NationStates Jolt Archive


Building a less agressive rat ... or maybe human???

Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 13:48
COMMENTARY: A decades-long experiment in Russia has indicated that the domestication of mammals resulted from selection for "tameness." AND, there are indications that humans may have self-domesticated as well! The search is on for the gene(s) which control aggressive and tame behavior.

Your thoughts?


Nice Rats, Nasty Rats: Maybe It’s All in the Genes (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin)


By NICHOLAS WADE
Published: July 25, 2006
On an animal-breeding farm in Siberia are cages housing two colonies of rats. In one colony, the rats have been bred for tameness in the hope of mimicking the mysterious process by which Neolithic farmers first domesticated an animal still kept today. When a visitor enters the room where the tame rats are kept, they poke their snouts through the bars to be petted.

The other colony of rats has been bred from exactly the same stock, but for aggressiveness instead. These animals are ferocious. When a visitor appears, the rats hurl themselves screaming toward their bars.

“Imagine the most evil supervillain and the nicest, sweetest cartoon animal, and that’s what these two strains of rat are like,” said Tecumseh Fitch, an animal behavior expert at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland who several years ago visited the rats at the farm, about six miles from Akademgorodok, near the Siberian city of Novosibirsk. Frank Albert, a graduate student at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, is working with both the tame and the hyperaggressive Siberian strains in the hope of understanding the genetic basis of their behavioral differences.

“The ferocious rats cannot be handled,” Mr. Albert said. “They will not tolerate it. They go totally crazy if you try to pick them up.”

When the aggressive rats have to be moved, Mr. Albert places two cages side by side with the doors open and lets the rats change cages by themselves. He is taking care that they do not escape to the sewers of Leipzig, he said.

The two strains of rat are part of a remarkable experiment started in the former Soviet Union in 1959 by Dmitri K. Belyaev. Belyaev and his brother were geneticists who believed in Mendelian theory despite the domination of Soviet science by Trofim Lysenko, who rejected Mendelian genetics.

Belyaev’s brother was exiled to a concentration camp, where he died, but Belyaev was able to move to Siberia in 1958 and became director of the Institute of Cytology and Genetics in Novosibirsk. There he was able to study genetics in relative freedom, according to a report prepared by Dr. Fitch after a visit to the institute in 2002.

Belyaev decided to study the genetics of domestication, a problem to which Darwin gave deep attention. Domesticated animals differ in many ways from their wild counterparts, and it has never been clear just which qualities were selected for by the Neolithic farmers who developed most major farm species some 10,000 years ago.

Belyaev’s hypothesis was that all domesticated species had been selected for a single criterion: tameness. This quality, in his view, had dragged along with it most of the other features that distinguish domestic animals from their wild forebears, like droopy ears, patches of white in the fur and changes in skull shape.

Belyaev chose to test his theory on the silver fox, a variant of the common red fox, because it is a social animal and is related to the dog. Though fur farmers had kept silver foxes for about 50 years, the foxes remained quite wild. Belyaev began his experiment in 1959 with 130 farm-bred silver foxes, using their tolerance of human contact as the sole criterion for choosing the parents of the next generation.

“The audacity of this experiment is difficult to overestimate,” Dr. Fitch has written. “The selection process on dogs, horses, cattle or other species had occurred, mostly unconsciously, over thousands of years, and the idea that Belyaev’s experiment might succeed in a human lifetime must have seemed bold indeed.”

In fact, after only eight generations, foxes that would tolerate human presence became common in Belyaev’s stock. Belyaev died in 1985, but his experiment was continued by his successor, Lyudmila N. Trut. The experiment did not become widely known outside Russia until 1999, when Dr. Trut published an article in American Scientist. She reported that after 40 years of the experiment, and the breeding of 45,000 foxes, a group of animals had emerged that were as tame and as eager to please as a dog.

As Belyaev had predicted, other changes appeared along with the tameness, even though they had not been selected for. The tame silver foxes had begun to show white patches on their fur, floppy ears, rolled tails and smaller skulls.

The tame foxes, Dr. Fitch reported, were also “incredibly endearing.” They were clean and quiet and made excellent house pets, though — being highly active — they preferred a house with a yard to an apartment. They did not like leashes, though they tolerated them.

American researchers have suggested that the foxes be made available as pets, partly to ensure their survival should the Novosibirsk colony be wiped out by disease.

[ This article is two pages long. Read the rest of the article. ] (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=th)
Bottle
25-07-2006, 13:55
COMMENTARY: A decades-long experiment in Russia has indicated that the domestication of mammals resulted from selection for "tameness." AND, there are indications that humans may have self-domesticated as well! The search is on for the gene(s) which control aggressive and tame behavior.

