NationStates Jolt Archive

:confused: This video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY&mode=related&search=) makes a claim, that before 9-11 there was no group known as Al-Qaeda. It goes on to say that Osama Bin Laden never had a large terrorist group, but rather he helped fund many smaller groups of disillusioned moslem militia. They make a seemingly good arguement. Anyone have any proof to debunk this, or can their claim be some what accurate?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/binladen.gif says: "Don't believe the infidels!"

Dude, I say this all the time.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/binladen.gif says: "Don't believe the infidels!"


lol

Dude, I say this all the time.


You say that Al-qaeda doesn't exist???

So the name "Al-Qaeda" isn't subject to copyright laws then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_U.S._embassy_bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach

Outside of the fact that I remember Al Qaeda being mentioned as the perpetrators in the first two attacks, as well as the target of Operation Infinite Reach...

Al-Qaeda exists in a kind of metaphysical plane where while its existance is unproveable, its effects are clear.

So the name "Al-Qaeda" isn't subject to copyright laws then?
I'm still amazed that one could copyright phrases like that at all. It only means "The Way" if I'm not completely off. [For example, I do not understand how a term like "I'm loving it!" could be trademarked or copyrighted!]

:confused: This video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY&mode=related&search=) makes a claim, that before 9-11 there was no group known as Al-Qaeda. It goes on to say that Osama Bin Laden never had a large terrorist group, but rather he helped fund many smaller groups of disillusioned moslem militia. They make a seemingly good arguement. Anyone have any proof to debunk this, or can their claim be some what accurate?


no...the group had been making claims for years before, bombing of the Cole, '93 WTC bombing, embassy bombing. All Al Qaeda. His group may have grown from its early days though. Who are we fighting in Afghanistan then? Its probably true that there is only a small inner circle of real Al qaeda but there are thousands of people who allign themselves with it and fight under its name and in the name of Bin Laden.

and no. nobody could provide any good evidence to debunk it, but also there is no way to PROVE that this information is true. the arguement they make is just as good as the grassy knoll theory about the kennedy assassination.

I'm still amazed that one could copyright phrases like that at all. It only means "The Way" if I'm not completely off. [For example, I do not understand how a term like "I'm loving it!" could be trademarked or copyrighted!]


It means "The Base"

It only means "The Way" if I'm not completely off.

Or possibly 'The Foundation'.*




* and as an passing sci-fi geek will tell you The Foundation was all a sham which was designed to gain public exposure and appear to act as a catalyst for other events, while the secret Second Foundation was actually pulling all the strings in the background. Make of that what you will.

Or possibly 'The Foundation'.*




* and as an passing sci-fi geek will tell you The Foundation was all a sham which was designed to gain public exposure and appear to act as a catalyst for other events, while the secret Second Foundation was actually pulling all the strings in the background. Make of that what you will.



His best books ever. (and his last :( )

:confused: This video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY&mode=related&search=) makes a claim, that before 9-11 there was no group known as Al-Qaeda. It goes on to say that Osama Bin Laden never had a large terrorist group, but rather he helped fund many smaller groups of disillusioned moslem militia. They make a seemingly good arguement. Anyone have any proof to debunk this, or can their claim be some what accurate?


WOW!

Next you'll be telling me that the Jews were given advance notice of 9-11 attacks, A missle not a plane hit the Pentagon, and that there's now way two planes could take down the towers.

When someone puts out a piece of propaganda garbage like this and it's proven false they should be arrested for sedition.

It means "The Base"
Or possibly 'The Foundation'.*
Yeah. Whichever one. That Al-Q one...


* and as an passing sci-fi geek will tell you The Foundation was all a sham which was designed to gain public exposure and appear to act as a catalyst for other events, while the secret Second Foundation was actually pulling all the strings in the background. Make of that what you will.
Hehe. I read that 20 years ago when I was a kid :D

For example, I do not understand how a term like "I'm loving it!" could be trademarked or copyrighted!
Osama copyrighted that, too!?

