NationStates Jolt Archive

This is an article by web-comic artist Tim Buckley, I think it raises an interesting point. If sufficient safe-guards were put in place, I wouldn't have a major problem with it. Plus I am ALWAYS losing all my important stuff.


Intel Inside?

By Tim Buckley

My puppy went in for surgery last week to get spayed. When I dropped her off, they asked me if I wanted to get her microchipped as well. I told them she'd been microchipped already when she was a baby. If she ever gets lost, all animal services has to do is pass a scanner over her, and immediately they'll know where she lives, and how to contact me. It got me thinking a little bit... how come we don't microchip humans?

I mean, obviously we have the technology. Aside from the obvious uses, such as identifying lost children and corpses (hopefully not one and the same), they could be used for simple identification. We could do away with licenses alltogether. Want to buy alcohol? Just swipe your wrist under a scanner.

Obviously the majority of the people who would object (unless there's something I'm not thinking of) would be the people who have something to hide. Criminals, illegal immigrants, or kids who want to use fake ID's. Which begs the question: do we really care about what these people want anyway? I certainly don't. In fact, I'm all for making it harder for criminals to hide.

Now, I'm not saying we should go as far as being tracked via satellite from space or anything. No cameras in our home or having our emails read. I'm talking strictly about identification, which we all have to carry anyway. But we have to carry lots of it. Our license, our medical insurance cards, our social security card, emergency contact, etc. How many times have you gone out and forgotten your license? It's happened to me a few times.

What if you were in a car accident alone, knocked unconscious and none of your identification carries some important information, like your blood type or medical allergies? What if the EMT could scan your microchip and have that information immediately, along with family members to call and notify?

You could be chipped at a young age, and when you pass your driver's test, they just update the information in the database to reflect that you are legal to drive. And again, when you turn eighteen, or twenty one, the chip will reflect that.

What about if you had to swipe your chip when buying age restricted materials, and your random chip number was attached to the purchase somehow. So when a mother goes and buys her son a bloody, violent M-rated game, and then turns around and starts bitching that the game is violent, we can go to the record and say "Hey moron, YOU bought it for him. Wake up, you stupid shit."

Like I said, unless you're trying to hide something (and there are no legitimate, legal reasons to carry a fake ID), identification is something we all already deal with. So why not make it easier and more efficient?

Edit: Oops, original article http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/#1170

Would it stop...say....a random 14-year old from getting to porn?

Also, C+A+D is awesome.

Would it stop...say....a random 14-year old from getting to porn?

Not with the internet around.

Not with the internet around.

Aye, but what if they built a scanner into computers that could check your age?

Aye, but what if they built a scanner into computers that could check your age?

Somebody somewhere would find a way to hack it is what.

Somebody somewhere would find a way to hack it is what.

I know, but how long would you have to wait? Would they continue to update the device as the hacks come along?

I'm all for micro chipping dogs. But people? I'm not so sure. It would start off as just a chip with info but then it would develop into a tracking device. Some genius would implement the idea when the chips are already in........I have no objection to chipping criminals depending on their crime.

So long as it's voluntary I don't care. Do what you want to yourself. Just don't drag me into it. Just do me a favor and try not to turn it into a tracking chip. A medical history maybe but tracking is taking it too far.

It'd finally give goverments the opportunity to track anyone anywhere. I suppose it'll make solving crimes easier, you know exactly who was in close proximity.
Just hope the goverment doesn't have an agenda contrary to the best interest of the people..

Why don't we put cameras in every public place - hm....why not a step further, and inside everyone's home? That way we could stop all illegal activities once and for all.

If you object, you must have something to hide.

Absolutely not. No way.

Yikes, what a thought. Bye bye privacy; hello totalitarianism.

Why don't we put cameras in every public place - hm....why not a step further, and inside everyone's home? That way we could stop all illegal activities once and for all.

If you object, you must have something to hide.
Hey, we could build the cameras into televisions! Instead of having an "off" button they could be used to quietly and discreetly broadcast patriotic messages and important advertisments whenever not in use! An excellent idea!

Seriously, to the OP: No. Not now. Not ever.

Hey, we could build the cameras into televisions!