Oddly enough, this very morning I was reading an article about how domestication and "taming" are linked with many other physiological changes, like changes in size, bone structure, rate of sexual maturation, and even skin/coat pigment.

I'm pretty sure there's not a "tameness gene," because the complex pattern of behaviors that comprise "tameness" are not going to all be governed by one gene. However, there could be a gene that regulates the initiation of a signaling cascade or something like that. The problem is, that gene (and the signaling cascade) will probably impact a whole lot of other things along with "tameness." So then we'll be left trying to figure out how we might be able to regulate "tameness" without fucking up the formation of the skull, or the pigmentation of the retina, or things like that.
Dishonorable Scum
25-07-2006, 14:00
Oh boy! Where can I get some of those evil super-villain rats? :cool:
Ieuano
25-07-2006, 14:01
Oh boy! Where can I get some of those evil super-villain rats? :cool:

In Soviet Russia, the supervillain rats want you!
Neo Undelia
25-07-2006, 14:03
Seems like common sense to me.
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:05
Oddly enough, this very morning I was reading an article about how domestication and "taming" are linked with many other physiological changes, like changes in size, bone structure, rate of sexual maturation, and even skin/coat pigment.

I'm pretty sure there's not a "tameness gene," because the complex pattern of behaviors that comprise "tameness" are not going to all be governed by one gene. However, there could be a gene that regulates the initiation of a signaling cascade or something like that. The problem is, that gene (and the signaling cascade) will probably impact a whole lot of other things along with "tameness." So then we'll be left trying to figure out how we might be able to regulate "tameness" without fucking up the formation of the skull, or the pigmentation of the retina, or things like that.
Yes. As best I can tell, the genome is one of the most complex structures in nature. It reminds of a bit of those carnival games where a large number of strings hang down in front of the player, and he tries to guess which string leads to some trinket he wants.
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:06
Oh boy! Where can I get some of those evil super-villain rats? :cool:
LOL! You can't, thank God! Can you imagine what would happen if they got out into the environment? Then again, their genes would eventually be absorbed by the rat population as a whole, and be negated ... I hope! :)
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:07
In Soviet Russia, the supervillain rats want you!
When can we expect the first Rat Emperor? :p
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:08
Seems like common sense to me.
The generations of farmers who bred the horse, cow, dog, etc., obviously didn't have a degree in genetic engineering. :)
Ieuano
25-07-2006, 14:09
LOL! You can't, thank God! Can you imagine what would happen if they got out into the environment? Then again, their genes would eventually be absorbed by the rat population as a whole, and be negated ... I hope! :)

That may not happen, the supervillain rats could just munch on the other rats and only breed with other supervillain rats causing the overthrowal of Leipzig into The Rats Republic of Rat-topia or RRR for short
Ieuano
25-07-2006, 14:10
When can we expect the first Rat Emperor? :p

next tuesday, 3pm :)
Demented Hamsters
25-07-2006, 14:13
The tame silver foxes had begun to show white patches on their fur, floppy ears, rolled tails and smaller skulls.
Does this mean that if I want a tame, domesticated g/f, I should be on the lookout for a girl with droopy ears, small skull and white patches?

Not sure where the rolled tail comes in, though.

Perhaps only for males.
Neo Undelia
25-07-2006, 14:15
The generations of farmers who bred the horse, cow, dog, etc., obviously didn't have a degree in genetic engineering. :)
And really, why would they? As long as people have been of our current intelligence, I’m sure they kept records of their families, even if they were just oral, and observed that among human beings ‘twas generally father like son. Makes sense to apply that to other living things.
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:21
That may not happen, the supervillain rats could just munch on the other rats and only breed with other supervillain rats causing the overthrowal of Leipzig into The Rats Republic of Rat-topia or RRR for short
It's a rat revolution! Run for your lives!! :eek:
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:22
next tuesday, 3pm :)
[ tries to corner the market on rat poison! ] :D
Ieuano
25-07-2006, 14:22
It's a rat revolution! Run for your lives!! :eek:

calm down, call the guys with the rat poison and everything will be good again
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:23
Does this mean that if I want a tame, domesticated g/f, I should be on the lookout for a girl with droopy ears, small skull and white patches?

Not sure where the rolled tail comes in, though.