Al-Jihad™ - I'm Lovin' It! ®

Edit: there have been similar claims about the (in-)existence of the Dutch Hofstad Network. I'm not much of a believer. But depicting a group of radical idiots as a terrorist organisation is a lot scarier, of course. Fits the political agenda.

Hehe. I read that 20 years ago when I was a kid :D

Isaac Asimov died in 1992.

The first attack carried out by Al Qaeda was in 1992.

You do the maths.

Isaac Asimov died in 1992.

The first attack carried out by Al Qaeda was in 1992.

You do the maths.

It's even worse. Isaac Asimov was friends with L. Ron Hubbard for a while.

They're everywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_U.S._embassy_bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach

Outside of the fact that I remember Al Qaeda being mentioned as the perpetrators in the first two attacks, as well as the target of Operation Infinite Reach...
And wiki is a proper source for this information?

I always suspected thaat Bin Laden was just a large meat puppet with a funny hat.

Thanks for sharing the info..

Al Queadas a myth..so we can go concentrate on other exloding people from different organizations .

You say that Al-qaeda doesn't exist???
I say that it isn’t a powerful organization and that the Northern Alliance was a bunch of scum we shouldn’t have allied with.

That was part of a 3 hour documentary called “The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares).

It never, as such, claim that there were no terrorist groups in Afghanistan. However, it does make the claim that the organisation “Al Quada” is an American construct, used to help prosecute Bin Laden in absentia (as there had to be an organisation in order to be able to prosecute the leaders). Apparently, Bin Laden never used the name before he realised that this was what the Americans called him.
And so, in that sense, Al Quada never existed as a group, it is merely a name used by a few radical Islamists to scare the living daylight out of any American who hears it.

You should check out the link and download the documentary (it is available for free). It makes some very interesting observations, even though it sometimes resorts to rather “cheap tricks” to get the point across.

no...the group had been making claims for years before, bombing of the Cole, '93 WTC bombing, embassy bombing. All Al Qaeda. His group may have grown from its early days though. Who are we fighting in Afghanistan then?

uh....the...uh, taliban? I dont know, I forget.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/3618762.stm


So how does this squre with the other info ?

Hmmmm ?? The BBC is delusional ?

al-Qa'ida (The Base)
Qa‘idat al-Jihad
Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Places
World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
Islamic Salvation Foundation
Usama bin Laden Network

Al-Qa'ida is multi-national, with members from numerous countries and with a worldwide presence. Senior leaders in the organization are also senior leaders in other terrorist organizations, including those designated by the Department of State as foreign terrorist organizations, such as the Egyptian al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya and the Egyptian al-Jihad. Al-Qa'ida seeks a global radicalization of existing Islamic groups and the creation of radical Islamic groups where none exist.

Al-Qa'ida supports Muslim fighters in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Tajikistan, Somalia, Yemen, and Kosovo. It also trains members of terrorist organizations from such diverse countries as the Philippines, Algeria, and Eritrea.

Al-Qa'ida's goal is to "unite all Muslims and to establish a government which follows the rule of the Caliphs." Bin Laden has stated that the only way to establish the Caliphate is by force. Al-Qa'ida's goal, therefore, is to overthrow nearly all Muslim governments, which are viewed as corrupt, to drive Western influence from those countries, and eventually to abolish state boundaries.

Description

Established by Usama Bin Ladin in the late 1980s to bring together Arabs who fought in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. Helped finance, recruit, transport, and train Sunni Islamic extremists for the Afghan resistance. Current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems “non-Islamic” and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries–particularly Saudi Arabia. Issued statement under banner of “the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders” in February 1998, saying it was the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens—civilian or military—and their allies everywhere. Merged with Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Al-Jihad) in June 2001.



smoke and mirrors...

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm

By BENJAMIN WEISER and TIM GOLDEN

In early 1995, at a remote camp in Afghanistan, a 21-year-old Tanzanian man prepared to begin a new life as a soldier of Islam.