In Soviet Russia, TV watches YOU!!

While we're at it and microchip dogs and whatnot, sure, we put some chips in them humans as well. Hell, why not tattoo a number, their name, their bloodtype etc. on their arm? :mad:

Don't like it, won't have it!

Yep. Considering I'm severely pro-transhumanist, this is a logical choice for me. But that's just me. I'd make it an optional service.

Absolutely not. No way.

Yikes, what a thought. Bye bye privacy; hello totalitarianism.
Really?
And what's new?


:eek:

Absolutely not. No way.

Yikes, what a thought. Bye bye privacy; hello totalitarianism.
Do you own ID? Yes? What's the difference?

Do you own ID? Yes? What's the difference?
Are you seriously asking what the difference is between carrying a driving licence and being microchipped?

Please tell me you're not really asking that.

Do you own ID? Yes? What's the difference?
The ID (in my case, my driving licence) is seperate to me. People see me, they don't have any way of identifying me, unless I choose to identify myself to them.
Also, the ID can't be used to track everything I do; my purchases, where I've been, that kind of thing, as the infrastructure to do so isn't in place (and I don't need ID with me to buy things, or need to show it when I go places). With readers in the "correct" places (or maybe even satellite tracking, but these chips don't work in a way currently compatible with that), this could be used to track anyone, anywhere, all the time.

Edit: Also, I don't have to carry it everywhere with me, and even if I choose to do so nobody can read it unless I show them; ie. my explicit permission to do so.

Do you own ID? Yes? What's the difference?
You can actually choose whom to show your ID. Anything that can be read by a scanner can also be read by your average stalker or whatever. I guess there'd be a scanner device in cell phones a few months after the introduction of human microchips...

i like the idea myself.

but i can see robberies getting a bit messier.
slice open the body part to remove the chip. Or simply remove the hand/arm.

The ID (in my case, my driving licence) is seperate to me. People see me, they don't have any way of identifying me, unless I choose to identify myself to them.
Also, the ID can't be used to track everything I do; my purchases, where I've been, that kind of thing, as the infrastructure to do so isn't in place (and I don't need ID with me to buy things, or need to show it when I go places). With readers in the "correct" places (or maybe even satellite tracking, but these chips don't work in a way currently compatible with that), this could be used to track anyone, anywhere, all the time.

Edit: Also, I don't have to carry it everywhere with me, and even if I choose to do so nobody can read it unless I show them; ie. my explicit permission to do so.
Very well, how about this solution:

A wristwatch that contains all your ID details, and acts the same way the microchip would, but which can be removed at will.

Very well, how about this solution:

A wristwatch that contains all your ID details, and acts the same way the microchip would, but which can be removed at will.
Why? The only 'advantage' of such a system is in crime reduction and prevention, and now you're saying that criminals should be able to take it off?

Why? The only 'advantage' of such a system is in crime reduction and prevention, and now you're saying that criminals should be able to take it off?
I see many advantages, but I'm a transhumanist. I see melding humanity and technology as desirable. The only non-transhumanist argument for either solution is that it saves us having to carry around ID.

Absolutely not. No way.

Yikes, what a thought. Bye bye privacy; hello totalitarianism.
in soviet russia, internet surfs you.

Very well, how about this solution:

A wristwatch that contains all your ID details, and acts the same way the microchip would, but which can be removed at will.
But can it be turned off at will? You'd still be able to read it without my permission if not.
What will it be required for?

If it's required for the same things I need my driving licence for (eg. opening bank accounts, renting flats) then what's the point? I have a driving licence for that already. It also lets me drive cars.
If it's required for other things then people are getting too bloody nosy, so no.

If you can take it off at will it will lose the "advantage" of the chip (being able to track people anywhere), so will be pointless.
We already have perfectly serviceable ID documents; birth certificates, driving licences and passports. Only one of those is compulsory, but that's fine as it doesn't contain any particularly important or identifying information.

The only non-transhumanist argument for either solution is that it saves us having to carry around ID.
We don't have to carry around ID. It's required so infrequently that we can leave it at home almost all of the time.

*shrugs*

This is something you either see as logical, or something you oppose. Opposing it will do you no good, since within ten or so years you will not be able to purchase/identify yourself without an implant. It's inevitable, and I welcome it.

