians are you people? You're sympathising with a woman who after taxes, is still left with twelve times the median income.

Don't you give a shit about the poor at all? I think they need money more than her.

I'm sorry to have to do this, but

*SNIP the RIGHTEOUS BIBLE QUOTES, BABY*

As you can clearly see, it is wrong that some people have so much money while others in the same society have so little.

Even some on the atheist left are acting more Christian, in my opinion, than you people. That is a depressing thought.
Has anyone noticed that since Meath Street posted this slam dunk of a Scriptural rebuttal of BarryGoldwater's horseshit, that BG has disappeared?

BG prides himself -- no, brags incessantly -- on his religious position and Biblical knowledge. He once barked at me that he'd "read it cover to cover twice" and knew more about it than anyone in that thread. Seems to me he just got PWNED by the Word of God.

I can only say one thing:

YEAH.