The young man, Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, had just completed training in weapons, explosives and religious studies. But rather than being sent off on a mission by the radical group that had prepared him, Al Qaeda, Mr. Mohamed was simply sent home

It was three more years before Mr. Mohamed got his call. Four months after that, he helped bomb the United States Embassy in Dar es Salaam, capital of Tanzania, one of two attacks in East Africa that day that killed 224 people and were attributed squarely to Al Qaeda and its founder, Osama bin Laden.

When Mr. Mohamed was captured in 1999, however, he told the F.B.I. that he was not really sure what Al Qaeda was, and that he had learned only through news reports who had sponsored his bombing. "KKM stated that he had never met Osama bin Laden, had not heard him speak, and that he did not know what Osama bin Laden looked like," the agents who debriefed him wrote.

As the United States prepares now to unleash war against Al Qaeda, its greatest challenge may be to find the front lines.

In little more than a decade, Mr. bin Laden has created a sprawling, global network of of men like Mr. Mohamed, terrorists-in-waiting whose skills and determination are often more finely honed than their loyalties to Al Qaeda or any of the groups to which it is allied.

The picture emerging from government documents, court transcripts and interviews is of an underground army so scattered and self- sustaining that even the elimination of Mr. bin Laden and his closest deputies might not eradicate the threat they have created.

"Bin Laden is the leader of a movement that doesn't necessarily need a leader to function and be effective," said Juliette N. Kayyem, a terrorism expert at the Harvard University Kennedy School of Government and a former member of the National Commission on Terrorism. "This is such a diffuse structure that it can survive without him."

Like the suspected hijackers who attacked New York and the Pentagon on Sept. 11, the militants of Al Qaeda's infantry may remain invisible for months or even years. They may slip quietly back into their homelands to await orders, or infiltrate into European cities or American suburbs as "sleepers" before being mobilized to wage what they see as jihad, or holy war.

Even before the Sept. 11 attacks, Mr. bin Laden's soldiers had sometimes confounded investigators' efforts to fit them into a coherent profile. They may be middle-aged veterans of the Afghan war or younger men outraged by the spread of Western culture. They may be well-educated or barely literate, from prosperous families or poor villages. Some may have sworn an oath directly to Mr. bin Laden; others, like Mr. Mohamed, may recognize only a loose allegiance to Al Qaeda, Arabic for "the Base."

The government's understanding of the decentralized nature of Al Qaeda dates at least to 1996, when Jamal Ahmed al-Fadl, a former aide to Mr. bin Laden, began secretly to cooperate with the United States. Mr. Fadl was among the first to join Mr. bin Laden in 1989, the year the Soviet Union withdrew its troops from Afghanistan after a devastating 10- year war.



http://www.therationalradical.com/documents/al-qaeda.htm

rational radical ?

And wiki is a proper source for this information?
Pretty much yeah. The facts of the matter are not being disputed, and while wikipedia is unfit to be used as a source for a serious academic paper, it is acceptable for a forum. Or would you rather I went and found another source?

:confused: This video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY&mode=related&search=) makes a claim, that before 9-11 there was no group known as Al-Qaeda. It goes on to say that Osama Bin Laden never had a large terrorist group, but rather he helped fund many smaller groups of disillusioned moslem militia. They make a seemingly good arguement. Anyone have any proof to debunk this, or can their claim be some what accurate?

Al-Qaeda are like Santa...only kids believe in them, which explains Bush!??

Al-Qaeda are like Santa...only kids believe in them, which explains Bush!??
Or not.