*shrugs*

This is something you either see as logical, or something you oppose. Opposing it will do you no good, since within ten or so years you will not be able to purchase/identify yourself without an implant. It's inevitable, and I welcome it.
I chuckle at your misplaced optimism.

As totalitarian as our government would like to be, it's fortunately also incompetent, especially where IT systems are concerned. It can't even get its beloved ID Card scheme off the ground (and can only get it through parliament with the damnable Parliament Act), so we're safe from implants for some time yet.

*Note to self: Get new passport before going on their spy-database is mandatory.

I chuckle at your misplaced optimism.
I counter your chuckle with a throaty belly-laugh at your fear of the inevitable.

I counter our chuckle with a throaty belly-laugh at your fear of the inevitable.
We'll come back in ten years and see which one of us is right.

Seeing as the Government can't even manage a ID card system, I feel confident in my bet.

I counter your chuckle with a throaty belly-laugh at your fear of the inevitable.
Pain and death are inevitable. You don't have to welcome them.

We'll come back in ten years and see which one of us is right.

Seeing as the Government can't even manage a ID card system, I feel confident in my bet.
Chances are it will be embraced by the commercial industry first. Your credit card? Reduced in size and stuck inside your wrist.

Pain and death are inevitable. You don't have to welcome them.
Considering transhumanism seeks to eliminate pain and death through technology, I'd agree with you. :)

Considering transhumanism seeks to eliminate pain and death through technology, I'd agree with you. :)
So essentially, you believe sci-fi through fear of death.

So essentially, you believe sci-fi through fear of death.
Huh? No, I believe that death can ultimately be solved, just like any other problem. I, personally, have no intentions of living beyond sixty.

Huh? No, I believe that death can ultimately be solved, just like any other problem. I, personally, have no intentions of living beyond sixty.
Why is death something that needs to be 'solved'? Death is part of what defines us as human.

Who wants to live forever?

Why is death something that needs to be 'solved'? Death is part of what defines us as human.

Who wants to live forever?
What's so good about being human?

Who wants to live forever?
When love must die...

Sorry.

What's so good about being human?
What's so bad about it?

What's so bad about it?

*shrug* We won't know till we have something to compare it to.

Who wants to live forever?Well, not forever (not past the heat death of the universe in any case..) But an indefinite lifespan would have certain advantages. (As long as you don't age too much and mentally degrade to a blithering babbling lunatic..)
You could almost try everything once (except the various forms of suicide).

*shrug* We won't know till we have something to compare it to.
Why do you need to compare it to anything? Can you not enjoy what you have, and the life you lead?

What's so bad about it?
Humanity can be improved. Humans age and die. Humans have limited intellectual capacity. Humans are fundamentally limited due to their physical nature. All these things I believe will eventually be solved via technology.

What's so bad about it?
Our bodies have room for improvement. But any augmentations should be entirely up to the person receiving them, like tatoos.

It's science fiction at the moment, but eventually prosthetic legs will be stronger and faster than the ones you're born with. If you wish to have the improved legs fitted, there's no reason to deny it. If you don't, there's no reason to force it.

Saying that, not even I would wish immortality on my worst enemy. It would be so dull!

Humanity can be improved. Humans age and die. Humans have limited intellectual capacity. Humans are fundamentally limited due to their physical nature. All these things I believe will eventually be solved via technology.
Again, this is all part of being human.

Perfection is a worrying goal.

Again, this is all part of being human.

Perfection is a worrying goal.
But... why? You seem to overrate humanity by a significant amount. We are nothing. We are weak, we are stupid and we are finite. Why not change this?

Two problems I see:
(1) If it's to be implanted, then it's got to be RFID. Well, RFID just broadcasts whatever it's using for a short radius whether there's a receiver nearby or not. All some guy has to do is pass a scanner by your wrist or whatever and, voilà, now he's got all your info.
(2) If it's to be implanted, then how do they update the thing short of cutting it out?

But... why? You seem to overrate humanity by a significant amount. We are nothing. We are weak, we are stupid and we are finite. Why not change this?
And you seem to underrate humanity. We have great strengths; we are intellegent, and we have the potential to do great good. It's not my fault if you have an inferiority complex about your species.