Perhaps only for males.
WTF, over? Why would anyone want a "tame, domesticated g/f?" I want one that's wild as hell! :D
Hamilay
25-07-2006, 14:24
calm down, call the guys with the rat poison and everything will be good again

Too late. They've already infiltrated our society *cough*JohnnyHoward*cough*
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:24
And really, why would they? As long as people have been of our current intelligence, I’m sure they kept records of their families, even if they were just oral, and observed that among human beings ‘twas generally father like son. Makes sense to apply that to other living things.
Which is the point made later on in that article ... kinda, sorta. :)
Bottle
25-07-2006, 14:24
WTF, over? Why would anyone want a "tame, domesticated g/f?" I want one that's wild as hell! :D
No joke! Remind me to reject any flop-eared women who hit on me.
Ieuano
25-07-2006, 14:25
Too late. They've already infiltrated our society *cough*JohnnyHoward*cough*

:eek: FLEE
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:25
calm down, call the guys with the rat poison and everything will be good again
Oh. Whew! For a minute there I could almost feel their little feet and their little teeth! :eek:
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:26
No joke! Remind me to reject any flop-eared women who hit on me.
ROFLMFAO!!! :D
Lunatic Goofballs
25-07-2006, 14:26
I, for one, welcome our new rat overlords. :)
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:26
Too late. They've already infiltrated our society *cough*JohnnyHoward*cough*
:eek:
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 14:27
I, for one, welcome our new rat overlords. :)
YOU would! :p
Bottle
25-07-2006, 14:28
I, for one, welcome our new rat overlords. :)
You remember back when the South African Supreme Court ruled that gay marriage was okay? (Maybe you don't, but they did.) At the time, I thought to myself, "What a world I live in. A nation that carried apartheid into the 1990s is now more progressive than the United States. Whodathunkit."

Now I'm getting the same kind of feeling, as I contemplate a world in which rats--the most reviled of filthy pests--are more civilized than humans.
Lunatic Goofballs
25-07-2006, 14:40
YOU would! :p

They can't be any worse than the rats already in power. :D
Dishonorable Scum
25-07-2006, 14:44
When can we expect the first Rat Emperor? :p
It's been covered up for a long time, but the truth can finally be revealed. Thirty years ago, a hundred of these evil super-genius rats escaped, and a young KGB agent was sent to track them down. The rats tracked him down first, though, and captured him. Then, in a bizarre and technically impossible process, they removed the KGB agent's brain and replaced it with all 100 of their own brains. They took on the KGB agent's identity, which provided them with the perfect cover while they formulated their diabolical plan for world domination.

The name of this unfortunate former KGB agent? Vladimir Putin. :p

(with apologies to Kim Stanley Robinson)
German Nightmare
25-07-2006, 14:49
Ah huh.

That would explain those two: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/brain.gif http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/pinky.gif
Jon the Free
25-07-2006, 15:43
I think it's interesting with what speed the animals seem to develop the traits that make them more compatable with humans. I found this especially interesting in the foxes. I wonder if this same process could eb used to domesticate something larger, like, say a full sized wolf, or perhaps a species of large carnivorous cat ... Guard panther anyone?
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 15:47
I think it's interesting with what speed the animals seem to develop the traits that make them more compatable with humans. I found this especially interesting in the foxes. I wonder if this same process could eb used to domesticate something larger, like, say a full sized wolf, or perhaps a species of large carnivorous cat ... Guard panther anyone?
Man! That would be sooo kewl! :D
Eutrusca
25-07-2006, 15:48
They can't be any worse than the rats already in power. :D
LMAO! True, true. :D
Dishonorable Scum
25-07-2006, 17:04
I think it's interesting with what speed the animals seem to develop the traits that make them more compatable with humans. I found this especially interesting in the foxes. I wonder if this same process could eb used to domesticate something larger, like, say a full sized wolf, or perhaps a species of large carnivorous cat ... Guard panther anyone?
We already have domesticated wolves. We call them "dogs". :p

As for other animals, Jared Diamond laid out the criteria for successful domestication in Guns, Germs and Steel. The most critical factor appears to be that the wild animals must live in a social group with a distinct dominance hierarchy. This allows the humans to step in and place themselves at the top of the hierarchy. Most large cats don't meet this criterion - they're loners, most of the time. Besides, large carnivores are difficult to domesticate, because you never know when they might decide you're food... :p
Dosuun
25-07-2006, 18:10
Am I the only one bothered by the idea of further domesticating humans through breeding? Isn't this like Eugenics?

As for the rats, they've adopted me! My new name is Kwoh Keesh Claclaclaclaclaclacla. I'm the king of rats, there is none higher, sucker MCs can call me...the king of rats.
Dishonorable Scum
25-07-2006, 18:19
Am I the only one bothered by the idea of further domesticating humans through breeding? Isn't this like Eugenics?
The problem with any eugenics program is that human generations are far too long. As a rule, it takes many generations to selectively breed for a given trait. So it would probably take at least a couple of centuries of controlled breeding of a small human population to achieve any desired result. Moral questions aside, who's going to fund a project that takes centuries to produce a result? Eugenics just isn't practical, which is why all eugenics programs have been dismal failures.