:confused: This video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY&mode=related&search=) makes a claim, that before 9-11 there was no group known as Al-Qaeda. It goes on to say that Osama Bin Laden never had a large terrorist group, but rather he helped fund many smaller groups of disillusioned moslem militia. They make a seemingly good arguement. Anyone have any proof to debunk this, or can their claim be some what accurate?
i think, rather than it not existing, al qaeda is simply not as cohesive and hierarchical as was previously believed. after 9/11, the bali nightclub bombings, the train bombings in spain and the bombing of the london transport network al qaeda was portrayed as a huge and highly organised terrorist group with bin laden at it's head. but it seems that, according to several news reports over the last few months (sorry, no links), al qaeda may just be a loose agglomeration of terrorist cells with some intercommunication acting largely on their own but sharing a common goal.

i think, rather than it not existing, al qaeda is simply not as cohesive and hierarchical as was previously believed. after 9/11, the bali nightclub bombings, the train bombings in spain and the bombing of the london transport network al qaeda was portrayed as a huge and highly organised terrorist group with bin laden at it's head. but it seems that, according to several news reports over the last few months (sorry, no links), al qaeda may just be a loose agglomeration of terrorist cells with some intercommunication acting largely on their own but sharing a common goal.
Which is similar to correct. They had a strong primary cell, that was based in Afghanistan, and was under the control of bin Laden and his lieutenants, but that was broken up by the US Invasion and removal of the Taliban. This primary cell was responsible for the majority of the large scale attacks against US interests prior to and including the attacks on September Eleventh.

WOW!

Next you'll be telling me that the Jews were given advance notice of 9-11 attacks, A missle not a plane hit the Pentagon, and that there's now way two planes could take down the towers.

When someone puts out a piece of propaganda garbage like this and it's proven false they should be arrested for sedition.

I take it you are not a big fan of Freedom of Speech. People should have the right to say their ideas and beliefs, no matter how ignorant it seems, or how wrong or right they may be.

Oh, Al-Queda exists alright. The problem with it, however, is that its decentralized nature makes it very hard to be eliminated thoroughly. Which is why, when Bush announced we had captured/killed 75% of A-Q's leadership, I wasn't as overjoyed as others were.

:confused: This video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY&mode=related&search=) makes a claim, that before 9-11 there was no group known as Al-Qaeda. It goes on to say that Osama Bin Laden never had a large terrorist group, but rather he helped fund many smaller groups of disillusioned moslem militia. They make a seemingly good arguement. Anyone have any proof to debunk this, or can their claim be some what accurate?


I can. I have no physical proof on me, but I can tell you Al-Queda had a training base in Nevada, which was hosted and kept fairly confidential by the CIA, before the Embassy Bombing back in '96.


That, and Osama bin Laden was also in command of a large guerrilla group in the Soviet-Afghan war, which eventually became Al-Queda. Therefore, that conspiricy is false.

Oh, Al-Queda exists alright. The problem with it, however, is that its decentralized nature makes it very hard to be eliminated thoroughly. Which is why, when Bush announced we had captured/killed 75% of A-Q's leadership, I wasn't as overjoyed as others were.


Good answer. When you kill a group like this's leadership, all that happens is someone else takes their place.

I take it you are not a big fan of Freedom of Speech. People should have the right to say their ideas and beliefs, no matter how ignorant it seems, or how wrong or right they may be.

This isn't a matter of beliefs, it's a matter of conspiracy nuts spreading propaganda during war time.

Good answer. When you kill a group like this's leadership, all that happens is someone else takes their place.


Yes because after Koresh was killed the Branch Davidians flourished.

The death of Hitler did little to stop the Nazis as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_U.S._embassy_bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach


Hmmm, using Wikipedia to prove a fact :rolleyes: ... very, very dubious.

On the other hand. Al-Qaeda has been around for a lot longer than the video that started this thread suggests.

Hmmm, using Wikipedia to prove a fact :rolleyes: ... very, very dubious.

On the other hand. Al-Qaeda has been around for a lot longer than the video that started this thread suggests.

1988 to be exact .

:confused: This video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY&mode=related&search=) makes a claim, that before 9-11 there was no group known as Al-Qaeda. It goes on to say that Osama Bin Laden never had a large terrorist group, but rather he helped fund many smaller groups of disillusioned moslem militia. They make a seemingly good arguement. Anyone have any proof to debunk this, or can their claim be some what accurate?

If you believe that, there's no such thing as Bush, or neocons, or the war in Iraq, or...