And you seem to underrate humanity. We have great strengths; we are intellegent, and we have the potential to do great good. It's not my fault if you have an inferiority complex about your species.
On the contrary, I have great faith that humanity has enough intelligence to improve itself.

On the contrary, I have great faith that humanity has enough intelligence to improve itself.
Only if you see perfection as an 'improvement'. I believe mistakes and falls are how we learn and grow; immortality and indestructability leads to arrogance.

For example, what would be wrong with war if we were immortal? We could just nuke the hell out of each other all day, everyday, and no one would die. Not exactly an 'improved world', though.

Why do you need to compare it to anything? Can you not enjoy what you have, and the life you lead?

Well, so many people have told me bad must exist in order to be able to comprehend good, I figure we need to compare two things to understand the value of one.

Two problems I see:
(1) If it's to be implanted, then it's got to be RFID. Well, RFID just broadcasts whatever it's using for a short radius whether there's a receiver nearby or not. All some guy has to do is pass a scanner by your wrist or whatever and, voilà, now he's got all your info.
(2) If it's to be implanted, then how do they update the thing short of cutting it out?
1) I think the way it actually works is the "receiver" actually transmits a signal that powers the chip which transmits a different signal that the receiver picks up. So it does only "transmit" when a receiver's nearby, technically. But that's off the top of my head, I've not looked it up.
2) I'd imagine some form of EEPROM, so it could be re-programmed by a transmitter. There are obvious concerns there, of course...

Well, so many people have told me bad must exist in order to be able to comprehend good, I figure we need to compare two things to understand the value of one.
Compare it to the animals then. Would you rather be one of those larvae who only live for 24 hours?

Incidentaly, despite your ever so brilliantly disguised aside there, I'm not someone who defends God in such terms.

Only if you see perfection as an 'improvement'. I believe mistakes and falls are how we learn and grow; immortality and indestructability leads to arrogance.

For example, what would be wrong with war if we were immortal? We could just nuke the hell out of each other all day, everyday, and no one would die. Not exactly an 'improved world', though.
Imperfections lead to pain and suffering. Arrogance does not concern me, I am already arrogant.

On the subject of war: you have missed the point. There would be no war if everyone was immortal and perpetually happy (the ideal form of Transhumanism).

Imperfections lead to pain and suffering. Arrogance does not concern me, I am already arrogant.
Then you are a fool.

On the subject of war: you have missed the point. There would be no war if everyone was immortal and perpetually happy (the ideal form of Transhumanism).
Yes, and in the ideal form of Communism we all love each other; in the ideal form of capitalism there is no poverty; in the ideal form of environmentalism the trees hug us and the sun shines more brightly everyday.

'Ideal' and 'reality' are mutually exclusive.

Compare it to the animals then. Would you rather be one of those larvae who only live for 24 hours?

Incidentaly, despite your ever so brilliantly disguised aside there, I'm not someone who defends God in such terms.

I've never been one. Who says a larva cannot live a complete and enjoyable life in 24 hours? None of us has even been one, I don't know what would make anyone think they know.

'Ideal' and 'reality' are mutually exclusive.That doesn't mean we can reduce the distance between them.

'Ideal' and 'reality' are mutually exclusive.
This is true. But it doesn't mean we can't strive to make things better, even if it's inevitable we'll cock it all up along the way.

If nobody had ever tried to make their lot better we'd still be hunter-gatherers living in caves and trees.

Got to mod-chip myself ... :D

Somebody somewhere would find a way to hack it is what.

Yes, reliance on it as certain identification is as foolish as photo ID. Got a hologram logo on your nation's ID? There's holograms on $2 christmas paper from China.