The death of Hitler did little to stop the Nazis as well.
The Nazis had a centralized government as their command structure. As I said before, A-Q's decentralized command structure makes it that much harder to eliminate than a centralized government.

It doesn't say it doesn't exist exactly - more that it doesn't exist as we know it, and there's been a hell of a lot of propoganda to strike fear and gain power.

Really, I'd advise anyone not make judgements unless you watch the full 3, hour long installments which can be found here (http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares).

On the other hand. Al-Qaeda has been around for a lot longer than the video that started this thread suggests.

How much of this history of Al Queda isn't rewritten to give the name to any terrorist activities taken on by Osama bin Laden?

Can any articles be produced that separates Al Qaeda from Osama bin Laden? If they cannot, then you must accept that the creation of Al Qaeda as a legal entity with which to charge bin Laden is a very reasonable possibility.

can their claim be some what accurate?

Absolutely not.

Hmmm, using Wikipedia to prove a fact :rolleyes: ... very, very dubious.

On the other hand. Al-Qaeda has been around for a lot longer than the video that started this thread suggests.
Given the quality of references in the articles, this is an acceptable use of wikipedia to prove a fact. It's quick and dirty, but it's completely acceptable.

The Nazis had a centralized government as their command structure. As I said before, A-Q's decentralized command structure makes it that much harder to eliminate than a centralized government.

If you kill enough of them, they will stop.

This isn't a matter of beliefs, it's a matter of conspiracy nuts spreading propaganda during war time.

of the nature that al-queada are a unique type of terrorist organisation that have no centralised command and exist just to train people in explosives etc and let them loose with no specific instructions? therefore conventional anti-terror tactics will be useless.

how is stating this a fifth column?

its amazing how dangerous thinking is to the US right sometimes...

Whatever it once was, today it's first and foremost an idea, perhaps a franchise. It's a network of people from everywhere, from all walks of life, and with all sorts of reasons for their beliefs, who are able to support each other in their sick goals, using the internet.

No more, no less.

Which also makes any planes and bombs to fight it rather pointless.

Good answer. When you kill a group like this's leadership, all that happens is someone else takes their place.

All men are not equal leaders. Replacing 75% of any organisations top brass with their underlings would at the very least harm efficiency. It is also unlikely that the best and brightest up-and-coming leaders were held in reserve pending the death and capture of the former leaders. Im not by any means alleging that an organisation becomes unviable and dies because of the loss of leaders. I am saying that the mere existance of warm bodies to take these leaders places does not automatically put AlQuaeda at full planning strength nor make the command chain whole and effective.

All men are not equal leaders. Replacing 75% of any organisations top brass with their underlings would at the very least harm efficiency. It is also unlikely that the best and brightest up-and-coming leaders were held in reserve pending the death and capture of the former leaders. Im not by any means alleging that an organisation becomes unviable and dies because of the loss of leaders. I am saying that the mere existance of warm bodies to take these leaders places does not automatically put AlQuaeda at full planning strength nor make the command chain whole and effective.

but the point is there is no, and never was, a command chain.

they are a new and unique phenomenon

It fits, but...I'm not sure. I'll keep thinking it exists.

People should have the right to say their ideas and beliefs, no matter how ignorant it seems, or how wrong or right they may be.

People constantly excercise the right to post incorrect misleading and downright ignorant mistruths here. It is a veritable Artesian well of misinformation. Fortunately others have the right or even obligation to quickly point out bullshit when they see it, and also to prove that the material which is posing as truth or opinion is indeed bullshit.

That then is the natural order of threads. It involves true freedom of speech wherin the bullshitter and the poster who calls him on it both get to say their piece. If we let you stop people from replying to bullshitters then we lose both truth and freedom of speech. We also lose any semblance of discussion. Instead we get soliloquies by fertilizer spreaders.

So in closing Id like to say that the absolute worst way to spread freedom of speech is by attempting to shut people up because you dont like what they have to say. I patiently await your rebuttal

but the point is there is no, and never was, a command chain.

they are a new and unique phenomenon

Al Quaeda or Command chains?