RFID can be copied. Encrypted (interactive) RFID can be cracked. It's like entrusting your ass to the encryption used for DVD. Where there's a will there's a way.In Soviet Russia, TV watches YOU!!
Old. In 1984 (the novel) "some people said that the visiscreen watches everything you do" (roughly, never confirmed by Winston as first person) Go http://www.online-literature.com/booksearch.php if you care.)
The ID (in my case, my driving licence) is seperate to me. People see me, they don't have any way of identifying me, unless I choose to identify myself to them.
Damn. You said it. Still catching up. Great thread, sorry I'm not there yet.
*shrugs*
This is something you either see as logical, or something you oppose. Opposing it will do you no good, since within ten or so years you will not be able to purchase/identify yourself without an implant.
I'm OK with that. As things are going, in ten years I'll be up in the hills, trying to hide my IR signature by living underground and wearing a snowsuit when I'm out, and shooting down drones with a good 'ol AK. ;)
"Resistance is futile" = the dictum of 'progress at all costs.'Well, not forever (not past the heat death of the universe in any case..) But an indefinite lifespan would have certain advantages. (As long as you don't age too much and mentally degrade to a blithering babbling lunatic..)
Sorry. You will. I'm in my forties, I've avoided stress, irrevocable decisions, and red meat. Age is in the mind, regardless of what the body does. But dream on.
You could almost try everything once (except the various forms of suicide).It isn't physical mortality which restricts our experiences. Unless you are very very active and live a very chaotic life ... in which case you'll probably die at 35 in a caving accident. Our bodies have room for improvement. But any augmentations should be entirely up to the person receiving them, like tatoos.
Agreed.
It's science fiction at the moment, but eventually prosthetic legs will be stronger and faster than the ones you're born with. If you wish to have the improved legs fitted, there's no reason to deny it. I ride a bicycle. If I could do 100 kmph on the highway, with the wind in my hair and without paying a cent for petrol, motorists would be even more eager to run me down.
Two problems I see:
(1) If it's to be implanted, then it's got to be RFID. <snip>
You said the magic word. RFID. Anything that is passive, and works without the bearer's consent, transmitting information they did not specifically and knowingly divulge, is going to ... sorry to use such a gut word ... suck. They can take their RFID, and the puny encryption they'll put in it, and shove it right up their own ass (as opposed to mine, as they want to do), along with their DVD encryption, and their DMCA, and all their other retarded attempts to use computer technology to restrict our rights rather than extend our capabilities. I'd say fuck them, but it's a fait accompli.
1) I think the way it actually works is <snip> So it does only "transmit" when a receiver's nearby, technically.<snip> I'd imagine some form of EEPROM, so it cou ,snip>.
See DVD, above. Where there's a will there's a way. Avoiding identification, faking another's identity, is a far stronger motive than "Nobel Hobos bought another packet of Marlboros today." Technology is freedom, and myimplanted chip will say just what I want it to say. My body, my choice.

Sorry the long rave, everyone. I have email: jjvs@pnc.com.au

Yeah, that it could probably be remotely reprogrammed was my point in the last one.

Just looked up RFID and it turns out the way it works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID) is pretty close to my guess. Go me!

Also:
Security experts are warning against using RFID for authenticating people due to the risk of Identity Theft. For instance a Mafia Fraud Attack would make it possible for an attacker to steal the identity of a person in real-time. Due to the resource-constraints of RFIDs it is virtually impossible to protect against such attack models as this would require complex distance-binding protocols.
Sounds like a good reason not to to me...

It isn't physical mortality which restricts our experiences.Sure it does, it's not the only thing, certainly, but it plays a part. There are loads of things I might try if I didn't think there was a chance it'd kill me.
And even aside from that. There is only so much you can do in limited time (even if you're not going to do even that much). More time gives more opportunity.

Yeah, that it could probably be remotely reprogrammed was my point in the last one.

<snip>.

I meant no disrespect to any poster, least of all you, CD.
(Hey, you're a CD. Not encrypted at all. Congrats.)
Just establishing that I'm up to date on the thread, now, and have strong opinions.

EDIT: I've spent time on slashdot.org and know more about this than I really want to. Scares the crap out of me: not the possibiliites, but the mindless faith of the control-freaks who will rely on it, and lie to themselves that it's even half as good as face-recognition (which works for me.)

They already have this at some swanky club in Europe somewhere. I remember reading about it, the members have a chip implanted under their skin. I'll find a link.

Edit: Here y'are

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3697940.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn5022

@Nobel Hobos: I know. Just clarifying :)

@Fartsniffage: Your edit beat me to it, but it's also mentioned in the Wiki article on RFID.

At the risk of sounding ridiculous, maybe the looneys in Times Square handing out the leaflets about how the bar code is the mark of the beast and that everyone will choose/be forced to wear one and the end times are coming aren't as looney as I initially thought.

I do not think microchipping humans is at ALL a good idea. I should THINK it violates a number of civil liberties if it is not done voluntarily.

Why don't we put cameras in every public place - hm....why not a step further, and inside everyone's home? That way we could stop all illegal activities once and for all.

If you object, you must have something to hide.

How Miniluv of you.

Humanity can be improved. Humans age and die. Humans have limited intellectual capacity. Humans are fundamentally limited due to their physical nature. All these things I believe will eventually be solved via technology.


Unless we get space colonization underway, the Earth could never support the teeming masses of functionally immortal people who don't die unless they want to/through accident.

Got to mod-chip myself ... :D


What?! OMG they kn---
BZZZZT!

Help, we're all....
BZZZZZT!

Everything is fine, absolutely fine. Go about your business, nothing to see here....;)

How Miniluv of you.

Heheh :p

Sure it does, it's not the only thing, certainly, but it plays a part. There are loads of things I might try if I didn't think there was a chance it'd kill me.
And even aside from that. There is only so much you can do in limited time (even if you're not going to do even that much). More time gives more opportunity.

OK, shit from the hop there. I mean shat from the hep. NO! Hot from the ship.

Damn! I shot from the lip. Physical mortality, the fear of losing our bodies, limits everything we do. And what we can do limits what we think, or so I believe.

I just meant, unlimited time doesn't allow us unlimited experience. If anything, the burden of mortality increases, diminishing the risks we're prepared to take. And more.
Nutty old dudes, threatening you with a sickle. Never had that? You know they don't want to do it, they know you know, you just don't want them to fall over and have an accident. It's not just their bodies, and the way their hands shake. It's wisdom. Wisdom consists in knowing what not to do. It's crippling, with or without the shaking hands and the failing memory.

Everything is fine, absolutely fine. Go about your business, nothing to see here....;)

Go about your business, nothing to see here.... 1,0,2,1,5

At the risk of sounding ridiculous, maybe the looneys in Times Square handing out the leaflets about how the bar code is the mark of the beast and that everyone will choose/be forced to wear one and the end times are coming aren't as looney as I initially thought..

Read the leaflets. They aren't loonies, they are enlightened retards.

There is sense there. Someone chooses to express it through nonsense!
Don't think about that too carefully.

Please, SOMEONE, distract me from these dire imaginings!@

Nah... I don't like the idea at all.

I beleive that it is my right to get away with breaking small laws on a daily baisis. You can't do then when you're chipped.

Nah... I don't like the idea at all.

I beleive that it is my right to get away with breaking small laws on a daily baisis. You can't do then when you're chipped.

Spellcheck is the enemy. Fight the spellcheck!

I don't really like the idea, it seems, just......wrong.

I don't like the idea of there being this "big database of everything smunkee" I know I am already in the "system" so much that I don't want to think about it, but there are trends that worry me (you can get out your foil hat now)

did you know that at my local grocery store they won't sell you groceries without knowing your phone number, even if you are paying cash, they say they keep a computer database in the back so they can see what you buy and mail you coupons........I don't want them to know what I buy, I can find my own coupons thankyouverymuch.

The fact that the local grocery store has a huge database of all my grocery purchases bothers me, a LOT. I am not trying to hide anything, really. I just don't like that much information about me floating around......it's weird.

This is an article by web-comic artist Tim Buckley, I think it raises an interesting point. If sufficient safe-guards were put in place, I wouldn't have a major problem with it. Plus I am ALWAYS losing all my important stuff.



Edit: Oops, original article http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/#1170
He's slightly wrong, though. There's one big group that I think is going to oppose it: The religious right. I can't wait to see more "mark of the beast" propaganda...

He's slightly wrong, though. There's one big group that I think is going to oppose it: The religious right. I can't wait to see more "mark of the beast" propaganda...
(Sigh) unforunately, yeah... I could live without having "end times" propaganda blown in my face.